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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-03-19

---Logopened Fri Mar 19 00:00:16 2010
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00:30<OTTDNoob>Hey guys I have my printing works making goods but where do I send them for cash? I checked wiki and it said send it to town so I set up some truckstops in a near by town and have goods vehicles taking them there but Im not getting anything
00:32<OTTDNoob>Anyone here?
00:32<OTTDNoob>Help a noob?
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00:35<OTTDNoob>Anyone here?
00:39<OTTDNoob>Someone want to help me quick
00:39<Pikka>OTTDNoob: the station at the town needs to accept goods
00:39<OTTDNoob>they are getting to the station but just sitting there
00:40<Pikka>generally only larger buildings accept goods, you can use the ? button to check what a building accepts
00:40<OTTDNoob>hmm alright...could I have picked a town to small for the goods then?
00:40<De_Ghosty>click on the station
00:40<De_Ghosty>it should say what it accepts
00:40<De_Ghosty>at the bottom of the info
00:41<Pikka>yes, you'll need to find a bigger town, or wait until the town grows before you can deliver goods.
00:41<OTTDNoob>ok...and if it doesnt accept goods can I "refit" it like I can the boats?
00:42<OTTDNoob>Alright thanks
00:42<De_Ghosty>you can
00:42<Pikka>can you refit a town?
00:42<De_Ghosty>sent it to station
00:42<De_Ghosty>i mean depot
00:43<De_Ghosty>if he can refit boat he can refit bus?
00:43<OTTDNoob>I think Pikka got it...the town is to small
00:43<OTTDNoob>Thanks guys Im going back to my new addiciton =P
00:43<Pikka>with the default vehicles only planes and ships can be refitted, afaia...
00:43<Pikka>have fun :)
00:43<De_Ghosty>load a ottdcoop game
00:43<De_Ghosty>and be amazed
00:44<De_Ghosty>and more addicted
00:44<OTTDNoob>what is coop?
00:45<De_Ghosty>it's where alot of us come together and build these gigantic things which would take eons
00:45<De_Ghosty>and you learn alot of good building styles
00:46<Pikka>or about openttd coop building styles, which is not necessarily the same thing ;)
00:46<De_Ghosty>playing 2 game of it is better then playing 100 of normal things
00:47<OTTDNoob>Its multiplayer?
00:47<De_Ghosty>ottd is mutiplayer don't u need the internet button when u start?
00:47<OTTDNoob>My bad i mean is the coop thing a multiplayer thing
00:48<OTTDNoob>Im using the newest version 1.00 or w/e it is and most multiplayer games are using .75 so I havent got on there yet
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00:49<OTTDNoob>Thanks for the help again I'll check out the coop after I play a bit more
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01:11<Nite>any quick way of resetting ottd to default options?
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01:12<FauxFaux>Delete the cfg. ¬_¬
01:14<OTTDNoob>Is it possible to get semi intelligent ai? I've downloaded the online content but they all go bankrupt and ask me to buy them out for $2
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03:18<Terkhen>good morning
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03:55<Pikka>good morning
03:58<Pikka>articulated ships!
03:58<Pikka>articulated aircraft!
03:58<Pikka>articulated town buildings!
03:58<Pikka>articulated new cargos!
03:58<andythenorth>Pikka: you score 1 out of 4
03:58<andythenorth>try again
03:58<Pikka>what's wrong with articulated aircraft?
03:59<Pikka>could make combis :)
03:59<Pikka>or that :)
03:59<andythenorth>revised score: 2 out of 4
04:00<andythenorth>meanwhile....Yexo, would you mind if I posted your industry window patch to the development forum?
04:00<Yexo>andythenorth: go ahead
04:00<Yexo>as long as it's clear that it won't go in trunk in this form
04:01<andythenorth>Yup. It's more for discussion
04:01<andythenorth>"Boom" another power
04:01<andythenorth>station just closed
04:02<andythenorth>Pikka: seen this?
04:03<andythenorth>You'd be looking at the debug output in the industry window
04:03<andythenorth>Handy patch
04:03<Pikka>how rare
04:04*andythenorth time for tea
04:11<andythenorth>Yexo: how much work is involved in adding a new window to the game?
04:12<Yexo>depends on the window
04:12<Yexo>a simple one: not much work
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04:12<andythenorth>It would be a debug / inspect menu, appearance is not the most important factor.
04:13<Yexo>all the work around (making sure it's closed when it needs to be closed, refreshed when it needs to be etc) is more work
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04:15<andythenorth>I am going to do a small design proposal for how 'inspect' could work....
04:15<andythenorth>I think it would be better as a separate window.
04:16<Yexo>I agree it should be a seperate window
04:17<andythenorth>is it a major hassle to have a GUI button that only appears if a certain config option is enabled?
04:17<Yexo>not really
04:18*andythenorth goes draws something
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05:10<andythenorth>see the little 'bug' icon?
05:11<andythenorth>I am thinking something like that brings up a simple menu with minimal styling
05:11<Yexo>why for towns?
05:12<andythenorth>good question
05:12<andythenorth>Think I intended that to be stations.
05:13*andythenorth more sleep would lead to less fail :o
05:15<andythenorth>what is 'variety distribution' in the world gen screen?
05:15<andythenorth>'tis new to me
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05:24*andythenorth wonders if the world gen gui could use a small amount of love...
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05:32<@peter1138>more "realistic"
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05:36<Pikka>interesting coastline effect D:
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05:37<Pikka>but I do like the flat areas and mountains :o
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05:40<andythenorth>several bays closed off by a single land tile
05:40<andythenorth>seems like that should be optimis-able?
05:40<andythenorth>and that one looks just like san francisco :o
05:41<Pikka>I get spiky coastlines on mountainous/low/rough/medium :D
05:42<@peter1138>there are ways to tweak it to produce large water masses
05:42<@peter1138>(source code editing, mind you)
05:44*Pikka toddles off to make dinner
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05:49<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19463 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: add helper function to determine if an airport has at least one hangar
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05:51<@peter1138>moonscape, eh?
05:51<andythenorth>tee hee
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05:57<Yexo>andythenorth: you already got code for that or is it just a mockup?
05:57<andythenorth>way beyond my skills right now
05:58<andythenorth>it should be pinnable. Is pinning a big hassle?
05:58<Yexo>pinning is easy
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06:12<fonsinchen>shouldn't STR_TOOLBAR_RAILTYPE_VELOCITY be near the other toolbar strings in english.txt?
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06:32<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19464 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: move GetHangarTile to Airport
06:44<Pikka>peter1138: indeed :)
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07:18<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19465 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: support for multi-tile hangars
07:20*dih nibbles
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07:53<@peter1138>E: main.c: Failed to create '/tmp/pulse-petern': Permission denied
07:53<@peter1138>E: main.c: Failed to create '/tmp/pulse-petern': Permission denied
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08:17<@peter1138> ... i see
08:20<@Rubidium>yeah, that definitely solved the insecure temporary file creation
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08:22<@peter1138>also why is it even suid root :s
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08:23<blathijs>Pulse isn't suid root for me?
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08:25<@peter1138>is for me, in lenny
08:25<thingwath>wasn't it because it wants higher priority?
08:25<@peter1138>no, that priority can be gained without root privileges
08:26<thingwath>file capabilities? that's quite new feature, might not be available everywhere
08:29<thingwath>how else can you get < 0 priority?
08:29<@peter1138>nice is irrelevant
08:29<@peter1138>rtprio is what is required
08:29<@peter1138>either way, both can be granted via securtiy/limits.conf
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08:32<thingwath>that's granted per user
08:32<Noldo>then pulse can be run as pulseuser
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08:37<thingwath>that'd be solution, of course, I don't know why many distributions rather run it as the current logged in user
08:37<blathijs>thingwath: Because that's how pulseaudio is designed
08:37<blathijs>Each user has his own pulse daemon
08:39<thingwath>of course :) but why?
08:39<@peter1138>thingwath, or per group
08:40<@Rubidium>thingwath: why does sdl + pulseaudio prefer the sdl alsa backend + virtual alsa device?
08:40<blathijs>thingwath: Because that allows complete separation of users' audio, for privacy reasons
08:41<blathijs>thingwath: And because that allows things like shared memory to pass audio around, passing audio data across user boundaries is either slow, or insecure I think
08:41<@Rubidium>if you want to know, ask the developers. Don't ask the users
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08:41<blathijs>thingwath: There's a decent page about why "System mode" isn't recommended on the pulseaudio wiki, you should readi t
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08:46<thingwath>ok :) I have pulseaudio suid too, but I don't know why, because there is this "rtkit" thing...
08:47<thingwath>and file capabilities aren't even used, that's sad
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08:51<blathijs>thingwath: Might be that the lenny version hadn't implemented that yet
08:51<blathijs>upstream is at 0.9.21 already by now
08:51<thingwath>no, this is fedora (and it has 0.9.21)
08:52<@peter1138>rtkit got flamed massively on LAD
08:53<thingwath>it seems pretty ugly
08:53<@peter1138>yet another *kit to do something that's already possible
08:54<thingwath>that group approach allows any member of the group to run anything in rt prio, that's not very nice...
08:54<@peter1138>don't add users you don't trust...
08:57<thingwath>I can trust users, but not every bit of code that they might run :)
08:59<Ammler> <-- when do you get this color news?
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09:37<dih>YAY - php and apache segfaults on our test and qa servers :-)
09:40<SpComb^>rewrite in Python
09:40<dih>yeah - er - no
09:41<dih>i mean - i'd love to, but i guess my collegues would not be to happy
09:41<@Rubidium>ieuw... python
09:43<andythenorth>Terkhen: those industry closing logs are really useful
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09:44<dih>(nearly) anything > php
09:45<dih>and i think python would fit the definition of (nearly) anything
09:45<andythenorth>anyone here like stats maths?
09:45<andythenorth>Terkhen has given me logs of industry closure
09:46<andythenorth>I need to know if statistically my nfo code produces different results to game's closure code, or if they are statistically the same
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09:52<Eddi|zuHause>statistics are evil
09:53<Noldo>andythenorth: sounds quite basic
09:54<andythenorth>Noldo: it's just some kind of frequency plot or something. I'm not sure exactly.
09:54<andythenorth>It's probably chi squared or mu or some statistical thing. I always preferred trig to stats tbh
09:56<@Belugas>hello all
09:57<dih>hey ho Belugas
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09:57<dih>and you?
09:57<Noldo>andythenorth: do you have any idea what kind of distribution the closure times follow?
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09:58<andythenorth>Noldo: unfortunately no
09:59<andythenorth>Although I would expect that for five years they are very flat, then there is a large spike
09:59<andythenorth>hmmm....maybe a chart of closures per month by industry type would be enough
09:59<andythenorth>then we can just look at the shape of it
10:00<Pikka>where was that sound effect list again? :P
10:01*Belugas is fine, and as usually, very busy. Thanks dih
10:01<Noldo>I haven't studied anything that doesn't asume normal distribution :)
10:01<TrueBrain>Belugas: stop being busy
10:01<TrueBrain>we need you
10:01<Terkhen>andythenorth: you are welcome :)
10:01<Noldo>Belugas o/
10:01<@Belugas>as do my boss and as do my wife, TrueBrain
10:01<TrueBrain>fair point
10:01<Noldo>what about the kids?
10:01<andythenorth>there are more wives! There is only one game
10:02<@Belugas>just one kid, enough to grab the last remaining free time ;)
10:02<andythenorth>ah. I now know about those small people
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10:04<andythenorth>closure protection for secondary industries (currently five years). 10 sound better, or 15? 25 is as high as I am prepared to go.
10:04<Pikka>10 sounds good
10:05<andythenorth>hmmm....does nfo get to know the map size?
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10:07<Pikka>good question, and good answer!
10:08<Pikka> variable 13 :)
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10:13<andythenorth>how useful
10:14<andythenorth>grf authors could do some naughty things with that list
10:14<andythenorth>plane speed factor = 0.25? Multiply all plane speeds by 4!
10:14<andythenorth>mwah hahah etc
10:15<andythenorth>of course, only badly behaved grf authors would think of doing that
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10:41<Pikka|afk>andy: I use it to change running costs, but not speeds. :)
10:41-!-Pikka|afk is now known as Pikka
10:45<andythenorth>slowing industry closure rates on a huge map might be worthwhile
10:45<andythenorth>but I don't fancy tackling that maths today :)
10:45<andythenorth>or this month even
10:46<andythenorth>so 10 years closure protection, then, if my code's working correctly, industries start going "BOOM"
10:46<andythenorth>and depending on the randomisation, an industry might take up to about 25 years to go "BOOM"
10:47*andythenorth serving suggestion only. contents may vary from the illustration on the packet
10:49<Jolteon>I hope the 'boom' isn't literal.
10:49<Jolteon>Although, it may be fun to watch an Industry get deconstructed when it dies.
10:49<Jolteon>as some eye candy.
10:49<Jolteon>(Basically the reverse of it being built)
10:49<Jolteon>If one can play that animation backwards?
10:50<Jolteon>Sequence, not animation.
10:50<andythenorth>Jolteon: think that was discussed some where
10:50<Jolteon>Oh :o
10:50<andythenorth>possibly as a reason why we can't have animated tiles around industries (other than fields) meh
10:50*andythenorth grumps
10:51<Jolteon>I'd never heard about the no anim tiles around them :o
10:52*andythenorth considers showing players 'high' or 'low' chance of closuer
10:52<andythenorth>closure /s
10:53<andythenorth>nah screw it. let them live in fear :P
10:53<Jolteon>Add it as a toggleable thing?
10:54<Jolteon>So people can chose to live in fear, or knowledge?
10:54*andythenorth *hates* too many options
10:54<andythenorth>however there *will* be a 'never close' option
10:54<andythenorth>that will be bundled with some other options under 'easy' or 'sandbox' FIRS
10:54<dih>TrueBrain: the api available behind the translator.... was there an api for bananas too?
10:55<Jolteon>Only thing that currently annoys me is building a nice network
10:55<Jolteon>then at the end of it all
10:55<dih>on second thought, forget it
10:55<Jolteon>the freaking industry closes.
10:55<Jolteon>It'd be nice if it was possible for an industry to detect activity near it, so if it looks like it will be connected in the near future, it stays open an extra month or tow.
10:57<TrueBrain>dih: nope
10:57<TrueBrain>well, the protocols OpenTTD uses :p
10:57<dih>i was thinking along the line of querying bananas for new grf names ^^
10:57<dih>but then not every new grf is on bananas
10:58<dih>thus i might just store results in a memcache server ^^
10:58<andythenorth>Jolteon: that annoys everyone it seems. I can't fix it the way you describe though. Not easily anyway. And if I started detecting stations or whatever....hmmm it's just a headache.
10:58<Jolteon>Is there actually any way for an industry to even detect a station being built near it? (or just detect a newly built piece of track near it)
10:58<andythenorth>query nearby tiles often.
10:58<@Rubidium>dih: the 'updater' knows way more NewGRFs
10:59<Jolteon>andythenorth: Wouldn't that be CPU intensive if all the industries had to do that?
10:59<andythenorth>Jolteon: do it once a month, should be ok
10:59<Jolteon>ah, okay.
10:59<andythenorth>but it's baroque.
10:59<dih>Rubidium: do tell me about the 'updater' :-)
10:59<dih>can i query it?
11:00<@Rubidium>it's the part of the masterserver that queries game servers for their data/whether they are still online
11:00<Jolteon>Also about the switch that disables tree growth
11:00<dih>would you allow me to query it if i turned OpenTTDLib into a webservice?
11:00<Jolteon>Does that also disable trees growing around the sawmill in tropical?
11:00<andythenorth>do trees grow around the sawmill?
11:00<@Rubidium>Jolteon: depending on the actual setting of that switch: yes
11:00<andythenorth>I thought players had to plant the damn things
11:00<@Rubidium>andythenorth: s/sawmill/lumber mill/
11:00<@peter1138>depends where the lumber mill is placed
11:00<Jolteon>Is there any way to add an exception to it, so it is safe to play tropical with it off, but not affect industry?
11:01<andythenorth>I hate the fricking sawmill
11:01<andythenorth>lumber mill
11:01<@Rubidium>peter1138: yeah, that too
11:01<Jolteon>I can't stand tree growth, but i'd forget to manually place trees around the lumber yard.
11:01<Jolteon>I don't spose that'd ever be 'fixed' as such?
11:01<Jolteon>As technically, it is doing exactly what the setting is meant to
11:01<@Rubidium>Jolteon: yes, but adding that exception makes the tile loop computational much more complex
11:01<dih>Rubidium: or would you prefer me keeping track myself?
11:01<Jolteon>Rubidium: oh.
11:02<Jolteon>I guess that'd be bad for overall efficiency
11:02<Jolteon>thus, not really plausible to put in.
11:02<@Rubidium>yes, but as I said: you can enable tree growth only in rainforest areas
11:02<Jolteon>really? :Lo
11:02<@Rubidium>i.e. the whole map except rainforest has no trees
11:02*Jolteon launches openttd and carefully looks through the settings.
11:04<Jolteon>If when creating the map, the tree algorithm is Non, would trees naturally spawn as the game progresses? (Presuming rainforest only was on)
11:04<@Rubidium>quite quickly actually
11:05<Jolteon>ah, thats okay.
11:06<andythenorth>Jolteon: would something like this help you make decisions about network building?
11:06<andythenorth>it's intended to help, but not supposed to give 100% of the answer.
11:07<Jolteon>It'd be better if it was less vague, and more helpful.
11:08<andythenorth>Jolteon: the future is uncertain grasshopper
11:08<andythenorth>How I can be certain what the random bits are going to be?
11:08<Jolteon>make the random less random? :p
11:09<andythenorth>Jolteon: yes, well I could
11:09<Hirundo> <- like this, I presume
11:09<@Rubidium>andythenorth: 'and' it with 0 or 'or' it with -1
11:09<andythenorth>so then all unserviced power stations would close five years after game start
11:09<Jolteon>That reminds me, Hirundo.
11:09<andythenorth>fun isn't it :|
11:09<Jolteon>Theres no such thing as a 'fair' random in coding, is there?
11:09<Jolteon>Apparantly it's always slightly biased, or something.
11:10*Jolteon read that somewhere, forgot where though.
11:10<andythenorth>it's ok, the human sense of random is utterly biased anyway
11:10<Jolteon>I always go "hmm.. let me think"
11:10<andythenorth>and to complicate matters, math random expects some kind of even distribution....but...
11:10<Jolteon>and I nearly always say 3 and 7.
11:10<andythenorth>lots of complex systems aren't even, they seem to fit better to power laws
11:11<andythenorth>jolten: do some maths
11:11<andythenorth>any maths
11:11<andythenorth>Jolteon: 3+11?
11:12<@Rubidium>andythenorth: 20
11:12<andythenorth>20 - 2?
11:12<andythenorth>name a vegetable...
11:12<@Rubidium>andythenorth: 10
11:12<andythenorth>most english speaking people do the same thing
11:12<Jolteon>I was going to say a tomato
11:12<Jolteon>but no one is quite sure what they are.
11:12<andythenorth>it's a true urban myth
11:12*andythenorth back to the nfo
11:12<@Rubidium>oh, egg plant! :)
11:14<andythenorth>hmm. the maths->carrot thing might be bollocks
11:15<Jolteon>I was /meant/ to say carrot?
11:15<andythenorth>most people do
11:15<@Rubidium>andythenorth: where's the proof for that?
11:15<andythenorth>urban myth
11:16<Jolteon>andythenorth: Surely people say what they are exposed to the most.
11:16<Jolteon>In my case it's (unfortunatly) carrots.
11:16<andythenorth>Jolteon: that appears to be what cognitive science thinks too
11:16<Jolteon>I mean, I wouldn't say what a Nigerian woman would sauy.
11:16<Jolteon>She'd probably just reply with "..a what"
11:16<andythenorth>Would we like to see construction date in the industry window?
11:17<@Rubidium>andythenorth: but if it's urban myth, someone must have written about it
11:17-!-Pikka [] has quit []
11:17<andythenorth>oh balls
11:18<andythenorth>I was writing him a question
11:18<dih>src/smallmap_gui.cpp: In member function ‘void SmallMapWindow::SetZoomLevel(SmallMapWindow::ZoomLevelChange, const Point*)’:
11:18<dih>src/smallmap_gui.cpp:641: warning: ‘tile$y’ may be used uninitialized in this function
11:18<dih>src/smallmap_gui.cpp:641: warning: ‘tile$x’ may be used uninitialized in this function
11:18<@Rubidium>dih: don't use Apple's compiler... it gives false warnings!
11:18<dih>i am not
11:19<dih>Target: i486-linux-gnu
11:19<dih>Configured with: ../src/configure -v --enable-languages=c,c++,fortran,objc,obj-c++,treelang --prefix=/usr --enable-shared --with-system-zlib --libexecdir=/usr/lib --without-included-gettext --enable-threads=posix --enable-nls --program-suffix=-4.1 --enable-__cxa_atexit --enable-clocale=gnu --enable-libstdcxx-debug --enable-mpfr --with-tune=i686 --enable-checking=release i486-linux-gnu
11:19<dih>Thread model: posix
11:19<dih>gcc version 4.1.2 20061115 (prerelease) (Debian 4.1.1-21)
11:19<TrueBrain>a i486 compiler, tuned for i686
11:19<andythenorth>@seen FooBar
11:19<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: I have not seen FooBar.
11:19<TrueBrain>sensible ...
11:20<@Rubidium>dih: read the readme; it says 4.1 gives bogus compiler warnings! :)
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12:07<andythenorth>oh fuckadoodle, excuse my swearing
12:08<davis>you are excused
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12:09*andythenorth reverts to stop the game blowing up really unhelpfully
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12:20<Wizzleby>does OpenMSX have an earliest version of openttd supported?
12:22<blathijs>Wizzleby: I think it needs 1.0
12:23<Wizzleby>blathijs: ok, thanks
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12:23<blathijs>Wizzleby: But you can probably get away with earlier versions if you rename the midi files like the original ones
12:24*Wizzleby nods, "Mostly I'm just interested in making sure that when I've packaged it, it has sane dependencies listed"
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12:25*andythenorth ponders
12:26<andythenorth>consistency versus variety: which do we prefer?
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12:30<andythenorth>Oblique Strategies: "A line has two sides"
12:35<blathijs>Wizzleby: Packaged for what?
12:35<@Rubidium>blathijs: gentoo?
12:36<Wizzleby>Aye, gentoo
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13:20<TT1a1a1>guys, ive got a tiny bus station in the middle of a city that i really want to extend by the local authority are refusing to let me remove part of the road
13:20<TT1a1a1>is there a workaround?
13:21<TT1a1a1>rating is outstanding
13:23<@Rubidium>1) build a drive through bus stop?
13:23<@Rubidium>2) open the cheat window and enable the magic bulldozer (but remember to disable it again because if enabled everything gets the magic bulldozer, i.e. towns removing industries and such)
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13:43<@Belugas>3) plant an awfull lot of tres in the city
13:44<Alberth>and around it :)
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13:46<andythenorth>hi hi industry fans
13:46<@Rubidium>Belugas: if your rating is outstanding planting trees doesn't help
13:47<@Belugas>ho... shoo... right...
13:47<@Belugas>TrueBrain, yuo were soooooo right..... look at me now....
13:47<andythenorth>Brewery: 1 grain = 1 output; 1 fruit = 1 output; 1 grain & 1 fruit = 2 output?
13:48<andythenorth>alternatively 1 grain & 1 fruit = 3 output or 4 output
13:48<andythenorth>the maths is a bit off - my point is, these cargos shouldn't combine in any way to make 'more'?
13:49<TrueBrain>Belugas: and this is only the start ;)
13:49<TrueBrain>it will get worse :)
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14:22<Wolf01>hello :D
14:23-!-TT1a1a1 [] has quit [Quit: He who asks a question may be a fool for five minutes, but he who never asks a question remains a fool forever]
14:25<blathijs>And he who asks a question and then quits from IRC within five minutes is just an idiot
14:27<Terkhen>until the next question :)
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14:27<@Rubidium>s/within five minutes/before someone typed the answer/
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14:33*andythenorth five is the answer
14:33<andythenorth>but to an entirely different question
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14:38<dih>sweet :-)
14:38<dih>thank you :-)
14:40<dih>that is awesome :-)
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14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19466 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files): (log message trimmed)
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: czech - 1 changes by TheLamer
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: greek - 4 changes by
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: lithuanian - 3 changes by kiphemyst
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 3 changes by mantaray
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 3 changes by mantaray
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14:51<OwenS>Rubidium: Everything gets magic bulldozer? Wow, that explains a lot
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14:55<OwenS>This will explain why I've had a city tear down a neighbour's skyscrapers to build small houses...
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15:01<OwenS>Why does clearing some train track make money, but clearing some road cost money?
15:03<@Rubidium>cause steel has resell value?
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15:07<OwenS>Rubidium: That's greater than the cost of restoring the land?
15:07<FauxFaux>You don't replace the land, it's left blank and returns to grass naturally.
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15:08<OwenS>FauxFaux: I'd say digging out Monorail supports is quite expensive ;-)
15:09<OwenS> /Maglev/Transrapid
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15:15<OwenS>andythenorth: Traditional rails are just steel beams on a wooden mat, with a chipping base. Maglev supports are sunk quite deep into the ground, and are quite comple
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15:17<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> closure protection for secondary industries (currently five years). 10 sound better, or 15? 25 is as high as I am prepared to go. <-- what about depending on map size? linear: 1 year * (map_x+map_y-11)? so 1 on 64x64, 3 on 128x128, 5 on 256x256, 11 on 2048x2048? or quadratic: 1 year * (map_x-5)*(map_y-5), makes 1 on 64x64, 4 on 128x128, 8 on 256x256, 36 on 2048x2048?
15:17<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I think the map size would be a good refinement.
15:17<andythenorth>I don't want to code it for FIRS 0.1 (plenty of other stuff to do)
15:18<andythenorth>It's prop 13 here:
15:18<andythenorth>Looks complicated for my brain to understand :P
15:18<andythenorth>but I've added it to a ticket on the FIRS tracker
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>well, for the linear version you want the SS part, for the quadratic version the XY part of the variable
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>then do a little bit magic on them
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>they have a builtin offset, that results in the formulas: SS+1 for linear, and (X+1)*(Y+1) for quadratic
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>or X*Y+SS+1
15:23<andythenorth>ok so now I have charts from Roujin
15:23<andythenorth>we are looking at the Power Station
15:24<andythenorth> what is the chart telling me?
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>"Request timed out"?
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>i don't get anything...
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15:28<Eddi|zuHause>you can modify the quadratic variant to X*Y+1, results in: 1 on 64x64, 2 on 128x128, 5 on 256x256, 26 on 2048x2048
15:29<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I've stuck that on the FIRS tracker as well
15:29<andythenorth>I'm not going to start on it at the moment :)
15:30<Noldo>:/ the spreadsheet is timeouting
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>if you give me the code segment that calculates the protection period, i could try to write something up
15:31<andythenorth>It would be a single varaction 2 that writes to a register
15:31<andythenorth>nicely self contained :)
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, but it's easier for me if i already have the writing to register part :)
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15:31<Noldo>only the graphs are
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15:36<andythenorth>1in 4?
15:36<andythenorth> 81 18 00 03 //randomise
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15:57<andythenorth>do we like 'conflicting industry types'?
15:57<andythenorth>i.e. can't build some industry types near certain other industry types?
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15:58<Eddi|zuHause>maybe, but how useful is that?
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>i mean there's no reason why a steel mill can't be next to an oil refinery
16:00<Terkhen>andythenorth: I don't mind running further tests, 20 years is fine?
16:00<andythenorth>Terkhen: might as well :)
16:01<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: coal mine next to steel mill? (I am playing devil's advocate, I don't personally like 'conflicting types')
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: honestly, i can't see a reason for that either
16:03<andythenorth>so I have one vote against 'conflicting types'. Anyone else got an opinion? :)
16:03<Terkhen>I don't like conflicting types either, I can't think of a case in FIRS where it would be useful
16:03<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19467 /trunk/src/misc/ (blob.hpp str.hpp):
16:03<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Codechange: Use uint and byte direct instead of declaring internal types (skidd13)
16:03<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Codechange: remove now unneeded asserts
16:03<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Codechange: Set CBlobBaseSimple as absolute base class of CBlobT
16:04<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19468 /trunk/src/misc/blob.hpp: -Codechange: make ptr_u union in Blob anonymous (skidd13)
16:06<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19469 /trunk/src/misc/ (blob.hpp str.hpp): -Codechange: remove unused functions from Blob (skidd13)
16:06<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19470 /trunk/src/misc/ (blob.hpp dbg_helpers.cpp): -Codechange: rename blob internals (skidd13)
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16:08<PeterT>where is this skidd13?
16:08<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19471 /trunk/src/misc/ (blob.hpp str.hpp): -Codechange: rename ByteBlob methods to fit common style (skidd13)
16:10<Yexo>FS#3461 / irc
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>afair he was a developer a while ago
16:13<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19472 /trunk/src/misc/blob.hpp: -Codechange: reorder the static members of ByteBlob and add Zero() (skidd13)
16:14<dih>did he not once have commit rights?
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16:15<PeterT>Yexo: does he have a different alias on IRC_
16:15<@Rubidium>although that answer depends on how the question is interpreted
16:15<Yexo>PeterT: no
16:15<dih>he used to be on irc
16:15<PeterT>just FS, then
16:15<dih>Rubidium, i thought i (some time back) so commits by him
16:15<Yexo>PeterT: no
16:16<PeterT>am I missing something?
16:16<Yexo>yes, #openttd is not the only irc channel, being on irc does not mean being in #openttd
16:16<dih>PeterT, always
16:17<dih>and dont try to enter the "lions den" ^^
16:18<Yexo>@commit 14557
16:18<@DorpsGek>Yexo: Commit by skidd13 :: r14557 trunk/src/string.cpp (2008-11-02 11:41:13 UTC)
16:18<@DorpsGek>Yexo: -Codechange: Remove a redundant line of code
16:18<Yexo>dih: ^^
16:18<dih>yes - that
16:18<dih>i knew it existed
16:18<Yexo>hg log -u skidd13 to get a full list
16:18<@Rubidium>dih: ¬E(skidd13 did commit) = false
16:19<dih>ok, but he had a user, someone revised his stuff and commited for him?
16:19<Yexo>dih: notice the "¬"
16:20<Yexo>double negations ftw :)
16:20<@Rubidium>dih definitely isn't of Vulcan descent
16:22<dih>vulkanette vulgaris :-D
16:24<@Rubidium>but temporal logic is fun... especially when it sees common linguistic constructs in the exact opposite
16:27*andythenorth goes on a mission to eliminate conflicting types. This will be....ummm....we'll se
16:28<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19473 /trunk/src/misc/blob.hpp: -Codechange: remove unused variables in the Blob::SmartAlloc code (skidd13)
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16:38<Eddi|zuHause>dih: partly galapagos turtle? :)
16:39<dih>an can reach 400 years of age :-P
16:44<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19474 /trunk/src/misc/blob.hpp: -Cleanup: remove ByteBlob::Append(T*, num_items)
16:44<andythenorth>ho hum
16:45<andythenorth>I'm getting the '...too close to another industry' message when trying to construct industries
16:45<andythenorth>*every* FIRS industry has action 0 prop 16 set as follows
16:45<andythenorth> 16 FF FF FF //conflicting industry types (3*byte; ID+80h; FF to disable)
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16:57<andythenorth>"Industries of the same type can be built close to each other" appears to be broken for secondary industry.
16:57<andythenorth>or I've misunderstood it
16:58<@Rubidium>close to eachother as in "in the same town"
16:58<andythenorth>Wouldn't that be "Allow multiple similar industries per town"
16:59<@Rubidium>hmm, there are two settings?
17:00<@Rubidium>then I don't know without looking at the source
17:00<@Rubidium>and can't be bothered to do that right now
17:00<@Rubidium>dinner time (little late though)
17:00<CIA-6>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19475 /trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp: -Cleanup: Remove an unneeded for when drawing detail panels.
17:04<andythenorth>I haven't read the source, but I think the game prevents secondary industries being built within about 20 tiles of each other *if* they have at least one accepted cargo the same
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17:18<Nite_Owl>Hello all
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17:18<Yexo>andythenorth: a secondary industry cannot be build close (< 14 tiles) to another industry if both industries if the first cargotype both industry accept is the same and one of "same industry close to eachother" and "multiple industries per town" is off
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>what constitutes a "secondary" industry in this case?
17:24<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19476 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: simplify the 'is conflicting industry nearby' check a bit
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17:25<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: any industry that has the INDUSTRYLIFE_EXTRACTIVE or INDUSTRYLIFE_ORGANIC bits set but not the INDUSTRYBEH_CUT_TREES bit
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>that doesn't seem to make a lot of sense...
17:26<Yexo>Lumber mills are extractive/organic, but can always be built like a non-raw industry <- there is that comment in the openttd code
17:28<andythenorth>oh poop
17:28<andythenorth>That explains my problem then
17:28<andythenorth>I have quite a lot of secondary industries with overlapping cargo acceptance
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: is the check you said there inverse? because in my world, "extractive" and "organic" industries are primary...
17:30-!-JVassie [] has joined #openttd
17:30<andythenorth>I suppose all FIRS industries could be primary
17:31<andythenorth>seems a bit weird
17:31<andythenorth>but might work
17:31<andythenorth>what might go wrong?
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: AIs misinterpreting stuff?
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but why bother, if simply disabling the settings helps?
17:32<andythenorth>it doesn't
17:33<Yexo><Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: is the check you said there inverse? because in my world, "extractive" and "organic" industries are primary... <- sorry, yes
17:33<Yexo>what I said was a descriptino of primary industries
17:34<Yexo>andythenorth: the settin gto build secondary industries but only fund primary industries would fail
17:34<andythenorth>everything would be prospecting
17:34<Yexo>and I'd expect every primary industry to produce cargo even if it doesn't get any incoming cargo
17:35<Yexo>that's more important for AIs then for humans though
17:35*andythenorth is a teensy bit depressed by how complicated it all is :P
17:36-!-JVassie_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:36<andythenorth>is it something we could change?
17:39-!-Grelouk [] has quit [Quit: Quitte]
17:45<andythenorth>so....the problem is that (a) it's irritating to prevent secondary industries building near each other and (b) the message is unhelpful and will produce a lot of bogus bug reports
17:46<andythenorth>I suppose I could us cb28 for every secondary industry and return a more helpful error text.
17:46<andythenorth>I don't know if cb28 will be over-ridden by the game's built-in check though
17:47<andythenorth>I could delete the secondary industries with same input cargos
17:48-!-Brianett1 [] has joined #openttd
17:49<andythenorth>I wonder what the game's distance check will do if I use cb 14B to set cargos?
17:49<@Belugas>pffff....enough for the week...
17:49<@Belugas>time to say ....
17:49<PeterT>bye Belugas!
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17:51<frosch123>14b is only called on construction, for unconstructed industries (including ais querying industrytype information) there are only the properties
17:52<andythenorth>frosch123: so would 14B run before or after CheckIfFarEnoughFromIndustry
17:52<frosch123>14b is run when the industry is already half placed
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17:53<andythenorth>CheckIfFarEnoughFromIndustry looks broken to me
17:53<andythenorth>or at least, massively confusing to players
17:54<frosch123>you need to use cb 28 yourself to simulate cb 14b. if you also need the random bits for it, you have to wait for :p
17:55<andythenorth>frosch123: is it clear what I'm trying to do?
17:55<andythenorth>as that answer confused me :)
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17:56<frosch123>i thought you want to prevent industries accepting/producing similiar cargo to appear next to each other
17:56<andythenorth>no, the inverse :)
17:56<andythenorth>the game already prevents that
17:56<andythenorth>incidentally something smells wrong about CheckIfFarEnoughFromIndustry to
17:57-!-TrueBrain [~patric@] has quit [Quit: bbl]
17:57<andythenorth>what cause _game_mode != GM_EDITOR to be true?
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17:58<Eddi|zuHause>normal game, not scenario editor
17:58<@Rubidium>not being in the (scenario) editor?
17:59<andythenorth>so there is no point in checking the other two advanced options in CheckIfFarEnoughFromIndustry
17:59<andythenorth>so in game, this will always be true?
17:59<andythenorth> _game_mode != GM_EDITOR || !_settings_game.economy.same_industry_close || !_settings_game.economy.multiple_industry_per_town
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>in the scenario editor, these settings are ignored
18:01<andythenorth>nope, in the scenario editor, these settings are not ignored
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the line you just pasted says: "in scenario editor, treat these settings as always on"
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18:03<frosch123>yeah, that check looks totally broken :p
18:03<andythenorth>scenario editor is the only place those settings work correctly for secondary industry
18:04<andythenorth>even I can read that code and see the flaw :P
18:04<andythenorth>and I'm a dumbass
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: apply deMorgan's rule on the line, and it says ¬(in scenario editor && allow industries close && allow industries in town)
18:05<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: and the "¬" is the bug :)
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i can't judge that, depends on the following blocks...
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. adding ¬ is equivalent to switching then/else blocks
18:07<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: umm....just read the real code :|
18:08<andythenorth>for your convenience :)
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18:11<frosch123> <- first guess, but i do not really know what those settings are supposed to do
18:11-!-bryjen [~bryjen@] has quit [Quit: Quit]
18:13<andythenorth>frosch123: I just inverted this _game_mode != GM_EDITOR
18:13<andythenorth>to _game_mode == GM_EDITOR
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>you sure that is correct?
18:14<andythenorth>seems to work for me
18:15<andythenorth>no my version is dumb
18:15<andythenorth>breaks the scenario editor :(
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, shouldn't the game mode be the first thing to check?
18:17<andythenorth>The basis of the whole check seems stupid
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18:17<andythenorth>It may have made sense once to check accepted cargo
18:17<andythenorth>But same accepted cargo != same industry type now we have newgrf industry
18:18<andythenorth>The description of the advanced option for the player is at odds with what the code is trying to do
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>it would be right if it said "similar" industries
18:19<andythenorth>Are coal mine and power station similar?
18:19*andythenorth wonders why he never noticed this problem with PBI
18:20<andythenorth>PBI doesn't have this problem
18:20*andythenorth wtfs briefly
18:20<andythenorth>where does cb 28 get called?
18:24<andythenorth>the game check also only looks at first cargo?!
18:24<andythenorth>indspec->accepts_cargo[0] == i->accepts_cargo[0]
18:24<Yexo>yes :)
18:24-!-[com]buster [] has joined #openttd
18:24<andythenorth>well, dumber has turned up to see his friend dumb in that bit of code then :D
18:24<frosch123>@commit 1443
18:24<@DorpsGek>frosch123: Commit by miham :: r1443 trunk/industry_cmd.c (2005-01-09 14:07:59 UTC)
18:24<@DorpsGek>frosch123: Added feature that users are able to place multiple accepting industies nearby in the editor mode if the appropriate patches are set
18:25<frosch123>i don't understand those settings :)
18:25<@Rubidium>hmm, Miham wrote patches?
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>that was long before my time...
18:25<andythenorth>looks generally like a turkey to me
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>i joined here around r3300 or r3900 i think
18:26<andythenorth>I thought I knew what those settings did, but turns out I've been wrong for 4 years :)
18:26<frosch123>well, that revision does not add those settings in the first place though
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>it adds the GM_EDITOR check i presume
18:27<andythenorth>cb28 seems a little cut off at the kneww
18:27<andythenorth>knee /s :)
18:28<andythenorth>'grf authors can fully control placement' - except in multiple strange cases where they can't :)
18:30<andythenorth>could CreateNewIndustryHelper be changed so that CheckIfFarEnoughFromIndustry is not used if cb 28 is enabled?
18:30<frosch123>so, those lines were supposed to do something completely different than the comments say (which were added later), and we guessed :p
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18:32<@Rubidium>the question here is how much of the industry checking is left to the callback in TTDP
18:34<frosch123> <- right?
18:35<Yexo>frosch123: that is in line with the original commit, but it still feels wrong
18:35<Yexo>shouldn't those settings also work in-game?
18:36<frosch123>they do, but they do something different
18:37<andythenorth>frosch123: what are those settings supposed to do in game?
18:37<frosch123>hmm, but yes. actually multiple_industry_per_town is not needed there
18:37<frosch123>multiple_industry_per_town checks there is only one industry of a type per town. in both editor and in gmae
18:38<frosch123>same_industry_close applies to only raw industries
18:38<frosch123>except with this weird exception that it also applies to secondary industries in editor
18:39<frosch123>but in that case also only for the "accept same cargo"-check, and not for the "conflicting industry types"-check
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18:39<frosch123>and the "accept same cargo"-check only checks the first cargo anyway
18:39*andythenorth wonders what happens if I set first cargo to FF for two industry types
18:39<frosch123>err, maybe we should just trash that check?
18:39<andythenorth>it makes me sad
18:40<andythenorth>why allow primary industries near each other, but not secondary?
18:40<andythenorth>all seems very weird to me
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18:41<frosch123>primary industries near each other provide lots of cargo. secondary industries near each other generate bug reports about only one industry getting the cargo
18:43<andythenorth>but they are only 14 tiles apart?
18:43<frosch123>same_industry_close also disables checking for conflicting industries, like putting a coalmine next to a coalplant which spoils transporting
18:43<andythenorth>not with bulldozers :)
18:45<frosch123>i remember someone posting a screenshot with a station next to directly neighboured industries, with a train that just loads, moves into the depot and returns the same station for unloading :p
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>is that possible at all?
18:45<frosch123>though iirc that is forbidden elsewhere
18:45<andythenorth>how is pikka getting around this problem
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>cargo is not unloaded at the station that it originates from
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>i have seen several people complain that their cargo is not accepted at their oil refinery after a while, and they overlooked an oil well near the unloading station
18:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19477 /trunk/src/misc/ (blob.hpp str.hpp): -Fix (r1946x): removed a few too functions including the copy constructor
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>that sentence does not parse...
18:48<Yexo>*too many
18:49<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: still more useful than virtualbox's messages
18:49<@Rubidium>"FE/Qt4: correction" <- kinda typical virtualbox commit message
18:50<@Rubidium>"FE/Qt4: fix OSE"
18:50<@Rubidium>i.e. it's totally useless to find something particular
18:51<@Rubidium>so... lets hope the compile farm runs tomorrow
18:52<@Rubidium>r22084 | vboxsync | 2009-08-07 21:30:38 +0200 (Fri, 07 Aug 2009) | 1 line
18:52<@Rubidium>Additions/x11/vboxvideo_13: Backported r31434 from vboxvideo_15: Additions/x11 and linux: make the Additions work with Fedora 9/ server 1.5
18:52<@Rubidium>that's nice too... backporting a future revision
18:53<Fast2>Good evening.
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18:53<andythenorth>pbi steel mills can be built adjacent to each other
18:54<andythenorth>scrub that
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18:54<Fast2>I have a problem with Version r18053 with CargoDist: TrainA should transport wheat and cattle from the farm to the factory. In exchange, it should take away the goods and deliver them to the farm, so TrainB can bring them to the city.
18:56<@Rubidium>have you enabled cargodist for those kinds of cargoes? (is that actually a setting?)
18:56<@Rubidium>too bad the cargodist specialist isn't here
18:56*andythenorth ponders
18:56<Fast2>The problem: TrainA takes away the goods he just unloaded because the destination for the goods is not set to the city's station but to "any" station.
18:57<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: the setting is called "demand function"
18:57<@Rubidium>Fast2: maybe setting "no loading" in the "loading" dropdown does the trick
18:57<Eddi|zuHause>Fast2: it sometimes takes time until the algorithm finds targets for a cargo
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18:58<andythenorth>frosch123 so bug reports about adjacent industries not getting cargo are ok, as long as the industries are placed in the scenario editor? smell funny to you?
18:58<Yexo>Fast2: maybe it owrks after you force unload one time
18:58<Eddi|zuHause>just dump the "any station" cargo somewhere
18:58<Fast2>Ah, I see.
18:59<Fast2>I'll try it.
18:59<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth/frosch123: in the long run, it would be better if cargo was distributed over all nearby industries...
19:00<Eddi|zuHause>especially when industries can only process limited amount of cargo without setting a stockpile limit, this behaviour really hurt
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19:03<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: 'limited' is still quite a lot in reality
19:04<andythenorth>up to 65k per production tick
19:04<@Rubidium>especially? All industries are limited
19:05<andythenorth>or do you mean PBI style?
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i mean if the industry defines "convert at most 300 items per production tick"
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19:15<Fast2>Hm, the destination is set for a short time but then discarded (no loading + unload only accepted) (old result, I forgot to send...). New result: The goods get often the destination, but sometimes it gets discarded.
19:18<Fast2>What do you suggest? Increasing the "Linkgraph recalculation interval"?
19:22<andythenorth>I can't use cb14B to get around this industry check problem
19:22<Yexo>Fast2: you'll probably get more help if you post your savegame in the cargodist topic
19:23<andythenorth>indspec->accepts_cargo[0] == i->accepts_cargo[0] evaluates true when cargo slot is empty :x
19:23<andythenorth>fair, but annoying
19:24<Yexo>that seems wrong
19:25<andythenorth>I just tested it :)
19:25<Yexo>I know it does, but it shouldn't do that
19:26<andythenorth>it's conceptually a stupid check anyway
19:27<Terkhen>good night
19:27<@Rubidium>night Terkhen
19:27<Yexo>night Terkhen
19:28<@Rubidium>andythenorth: many things implemented long ago are now, with NewGRFs, considered stupid
19:28-!-Terkhen [] has quit [Quit: ...]
19:29-!-Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
19:29<@Rubidium>yeah, we'll bury you
19:30<Fast2>Yexo: There?
19:30<Yexo>Fast2: yes
19:30<Fast2>Do you know my password? :D
19:31<andythenorth>Rubidium: I guess we find them one by one :D
19:33<Yexo><andythenorth> indspec->accepts_cargo[0] == i->accepts_cargo[0] evaluates true when cargo slot is empty :x <- in r1 there was a special check for an empty cargo slot
19:34<PeterT>why is trying to load original_dos by default?
19:34<Yexo>why not?
19:35<PeterT>It's on a Windows system
19:35<Yexo>he probably doesn't have any graphics set at all, so the first one encountered is shown in the error message
19:35<PeterT>Does it always load dos by default?
19:35<Yexo>the graphics from the ttd dos version load perfectly fine in openttd on any system
19:35<Yexo>or did you also think the ttd windows graphics didn't work on linux?
19:36<andythenorth>Yexo: r1 as in, r1, the first commit?
19:37<Yexo>yes, but only first in the repository
19:37<Yexo>r1 is an import from r975 from an older svn
19:37<PeterT>I thought DOS graphics had adverse affects on windows
19:37<andythenorth>so that went MIA somewhere?
19:37<andythenorth>or is my test flawed?
19:37<Yexo>no, that check was removed at some point
19:38<PeterT>Oh, the image isn't there anymore
19:38<Yexo>PeterT: see Rubidium reply in that topic, the rest is talking nonsense
19:39<PeterT>As usual...
19:40-!-fjb [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:40<@Rubidium>huh, what are you talking about?
19:40<PeterT>Rubidium: That they are mostly just posts until you come along with the real answer
19:42<@Rubidium>why are those new keyboard so much more fragile than the good old keyboard? Makes cleaning them so much trickier :(
19:43<@Rubidium> <- that's what I mean with "good old" :)
19:43<@Rubidium>with a proper steel construction, weighing half a tonne etc.
19:43<Yexo> this fixes the "does an existing industry accept the same cargo" check
19:43-!-fjb [] has joined #openttd
19:44<Wizzleby>Rubidium: somewhere I recall seeing a modern keyboard built like those
19:44<Yexo>but I'm not sure how much sense that whole check makes
19:44-!-bryjen [~bryjen@] has joined #openttd
19:44<@Rubidium>Wizzleby: yeah, those were like 150 dollar or so
19:45<PeterT>Rubidium: What does a "new" one look like?
19:45<Wizzleby>Rubidium: yeah, which is sadly not a shocking price for 'high end' keyboards these days. But still, I'd rather be getting metal construction for $150 than... a plastic piece of crap for the same price
19:46<Wizzleby>PeterT: IIRC, it looked a lot like the picture Rubidium posted, only it was black, had a USB interface
19:46<PeterT>Oh right, I wouldn't consider those hard to clean
19:47<Wizzleby>I think he meant the plastic kind are hard to clean
19:48<@Rubidium>yeah... removing the keys is tricky
19:48-!-Brianetta [] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
19:49<@Rubidium>trying to use a vacuum cleaner ends up with missing keys and/or keys broken from their connecting stuff (same as when you try to remove them manually)
19:50<@Rubidium>the old ones you could just, even with brute force although usually not needed, remove the keys and throw them in some (near) boiling water
19:51<@Rubidium>bah... the paint on my mouse is almost gone on parts (like on my previous laptop)
19:51<PeterT>that usually happens to me with my keys
19:51<@Rubidium>but then, using the mouse for 6 years... that's pretty good I'd say
19:52<OwenS>Rubidium: My mouse is ab out ~11 years old :p
19:52<@Rubidium>now... logitech, why don't you have an option to "opt out" wireless mice in the search?
19:53<OwenS>I'd guess about 10... in any case, the Microsoft logo has almost gone, and it's turned rather yellow :p
19:53<OwenS>On the plus side, it still works perfectly*
19:54<OwenS>*Except for when the sensor gets covered in cat fur. Which affects any optical mouse
19:55-!-tokai [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:56<@Rubidium>OwenS: did they have optical mice back then?
19:56<OwenS>Rubidium: It's an original Wheel Mouse Optical. I.E, very early
19:59<fjb>Microsoft's optical mice are great. They should stick to producing mice.
19:59<@Rubidium>fjb: I want to do the marketing for they keyboards :)
20:00<andythenorth>Yexo: I'm compiling that diff now, although it might really be bed time :o
20:00<@Rubidium>"The new 10.000 character keyboard from Microsoft, now only $29.95"
20:00<@Rubidium>(ever seen the massive list of warnings/manual at the back of their keyboards?)
20:00<fjb>Ok, but they should surely stey away from software and concentrate on things they can.
20:01<andythenorth>Yexo: compile failed with errors
20:01<Yexo>that are 2 harmless warnings, not errors
20:01<@Rubidium>only two warnings? It's easy to generate way more
20:01<andythenorth>definitely bed time
20:02<Yexo>Rubidium: not without making msvc generate some warnings too
20:02-!-Nite_Owl [] has joined #openttd
20:02<@Rubidium>Yexo: <- recently current trunk, assertions disabled, lto (gcc-4.5) enabled
20:03<Nite_Owl>Hello all
20:03<frosch123>night all
20:03<Yexo>Rubidium: that is just a single warning repeated many times
20:03-!-frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:04<@Rubidium>yeah, but the massiveness of the "from" lists
20:04<@Rubidium>and that all caused by a (confirmed) compiler bug
20:05<andythenorth>Yexo: that diff appears to solve the empty cargo slot issue
20:05<andythenorth>and it's a more sane check :)
20:05-!-tokai [] has joined #openttd
20:05-!-mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ
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20:08<DJ_Nekkid>thats a sewingmachine producer you know...
20:08*andythenorth makes plans to recode 20 industries
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20:09*andythenorth considers filing a bug....I have two sawmills near a station, only one gets the cargo :D
20:11<Yexo>andythenorth: FS#3381, you're too late ;)
20:11<andythenorth>more lulz
20:12<andythenorth>funny that a check exists in game to prevent that 9.9
20:12<andythenorth>enough griping
20:12<andythenorth>thanks for help today, those who helped :)
20:13<andythenorth>good night
20:13<PeterT> Typical.
20:13<PeterT>Good night andythenorth
20:13<Nite_Owl>later andythenorth
20:13<Yexo>he probably never tried to extract the zip in the first place
20:13<Yexo>but we'll never now, as he probably won't come back to the forum again now his problem is solved
20:13<PeterT>"I bet it doesn't work anyway"
20:14<PeterT>Doesn't even explain what he did right
20:14-!-andythenorth [] has left #openttd []
20:14<PeterT>for other, future people with similar problems
20:20-!-davis [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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20:31*PeterT wonders what the point of a bouncer is if you don't stay in the channel
20:32<Yexo>hiding your ip address?
20:32<davis>i'd say saving nickname , but theres some nickserv on oftc
20:32<PeterT>Yexo: /whois would show it anyway
20:33<OwenS>PeterT: No, it would show the BNC's
20:33<PeterT>why would you want to hide it, anyway?
20:34<Yexo>use your imagination :)
20:37<roboboy>to avoid being (D)DOSed?
20:37<roboboy>or the risk of it happening
20:38<fjb>And many other things.
20:38<PeterT>good morning, roboboy
20:38<davis>anonymity is something nice on the internet :D
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20:40<PeterT>Interesting modules for iPhones -
20:40<PeterT>Sends you highlight alerts, as if you could respond to them
20:40-!-lobstah [~michielbi@] has joined #openttd
20:40<OwenS>That message triggered my spam detector...
20:41<davis>Interesting viagra for Men -
20:42<OwenS>...That message should have triggered OFTC's spam filters :p
20:43<davis>should have :p
20:43<davis>maybe they love google.
20:43-!-Tennel [] has quit [Quit: WeeChat]
20:44<Yexo>it probably would have triggered it if you posted that in multiple channels or multiple times here
20:44<davis>most certainly
20:44<Yexo>but if a single line would trigger the filtes the you wouldn't even be able to say: "Look what spam we got in there yesterday: ..."
20:44-!-lobstar [~michielbi@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:45<davis>well there could be some keyword trigger
20:45<davis>so e.g viagra and men and some website in one line
20:45-!-bartavel` [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:45-!-bartavelle [] has joined #openttd
20:45<@Rubidium>what spammer writes viagra correctly?
20:46<davis>Andy Dick mayhabs
20:46<Yexo>davis: I get a lot of mail about viagra for men lately, I tried but that didn't work, what do you use? <- it'll also trigger on such lines
20:46<Yexo>it's not that easy :)
20:47<davis>yeah I get your point
20:47<davis>if it'd be that easy to make a perfect spam-filter or protection
20:47<OwenS>I'd kind of expect it to send a message to an op :p
20:47<davis>the botnets would go bankrupt and the internet traffic would fall about 75%
20:48<OwenS>davis: Somewhat less. 50% is BitTorrent
20:48<davis>yeah I had that in mind too
20:48<davis>i can't actually believe that this many people still use torrent , mostly for illegal purposes
20:48<davis>at least in germany they are realy after torrent loaders haha
20:49<@Rubidium>yeah, because we use torrents we don't spend 1500 euros a year on CDs and such
20:49<OwenS>davis: In the UK... they've at most sent threatening letters. And had no court admissible evidence
20:50<@Rubidium>and again... if they close torrents the good people suffer for the bad people
20:50<davis>well I do prefer wuala or rapidshare :P
20:50<davis>for legal purposes ofcourse
20:50<@Rubidium>see airport security madness
20:50<davis>nude scanning
20:50<OwenS>Rubidium: The police really hate things like IPRED. Makes their job so much harder
20:50<@Rubidium>davis: yeah, that method that wouldn't have caught the Christmas bomber
20:51<OwenS>Rubidium: Security Theatre ;-)
20:51<@Rubidium>and that method that can't be legally used for children in most countries
20:51<davis>actually I only been to London heathrow once. And i was lucky enough to witness some arabian looking dude being arested by 5 very angry mp5 armed men.
20:52<davis>now that's all you can wish for , visiting London ;)
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20:52<davis>oh well Rubidium don't be too certain about "legally" doing anything. Just now they banned "killer-games" such as egoshooters in switzerland for the possibly most stupid reason
20:53<davis>it might turn people with mental problems into killing machines , and therefore a general ban is reasonable
20:54<davis>21st cenutry is awesome.
20:54<davis>Me being a bit general now , about every law can be bypassed by another law
20:55<OwenS>If I ruled a country, I would so introduce the death penalty. But only for politicians comitting certain offences.
20:56<davis>you ruling a country you'd be a politican yourself , unless you want to be the Queen :P
20:56<@Rubidium>davis: general?
20:56<OwenS>davis: And therefore bound by my own law. I'd also make modifying said law a real legal quagmire, generally involving the proposer being executed
20:56<davis>going the Korean way?
20:57<davis>yeah that'd work OwenS
20:57<davis>one way or another , about every political system has it's flaws
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20:58<OwenS>(OK, if I were writing a constitution, I'd make modifying it requre two supermajorities in two successive parlimentary terms, then a supermajority from the populace, then in the next term it would require another supermajority in both parliment and with the populace to be kept
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20:59<davis>here we go.
20:59<@Rubidium>the biggest flaw is stupidity and everything related to that (extremism in all forms included)
21:00<@Rubidium>yes, I'd classify the pope as an extremist
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21:00<@Rubidium>oh... there goes the discussion :(
21:00<davis>well , einstein said something about human stupidity I think
21:01<OwenS>Rubidium: Who wouldn't classify the pope as an extremist? Related side note: I watched an interesting debate recently about the catholic church.
21:01<davis>as shocking that might be , there are still a LOT of hardcore believers around
21:02<@Rubidium>OwenS: that the (child) abuse in the church is because of the celibacy?
21:02<OwenS>Rubidium: "Is the catholic church a force for good in the world". Most notable speaker: Stephen Fry. Polling before and after, most audience members voted no before, and even more did so after
21:03<@Rubidium>OwenS: yeah, saw that... that was good :)
21:03<davis>I'am always good for a round of church bashing.
21:03<_newage_>common do you have to discuss religious stuff now? perverts are near kids in churchs, holiday trips, schools...
21:04<davis>or on irc
21:04<OwenS>I want the "Is europe failing it's muslims" debate footage to be posted already >_<
21:04<_newage_>:D yeah
21:04<@Rubidium>_newage_: with perverts you mean the priests, right?
21:05<davis>catholic schools are no good for your kid
21:05<_newage_>no priests, not exactly
21:06<OwenS>Any religious education is bad, whether catholic, protestant, muslim, jewish or atheist...
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21:06<_newage_>or a politic party ideology
21:07<davis>well OwenS , that might be a bit harsh. I think religion is just fine as long you don't overdo it
21:07<davis>Though iam a non believer myself :c
21:07<OwenS>davis: And a religious school does so. Education should always be agnostic; otherwise closes minds
21:07<fjb>Men inveted god. So what ist that invention good for?
21:07<@Rubidium>davis: but is "forcing" your child to pray before lunch overdoing it or not?
21:08<_newage_>a person who can't take knowing he is going right to the worms is a shame
21:08<@Rubidium>fjb: subdueing others
21:08<davis>In my humble Opinion it is overdoing it by far haha
21:08<fjb>Rubidium: good answer.
21:08<Fast2>Now, it seems to work altough I did not change anything important...
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21:09<@Rubidium>fjb: i.e. a theocracy, e.g. Iran and possibly the USA
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21:09<fjb>Not only possibly the USA. And the leading German party is also christian.
21:09<davis>I was baptized protestant , but noone ever forced me to go anywhere , pray to anyone or believe anything
21:10<davis>that however led me to not going to church for almost 15 years now :D
21:10<_newage_>theocracies are scaring, I don't know how people can have some sympathy for the americans
21:11<davis>"9/11 changed everything"
21:11<@Rubidium>fjb: true, but... "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the USA and the republic for which it stands: one nation under GOD..."
21:11<@Rubidium>does Germany have something like that that is drilled DAILY on school?
21:12<fjb>No, it did not really change everything. It only made it easier for the security industry and for the militare.
21:12<_newage_>when they say GOd they mean: US, the government!
21:13<fjb>Rubidium: Not yet. But politicians started to talk about teaching creationism at school.
21:13<@Rubidium>fjb: and to make it even more fun... do they pledge allegiance to the flag when entering an amusement park?
21:14<@Rubidium>Germany is so much farther from being a theocracy than the USA
21:14<fjb>Rubidium: Things are not done that obvious here. And we are far from the way the USA is doing things. But it starts here.
21:14<davis>Germany got a east-German chancelor :p
21:14<fjb>Yes, but a christian one.
21:15<davis>America was choosen by the lord to bring peace and democracy to the world
21:15<davis>preferable the nations with oil.
21:16<@Rubidium>davis: that's probably a broken translation... "... to bring pieces and demo crazy to the world"
21:16<davis>my bad , excuse me :P
21:17<@Rubidium>so... there went my chance to go to the US...
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21:18<CIA>logged and saved.
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21:18<fjb>You can deduce everything from a false assumption. That god exists is a false assumption.
21:18<davis>god is dead.
21:18<@Rubidium>hopefully the commonwealths still allow me though :)
21:19<davis>yeah GB is pretty open :D
21:20<davis>though it can get pretty scary if they ask you to bootup your laptop at the airport and you got the wrong custom-bootscreen :p
21:20<davis>e.g a countdown
21:21<@Rubidium>"sorry", can you give me the bag you just put through the scanner? :)
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21:22<@Rubidium>never experienced that though
21:22<@Rubidium>and I've seen my fair share of crazy TSAers
21:23<@Rubidium>Transportation Security Administration
21:23<davis>dangerous species.
21:24<davis>oh well enough security/religion/nation/priest/pedophiles bashing for now :)
21:24<@Rubidium>all extremists! :)
21:25<davis>that's of course a matter of fact :D
21:25<@Rubidium>oh, did I already say the Dutch are stupid?
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21:28<_newage_>bloody dutchs!
21:28<_newage_>:D only joking
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21:49<PeterT>Ahh - The wiki is finally back to a normal amount of edits per day
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