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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-03-18

---Logopened Thu Mar 18 00:00:15 2010
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00:14<Nite>cya
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01:04<+Pikka>hmm
01:05*Pikka wonders if opensfx has broken newsoundeffects property 0A override old sound? :o ... if that property ever worked in openttd?
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02:12<+Pikka>spammin' up the olde forum suggestions...
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02:56<Terkhen>good morning
03:05<+Pikka>hello Terkhen
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04:37<DJNekkid>there is no possible choise of 1.0.0 RC3 on bananas...
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05:47<andythenorth>morning morning
05:52<Ammler>Hello andy andy
06:13<andythenorth>Pikka: brain fail. what's wrong with my var 67 check? :o
06:13<andythenorth>http://paste.openttd.org/225292
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06:23<andythenorth>hmm.. parameter should be dword, not byte?
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: i don't think that has been broken
06:29*Pikka returns
06:30<+Pikka>hmm eddi.. it doesn't seem to be working for me, but maybe I'm doing something wrong.
06:31<+Pikka>andy: it's a type 89 so the ranges need to be dword sized, not byte sized.
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06:32<+Pikka>00 80 00 00 //lookat needs to be 00 80 \d0 \d0
06:32<andythenorth>do, copy and paste fail
06:32<andythenorth>:P
06:32<andythenorth>doh
06:33<+Pikka>it's okay, happens to the best of us :P
06:33<andythenorth>hard to type with a baby in one hand
06:33<+Pikka>I'm sure :P
06:34<Noldo>andythenorth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_sling#Simple_pieces_of_cloth_.28SPOC.29
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06:47<HackaLittleBit>morning
06:48<+Pikka>says you, buddy!
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06:55<andythenorth>"The return value has the format rrccdddd" - I want cc. I mask with \dx00FF0000 right?
06:56<@peter1138>or shift 16, mask with FF
06:56<@peter1138>why use \dx ?
06:57<andythenorth>habit
06:58<andythenorth>shift 16 is 2F (if another var triple follows)?
06:58<andythenorth>hmm
06:58<HackaLittleBit>hello guys, I am trying to find additional info for the use of TIC TOC , I wan't to post in the forum but I would like to avoid double post :)
06:59<@peter1138>sorry, shift 10
06:59<@peter1138>16 was decimal, heh
06:59<HackaLittleBit>can somebody help please
07:00<@peter1138>it's described in debug.h
07:00<HackaLittleBit>only instuctions I found were in debug.h
07:01<HackaLittleBit>So I thought to make a post to give additional usage info
07:01<@peter1138>what additional info would you need?
07:01<@peter1138>it tells you how to use it
07:01<HackaLittleBit>I have been playing around last night
07:02<HackaLittleBit>and for example resizing ow window influences results
07:02<HackaLittleBit>I wan't to make post to facilitate for future post
07:02<HackaLittleBit>sorry
07:02<HackaLittleBit>use
07:03<HackaLittleBit>I can post her first if you like
07:03<HackaLittleBit>hold on
07:03<HackaLittleBit>
07:03<HackaLittleBit>Hello everyone.
07:03<HackaLittleBit>
07:03<HackaLittleBit>I just wanted to give some additional comments about how to use of TIC TOC with success.
07:03<HackaLittleBit>The way of implementing TIC TOC is described in debug.h
07:03<HackaLittleBit>
07:03<HackaLittleBit>Additional to that you have to do the following things to get consistent results.
07:03<HackaLittleBit>
07:03<HackaLittleBit>1. Prepare a game and save in "paused state".
07:03<HackaLittleBit>2. resize the game window in order to have space to put you mouse outside of the window.
07:03<HackaLittleBit>3. Close main window with the "X" in the top right corner so that the operating system
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07:03<HackaLittleBit> remember last screen size.
07:03<HackaLittleBit>4. Start the game and load your test game.
07:03<HackaLittleBit>5. Start game and move your mouse out of the window.
07:04<HackaLittleBit> Important to know is that if you want to accelerate the game you have to do that "BEFORE"
07:04<HackaLittleBit> you unpause the game and do this consistent.
07:04<HackaLittleBit>6. Try to avoid that external programs start up (like updating etc) because it will influence the results.
07:04<HackaLittleBit>7. Do not touch you PC until you are done. Do not resize the window etc. because again it will affect the results.
07:04<HackaLittleBit>
07:04<HackaLittleBit>This was written for windows XP if anybody has suggestion or useful comments I will add them to this first post.
07:04<@peter1138>all bogus information
07:04<HackaLittleBit>
07:04<Terkhen>HackaLittleBit: check the latest parts of the Improved acceleration for road vehicles thread
07:04<HackaLittleBit>P.S. to the developers, It would be nice to have some tab characters in the output string in order to make facilitate loading in spreadsheet.
07:04<HackaLittleBit>
07:04<HackaLittleBit>
07:04<HackaLittleBit>
07:04<HackaLittleBit>Hello everyone.
07:04<HackaLittleBit>
07:04-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!*Hans@87.196.211.*] by peter1138
07:04-!-HackaLittleBit was kicked from #openttd by peter1138 [HackaLittleBit]
07:05<andythenorth>peter1138: does this look right to you? \2sto 1A 20 \dx100 //store in register 100h
07:05<@peter1138>i have no idea, i never write nfo with anything other than hex
07:06<+Pikka>looks fine, andy
07:06-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!*Hans@87.196.211.*] by peter1138
07:06<andythenorth>hmm
07:06<andythenorth>problem must be here then: 67 01 20 00FF0000 //get industry count
07:07<@peter1138>you should paste the full line, really
07:07<DaleStan>You're storing in the third byte; are you sure that's what you wanted?
07:07<+Pikka>eh.. you should probably shift it like peter said
07:07<+Pikka>67 01 30 FF 00 00 00
07:08*andythenorth tries
07:08<DaleStan>...(or maybe the second) ...
07:09<+Pikka>peter1138: wondering if opensfx has broken newsoundeffects property 0A override old sound? :o ... if that property ever worked in openttd? any ideas? D:
07:10<@peter1138>opensfx is just a different set of sounds
07:10*andythenorth wins at var 67 (with much help!)
07:10<+Pikka>hmm
07:10*Pikka wonders if it ever worked, then, or if I'm just doing it wrong
07:11<andythenorth>Pikka: what are you seeing / not seeing?
07:11<@peter1138>you need to load the sound, then do the override
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07:12<+Pikka>yes... I have the sounds going in with action 11, and then I set property 0a for one of them to \b14, which should be the level crossing sound? but it no workz.
07:13<HackaLittleBit>my apologies
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07:14<@peter1138>hmm, did you offset the id with 73?
07:15<+Pikka>yes, of course. I have new-newsounds working just fine in the same grf (in vehicle callbacks, for example), it's just the property 0a replacement that doesn't seem to be working.
07:17<@peter1138>hmm, apparently it's sound 12
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07:18<@peter1138>14 is train breakdown
07:20<+Pikka>hm
07:20<+Pikka>where's the list? I was going off the sample.cat files
07:20<+Pikka>I couldn't find a list anywhere. :)
07:21<@peter1138>err, well
07:21<@peter1138>it's listed as ,...SND_0E_LEVEL_CROSSING,
07:21<@peter1138>in openttd
07:22<@peter1138>but it's not 0E
07:22<@Rubidium>yeah, the IDs are genuinely mixed up
07:24<@peter1138>mmm
07:24<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I _might_ be close to your idea of limiting industry closure to 1 in a given time period :)
07:24<@Rubidium>http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/file/be3bc49d5985/src/sound.cpp#l197
07:25<@peter1138>hmm
07:25<@peter1138>why do we have that?
07:25<@Rubidium>hysterical raisins?
07:25<@peter1138>is it the same in ttd?
07:25<@peter1138>(and ttdp)
07:26<@Rubidium>it's the same in 0.1.4
07:27<@peter1138>Pikka, so does it work with 14 in ttdp?
07:27<+Pikka>I don't know peter, a lot of the rest of the grf won't work in ttdp
07:27<@peter1138>heh
07:28<+Pikka>I see
07:28<+Pikka>0 and 1 are misplaced
07:28<@peter1138>it's possible that we should be mapping the id
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07:29<+Pikka>it works with 12 :)
07:36<blathijs>planetmaker: Any chance the OpenMSX midi's could be tweaked to work completely with timidity+freepats? I'm getting a bunch of errors about unsupported instruments on each song. Not sure if that's a realy problem (I can't hear what's missing), but perhaps it's a matter of choosing a slightly different variant of some instruments?
07:42<Ammler>blathijs: maybe you should post that in the tt-forums thread
07:42<Ammler>or isn't that part of the composers?
07:44<blathijs>Ammler: Dunno if the composers have access to timidity and freepats to check. I'll ask planetmaker first, since he appears to be coordinating openmsx :-)
07:44<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause etc.
07:44<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/industry_closure
07:45<Ammler>blathijs: afaik, he only package it...
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>the mime type is broken?
07:47<blathijs>Hmm, seems openmsx also includes sampling plus material? That sounds weird for midi files..
07:47<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/industry_closure.txt
07:47<Ammler>blathijs: how can I see, which soundfont I am using?
07:47<blathijs>Oh wait, it's dual licensed
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07:48<Ammler>yeah, the license is quite confusing...
07:48<Ammler>pm likes to keep the option to chose the final license ;-)
07:49<blathijs>Ammler: /etc/timidity/timidity.cfg should be able to tell you
07:49<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: hmm....I missed some stuff out
07:49<andythenorth>sorry
07:49<blathijs>Ammler: If you like to keep options open, just use the X11 license, or the WTFPL or something :-)
07:49<blathijs>but GPL will do just fine :-)
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07:50<Ammler>blathijs: I fully agree with you. Tell that pm :-)
07:50<Ammler>I gave up...
07:50<@peter1138>heh, timidity does not use soundfonts
07:51<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: fixed
07:52<blathijs>peter1138: Uh, what? I'm pretty sure it uses the freepats sound font here.
07:52<@peter1138>it uses freepats, it's not a soundfont though
07:53<blathijs>What's the difference?
07:53<@peter1138>a soundfont is an sf2 file which contains all the samples
07:54<Ammler>I have pat files
07:54<@peter1138>the pat files originated from the gravis ultrasound format
07:54<@peter1138>due to incredibly low memory only a few pats could be loaded at once
07:54<@peter1138>which is why they're separate files
07:55<Ammler>http://pastebin.ca/1844508 <-- that is one of the cfgs
07:57<@peter1138>freepats hasn't been updated since 2006
07:57<@peter1138>so it's quite likely that everyone has the latest version
07:57<@peter1138>hmm
07:59<blathijs>peter1138: Yeah I saw that. One would have hoped freepats would be nearing completion after all this time, but instead development seems to have stalled...
08:00<Ammler>suse package has quite some patches loaded with timidity
08:26<HackaLittleBit>Rubidium: thanks :)
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09:54<@Belugas>hello
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10:02<chungy>hey, is anybody aware of issues with the ipv6 services with openttd? It is very painful for me to browse the website or use the NewGRF in-game downloading service as the v6 connect just times out and I have to wait for it to fall back onto v4
10:03<@Rubidium>IPv6 seems to work fine
10:03<@Rubidium>what's usually the case is that you locally get an IPv6 and DNS resolves the IPv6 but there is no route from your IPv6 to the internet
10:03<+glx>no IPv6 problems for me
10:04<chungy>It's only an issue with OpenTTD though, I can reach other v6 sites just fine
10:04<Noldo>ping6 ?
10:05<chungy>http://pastebin.com/yvQaREms
10:05<@Rubidium>and a traceroute6?
10:05<+glx>broken peering maybe
10:08<chungy>just seems to get around here and nothing further: http://pastebin.com/3P4tDsCs
10:09<chungy>well it shows a 19th, 20th, and 21st hop by the time I pasted that ...
10:09<chungy>but also no-response
10:10<@Rubidium>so some routing-on-the-internet problem; not something we can fix :(
10:10*peter1138 wonders if there's any ipv6 tunnel provider that will do bgp...
10:10<@Rubidium>I can reach your ipv6 google server
10:11<@peter1138>oh, HE do that
10:11<chungy>well if you look at my irc hostname you can even ping6 me, should work fine
10:12<@peter1138>beeeeeef
10:13<chungy>ironically enough this actually works better on my laptop whose wifi driver totally hates anything ipv6 related (so I can only reach v4 from it)...
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10:23<Eddi|zuHause>in the german forum there's a feature request: conditional jump on timetable delay
10:25<JVassie>what does it do?
10:25<JVassie>sounds interesting
10:25<JVassie>*what should it do
10:25<fjb>Bad busdriver leaving out stations when being late.
10:25<JVassie>oh right
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11:20<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19450 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r19197): animation callbacks for airport tiles where never called
11:21<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19451 /trunk/src/ (airport.h build_vehicle_gui.cpp table/airport_defaults.h): -Cleanup: remove some unused code
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12:35<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19452 /trunk/src/ (lang/slovak.txt strings.cpp): -Change: plural type of Slovak (keso)
12:42<HackaBit>Yexo: I saw it allready damned you were fast
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12:52<enr1x>hello everyone
12:53<andythenorth>@seen everyone
12:53<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: I have not seen everyone.
12:53<andythenorth>:)
12:53<andythenorth>@seen the light
12:53<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: seen [<channel>] <nick>
12:53<andythenorth>@seen the_light
12:53<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: I have not seen the_light.
12:56<fjb>What does "char[] string;" define?
12:57<@Rubidium>in that exact configuration in a struct?
12:57<fjb>Yes.
12:57<fjb>Don't know if that code is working.
12:58<@Rubidium>that's some sort of variadicly sized array (sized by the alloc of the struct)
12:58<fjb>I just saw it while looking for a solution to have variable lenght structs.
12:58<@Rubidium>it must be at the end of the struct
12:59<fjb>That is what I'm looking for.
13:00<fjb>Thank you.
13:02*andythenorth blew up ottd
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13:03<fjb>I will make a big, red cross in the calendar the day you do not do that.
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13:28<DJNekkid>TrueBrain: isnt Bananas your work? There is no 1.0.0 RC3 option one can set on newgrf max/min versions
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13:31<TrueBrain>so .. you are trying to tell me I do a bad job, or how should I read this? :)
13:31<DJNekkid>far from it!
13:31<TrueBrain>just checking ;)
13:31<DJNekkid>i were just wondering if that were to be included sometime soon? :P
13:32<TrueBrain>either wat, RC2 == RC3, BaNaNaS wise :)
13:33<DJNekkid>You see ... NuTracks isnt compatible with RC2, but it is with RC3 :)
13:33<TrueBrain>so you need to enter a custom value I guess ;)
13:33<TrueBrain>as you can see, RCs and Betas are never part of the dropdown
13:33<TrueBrain>in fact, RC2 will become RC3 will become 1.0.0
13:34<TrueBrain>well, that last part is not true I guess ..
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13:35*DJNekkid is already confused, about 3 times :)
13:35<Ammler>set it to 1.0.0 ?
13:35<@Rubidium>that includes RC2
13:35<TrueBrain>1.0.0 will have the release flag set
13:35<TrueBrain>RCs don't
13:36<TrueBrain>(0x10000000 vs 0x108000000 (don't mind the tailing zeros, I am too lazy to count :p)
13:36<@Rubidium>you need to use the custom version and then the decimal newgrf version of RC3 as minimum
13:37<TrueBrain>either way, DJNekkid, last time I explained to Rubidium how he can do the versioning, so I guess you should ask him about the rest ;)
13:37<@Rubidium>ohlala... 8 million bananas downloads... it's growing quicker ever week
13:37<Ammler>i would assume, it is the same as you have in the nfo code...
13:38<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: he should just use the custom version thing
13:38<DJNekkid>i guess i'll just set it to nightlies, and give a note, and when 1.0.0 hits the road, i'll edit it and set it to that...
13:38<Ammler>hmm, but 1.0.0 will include RC2 :-)
13:39<@Rubidium>or no, if the 'release' bit is correct
13:40<Yexo>10004BF7 <- DJNekkid set that as custom version to have RC3 as minimum
13:40<DJNekkid>oki, thanx Yexo
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13:43<Ammler>confusing, why is RC2 in the version menu, but RC3 can't?
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13:48<fjb>Because you don't have to repeat mistakes? :-)
13:49<Ammler>well, that is just GUI, internally those are saved "right" already, I would guess...
13:51<andythenorth>peter1138: flying hovercraft http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8543202.stm?ls
13:51<DJNekkid>Yexo: 10004BF7 tell me:"invalid value"
13:52<andythenorth>new route type: "flying air cushion vehicles"
13:52<Ammler>DJNekkid: convert to dec
13:52<Ammler>@base 16 10 10004bf7
13:52<@DorpsGek>Ammler: 268454903
13:52<Yexo>oh right, I forgot the custom field needs a decimal value
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13:53<DJNekkid>yea, goodie!
13:53<DJNekkid>that worked :)
13:54<andythenorth>is there a quick way to compile if I've only changed a lang file?
13:55-!-De_Ghosty [~s@75-119-249-8.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:55<@Rubidium>just run make
13:55<@Rubidium>it should only recompile the language file
13:55<@Rubidium>telling you how to run strgen manually takes way way longer
13:55<andythenorth>:)
13:55<andythenorth>so 'make bundle' is not my friend in this case
13:56<openttnoob>For installing opengfx/opensfx do I just toss them in a folder then install openttd in same folder?
13:56<@Rubidium>openttnoob: the data sub folder
13:57<openttnoob>Alright thanks
13:57<@Rubidium>andythenorth: oh, you're using the bundled OS X binary... that complicates things even further
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13:59<Ammler>ah, that explains, why you had troubles to start openttd from console ;-)
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14:01<Ammler>andythenorth: afaik, bundling openttd isn't a requirement, you should be able tun "unbundled" openttd
14:01<@Rubidium>Ammler: should, yes... but Bjarni wrote/tested that part :(
14:02<Ammler>pm does it that way...
14:02<@peter1138>heh
14:02<@peter1138>"tested"
14:03<@Rubidium>yeah, but... he said the lzo stuff worked and others said it didn't. So what works for one on OS X does not necessarily work for the others.
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14:11<HackaBit>peter1138 have a look at FS#3304 pls there you can see the result of my TIC TOC exercise
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14:15<HackaBit>I have to go now to pick up the kids :), bye
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14:20<@peter1138>that really fucking annoys me
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14:38<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19453 /trunk/src/ (aircraft_cmd.cpp airport.cpp airport.h): -Codechange: split getting the initial aircraft position to a new function
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19454 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: czech - 3 changes by Hadez, TheLamer
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frisian - 4 changes by Fopper
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: greek - 6 changes by fumantsu
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: hebrew - 2 changes by dnd_man
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: indonesian - 3 changes by prof
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15:39*andythenorth ponders something
15:40<andythenorth>implement industry cb 14B for all the wrong reasons
15:40<andythenorth>or leave something in place that might once in a blue moon blow up
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15:40<Eddi|zuHause>i thought you like blowing things up
15:40<andythenorth>not really
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>why do you do it so often, then? :)
15:41<andythenorth>I like mentioning it on irc
15:41<andythenorth>in this case the 'blow up' is rather limited in scope
15:41<andythenorth>it might lead to an industry closing that shouldn't, or vice versa
15:42<Yexo>what has cb 14B got to do with industry closing?
15:42<Terkhen>people already complain when industries close normally
15:43<andythenorth>Yexo cb 14B and 14C are the only industry cbs I can see that run when an industry is built
15:43<Zuu>Yexo: Is there a keyword/global variable like "this" that refer to the library (main) class inside a library?
15:43<andythenorth>(and I need to stick some values in a register when an industry is built)
15:43<Yexo>Zuu: don't think so
15:43<Zuu>Not the object, but the class type.
15:43*andythenorth discovers cb 14A as well
15:44<Zuu>I seem to need that, otherwise cyclic dependancies between my child classes will not work unless people put them at pre defined places in the global scope.
15:44<Yexo>andythenorth: cb 14A
15:44*andythenorth has a feeling those cbs might not be able to use registers / storage anyway, as the industry may not be built yet
15:44<Yexo>same problem as ^^
15:45*andythenorth decides to ship code that has potential for a weird edge cae
15:45<andythenorth>case /s
15:45*andythenorth discovers a logical flaw in his thinking
15:45<andythenorth>poo
15:46<andythenorth>industries don't close immediately. grrr
15:46<Zuu>Perhaps the best solution is just to put the "child" classes at global scope under a fairly unique name.
15:46<andythenorth>this means the industry count idea is useless :|
15:46*andythenorth returns to his drawing board
15:46<Zuu>At least if you want to be 1.0 compatible.
15:46<Yexo>andythenorth: if you use one bit of the persistant storage as flag "industry is initialized" then you can run the iniitalize code only the first time
15:46-!-sparr [~kvirc@c-24-98-228-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:47<Yexo>Zuu: why do you need to access the name of the main class anyway?
15:47<Zuu>Not the main class itself, but through its static members I can access the sub classes.
15:48<Yexo>I fail to see the problem then
15:48<andythenorth>Yexo: I can't see any good cb to run the initialisation though. Hmmm. Text window cb is probably run quite often?
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15:48<Zuu>Hmm, is SuperLib a valid name of the main class type even if a library user has renamed it?
15:48<Yexo>andythenorth: doesn't matter which callback it is, just run it in the first one that happens
15:49<Yexo>text window cb is only run when the window is open
15:49<Yexo>Zuu: don't think so
15:49<andythenorth>Yup :) But I still have to choose which cb that is
15:49<andythenorth>Probably just production cb I guess
15:49<Yexo>andythenorth: why? just check for initialization bit before you check which cb it actually is
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15:50<andythenorth>Yexo: that is the kind of thinking that gets cookies
15:50<Zuu>Hmm, how is then the problem non-existent?
15:50<Yexo>Zuu: I never said it was non-existent, I just don't understand what you're trying to achieve so what the problem actually is
15:50<Yexo>a small code example could help
15:51<Zuu>I'll make an example
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15:54<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: your method for industry closure (don't allow more than one of same types to close within a certain period)....
15:54-!-ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:55<andythenorth>...would work brilliantly, but I can't see a way to implement it :|
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>hm...
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>bad
15:55<andythenorth>I thought I had it, but I made a silly mistake
15:55<Yexo>which way is that?
15:56<andythenorth>Yexo: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/industry_closure.txt
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>it certainly would be easier with global registers
15:56<andythenorth>indeed
15:56<andythenorth>as would many other things
15:56<andythenorth>like....electricity :)
15:56<Yexo>global registers are too prone to abuse
15:56<Yexo>like an industry grf using the same global registers as a houses newgrf
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>grf-local global registers
15:57<Yexo>that'd break horrible
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15:57<andythenorth>Yexo: definitely grf-local
15:57<Yexo>that could work
15:57<andythenorth>an advanced varaction 2 to write grf parameters would do it
15:57<andythenorth>possibly
15:57<andythenorth>hmmm....am I missing something obvious about offsetting industry counts by one additional month
15:58*andythenorth reaches for a pencil
15:59<Zuu>Yexo: http://paste.openttd.org/225296
15:59<Zuu>The error is on line 41
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16:00<Yexo>Zuu: I see no way around that except splitting it in multiple libraries
16:01*andythenorth offers the view that improved industry closure should be handled by the game, not crazy nfo
16:02<Zuu>Which breaks cyclic dependencies. Which in my opinion is not an option. Then I rather put my sub-libraries under almost unique names at global scope.
16:02<Zuu>Eg _SuperLib_Tile
16:02<Ammler>andythenorth: how do default industries "close"?
16:03<Yexo>Zuu: the superlib you uploaded at the forum doesn't have cyclic dependencies
16:03<Zuu>It should have.
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: 5 years protected and then close almost at the same time
16:03<andythenorth>'extinction wave'
16:03<Yexo>Zuu: Tile dpends on Helper, Direction depends on both Tile and Helper
16:03<Yexo>at least from what I've seen
16:04<Zuu>GetTileRelative gives problem.
16:04-!-MeCooL [mecool@94.129.147.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:04<andythenorth>Ammler extinction wave is what I'm trying to prevent, but can't because there is no fricking way to communicate between industries or any kind of global storage
16:04<Yexo>Zuu: why? it's part of Direction and as I said Direction depends on Tile
16:04<andythenorth>*and* industries don't close 'this month' but next :\
16:04<Zuu>It was solved in the Utils.* libs by duplicating that function so that not Direction and Tile depend on each other in both directions.
16:05<Zuu>Tile depends on Direction as well.
16:05<Zuu>Because Tile needs GetTileRelative.
16:05<Yexo>oh, Tile used Direction.GetAdjacentTileInDirection indeed
16:05<Ammler>I didn't have that feeling, the only annoying part was that power plants don't close.
16:05<Yexo>didn't see that the first time
16:05<Ammler>s/was/is/
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: if power plants were allowed to close, they'd close all the time because they don't produce anything
16:06<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I am planning to close power plants, but that's a side issue to the main show here
16:07<Zuu>Its okay, its not easy to keep track of everything in someone else' code.
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16:07<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yeah, that's possible if you make the protection period dependent on incoming cargo
16:07<andythenorth>yup
16:07<andythenorth>I've done that
16:07<andythenorth>got working code for that
16:07<andythenorth>this is frustratingly close to being good
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>that's certainly not a problem :)
16:08<Zuu>I think that if the choice is between requiring people to name the libs exactly like I do or not using _long_uncommon_name globaly then the later is better.
16:08<Yexo>Zuu: a workaround like this works
16:09<Yexo>http://paste.openttd.org/225297
16:09<Yexo>it does put the classes in the global scope but under a prefixed names so they won't class with any other libs names or any global vars used in an AI
16:10<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: my code (when debugged) will prevent industry closing in consecutive months...but
16:10<andythenorth>not several industries of same type closing in same month
16:10<Zuu>Yexo: Indeed that was my idea, to prefix the names by the library name.
16:11<Zuu>If you want to go on extreme I can use sed to rename them to very very long names. :-)
16:11<Yexo>prefixed with the lib name should be enough
16:12<andythenorth>hmmm
16:12<Zuu>Is require(..) just a plain inline include? Ie could I put the different sub libs in your workaround in different files and eliminate the need of a combine script?
16:12<Yexo>the main library classes are renamed by openttd to _internalNA<number>, where <number> is just a counter on the number of libraries
16:13*andythenorth holds his horse a minute
16:13<Yexo>Zuu: it's not a plain include, but it should work
16:13<Yexo>but enums might not work correctly as they are resolved compile time
16:13<Yexo>first the main file is compiled, then executed (when a file is executed everything in the global scope is done and all requires are done)
16:14<Zuu>Oh, yea the enums.. haven't been using them since I learned about the problems and then I've forgot about the problems with them. :-)
16:14<Yexo>when a require() call is executed that file is compile
16:14<Yexo>so you can't use an enum defined in a required file in main.nut
16:14<Zuu>And not from another required file that gets required later by main.
16:14<Yexo>that should work
16:15<Yexo>if you do requir("a.nut"); require("b.nut"); then b.nut can use enums defined in a.nut
16:15<Yexo>but not the other way around
16:15<Yexo>oh, you said that :)
16:15<Zuu>yep :-)
16:17<Zuu>Okay, then hopefully this is (conceptually) resolved then.
16:17<DJNekkid>what would be a good eletrified narrow guage ID?
16:17<DJNekkid>ELNG?
16:20-!-welterde [~welterde@not.welterde.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:21*andythenorth ummm why would the xy co-ordinate of an industry increment every few days? I've done something wrong haven't I :|
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>something just dawned to me: Ubuntu is the AOL amongst the linuxes
16:23<Noldo>so true
16:24*andythenorth sort of gives up on industry closure. bleargh
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>that thought will probably be the cause of my nightmares for the next decade...
16:25<Hirundo>andythenorth: There's nothing wrong, as long as your reference frame is moving at a constant rate with respect to the industry you're fine
16:26<Zuu>I guess my task will then be to write a bit on the wiki about how to make a library :-D
16:29*andythenorth looks at 'related objects'. Maybe there's something unique there
16:30-!-ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
16:30<andythenorth>ah hah
16:30<andythenorth>Town Index....that looks unique enough
16:30<andythenorth>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=VarAction2Cities
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>how should the town index be unique?
16:31<andythenorth>unique *enough* :)
16:31<Yexo>andythenorth: in openttd the town index is not limited to 0..69, it can even be bigger then 255
16:31<DJNekkid>great work peter1138 (i assume), if the laying cost of a track is lower then removal cost, the removal wont bring in more money :)
16:31<andythenorth>if there is more than one industry per town, then there remains a chance of them closing at the same time, but otherwise I can spread them using the town index
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16:33<@peter1138>global registers are grf local, right?
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16:33<andythenorth>ummm....what global registers?
16:33<andythenorth>the ones we have that are hidden somewhere, or the ones we're going to add :)
16:33<andythenorth>?
16:34<@peter1138>dunno, i skimmed a bit but didn't bothered reading it all :p
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>they would need to be, if they existed...
16:34-!-Hyronymus [~chatzilla@s5591a1ba.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd
16:34<andythenorth>shall we make them exist?
16:34<@peter1138>also, registers should not be modifiable from gui callbacks
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>but that's the same for industry persistent storage
16:35<Yexo>peter1138: currently the persistent storage already breaks that (it can be modified from gui callbacks)
16:35<@peter1138>o_O
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16:36<andythenorth>how many global registers should we have?
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>256?
16:37<@Rubidium>peter1138: no, global registers aren't grf local; they're cleared every tick/command though
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>whatever number it is, people are going to complain :)
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: the request is for persistent global registers :)
16:37<@peter1138>i don't even know what we're talking about now :D
16:37<@Rubidium>oh, please don't :)
16:37<andythenorth>16 would be enough for most newgrf purposes. dword sized. we can use crazy bit map stuff if we need to pack more in
16:38<@peter1138>industries alreayd have persistent storage don't they?
16:38<@peter1138>is that not usable?
16:38<@Rubidium>cause in like 2 days they want to be able to read/write in the global registers of another NewGRF
16:38<andythenorth>it's perfectly usable.
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>yes, they have, no, it can't be accessed from different industries
16:38<andythenorth>it just doesn't solve the problem
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16:39<@Rubidium>because the ECS stuff must be able to communicate with eachother and such
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: that can never happen.
16:39*andythenorth three suggestions
16:39<andythenorth>1. persistent global registers (grf local)
16:39<andythenorth>2. write to existing grf parameters with advanced varaction 2
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: except you allow setting a GRFID as parameter for reading the variables
16:40<andythenorth>3. fix industry closure in the game and this might go away
16:40<@Rubidium>2 won't work in MP
16:40<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: doesn't that like happen already?
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16:41<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i don't know what you mean
16:43<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: if http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=VarAction2Houses#GRFID_of_nearby_house_tile_67_ is possible, then doing the inverse shouldn't be that hard
16:43<@Rubidium>i.e. query the GRF ID associated with a given house
16:45<andythenorth>hmmm
16:45<andythenorth>80+ variables
16:47<andythenorth>forgive me for being a dumbass, offset 00 in 80+ variables....does give me *var 80* right?
16:48<Yexo>yes
16:48<Yexo>except for vehicles where offset 10 is var 80
16:50<andythenorth>thanks
16:52-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1FF9D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:54*andythenorth thinks "logical flaws be damned, first lets ship the fucker and see what works"
17:02<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19455 /trunk/src/ (23 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: split all airport information in Station to a seperate class
17:03-!-Lakie` [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has joined #openttd
17:03<@Belugas>better than fuck the shipper and ...
17:03<@Belugas>whatever...
17:03<@Belugas>GONE!@!!!!
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17:23*andythenorth spends an exciting 20 minutes watching the values of persistent storage change in 5 industry windows
17:23<andythenorth>but in real time dammit, *real time*. Thanks Yexo :)
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17:28<andythenorth>"boom"
17:28<andythenorth>"boom boom"
17:28<andythenorth>hmm. that's controversial :|
17:29<andythenorth>I am using monthly production change cb at each industry to count other industries. An industry just closed. I'm getting a count of 4 at some industries and 5 at others
17:29<andythenorth>not unexpected, but unhelpful :o
17:30<andythenorth>or rather, unexpected, but I can see how that happens :|
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>monthly cb is run in the tileloop, right?
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>no, that does not make sense
17:35-!-KritiK [~Maxim@95-26-141-233.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
17:35<frosch123>it is run monthly
17:35<frosch123>:p
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>err... this "Sweeney Todd" movie is insane...
17:37<@Rubidium>who?
17:37<__ln__>what?
17:37*andythenorth is looking for volunteers :)
17:38<andythenorth>this is fun, but if anyone else wanted to help test...
17:38<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/power_station_madness.png
17:38*Rubidium volunteers andythenorth
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>Johnny Depp
17:38<andythenorth>wut?
17:39<andythenorth>my code just closed a power station. the game then built a new one in the same town 9.9
17:39<andythenorth>silly old game
17:40<OwenS>andythenorth: Any reason your power stations are all bigger than normal?
17:41<andythenorth>umm. they are standard layouts from default TTD. the industry window is *much* bigger
17:41<andythenorth>which do you mean?
17:41<OwenS>andythenorth: They contain moire units than the average TTD power station
17:42<OwenS>Just luck of the draw?
17:42<andythenorth>probably
17:42*andythenorth crosses fingers
17:43<andythenorth>well this seems to work
17:44<andythenorth>quite a few of you have been most helpful with this industry code :)
17:44<andythenorth>notably Eddi|zuHause frosch123 and Yexo so thanks
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17:45<andythenorth>and Rubidium and peter1138
17:45<Drunkzilla>Hi, can I ask something? :)
17:45<Yexo>you already did
17:45<@Rubidium>didn't you already?
17:45<Drunkzilla>true.. :d
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but your free question just expired.
17:45*andythenorth would also like to thank his mother, his teachers....
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>next question is 10€
17:46<Drunkzilla>So I'll continue.. send me your account number later :d
17:46<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: to pay to Georg Cantor?
17:46<Drunkzilla>Can I (and how) change *net_frame_freq?
17:46<@Rubidium>yes, in openttd.cfg
17:46<Drunkzilla>Is it hidden or renamed?
17:46<Drunkzilla>I wouldn't be asking, if that parameter were there...
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>frame_freq in [network] or something
17:47<Yexo>it's frame_freq
17:47<Drunkzilla>It's not in mine openttd.cfg :x
17:47<Yexo>it should be under [network]
17:47<Drunkzilla>Is it something newer?
17:48<@Rubidium>might be it doesn't show its "face" by default
17:48<Drunkzilla>Maybe I have some older version? I started with installer of 0.7.5 .. and then newer versions just with .zip
17:48<Zuu>IIRC the grf spec describes how the custom OpenTTD version at BaNaNaS work. Do someone know where at the ttdpatch.net wiki this is found. Searching the wiki for "version" is not of much help. :-(
17:48<Drunkzilla>well.. I guess that I can just add that line?
17:48<OwenS>Drunkzilla: [network]frame_freq
17:48<@Rubidium>Zuu: specs, action 7/9
17:48<Zuu>Or if someone know the version string for 1.0 or nightly that is okay as well. :-)
17:49<Yexo>Zuu: for nightly: revision number + 0x1100000
17:49<Yexo>oh, and extra 0
17:49<@Rubidium>I don't know the version string for 1.0.0 yet
17:49<Drunkzilla>OwenS: thanks, but it really isn't there... Ctrl+f 'frame' or 'freq' and no results... eye check = no results
17:49*andythenorth decides industry code is a mini-exercise in complexity theory for autonomous agents that can't communicate with each other
17:49<Yexo>Drunkzilla: try "net_frame_freq" in the console
17:49<andythenorth>or something
17:50<Yexo>add a value after it to change it
17:50<Zuu>Ok, but if I use the version string for the nightly version when 1.0 branch was created will that work when 1.0 is released and possible even now with RC3?
17:50<Yexo>Zuu: yes
17:50<Drunkzilla>Yexo: current value is 0 .. so I suppose OTTD know the value, but doesn't show in config..
17:50<Yexo>all later versions will have a higher version number
17:51<Drunkzilla>Yexo: thanks!
17:51<Drunkzilla>works
17:51<Yexo>Drunkzilla: then change it by doing "net_frame_freq 10" in the console and see if it then shows up in the config file
17:51<Yexo>ok, great
17:51<Drunkzilla>its not in config.. but its changed in console
17:51<Zuu>Is it correct to assume that the branch was created when the 1.0.0-beta1 tag was made? (that is 18623)
17:51<Yexo>and if you exit openttd now and start it again?
17:51<Yexo>Zuu: no
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: no
17:51<Yexo>Zuu: some days before RC1
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: the branch was before RC1
17:52<Zuu>Oh, yea you're right.
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17:53*andythenorth wants to post "boom" every time an industry closes in a sane way. Think you might kick me though :o
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18:03<Zuu>If I want to set 19008 as minimum revision. Shall I do Dec(Hex(19008) + x11000000)?
18:03<@Rubidium>you want it only for nightlies since r19008?
18:04<Zuu>nightlies and stables since then.
18:04<@Rubidium>use 0x10000000h + 19008d
18:05<@Rubidium>i.e. not 1100...
18:05<Terkhen>andythenorth: http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/screenshots/FIRS.png <--- do you know about this empty station name? I only noticed this at junk yards
18:05<@Rubidium>because that means 1.1 and later
18:05<Zuu>Oh, ok
18:05<andythenorth>Terkhen: no :o
18:05<@Rubidium>and for bananas you want to convert that number to decimal
18:07<andythenorth>Terkhen: could you tell me the version of OTTD and FIRS?
18:07<Zuu>Thanks. If anyone is intrested it becomes 268454464 in dec.
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18:08<Terkhen>OpenTTD r19454, FIRs r621
18:09<andythenorth>thanks
18:09<Terkhen>you are welcome
18:09*Terkhen continues testing
18:10<andythenorth>Hmmm prop 24 for junkyard is 0
18:10<andythenorth>(prop 24 is station name)
18:10<andythenorth>"Setting this to zero disables "\80 Oilfield" and "\80 Mines" without adding any additional station name options."
18:11<Zuu>:0 SuperLib has been downloaded once by me, but 4 times by others without there being any AI up until a minute ago that used it. :-)
18:11*andythenorth wonders if it is a FIRS bug, or an OTTD bug, or a newgrf spec bug?
18:11<Zuu>CluelessPlus has one download (me)
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18:15<andythenorth>it's five years since game start, and all the secondary industries die. *Except* my power plants. And I shall rule etc etc. :D
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18:16*andythenorth refinements
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: small tip. make a savegame at 4 years 10 months, and make your tests from that.
18:18<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: no real need, I control my own 'protection' period, and it's set to 1 month right now :)
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>alright :)
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18:33<Terkhen>good night
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19:13*PeterT kills CIA-6
19:13*CIA-6 dies
19:14<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19456 /trunk/src/ (airport.h newgrf_airport.cpp table/airport_defaults.h): -Codechange; increase the maximum number of airports
19:15<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19457 /trunk/ (12 files in 5 dirs): -Codechange: introduce AirportOverrideManager to keep track of airports if a newgrf can't be found
19:15<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19458 /trunk/src/saveload/airport_sl.cpp: -Fix (r19457): svn add the new file
19:16<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19459 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Feature: make some airport properties modifyable by newgrfs
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>"some" :)
19:17<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: min/max available year, catchment area, noise level and name
19:17<Yexo>no new tile layouts, no new statemachines
19:18<dih>still - it's heading a nice way ;-)
19:20<Eoin>new airports made it to nightly?
19:20<Zuu>So we can at least say that we got NewGRF influenced airports. :-p
19:20<Eoin>i cant remember the technical name :P
19:20<Zuu>Eoin: Not in the way you probably think.
19:21<Eoin>ah
19:21<Zuu>NewGRFs can change a few properties of existing airports.
19:21<Eoin>i see mot
19:21<Eoin>:)
19:21<Eoin>not* :(
19:21<Eoin>what a shame
19:21<Zuu>Well, don't be so disapointed. Give Yexo a high five for his work :-)
19:21-!-Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has joined #openttd
19:22<Yexo>Eoin: just give me some more time :)
19:22<Yexo>new tilelayouts / rotations for the default airports is now pretty easy to add
19:22<Zuu>Exactly, as someone said "patchces are like wine - they need long time to become good"
19:22<Zuu>good wine*
19:23<Eoin>nice Yexo
19:23<dih>Zuu, and some wine sucks :-D
19:24<Eoin>and then its only a matter of time before NewAirports!
19:24<@Rubidium>Zuu: and once sour, you can't fix them?
19:24<Zuu>hope not :-)
19:25<Zuu>(=hope that they can be fixed)
19:25<Zuu>But maybe you need to rewrite them then.
19:27<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19460 /trunk/src/pathfinder/npf/npf.cpp: -Fix [FS#3703]: [NPF] Crash when finding a waypoint before finding the closest depot
19:28<@Rubidium>Zuu: ah, the equivalent of making new wine :)
19:28<Zuu>Yep
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19:42<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19461 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r19355): p1 was still used in two places
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20:23<Eddi|zuHause>how do people get totally distorted 2MB PNGs up in the forum?
20:23<Eddi|zuHause>it's worse than JPG...
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20:24<Yexo>by resizing the image slightly i think
20:24<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: are you talking about the stupid thumbnails?
20:25<@Rubidium>those where the forum makes 2 MB PNGs from 100 KiB PNGs?
20:25<Eddi|zuHause>no, i disabled images in the forum, including the thumbnails
20:25<Eddi|zuHause>but the real image is 2MB
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20:25<Yexo>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=865412#p865412 that one
20:25<Eddi|zuHause>specifically, i disabled images _because_ of the thumbnails
20:25<Eddi|zuHause>they are horrible
20:26<Eddi|zuHause>they aren't even real thumbnails
20:26<Yexo>thumbnail in that case is 'only' 780kb
20:26<Eddi|zuHause>thumbnails are something like 100x60 pixels
20:26<@Rubidium>hmm... making screenshot to JPG, then seeing you should post PNG and converting it?
20:26<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know what huge thumbs orudge has, though
20:26<Eddi|zuHause>maybe he used the sledge hammer a few too many times :p
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20:34<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19462 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_airport.cpp station_base.h table/airport_defaults.h): -Codechange: use the AS_GENERIC macro also for the dummy airport
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22:52<Nite>Hi
22:53-!-aber [~Adium@gb049.stw.stud.uni-saarland.de] has joined #openttd
22:54<Nite>im just so stunned by the richness of ottd, especially compared to commercial "build up" strategy games, cant think of anything with that much detail or finetunign adaptability
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22:56<Nite>ottd is simply ahead when it comes to strategy games
22:56<Eddi|zuHause>that's because commercial games don't get 10 years of development time
22:57<Nite>well there are game series that get that much development time - but only their graphics developes while gameplay often shrinks.
22:57<Nite>in ottd its all about the gameplay, constantly growing
22:57<Eddi|zuHause>they get one or two years, maybe an addon half a year later, and then they start from scratch with a new game
22:58<Eddi|zuHause>tbh, the graphics don't evolve because we don't have the manpower for that, not because we don't want to
22:59<Nite>i think of c&c series it was great at the beginning but did not evolve
22:59<Nite>last anno title is stunning though
23:00<Jolteon>C&C RA2 = best.
23:01<Nite>throwing out features killed lot of commercial games i think.
23:01<Nite>c&c & ra WaS the best i think its now a not more than a nice gimmick
23:02<Eddi|zuHause>they don't "throw out" features they "not include" features because they couldn't be finished in time
23:02<Eddi|zuHause>just go to the development forum, and you have at least half a dozen large features that are "not included" in openttd
23:02<Nite>many games where what some call streamlined ...
23:03<Nite>i was not talking about ottd - clearly ottd keeps all the good features!
23:04<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think you understand how software development works
23:04<Nite>again i get missunderstood in these forums
23:05<Nite>i was compring ottd to commercial and think that ottd is better.
23:06<Nite>what makes you think i don't understand?
23:06<Eddi|zuHause>you talk about "thrown out" features, where that hardly ever happens
23:07<Nite>it happened in sooo many game series.
23:08<Eddi|zuHause>please, give some examples
23:09<Nite>worst of all are teh 3d shooters i think - simply generic. tooo many to name.
23:09<Nite>with "throw out" i also mean throw out of the plan.
23:10<Eddi|zuHause>that may be true, but this is irrelevant, as you didn't actually give an example of a feature
23:10<Nite>may it be as irrelevant as you like it to be - just wanted to praise ottd a little. ;)
23:12<Eddi|zuHause>ottd does not need praising, we know it is good. what you did was downtalk other games, without giving proper reasons
23:14<Eddi|zuHause>you just said "3d shooters are bad", which, if games were humans, would be borderline racist
23:16<Eddi|zuHause>that may just be influenced by your personal preference. also, 3d shooters may look "generic" because there's generally an overflowed market
23:16<Eddi|zuHause>because the "density" of games is higher, it is natural that the difference in features is lower
23:17<Nite>true its a personal preference - simply have enough from the 3dshooter genere
23:18<Eddi|zuHause>openttd looks so "good", because it is serving a niche market that was overlooked in the last decade
23:19<De_Ghosty>hey look
23:19<De_Ghosty>http://img32.imageshack.us/g/dsc01562y.jpg/
23:19<Nite>true taht it stands on its own ... (almost not mentining the flawed loco)
23:20<Nite>nice figures
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23:21<Nite>ej and get a littel mor positive eddi - enjoy some praise sometimes ...
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23:22<Eddi|zuHause>"not being yelled at is praise enough"
23:23<Nite>so you are clearly involved with the developement of ottd?
23:23<Eddi|zuHause>in angloamerican context, "praise" is just a euphemism for "random noise to ease, when you actually want to say something bad"
23:24<Eddi|zuHause>only marginally
23:24<Eddi|zuHause>i have provided a patch here and there
23:24<Nite>as a pessimist point of view, that might be true ...
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23:25<Nite>ok so i unprise all the patches you have done to show how much i like them ;)
23:26<Eddi|zuHause>and i'm not actually a pessimist... more a pragmatist that tries to reduce things to the relevant bit
23:27<Eddi|zuHause>which is why i get so annoyed quickly at people who use so many words to say few things, or repeat themselves often
23:27<Nite>so it was relevant to clear out your disaffection to praise
23:27<Nite>i geuss
23:28<Eddi|zuHause>"praise" is just one level below "spam"
23:28<Nite>well .. ahem .. you use quit alot words in your reactions
23:28<Eddi|zuHause>in information/noise ratio
23:29<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but each word is carefully crafted to carry a lot of content
23:30<Eddi|zuHause>plus, if i exaggerate that, people tend to not understand me anymore
23:31<Eddi|zuHause>so i have learned to cater to their need of noise
23:32<Nite>and this channel seems to be a good place sometimes to get your dose of beeing misunderstood. ;)
23:33<Pikka>Eddi|zuHause: it's possible that the "noise" contains meaning which you fail to decypher? :)
23:33<Nite>the question of "meaning" is a hard one ...
23:34<Eddi|zuHause>no, the "noise" contains information that is trivial to me and gets filtered out, but other people need that noise to follow the argumentation
23:35<Nite>what you call noise might sometimes be information you simly cant decode and further recieve.
23:35<Eddi|zuHause>my problem is that i always think two steps ahead of everyone else, so if i directly channeled my thoughts into words, everyone misses two steps of the argument
23:36<Nite>you mean you think faster tahn you can talk/type (?)
23:37<Nite>what a genius u are - ups sry a praise that was ...
23:37<Eddi|zuHause>no. well, yes, but that's not what i mean
23:37<Nite>in the end we all mean 42
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---Logclosed Fri Mar 19 00:00:16 2010