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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-03-20

---Logopened Sat Mar 20 00:00:13 2010
---Daychanged Sat Mar 20 2010
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02:51<OTTDnoob>How do I place a "normal signal"
02:52<OTTDnoob>Im looking at a tutorial and it says the following
02:52<OTTDnoob>Notice the signals around the loop are all one-way. To place a one-way signal place a signal as normal, then click the signal again, once or twice depending on the orientation you want for your signal.
02:52<OTTDnoob>But I don't know how to "place a oneway signal as a normal signal
02:53<OTTDnoob>Is a one way entry signal a "normal signal"?
02:55<Yexo>" To place a one-way signal place a signal as normal, then click the signal again" <- what is meant is: "just build a normal signal by clicking on the tile, this will build a twoway signal (at least it did with old openttd builds). After you bulid a twoway signal keep the build-signal tool open and click the tile with the signal again"
02:56<Yexo>that part probably needs to be rewritten if path signals are the default signal type
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02:59<OTTDnoob>I think I got it...I was using oneway entry signals but I think I should have been using block signals..I misread what the block signal does
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04:22<Alberth>good morning
04:23<Alberth>I'd expect a newgrf debug button somewhere in the newgrf window
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04:48<andythenorth>Alberth: in addition to my other suggestions, or instead of?
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04:50<Alberth>Don't know. For industry, there is a simple 1-to-1 relation between newgrf objects and gui windows. For other newgrfs it may be less simple (eg a house, bridge, cost factors, etc)
04:50<Alberth>(but you know that better than I do :) )
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04:51<andythenorth>Alberth: I have never coded a bridge or house :)
04:51<andythenorth>or a station
04:53<Alberth>Also, I cannot estimate how much more tricky it gets if you'd only have one button related with a single newgrf instead of one for each use of it (like what you seem to suggest).
04:54<Alberth>perhaps you'd need to have a list of 'uses' or so in that debug window
04:54<Muxy>Hi there, What does mean the error "disconnecting vehicle ?"
04:54<Muxy>"Disconnecting Road Vehicle"
04:54<Alberth>we have that error in the game?
04:55<Muxy>Yes, on win32 client side it appears with MessageBox
04:55<andythenorth>probably an articulated road vehicle that has come apart for some reason
04:55<Alberth>Nope, we only have a disconnecting network: "STR_NETWORK_CONNECTION_DISCONNECT :{BLACK}Disconnect"
04:55<Alberth>it must be a NewGRF message
04:56<Muxy>and on server it appears on the console
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04:56<Alberth>error messages tend to pop up everywhere :)
04:56<Muxy>and server process stops
04:56<Alberth>but it is a NewGRF message, so ask its author.
04:57<Muxy>on client after "ok" on the messagebox i have the fatal application failure
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04:59<Alberth>Muxy: NewGRF are not simple graphics additions, they run as part of the game and share data structures etc, so yes, a broken NewGRF can bring down the game.
04:59<Terkhen>good morning
04:59<Alberth>good morning Terkhen and planetmaker
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04:59<planetmaker>Muxy: you want some savegames which will crash OpenTTD due to now unavailable but compatibly marked newgrfs? :-D
05:00<andythenorth>hi Terkhen
05:00<Alberth>planetmaker: he already has one :)
05:00<planetmaker>hehe :-)
05:00<planetmaker>I have at least one. With a very very early FIRS version with now very incompatible industries... 100% chance of instant crash ;)
05:01<planetmaker>Though old ISR savegames are good, too
05:01<planetmaker>Alberth: did I read that correcly somehow when briefly scanning history, that newgrf debug features are thought of?
05:02<Alberth>andythenorth has such thoughts at the dev(?) forum
05:02<planetmaker>Not a bad thought :-)
05:03<Alberth>just pushing him a bit to make it useful for all newgrfs :)
05:03<andythenorth>I only drew the icon. Yexo provided the initial patch :)
05:03<Muxy>Ok Alberth i found the error
05:04<Muxy> if (dir == INVALID_TRACKDIR) {
05:04<Muxy> if (!IsRoadVehFront(v)) error("Disconnecting road vehicle.");
05:04<Muxy> v->cur_speed = 0;
05:04<Muxy> return false;
05:04<Muxy> }
05:04<planetmaker>ah, that looks VERY useful indeed
05:04<Muxy>nothing to do with newgrf
05:04<andythenorth>planetmaker: that patch was life saving the last few days
05:04<planetmaker>Muxy: that's newgrf
05:05<planetmaker>or can be
05:05<planetmaker>articulated vs. non-articulated for instance
05:05<planetmaker>or tram vs. road
05:05<planetmaker>and stuff
05:05<planetmaker>if you mix up IDs of vehicles in different versions
05:06<planetmaker>andythenorth: I do believe so :-)
05:06<andythenorth>Muxy: what newgrf are you using?
05:06<planetmaker>I just downloaded it for future usage :-)
05:06<Muxy>letme check on my server config
05:07<Eddi|zuHause>[20.03.2010 02:12] <Rubidium> fjb: true, but... "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the USA and the republic for which it stands: one nation under GOD..."
05:07<Eddi|zuHause>[20.03.2010 02:12] <Rubidium> does Germany have something like that that is drilled DAILY on school?
05:07<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know about west germany, but in east germany there was some sort of oath spoken every day in school. being communistic it tended to avoid religion, though, but does that really matter?
05:07<Muxy>generictrams_v0.4 on server
05:08<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: we never had any such thing ever in school
05:08<andythenorth>Muxy: can't help then, sorry :) Glad it's not my grf then.
05:08<Eddi|zuHause>my memorys back then are kind of vague...
05:08<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: my memorys of yesterday are kind of vague :)
05:08<Alberth>Muxy: roadveh.cpp does not exist in trunk
05:08<planetmaker>Only two times I pledged to serve the state faithfully (not swear though) was in the army and when I took my current job
05:09<Muxy>roadveh_cmd.cpp, sorry
05:09<Muxy>hum forget to mention i was in 0.7.5
05:09<Eddi|zuHause>anyway... there's an official oath in germany, which includes a phrase like "so god helps me", where the rules allow replacing "god" with any deity you wish, or leave out the phrase entirely
05:10<planetmaker>yes, indeed. So that's up to whoever takes the oath
05:11<planetmaker>Without the last half-sentence it would be against §4 GG
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05:19<Muxy>cant understand how newgrf can be involved in the "Disconnecting Road Vehicle" error
05:23<planetmaker>Muxy: I told you how :-)
05:23<planetmaker>[10:05] <planetmaker> articulated vs. non-articulated for instance
05:23<planetmaker>[10:05] <planetmaker> or tram vs. road
05:23<planetmaker>[10:05] <planetmaker> and stuff
05:23<planetmaker>[10:05] <planetmaker> if you mix up IDs of vehicles in different versions
05:24<Muxy>what does mean : if you mix up IDs blablabla
05:24<Muxy>did you take in account that ONLY generictrams was used ?
05:25<Terkhen>if you use different versions of a single GRF in the same savegame, you can mess it up too
05:26<andythenorth>Muxy: what version of OTTD?
05:26<Muxy>i use ONLY generictrams.grf
05:26<Muxy>[10:09] <Muxy> hum forget to mention i was in 0.7.5
05:27<Terkhen>that's what I said, single GRF, different versions
05:27<Terkhen>or even only a GRF that has some kind of bug or problem
05:28<Muxy>diffrent version of what
05:28<Terkhen>[10:26:00] <Terkhen> if you use different versions of a single GRF in the same savegame, you can mess it up too
05:28<Muxy>how can you do this ?
05:29<Alberth>make a save game with one version, play further with another (updated) one
05:29<Muxy>the game was running on dedicated forked server
05:30<Alberth>you start from an empty world?
05:31<Alberth>euhm, to be clear, 'empty' in the sense that you create a new world, rather than load a save game
05:32<Muxy>no savegame has been loaded
05:32<Muxy>just started the server
05:34<Alberth>I don't have enough experience with newgrfs to know how to proceed, I am afraid.
05:35<Alberth>One thing you could do is to check whether a recent 1.0 version (or a nightly) still has this problem.
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05:59<erani>I wonder if this has been asked before, but are the open music tracks going to be included in 1.0.0 release?
06:00<planetmaker>no, but you can opt to download them in the installer. Same as with sounds and graphcs base sets
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06:01<erani>ah, I meant that. but they are available already? nifty
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07:11<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r19478 /trunk/src/ (town_cmd.cpp town_gui.cpp town_type.h): -Codechange: Resolve TS_ prefix clash between TileSource and TownSize enums.
07:11<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r19479 /trunk/src/ (town_cmd.cpp town_type.h): -Codechange: Test range of town size and layout instead of against the current last value.
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08:21<CIA-6>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19480 /trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp: -Fix: Stop reducing the size of the vehicle list after selecting a vehicle with a long description.
08:28<andythenorth>I have a problem and would like some advice on the right thing to do:
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08:51<PeterT>why does a bind usually fail?
08:51<PeterT>dbg: [net] Listening on
08:51<PeterT>dbg: [net] [server] could not start network: bind() failed
08:51<PeterT>I keep setting the port to 3978, but it goes back to 3979
08:54<Ammler>why do you like to use 3978?
08:54<PeterT>I already have a server on 3979
08:55<Ammler>maybe it doesn't allow 3978 because that is used for the advertising..
08:55<@DorpsGek>Ammler: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
08:55<Alberth>and 3979 fails since there is another server using that port
08:55<PeterT>oh oh
08:55<PeterT>makes sense
08:56<PeterT>thanks, i'll try again in a sec
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09:08<andythenorth>fetching the town index for an industry - I'm thinking that's not too expensive to do?
09:11<Alberth>Industry has a Town *town field, so most likely, no :)
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09:15<PeterT>Ok. I just set it to 3980, and it still tried to bind to 2979
09:17<planetmaker>you possibly modified the wrong cfg?
09:18<PeterT>I don't think so - I just tried ./openttd -D -c "openttd.cfg"
09:18<PeterT>and it still didn't work
09:18<Alberth>you also use a -D [ip][:port] = Start dedicated server parameter?
09:21<Ammler>what if you grep for 3979 in the cfg?
09:22<PeterT>Ammler: I know I've changed it, but whenever I start openttd -D, it changes server_port back to 3979
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09:23<Ammler>and you changed the cfg while openttd was down?
09:24<PeterT>I just changed server_port to 3980 again, and when I did ./openttd -D, it changed it back to 3979 in the config
09:24<PeterT>maybe 3980 is also being used O_o
09:25<Alberth>did you change the 3978 port too?
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09:25<PeterT>No, I haven't touched 3978, I think?
09:25<Alberth>perhaps that one doesn't work, and then the program uses the default values again
09:25<PeterT>I just tried 3985
09:25<+glx>you can't change 3978 in the config
09:26<Ammler>and you are sure, there is no openttd running somewhere else?
09:26<Ammler>ps ax | grep openttd
09:26<PeterT> 3778 pts/1 S+ 2:39 ./openttd -D -g save/Earth Multi 2.sav
09:26<PeterT>11829 pts/0 S+ 0:00 grep --color=auto openttd
09:27<Ammler>and that openttd runs on 3979?
09:28<PeterT> <-- yes
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09:29<Ammler>maybe it is because you use ! in front of server name...
09:29<PeterT>Oh, you're one of them
09:29<OwenS>OpenTTD really ought to use a sort function which ignores punctuation for it's server list...
09:30<Alberth>no use, people will use letters instead
09:30<Ammler>then you will have aaaaaaaBestServer
09:31<Alberth>or 00000000000000PickMe
09:31<OwenS>OK. How about this sort func: (int) rand()? :P
09:31<PeterT>OwenS: Way to go, now my problem will never be solve
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09:31<andythenorth>Terkhen: fancy running another FIRS test?
09:31<Ammler>PeterT: do they share same cfg?
09:31<PeterT>they aren't even on the same user
09:31<OwenS>(Hmm, no need for cast; rand returns a signed int :-) )
09:31<Alberth>OwenS: that function is not transitive
09:32<Alberth>OwenS: a<b and b<c should imply a<c
09:32<OwenS>Alberth: I'm aware of that. I'm also aware MS screwed up by using it to randomly sort their browser ballot screen ;-)
09:32<OwenS>OK, sort function of (server->randNum); :P. Or even by IP address :p
09:33<Ammler>hmm, I can confirm -D ip:port doesn't work here either
09:34<PeterT>That's a start
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09:34<PeterT>seems like OpenTTD (no matter what it says in the config) uses the default port
09:35<andythenorth>@seen pikka
09:35<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 23 hours, 27 minutes, and 29 seconds ago: <Pikka> variable 13 :)
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09:36<Ammler>but ./openttd -D -c test.cfg works
09:36<Ammler>cp openttd.cfg test.cfg and change the port
09:37*andythenorth tries to figure out using tile slope detection to draw quarry sprites
09:37<PeterT>No, it doesn't work for me
09:38<Ammler>it might be possible -D ip:port works only with ip addresses mentioned in the server_bind_addresses seciont
09:38<PeterT>dbg: [net] Detected broadcast addresses:
09:38<PeterT>dbg: [net] 0)
09:38<PeterT>dbg: [net] 1)
09:38<PeterT>Which is ok
09:39<Ammler>could you paste your cfg...
09:39<PeterT>Through SSH?
09:40<Ammler>well, the network section
09:40<Ammler>and the addresses section
09:41<PeterT>what addresses section?
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09:43<jano>i am trying to compile openttd by myself
09:43<jano>what exactly is in package named "openttd useful"?
09:43<jano>do i need it?
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09:43<jano>i dont want do download unecessary things because i have only mobile internet connection
09:43<Terkhen>andythenorth: okay, but using the patch is really easy to do them :P
09:44<PeterT>jano: It has the things needed to compile OpenTTD
09:44<andythenorth>Terkhen: ok, maybe I should compile that :)
09:44<PeterT>Ammler: anything wrong with it?
09:44<jano>PeterT: zlib, libpng, freetype ...?
09:45<PeterT>jano: if you don't want want * compression, don't get zlib. If you don't want to make png screenshots, don't get libpng
09:45<PeterT>but then you have to remove the preprocessor definitions for those files
09:46<PeterT>jano: if you are tight on space, MSVC is definately _not_ the way to go
09:46<Ammler>[14:40] <PeterT> what addresses section? <-- [server_bind_addresses]
09:46<OwenS>WTF. Who sents a website invitation to a fricking mailing list?!
09:46<PeterT>Ammler: no such section?
09:46<Ammler>then add it and try again
09:47<andythenorth>town index goes to 255?
09:47<jano>PeterT: i already have VS2008Express and DirectX SDK
09:47<Ammler>entry could be
09:47<Ammler>or you can specify you prefered ip
09:48<PeterT>I thought server_bind_ip = would be that
09:48<Ammler>if that works, you might report a fs
09:48<Ammler>that is depreciated since ipv6 support
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09:49<PeterT>It doesn't work
09:49<PeterT>for some reason, it keeps trying for 3979
09:49<Ammler>and that is a unpatched clean 0.7.5 server?
09:49<PeterT>No, patched
09:49<PeterT>Why would that make a difference?
09:50<Ammler>try with clean please
09:50<Ammler>just try with unpatched trunk, if it fails report again...
09:51<Ammler>that is the way you have to go with every issue, btw.
09:53*andythenorth ponders different some pseudo-random values
09:55<andythenorth>town index might be pseudo-random enough to distribute industry closures
09:55<andythenorth>the other three things I'm currently doing might be redundant
09:56<Hirundo>What's so non-random about the normal random bits?
09:57<andythenorth>there's no 'spread'...
09:57<andythenorth>it's slightly complicated by trying to have two different kinds of industry closing behaviour
09:58<andythenorth>industry random bits should work for large slices.
09:59<andythenorth>Hirundo: here is a better explanation: I don't want true random, I want random as people often think it should be: evenly distributed
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09:59<andythenorth>i.e. pseudo-random
09:59<PeterT>Ammler: works with clean trunk
09:59<PeterT>Ammler: not trunk, clean 0.7.5
09:59<PeterT>Ammler: Something in the patch :-(
09:59<Hirundo>Is the number of towns on the map available to the grf?
10:00<andythenorth>the town index is
10:00<PeterT>Ammler: +;
10:00<PeterT>Damn game!
10:01<Hirundo>You may get into trouble with small maps (<256^2) or very few towns
10:01<andythenorth>your right
10:01<andythenorth>town index + industry random bits should do it
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10:01<andythenorth>if that doesn't work, I give up
10:03<andythenorth>if some grf-local global storage was available, I could stop dicking around with a near-impossible task
10:05<Ammler>now I wonder why -D didn't work on my server
10:05<Hirundo>How many random bits are available? 32?
10:05<frosch123>16 iirc
10:05<andythenorth>In the industry? It's a dword, with random in three of the bytes, trigger in the other
10:06<frosch123>and some pseudorandom
10:06<andythenorth>I am going by spec, not code - I could be wrong
10:06<andythenorth>var 5F
10:06<frosch123>the last byte of 5f is zero for industries :)
10:06<Hirundo>8 per tile and 16 per industry, according to
10:07<andythenorth>how about a dword for an industry that was guaranteed to be unique?
10:07<andythenorth> must have some kind of instance ID in game?
10:07<Hirundo>Why does it *have* to be unique?
10:07<andythenorth>to prevent two industries closing in the same month
10:08<frosch123>isn't that silly on a map with hundreds of industries?
10:08<andythenorth>two industries of same type might make sense
10:08<andythenorth>two industries of different types - definitely silly :)
10:09<frosch123>andythenorth: imo the task is best solved by making the random production change callback depend on number of industries instead of map size
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10:10<andythenorth>frosch123: so instead of the industry trying to decided closure on a ticker, we wait for the game to come by at some random point?
10:10<frosch123>depending on an absolute number of industries is just as wrong as doing the same amount of random changes independent whether there are 10 or 1000 industries
10:11<andythenorth>random might work.
10:11<andythenorth>that's what the random production change cb is *supposed* to be for :)
10:11<frosch123>random production change callback should work well for industry closure unless you have very few industries on a big map
10:12<frosch123>e.g. starting 2048x2048 with no industries just causes havoc currently :p
10:12<andythenorth> I have two cases.
10:12<andythenorth>The first is industries that should wait a certain time for no cargo, then go 'BOOM' very quickly
10:13<andythenorth>I think that is nearly handled by the pseudo-random nonsense I have coded
10:13<andythenorth>Preventing two closing in one month is just a gameplay optimisation in that case.
10:13<andythenorth>it looks nicer
10:13<andythenorth>The second case is preventing the mass wave of closures of other secondary industry five years into game
10:14<andythenorth>I think that the random production change cb + a protection period should cover that
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10:14<andythenorth>again, the two-in-one-month is an optimisation
10:15<andythenorth>So likely there is no problem here - except for the scaling of the random production change cb with number of industries
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10:25<andythenorth>hi Pikka
10:27<andythenorth>frosch123: I imagine we can't move actual industry closure (deletion) from the monthly loop to the daily loop?
10:28<frosch123>the random production change is in the daily loop
10:28<PeterT>Ammler: I fixed it
10:28<andythenorth>frosch123: my suggested change wouldn't work anywya
10:28<frosch123>the monthly cb is on 1st, which is very much expected by certain grfs
10:28<andythenorth>I was proposing moving the code that does the deletion from map
10:29<PeterT>had to change
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10:29*andythenorth hmmms
10:30<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r19481 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Turn _industry_counts into a static member of Industry.
10:31<andythenorth>if (i->prod_level == PRODLEVEL_CLOSURE) { delete i }; could be moved to end of ChangeIndustryProduction?
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10:34<Pikka>hi andythenorth
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10:37<Ammler>PeterT: I hope you learned from it, I had too :-)
10:38<PeterT>Oh yes
10:38<PeterT>I learned how to "code"
10:38<PeterT>and to try things with a non-patched version
10:39<PeterT>and to explain the _entire_ situation
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11:14*andythenorth wonders why setting industry special flag 1 (cut trees) causes the game to blow up?
11:14*andythenorth experiments
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11:16<Alberth>OpenTTD is made of trees
11:18<andythenorth>Assertion failed at line 79 of /Users/andy/Documents/workspace/OTTD/trunk/src/industry_map.h: IsTileType(t, MP_INDUSTRY)
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11:21<frosch123> <- would that improve behaviour?
11:21<dih>new saxophone mic
11:21<dih>new saxophone mouth piece
11:23<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r19482 /trunk/src/ (town_cmd.cpp tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp vehicle_cmd.cpp): -Doc: Doxygen additions/updates.
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11:28<frosch123>andythenorth: let me guess, it happens for industries where the north tile is not an industry tile
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11:28<frosch123>ChopLumberMillTrees checks whether the north tile is completeted before chopping
11:29<frosch123>which asserts if that tile does not actually belong to the industry
11:29<andythenorth>FIRS has nothing to handle industry construction stages...could the two be related?
11:30<andythenorth>scrub that
11:30<andythenorth>I've found a layout that has no tile for xy location 00 00
11:30<frosch123>hmm, no. i mean you specified an industry to chop trees which has no tile at offset (0,0) of the layout
11:30<andythenorth>yup what you just said
11:31<andythenorth>well that was fun
11:31<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r19483 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Codechange: Code layout fixes, and parentheses reduction.
11:31<andythenorth>frosch123 I was considering setting every secondary industry to chop trees as a way of avoiding the location check
11:32<frosch123>you should do that for industries before 1930 or so
11:32<planetmaker>the baker baking bread stright from the ground-down pine tree
11:33<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r19484 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Rename parameter 'x' of CalcBridgeLenCostFactor() to 'length'.
11:33<andythenorth>frosch123: I'm stuck :| What would you do:
11:33<andythenorth>If I make the wrong decision, I end up having to rework my code (due to the game being improved)
11:34<frosch123>i cannot remember the old discussions about distributing cargo to multiple industries
11:35<andythenorth>Rubidium doesn't like the idea.
11:37<andythenorth>I was hoping to get a 0.1 release of FIRS soon, but I'm blocked by this. All code dies, but ideally not too soon :)
11:37*andythenorth feels like having an OzTrans moment
11:38<andythenorth>specifically, if Yexo's patch for AcceptSameCargo is going in trunk, then I know I can use cb14B safely
11:39<planetmaker>andythenorth: a quick check shows that your hedges fix seems to improve the situation.
11:39<frosch123>but isn't that code exactly what you need to prevent industry clusters :p
11:39<planetmaker>not yet :-) I'm just cross-checking
11:39<andythenorth>frosch123: the 14 tile check? no
11:40<andythenorth>it's in the right direction, but it's the wrong approach. Yexo showed a better patch for that based on tile checks.
11:41<andythenorth>I guess I should separate my problems.
11:41<andythenorth>I have one problem for FIRS dev where I just need to know which gamble to take
11:41<andythenorth>And I have conceptual / gameplay / usability dislikes of the way the secondary industry check is done, full stop :)
11:41<andythenorth>Whether FIRS exists or not, that check is just wrong
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11:45<andythenorth>frosch123: I'll compile your patch and test
11:46<andythenorth>I'll have to modify my nfo so it might be a little while ;)
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11:52<planetmaker> <-- andythenorth
11:52<andythenorth>it's better
11:52<andythenorth>ship it :)
11:53<planetmaker>do you want your full name shipped?
11:53<planetmaker>in the credits (dunno, are you there already?)
11:54<planetmaker>nvm, you are
11:59<andythenorth>I am :)
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12:16<andythenorth>frosch123 et al
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12:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r19485 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Re-implement CalcBridgeLenCostFactor() in a more readable way without changing computed costs.
12:47<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r19486 /trunk/src/ (autoreplace.cpp tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: Code style, move var declarations closer to their first use.
12:53<OwenS>I'm tempted to design an absolutely insidious device which takes IP packets and fragments them maximally (I.e. turns an N byte packet into N 1 byte fragments), then transmits them in random order
12:53<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r19487 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Removed non-reachable return statement.
12:55<Alberth>OwenS: too predictable, send some bigger packets too :)
12:55<OwenS>Alberth: The idea is to make the connection work, but work really badly. Fragmenting a ~1000 byte packet into 1000 chunks is gonna A) mean 95% overhead and B) Mean insane packet loss
13:00<Noldo>why don't you just drop and delay randomly
13:00*andythenorth decides the sky is not falling, and fixes some trivial bugs, (and compiles the production change patch)
13:03<OwenS>Noldo: Because fragmenting things to silly levels is more fun and insidious
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13:08<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r19488 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Use last_error data for removal in CmdRailTrackHelper() as well.
13:10<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r19489 /trunk/src/vehicle_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Introduce a had_success variable in SendAllVehiclesToDepot().
13:13<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r19490 /trunk/src/terraform_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Return to old behaviour of CmdLevelLand() by keeping track of last error.
13:14<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r19491 /trunk/src/road_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Keep track of last error in CmdRemoveLongRoad().
13:19<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r19492 /trunk/src/landscape.cpp: -Codechange: Keep track of last error in CmdClearArea().
13:22<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r19493 /trunk/src/vehicle_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Keep track of last error in CmdDepotSellAllVehicles().
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13:58<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r19494 /trunk/src/ (21 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Remove _error_message.
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14:05<PeterT>can parameters be combined, for example "./openttd -DMg 'savegame'"
14:07<planetmaker>./openttd -D -g blubber.sav
14:08<PeterT>I know
14:08<PeterT>but you can
14:08<PeterT>combine them, like I've shown above?
14:08<planetmaker>try it.
14:08<planetmaker>faster than asking ;-)
14:09<PeterT>Nope - you cannot
14:12<andythenorth>these are nice sprites
14:13<frosch123>and why did petert still not volunteer for coding it?
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14:15<PeterT>oh, so THAT's what you were talking about!
14:16<andythenorth>should I just try and patch this industry check thing. you guys can see it's driving me nuts.
14:16<andythenorth>I hate patching without knowing what I'm doing :|
14:16<PeterT>frosch123: I can't code GRFs
14:17<PeterT>frosch123: correction, I don't know how to
14:17<andythenorth>PeterT: I wasn't exactly born coding grfs
14:17<PeterT>I probably could, if I had the time and patience
14:17<andythenorth>oh you corrected yourself :)
14:17<PeterT>andythenorth: how did you get started?
14:17<andythenorth>I forgt
14:17<andythenorth>forget /s
14:18<andythenorth>I think zephyris gave me an nfo for that I could tweak sprite offsets in his code.
14:18<andythenorth>Then I ended up coding the rest of the whole thing :P
14:19<andythenorth>PeterT Pikka wiki is your friend to get started
14:19<PeterT>not the ttdpatch wiki?
14:19<andythenorth>google it
14:19<PeterT>I know what it is, silly andythenorth
14:19<andythenorth>I learnt the basics by formatting and commenting an uncommented and unformatted nfo
14:20<andythenorth>that was two years ago. now there is a lot more commented nfo around to learn from
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14:21<andythenorth>and a lot of it is GPL so you can borrow from it
14:21<PeterT>I don't even know the difference between an action and a callback
14:21<andythenorth>learn by doing...
14:22<Ammler>simply don't use things you don't know for start...
14:22<andythenorth>just make a train appear.
14:22<Ammler>you can make quite a lot without cbs
14:22<andythenorth>use the BROS teaser I's on the devzone
14:22<PeterT>I wouldn't know, because I don't know what they are
14:22<planetmaker>callbacks are only necessary, if you really want to do the advanced things
14:22<andythenorth>BROS teaser is simple, one engine.
14:23<PeterT>I'll look at that
14:23<planetmaker>good starter then :-) ^
14:23<andythenorth>I'm wrong
14:23<planetmaker>Or look at the logic engine by Ammler
14:23<andythenorth>maybe I only have the BROS teaser locally :o
14:23<planetmaker>that's one engine only, too
14:23<planetmaker>maybe not even sprites, dunno
14:23<PeterT>andythenorth: the GRF is available on the devzone
14:23<PeterT>andythenorth: I can decode it, I'm re-installing GRFCodec
14:24<planetmaker>Also install nforenum. Quite important
14:24<PeterT>I'll make a C:\Coding folder
14:24<planetmaker>I'd recommend a mingw/msys environment for the sake of makefiles ;-)
14:25<andythenorth>bros teaser has a fricking error in it <embarassed>
14:25<PeterT>Yes, I have MSYS
14:25<PeterT>don't know if I have the libraries needed though
14:27<PeterT>downloaded, andy
14:28<andythenorth>that's a grf setup in the coop style
14:28<andythenorth>uses a make file and a certain folder structure
14:28<andythenorth>it's faster to develop, but there are more dependencies
14:28<planetmaker>hehe :-)
14:29<PeterT>How does the code "know" where the sprites are located in relative to the size of the picture?
14:29<PeterT>For example:
14:29<andythenorth>got an nfo file open?
14:29<PeterT>Not yet
14:29<andythenorth>get the BROS teaser, then sprites/nfo/class20.pnfo
14:30<PeterT>why does Notepad++ highlight everything in black for .nfo files? :/
14:31<PeterT>2 * 32 00 00 \b12 01 20 // Action 0
14:32<PeterT>So you've told me that this shows Action 0, andythenorth
14:35<andythenorth>action 0 defines properties
14:36<andythenorth>further down there is an action 4 for the name text
14:36<andythenorth>then an action 1 which defines 1 set of 8 'real' sprites
14:36<andythenorth>then the action 2 and action 3
14:37<andythenorth>that's it for a normal vehicle
14:37<andythenorth>if you can get it building, you can try making changes
14:40<PeterT>what does "-1" mean?
14:40<PeterT>in "-1 sprites/diesels/class20.pcx 04 01 01 20 8 -3 -10
14:41<andythenorth>it's a placeholder for the sprite number, nforenum turns it into the correct number
14:41<andythenorth>compare bros-teaser.nfo
14:41<PeterT>no pfno?
14:42<PeterT>Oh, I see
14:42<andythenorth>pnfo is what we use for coop style build environments. it uses the c preprocessor to template nfo files
14:42<PeterT>is the "compression" always 01?
14:43<andythenorth>well, I do know
14:43<PeterT>can I delete __MACOSX?
14:43<planetmaker>it's not. But it's nothing to worry about initially too much
14:43<andythenorth>sorry I should have cleaned the zip
14:43<planetmaker>(referring to compression)
14:43<PeterT>Alright, give me a minute while I set this up:
14:45<planetmaker> <-- I can also recommend that ;)
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19495 /trunk/src/lang/ (esperanto.txt luxembourgish.txt polish.txt):
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: esperanto - 14 changes by kristjan
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: greek - 4 changes by
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: lithuanian - 2 changes by
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 3 changes by Phreeze
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: polish - 1 changes by silver_777
14:45<PeterT>Sure - if I ever need to make a FIRS-like GRF
14:46<PeterT>Is it really necesarry to make a makefile for such test GRFs?
14:46<andythenorth>I think it's better to learn without the make file
14:46<andythenorth>then you appreciate the make file more :)
14:46<planetmaker>^ probably good, yes
14:46<andythenorth>and you know what the tools are doing
14:46<planetmaker>^ that's the important part
14:47<planetmaker>anyway... party time! :-) See you tomorrow
14:47<PeterT>Have fun, planetmaker
14:48<planetmaker>ty, I will :-)
14:50<PeterT>andythenorth: Is commenting available in the same format as C++ code?
14:50<PeterT>for example:
14:50<PeterT>if (IHaveAHorse) /* It will eat grass */
14:53<frosch123>when using pnfo you it is the same, plain nfo only knows //
14:54<PeterT>Will NFORenum take care of that?
14:54<PeterT>covert the /* to //
14:54<frosch123>no, the c preprocesser removes them
14:54<andythenorth>stick to //
14:55<andythenorth>nfo rarely benefits from massive comments :)
14:55<andythenorth>it's so limited that it's surprisingly readable once you are used to it
14:55<andythenorth>most things follow the same structure / pattern
14:56<andythenorth>also, there's almost *no* room for code (design) style choices
14:56<andythenorth>you can format different ways, but mostly there is one way to do something and that's it
14:56<PeterT>got it
14:57<andythenorth>so fewer style decisions = easier coding, and reading
14:57<PeterT>andythenorth: Yes, you were born being able to code
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14:58<andythenorth>no I was born being able to build Lego, everything else just followed from that
14:58<andythenorth>nfo is a bit like this:
14:59<Hirundo>That's nice stuff :)
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14:59<+glx>that's crazy
14:59<andythenorth>coding FIRS is a bit like building this monster, only I keep running out of the pieces I need :|
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15:01<Terkhen>andythenorth: the missing pieces are always at the end of the box or inside whatever your brother is building
15:01<andythenorth>nowadays the missing pieces are here:
15:01<PeterT>That isn't hard to build - it just requires good instructions :-P
15:02<PeterT>andythenorth: so I have GRFCodec and NFORenum
15:02<PeterT>anything missing?
15:02<andythenorth>PeterT: no instructions...
15:02<andythenorth>PeterT: no
15:02<andythenorth>I have no idea how you use them on windows though :0
15:02<Terkhen>nice :P
15:02<PeterT>make a shortcut to cmd.exe and run grfcodec there
15:03<OwenS>andythenorth: Speaking of Lego, is very impressive
15:04<andythenorth>OwenS: indeed
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15:04<OwenS>One of the most atmospheric things I've ever seen made out of ABS
15:12<andythenorth>how to test the random cb patch by frosch123 ....
15:12<PeterT>andythenorth: do I move grfcodec.exe to the folder in which the GRF I am (de)-coding the GRF?
15:12<PeterT>or can I just ../path/to/exe
15:12<andythenorth>can't remember. That's what using a make file does to your skills
15:13<andythenorth>Think you can just path to it
15:13<frosch123>path to exe is fine, but you need to be in the correct working directory
15:13<andythenorth>think you can path to the grf as well
15:13<frosch123>the paths to the .pcx in nfo are relative to the working directory, not relative to the location of the .nfo
15:14<PeterT>I'll do ../path.exe -e ./grf
15:15<OwenS>Hmm... How would I go about defining a new spirite?
15:15<OwenS>(is there some documentation out there?)
15:15<andythenorth>frosch123: if I've understood your code correctly, the map size is no longer a factor for random prod. change cb?
15:15<andythenorth>so it doesn't matter what size map I test?
15:16<frosch123>andythenorth: for sane number of industries the mapsize has no influence, only if there are very few industries
15:16<andythenorth>that's an edge case :)
15:16<OwenS>(Or, in other words: Whats the correct way for a patch to introduce a new sprite?)
15:16<frosch123>well, pick a reasonable size such as 256x256, 64x64 will likely cause trouble with firs. but i guess you know that :)
15:17<Zuu>PeterT: Why don't you put the exe in your PATH?
15:17<frosch123>OwenS: what sprite, you mean some new gui icon?
15:17<andythenorth>frosch123: wonder what counts as 'working' for this though?
15:17<PeterT>Zuu: too many things in PATH
15:17<OwenS>frosch123: Well, I need to add a couple of icons, plus a couple which are displayed on the map (new signal type)
15:17<OwenS>(I guess I'm gonna have to learn rudimentary NFO too :P )
15:17<Zuu>Well you could always add another string to path or have something like c:\bin for random stuff.
15:18<frosch123>for icons checkout svn://
15:18<frosch123>and append them at the end of the ottd gui section
15:18<OwenS>Or rather ;-P
15:19<andythenorth>I guess if industry closure seems 'ok', it's working, and it seems 'stupid' it's not working....
15:19<PeterT><DorpsGek> CompileFarm: nightly:windows::win32 (r19495) failed. D:
15:22<PeterT>Zuu: if I add it to PATH, will it look recursivly?
15:22<PeterT>for example if I add /Coding/
15:22<PeterT>will it look in /Coding/grfcodec also?
15:22<Zuu>I don't think so, but I haven't tried.
15:23<frosch123>andythenorth: of course you need to use the random change callback for closures :)
15:23<Zuu>You have to try that in order to know if it works or not or find some documentation.
15:23<Alberth>PeterT: make 1 bin directory, and put everything there. Alternatively, use a softlink (if that works with windows)
15:24<PeterT>Good idea
15:24<andythenorth>frosch123: seems like the game would run the random change cb anyway? I just have to choose if I want to explicitly handle it?
15:25<frosch123>oh, and the diff directly affects the number of industry creations
15:29<OwenS>Gaah! I'm looking for signal icons... they're just teh diagonal graphics...
15:30<Zuu>PeterT: Another posibility that you have is to create bash aliases that include the full search path to programs if you use bash in Windows.
15:30<PeterT>I have no idea what that means
15:30<Zuu>you got linux/ubuntu right?
15:31<PeterT>Well - I have it
15:31<Zuu>The command line prompt you use there is most likely bash.
15:31<PeterT>I'm under Windows though
15:31<Zuu>If you use msys/cygwin then you use bash in there usually.
15:32<Zuu>But if you have set up PATH so it include the msys/cygwin bin folder you can just type bash inside your cmd-window and get bash in there.
15:32<Zuu>Edit your ~/.bashrc and add aliases etc.
15:32<Zuu>change to vi edit mode if you prefer that etc.
15:32<andythenorth>PeterT: you'll figure it out. I used a crazy mac->wine setup for about a year :)
15:33<Zuu>make aliases to turn on color output for cd grep etc. by default.
15:34<OwenS>If only all work was as easy as recolouring some signals :p
15:39<Alberth>Zuu: just install Linux :p
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15:40<Zuu>Then you got to fiddle with other stuff instead.
15:41<Alberth>wouldn't know, I never tried using windows for anything serious.
15:43<Zuu>I think it is good that I've been using linux seriously for about 2-3 years so I know the gnu tools not like an expert but still not too bad. Taking what's good from Linux and use it in Windows is in my option a good thing to do if you use Windows.
15:45<Alberth>yeah, but you end up with problems from both windows and unix, not the best combination.
15:46<OwenS>Hmm... I guess theres no way to tell from one of the openttd[wd].grf nfo files which sprite belongs to which number in the PCX?
15:46<Alberth>ie windows used to freak out if you gave it a 10 line input command
15:47<Alberth>and you had to convince the scripts to use c:\ stuff
15:47<Alberth>OwenS: by x/y position :)
15:47<Alberth>there is also a table somewhere
15:48<frosch123>you could also decode the build eopnttd[wd].grf with grf2html
15:49<OwenS>frosch123: Yes, but would the numbers correspond?
15:49<Alberth>src/table/sprites.h eg
15:49<frosch123>why does my irc client always switch positions of letters
15:49<frosch123>OwenS: the sprite numbers in the .pcx have no meaning at all
15:49-!-TrueBrain [~patric@] has joined #openttd
15:49<Alberth>TrueBrain !
15:49<frosch123>the only thing that matters are the pixel positions in the .nfo
15:49<OwenS>frosch123: Yeah, I know, I was just hoping they'd be somewhere (even in a comment) t oassist :P
15:50<PeterT>Hi TrueBrain
15:50<PeterT>TrueBrain: Where does DorpsGek get the live-logs from the Compile farm?
15:50<frosch123>dorpsgek and the farm are best friends
15:53<TrueBrain>thank you Alberth :) Good to be back :)
15:54<OwenS>OK, now all I need to figure out is what the " -1 * 0 05 15 99" line at the top of openttdgui.nfo does (I presume that I should be looking at action 0?)
15:55<frosch123>no, 5
15:55<OwenS>Aah, It's the 05 which is operative
15:55<DaleStan>Remember to skip the "length". (Which NFORenum will also fix for you.)
15:57<OwenS>I presume for a new signal type, "-1 * 0 05 0E (New signals) 32 X". where X is an offset I somehow determine (Presumably from the sprite table?)
15:58<Alberth>I am not sure this is the direction to go
15:58<frosch123>OwenS: new signals is not what you want
15:59<frosch123>start with the gui sprites, that part is easier
15:59<OwenS>frosch123: Heh. I'm currently trying to add sprites for code I've just written...
16:00<frosch123>then use the existing pbs graphics
16:00<frosch123>SPR_SIGNALS_BASE + offset
16:01<Alberth>TrueBrain: thank you for the OpenDune blogs, it is so nice to read about how they do things. I really enjoy them.
16:02<TrueBrain>:) I should only spend more time on OpenDUNE .. glx has more commits lately then I am :)
16:02<TrueBrain>but yes, it is very nice, how Dune2 did shit .. or more: how they did it wrong :)
16:02<+glx>but I just do "easy" things
16:03<Alberth>perhaps your commits are bigger
16:03<TrueBrain>glx: voices?
16:03<+glx>latest commits are just c-ification (without even naming the functions)
16:04<+glx>because even when the code becomes readable, I still don't get what it does :)
16:04<OwenS>I like how Kate makes the word "HACK" red :P
16:04<+glx>OwenS: like TODO
16:05<Alberth>how far are you with the c-ification?
16:05<Alberth>OwenS: or XXX (vim does)
16:05<+glx>not far enough
16:05<TrueBrain>20% done
16:05<TrueBrain>1/5th ... not bad, I say
16:05<OwenS>(Since using PBS graphics for a non PBS signal is hacky :P )
16:05<TrueBrain>38% is named
16:05<+glx>and work on music/voices introduces many new things
16:07-!-Singaporekid [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:07<+glx>my method is now "pick a function with no unresolved jumps/calls, c-ify, name if possible, loop"
16:07<TrueBrain>and somehow I am in the same loop :p Just restricted to script functions
16:07<+glx>yeah I'm in unit functions ;)
16:08<Zuu>Intresting, there is now about 40 people who has downloaded my AI library "SuperLib" without downloading CluelessPlus through bananas. As far as I know CluelessPlus is the only AI to use that library at the moment. :-p
16:08<Zuu>(total download of them is about 400 each)
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16:09<TrueBrain>Zuu: people are strange, does that make me a stranger (8)
16:10<+glx>btw for an unknown reason my brain tends to convert sarw to * instead / ;)
16:10<TrueBrain>glx: sar is just weird
16:11<Alberth>Zuu: people download everything, my example stiarcase heightmap is downloaded 24046 times already
16:11<TrueBrain>we should allow rating of things, should thin that out a bit :)
16:12<Alberth>we could have a heightmap compeition :)
16:12<TrueBrain>mine will win
16:12<Alberth>or 'heightmap of the week'
16:12<TrueBrain>this just looks AWESOME
16:13<TrueBrain>this just makes everyone horney
16:13<Zuu>Alberth: Yep, though if they would download *everything* they would get both CluelessPlus and SuperLib :-)
16:13<TrueBrain>crashes every browser
16:13<Zuu>They were released at the same time.
16:13<TrueBrain>in case the 005 didn't crash your browser
16:14<+glx>005 is loading ;)
16:14<+glx>but I have low BW
16:14<TrueBrain>it is a 17 MiB PNG ...
16:14<TrueBrain>the other is 24 MiB
16:15<OwenS>sprite = SPR_SIGNALS_BASE + (type - 1) * 16 + variant * 64 + image + condition + (type > SIGTYPE_LAST_NOPBS ? 64 : 0); <-- Oh you've gotta be kidding me
16:15<Zuu>TrueBrain: Does your server tell HTTP HEAD the correct size of it? Then one could use their custom HTTP cilent and check the size and survive. :-p
16:15<+glx>ha 005 is full world
16:15<TrueBrain>easier to see the size ;)
16:16<Zuu>Not as fun as writing your own http client :-)
16:16<TrueBrain>glx: yup :) On a pretty high resolution (not the highest, I can render bigger pictures :p)
16:16<TrueBrain>Zuu: it just amazes me no browser has protection against such big images, but just start to load it
16:16<TrueBrain>on linux, OOM comes and visit you
16:16<TrueBrain>on Windows, it swaps to dead
16:16<TrueBrain>I had the same with a 5 MiB XML file
16:17<Zuu>yep, it could be used in a quite evil way I guess.
16:17<Alberth>my ff survived :)
16:17<+glx>I have 4GB ram ;)
16:17<Alberth>me too :)
16:18<aber>me too, and i use OS X...
16:18<Zuu>But then if you want to be evil you can give wrong size information in your http header. And still many dynamic pages do provide wrong size information there so browsers can't really rely on it beeing correct.
16:18*OwenS replaces that line with a table lookup...
16:19<aber>but wait, openttd is the game with superSizeScreenshots... try one of the 400MB files :)
16:20<aber>dammit, now everyone knows i am a java developer... super_size_screenshot
16:20<TrueBrain>our condolances
16:22<PeterT>are those by chance created from the topic recently created in General Openttd?
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16:25<frosch123>damn, i clicked it :(
16:25<OwenS>Is SIGTYPE_LAST_NOPBS used for anything other than looking up the right sprite?
16:25<frosch123>though i actually read what it was :(
16:25<TrueBrain>frosch123: warned you ...
16:27<frosch123>yeah, what annoys be more is that i was not fast enough with killing it
16:27<TrueBrain>and what annoys me, is that the OOM does not kill it
16:27<TrueBrain>it kills everything, but not the process consuming 99% memory
16:28<frosch123>luckily i was fast enough when ff wanted to restore the session :p
16:29<TrueBrain>either way, I am sorry. It was kind of mean :)
16:29<PeterT><Zuu> Intresting, there is now about 40 people who has downloaded my AI library "SuperLib" without downloading CluelessPlus through bananas. As far as I know CluelessPlus is the only AI to use that library at the moment. :-p <-- The forum counters are broken, if that's what you were looking at
16:29<TrueBrain>I remember I generated the image for the first time ....
16:29<PeterT>Horribly, horribly broken
16:29<frosch123>np, i has nothing unsafed open :)
16:29<Zuu>PeterT: Nope, but at BaNaNaS.
16:30<TrueBrain>Zuu: did it possibily happened that one of the two was still on the frontpage?
16:30<fjb>Just reading back, what is so problematic about ?
16:31<Alberth>OwenS: there seem to be 3 uses:
16:31<Zuu>You can see the download count there for the current version of any content. In the manager you can see it also for old versions of your own content.
16:31<TrueBrain>fjb: either read the whole story, or stop showing off, it is no fun anymore :p
16:31<andythenorth>Alberth: that patch puts one option on the list of fixes :)
16:31<Zuu>TrueBrain: I think both were still at the front page today when I uploaded new versions, but I really didn't check.
16:31<andythenorth>I think it's an improvement on current situation but not the right fix.
16:32<andythenorth>what's a good way to design :| irc is a bit lame. normally I work with other developers on an A2 drawing board with a pencil :o
16:32<TrueBrain>Zuu: either way, people are strange ;)
16:32<TrueBrain>andythenorth: enough shared whiteboard on the internet
16:32<Zuu>Unless we got many hidden AI devs.
16:33<OwenS>Alberth: Hmm, this complicates things... I need it to behave not as PBS for cycling but as PBS for sprites
16:33<fjb>TrueBrain: I wanted to avoid reading it all. Zhe png is awsome.
16:33<TrueBrain>fjb: that, it is
16:33<Alberth>andythenorth: yeah, unfortunately, I don't understand the problem enough to know what to do
16:34<fjb>TrueBrain: But I get lost in it trying to find where I live.
16:34<andythenorth>TrueBrain crashed my browser dammit :P
16:34<Alberth>OwenS: perhaps make a new constant?
16:34<andythenorth>oh no my browser was just slow :D
16:34<andythenorth>rendered a large world map
16:35<Alberth>andythenorth: not enough network bandwidth :)
16:35-!-Zuu [~Zuu@] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:35<OwenS>Alberth: New constant isn't enough (Can't compare against), so I'm removing SIGTYPE_LAST_PBS and adding a couple of inlines
16:36*Alberth considers to writ an auto-responder for such people
16:37<andythenorth>Alberth: what's the best way to help you understand the problem?
16:38<Alberth>TrueBrain: how complicated is it to customize, so the 'diff' syntax highlighting is near the top of the drop-down?
16:38<fjb>TrueBrain: is better. It is very dark but I can clearly see where I'm living. Very interesting.
16:40<TrueBrain>Alberth: given that pastebin is the most unreadable code ever, I would say near to impossible
16:40<TrueBrain>on a positive note, someone should write a simple replacement in Django
16:40<TrueBrain>but I have 0.000 time
16:40-!-aber [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
16:41<TrueBrain>I even had Rubidium fix the CF :p
16:41-!-aber [] has joined #openttd
16:41<PeterT>Alberth: Is it that hard to open the menu and hit 'd'?
16:41<Alberth>andythenorth: answer my questions when I have them. That will have to wait a couple of weeks, I have too much things going on at the moment.
16:42<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: fix?
16:42<Alberth>PeterT: hmm, I'd never have guessed that you could use the keyboard.
16:42<@Rubidium>it ain't fixed... it didn't help
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16:43<TrueBrain>the VBox update didn't help?
16:43<Alberth>TrueBrain: or install another paste :p
16:43<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: nope, it didn't
16:43<PeterT>Alberth: Is that sarcastic?
16:43<TrueBrain>Alberth: there seems to be only one
16:44<Alberth>PeterT: to you? no, that was serious, I never use a keyboard when doing 'mousy' things.
16:44<PeterT>Alberth: Oh, because I thought I was a bit rude
16:45<Alberth>PeterT: I use a console and/or a text editor about 90% of the time, so I rarely use the mouse
16:48<PeterT>Alberth: Then you would be a good person to ask. Is there a better way of scrolling in nano?
16:49<Alberth>PeterT: I use gvim, not nano. Sorry.
16:50<PeterT>Alberth: I would use vim, but I don't know how to search for keywords
16:50<Alberth>type /
16:50<frosch123>just use sed, everything about it is described a 5 man pages or so
16:50<Alberth>that long?
16:51<+glx>I use / in less
16:51<+glx>and 'g' is nice too
16:51<Alberth>less copied it from more
16:51<andythenorth>Alberth: industry code - sure whenever you're free. I have some thoughts, but they're unfinished :)
16:51<frosch123>s/a 5 man/on 5 info/
16:51<Alberth>oh sed(5) you mean
16:52<frosch123>actualy "info sed"
16:52<Alberth>argh, stupid gnu people
16:54<frosch123>are they like gnus?
16:54<frosch123>a gnu is no pony
16:54<Alberth>more like 'everybody has X, let's do Y instead
16:56<TrueBrain>andythenorth: trac .. ieuw
16:56<frosch123>no idea, i only deal with linux and solaris, so i don't know much about "everybody"
16:56<Alberth>use a *BSD system for a while :)
16:57<fjb>Why only for a while?
16:57<TrueBrain>because long term exposure is harmful
16:57<frosch123>and wrt. user tools on solaris, i am used to prefix everything with a g, as patch, grep, diff and co are just crap on native solaris
16:57*andythenorth lost the game
16:58<frosch123>at least on the versions i have contact to, which might not be the very much newest
16:58<fjb>frosch123: Native Solaris is System V, not BSD.
16:58<Alberth>you can have that with Linux too, eg Centos :)
16:58<frosch123>i was not talking about bsd, but "everybody" :)
16:59<OwenS>frosch123: The ones on OpenSolaris all default to GNU now :-)
17:06-!-Chillosophy [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:06<OwenS>Hmm... Adding a new signal type has touched rather a bit more source than I anticipated
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17:26<PeterT>sbr makes alot of nice patches
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17:53<frosch123>who emptied my coffee mug?
17:53-!-asilv [] has joined #openttd
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17:56<+glx>the guy on your seat?
17:59<frosch123>i would prefer if they would only rearrange the matrix when the mug is empty, not after it was just refilled
18:00<Alberth>be smarter than them, take two mugs
18:00-!-Alberth [] has left #openttd []
18:03<fjb>Oh no, they got Alberth!
18:04<frosch123>yeah, better not read what he wrote :p
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18:13<OwenS>Hmm... When adding a setting, do I need to use SDT_VAR or SDV_CONDVAR?
18:13<frosch123>if you store it in the savegame you need CONDVAR, and specify the savegame version in it
18:14<OwenS>OK, and I presume I need to bump the version at the same time (Well I do anyway... things will get confused if they load to find a new signal type...)
18:17<Hirundo>If you're adding an advanced setting, yes
18:21-!-Nite_Owl [] has joined #openttd
18:22<Nite_Owl>Hello all
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18:29<frosch123>open the image in a image procesing program, and use brightness/contrast/gamma to fix it
18:30<PeterT>I don't know how to do that :/
18:35<PeterT>frosch123: What type of image proccessing program?
18:40<fjb>Any type of painting program that uses bitmaps.
18:52<OwenS>Hmm, it seems that the OpenGFX PBS signals collection is incomplete (i.e. NAND signals look like normal PBS with OpenGFX)
19:03-!-Nite_Owl [] has quit [Quit: Read You Soon]
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19:11<OwenS> <-- Diff uploaded. 40kb? Wow, thats 5 times the size of my original version
19:13<Ammler>do you have overflow protection?
19:13<OwenS>Ammler: Yes
19:13<OwenS>Defaults to 256 changes permitted
19:14<Ammler>why should opengfx be incomplete?
19:14<OwenS>Ammler: The signal graphic I use is not normally used
19:14<OwenS>I use the "PBS-exit" graphic for now
19:15<PeterT>Terkhen: where is that option in GIMP?
19:15<Terkhen>I don't know
19:16<Terkhen>I used it some months ago, I can't remember
19:16<fjb>Look for brightness. You should be able to find that on your own. (At least I hope so.)
19:19<PeterT>I found it, but I don't know how that will help me with converting White -> Black
19:19<fjb>It will make the picture darker.
19:20<fjb>I guess you don't want everything to be really black.
19:21<PeterT>yes, just the empty area
19:21<PeterT>fjb: look in the zip I posted on tt-forums
19:21<frosch123>PeterT: just do colors->curves
19:22<OwenS>TrueBrain: Considered going to StartSSL for the SSL cert? At the least both IE and Firefox ship their root, and it's free
19:22<PeterT>frosch123: looks like what I want
19:22<PeterT>frosch123: Do I need to select anything else?
19:24-!-Cybertinus [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:25<OwenS>And on the register page, "Note: before validating your account will not work. Accounts not validated within 48 hours will be dismissed." should probably be changed to "Your account will not work before it is validated. Accounts not validated within 48 hours will be removed."
19:28-!-frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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19:33<Ammler>OwenS: we use startssl, it isn't very much better..
19:33<OwenS>Ammler: They're getting there. As mentioned, Firefox and Windows now have them. Opera doesn't. Chrome I dunno
19:34-!-lewymati [~lewymati@] has quit []
19:34<Ammler>suse doesn't either..
19:36<@Rubidium>OwenS: using startssl for what?
19:36<OwenS>Rubidium: accounts.
19:36<@Rubidium>do they provide... uhm... what are they called...
19:37<@Rubidium>ah yes, wildcard ssl certificates?
19:37<OwenS>Rubidium: Yes, but only for a (relatively) low price
19:38<@Rubidium>right... 10.000 $ insurance without paying?
19:39<OwenS>Rubidium: Is that possible? ;-)
19:40<@Rubidium>OwenS: well, says it is
19:41<OwenS>Perhaps that is the case then
19:43<@Rubidium>sorry, but that makes like a million alarm bells in my brain go off at the same time
19:44-!-Hyronymus [] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115144158]]
19:44<OwenS>Rubidium: The guy who runs StartCom is pretty active on the mozilla-security-policy list, and StartCom have been WebTrust validated (i.e. they've been checked to be legit by the same people who check everyone else)
19:45<Ammler>those are simply "sponsored" by the paid certs...
19:45<OwenS>Also, how often is said insurance claimed upon? ;-)
19:45<Ammler>what needs happen to claim it?
19:46<OwenS>I believe that your SSL cert needs to leak to someone because of the CA, and then that someone has to cause you damages, and then you can claim back said damages for up to $10k
19:46<OwenS>I.E, it's useless, but everyone offers it...
19:46<@Rubidium>Ammler: security breaches
19:46<@Rubidium>but then the company is probably bankrupt
19:47<OwenS>It's there to make PHBs feel happy
19:47<Ammler>Rubidium: usually they have a "backup" insurance
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20:06<iReMixX>anyone around?
20:07<aber>maybe, just anyone?
20:08<iReMixX>someone how knows how to compile the testing release would be nice
20:08<aber>what's your problem?
20:09-!-Eddi|zuHause [] has quit []
20:09<PeterT>iReMixX: I can do that
20:09-!-Eddi|zuHause [] has joined #openttd
20:09<iReMixX>is that yer svn url?
20:10<OwenS>PeterT: Speaking of building Windows binaries, I've had a request for one ( ) but, as a non-windows user, I can't fulfil it :P
20:10<PeterT>OwenS: MinGW ok?
20:11<OwenS>PeterT: Sure. I hopefully haven't broke MSVC :P
20:11<PeterT>MSVC is slow on my machine, that's why
20:11<iReMixX>Ive had a peer through the compiling article
20:12<iReMixX>i would like to use svn, but it only says how to get the trunk release
20:12<iReMixX>and that dosent work anyway
20:13<PeterT>OwenS: what's with the huge whitespace at +STR_CONFIG_SETTING_MAX_NAND_CHANGES?
20:13<PeterT>iReMixX: svn co svn://
20:14<OwenS>PeterT: Aah woops. I put in tabs instead of spaces
20:14<PeterT>tabs aren't okay?
20:14<Yexo><iReMixX> and that dosent work anyway <- why not? trunk should work just fine
20:14<OwenS>PeterT: No in translation file
20:14<iReMixX>Wont find the URL
20:14<Yexo>then you're doing something work
20:14<OwenS>It'll build, it just is mismatched with everything else
20:14<PeterT>svn co svn:// trunk
20:14<iReMixX>i very well may be
20:14<PeterT><Yexo> then you're doing something work <-- lol
20:15<iReMixX>lemme copy you the eroor
20:15<PeterT> please
20:15<Yexo><PeterT> svn co svn:// trunk <- that works just fine here
20:15<Yexo>oh, that was PeterT , not iReMixX
20:16-!-iReMixX is now known as iAndy
20:16<iAndy>stupid nick from another netowkr
20:16<iAndy>Can't connect to host '': A connection attempt failed because
20:16<iAndy>the connected party did not properly respond after a period of time, or
20:16<iAndy>established connection failed because connected host has failed to respond.
20:17<OwenS>iAndy: That sonds like a network issue on your end
20:17<@Rubidium>you can reach it with your internet browser?
20:17<PeterT>established connection failed because connected host has failed to respond.
20:17<@Rubidium>i.e. you can reach ?
20:17<iAndy>i can indeed reach it
20:17<iAndy>but only via the interwebs
20:18<OwenS>iAndy: Try svn clone trunk then
20:18<@Rubidium>so something on your side blocks svn
20:18<Yexo>hmm, what port does svn:// use? are you behind a proxy that blocks all non-web traffic?
20:18<PeterT>iAndy: if you are really out of solutions, try "wget && unzip"
20:18<@Rubidium>OwenS: clone isn't a svn command
20:19<iAndy>Erm, right now my firewall and proxy are disabled
20:19<iAndy>so it wont be them
20:19<OwenS>Rubidium: Ugh, git on the brain :P
20:19<@Rubidium>iAndy: try svn co
20:19<@Rubidium>iAndy: "on your side" does include your ISP which might be blocking stuff
20:19<iAndy>my isp is pretty liberal
20:20<iAndy>ukfag here
20:20<iAndy>OPTIONS of '': could not connect to server (
20:20<PeterT>iAndy: did you raed what I wrote?
20:20<iAndy>just looking into it now
20:20-!-Westie [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:21<@Rubidium>iAndy: that sounds like a proxy server
20:22<iAndy>Rubidium: Tis defo not
20:22<@Rubidium>iAndy: does work?
20:22<@Rubidium>with svn co that is
20:22<iAndy>Rubidium: Nope :/
20:23<@Rubidium>odd, all work for me
20:23<@Rubidium>maybe you (accidentally) disallowed subversion to connect to the internet?
20:23<PeterT>OwenS: compiling
20:24<OwenS>PeterT: FHS will thank you :-)
20:24<iAndy>i think im just hated
20:24<iAndy>by svn
20:24<PeterT>OwenS: I'm so bored I'm actually thinking of what I'm going to write in the forum post
20:24<iAndy>its 12:30 am, ill try in the morning
20:25<OwenS>PeterT: rofl
20:25<@Rubidium>there's always mercurial or git
20:25<PeterT>OwenS: "Sorry I took so long, I'm usually on the forums 24/7"
20:25-!-bryjen [~bryjen@] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20:26<OwenS>PeterT: Wait, you feel it your job to build win32 binaries? :-P
20:26<PeterT>OwenS: No, that was a joke
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20:35<PeterT>OwenS: Done!
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20:37<PeterT>it actually finished a bit ago, but I didn't notice
20:37<OwenS>I was thinking "bloody long compile" :p
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20:43<PeterT>OwenS: what do I write in the post?
20:44<OwenS>PeterT: I dunno :p
20:44<Terkhen>good night
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20:44<OwenS>Whatever you want
20:44<OwenS>Even something as simple as "Win32 binary" :p
20:45<PeterT>No, posts must be at least 3 words long
20:45<OwenS>People are gonna see that and get confused :p
20:47<OwenS>Hmm, 7 people have downloaded the diff. Interesting
20:48<aber>or maybe one very confused person
20:48<PeterT>I lol'd at that
20:53<PeterT>"<Server> Obama Administration has constructed a private Oil Refinery and claimed it as their own!"
21:01<OwenS>OK.. I've just built a D-flip-flop in OpenTTD :P
21:06<@Rubidium>how much tiles would an Atom processor takes to make in OpenTTD?
21:07<OwenS>Rubidium: Aren't they about 2mil gates? If you manged 1 gate per tile (That is, with no tracks/wires in between them!) it probably wouldn't fit on a 4096² map :p
21:07<OwenS>Hmm... 2mil gates would fit 8 times on such a map. But you'd still need track
21:09<OwenS>Also, with the maximum signal propogation being limited to 4096 gates...
21:10<OwenS>If you were insane you could perhaps create a Z80 :p
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21:48<Yexo> a working meta-nfo language
21:48<Yexo>ok, this project is crazy :p
21:49<Yexo>it's still far from complete, but at least it has varaction2 support
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22:10<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19496 /extra/website/general/utils/ [Website] -Change: PDBs are now compressed, so ignore the compressed file
22:13<OwenS>Speaking of NFO... has highlighting for PIC assembler but not NFO :P
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23:33*PeterT just coded his first GRf
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---Logclosed Sun Mar 21 00:00:21 2010