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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-03-17

---Logopened Wed Mar 17 00:00:14 2010
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03:10<ccfreak2k><PeterT> Is it true that cargo gets payed for the drop relative to the station sign's location
03:10<ccfreak2k>It makes the most sense to me.
03:11<ccfreak2k>At least if the algorithm doesn't go into too much detail.
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03:51<dih>good morning
03:56<@Rubidium>oh, it's that time of day again? Ah well, good morning then :)
03:57<dih>hehe - someone did not go to bed last night :-P
03:57<dih>at least that's what it sounds like
03:57<@Rubidium>oh I did :)
03:57<@Rubidium>just hoped it was still night so I could sleep some mor
03:57<@Rubidium>+e
03:58<@peter1138>hmm, somebody broke greek
03:59<@Rubidium>yes, the Greek translator did
04:00-!-Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
04:02<dih>good morning cybertinitus ^^
04:02<@peter1138>clever
04:05<@peter1138>good ol' ben_k
04:05<@peter1138>doesn't grasp that adding gameplay features as singleplayer only is a big no no
04:06<dih>where? forums?
04:07-!-roboboy [996b2199@webchat.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
04:21<roboboy>hello
04:22-!-Terkhen [~Terkhen@48.68.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #openttd
04:22<Terkhen>good morning
04:22<__ln__>quite good
04:23<roboboy>good evening (:
04:25<roboboy>is the unified login for the website handled by an LDAP server?
04:25<roboboy>if not how is it implemented?
04:26<@peter1138>yes
04:27<roboboy>to LDAP?
04:27*Rubidium wonders how hard it is to search for that information
04:29-!-a1270 [~Cheese@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd
04:29*Rubidium thinks roboboy needs a 101 in news searching
04:29<@peter1138>what, first hit on google for 'openttd ldap'? :)
04:33<@peter1138>though that wouldn't help if it had been changed later...
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04:56<dih>now all you need is openttd->ldap auth
04:56<dih>and ldap stores your uniqu id :-P
04:56<dih>perhaps that should be done via a webservice or some other (openttd style) network service
04:56<dih>master....ldap
04:57<dih>client->master master->client master->server
04:58<dih>kick/ban results in server->master ^^
04:58<Noldo>facebook login :]
05:01-!-heffer [~felix@mue-88-130-84-031.dsl.tropolys.de] has joined #openttd
05:02<andythenorth>don't suppose there's a string code for pluralising depending on a value?
05:09<@peter1138>yes
05:09<andythenorth>yes there is or yes there isn't?
05:09<@peter1138>yes there is, heh
05:10<@peter1138>perhaps
05:10<@peter1138>hmm
05:11<@peter1138>at least, in the language files
05:11<@peter1138>don't think it'll work for newgrf text
05:12<__ln__>what, there's something one can't do with newgrf??!?
05:13<@peter1138>well, the plural form may not match the currently selected language's form
05:16<@peter1138>also the codepoint to identify a plural isn't fixed
05:16<@peter1138>it's part of an enum list that could change
05:18-!-Pikka [PikkaBird@CPE-58-173-248-50.szxn1.cha.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd
05:18<andythenorth>I figured it would be tricky to pluralise and have multilingual support :)
05:19<andythenorth>hmm
05:19<andythenorth>the industry window seems slow to update it's text
05:19<andythenorth>its /s
05:20<andythenorth>the monthly production change cb doesn't appear to trigger cb 3A (or a window redraw - I'm guessing one of the two is required)
05:20<andythenorth>Moving the window does trigger the cb / redraw etc
05:21<andythenorth>that is sub-optimal :|
05:21<Pikka>andy: hum
05:22<@peter1138>just the redraw
05:22<andythenorth>that puts the kybosh on my power station :P
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05:24<andythenorth>I could run the production cb...that will trigger the redraw quite soon after the production change cb runs
05:24<andythenorth>nah
05:26<@peter1138>or supply a patch to trigger the redraw
05:26<andythenorth>worthy of a fs entry?
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05:33<andythenorth>is there a string code for the little 'warning' triangle used in the newgrf list window?
05:36<@peter1138>no
05:36<andythenorth>probably for the best
05:44-!-Aali [~aali@h-90-31.A189.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd
05:48<Hirundo>Would it be possible to enable the newgrf text parameter stack for all strings, instead of in a few selected locations?
05:51<Hirundo>It would allow newgrfs to properly display numbers, velocities, etc. without resorting to parameters to e.g. switch between kph/mph (NARS 2)
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05:56<andythenorth>Power Station: improved http://tt-foundry.com/misc/power_station_comp.png
05:57-!-Pikka [PikkaBird@CPE-58-173-248-50.szxn1.cha.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd
05:57<andythenorth>Pikka missed all the excitement :o
06:08<andythenorth>close the industry dammit 9.9
06:10<andythenorth>hmm
06:10<andythenorth>if industry is type 00 (no closure), newgrf seems to not be able to over-ride that :o
06:11<andythenorth>Yay! *All* my power stations disappeared from the map. Result :D
06:12*andythenorth just thought of a refinement
06:12<andythenorth>fricking refinements :(
06:12<andythenorth>refinements = work
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06:21<Pikka>oops :)
06:22-!-ptr [~peter@c213-89-142-224.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #openttd
06:28<Pikka>andy: have you experimented with the prospecting/building cost property? and is it just me or does it not work in OpenTTD? :P
06:29<@peter1138>andythenorth, "pixel creations for open transport tycoon" ???
06:29<Pikka>what's an open transport tycoon? ;)
06:29<@peter1138>"transport tycoon" or "openttd", please?
06:29<@peter1138>quite
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06:32<__ln__>"transport tycoon" is known to be a registered trademark, so talking about "open transport tycoon" is like asking for unnecessary trouble and attention.
06:33<Ammler>why don't you want attention?
06:33<+tokai>Also it would be Open Transport Tycoon *Deluxe* anyway, no? :)
06:34<Ammler>Sounds like you have to hide something...
06:34<@Rubidium>Ammler: because the kind of attention you get means all your work on openttdcoop and it subprojects is pointless as there is no OpenTTD to play anymore
06:35<Pikka>and is it just me or does it not work in OpenTTD? :P <- aww shoot, it helps if I get the industry ID correct in the action 0... don't mind me
06:35<andythenorth>peter1138: better? http://tt-foundry.com/
06:35<@peter1138>don't see a change :p
06:36<Pikka>it says openttd in the title :P but still "open transport tycoon" in big letters at the top of the page...
06:37<__ln__>Ammler: i meant trademark/copyright holder's attention
06:38<andythenorth>doh
06:38<andythenorth>Who put that there :P
06:38*andythenorth is somewhat sleep deprived
06:39*andythenorth blames the baby
06:39<@Rubidium>I think "Not suitable for use in ways that violate good taste." makes them DFSG non-free
06:39<Pikka>andythenorth: blame it on the boogie
06:39<Pikka>Rubidium: it says not suitable, not not permitted...
06:39<andythenorth>Rubidium: it's a disclaimer not a licensing term :)
06:40*Pikka wonders if people will hate me if I incorporate pb_build into my toyland replacement ;)
06:40<andythenorth>does that make you *more* likely to do it :P
06:40<andythenorth>Which is better? Simple to explain, or fairer to player?
06:41<andythenorth>The case would be industry closure rules
06:41<@Rubidium>Pikka: just wonder whether people already hate you now. If that's the case then they'll most likely hate you if you incorporate it and as such nothing changes
06:41<Pikka>true enough, rubidium
06:42<andythenorth>when the game starts, five years protection from closure is probably not enough for an industry.
06:42<andythenorth>once cargo has been delivered for the first time, five years is way too generous
06:42<Ammler>__ln__: if "someone" really fears attention in that matter, it might be time to change the name ;-)
06:42<Pikka>andy: do you need to explain the exact mechanics to the player?
06:42<andythenorth>I'd rather not
06:43<dih>that'll just confuse them even more
06:43<dih>they don't know the exacts of the game anyway :-D
06:43<Pikka>then go for fairer and don't explain it ;)
06:43*dih just found apt-dater
06:43<dih>uhhh
06:44<Pikka>Ammler: I propose changing the name of OpenTTD to "Open Largely Unrelated Transport Game"
06:44<andythenorth>hmmm I'll just diddle the probability of closure, not the length of time. Easier
06:44<__ln__>Ammler: dunno whose name you are talking about, but OpenTTD's name in the title was changed something like 5 years ago for this precise reason.
06:44<andythenorth>And means I don't have to rewrite my texts (again)
06:44<Ammler>Rubidium: maybe you should start a "name competition" in tt-forums ;-)
06:46<Ammler>__ln__: I am sure, andythenorth isn't the first and the last who does refer TTD of OpenTTD to Tranport Tycoon Deluxe
06:47*andythenorth deletes his website, as it seems to be controversial
06:47*andythenorth undeletes his website. Phew!
06:47<JVassie>lol
06:47<JVassie>I need inspiration to finish these sprites :x
06:48<andythenorth>what are they?
06:48<PeterT>JVassie: Do it, or else
06:48<JVassie>British Modular Stations Set
06:48*andythenorth blew up *OpenTTD*
06:48<Pikka>JVassie: finish those sprites or I'll beat you around the head with a piece of wood
06:48<JVassie>xD
06:49*andythenorth definitely didn't blow up anything to do with a trademarked name
06:49<JVassie>I need a coder thouh
06:49<JVassie>*though
06:49<Pikka>andythenorth(tm)
06:49<andythenorth>JVassie: don't we all need a coder?
06:49<@Rubidium>where's "NewGRF coding for dummies"?
06:49<andythenorth>Rubidium: here
06:49<JVassie>andythenorth, probably
06:50<JVassie>hopefully though, a complete spritesheet will persuade one
06:50<Pikka>my wiki page is headed "Writing NFO for smarties. Because you're not as dumb as you think you are," Rubidium
06:50<Pikka>trying to help dummies is generally unproductive. ;)
06:51<Pikka>JVassie: stations are the one thing I've never properly attempted to code. I'll be doing some of my own soon though...
06:51<andythenorth>ha ha this is evil
06:51<andythenorth>so if you *never* service the power plant, it will eventually have a low chance of closure
06:51<Terkhen>unless they buy your "for dummies" books
06:52<JVassie>Ive attempted trying to code stations myself
06:52<JVassie>however I get lost in some of the vasics
06:52<JVassie>*basics
06:52<andythenorth>if you start delivering cargo, then don't service it, the chance of closure is somewhat higher
06:52<JVassie>unfortunately
06:52<Pikka>oh man, someone's gone and converted a big block of <pre> on my wiki to a proper wiki table...
06:53<Pikka>now if I want to change it I'll have to edit it properly instead of just overwriting it from the text dump D:
06:53<andythenorth>wiki formatting is major suck :(
06:53<@peter1138>or you can just overwrite it all from the text dump :D
06:53<Pikka>I'd feel guilty, peter1138 :D
06:53<@Rubidium>that's why I leave dumping the changelog on the wiki to others :)
06:54<Pikka>http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/index.php?title=NARS_Vehicle_List
06:54<Pikka>must have taken him ages... D:
06:58*andythenorth now feels power plants are sufficiently evil
06:58<andythenorth>mostly "FIRS is not evil"
06:58<andythenorth>but there has to be something...
07:01<@Rubidium>FIRS is really sinister industry replacement set is really sinister industry replacement set ... :)
07:01<andythenorth>FINE - FIRS Is Not Evil
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07:03<andythenorth>hi DanMacK
07:06<andythenorth>hmm
07:06<andythenorth> 81 18 00 \b50 //randomise
07:06<andythenorth>1 in 50 chance right?
07:06<Pikka>wut
07:06<andythenorth>or do I need to be more bit savvy
07:06<andythenorth>cos all my fricking power stations just announced closure :|
07:07<Pikka>um
07:07<andythenorth>this is inside cb 3A
07:07<andythenorth>if you see what I mean
07:08<andythenorth>oops cb 29
07:08<andythenorth>ah there are only 32 random bits available :)
07:09<Pikka>why 00 \b50?
07:09<Pikka>32 random bits isn't a problem :P
07:09<Pikka>32 random bits is a dword...
07:09<andythenorth>am I nibbling var 18 wrong?
07:09<@peter1138>what happened to your varadjust?
07:10<andythenorth>that is a good question
07:10<andythenorth>what did?
07:10<andythenorth>this appeared to be working code elsewhere :)
07:10<andythenorth>probably wasn't then?
07:10<andythenorth>grrr
07:10<Pikka>andy: does it need to be 1 in 50?
07:10<@peter1138>well, you ANDed var18 with 50?
07:10<andythenorth>I just need it to be 1 in 'some relatively large number' :)
07:11<Pikka>you could do 1 in 50 with a modulo, but it's probably easier to do, say, 1 in 64 with the and mask
07:11<andythenorth>1 in 32 would be sufficient I think
07:11<Pikka>for 1 in 32 you'll want to and with... 1F?
07:11<andythenorth>what's a 'low chance of closure' mean to you in probabilty terms?
07:12<Pikka>1 in 64 = 3F, 1 in 128 = 7F, 1 in 256 = FF
07:12<andythenorth>I can use escapes?
07:12<Pikka>you can, but you wouldn't want to
07:12<Pikka>it's easier to think in bits if you write in hex :)
07:13*andythenorth tries again.....make make make
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07:16<andythenorth>hmmm they didn't all immolate themselves at once this time
07:16*andythenorth leaves the game running for a bit...
07:16<andythenorth>afk
07:17<JVassie>Pikka, when is the first emu in UKRS?
07:18<Pikka>umm
07:18<Pikka>1960ish?
07:19<JVassie>hmm
07:19<JVassie>AM2 is 1958 apparently
07:19<Pikka>yes
07:19<Pikka>then
07:21<JVassie>thnx
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07:47<TrueBrain>LOL @ Latest xkcd :)
07:47<Uresu>link pls
07:48<Forked>xkcd.com
07:49<Forked>don't forget the mouse-over text
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07:49<TrueBrain>I really like this one :)
07:49<TrueBrain>the IQ graph is funny :)
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07:53<andythenorth>random bits have me baffled
07:55<Pikka>how so, andy?
07:56<andythenorth>conceptual fail
07:56<andythenorth>I don't get them
07:56<@peter1138>they're bits, and they're random
07:56<andythenorth>but the result in a varaction 2 is 1 or 0?
07:56<@peter1138>no
07:56<Pikka>no
07:56<andythenorth>ah
07:57<andythenorth>so anding random bits with 32 gets me anything between 0 and 32?
07:57<Pikka>no
07:58<Pikka>anding random bits with 0x1F gets you anything between 0 and 32
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07:58<Pikka>erm
07:58<Pikka>0 and 31 :)
07:58<andythenorth>hmm. Well I have conceptual fail, but my code is correct
07:58<Pikka>:)
07:58<Pikka>0x1F is 31
07:59<andythenorth>I'm only checking for 0 in the varact 2 anyway
07:59<andythenorth>:)
07:59<Pikka>but it's significant because it's 11111 in binary... so it's checking the bottom 5 bits.
08:00<andythenorth>ah I know have a mental picture of it
08:00<andythenorth>now /s
08:00<andythenorth>when I think of little black and white squares instead of numbers, bit stuff makes more sense!
08:00<Pikka>if you ANDED 0x20 (ie, 32 dec, binary 100000), there's only 1 bit it's checking, so if you checked for 0 you'd get 50% hits
08:01<andythenorth>thanks
08:08<andythenorth>Pikka: any chance you could review my code? The only way to test this is to run a long game with a lot of power stations!
08:08<andythenorth>http://paste.openttd.org/225276
08:08<andythenorth>:)
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08:12<Pikka>hmm
08:13<Pikka>when NUM_MONTHS_INDUSTRY_CLOSURE_PROTECTED is reached, that ticker stops increasing?
08:14<Pikka>I see
08:15<Pikka>hmm
08:16<Pikka>you want it to have a high chance of shutting down if cargo /has/ been delivered?
08:17<Pikka>that seems conceptually to be the wrong way round, but otherwise the code looks good :)
08:17<andythenorth>it is conceptually the wrong way round :)
08:17<andythenorth>but it might just work
08:17<andythenorth>I am trying to prevent that wave of closures five years after the game starts
08:18<Pikka>hmm
08:18<Pikka>so it waits for a period, then shuts down all the industries you're serving ;)
08:18<Pikka>?
08:18<Pikka>well, a quarter of the industries you're serving every month.
08:20<Pikka>you're also not setting "HAS_CARGO_EVER_BEEN_DELIVERED_FLAG" in there anywhere, does that happen somewhere else?
08:20<andythenorth>yes
08:20<andythenorth>in the production cb for cargo delivered
08:21<Pikka>I see
08:21<andythenorth>which also resets LOCAL_DELIVERY_TICKER_STORE
08:21<Pikka>oh
08:22<Pikka>righto :)
08:23<andythenorth>so I haven't screwed up the random closure code?
08:23<ashb>what madness is this?
08:24<andythenorth>madness?
08:24<Pikka>I don't know, I didn't check what the callback results mean, but if you say so :)
08:26*andythenorth checks the results
08:26<andythenorth>yup fine
08:26<andythenorth>that's probably that done then :o
08:26<andythenorth>dunno if it's a good idea
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08:58<@Rubidium>any Ubuntu users in here that want to risk their system by testing some .debs made especially for Ubuntu? Download them from http://devs.openttd.org/~rubidium/cf/ and tell me whether they work or not
09:02<TrueBrain>and this is the moment you find out we hav eno ubuntu users ;)
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09:04-!-mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
09:04<@Rubidium>glx: it's not DST here yet! :)
09:04<+glx>lol
09:06<blathijs>Rubidium: You've added a ubuntu builder to the compile farm?
09:06<@Rubidium>yup :(
09:06<@Rubidium>cause I had hopes Squeeze would install on Lucid, but that's not going to be the case in a few weeks anymore
09:08<blathijs>I can hijack $gf's Ubuntu system tonight, if I remember to :-)
09:12<@Rubidium>that would be lovely
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09:26<@Belugas>hello
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09:35<Pikka>get out you mad fool
09:35<Pikka>@ Belugas
09:35*Pikka toddles off to make dinner
09:35<@Belugas>mmmh?
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09:58<Eddi|zuHause>if all mad fools would get out of here, there would be noone left to develop the game...
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10:23<@Belugas>nope, since we'd all be outside having fun with those fools
10:23<@Belugas>you know what they say: the more fools, the more fun!
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10:30<Eddi|zuHause><TrueBrain> the IQ graph is funny :) <-- the question is, are the people using the internet really smarter than average, are they fooled by "fake" intelligence tests, or are they plain lieing?
10:31<Eddi|zuHause>besides, IQ numbers are useless, as there are multiple incomparable scales, that only have in common that 100 is the average...
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10:32<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: if you take a test (with scaling) of 10 years ago your IQ will be higher
10:32<@Rubidium>so I assume that they were using a test from before the whole copyright stuff, i.e. early 1900s
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>:)
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10:33<@Rubidium>nevertheless, the tests aren't quite accurate about 160 or so (so they just cap it there)
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>there are scales that don't spread much beyond 130
10:35<@Rubidium>and the tests on TV from the last few years make it even impossible to get more than like 150
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>i wouldn't believe any number higher than 120 anyway...
10:36<@peter1138>intelligence is limited to knowing when to google
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10:37<Eddi|zuHause>i do believe that people have a 23cm penis, though :p
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10:41<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: let me say that people who are smart enough to know how IQ work probably don't need to brag about their IQ, the rest just thinks they're smarter than the rest
10:42<aber>My IQ is 4.294.967.295
10:44<lennard>since in nl we use . to seperate the decimals, I'll just truncate that to 4 :P
10:45<aber>infact it is 18.446.744.073.709.600.000, i don't know. Is my computer broken?
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>yes.
10:47<@peter1138>that's a lot of zeros at the end
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>that's the broken part :)
10:49<@peter1138>yeah
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>18.446.744.073.709.551.616 <- actual 2^64
10:50<@peter1138>don't be silly, you can't have that many decimal points in a number
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>better than the swiss people, they have apostrophes in their numbers...
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11:11<Eddi|zuHause>hm... this error message "inflate failed", could that be made more descriptive so that it mentiond "possibly incomplete download" or something?
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11:14<__ln__>the DarkVater approach would be not to show the error message at all.
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11:43<Pikka>goodnight kiddies
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11:50<andythenorth>oh. pikka left
11:51<andythenorth>I haven't a clue how to do date maths in nfo
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>anything in particular?
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12:10*andythenorth design dichotomy
12:10<andythenorth>makes my brain ache
12:10<andythenorth>normally comes out in the wash though :)
12:10<andythenorth>question: why should industries close at all? Gameplay reasons?
12:11<PeterT>Bankruptness
12:11<andythenorth>caused by?
12:11<@Belugas>cough ** rea ** cough * lism*** cough... ARGH!!!!
12:11<@Rubidium>depletion of resources?
12:12<andythenorth>I'll narrow the question: processing industries
12:12<andythenorth>is it just irritating?
12:12<@Rubidium>dangerous situations, e.g. a fireworks depot in the middle of a town isn't such a good idea
12:12<PeterT>Revolt
12:12<@Rubidium>or something petrochemical in a town... same idea
12:12<andythenorth>in my experience only two things happen when an industry closes:
12:12<@Rubidium>you'll see that such companies get relocated out-of-town over time
12:13<andythenorth>(a) you've just built a route to it, and you're screwed. so game over
12:13<@Rubidium>(in the real world ofcourse)
12:13<andythenorth>(b) or you have enough money that you don't care
12:14<andythenorth>so basically it's either "stupid game ruined my game" or "meh"
12:15<@Rubidium>if you go bankrupt the move happens generally in the first year
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: only reasons imho should be (a) annoy the player [this should be disable-able], (b) unserviced, (c) dry out a cargo chain after a certain date [like oil wells in temperate]
12:15<andythenorth>(a) I don't like any more
12:15<andythenorth>(c) is valid
12:16<andythenorth>(b) is the one I am having trouble with
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12:22*andythenorth has yet another idea
12:23<@Rubidium>ditching FIRS?
12:23<andythenorth>:D
12:24<andythenorth>Rubidium: I have to get it released before the nightlies stop compiling on OS X
12:24<andythenorth>:o
12:26<andythenorth>There is currently a 5 year 'grace period' for industries to close due to lack of supply.
12:27<@Rubidium>:)
12:27<andythenorth>it's not enough, and it leads to a mass extinction of secondary industry 5 years into the game
12:27<@Rubidium>FYI: the compile farm is still capable of building OS X binaries; it's just still horribly slow
12:27<andythenorth>And I could still send you an intel mac
12:28<andythenorth>anyway, back to problems that *can* be solved....a grace period of twenty years seems more appropriate
12:28<andythenorth>large industrial plants are mothballed, not just destroyed
12:28<@Rubidium>you could, but I won't burn my fingers on Apple's APIs
12:28<andythenorth>and then I need some way to spread out the closing of industries so there is no mass exctinction
12:28<andythenorth>extinction /s
12:29<andythenorth>I could store a random seed in persistent storage at each industry - this would be used to spread closures out
12:31<andythenorth>or I could just prevent closure of secondary industry (which is very easy)
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i'd try to limit the number of industries of the same type that can close within a certain time (year?)
12:33<andythenorth>that would need a patch
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>so industries will not close all at the same time, but instead one by one
12:34<andythenorth>hmm
12:34<andythenorth>I could keep running the industry count var, and do something with comparing that I suppose
12:35<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I think it's a good suggestion. I don't think the implementation is trivial
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>you have global variables, right? so you just set a bit for each industry type, if you close one such industries, when the bit is already set, you skip closing the industry. at the end of the year, you reset the variable?
12:35<andythenorth>yep
12:35<andythenorth>or nope
12:35<andythenorth>depends what you mean by 'global' variables
12:36<Eddi|zuHause>one that is accessible from any place in the grf
12:36<andythenorth>not as far as I know
12:36<Eddi|zuHause>iirc you can use parameters for that
12:36<andythenorth>hmm
12:37*andythenorth wikis
12:38<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I can't see how a varaction 2 is going to write to one of the grf parameters :o
12:38<andythenorth>if it could, it would be....handy
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i'd have to read up on that...
12:40<andythenorth>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=ActionD
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>but Action D only seems to be run on grf activation, not during callbacks and stuff...
12:44<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I can see how to do it with persistent storage at the industry....
12:44<andythenorth>I would use the industry count var
12:45<andythenorth>I can forsee a strange whack-a-mole side effect though!
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>what do these "store" operators of varaction2 do?
12:45<andythenorth>stick values in registers or persistent storage
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12:49<Eddi|zuHause>how do you propose to do this with an industry-local storage only?
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12:55<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: for each industry: once per year, count and store the number of industries of type x; when the closure cb runs, test if the count has changed. If it is the same, allow closure. If it is different, prevent closure
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>so you can end up with repeated open/close industries in some corner cases
12:56<andythenorth>yes
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12:56<andythenorth>whack-a-mole :)
12:56<andythenorth>Currently my preference is to prevent closure entirely
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think that's going to be very dramatic
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>no closure at all? that sounds silly...
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12:59<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: something smells wrong about doing this in nfo
12:59<andythenorth>it seems like it should be in game
12:59<andythenorth>*so* many players have reported this as an irritant
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i have only ever heard of complaints about ECS, never about the default industries
13:00<andythenorth>perhaps
13:01<andythenorth>on large maps there will often be a mass extinction of industries after five years
13:01<andythenorth>the solution you described would solve that, but it would be better patched for...the nfo route is baroque
13:04*andythenorth has spent most of today watching industries close on fast-forward
13:05<andythenorth>not the most exciting day in recent times
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13:11*andythenorth oblique strategies time
13:11<andythenorth>"Faced with a choice, do both"
13:12<andythenorth>hmm
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13:19*andythenorth has an idea
13:19<dih>congrats
13:20<andythenorth>it's a bit evil
13:24<andythenorth>so lets say I want to randomly choose one value from 4 ,8, 12, 16
13:24<andythenorth>how do I do that cleanly in nfo?
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>mask with 0x3, add 1, shift by 2
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>or mask with 0xB (=0xF-0x3) and add 4
13:34<andythenorth>ow
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>0xB is 1100 (i believe), so you get values 0,4,8,12
13:35<andythenorth>does this come in a pre-written nfo flavour :)
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>isn't that a simple varadjust?
13:35<andythenorth>sorry, normally I try, but babies steal my sleep
13:35<andythenorth>at the moment
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>more than one?
13:35<andythenorth>actually just the one
13:36<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: actually 0x1100 is 0xC
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>glx: possibly, i can't count :=
13:36<+glx>well 1100 ;)
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>especially not the alphabet backwards :)
13:38<andythenorth>hmm
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so you set bit 6 in shift-num (=0x40?), then 0xC as and-mask, 0x4 as add-val and 0x1 as divide-val
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>results in 40 0C (00 00 00) 04 (00 00 00) 01 (00 00 00)
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>where the numbers in () are dependent on the bit-width
13:41<andythenorth>thanks
13:41*andythenorth thinks of a way to test that
13:41*andythenorth needs a cb that runs when an industry is built
13:41<andythenorth>cb 14B might do that
13:44*andythenorth is too tired for nfo!
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13:47<andythenorth>ha ha completely different idea, flash game style coding
13:47<andythenorth>I however realise this channel is becoming a monologue, by me
13:47<andythenorth>I unusually have time on my hands :o
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13:59<@Belugas>mind you opening your hands, i might grab a few of that precious time!
13:59<@peter1138>blueergh
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14:01<andythenorth>sometimes doing things 'wrong' is just nicer
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14:10<@Belugas>yeah.. like keep playing that false note for a while and it will become right :D
14:17<DJNekkid>is the grfID in little endian?
14:19<DJNekkid>DJNekkid: yes
14:19<DJNekkid>:D
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>DJNekkid: why does that matter?
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>it's never converted to a decimal number anywere
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>or used as a number at all...
14:21<+glx>except to compare it with another GRFID
14:21<DJNekkid>how i would write an action 7/9 that skips if this or that ID is active :)
14:22<DJNekkid>and i know the grfID
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>just write it the same way as it appears in action 8
14:22<DJNekkid>i found that out :)
14:22<Hirundo>ID of what?
14:22<Hirundo>grfID or vehicle/station ID?
14:22<DJNekkid>grfID
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>DJNekkid: it is generally safe to assume that anything in NFO is little endian
14:23<DJNekkid>yup :)
14:23<Ammler>I thought, everything except the GRFID :-)
14:24<Hirundo>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Action7 <- condition 06 to 0A, 09 seems best in this case
14:24<DJNekkid>Hirundo: i figuered out what to do...
14:25<DJNekkid>it were the grfID in were AABBCCDD or \dxAABBCCDD :)
14:25<DJNekkid>(AA BB CC DD)
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14:26<Ammler>[19:25] <DJNekkid> it were the grfID in were AABBCCDD or \dxAABBCCDD  <-- isn't that big endian?
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14:28<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: the first one is little endian, the second one is big endian, and he asked which one is right
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14:29<andythenorth>renum is stumbling on this \2* 1A 20 \d04 //multiply a bit for luck
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>(and the answer is: the first)
14:29<andythenorth>that's supposed to multiply previous value by 4
14:30<andythenorth>1A is the var to create constant, the 20 is there because I'm going to store it in the next operation
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>i have never used renum
14:30<andythenorth>do I need to mask it?
14:31<Hirundo>What is the error message?
14:31<andythenorth>Hirundo: http://paste.openttd.org/225281
14:31<andythenorth>umm
14:31<andythenorth>no
14:32<andythenorth>hang on a mo
14:32<andythenorth>Hirundo: http://paste.openttd.org/225282
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14:34<Hirundo>\2* 20 \d04 //multiply a bit for luck <- missing variable (1A) here?
14:35<andythenorth>yup
14:36<andythenorth>doesn't fix it though :)
14:37<blathijs>DaleStan: Is Makefile.common in grfcodec still relevant? A comment in there says it is used for both the normal Makefile and Makefile.win, but the normal Makefile includes stuff from Makefil.common already and Makefile.win doesn't seem to exist?
14:38<Hirundo>18 20 07 //randomise <- no dword-sized and-mask here, I think
14:38<andythenorth>yup
14:39<andythenorth>thanks
14:39<blathijs>DaleStan: Seems Makefile.win got removed in r2167, so I guess Makefile.common should go as well?
14:39<andythenorth>Hirundo: fixed
14:39<andythenorth>:)
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14:41<andythenorth>hmm
14:42<andythenorth>are there any permanently available random bits lurking in an industry anywhere?
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>put them in the persistent storage?
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>on a quick glance i find random bits for industrytiles...
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>the Industry struct has a "uint16 random; ///< Random value used for randomisation of all kinds of things"
14:48<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: yep could put them into persistent storage. I'd need to use cb 14B and I can't be bothered to figure that out today :o
14:48<andythenorth>unless there is another cb that runs when industry is built
14:48<andythenorth>If I get cb 14B wrong...I screw the cargos for the industry :)
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14:53<Eddi|zuHause>there certainly are random bits for industries, but i don't find how you access them...
14:54<frosch123>via randomaction2 or var 5f
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14:56<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19440 /trunk/src/lang/ (10 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
14:56<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:56<CIA-6>OpenTTD: catalan - 2 changes by arnau
14:56<CIA-6>OpenTTD: czech - 7 changes by TheLamer
14:56<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frisian - 97 changes by Fopper
14:56<CIA-6>OpenTTD: greek - 4 changes by
14:56<CIA-6>OpenTTD: icelandic - 34 changes by baldur
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>case 0x5F: return (object->GetRandomBits(object) << 8) | object->GetTriggers(object); <-- that's probably the place
14:56<andythenorth>frosch123: is var 5F consistent, i.e. will it always return the same random bits for a given industry?
14:57<andythenorth>(that would seem undesirable generally, but it's what I am after)
14:57<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19441 /trunk/src/lang/greek.txt: -Fix (r19437): broken Greek translation.
14:57<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19442 /trunk/ (known-bugs.txt readme.txt): -Update: readme about openmsx and make it easier to find the pulseaudio-ubuntu-slowness bug in the readme/known-bugs
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know what a trigger is, but otherwise it seems to remain constant
14:57<PeterT>CIA-6: You're slow today
14:57<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r19443 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#3701]: Mark industry windows dirty more often.
14:57<frosch123>andythenorth: it is only randomised on creation or by using an randomaction2 with triggers
14:58<andythenorth>so it could change during the game?
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: only when you want it to (i believe)
14:59<frosch123>only if you tell them to change
14:59<andythenorth>ok thanks
15:00<ptr>katt
15:01<frosch123>andythenorth, Eddi|zuHause: http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=VariationalAction2#Variable http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=RandomAction2#Industry_tile_triggers <- for your reference
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15:15<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19444 /trunk/bin/ (8 files in 2 dirs): -Update: base set translations for Polish, Slovak and Turkish.
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15:19<@peter1138>andythenorth, persistent random bits are very desirable, heh
15:19<@peter1138>think randomised liveries, for example
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>industry producing random cargos :)
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15:33<andythenorth>renum: //!!Warning (86): Offset 4: Testing nonexistant variable 5F.
15:33<andythenorth> from 89 5F 20 \dx07
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15:36<Zuu>Yexo: Is it a design desicion or a bug that AI libraries can't be cyclic dependent on eachother?
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: did you try ingame? maybe it's a renum bug
15:38<andythenorth>seems to work. I'm getting signed values though
15:38-!-ptr [~peter@wpa-n21-p38.kthopen.kth.se] has quit [Quit: Zzzzzz]
15:38<andythenorth>I need a mask
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>whether a value is signed or unsigned is purely interpretation dependent
15:38<andythenorth>so if I want random 0-7, how do I mask for that
15:39<andythenorth>It's a dword "Feature-specific random data: triggers in low byte, bits in other three bytes. Bits of the variable not associated with random or trigger bits are reserved"
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15:39<Eddi|zuHause>a shift of 8 and mask of 0F 00 00 00, probably
15:39<Nite_Owl>Hello all
15:46<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause / frosch123 http://paste.openttd.org/225285
15:46<andythenorth>line 4 is my attempt to get random 0-7 from var 5F
15:46<andythenorth>fail :)
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>no, not \dxBLAH... just BLAH
15:48<frosch123>5F 28 \dx07
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>shift 8, to mask out the trigger bits
15:49<frosch123>or \dxFF ? do you want values 0-7 or bits 0-7 ?
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>\dx0F, i presume
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>no, that's 15
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, \dx07 is for 0-7
15:49<frosch123>7 is 7 :p
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16:02<Yexo><Zuu> Yexo: Is it a design desicion or a bug that AI libraries can't be cyclic dependent on eachother? <- where is that not possible? In the game or on bananas?
16:02<Zuu>In game
16:02<Yexo>but imo if two libraries are cyclic dependent you should merge them in one library
16:03<Zuu>That is what I'm trying to do or rather trying to keep them organized in classes but in the same big library.
16:03<andythenorth>there's a fast-forward bug on OS X right?
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16:04<andythenorth>that is a very useful bug today
16:04<Zuu>Trying to break out common stuff from CluelessPlus and PAXLink will most likely result in a big library on bananas that has cyclic dependencies inside it.
16:05<Zuu>Btw, using require inside a library is that allowed? OpenTTD do not complain, but the classes seam to appear at global scope in the AI that uses the library.
16:05<Zuu>In my case that is not a problem, but for someone else it could become.
16:05<Yexo>each library can only have one class
16:05<Yexo>if it has more then one class the others will end up in the global scope currently, but that is bad
16:06<Zuu>Yep, but you can create static members in that class with instances of other classes.
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16:06<Zuu>I agree that having them in global scope is bad, still I'm not really happy with merging all my utilities into just a single class.
16:07<Yexo>you could use subclasses
16:07<Yexo>that should work fine
16:07<Yexo>ehm, nut subclasses, but child classes
16:08<Zuu>If I can figure out how that will work I'll might make a script that compile the main.nut file from files with the subclass files.
16:08<Zuu> s/compile/compose/
16:09<Zuu>Child classes is basically a nested class definition?
16:09<@peter1138>20:03 < andythenorth> there's a fast-forward bug on OS X right?
16:09<@peter1138>is there?
16:09<Yexo>Zuu: yes
16:10<andythenorth>peter1138 in the first couple of months...super speedy. I'm sure Rubidium mentioned it in a discussion somewhere :o
16:10<andythenorth>kind of useful for testing industry closure though
16:10<@peter1138>superspeedy?
16:11<@peter1138>fast-forward goes as fast as your system can
16:11<@peter1138>that is not a bug
16:11<Yexo>it the first few months go very fast and then it slows down an AI probably started at that time
16:12<andythenorth>Yexo: :o
16:12<andythenorth>thanks, that could save me a lot of time staring at industry windows
16:17<Zuu>The Road Pathfinder, v3 has a class "Road.Cost" defined after the main class (after the ending } ), this class is not a subclass right?
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16:17<andythenorth>woah that's strange industry generation on big map
16:18<Zuu>I tried this http://paste.openttd.org/225286 , but OpenTTD complains on line 3: "expected IDENTIFIER"
16:18<Zuu>(sorry, for my bad food examples)
16:19<andythenorth>2578 coal mines, 1517 power stations, 963 sawmills. 1 of everything else :o
16:19<andythenorth>I don't *think* that's my fault
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16:19<Yexo>Zuu: does this work? http://paste.openttd.org/225287
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16:20<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r19445 /trunk/src/ (rail_gui.cpp road_gui.cpp): -Change: No need to drag an area when overbuilding bridges.
16:20<Zuu>no, now it says "expected '=' on the same row.
16:23<andythenorth>does \2^ raise to a power?
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>i'd assume bitwise xor
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>power is usually only available for floating point arithmetics
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>as integer power is quite calculation intensive
16:26<frosch123>you can only multiply with powers of two by shifting
16:26<andythenorth>ok
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>pow(a,b) can be calculated by the "square and multiply" algorithm
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>but for float values, pow(a,b) is exp(b*log(a))
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16:27<Eddi|zuHause>where exp and log translate to FPU commands
16:28<andythenorth>some var \2* some var again does the trick :)
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>if you want integer power for arbitrary values, the algorithm is: pow(a,b) { if (b==0) return 1; result := pow(a,b/2); result*=result; if (b is odd) result*=a; return result; }
16:31<andythenorth>:)
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16:31<andythenorth>doesn't look much like nfo to me
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>turning that into NFO is easy, just have to read it backwards :)
16:32<Zuu>Yexo: After experimenting a bit I came up with this: http://paste.openttd.org/225288 - but I have not yet figured out how to not need to define the functions in the same place as they are declared.
16:33<Zuu>It's basically an un-named class so I guess it's hard to not define the functions straight away in the declarations.
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>you can probably also turn that into an iterative version
16:33<Yexo>Zuu: yes, s/hard/impossible/ even
16:34<andythenorth>oh. Mass industry extinctions still happening :|
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>for(res=1;b!=0;r=b&1,b>>=1) { res*=res; if (r) res*=a }
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>or something similar...
16:35<Zuu>A problem with not being able to split the classes into files is that you can't solve cyclic dependancies then. Unless squirrel support adding functions after a class has been declared.
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>hm, that's probably not correct
16:37<Yexo>Zuu: you can call a function before it is defined, as long as the function definition is encountered before the call is actually executed
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>b must be unrolled from the other end
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>so b<<=1,r=get_overflow_flag_somehow
16:38<Zuu>Hmm, got the problem that it didn't find classes when I just inlined all my code in main.nut at global scope.
16:39<Yexo>the main class is renamed by openttd
16:39<Zuu>Yep, but the main class was in this case rather empty. They used the global-scope names of the sub-libraries.
16:42<Zuu>Ah, sorry, it was the main class that didn't find the global scope classes, since I didn't move the main class to the bottom.
16:42<Zuu>Doing that, the subclasses can be interdependent with cyclic dependencies (at global scope) in a single file.
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16:44<Zuu>So mayby using the child classes will work technically, but would produce a main.nut that hardly could be used as doccumentation.
16:45<Yexo>you could work in multiple files and cat them together before releasing
16:45<Yexo>a bit of a hack, but that could work
16:47<Zuu>That was my plan. Though I was planing to use some more logic in the script to not have move around the code, but that might just make a mess of it.
16:48<andythenorth>code random is never quite as random as it ought to be :o
16:48<Zuu>I usually put the documentating comments about how to use a function at the declaration rather than at the definitions.
16:48<Zuu>A such file can't be cated togeather.
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16:59*andythenorth is going to fix industry closure if it kills him (possible!)
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17:02<Terkhen>hello
17:03<Alberth>andythenorth: just remove it from the newgrf specs, so the program code can be fixed :p
17:04<andythenorth>Alberth: tempting
17:04<andythenorth>not my call though :)
17:05*frosch123 wonders why petert still did not become coder of cets
17:06*andythenorth suspects some law of large numbers
17:07<andythenorth>if 10 industries each sum a lot of random numbers, they'll probably get the same result?
17:08<frosch123>then you need different frequencies
17:08<andythenorth>?
17:09<frosch123>small noise which changes often, larger noise which only changes over years
17:10<andythenorth>frosch123: here is my current code
17:10<andythenorth>http://paste.openttd.org/225291
17:10<@Belugas>YOUHOU!!!!!
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it can only work if the industries have another protection period after an industry closed, or if the closing probability depends on the number of closed industries
17:10<frosch123>instead of checking every month for 1% closure, compute a random number of months when to check the next time or so
17:10<Alberth>bye Belugas
17:10<@Belugas>freedom freedom, we will not obey
17:10<@Belugas>freedom freedom take them all away!
17:11<@Belugas>bye Alberth :D
17:11<andythenorth>bye
17:11<@Belugas>and the others too!!
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: there seems to be no global storage
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17:11<Eddi|zuHause>only industry-local
17:11<frosch123>yup, what's the problem with that?
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: so what happens with one industry cannot easily influence what happens with other industries
17:12<frosch123>you talk about 5 year protection after building. but you should consider a yearly chance of 10% to start a 5 year protection period
17:13<frosch123>don't make industries change production monthly by +- 5%, but make them decide to increase production by 20% over the next 5 years
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>hm, that might sound interesting
17:13<frosch123>make stuff random, but random in big scale. no continuous small stuff
17:14<andythenorth>frosch123: sounds like I should learn to work with dates in nfo :|
17:14<frosch123>dates are stupid :) count months in the monthly callback
17:15<frosch123>that is more fool proof wrt. changing date by cheat, starting before 1920 or even using daylength
17:16<andythenorth>so wait n months (random) before trying to do the closure....fewer checks, less chance that all industries will converge on similar values
17:17<frosch123>i would think so
17:18<andythenorth>still smells like a game thing, I think it's a problem for all industry sets :)
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17:19<andythenorth>hmm
17:19<andythenorth>Instead of monthly production change cb, I could just wait for the random one to get called. Don't really know how that works though.
17:20<frosch123>true, the random change might also be useful for that
17:21<frosch123>then you could do smaller changes +-1% in the monthly thingie, and bigger scale decisions in the random one
17:22<frosch123>e.g. decide in the random one to increase by +-1% every month until the next random change appears
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17:22<andythenorth>does the random one apply to secondary industries? The documentation around it is unclear
17:22<frosch123>(that is a linear increase/decrease between the random change callback)
17:23<frosch123>the callbacks are called the same for all industries
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i presume that it applies to all industries, but for secondary industries only for the cargo that gets produced without any input
17:24<andythenorth>I'll try it
17:24*andythenorth contemplates watching yet another game for 10 years on fast forward :o
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17:28<andythenorth>does the random production change scale with map size, or number of industries in game?
17:34<frosch123>with map size
17:35<frosch123>if you start a 2048x2048 map with a single industry, it will change production every few days :p
17:36<andythenorth>so if there are very few industries on that map, they'll get culled fast
17:36<andythenorth>?
17:36<andythenorth>and as industries close, it's ever more likely that the remaining ones close?
17:36<frosch123>yup
17:36<frosch123>well, about the closure ... no idea
17:37<andythenorth>as industry count decreases, frequency they are chosen by random cb increases?
17:37<frosch123>that is true
17:39<frosch123>[22:38] <frosch123> if you start a 2048x2048 map with a single industry, it will change production every few days :p <- twice a day actually
17:43<frosch123>night
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18:05*andythenorth thinks upside down and comes out right side up
18:05<Zuu>Yexo: will BaNaNaS complain if you include other files than main.nut and library.nut in a tar? Eg. can I include my source files there or do I need to refer people to somewhere else to get the source files?
18:06<Yexo>I think you can include as many *.nut files as you want
18:06<Yexo>but I'm not sure
18:06<Yexo>TrueBrain should know
18:06<Zuu>Ok, then I'll try when it's time for BaNaNaS.
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18:07<TrueBrain>just try it :p
18:07<Zuu>I've done my ruby script now.
18:08<TrueBrain>wouldn't know :)
18:08<TrueBrain>long time ago :p
18:08<Zuu>hehe
18:08<Zuu>yep, better try and see.
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18:10<Zuu>Now that I got you both here, the one of you Yexo and TrueBrain who can add projects to noai.openttd.org can I asks for "CluelessPlus" and "SuperLib"?
18:10<TrueBrain>Yexo can do that :)
18:10<Yexo>sure
18:11<Zuu>Thanks
18:11<Yexo>"cluelessplus" and "superlib" as identifiers?
18:11<Yexo>the identifier is part of the url and can't be changed later
18:11<Zuu>Ok, that's fine
18:11<Yexo>hmm, is "lib-super" also fine?
18:11<Yexo>all libraries have that
18:11<Zuu>yea, that's probably better then.
18:12<Yexo>and then and "ai-cluelessplus" then too
18:12<Zuu>sure
18:14<Yexo>ok, done :)
18:14<Yexo>you might have to wait up to an hour for the svn repo to be created
18:14<Yexo>it was *:14 or *:18 I think, but that might have changed
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18:20<Zuu>Ok, I'm off for bed anyways. Sleeping over at the office I need to make sure I'm up and ready before anyone else arrives in the morining. :-)
18:21<Zuu>I've posted a zip with the library and the ruby script at tt-forums if you are interested.
18:21<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19446 /branches/1.0/ (41 files in 9 dirs):
18:21<CIA-6>OpenTTD: [1.0] -Backport from trunk:
18:21<CIA-6>OpenTTD: - Fix: Mark industry windows dirty more often [FS#3701] (r19443)
18:21<CIA-6>OpenTTD: - Update: Readme about openmsx and make it easier to find the pulseaudio-ubuntu-slowness bug in the readme/known-bugs (r19442)
18:21<CIA-6>OpenTTD: - Language updates
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19:20<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19447 /tags/1.0.0-RC3/ (5 files in 4 dirs): -Release: 1.0.0-RC3
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19:39<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you're right about needing to check for other similar industry closing. Think it's the only way to prevent 'waves' of closure
19:39<andythenorth>so now I'll have to code that :)
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19:40<Pikka>andy: or just add a random amount to the protected time ;)
19:40<Pikka>quasi-random
19:41<andythenorth>Pikka: you've missed all that fun :)
19:41<andythenorth>That's kind of happening
19:41<Pikka>:P k
19:41<andythenorth>but put enough random numbers together, the effect stops being random :)
19:42-!-De_Ghosty [~s@76-10-146-247.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #openttd
19:42<andythenorth>I'm going to have to count the buggers :o
19:42<Pikka>bugger.
19:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: other option is: on creation you make an even distribution of protection periods between 5 and 30 years
19:45<Eddi|zuHause>that will spread out the closing wave very far
19:45<@Rubidium>just create one industry of everything at map creation!
19:46<@Rubidium>then there won't be a big wave of closures :)
19:46<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: there won't be an industry network either :)
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19:48<Eddi|zuHause>or make the closure chance dependent on game time, like 0.1% per year since game start
19:49<Eddi|zuHause>so you have a progressing rate, instead of a protection period and a jump
19:49<andythenorth>add enough inustries, they'll still end up in sync
19:49<Eddi|zuHause>in late game you have like a 10% closure chance for new industries, so you'll have to incorporate them into your network quickly
19:50<Pikka>andy: obviously if the number of industries that need closing is greater than the number of possible closing date, you're going to have some collisions?
19:51<andythenorth>yes
19:51<Eddi|zuHause>hm... either the cat has grown too big, or the empty area of my desk has grown too small
19:52<Eddi|zuHause>no matter how the cat lies, it always ends up with some part on the keyboard
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19:54<Terkhen>hmmm... too many vehicles in game
19:54<Terkhen>time for bed :P
19:54<Terkhen>good night
19:55<@Rubidium>night Terkhen
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19:57<andythenorth>tomorrow...I make friends with industry var 67
19:58<Pikka>good times
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19:59<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19448 /extra/website/general/utils/agent_detection.py: [Website] -Add: detection of Ubuntu user agents
20:00<Eddi|zuHause>we call that an "Extrawurst"
20:01<@Rubidium>wurst!?! where?!?
20:01-!-Yexo [~Yexo@205-89-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:01<Eddi|zuHause>it's figuratively :)
20:02<Eddi|zuHause>if you want to blame someone for needing special treatment you say about him "he needs an extra sausage"
20:03<Eddi|zuHause>in this case the ubuntu users
20:04<Eddi|zuHause>the phrase generally has a negative connotation
20:04<@Rubidium>the word "ubuntu" too
20:04<Pikka>hur hur hur
20:05-!-Yexo [~Yexo@205-89-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has joined #openttd
20:05<Pikka>bonjour herr Yexo
20:05<Yexo>good evening Pikka
20:06<Pikka>hmms
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20:07<andythenorth>who likes maths?
20:07<@Rubidium>some guy in Halle
20:07<Pikka>where did this rc3 come from? :P
20:08<Pikka>andythenorth: not me
20:08<Eddi|zuHause>:)
20:09<andythenorth>an xy co-ordinate of an industry is unique, so I should be able to use that as a unique offset for closure period
20:09<andythenorth>I don't think it will work though :)
20:09<Pikka>andy, yep
20:09<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: ofcourse I meant Cantor :)
20:09<andythenorth>or at least, not a good idea
20:09<@Rubidium>Pikka: no idea
20:09<Pikka>andy: I use xy as the quasi-random value for setting estimated resources :)
20:09-!-mode/#openttd [+o Yexo] by Rubidium
20:09<@Rubidium>Yexo: why haven't you updated the topic yet?
20:09-!-Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B74FBC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit []
20:09<@Rubidium>:)
20:10<@Yexo>@op
20:10<andythenorth>Pikka: does that mean industries at one end of the map get more resources?
20:10-!-Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B74AB0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
20:10<Pikka>no
20:10<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: there exist functions for that, for example trees or railtypes
20:10*Pikka checks exactly what formula I use
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20:11<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it should be trivial to expose similar pseudorandom values to industries
20:12<@Rubidium>it's just some bit magic being done on their tile indices
20:13<andythenorth>that can probably be done in nfo, without any trunk change
20:13<andythenorth>I don't know how, but I figure it's possible
20:13<@Yexo>@op
20:13<Pikka>ah, actually I don't use the xy, I use the low nibble of the manhattan distance to nearest town
20:14*andythenorth returns to pondering var 67 :)
20:14<@Rubidium>Yexo: getting ops when you already have ops is kinda difficult
20:14<Pikka>which gives me a random number between 0 and 15
20:14<Pikka>@op
20:14<@Yexo>Rubidium: I just figured that out :)
20:14-!-Yexo changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.7.5, 1.0.0-RC3 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | English only
20:14-!-mode/#openttd [+v Pikka] by Rubidium
20:15<+Pikka>woo, I got a v
20:15-!-mode/#openttd [-o Yexo] by DorpsGek
20:15<@Rubidium>a mini-op :)
20:15<Yexo>but my hostmask changed again, so DorpsGek didn't autorecognize me either
20:15<Yexo>so after my first @op I was (again) finding out how to login to dorpsgek
20:17<Yexo>Rubidium: no mention of the music project this time?
20:18-!-Nite [5472b1fc@webchat.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
20:18<Nite>Hi
20:18<Eddi|zuHause>it's a not-owl
20:19<Nite>true
20:20<Nite>Has anyone thought of some modification so that only cargo that has been transportet * tiles gets payed?
20:20<Yexo>how does that differ from the current behavior?
20:20<Nite>to avoid "beaming"
20:21-!-Chruker [~no@port113.ds1-vj.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit []
20:21<Yexo>oh, that
20:21<Nite>it differs because rigbnt now it gets payed
20:21<Yexo>current payment is between the station signs
20:21<Yexo>there is no easy way to prevent that
20:21<Yexo>if you pay between source and destination industry/city then you can still beam the cargo around
20:22<Nite>true - what i mean it would be nice if you could set a minimum distance cargo has to travel to get payed at all
20:22<Yexo>and how are you going to measure that?
20:22<Eddi|zuHause>Nite: in case you calculate payment according to distance travelled by the vehicle, then how do you prevent hauling cargo back and forth across the whole map, to an industry 10 tiles away from the source?
20:22<Yexo>the cargo has "moved" between the 2 station signs, and that could be 100 tiles with a large station spread
20:23<Nite>well back and forth would at least be travelled (why would you do that?)
20:23<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: well, that would be "easy", just count the distance in "vehicle_enter_tile"
20:23<Yexo>Nite: you would do that to get payed more for the same cargo
20:23<Eddi|zuHause>Nite: to get more payment out of the same cargo, same as "beaming"
20:24<Eddi|zuHause>you're simply trading for a different kind of abuse
20:24<Nite>it wouldnt prevent the back and forth but it would prevent real "beaming" (= no track built at all)
20:25<Nite>right now it is calculated how far a cargo travelled by distance between stations i guess?
20:25<Nite>true?
20:25<Eddi|zuHause>yes
20:25<Nite>if so it could stay the same
20:26<Nite>do not get payed if stations are not * tiels away - isnt that simple?
20:26<Eddi|zuHause>Nite: you can theoretically make it distance between industries, but that wouldn't prevent "beaming" either
20:27<Eddi|zuHause>Nite: as Yexo explained, stations can be 100 tiles apart and still be next to each other
20:27<Yexo><Nite> do not get payed if stations are not * tiels away - isnt that simple? <- no, then I'll just beam an extra time so the first and last stations are far enough apart
20:28<Nite>i get it
20:28<Yexo>easiest solution is making the maximum station spread small
20:28<Eddi|zuHause>12 tiles should be enough for anybody :)
20:28<Yexo>and even better is a server with an admin that enforces rules that disallow this
20:29<Nite>then someone would say "if the spread is small i just bould more stations"
20:29<Eddi|zuHause>12 tiles station spread is still a huge area
20:29<Nite>i was talking about 12 (coincidently)
20:29<Eddi|zuHause>Nite: yes, any measurement you take against this, can be circumvented
20:29-!-tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-247-150.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:30<Eddi|zuHause>Nite: it will always require a human saying "this does not look right... let's ban this guy"
20:31<Nite>since that would be the solution to everything it would need no gameplay mechanic at all ...
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20:32-!-mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ
20:32<@Rubidium>there is no simple and effective way to prevent 'cheating'
20:32<@Rubidium>is it cheating when you transfer cargo on a 64 tile wide contiguous station?
20:33<Eddi|zuHause>oh man... this is so tempting...
20:33<@Rubidium>if a train enters on platform 1 and transfers to a train on platform 64... that'd be "beaming" too, right?
20:33<Nite>no
20:33<Nite>beaming is when the train hardly travels at all
20:33<Eddi|zuHause>statement by HIM: "a complete industry set is in development, please don't ask when it will be ready" :p
20:34<Eddi|zuHause>Nite: but there is no objective measurement of "hardly"
20:34<+glx>Rubidium: even better if there's nothing between platform 1 and platform 64
20:34<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: RTM... when eastern and pentecost are one the same day?
20:35<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: oh, that is good, i'll use that :)
20:35<Nite>platform 64 would at least be a "travel" (with "hardly i eman X = variable :-P)
20:36<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: it's a Dutch proverb/saying of some sorts :)
20:38<Eddi|zuHause>incidentally, although both are moving holidays, the distance between both is constant :)
20:38<@Rubidium>oh, it's easter not eastern :)
20:39<Eddi|zuHause>well, it works in german as well :)
20:39<Nite>the idstances between industreis (destinations) simply need to be bigger so beaming would be more hassle than connecting with treck ... *thinking*
20:39<Eddi|zuHause>although i know such phrases more with christmas and new year
20:39<Nite>-trAck
20:39<Yexo>Nite: as I said before, then you could still beam 2 or 3 times
20:39<Yexo>still easier then building the complete track
20:40<Yexo>just lower the maximum station spread to 4
20:40<Nite>yeah but not 100 times - what i mean with distance
20:40<Nite>you cant play with spread 4 becaus industreis simply produ#ce too much
20:41<Eddi|zuHause>that's still easier than managing 100 trains on a congested line
20:41<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19449 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: pay for every airport tile build, not for every tile in the rectangle where the airport is build
20:42<Nite>i doubt that 100 beaming trains would be eassy to handle
20:42<Yexo>you wouldn't need 100 beaming trains
20:42<Yexo>if you have station spread set to 12 or so and you normally would need 100 trains I'm quite sure you can do with only 20beaming trains
20:42<Yexo>and a lot less rails
20:43<@Rubidium>why use trains? Use ships... way more effective
20:43<Nite>wati what i initailly meant beaming is not payed - not impossible
20:44<Nite>so if none of the beaming stations is far enough would the cargo sitll be calced between the first and the last?
20:44<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: but you can't join two docks
20:44<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: good point
20:44<@Rubidium>half ship half train then :)
20:45<@Rubidium>although... if transfers were to be slightly rewritten
20:45<@Rubidium>for "leg" payment loading location - unloading location
20:46<Nite>what happen if i brutally set leg payment to zero?
20:46<Yexo>Nite: you'd still get the same total income, but only the final train gets profit
20:46<Eddi|zuHause>Nite: you get full payment at the end
20:46<@Rubidium>for final payment: min(sum of legs payments (including last), payment original source - destination)
20:46<Eddi|zuHause>this is how the original game worked
20:47<Nite>ic only some trains would be in red bot the last even more in the black ...
20:47<Nite>(bot = but)
20:47<Yexo>Rubidium: now that is an interesting idea
20:48<Nite>finally
20:48<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: so you don't store the location of the station sign, but the location where the loading happened?
20:48<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: no, both
20:48<Yexo>station sign is still needed for the "payment original source - destination" part
20:49<Nite>should lead to: only the longest of the tavels count - everything else not payed at all
20:49<@Rubidium>we already store the loading station and loading xy
20:49<Eddi|zuHause>but this only solves half the problem, you still have the option of doing a 100 wagon train that just turns around between two 1 tile stations
20:50<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: ever looked at the loading penalty for that?
20:50<Nite>loading would take very long though
20:50<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: yes, but that train will take so long to load/unload that that's not really a problem
20:50<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i have not actually tried this :)
20:50<@Rubidium> unloading_time += (overhang * unloading_time) / 8;
20:51<@Rubidium>and that ignores the initial <<= 1 because there is overhang
20:51<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: is that also if only the first wagon has cargo at all?
20:51<@Rubidium>that number is 40 for non-overhang
20:51<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: yes
20:51<Nite>then you would only need a one wagon train
20:52<Eddi|zuHause>Nite: the point is that by simply turning around, the train travels 50 tiles
20:52<Eddi|zuHause>which takes 0 time
20:53<Nite>so first xy of cargo is stored and when its accepted by destination the complete destination is calced - am i right?
20:53<Nite>would mean how far a train travels is ignored at all
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20:54<Eddi|zuHause>but i think the whole transfer system has a wrong approach
20:54<Eddi|zuHause>i'm just not sure how to model a right approach
20:55<Eddi|zuHause>two scenarios where the transfer calculation horribly fails:
20:55<Eddi|zuHause>transferring source->train->ship->destination
20:55<Eddi|zuHause>results in huge loss for the ship, because it is slower than the train
20:56<Eddi|zuHause>transferring city->main-station->next main-station->city [especially in cargodist] can also result in huge loss, because the last leg of the travel may go backwards
20:56<Yexo>the main problem there is that when the train transfers the cargo to the station no prediction of the rest of the travel can be made
20:57<Yexo>that second problem is less since we have a percentage for the leg paymets
20:57<Nite>(maybe some cargo -dest or -dist or -dust whatever will help soon)
20:57<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but it's only cosmetic, it doesn't solve the actual problem
20:57<Yexo>and the same problem holds: it's impossible to predict how the cargo will travel when it arrives at the main station
20:57-!-Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4db0ef44.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: gn8]
20:58<Eddi|zuHause>"realistically", the payment for long distance and for local transport should be completely separate
20:58<Yexo>cargodest won't help with that
20:58<Nite>true could always travel through 100 beaming stations
20:58<Yexo>althouth with cargodest/dist it's easier to predict the direction, it's not foolproof as cargo can still be transferred the wrong way
20:59<Nite>clearly it is already calculated how much a transferring train gets payed in the end
21:00<Eddi|zuHause>my suggestion was: at game start there is a full network of "walking" cargo with low speed and capacity. you can provide transport that is faster than the generic network, and parts of the cargo will travel this way. that makes a basic level of competing without having actual competitors
21:00<Eddi|zuHause>but then you can pay each leg individually
21:00<Eddi|zuHause>as "unfair" transportation will just result in the cargo using the generic network
21:00<Nite>still you could beam faster than teh "walking"
21:01<Eddi|zuHause>Nite: i'm completely not talking about "beaming"
21:01<Eddi|zuHause>Nite: we already established hat this can not be solved.
21:01<Nite>It can!
21:02<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: Rubidiums suggestion earlier might work
21:02<Yexo><@Rubidium> for final payment: min(sum of legs payments (including last), payment original source - destination) <- that one
21:02<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: no, that can't solve either of the scenarios
21:02<Nite>thx thats what i wanted to get to
21:03<Nite>why cant it solve it?
21:03<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: it doesn't solve the problems you mentioned, but it does solve the "beam gets a lot of money" problem
21:03<Eddi|zuHause>oh, you're talking about beaming again...
21:03<Nite>if all legs where subtracted you would end up in the red when beaming (!)
21:03<Yexo>a walking network is interesting, but a lot of work to code
21:04<Yexo>you'd probably end up coding cargodest/cargodist first :p
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21:04<Nite>the subtraction of legs would be maybe easier to code
21:04<Eddi|zuHause>well, yes, it can't work without destinations...
21:05<Nite>btw when you are not talking about antibeming - what then?
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21:05<Eddi|zuHause>i'm talking about transferring in general
21:05<Yexo>Nite: see "<Eddi|zuHause> but i think the whole transfer system has a wrong approach" and the next few minutes
21:05<Nite>well it works fien in general
21:06<Eddi|zuHause>no, it does not.
21:06<Eddi|zuHause>ships and road vehicles are heavily penalised for their low speed
21:06<Nite>you can transfer as you like - what does not work here
21:06<Eddi|zuHause>so intermodal transfer is "unfair"
21:07<Eddi|zuHause>while it completely denies the fact that it's not possible to drive a train into the town center, or across ocean
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21:07<Nite>you should transfer because you need it (because of landscape/the map) not because it is so lucrative
21:07<Eddi|zuHause>and so payment across sea or within cities must obey other rules than simple time/distance
21:08<Eddi|zuHause>no, it should be especially lucrative because it's so difficult
21:08<Nite>it is possible to drive a trian everywhere
21:08-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1FC7F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:08<Nite>rellay whatr are you talking about?
21:09<Yexo>I give up
21:09<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: you have some nice idea, but I think it's way too much work to implement
21:10<Yexo>good night
21:10<Nite>im not looking for a rewrite of the transfer sys at all - it simply works
21:11<Nite>BUT it makes beaming possible while still getin g paid
21:11<Nite>good nigt
21:11<Eddi|zuHause>Nite: the problem with transfer is: any transfer will make you earn less money than direct transport
21:12<Nite>that is not a problem that is good!
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21:12<Nite>at least i think so
21:12<Eddi|zuHause>no, that is a problem, because it encourages point-to-point lines instead of balanced networks
21:13<Nite>a network is not only balanced if you get payed more
21:13<Nite>it is when cargo flows ...
21:13<Nite>and tath cargo flows better with beaming should be penalized
21:14<Eddi|zuHause>you with the beaming again...
21:14<Nite>i knbow you talking bout something else ...
21:15<Nite>but yes i talk about beaming because it annoys me
21:16<Nite>your idea would even encourage beaming (again)
21:16<Nite>still i liked rubidiums idea
21:19<Nite>i also talked about teh non transfer beaming ... i know you dont care eddi
21:30<Nite>cya
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21:38<Nite>all afk?
21:39<+Pikka>yep
21:40<Nite>ah liek you ;)
21:40<Nite>well i thought about beaming recently
21:41<Nite>and i think making short distance deliveries significantly less paid would help.
21:41<Nite>*making tea*
21:47<+Pikka>but what does that do to genuine short-distance routes?
21:52<fjb>But is not the distance between the station signs counted?
21:53<Nite>it is
21:53<fjb>And short distance routes would really suffer. They are quite common in games startig early in the 19th century.
21:54<Nite>with short i mean really short - as short as a station
21:54<fjb>But when "beaming" the station signs are usually still way apart, but the stations are really large, so the games does not see short routes.
21:55-!-bryjen [~bryjen@75.81.201.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
21:55<fjb>You can easily have 30 tiles long stations.
21:56<Nite>i think thats where i clash with others
21:56<fjb>With a station sign at opposite ends that gives more than 60 tiles.
21:56-!-snorre_ is now known as snorre
21:56<fjb>Where do you clash?
21:56<Nite>true and you should get very littel "cash" for that
21:57<Nite>what is "long" or "short" line
21:57<fjb>But the game can not decide how much a vehicle travels between the stations. It only sees the distance between the station signs.
21:57<Nite>if a sataion can be 12 tiels long tna a rout ten times tath should just bring in littel money
21:58<fjb>I have often routes shorter than 60 tiles. Often only 5 or 6 tiles with bus or tram networks in towns.
21:59<Nite>i know it gets more problematic with (inner city) pax
21:59<fjb>My coal trains are often about 16 tiles long. So that is the minimum lenghts of a station.
21:59-!-JVassie [~James@nelocat2.gotadsl.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:59<Nite>but at the moment you can "win the game" with the most ridiculous entworks
22:00<fjb>Now the will make every route which is shorter than 16 tiles useless.
22:00<fjb>TTD is always easy to win with the right settings (e.g. total flat map).
22:00<Nite>and i think it would be kewl to make such a line useless
22:01<fjb>That would discourage most road vehicle traffic.
22:01<Nite>keep in mind transfer station could still be usefull but only to get the cargo to the long route
22:01<fjb>Then build a long route in the mountains with horse carriages in the first game year. Have fun.
22:02<Nite>i know it wont work but horse carriages are more of a (good !) gimmick anyway
22:03<fjb>Did you ever start a game in 1821? They are no gimmick then.
22:03<Nite>further such a feature should off course be variable/configurable - so you can have your early days, wait forever, games
22:03<fjb>They are your only road vehicles for the next 70 years.
22:04-!-De_Ghosty [~s@76-10-146-247.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:04<Nite>and yes i did star most last games at 1930 (nars)
22:04<fjb>The the people who love beaming switch that fearture off.
22:04<fjb>would
22:04<Nite>iam mostly reffering to trains
22:05<fjb>TTD is not a train only game.
22:05<Nite>as for pax - pax in towns would be mostly for growing it
22:05<fjb>And most beaming I have seen with road vehicles.
22:05-!-roboboy [996b2198@webchat.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]
22:05<Nite>trains ARE the most fun by far
22:06<fjb>No.
22:06<Nite>you are right beaming happens with rvs often
22:06<Nite>yes they are if it would be voted
22:06<fjb>In my actual game I have about 30 trains and 450 road vehicles.
22:07<Nite>30 trains is laughably sry ;)
22:07<Jolteon>Trains are incredibly tedious.
22:07<Jolteon>I usually don't bother with them.
22:08<fjb>If you would vote for rail station layouts most people would vote for the roro station layout from the wiki. But that does not tell you what creative people do.
22:08<Nite>*lo*
22:09<fjb>See, everybody has a vehicle type he likes or dislikes. And it is not always the same.
22:10<Nite>trains is teh most intresting all others are support - you cant be very crative with ships airplanes - only with rv's and mostly TrAiNs
22:10<Jolteon>I must admit, when playing multiplayer, i am such an airplane whore.
22:10<fjb>You can be really creative with all of them.
22:11<Nite>send airplane from a to b - wait build new airport - repeat. very creative.
22:11-!-De_Ghosty [~s@76-10-172-47.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #openttd
22:11<Nite>thats wyh many servers are no air - especially competition servers
22:11<fjb>Did you ever see a game with many channels and ships? Ships are great for coal, iron ore and other stuff like that.
22:12<Nite>off course they are great but tt would not suceed without the trains part ...
22:12<fjb>It becomes creative with cargodist. Have fune with planes if you are not creative.
22:12<Jolteon>Nite: thats why I do it.
22:12<Jolteon>No thinking.
22:12<Jolteon>No brain powered required.
22:13<Nite>cargodist and planse muist really be nice.
22:13<Jolteon>Trains annoy me to hell and back.
22:13<fjb>I often have games where road vehicles generate the most income (especially with UKRS).
22:13<Jolteon>So much planning, and effort.
22:13<Jolteon>and with a bit of good going, it's so easy to make the most profit on the server from using planes only
22:14<Nite>wht i want at the momant is a game you cant chaet by ridiciolous station setups that are just exploiting glitches
22:14<Jolteon>What annoys me are those that build an airport or train station, then hog the entire town by placing bus stops links to the airport
22:14<Nite>(sry for typos)
22:14<Jolteon>so it's impossible for anyone else to get any real stuff from the town
22:15<fjb>You can always cheat. Cheating is a social problem. Solving social problems with technical solutions never works.
22:15<Nite>tahts a case of who comes first often
22:15<Nite>yes but exploiting is not exactly chaeting
22:15<fjb>Nobody can "hog" a town. Make a better service and you will get the cargo/pasengers.
22:16<Nite>and the better the balancig/mechanics get the fewer glictch xploiting you have
22:16<Nite>(blocking however will most likely never be defeted by an algorhytm/mechanic)
22:16<fjb>Making one class of transports unusable is no good solution.
22:17<Nite>true
22:17<Nite>but it wouldnt be unusable - a short support line would be just that, but no moneyamaker.
22:18<fjb>Only allowing really long routes does not solve anything. Make the stations 100 tiles large and you pribit small maps at all.
22:18<Nite>noone play with 100 tiels stationspread
22:19<Nite>but true larger maps with further appart sources/destenations solve a lot
22:19<fjb>Sure? People who love beaming would set it that high.
22:19<fjb>But large maps can get boring.
22:20<Nite>i know finding glitches as beaming is fun too
22:20<Nite>but agaion in many serious games beaming sucks
22:20<fjb>Somebody (I think Rubidium) showed a very busy very small map a while ago here. Really interesting.
22:22<fjb>If you play multiplayer beaming can be prohibited by server rule. Who beams gets kicked. If you play singleplayer play like you like. Let others play their style.
22:23<Nite>in really busy maps that is a lot of work for the admin
22:24<fjb>Usually players are also looking if others are cheating.
22:24<Nite>still i see that good maps with far apart industreis solve most
22:24<Jolteon>'beam'? O_o
22:24<fjb>Beaming is usually obvious.
22:24<Nite>true
22:25<Nite>but its hard to forbid it completely
22:26<Nite>because sometimes you need all the sattionspread for a simple transfer - and then - this should not be paid een be a t a cost
22:27<fjb>beaming: Placing to very lage stations near ech other (not building the full station, but only 2 tiles with a big gap in between) and have a vehicle travel only the very stort distance between the neares tiles of the two stations.
22:28<fjb>Nobody need a big station spread. You can always feed with road vehicles. So why not making the station spread only one tile?
22:28-!-DaleStan [~Dale@c-24-12-4-37.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
22:29<Nite>station spread = station size
22:30<Nite>so you need normal station size (8 - 14 quite common)
22:30<fjb>Ok, you need that with long trains or train stations with airports.
22:31<fjb>14 tiles is short for a cargo main line station.
22:31<fjb>but 14 tiels is long for a tram route.
22:32<Nite>after all making shourt routes unprofitable should always be an option - freely configurable like most new features (too many to name)
22:32<fjb>You like to play with trains on long routes on big maps. Others don't. So don't force them to your stily.
22:33<fjb>But even on the same server other people will not prefer your style and happily build bus networks.
22:33-!-Chris_Booth [~Chris_Boo@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust443.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:34-!-ecke [~ecke@188.75.128.2] has quit [Quit: ecke]
22:34<fjb>And with cargodist much traffic likes short distances.
22:34-!-DaleStan [~Dale@c-24-12-4-37.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
22:36<Nite>i said just taht - no forcing but another great option!
22:36<fjb>Cargodist also effectively kills companies with only a few airports cluttered over the map.
22:37<Nite>that many including me would like
22:37<Nite>i only knew cargodEst never was on a cargodist server
22:37<fjb>I see that that option only forces everybody to play your style as long as it is active. You still can beam the distance of the largest allowed station.
22:38<fjb>Or even twice that sice.
22:39<Nite>yeas and you should beam but dont get paid, and yes a gain it is a personal favour, and no i will not force you to play like that with a gun on your neck ... ;)
22:39<fjb>You will not get money when not playing your stile with that oprion active.
22:40<Nite>...
22:40<fjb>That is kind of forcing, but ok, you have the option not to play at all.
22:40<Nite>true - thats the point
22:41<fjb>And with the not unusual allowed station size of 20 tiles you can still beam 40 tiles.
22:41<Nite>anyopne can still play tto if not liking new options styles
22:41-!-Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has quit [Quit: Sleep]
22:41<Nite>please stop feeling forced ...
22:42<fjb>Your option does not solve the beaming problem, it only forces all players to play your style.
22:42<Nite>.. or i force you to!
22:42<fjb>Tell me other option tham your style do players have with that game option active?
22:42<Nite>and in this "style" it woudl be solved htat beming has a much smaller role
22:42<Nite>anbd thats what i want.
22:43<fjb>I could even with that option make a beaming chain.
22:44<Nite>you have no option than build nice looking long creative lines.
22:44<Nite>the beaming chain had to come :)
22:44-!-DaleStan [~Dale@c-24-12-4-37.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:45<fjb>Only long train lines. That may plaese you, but is by far not really creative.
22:45<fjb>And the beaming chain kills you whole idea.
22:45<fjb>I have never seen a player using beaming but not making a chain.
22:48<fjb>You can prohibit beaming only by disallowing stations which have disconnected parts together with disallowing large stations.
22:48<Nite>best idea still was rubidiums: total income subtracted by leg leg profit
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22:49<Nite>i have just seen a player beaming to neigborhood without a chain, thats what startet all of this
22:49<Nite>comes even moer clear that good placing of industry on map does a lot ...
22:49<fjb>That was a beginner at beaming. Or early in the game.
22:51<fjb>Short distance road vehicle (or even train) traffic can also be very creative.
22:52<Nite>no it wasnt a beginner, but yes early game
22:54<Nite>what was disliked there was that the beaming tactics wa so much better "paid" than others with "beautiful" lines - leading to a rulo on that server
22:54<fjb>A clear rule forbidding beamig would have solved that problem.
22:55<fjb>And what beaitiful lines are is very argualble.
22:56<Nite>well beaming are no lines at all so it cant be "beautiful lines"
22:56<Nite>the rul was set
22:57<fjb>Live with beaming or count it as cheating.
22:57<fjb>So it was cheating. That player deserves a warning. If he still does it kick him.
22:58<Nite>all that known
22:58<fjb>So what brings a new option that enforces a special type of game but does not make beaming impossible or useless?
22:59<Eddi|zuHause><Nite> cargodist and planse muist really be nice. <-- cargodist and planes is hopeless... especially without passenger reduction
22:59<fjb>Overfull planes or no passengers at all. :-)
22:59<Nite>comes to my mind the real problem is less beaming but clusters of industreis that work together
23:00-!-De_Ghosty [~s@76-10-172-47.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:00<fjb>You need nearby industries early in the game.
23:00<Eddi|zuHause>Nite: there's a setting for that
23:01<Nite>yeah but not toooo nearby
23:01<Eddi|zuHause>"same industries close" and "same industries in town"
23:01<Nite>no there is no setting for that
23:01<fjb>What is too nearby?
23:01<Nite>iam not meaning same industreis but industries that work together in same town and close together
23:02<Eddi|zuHause>why is that a problem?
23:02<Nite>too nearby = nearby as with same industreis
23:02<Eddi|zuHause>you don't get a lot of profit from short distance traffic
23:02<fjb>And really try a game with eGRVS and NARS 2 wich starts 1831. But better switch inflation of.
23:02<Nite>that you can earn very much by having no track at all
23:03<Nite>it is all about an ecs game and nars2 started 1930
23:03<Eddi|zuHause>how many times can you give the same argument over and over again?
23:03-!-De_Ghosty [~s@69-196-188-243.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #openttd
23:03<fjb>And it would be a game option to implement only for one special game.
23:03<Nite>that ecactly is teh problem you DO get alot of profit from short distance traffic
23:04<Nite>wrong not only for one game
23:04<Nite>fjb you allways assume i am the only one not playing like you
23:05<fjb>For the game the distance is not short. the distance is the distance between the station signs, not what the vehicle actually travels.
23:05<Eddi|zuHause>Nite: please take a breath, and now imagine the solution from 3 hours ago were implemented. how is it still a problem for short distance transports?
23:05<fjb>Nite: You always assume the I'm the only one not playing like you.
23:05<Eddi|zuHause>ok, it was 2 hours...
23:06<Nite>for some reason fjb is always contradicting :D
23:06<Nite>what solution you mean ecactly?
23:06<fjb>Because your idea does noct solve the annoying beaming in any way.
23:07<Nite>i thik it would
23:07-!-rhaeder [~quix0r@188.109.253.221] has joined #openttd
23:08<Nite>anyway i think teh options for similar industreis should also be available for Same type industries.
23:08<fjb>Every distance shorted than 2 times largest station size would have to be unprofitable following your idea.
23:09<Nite>yes something like that.
23:09-!-rhaeder2 [~quix0r@dslb-094-221-128-075.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:09<fjb>So usually every distance shorter 40 tiles (or more 60 tiles at the servers I saw).
23:10<Eddi|zuHause>Nite: newgrf industries can do that. so you can make an industry set resembling the original industries, but override the placement check
23:11*fjb thinks that even 40 tiles is a nice long route early in the game.
23:12<Nite>so in the end having same industries close but no working together industries close - or no industreis at all close
23:12<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: imho, early industries need more tweaks. generally they should be smaller but more frequent
23:12<Nite>well i cant mak a newgrf, is this possible with ecs?
23:12<Eddi|zuHause>ECS has very insane placement rules
23:13<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know the details, though
23:13<Nite>... likes and dislikes are really different i tink they shuld be big but not frequent ... :)
23:13<fjb>Nite: No, learn to code. It is not that hard. At least not as hard as convincing us implementing your idea about making short routes totally wothless.
23:13<Nite>didnt know htey had own placement rules
23:14<Nite>suggesting is different from convincing btw
23:15<fjb>You have to convince us if you want it implemented.
23:15<Eddi|zuHause>Nite: they can be all sorts of things: "must be near a town with more than 1200 inhabitants", "must be near a town with fewer than 300 inhabitants", "must be near water", "must have 6 trees and 2 houses", "must be full moon on a wednesday", ...
23:16<fjb>And I thing the idea is plain stupid because it does not solve the problem but is a burdon for players with a different style tham yours.
23:16<Nite>(guess if someone offers fjb icecream he starts argueing why someone wants to convince and force him to eat iccream he dont likes instad of saying "not intrestet")
23:17-!-elmz [~elmz@ti0031a380-0504.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:17<Nite>(and it would be really stupid to make iceream becaus fjb dont likes it)
23:18<DaleStan>Remind me again how old you are? Because even if you are three, acting like it is not generally productive in fora where we can so easily /ignore you.
23:18<fjb>It's the other way round. I think everybody should be free to play his own stile. But you propose an option that would make all players play your style.
23:18<Nite>ok so the industry placing seems to have enaugh options ...
23:21<Nite>then very nture of an OPTION is exactly tath you are NOT FORCED to use it but can configure it the way you like. Like having many different sorts of icecreams.
23:22<fjb>He doesn't understand it. I'm giving up.
23:22<Nite>you dont understand
23:22<Nite>im NOOOOOOOT FOOOOOORCING you or anybody else ...
23:23<Nite>who where you reffering to dalestan?
23:24-!-DanMacK [~here@65.94.201.53] has joined #openttd
23:26-!-rhaeder1 [~quix0r@dslb-094-220-143-207.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd
23:26<Eddi|zuHause>the new guy who is talking about the same thing non-stop for three hours
23:26<Nite>that me?
23:27<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know...
23:27<@Rubidium>no, it's definitely me
23:27<DaleStan>No. Your twin brother.</sarcasm>
23:27<Nite>it wasnt non stop ...
23:28<Eddi|zuHause>no, _I_ am napoleon.
23:28-!-rhaeder [~quix0r@188.109.253.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:29<Nite>soemone must chat soemething here ...
23:29<Eddi|zuHause>you realize it's 4:30 AM?
23:29<Nite>fully aware
23:30*snorre reading backlog
23:30<Nite>uh oh
23:30<Eddi|zuHause>that's funny... /whois can resolve mibbit addresses to the real IP. is that a new feature?
23:31<@Rubidium>DaleStan: is there a really good reason to upx pack grfcodec? It fails on the more exotic platforms like alpha, hppa and s390 (i.e. some of Debian's platforms)
23:32<DaleStan>Only historical.
23:33<snorre>its not about making short routes totally wothless, but make the profit correspond to the longer ones, (or actually distance travelled)
23:33<DaleStan>Though I could try to invent something about trying to improve UPX's support of the more exotic platforms.
23:33<Eddi|zuHause>someone should ban these hysterics, they make life so difficult
23:33<Nite>*wonders if fjb did just fool/troll around*
23:34<Eddi|zuHause>insulting the regulars is surely a way to make an impression :p
23:34<Nite>who hysterics?
23:35<Eddi|zuHause>hysterical raisins.
23:35<Nite>talkign in riddles
23:35<@Rubidium>DaleStan: UPX simply doesn't support it (according to their website), although and easy way to disable it would be fine; blathijs came up with http://www.stdout.nl/tmp/optional-upx.patch.txt which might be useful to do that
23:35<@Rubidium>have you also seen his remarks regarding Makefile.common looking like it's not used?
23:36<DaleStan>Doesn't sound familiar.
23:38<DaleStan>No, Nite. "Talking in GIYF-ics" (Note also the spelling of "talking.")
23:39<@Rubidium>DaleStan: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd/link/1268851044#1268851044 and about 2 minutes later
23:42<Nite>sry for typos ...
23:42<Nite>what are "giYF-ics" :-O
23:42<Nite>?
23:43<@Rubidium>the irony...
23:43<@Rubidium>what the fuck is wtf?
23:44<Nite>*even more confused*
23:44<Eddi|zuHause>yes. :)
23:47<Nite>ok ok forgot to GI everythink i dont get in the first place ...
23:47<Nite>... thing
23:48-!-De_Ghosty [~s@69-196-188-243.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:50<Nite>d
23:51-!-De_Ghosty [~s@206-248-158-130.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #openttd
23:51<Nite>dale
23:51<Nite>sry
---Logclosed Thu Mar 18 00:00:15 2010