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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-03-16

---Logopened Tue Mar 16 00:00:13 2010
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00:41<DanMacK>Hello all
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02:19<CIA-6>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r19431 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt rail_gui.cpp toolbar_gui.cpp): -Codechange: Append rail type speed limit (if set) to rail type selection list, and toolbar title.
02:25<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19432 /trunk/src/misc_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3696] (r19357): crash when the error message 'owned by <town>' was shown
02:30<CIA-6>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r19433 /trunk/src/ (rail.h rail_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: Limit rail clearance earnings to 3/4s of rail build cost, to avoid money making loophole when rail build cost is less than rail removal earnings.
02:32<Yexo>peter1138: shouldn't the rail clearance earnings be a property of the railtype just like the rail build cost?
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02:39<@peter1138>would involving turn it into a cost factor and stuff
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02:43<CIA-6>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r19434 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs): -Add: Add rail speed limit to land area information window.
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04:02<Terkhen>good morning
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05:04<andythenorth>hovercraft should *really* be combined ships and RVs :o
05:04<andythenorth>new vehicle type: 'ground effect'. Or perhaps, 'amphibious'
05:07<@peter1138>how about, no?
05:10<andythenorth>hurr hurr, as they say
05:16<dih>anybody here familiar with ubuntu and backporting? :-p
05:21<@Rubidium>why would you want to become familiar with that?
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05:34<blathijs>dih: Don't ask to ask, just ask! :-)
05:35<@peter1138>that facebook thread is... *boggle*
05:39<andythenorth>peter1138: ha ha, someone else has just asked about hovercraft on land (in the FISH dev thread)
05:39<andythenorth>so it's not just me :)
05:40<andythenorth>you want this travelling in your OTTD towns, right?
05:58<dih>i seem to have issues packporting from lucid to hardy :-D
05:58<dih>using prevu
05:58<Noldo>what are you backporting?
05:58<dih>i want php5.3 in hardy
05:58<dih>backporting from lucid to karmic seems to be working
05:58<Noldo>what was your process?
05:58<dih>i could try to backport the backport :-D
05:59<dih>DIST=hardy prevu-nomangle *.dsc
05:59<dih>i downloaded the php5.3 dsc orig and diff files
05:59<dih>(as downloading on the fly - everytime - took too long)
06:00<@peter1138>pfft, silly ubuntu users
06:00<dih>there were a bunch of issues in dependencies, and i actually hoped prevu would backport them automatically
06:00<dih>peter1138: not 'user' ;-)
06:01<@peter1138>pfft, silly ubuntu
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06:13<dih>prevu sucks
06:13*dih has a look at pbuilder
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06:38*andythenorth ponders
06:38<andythenorth>I've given up the idea of power plants affecting town growth.
06:38<andythenorth>but there must be some way to make them a little more....interesting
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06:41<PeterT>Make them...explode
06:46<andythenorth>PeterT: hmm
06:48<andythenorth>Which is better: "Brewery", "Brewery / Distillery", "Brewery & Distillery"
06:49<andythenorth>(it accepts grain and fruit & vegetables)
06:51<PeterT>you can always change it later
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07:31*andythenorth ponders if power station coal demand should be affected by town population
07:31<andythenorth>probably not
07:33<Noldo>power stations could power more than one town
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07:39<fonsinchen>argh! callbacks for industry acceptance. OMG, I haven't thought of that.
07:40<fonsinchen>In principle there could be an industry that, upon construction doesn't accept any cargo, and at some later point in time starts accepting various things, right?
07:40<fonsinchen>so my global acceptance calculation is broken :(
07:42<Noldo>it's not broken, it just doesn't support industries like that
07:43<fonsinchen>I shouldn't create artificial limitations, though ...
07:47<fonsinchen>Now I remember why I had implemented the global acceptance as moving average inside the tile loop first. I should be able to dig that out again ...
07:55<andythenorth>fonsinchen: yes there could be an industry that does what you describe - or the other way round (stops accepting after a certain date)
07:58<Noldo>or only accepts anything in the summer months?
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08:18*andythenorth just had an extremely evil idea about hydro-electric plants
08:27<dih>pour water on them to make them grow?
08:28<@Rubidium>if you don't bring enough supplies to it it explodes?
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08:29<@Rubidium>would be cool to first accept only construction materials and after a while it's totally finished and starts producing whatever it should produce?
08:33<dih>we have a buildingsight, please bring workers, ladders, buckets, wheel barrows, shovles, bosses, beer
08:33<dih>and money
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08:35<@peter1138>oh, site
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08:53<Eddi|zuHause>it's an interesting idea, the construction site must be supplied with supplies for two years, before it starts producing electricity. but then you are back to the problem of: what exactly is the use of electricity?
08:54<dih>Eddi|zuHause: you could do that with all industries :-P
08:55<dih>so starting a game with no industries would be very interesting....
08:55<__ln__>electricity could be used to power a huge propeller which generates wind for windmills.
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08:56<KenjiE20>great, now I feel like playing TIM again
08:56<Noldo>my thoughs exactly
08:58<dih>tim was awesome
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09:00<fonsinchen>electricity could be required for electric engines to be available
09:00<fonsinchen>but I don't know if that's possible with newgrf
09:00<dih>then you would not want to service the powerplant with an electric train
09:00<dih>just in case one or the other breaks down
09:00<fonsinchen>true, you'd use a diesel train for that.
09:01<dih>but you could allow an ufo to land on your powerplant
09:01<dih>"go find a new source of electricity"
09:01<__ln__>availability of diesel could depend on oil wells
09:02<fonsinchen>maybe electric/diesel/steam engines can have cheaper running costs if you provide electricity/oil/coal
09:03<fonsinchen>or you could make them run slower if you don't
09:03<fonsinchen>but again, I don't know if anything of that is possible within newgrf. I suspect not.
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>what exactly is TIM?
09:05<KenjiE20>The Incredible Machine
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>never heard about that...
09:05<fonsinchen>availability of electricity could also boost production of some other industries.
09:06<@peter1138>simutrans has power lines, heh
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: yes, but there is no sensible way of transporting energy, and industries can only check for presence of a power plant, not what it produces
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09:08<fonsinchen>see, I don't know the newgrf spec very well. Maybe you can make a powerplant spawn some 1-Tile dummy industries when it is running and then have other industries check for those.
09:08<fonsinchen>Could become spammy, though.
09:09<dih>they create a 1 tile e-rail tile :-P
09:09<dih>please integrate that rail in your network
09:09<fonsinchen>more like trafo stations or something
09:10<fonsinchen>trafo == transformer, I think that abbreviation doesn't exist in english
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>"Unterhalten sich zwei 3-jährige: 'Da schau mal, vor dem Trafohäuschen liegt ein Präservativ.' - 'Was ist ein Trafohäuschen?'"
09:12<+glx>KenjiE20: nice game :)
09:13<KenjiE20>very, I probably still have the shareware diskette for it somewhere :)
09:13<Noldo>I found it on an old hardrive few months ago
09:14<Noldo>along with civilization and Whacky Wheel etc.
09:15*KenjiE20 has a Wacky Wheels CD
09:15*KenjiE20 lobs a hedgehog at Noldo
09:15<@Rubidium>oh... the good old games... from 20 years ago
09:16<Noldo>and panzer general
09:16<Noldo>tried to invade norway few times, but failed every time
09:16<+glx>you mean 4D sports drivin'
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>i tried reading a few of the old diskettes... but that's almost hopeless...
09:16<@peter1138>weird, i've got a 'lagging' terminal :s
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09:40<andythenorth>peter1138: if roadtypes existed, could they have a flag to allow them to be 'built' on water?
09:40<andythenorth>no amphibious trucking routes then :)
09:40<andythenorth>no snowline-dependent ice roads either :(
09:41<andythenorth>no fords or causeways :|
09:41*andythenorth back to fooling with power plants
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09:43<andythenorth>bigger ships?
09:44*andythenorth thought not
09:44<Noldo>wouldn't fords be just eye candy anyway as they can not ne crossed by ship?
09:45<@Rubidium>canals being from in winter would be funky :)
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09:45<andythenorth>I've said it before....Ice Roads :)
09:45<Noldo>oh noes
09:45<@Rubidium>ships being stuck for 6 months etc :)
09:46<Noldo>with ice roads you could have cars sinking and then being lifted back up by helicopter
09:46<@Rubidium>yeah, when spring comes vehicles on the ice road 'drown' :)
09:46<andythenorth>it happens
09:47*andythenorth thinks 'freeze up' would be an awesome addition to arctic
09:47<@Rubidium>next: randomising when winter begins and ends
09:47<andythenorth>eye candy brilliance, but would totally screw with routing
09:47<andythenorth>we'd need 'seasonal' timetables :)
09:47<Noldo>if there is ice there would have to be ice brakers
09:48<andythenorth>I could supply icebreakers
09:52*andythenorth has some kind of 'solution' for power plants
09:52<andythenorth>but a to calculate MWh?
09:52<andythenorth>assuming coal or fuel oil in
09:53<Noldo>just use arbitary factor
09:54<andythenorth>Rubidium: win, thanks
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09:55<andythenorth>1/3 of a ton of coal to power one lightbulb for a year?
09:55*andythenorth turns off some lights :|
09:56<Eddi|zuHause>you don't have the lights running the entire day, though...
09:57<andythenorth>I have the laptop running the entire day though :o
09:58<Eddi|zuHause>assuming a light runs 3 of 24 hours, that's 1/24 ton of coal
09:58<@Rubidium>for a 100 watt lamp; the dieing kind
09:58*andythenorth ponders solar panels
09:59<fonsinchen>coal by itself doesn't contain thermal energy, though. It contains chemical energy. Thermal energy would mean the coal is warmer than its surroundings.
09:59*fonsinchen nitpicks
09:59*andythenorth 39 degrees C on our solar thermal heating panel today
10:00<andythenorth>'free free free'. except the cost of the panel :|
10:00<Eddi|zuHause>also, they count that the not-converted heat energy isn't used otherwise, while usually it's used for heating...
10:00<Eddi|zuHause>so the figure is highly questionable...
10:00<andythenorth>so for power plants, shall I just make a number up :_
10:01<fonsinchen>for each ton of coal you deliver to a power plant you could cut a tree somewhere and make the town it belongs to a little angry
10:02<@peter1138>how much does a thermal heating panel cost anyway?
10:02<@peter1138>it's just a bunch of tubes, n'est pas?
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>you can build one yourself
10:03<andythenorth>peter1138: think it was about £7k fitted with a heating system (tank, regulators etc)
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>take a wood box, paint it black, add plexiglass, and put a tube in it
10:03<fonsinchen>I've actually done that. It was a pain though and it only worked on very hot days
10:03<fonsinchen>(and it was connected to a shower, which made it completely pointless)
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>commercially sold heating panels probably refinance themselves in about 20-30 years
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10:14<dydt>good morning all, working on an isometric map editor and was wondering if anyone had a link to or tool that can extract ttd's texture data? Just wanna use it for testing and debugging purposes, I have been using some of the new artwork made for openttd and it fits very nicely in my editor for testing :)
10:14<@Rubidium>search for grfcodec
10:14<dydt>will do, tyvm
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10:25<dydt>Rubidium: worked perfect
10:25<dydt>have a good day all, time for class
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10:31*andythenorth ponders posting something to flyspray
10:40<andythenorth>tycoons: is it any of our business how much coal a power plant needs?
10:40<andythenorth>They're paying for it, they must need it....
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10:50<Sacro>andythenorth: use a newgrf
10:51<andythenorth>Sacro: :P
10:52<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it sounds like you're back and forth with stockpile limits
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10:53<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: nah, I'm pretty set on not having them.
10:53<andythenorth>players don't seem to like them
10:54<andythenorth>I'll just end up in parameter hell for people who want to change / remove them. Then 'bug report' hell and 'debug' hell also come to that party
10:55<andythenorth>I'm getting good solutions now, the tricky thing is balancing:
10:55<andythenorth>(a) 'instant' production when cargo is delivered
10:55<andythenorth>(b) not closing industries
10:56<andythenorth>(c) possibility for insane amounts of cargo delivery
10:56<andythenorth>(d) nice features like combinatory cargos
10:56<andythenorth>I think I'll have it nailed soon though :D
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12:03*andythenorth is trying to understand what causes industries to close
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12:07<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19435 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_commons.cpp newgrf_commons.h saveload/town_sl.cpp): -Fix: when loading a savegame created with a house newgrf without that newgrf available all houses became tall office blocks
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12:17<andythenorth>George: some ECS industries have a 5 year grace period before they close? Does that work well? I may try using the same number for FIRS...
12:18<George>andythenorth: Yes, it does, in beta 6.
12:18<andythenorth>what do players think of it?
12:18<George>In beta 5 there is a bug that increases closure probability dramatically
12:19<George>andythenorth: they have no closure parameters
12:19<George>Every one has a thing he likes
12:19<andythenorth>so for 5 years, closure probability == 0? Then >5 years probability of closure is what? 3%
12:19<George>Who likes challenge - use param 0
12:19<George>who not - other
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>George: have you thought about reordering the parameters so the "general behaviour" parameter is always first for all grfs?
12:20<George>// set IR0[0]b3-7 to 25 with 1% probability
12:20<George> 501 * 38 02 0A 60 89
12:20<George> 1A 20 C8 00 00 00 \2+
12:20<George> 7C 00 20 07 FF FF FF 10
12:20<George> 1A 00 00 00 00 00
12:20<George> 01 6F 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 6F 00
12:20<George> 502 * 17 02 0A 50 85 18 10 FF FF 01 60 00 00 00 8F 02 71 00
12:20<George> 503 * 17 02 0A 51 85 18 10 FF FF 01 60 00 00 00 47 01 71 00
12:20<George> 504 * 17 02 0A 52 85 18 10 FF FF 01 60 00 00 00 A3 00 71 00
12:20<George> 505 * 17 02 0A 53 85 18 10 FF FF 01 60 00 00 00 51 00 71 00
12:20<George> 506 * 17 02 0A 54 85 18 10 FF FF 01 60 00 00 00 28 00 71 00
12:20<George> 507 * 17 02 0A 55 85 18 10 FF FF 01 60 00 00 00 14 00 71 00
12:20<George> 508 * 17 02 0A 56 85 18 10 FF FF 01 60 00 00 00 0A 00 71 00
12:20<George> 509 * 35 02 0A 61 81 7F 0A 00 FF 06
12:20<George> 51 00 05 05
12:20<George> 52 00 06 06
12:20<George> 53 00 07 07
12:20<George> 54 00 08 08
12:20<George> 55 00 09 09
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>George:, please
12:20<George> 56 00 0A 0A
12:20<George> 50 00
12:20<__ln__>doing it wrong
12:21<andythenorth>looks pretty though :)
12:21<George>Eddi|zuHause: Yes I did. I would do it only with GRFID change
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>George: and beta 6 wasn't reason enough for a GRFID change?
12:22<George>Eddi|zuHause: No. It is a minor fix
12:22<Eddi|zuHause>George: besides all the gameplay hassles, that's the worst thing about setting up a game with ECS...
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>something less major: put the order of the parameters in the grf description?
12:23<George>Eddi|zuHause: I know. May be I'll change it on 1.0-RC1
12:23<@peter1138>heh, that probably counts as "documented nfo" :s
12:24<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: well, it does have a comment :p
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12:34<andythenorth>industry prop 0B - value 2 will produce "Standard processing-industry closing-behaviour" - but what is that?
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>the default industry closure? i never understood how that worked...
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>weird... i have two recordings of Pirates of the Caribbean 3, the first one is missing the end scene, but is overall 5 minutes longer...
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12:41<Yexo>"Standard processing-industry closing-behaviour" = the industry will only close 5 years after the last year it produced anything
12:43<andythenorth>Yexo: thanks. Does cargo have to be transported, or just produced?
12:43<Yexo>just produced
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>is that why power stations have the no-closure flag?
12:44*andythenorth is puzzled. Last year several players reported unexpected industry closure
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12:45<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: that's a likely explanation
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12:45<Yexo>power plants are not the only industry that doesn't close though, same goes for banks, the water tower and the toy shop
12:46<andythenorth>I've started reading the code, but I can't make sense of it yet
12:46<andythenorth>I need to decide whether to provide custom closure code in FIRS (= more work)
12:47<andythenorth>all I'd do is prevent secondary industry closure for five years if cargo is delivered. Nearly the same as what the game appears to do anyway.
12:49<Yexo>if you make sure the industry produces "something" every time cargo is delivered then it's the same as the game does already
12:50*andythenorth is glum about player bug reports
12:50*andythenorth has an idea
12:50<andythenorth>Release a stable version! Then see what reproducible bug reports turn up :)
12:50*andythenorth doesn't write any closure code
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: i'm sure in TTO also forests were no-closure
12:54<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: no idea about that, but in OpenTTD they are not
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13:11<Lapsus>Hello! :3
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13:20<andythenorth>hi hi
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13:32<DJNekkid>does anyone know anything about the patch peter1138 mentions in the NuTracks set? Is it commited, or is it about to be?
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13:35*andythenorth thinks that showing the MWh for a power station is overkill
13:38<Yexo>DJNekkid: committed this morning
13:38<Yexo>@commit r19431
13:38<@DorpsGek>Yexo: Invalid arguments for _commit.
13:38<Yexo>@commit 19431
13:38<@DorpsGek>Yexo: Commit by peter1138 :: r19431 /trunk/src (3 files in 2 dirs) (2010-03-16 06:18:52 UTC)
13:38<@DorpsGek>Yexo: -Codechange: Append rail type speed limit (if set) to rail type selection list, and toolbar title.
13:41<DJNekkid>thanx Yexo :)
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13:42<andythenorth>How does this sound: "Power Station has been using reserves for more than five years and may close soon!"
13:43<DJNekkid>realistic? :P
13:43<andythenorth>Do we care?
13:47<Jolteon>andythenorth: Power stations usually only have enough reserve to last about a month, if that.
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13:47<andythenorth>Ah, I think I refer you to the man who said "it's only a game :)"
13:47<Jolteon>a game that gets rapidly more unrealistic with every update :rolleyes:
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13:48<andythenorth>Jolteon: I think it was pretty unrealistic in 1994. I don't think it's got much worse.
13:49*andythenorth looks around at the palette of the real world. Seems to be more than 16 bit :)
13:49*Jolteon marks andythenorth as stupid as everyone else and walks out.
13:49*andythenorth waves :)
13:51<DJNekkid>nightlies are awailable from around 2030 CET?
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13:54<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r19436 /trunk/src/road_cmd.cpp: -Fix: With certain game settings one could clear tiles for free when building long roads.
13:54<fjb>andythenorth: I experienced the closure of served power stations in FIRS r5xx.
13:54<andythenorth>was it just power stations?
13:55<andythenorth>I think they may have been defined incorrectly
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13:55<fjb>I remember power station, not sure if there was one other industry.
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13:56<andythenorth>fjb: thanks for the info
13:56<fjb>Oh, yes, served Arable Farm also.
13:57<andythenorth>Think that was incorrectly defined as a processing industry
13:57<andythenorth>so that might explain closure
13:58<andythenorth>fjb: sure it wasn't a Dairy Farm?
13:59<andythenorth>oh :o
14:01<andythenorth>thought it was easily explained, but it's not
14:01<fjb>Maybe I didn't serve it well enough.
14:02<andythenorth>maybe. Did you deliver Farm Supplies in?
14:03<fjb>No, I didn't. Serves it with No 6 Crwlers.
14:04<andythenorth>If Farm Supplies are not delivered, the game just uses the built in production change behaviour....that can close the industry if service is not good enough I guess
14:04<andythenorth>I didn't want to screw around with that - one step too far...
14:04<andythenorth>If Farm Supplies are regularly delivered, the built-in production change behaviour is turned off.
14:05<fjb>I don't know what happend. I was just gone one day and the crawlers piled up an blocked the road.
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14:06<fjb>I would like to have a tractor in HEQS, like crwler No 6 but with 4 wheels (2 powerd). :-)
14:07<andythenorth>pulling multiple trailers?
14:08<andythenorth>I did intend to add more tractors some time
14:08<fjb>One or two trailers is usual here.
14:08<andythenorth>not soon, but I will do it
14:09<fjb>And in early years something like taht would be cool:
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>what happened to the cargo tram idea?
14:09<andythenorth>ok. At TTD size I think it will just be 'generic tractor' :)
14:09<fjb>I don't mind.
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14:11<fjb>But the crawlers are looking funny in a town.
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>hm... the facepalm smilie: "m("
14:15<andythenorth>mmm....text string colour codes....
14:15*andythenorth reaches for the 'red for danger' code
14:16<andythenorth>hmm. Red sucks in the industry window
14:16<@Rubidium>no, red sox in the town window!
14:17<andythenorth>is that a typo, or has Rubidium gone bonkers?
14:18<@Rubidium>hmm, or actually no
14:18<@Rubidium>I've been bonkers for a long long time already
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14:20<Wolf01>hello :D
14:20<fjb>Hello Wolf01.
14:21<Terkhen>hi Wolf01
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14:37<@Rubidium>does any of the German speaking in this channel know when 'GameStar' featured OpenTTD in their magazine?
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14:38<@Rubidium>I'm thinking somewhere late 2004
14:38*fjb never read Game magazines.
14:38<dih>who reads that?
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14:40<dih>but i doubt they mentioned OpenTTD in 03/98 :-D
14:42<Eddi|zuHause2>hm... that was a clicking sound of the unpleasant kind...
14:44*andythenorth blew up ottd
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14:45-!-Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
14:45<frosch123>[19:41] <Rubidium> I'm thinking somewhere late 2004 <- depends how much you trust them getting the version number right :)
14:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19437 /trunk/src/lang/ (14 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
14:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 2 changes by josesun
14:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: croatian - 2 changes by VoyagerOne
14:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: dutch - 2 changes by habell
14:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
14:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: french - 2 changes by glx
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14:52<Eddi|zuHause>dih: that's a different article
14:53<dih>Eddi|zuHause, it's from 98, it has to be ^^
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14:55<andythenorth>You guys are usually pretty good at helping me with industry window texts...I need some help for the power station. I'll explain what it does
14:56<andythenorth>- accepts coal or fuel oil. Either or both can be supplied
14:56<andythenorth>- reserves are held to keep generating if nothing is delivered
14:56<andythenorth>- reserves last at least five years, during which there is no chance of closure
14:56<andythenorth>- after five years reserves may run out and the industry may close
14:57<andythenorth>there is no production
14:57<andythenorth>I don't want to mention electricity, it will confuse players
14:57<andythenorth>help? :)
14:57<andythenorth>cookie for shortest text using nice words
14:58<@Rubidium>Accepts coals and fuel oil. Does not close within five years of last delivery.
14:58<andythenorth>hey pretty good :)
14:58<andythenorth>Do I need 'coal and/or fuel oil'?
14:58<@Rubidium>Does not close within five years of last coal or fuel oil delivery.
14:58<andythenorth>even better
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15:01<fjb>Is there a way to "encourage" an industry to close down beside ignoring it?
15:02<Yexo>enabling the magic bulldozer and removing it manually
15:03<fjb>That is cheating.
15:03<frosch123>i guess servicing once is better than ignoring
15:03<fjb>Oh, once servicing, then ignoring?
15:04<frosch123>iirc it has a chance of 2/3 to decrease production when bad serviced, compared to 1/2 when not serviced at all
15:04<fjb>It just popped up where my newly build tunnel ended.
15:04<frosch123>but i might as well be totally wrong :p
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15:05<fjb>I'm trusting you. :-)
15:05<frosch123>hmm, i guess i was wrong
15:06<fjb>Oh, then I will not start to serve it.
15:06<fjb>Hope no AI will do it.
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15:08<Ammler>fjb: the border what is cheating, what is advanced tool is floating... ;-)
15:09<fjb>Floating... hm... I should think about drowning that industry. Where are the rivers?
15:12<andythenorth>fjb: I was thinking of a 'bomb' cargo which if delivered , would trigger closure. It could be done
15:12<andythenorth>would be evil in multiplayer :)
15:13<andythenorth>Could lead to an OTTD version of Bomber Man
15:13<andythenorth>build networks to destroy your opponents industries :o
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15:14<fjb>I would like to destroy this stupid Convoy AI. It never updates its vehicles, very annoying. They break down every few seconds.
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15:29<Zuu>hmm, delphi gives you a bad habit of holding ctrl while pressing the F-key for compilation. In Visual Studio holding ctrl makes it only compile the current file or something, but it never links your application.
15:30<frosch123>how do you need to spell "compilation" to make it contain an "F" ?
15:30<frosch123>err, of you mean something like f9 ?
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15:32<fjb>Using Delphi is a bad habit.
15:32<frosch123>only since 2002 or so
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>too bad there's no sensible linux version...
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>i liked delphi
15:34<fjb>Free Pascal...
15:34<fjb>But many programs made with Delphi run fine in Wine.
15:37<fjb>Ignoring 96 unused extra bytes from the sprite from /nars2w at position 2817120
15:38<andythenorth>hmm...turns out FIRS primary industries can close if the random production change cb selects them for a production change
15:38<andythenorth>I could change that. Should I?
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>yes, random closure is bad...
15:40<andythenorth>easy to disable
15:41<andythenorth>I think this means badly serviced industries may never close though
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>hmm... watching a discussion where each party wants to have the last word is only fun for the first couple times...
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15:42<fjb>Do you read the german forum again?
15:44<Zuu>frosch123: Yep something like F9
15:46*andythenorth thinks that badly serviced primary industries should be protected for five years then have a chance of closure
15:47<fjb>That sounds reasonable.
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15:48<__ln__>wie schreibt man "heuahr" oder etwas?
15:49<__ln__>ach, "heuer" sagt die wörterbuch.
15:49<frosch123>"heuer" as in "this year" ?
15:49<__ln__>ja, genau.
15:49<frosch123>that is quite anitquitary german :p
15:49-!-Frankr [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:51<__ln__>used in the south and in austria i was told
15:51<frosch123>yup, antique :p
15:52<frosch123>you speak like that if you haven't left you village for 100 years
15:54-!-ptr [] has joined #openttd
15:55<__ln__>the other word learned today: oberfläche
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>the majority of germans don't live in the south :)
15:58-!-Aali [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:58<fjb>The majority of germans live south of __ln__. :-)
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: the problem with "heuer" is not that it's only used in the south, it's that it will likely be misunderstood by people not living in the south as "heute"
16:01<__ln__>fjb: so true :)
16:16<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19438 /trunk/src/group_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3700]: Custom group names are misaligned with default ones when using rtl languages (sbr)
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16:25<enr1x>__ln__: what's an oberfläshe?
16:29<andythenorth>frosch123: can persistent storage handle signed values?
16:30<frosch123>it does not care about signedness, it is up to you to use the signed or unsigned advact2 operators
16:31<andythenorth>so if I want to store -6 as a value, that would work?
16:31<andythenorth>sorry for dumb questions
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you know what a 2-complement is?
16:31<frosch123>storing is no problem, the question is what happens if you read it :)
16:32<andythenorth>I can think of one way to find out if it works....
16:32<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: the rule you need to give your wife 2 compliments a day to keep your marriage?
16:33<andythenorth>what is -6 in hex :|
16:33<frosch123>e.g. the shifting of varadjust are always unsigned
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>andy what is 0x100-6?
16:34<frosch123>more like 0x1000....00000...0000 - 6
16:34<andythenorth>if it's a dword I'm using, I think I need ffffff9
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: that can be sign-extended :)
16:34<andythenorth>but if I knew what I was doing I wouldn't ask for help :D
16:35<frosch123>i guess replace the 9 by a
16:35<frosch123>@base 10 16 -6
16:35<@DorpsGek>frosch123: -6
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>i guess it's missing an f
16:35<frosch123>@base 10 16 (0x100000000 - 6)
16:35<@DorpsGek>frosch123: base <fromBase> [<toBase>] <number>
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>@base 10 16 250
16:35<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: FA
16:35<andythenorth>I was counting on my fingers :O
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, you just calculate 2^n-x for the lowest n that works, and then add F's until your bitwidth is full
16:45*andythenorth blew up ottd
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>you do that often lately...
16:53<andythenorth>putting an invalid text code in a string is a pretty reliable cause I'm guessing
16:54<andythenorth>anyway, advanced varaction 2 with signs
16:54<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19439 /branches/1.0/src/ (11 files in 3 dirs): (log message trimmed)
16:54<CIA-6>OpenTTD: [1.0] -Backport from trunk:
16:54<CIA-6>OpenTTD: - Fix: Custom group names are misaligned with default ones when using rtl languages [FS#3700] (r19438)
16:54<CIA-6>OpenTTD: - Fix: With certain game settings one could clear tiles for free when building long roads (r19436)
16:54<CIA-6>OpenTTD: - Fix: When loading a savegame created with a house NewGRF without that NewGRF available all houses became tall office blocks (r19435)
16:54<CIA-6>OpenTTD: - Fix: Limit rail clearance earnings to 3/4s of rail build cost, to avoid money making loophole when rail build cost is less than rail removal earnings (r19433)
16:54<CIA-6>OpenTTD: - Fix: Crash when the error message 'owned by <town>' was shown [FS#3696] (r19432)
16:54<andythenorth>I want to use operator 00 (\2+) to add +1 to -ve doesn't seem to work
16:54<andythenorth>lost in commits :|
16:55<andythenorth>operator 00 doesn't seem to work if val 1 is signed
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16:56<Eddi|zuHause>it shouldn't matter to + whether the values are signed or not, that's the fun with 2-complement
16:56<frosch123>andythenorth: how do you read the "-ve", and what do you do with the result?
16:56-!-Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:56<andythenorth> 1A 20 \d01 //create value 1
16:56<andythenorth> \2+ 7C 00 20 \dxFFFFFFFF //add to 'delivery ticker' store
16:56<andythenorth> 10 1A 00 \dx00 // store in persistent storage
16:57<andythenorth>do I need some mask magic?
16:57<frosch123>that code should work
17:00<andythenorth>frosch123: actually it does
17:01<andythenorth>something is screwy somewhere else
17:01<andythenorth>monthly production change cb normally runs at end of calendar month right?
17:02<frosch123>well, ok, inbetween
17:03<frosch123>but it is already the 1st
17:04*andythenorth thinks all is well
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17:07<Nite_Owl>Hello all
17:10<Ammler>oh, does changing Musicset ingame also glitch like graphic set?
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>what do you mean with "glitch"?
17:19<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: if so start modifying the tar where the GRFs are in then OpenTTD might not quite like you anymore
17:21<@Rubidium>Ammler: on Windows you might notice that 'make install' doesn't work
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17:28<De_Ghosty>make so work
17:28<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: the reason, it isn't possible to change base set ingame, afaik.
17:29<Ammler>Rubidium: refering to OpenGFX Makefile?
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: i somehow have a different concept of "glitch" because "it's forbidden" does not fall under that...
17:31-!-ajmiles [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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17:32<Ammler>why should it be forbidden?
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17:33<Turilas>Hi all
17:33<PeterT>Hello Turilas
17:36<@Rubidium>hi Turilas
17:36<Nite_Owl>Hello Turilas
17:36<@Rubidium>Ammler: because it is broken for at least graphics and sounds. Making it behave differently for music means inconsistency and the consistency freaks filing bug reports
17:38<@Belugas>who said music?
17:38<@Belugas>i love music
17:38<@Belugas>i love freaks
17:38<@Belugas>I am a freak of music
17:38<Ammler>music is something you might like to change while playing... :-)
17:38<@Belugas>i'm tired... i'm going home
17:38<@Belugas>i'm playing music
17:38<@Belugas>i rarely change my music
17:39<@Belugas>it's MY MUSIC!
17:39*Belugas is REALLY tired
17:39<Ammler>you should commit you midi :-P
17:39<@Rubidium>but... it's 20 minutes earlier than normal!
17:39<@Rubidium>night Belugas :)
17:39<@Belugas>i ain't got midis... i do mp3s/waves ;)
17:39<@Belugas>it's fucking late!!!!
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17:40<Nite_Owl>later Belugas
17:40<Nite_Owl>DST is in effect on this side of the pond
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17:48<fjb>Hm, "wagon removal" is global for all groups. :-(
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19:02<Eddi|zuHause>the author of opentracker makes holiday in "Torrent Bay" (
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19:15<SmatZ>hello Priski
19:16<Priski>hello there
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19:25*andythenorth considers something evil to do with powerplants closing
19:26-!-Tennel [~Tennel@] has quit [Quit: WeeChat]
19:27<Eddi|zuHause>let them explode and take half the town with them!
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19:28<andythenorth>more like make all industries require at least one powerplant on the map to produce cargo
19:29<Eddi|zuHause>what happened to "must have a power plant nearby"?
19:29<andythenorth>that as well for some industries
19:30<andythenorth>if the last powerplant production :D
19:30<Eddi|zuHause>but having both requirements is kind of redundant...
19:30<Eddi|zuHause>plus, isn't the last industry of a kind protected from closing?
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19:31<andythenorth>I think I'll leave the evil stuff to Pikka
19:31<Jolteon>Does the Toyland to Mars GRF work on OpenTTD?
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19:32<Yexo><Eddi|zuHause> plus, isn't the last industry of a kind protected from closing? <- newgrfs can disable that
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19:35<fjb>andythenorth: Will FISH get oil-tankers which look like oil-tankers?
19:35<andythenorth>when I draw them, yes
19:35<andythenorth>might be a while
19:36<andythenorth>they'll be refits on the existing ships to keep things simple
19:36<fjb>Yes, but that looks strange.
19:37-!-Chris_Booth is now known as Booth
19:38<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: when i tried FISH, i was kinda missing a small passenger ferry, a "car ferry" looked a little odd...
19:38<andythenorth>fjb: I did some research on ships. For the size of ships in FISH, it's not uncommon to refit to tankers
19:38<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: there'll be ferries later
19:38<andythenorth>as in, when I draw them :)
19:39<andythenorth>the only thing that bothers me about the tanker refit is that it should cost more than a 'normal' refit
19:39<andythenorth>but that isn't possible.
19:39<fjb>How about sailing ships, steam boats, old style ship... :-)
19:39<Eddi|zuHause>refit costs really should depend on previous cargo type and new cargo type...
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19:40<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: Agreed.
19:40<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I agree, but sounds complicated - for players and coders :)
19:41<andythenorth>fjb: all of those older ships are planned
19:41<andythenorth>I need more arms to draw and code with :o
19:41<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it should be cheap to refit from coal to ore, but it should be expensive to refit from oil to milk...
19:41<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: if you'd like to extend nfo spec to make that possible....I'll implement it in FISH :)
19:42<Eddi|zuHause>am i now the go to guy for "miscellaneous newgrf features"? first pikka wants cb36 for aircraft capacity, then mb wants track maintenance, and you want refit costs...
19:42<fjb>And cost nothing to refit from wool to cotton. :-)
19:43<fjb>Ships with different kinds of cargo at the same time would also be nice.
19:44<andythenorth>fjb: agreed
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19:45<Eddi|zuHause>a "container" vehicle type that can be transferred from trains to ships
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19:46<andythenorth>I could do tankers separately for FISH, but with my current plans there will be about 28 vehicles in the buy menu for most of the 20th century. Separate tankers would add another 6 or so
19:47<fjb>6 more istn't that bad when there are 20 any way. :-)
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19:49<Eddi|zuHause>suggestion: a dropdown for vehicle categories similar to the station categories
19:50<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: exists already doesn't it?
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19:50<andythenorth>drop down for cargo refit?
19:50<Eddi|zuHause>then vehicle sets could sort their vehicles in "slow"/"fast", "steam"/"electric", "small"/"large" or "freight"/"passenger"
19:50<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: no, i mean newgrf-definable categories
19:51<andythenorth>sounds a bit like my suggestion for arbitrary labels?
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19:53<Eddi|zuHause>possibly, but they should have no meaning.
19:53<andythenorth>ah, I see what you mean
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19:54<andythenorth>tbh, I find the station GUI really annoying to use
19:54<andythenorth>anyway, time for sleep!
19:57<DaleStan>andythenorth: I see a nforenum whine, but no bug report/change request. Is there one forthcoming?
19:57<andythenorth>DaleStan: where did I whine?
19:58<DaleStan>Not a major whine; possibly not even a whine at all: <andythenorth> oh renum how I love thee / renum doesn't like my use of 0 as a value. solution? use 1...
19:59<andythenorth>I don't know if it counts as a bug or a valid change request. I'll paste the code that causes it
20:00<andythenorth>I could probably suppress it, but the other FIRS authors prefer that I don't for various good reasons
20:00<Eddi|zuHause>i hate the forum... it doesn't display 90% of the images... and i can't find the reason why
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20:05<DaleStan>Ah. yes. I remember that issue. (Actually, part of the plan for NFORenum is to have it catch that too. (Un)fortunately, renum doesn't quite know that 1A is constant.)
20:07<andythenorth>DaleStan: I don't mind the workaround, it's fine
20:07<andythenorth>bed time :)
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22:03<PeterT>Is it true that cargo gets payed for the drop relative to the station sign's location
22:09<@Belugas>i guess it is
22:09<@Belugas>i guess it's late
22:09<@Belugas>i guess i'll be hitting bed now
22:10<PeterT>Good night, Belugas
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22:20<Eddi|zuHause>a Belugas at this hour? how rare...
22:20<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: at least it used to be the station sign a while ago
22:20<PeterT>In 0.7.5, right?
22:21<Eddi|zuHause>my information is more 0.5-ish :)
22:22<PeterT>Eddi|zuHause: When was that last time you played OpenTTD?
22:22<PeterT>Regularly, I mean
22:22<Eddi|zuHause>what does that have to do with knowing game internals?
22:23<PeterT> all
22:23<PeterT>I was asking randomnly
22:24<Eddi|zuHause>i started a game a few weeks ago, but didn't get far
22:24<Eddi|zuHause>i played a longer game about half a year ago or so
22:24<PeterT>what version?
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22:28<Eddi|zuHause>inhowfar did that information help you now?
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---Logclosed Wed Mar 17 00:00:14 2010