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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-03-23

---Logopened Tue Mar 23 00:00:24 2010
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03:40<Terkhen>good morning
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03:45<andythenorth>morning Terkhen
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04:33<Yexo>good morning
04:34<TrueBrain>and a beautiful morning it is
04:34<planetmaker>good morning all :-)
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04:50<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: I certainly can't say that about yesterday's morning, but yes... today's morning seems beautiful
04:52*andythenorth fog
04:52<Terkhen>fog here, too :/
04:52<planetmaker>hazy here, but not foggy.
04:53<TrueBrain>sun!
04:53<TrueBrain>blue sky
04:53<TrueBrain>not a cloud in sight
04:53<TrueBrain>wet floor
04:53<TrueBrain>the latter strongly suggest there had to be fog here too
04:55<@Rubidium>or that someone was cleaning the floor
04:55<TrueBrain>not under the benches?
04:55<TrueBrain>highly unlikely
04:56<TrueBrain>but I have no way of disproving your claim
04:58<@Rubidium>it wasn't foggy at 07:00 here, but then... that's a dozen dozens of km from here :)
04:58<TrueBrain>I am more close to the sea :p
05:00<@Rubidium>but... I'm only like 15 km from the Dreilandersee! :)
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05:07<TrueBrain>I was talking about REAL seas
05:08<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: but... just ask planetmaker to confirm it's a real See!
05:08<planetmaker>:-P
05:08<planetmaker>zee or sea or See?
05:09<TrueBrain>like Germans have any knowledge about seas
05:09<planetmaker>or mare, Meer,... ?
05:09<TrueBrain>lake
05:09<planetmaker>pfft... !
05:11<planetmaker>the Netherlands have according to the CIA fact book 2009 451 km of coast line while Germany has 2389 km ;-)
05:11<planetmaker>Now it's your turn.
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05:11<TrueBrain>so we are much closer to the sea we have; therefor, you only have a broad knowledge about seas, while we have real knowledge about seas
05:11<TrueBrain>your turn
05:12<@Rubidium>planetmaker: did they include the parts where the Germans dug away the beach?
05:12<planetmaker>I'd bet that doesn't change much :-)
05:12*andythenorth lives on an island
05:12<planetmaker>TrueBrain, your statement doesn't derive from my citation
05:13<planetmaker>logic fail ;-)
05:13<TrueBrain>how does it not?
05:13<planetmaker>more coast line = further from the sea?
05:13*andythenorth industry window text time again
05:13<TrueBrain>owh, not that closer
05:13<TrueBrain>closer as in relationship
05:14<Yexo>andythenorth: what information do you need this time?
05:14<TrueBrain>as in: because we have little, we are more intense with it, and because you have more, you are much broader with it
05:14<@Rubidium>not to mention that the Dutch are really good in artificially reducing the coast line
05:14<andythenorth>Yexo: this is just me writing strings to show the player, it's not debug stuff :)
05:14<planetmaker>@calc 348672 / 2389
05:14<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 145.948932608
05:14<planetmaker>@calc 33893 / 451
05:14<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 75.1507760532
05:15<andythenorth>saw mill: 8t wood in = 6t lumber out. Sound ok?
05:15<planetmaker>granted, you have less sqkm land per km coast line ;-)
05:15<planetmaker>andythenorth, yep
05:15<TrueBrain>so, you have no right of speak when ti comes to seas
05:15<TrueBrain>(now that is a nice derative :p)
05:15<planetmaker>of course I do.
05:16<andythenorth>aluminium plant: 8t bauxite = 4t aluminium
05:16<TrueBrain>andythenorth: stop talking about OpenTTD stuff, it is annoying
05:16<planetmaker>andythenorth, sounds fine, too
05:16<andythenorth>sorry, I'll move my questions to #completelyofftopic :P
05:16<andythenorth>8t scrap metal = 8t aluminium
05:16<TrueBrain>good :)
05:17<planetmaker>andythenorth, 8t scrap metal = 4t aluminum 4t steel
05:17<andythenorth>not from one industry it doesn't
05:17<andythenorth>but yes
05:17<TrueBrain>why is the one machine in this whole darn building I need, offline :(
05:18<andythenorth>fertiliser plant: 8t chemicals = 6t fertiliser?
05:18<planetmaker>good that Murphy is currently at your place. That's sufficiently far away from here, TrueBrain ;-)
05:18<planetmaker>andythenorth, I'd make that 1:1
05:18<planetmaker>it's not like fertilizer needs much processing
05:18<andythenorth>fine
05:18<andythenorth>balances better with some other stuff
05:19<planetmaker>well. Of course always what fits better game play. Screw realism
05:19<andythenorth>glass works: 8t sand = 5t output
05:24<@peter1138>waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
05:24<@peter1138>monodevelop won't start :(
05:24<andythenorth>yup
05:24*andythenorth thought something like that was how most days start :)
05:25<andythenorth>one FIRS ticket left (again) :|
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05:27*andythenorth waves at DanMacK
05:30<DanMacK>Heyas
05:30<DanMacK>Intro dates... you rock dude
05:30<andythenorth>anyone got Railroad Tycoon 3 installed? I am trying to remember how the industry windows showed production ratios
05:33<Terkhen>and gravel :P
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05:34<DanMacK>heh
05:35<andythenorth>which makes more sense:
05:35<andythenorth>"8t wood = 5t lumber"
05:35<andythenorth>"1t wood = 0.625t lumber"
05:35<andythenorth>""
05:35<@peter1138>found the solution
05:35<@peter1138>run it with -nologo
05:35<@peter1138>:o
05:36<Terkhen>8t wood = ...
05:36<planetmaker>^
05:36<andythenorth>ok
05:36<planetmaker>integer ratios are nicer to remember
05:42<@Rubidium>pie! :)
05:42*andythenorth would like a pie
05:45<planetmaker>apple pie! With cinnamon.
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05:49<andythenorth>bah. game blew up
05:49<planetmaker>not good
05:58<@Rubidium>he's probaby just triggering the same thing over and over again and is reporting the bug mb-style :)
05:59<andythenorth>it's always the same thing - change strings, the game blows up
06:00<andythenorth>totally expected :)
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06:03<planetmaker>Rubidium, now, that was truely mean! ;-)
06:03<@peter1138>what, in his head?
06:04<@peter1138>heh, big gravel pit
06:04<@Rubidium>planetmaker: yes, that was a very average reply
06:04*andythenorth can't be bothered to put the production values into strings dynamically
06:05<planetmaker>btw... Yexo is the TTDP wiki missing something like an action0 airports meanwhile?
06:05<planetmaker>I recently skimmed over the changelog and found something which could mean that, but I didn't look to closely back then
06:06<planetmaker>doh... I mean NewGRF wiki :-)
06:06<planetmaker>Not to give false names :-P
06:09<@peter1138>didn't mb report all bugs in some obscure german forum about 5 years ago?
06:10<andythenorth>if you'd read that forum you would know that it was at least 7 years ago
06:11<andythenorth>and that the discussion is closed
06:11<andythenorth>he did make some nice ships though. hours of fun with those. And he taught me some stuff about hex
06:12<planetmaker>he... do you read that forum, andythenorth ?
06:13<andythenorth>I've no idea where that forum is. Which means I have no idea what 'the answers' are
06:13<andythenorth>:)
06:15<planetmaker>tehehe
06:15<@Rubidium>so you haven't seen his vapourware threads yet
06:16<@Rubidium>not to mention the stupidness of his versioning system
06:18<@Rubidium>next DB(set)XL seems to be 0.9
06:19<planetmaker>seems like
06:19<@Rubidium>and he'll probably releases it around the first beta of TTDP's 2.6 branch
06:19<planetmaker>but so was the next OpenTTD expected to be 0.8 when OpenGFX 0.2.1 was released :-P
06:20<planetmaker>ok, now I was mean ;-)
06:22<@Rubidium>planetmaker: but the next release was somewhat expected back then
06:23<planetmaker>of course :-)
06:23<planetmaker>[11:20]
06:23<planetmaker><planetmaker> ok, now I was mean ;-)
06:24*andythenorth thinks errors are going to happen if production values are not put into strings dynamically :(
06:24<@peter1138>the german forum does have a nice mouse cursor, though
06:24<@peter1138>well, the first bit, not the actual forum :s
06:25<andythenorth>grr
06:25<@peter1138>quoi?
06:25<planetmaker>why, andythenorth ?
06:26<andythenorth>blew up the game :|
06:26<andythenorth>planetmaker: I could use some help with string IDs in FIRS some time
06:26<andythenorth>not urgent, but I'm not sure if we have enough, or if they are allocated in sane ranges
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06:29<planetmaker>yep, let's schedule that for one evening; I can't right now promise a particular one, but yes :-)
06:31<andythenorth>opinions on this?
06:31<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/test_texts.png
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06:42<andythenorth>^ 'this' being the text in the industry window
06:42<andythenorth>Does it make sense?
06:43<Terkhen>I think so
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06:46<geirha>andythenorth: Will farms require farming suplies before it can produce anything then?
06:46<andythenorth>no
06:46<andythenorth>FIRS isn't too evil :)
06:47<geirha>It just increases production perhaps? or you just get cash from transporting them to a farm ...?
06:47<OwenS`Phone>Both
06:48<andythenorth>geirha: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/farm_supplies.png
06:49<geirha>Cool. I'm gonna download FIRS and give it a try when I have the time to play :)
06:49<andythenorth>there will be a 0.1 release today
06:50<OwenS`Phone>And on bananas?:)
06:50<andythenorth>OwenS`Phone: yes, I think so
06:50<andythenorth>can I be bothered to do all the industry texts before a release?
06:52<OwenS`Phone>Hopefully? :p
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06:54<OwenS`Phone>Will i get my code cleaned up tonight? Also hopefully
06:56<OwenS`Phone>Because then i can look at implementing complex but useful features :p
06:56-!-devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@202.3.77.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
06:57<OwenS`Phone>...actually, arbritrary signal lookups shouldnt be bad once ive centralised signal removal and modification
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06:58<OwenS`Phone>And it will enable building really complex stations without extra sig al tracks :)
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07:02<fjb>Are that signals working like path signals or like pre signals for the conventional signals?
07:03<andythenorth>should the mini-map list industries in alphabetical order?
07:03<OwenS`Phone>Theyre a special form of combo pre
07:03<fjb>andythenorth: Yes, but in the selected language. ;-)
07:03<OwenS`Phone>Pbs doesnt havea definable red/green state, so would be rather different
07:03<andythenorth>fjb: hmm. I didn't think of that
07:04<andythenorth>that would need to be patched for, I can't do that in newgrf in a sane way
07:04<andythenorth>seems like a Terkhen style patch? :)
07:05<fjb>OwenS`Phone: Hm, then your signals are not of great use to me. I never use the old style signals because putting a signal behind the switsh is stupid and gives many problems.
07:05<CIA-6>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r19502 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp rail_type.h):
07:05<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Codechange: During NewGRF loading, store rail type labels in temporary data and
07:05<CIA-6>OpenTTD: process after loading has finished. This avoids deactivated rail vehicles being
07:05<CIA-6>OpenTTD: reactivated if the climate property is set after the rail type property.
07:06<andythenorth>oil refinery
07:06<andythenorth>meh wrong fricking app
07:06<OwenS`Phone>Gotta run, bbl
07:07<fjb>andythenorth: I thought that it would not be possible now. It is not that important in the minimap. But the industry list would need some better sorting, or selecting only a subset of the industries.
07:08<andythenorth>there needs to be an in-game way to see what industries accept/produce a cargo
07:08<andythenorth>railroad tycoon had one, but I can't remember how it worked
07:11<fjb>Yes, that would be great.
07:13<andythenorth>filter on the industry list, similar to how vehicles filter cargo refits?
07:13<andythenorth>not the best gui in the world, but might work :|
07:14<andythenorth>'someone' was working on the industry list the other day
07:16<fjb>Yes, something like that. That would be at least better than what we have now.
07:17*andythenorth wonders about a string code for the small font
07:17<andythenorth>0E for those who were interested
07:18*andythenorth would it be helpful to see the cargo icons in the industry window?
07:20<andythenorth>poop
07:20<fjb>Hm, maybe, maybe not. They are really small.
07:20<andythenorth>small font size fucks with the line spacing on lines above
07:23<planetmaker>Small font size also might be hard to read :-)
07:23<planetmaker>Actually the screeny you showed from the industry windows looked quite fine to me...
07:23<andythenorth>it's fine, but it handles simple cases
07:24<andythenorth>I have some industries where 3 input cargos produce different output depending on combination
07:24<planetmaker>Different amount of output? Or different ratio of outputs?
07:24<@peter1138>hm
07:24<planetmaker>The latter would be... an unnecessary complication IMHO
07:26<andythenorth>different amount of output
07:26<andythenorth>i.e. steel mill etc
07:27<planetmaker>hm, ok. can you give me a pointer where to look up the ratios / conditions? May be source, may be elsewhere?
07:27<andythenorth>ratios are in individual industry templates
07:27<planetmaker>ok... steel mill of course :-)
07:27<andythenorth>what they mean depends on which production template they use
07:27<andythenorth>template A is simplest case - non-combining
07:27<planetmaker>which does steel use?
07:27<andythenorth>template B is steel mill, cement plant - combining
07:28<andythenorth>it's actually based on stupidly simple maths
07:28<andythenorth>it just adds up the ratios for cargos A, B, C *but* factoring in a grace period since last delivery for each cargo
07:29<andythenorth>so coal = 2/8, iron ore = 2/8, scrap metal = 4/8
07:29<andythenorth>it took a *long* time to make it that simple :)
07:32<planetmaker>:-)
07:33*andythenorth improves the wording a little
07:34<andythenorth>in FIRS, if there are two output cargos, it's *always* a 50:50 split.
07:34<andythenorth>Do I really need to put that into each industry window?
07:34<@Rubidium>yes, in every industry window... even those that don't produce cargo at all :)
07:35*andythenorth takes that as a 'no'
07:36<andythenorth>improved: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/test_texts_2.png
07:36<andythenorth>I could do 'efficiency' instead of the integers, e.g 75%
07:36<andythenorth>and let players do the maths...
07:37<planetmaker>that works, too. If you keep it simple like 25%, 33%, 50%, 66% and 75%
07:37<planetmaker>maybe also the 20, 40, 60, 80% work. Everything else starts to get a pain ;-)
07:39<@Rubidium>yeah, and 22/7 is such a bad approximation
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07:40*andythenorth ponders
07:41<andythenorth>'efficiency' can't be increased for every FIRS industry
07:41<andythenorth>the cargo chains get messy, and also it's better to keep some industries a bit dumb for fun gameplay
07:42<andythenorth>if a sawmill is always 75% efficient, do players start asking how they can improve that? It's just % transported all over again, but worse
07:43<@Rubidium>andythenorth: burnable waste for the power station :)
07:43<andythenorth>:)
07:43<planetmaker>having an industry always producing only 75% of the amount of incoming cargo is fine.
07:43<planetmaker>or any other amount
07:43<andythenorth>sawmills power themselves from their own waste
07:43<planetmaker>Standard power plants have 0% efficiency
07:44*andythenorth ponders
07:44<andythenorth>this '% transported' thing that's always been there
07:44<andythenorth>very few people seem to understand it
07:44<andythenorth>it doesn't affect production in FIRS anyway apart from a few limited cases
07:45<andythenorth>perhaps it could be hidden with a special flag?
07:45<planetmaker>% transported is something else.
07:45<planetmaker>that's the percentage which is delivered to stations, not?
07:45<andythenorth>do industries only provide that % to stations? So the rest is sent to /dev/null?
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07:47<@Rubidium>planetmaker: yes, that's the percentage going to stations... more or less
07:47<@Rubidium>depending on rounding and the likes
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07:52<TrueBrain>blegh, I dislike VHDL already, and I just started to work with it .. takes 50 minutes to generate ...
07:54<@peter1138>porting openttd? :D
07:55<TrueBrain>hahaha
07:55<TrueBrain>in theory ...
07:55<TrueBrain>there are only 5 buttons on this board
07:55<TrueBrain>(FPGA)
07:55<TrueBrain>I have VGA, DDR, even Network
07:55<Hirundo>andythenorth: Callbac 145 is yours
07:55<TrueBrain>but currently porting OpenDUNE :p
07:56<TrueBrain>mostly because this compiler does understand ISO C ;)
07:56<TrueBrain>does OpenTTD compile with GCC 3.4.1?
07:56<@Rubidium>yes
07:56<TrueBrain>then in theory it should be possible
07:56<TrueBrain>well, the linux kernel support microblaze, which fully runs on these FPGAs
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07:57<TrueBrain>but ... I think we can even make it more efficient :p
07:57<TrueBrain>if we synthesis seperate code for unit handlers and stuff .. lol :p peter1138, you give me crazy ideas :)
08:00<SpComb^>OpenTTD in hardware?
08:00<TrueBrain>yeah, why not :p
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08:01<@Rubidium>with NewGRFs as co-processors
08:01<TrueBrain>doesnt have co-processors
08:02<TrueBrain>just add it as pcore
08:02<TrueBrain>makes it optional ;)
08:02<Goulp>Hi men
08:02<Goulp>Rubidium: do you have information about a vehicle becoming bad like in "Disconnecting Road Vehicle" ?
08:06<planetmaker>yes. Incompatible newgrf loaded, Goulp
08:07<Goulp>planetmaker: do you think generictrams v4 is an incompatible newgrf ?
08:08<planetmaker>maybe wrt v3.
08:08<planetmaker>you started possibly with another newgrf
08:08<Goulp>no
08:08<planetmaker>got a savegame?
08:08<Goulp>the savegame i have is on flyspray, but vehicle is already bad
08:08<planetmaker>I somehow seem to have heard the same... probably there^
08:09<planetmaker>Well... if you start with a corrupted savegame...
08:09<Goulp>and my question is : how bad is the vehicle and how can a vehicle become bad ?
08:09<Goulp>no server has not been started with a corrupt savegame
08:10<@Rubidium>if we knew how the vehicle became bad we would have fixed it already
08:10<planetmaker>and which is your FS entry you talk about?
08:11<Goulp>but becoming bad is a vehicle state ?
08:11<andythenorth>hmm
08:12<andythenorth>capping *primary production* in early years of game might not be a bad idea
08:12<@Rubidium>depends on how you define state, but yes
08:12<Goulp>then game logic is able to recognize bad vehicle ?
08:12<@Rubidium>it is somewhat of a state
08:12<@Rubidium>yes it is
08:13<Goulp>then if its able to recognize them, would it be possible to "teleport" them into the first depot avaible
08:13<@Rubidium>yes, but that doesn't fix the problem
08:14<Goulp>yeap but it will avoid server stop
08:15<@peter1138>and you don't have a savegame from before?
08:15<Goulp>and sure, it will mask the problem of vehicle becoming bad
08:15<Goulp>in my savegame the viehicle is already bad
08:15<@peter1138>hence "from before"
08:16<Goulp>but when teleported into the depot, logic can "format" the vehicle to a good state, cant it ?
08:17<@Rubidium>yeah, and totally lost
08:18<@Rubidium>"how did that vehicle enter my completely dedicated ... network?"
08:18<Goulp>yeap, i dont know
08:18<Goulp>problem of vehicle becoming bad not solved, but masked, but game does not stop
08:18<@Rubidium>"oh yes that... something that rarely ever happens caused us to write code to teleport vehicles to a 'random' depot"
08:19<Goulp>as said on flyspray, i got this error twice
08:19<Goulp>with 0.7.5
08:19<Goulp>or 0.7.x, i dont remember the first time
08:20<@Rubidium>so it already happens for something like a year and now you tell us for the first time
08:20<Goulp>i talked about it here, but nobody seems to be aware of it
08:20<Goulp>and some nice guy told me it was a newgrf trouble
08:21<@Rubidium>so what's so special about your server that it happens there?
08:21<Goulp>may be it's a goulp server
08:21<@Rubidium>Goulp: 99% of the times it is NewGRF trouble because people loaded the game with different NewGRFs
08:22<Goulp>yeap ok , i agree with that newgrf expl, but not in my case
08:22<Goulp>as i didnt make stranges things
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08:23<Goulp>ok men, it's my lunch time, will be back in few minutes...
08:24*Rubidium is gone... maybe I'll see you later today, maybe not
08:24<planetmaker>bye bye Rubidium
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08:27<OwenS`Phone>Fjb: im gonna add restriction progeams to progsigs at some point too, which will be possible to attach to pbs
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08:28<OwenS`Phone>They'll affect the pathfinder rather than signal state
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08:32<OwenS`Phone>Then you'll be able to say 'if train length greater than 6, do not allow to pass'
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08:50<@peter1138>hurr, and now compiz is not working :s
08:57<SpComb^>how will you survive without
08:58<jordi>yeah, sounds terrible. I say TERRIBLE.
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09:02<geirha>I don't know what I would do without wobbly windows
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09:05<Wizzleby>wobbly windows are fun
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09:18<@Belugas>hello
09:18<andythenorth>hi
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10:27<andythenorth>possible mac maintainer :o
10:27<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=47723
10:27<andythenorth>wonder if he's any goo
10:27<andythenorth>d
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10:40<@peter1138>unliely
10:40<@peter1138>+k
10:42<andythenorth>his typing might be better than ours :P
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10:47<planetmaker>hehe. He seems as experienced as myself given his reply
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11:12<planetmaker><Pirate87> it was: Game Save Failed?Internal error: zlib returned error code <-- wouldn't it make sense to report the error code which was returned?
11:13<__ln__>no.
11:15<TrueBrain>tss, that OSX 'person' uploaded a binary with the original grf files in them
11:16<TrueBrain>I always love removing stuff from the forum :)
11:17<TrueBrain>and I really wonder why he didnt make a dmg file, but a zip ... bad OSX standard
11:19*andythenorth can't remember why FIRS has 'gravel' not 'stone'?
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>is that a difference?
11:20<+glx>size of elements ;)
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11:21<andythenorth>makes a difference if anyone wants to get picky about cement production
11:21<__ln__>andythenorth: your 'possible mac maintainer' looks pretty unskilled.
11:21<andythenorth>cement is produced from calcium carbonate. in the UK 'gravel' normally means something else
11:22<andythenorth>__ln__: meh. hey ho
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11:24<planetmaker>andythenorth, possibly as 'gravel' is already a defined cargo?
11:25<andythenorth>could be
11:25<andythenorth>I know there was a reason
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11:27<planetmaker>well... but that's the wrong reason ;-)
11:27<planetmaker>gravel is defined by FIRS according to the newgrf wiki
11:28<planetmaker>there's clay and lime stone and sand - all of those three don't quite fit.
11:28<andythenorth>think pikka has gravel in PBI, but I don't think he implemented the cargo label
11:28<planetmaker>maybe potash
11:28<andythenorth>hmmm.....no :)
11:28<planetmaker>might be. Dunno
11:29<planetmaker>replace gravel by uranium ore
11:29<andythenorth>planetmaker: got time to test a FIRS build quickly?
11:29<andythenorth>I've set texts for secondary industry, need to know if they make sense
11:29<planetmaker>I have here very close by a radioactive waste disposal... :-P they need to get rid of it. Sure,...
11:29<planetmaker>just FIRS trunk or something else?
11:29<andythenorth>you need r745
11:30<andythenorth>which is tip right now
11:30<andythenorth>list of industries that now have texts is here: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/824
11:30<planetmaker>I don't need to run it, do I? :-) That'd look bad at work :-P
11:31<planetmaker>Compiling is fine ;-)
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11:32<planetmaker>ok, built
11:32<planetmaker>Except a warning 86 on sprite 967 everything seems fine
11:32<andythenorth>yeah, that's the 5F not recognised issue
11:33<planetmaker>yep
11:33<andythenorth>when it's appropriate, have a look at the industry texts
11:33<planetmaker>what shall I look / grep for?
11:34<andythenorth>do they make sense? Try the steel mill for example....they're all in lang7F
11:34<andythenorth>STR_INFO_STEELMILL
11:35<planetmaker>They do make sense. Though one could shorten it: Production is cumulative wrt input cargos
11:35<andythenorth>I wondered about that
11:35<andythenorth>I don't want to give players too much info. They don't need it, it doesn't affect game play
11:36<planetmaker>Or one could skip the detailed math examples completely
11:37<planetmaker>"\98Cargo production:\0D 2t per 8t iron ore delivered\0D"
11:37<planetmaker>" 2t per 8t coal delivered\0D"
11:37<planetmaker>" 4t per 8t scrap metal delivered\0D"
11:37<planetmaker>"\0DProduction stacks if cargos are delivered within a month of each other."
11:37<planetmaker>The detailed explanation would be an issue for the manual.
11:38<andythenorth>Thanks
11:38<planetmaker>"Creates glass products such as bottles, jars and window panes"
11:39<planetmaker>^ Wouldn't "Produces glass products such as bottles, jars and wondow panes" sound better?
11:39<planetmaker>I'm no native speaker, but to me factories don't "create" but "produce"
11:39<andythenorth>ok I'll change those
11:40<planetmaker>cement plant goes by the same rules as steel mill
11:41<planetmaker>as does brewery(?)
11:42<planetmaker>what's the difference between STR_INFO_POWERSTATION_0 and _1 ?
11:42<planetmaker>colour only?
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>just for reference: delivering 8t coal gives you 2t steel, delivering 8t coal and 8t ore gives you 8t steel?
11:43<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: yes
11:43<andythenorth>50% efficiency with those two cargos
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>and i assume scrap metal is hard to come by?
11:44<planetmaker>not really IIRC
11:44<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: depends on how many scrap yards are on the map
11:44<andythenorth>production for scrap yards starts out quite low
11:45<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I'm |<--->| this close to releasing 0.1, you can have a test for yourself soon :)
11:45<andythenorth>I can make tweaks for 0.2
11:46<andythenorth>planetmaker: yes the power station texts are just different colour - to give a warning within 'n' months
11:46<planetmaker>nice.
11:46<andythenorth>also 'Produces glass products' is that a tautology?
11:48<andythenorth>merchandise? wares?
11:48<planetmaker>Manufactures glass products ;-)
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>bottles?
11:49<andythenorth>Manufactures is confusing because it produces Manufacturing Supplies :)
11:49<andythenorth>items?
11:49<planetmaker>:-)
11:49<planetmaker>You're the English man. I like 'items'
11:49<andythenorth>items will do
11:50<planetmaker>probably they mainly produce kitsch
11:50<@peter1138>things
11:50<andythenorth>Otherwise a word stemmed on 'product' is used 4 times in one industry window
11:50<@peter1138>items
11:50<@peter1138>ware
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>gnarf... my computer is too slow...
11:50<andythenorth>'stuff'
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>i'm compiling wine and it takes ages
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>people telling me it gets faster with ccache, but it doesn't seem to do so
11:50<@peter1138>although glassware generally refers to drinking implements
11:50<andythenorth>'stuff'
11:50<andythenorth>:)
11:51<andythenorth>"This industry produces stuff"
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds about right :)
11:51*andythenorth renames *all* FIRS cargos to 'stuff'
11:51<planetmaker>sources of shards
11:51<andythenorth>that'll make vehicle refits easier
11:51<@peter1138>randomise to item, stuff and thing
11:52<planetmaker>Don't forget *something* and *anything*
11:52<planetmaker>maybe also *nothing*
11:52<andythenorth>I suppose for gameplay reasons, we could have 'stuff' and 'black stuff' (coal, oil')
11:52*andythenorth ponders a FIRS easter eff
11:52<andythenorth>ummm
11:52<andythenorth>egg /s
11:53<Sevalecan>coal isn't black?
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>on easter you transport "red eggs", "black eggs" etc.?
11:53<planetmaker>not when ignited or burnt down
11:53<@peter1138>shiny stuff
11:53<Sevalecan>planetmaker: which, of course, is the form they usually want it delivered in
11:53<@peter1138>you have coal delivered burning?
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>Sevalecan: around here, coal is brown...
11:55<planetmaker>And Kohl is either green, yellow or purple
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: around here, the "green" Kohl is also brown :)
11:57<@peter1138>i suppose snow isn't white either
11:57<Eddi|zuHause>not currently, no :)
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11:59<planetmaker>:-)
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grünkohl <--- "Regional wird er auch Braunkohl [...] genannt."
12:00<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, but "regional" should only be in my town, otherwise "Grünkohl"
12:00<planetmaker>but... it's actually green ;-)
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: "regional" stretches out pretty far...
12:01<planetmaker>well... as I know, Braunschweig is where it's Braunkohl and elsewhere it's Grünkohl.
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i heard the expression in the eastern Harz region
12:01<planetmaker>but wiki tells otherwise. It's wrong! ;-)
12:03<planetmaker>peter1138, thx for the midi error explanation.
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, Kohl can have many more colours
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>white, for example
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12:05<Ammler>is it possible to distribute midi "patches" with the set?
12:05<planetmaker>yup. Or any, if exposed to the interior of a paint bottle
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>and "red" Kohl can even change colour depending on pH of the water :)
12:06<planetmaker>hehe :-)
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Indikator-Blaukraut.JPG&filetimestamp=20090221083421
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>(that's why it's also called "blue" Kohl in some regions)
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12:15<@Belugas>mmh... so tempting to answer... http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=47722
12:15<@Belugas>but... so useless to do, in the end...
12:15<OwenS>It was lovely to find a mouse arse sitting on the floor when I came in. Lovely
12:17<OwenS>Also: Chemistry experiments involving either Conc Acid or Ammonia suck (Both stink). Experiments involving both suck more; the ensuing cloud of dense smoke is horrendous
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12:19<OwenS>(Though it is fun to have a smoking sink)
12:20*Belugas is listening to Bloody Time Zones - Hard Castle
12:22<OwenS>Hmm... Do the errors in the NoAI debug window have to be in red? The reason I say this being that it makes them really difficult to read..
12:25<Eddi|zuHause>what exactly is "conc acid"?
12:25<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: Concentrated acid
12:25<OwenS>I'm being generic about the acid involved here, because most like to emit their gaseous form quite liberally...
12:25<Eddi|zuHause>why not say that in the first place, instead of confusing all people speaking a foreign language?
12:26<OwenS>Because I'm so used to saying conc instead of concentrated; I didn't even spot it.
12:26<Eddi|zuHause>which is 80% of people here...
12:26<OwenS>I probably confused most of the 20% with it as a first language too
12:26<Eddi|zuHause>don't english people make "." at abbreviations?
12:27<OwenS>When speaking more formally, yes
12:27<Eddi|zuHause>does the term "butter acid" mean anything to english speaking people?
12:27<OwenS>no
12:28<@Belugas>is it a derivative of lactic acid?
12:28<Eddi|zuHause>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butyric_acid <-- apparently that's the name...
12:28<DJ_Nekkid>Eddi|zuHause: it does to norwegians
12:29<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: it's the worst stinking of them all :)
12:31<OwenS>Hehe. Something to stay well away from. Like Hydrogen Sulfide :p
12:33<@Belugas>or my cat's littery
12:34<andythenorth>FIRS 0.1 will be quite incompatible with earlier nightlies. Break save games, maybe blow up ottd.
12:34<andythenorth>Should I bump the grf id?
12:35<@Belugas>i'd say so, yes
12:35<@Belugas>personnal opinion
12:35<planetmaker>andythenorth: yes, it's the safe way and will avoid trouble
12:35<andythenorth>ok
12:36<andythenorth>planetmaker: the grfid is in makefile.config, hg doesn't seem to see it
12:36<andythenorth>or maybe it does
12:36<planetmaker>Might not be used in the (p)nfo...
12:37<planetmaker>hm, it *should* work
12:38<andythenorth>does work
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13:33<planetmaker>Rubidium: TrueBrain I'd like to use -RC3 in bananas...
13:35<__ln__>http://www.news.com.au/technology/gamecrush-lets-gamers-pay-to-play-with-girls/story-e6frfro0-1225844277216
13:35<Ammler>planetmaker: check nutracks, that is rc3
13:36<planetmaker>I can't check it. Not an openttdcoop newgrf
13:37<Ammler>oh, well, you can define RC3 with custom version and use the same as in the grf in dec
13:37<planetmaker>anyway... let's try r19446 as minimum version
13:38<planetmaker>uploaded
13:38<planetmaker>r600 can now only be downloaded with RC2 ;-)
13:38<Ammler>was never meant to be public, btw....
13:40<planetmaker>Well, yes, it was ;-)
13:40<planetmaker>Testing
13:42<TrueBrain>planetmaker: use -RC2, they are identical
13:43<TrueBrain>and otherwise, indeed, custom values
13:44<OwenS>Hmm... Should I add a SIGNAL_STATE_BROKEN, for indicating broken programmable signals (I'd need graphics first, however :P )
13:47<andythenorth>FIRS....0.1 released :)
13:50<@Belugas>CONGRATULATIONS!
13:50<@Belugas>... sincerely...
13:50<planetmaker>very much indeed
13:50<andythenorth>much help given :)
13:51<andythenorth>much help needed :P
13:52<OwenS>OK... Can someone familiar with the saveload code please tell me how I'm supposed to bail out of loading a broken savegame?
13:53<OwenS>Hmm... actually... cleaning up after a bad load is gonna be quite difficult...
13:53<OwenS>Or actually not... phew
13:53<Terkhen>congratulations :)
13:53<CIA-6>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19503 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Feature: Sort industries alphabetically at the smallmap legend.
13:54<andythenorth>hey cool :)
13:55<andythenorth>saves me screwing with IDs for the same effect
13:56<@Rubidium>ofcourse it doesn't magically work for 1.0.0
13:57<Ammler>Rubidium: but as you are a wizzard...
13:58<@peter1138># a wizzard's staff has a knob on the end
13:59<OwenS>The guy on the forums complaining about his OpenTTD binary's size should see my 54MB one...
14:00<@Rubidium>OwenS: oh my 200 KiB link time warning about a single line of code
14:00<OwenS>Rubidium: Were you playing with Boost or something? :P
14:01<@Rubidium>OwenS: no, just with gcc+lto+openttd
14:01<OwenS>Heh
14:01<@Rubidium>OwenS: http://rbijker.net/openttd/log
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14:02<OwenS>Wait a minute... GOLD just decides to concatenate all of the include paths? O_O
14:03<davis>@seen Brianetta
14:03<@DorpsGek>davis: Brianetta was last seen in #openttd 4 weeks, 4 days, 19 hours, 34 minutes, and 52 seconds ago: <Brianetta> I thought it was odd that they were selling rabbits in late November 2009, until I looked more closely and saw that they were reindeer
14:04<@Rubidium>OwenS: yeah, something like that... even files that don't know about the code that's being triggered in any way
14:04*OwenS hopes libllvm-gold.so is smarter
14:07<@Rubidium>and I'm not sure whether it's gold or just LTO
14:07<OwenS>It's libgcc-gold.so
14:08<OwenS>(or whatever its called)
14:15<OwenS>Opera's graphics designers must be busy. They redesign it for every release...
14:20<davis><3 Opera
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14:22<OwenS>10.5 isn't available for Linux yet :(
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14:43*PeterT wonders if it is time to release his merged CargoDist and IS2
14:44*andythenorth hates the character limit on Bananas
14:44<Prof_Frink>CargoDIS2t?
14:44<PeterT>Perhaps
14:44*TrueBrain hates the characters which want to reach the limit on BaNaNaS :p
14:44<PeterT>I need to wait until IS2 is updated again
14:45*TrueBrain hugs andythenorth
14:45<TrueBrain>how much di you try to type?
14:45<andythenorth>847
14:45<andythenorth>I normally end up with about 1000 chars and have to edit
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19504 /trunk/src/lang/ (afrikaans.txt danish.txt):
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: afrikaans - 3 changes by Kayos
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: danish - 3 changes by silentStatic
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: greek - 4 changes by
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: lithuanian - 2 changes by
14:48<andythenorth>gree
14:48<andythenorth>grrr even
14:49*andythenorth tries telegraph-ese
14:49<andythenorth>"stop"
14:50<Sacro>Hello Prof_Frink STOP How are you STOP
14:52<andythenorth>–....–––....–––––....
14:53<andythenorth>495 chars...I win
14:53<andythenorth>hmm
14:53<andythenorth>bananas disagrees and awards me fail
14:53<andythenorth>which is more likely to be good at counting? Bananas or my text editor :P
14:53<PeterT>andythenorth: FIRS 0.1!!!!!!!!!!!
14:54<PeterT>wooooo
14:54<andythenorth>indeed
14:54<PeterT>great job
14:54<Sacro>andythenorth: that's not valid morse code
14:54<andythenorth>does bananas count linebreaks or something?
14:55<+glx>of course :)
14:55<Terkhen>omitallspaces!thetextisstillreadable
14:55<+glx>but be happy it doesn't use windows EOL ;)
14:56*andythenorth wins at bananas
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>do telegrams actually still exist?
14:57*andythenorth wonders about some kind of 'enhanced' info section for bananas.
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't seen one since the early 90's
14:58<Prof_Frink>Wotcha Sacro STOP Pretty good, went to Font last weekend STOP
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>shouldn't "," also be a "STOP"?
14:58*andythenorth has not been climbing for too long. just nfo and baby poop around here
15:00*Prof_Frink hasn't been proper climbing since the 6th
15:00<Prof_Frink>Just plastic, ice and blodders.
15:01<planetmaker>andythenorth: then head off for the next gymnasium ;-)
15:03*andythenorth is tired. getting a release done was....work :o
15:03<andythenorth>what next :D
15:04*PeterT does an action, just to compete with andythenorth
15:04<andythenorth>PeterT: does your grf work in game yet?
15:04<PeterT>haven't tested it, still
15:04<PeterT>Hold on
15:04<PeterT>I'll do it now
15:05<andythenorth>PeterT: change one thing, compile, test, rinse, repeat
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>HAHA... apparently the american army has to rework its education, because all the recruits are totally spoiled by 3d shooters, and have a totally wrong assumption on how battle works
15:06<PeterT>andythenorth: very strange, the name of the GRF in-game is "tscets"
15:06<Jolteon>what, real life isn't pick up gun, pull trigger, and kill. Eddi|zuHause? D:
15:06<Jolteon>GAMES LIE TO ME?>
15:06<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: what? You don't respawn when you're killed?
15:07<Jolteon>'He was on your side, moron!' 'Don't worry, he'll respawn any moment now'
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>also, people seem to understand technic of guns better, but lack physical skills...
15:07<Jolteon>'aaaaany moment now......'
15:07<Jolteon>'...or hum, maybe this is a no respawn world?'
15:08<PeterT>andythenorth: it probably won't appear, I have no introduction date set
15:08<PeterT>andythenorth: Also, this has encouraged me to try AI coding
15:08<andythenorth>PeterT: so set an intro date ;)
15:08<PeterT>andythenorth: Meh
15:08<PeterT>Fine :-P
15:09<PeterT>andythenorth: Action0, correct?
15:09<andythenorth>yes prop 00 for trains
15:09<andythenorth>you get handy escapes, which is nice
15:09<andythenorth> 00 \w01-01-1950 // date of introduction
15:09<andythenorth>otherwise you have to calculate days since year 0, then turn that into a word. not hard, but tedious
15:10<PeterT>where can I learn more about escapes on the wiki?
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: you can also use long format date, which is necessary for pre-1920 introduction
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>it's a different property
15:11<andythenorth>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=GRFActionsDetailed
15:11<PeterT>you mean http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Action0Trains#Long_format_introduction_date_2A_?
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>yes
15:11<andythenorth>PeterT: for RVs I always set both dates, just in case...
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>it needs a slightly different escape, too
15:11<PeterT>is that format DD-MM-YYYY?
15:12<andythenorth>PeterT: look in that page I sent you above ;)
15:12<Eoin>PeterT is GRF editing?
15:12<Eoin>hide yer grfs!
15:13<PeterT>Silence - I guess everyone is hiding their GRFs...
15:14*andythenorth is just waiting to hear your grf works in game :P
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>i'd use YYYY-MM-DD
15:15<PeterT>andythenorth: I'm encoding, but I got an error
15:15<PeterT>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Action0Trains#Long_format_introduction_date_2A_
15:15<PeterT>Oh oops
15:15<PeterT>Encoding in temporary file cets.new
15:15<PeterT>Loading SPRITES\class20.pcxpressed:100% (Transparency:100%, Redundancy:100%
15:15<PeterT>Error: Sprite y extends beyond end of PCX file.
15:15<PeterT>File has 24 lines, sprite wants 0..25
15:15<andythenorth>paste your action 1
15:16<andythenorth>and all the real sprites
15:16<PeterT>http://paste.openttd.org/225386
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>possibly mixed up X and Y values
15:17<PeterT>I just pasted them from the wiki
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>take the values from the PCX...
15:18<andythenorth>PeterT: the pcx is only 24px high. You've got a couple of y values of 26
15:19<PeterT>that must be a bug on the wiki then!
15:19<PeterT>since you have the same templates as Pikka
15:19-!-ptr [~peter@c213-89-142-224.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #openttd
15:19<andythenorth>don't get caught out by the way: y and x dimensions are not in normal order (y is first)
15:19<andythenorth>just change the 26 to 24 on the 4th bytes of sprites 4 and 8
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15:21<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: that doesn't mean the template wasn't moved around within the GRF...
15:21<PeterT>andythenorth: It's working
15:21<PeterT>Eddi|zuHause: Yeah, that's true
15:21<andythenorth>PeterT: got it in game?
15:21<PeterT>I'm copying files now
15:22<PeterT>rescanning
15:22<PeterT>now the name is "4 0101cets"
15:23*PeterT is a bit worried that Action0 is before sprites/*.pcx is loaded
15:23<PeterT>andythenorth: It "works"?
15:24<andythenorth>action 0 before real sprites is fine
15:24<PeterT>I mean, I've changed the vehicle with the ID I've set
15:24<planetmaker>[20:19] <PeterT> since you have the same templates as Pikka <-- I'm pretty sure those templates fit. At least they don't give glitches here when I copied them 1:1 a few days back
15:24<PeterT>but the sprites are the same
15:24<PeterT>it's just in a different order
15:25<PeterT>planetmaker: Maybe andythenorth changed them when he gave me his BROS sprites
15:25<planetmaker>yes, that may well be
15:25<andythenorth>those are taken from the bros guys....I don't know what they use :)
15:25<PeterT>hehe
15:25<planetmaker>All I'm saying is: the original templates work for me
15:26<andythenorth>don't obsess about it right now, you're just learning the importance of getting a good template before starting
15:26<PeterT>Did you read what I wrote about the GRF in-game?
15:26<planetmaker>I haven't tested all, but 6/8, 7/8, 8/8 and 9/8 look nice
15:26<andythenorth>I learnt about templates the hard way, even though Zephyris warned me :|
15:26<planetmaker>hehe @ andythenorth
15:26<OwenS>"Generated ProgSig-545263f-r19504.diff" :-D
15:26<planetmaker>I guess we all do at some stage
15:27<OwenS>(Just some code cleanups, mind)
15:27<PeterT>OwenS: Can you link me to your repo again?
15:27<PeterT>OwenS: and/or post the link in the first post on the forum
15:27<OwenS>http://eforge.e43.eu/p/ottd_progsigs/browse/progsig/ <-- Warnings about alpha software (That is, the repository browser, which is why I'm not linking) apply
15:29<andythenorth>PeterT: your grfid looks weird. It's bytes, but in quotes.
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15:30<OwenS>The diff is at http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=47690&p=865781#p865781
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: grf-id can be a 4-letter string ("abcd") or a 4-byte sequence (01 02 03 04), or a mixture of both
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>but not bytes in quotes :)
15:36<PeterT>oh
15:36<PeterT>right
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15:36<PeterT>how does it know when the bytes begin/end
15:36<andythenorth>it counts
15:36<andythenorth>I guess
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>everything that is not in quotes is a byte
15:37<PeterT>only four letters?
15:37<planetmaker>yes
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>exactly 4
15:37<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: lies!
15:37<PeterT>what if you want something longer?
15:37<planetmaker>4 bytes. And a byte can be a letter
15:37<@Rubidium>\d4
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: pssst! :p
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: an ID can't be longer
15:38*planetmaker wantd something like \grfid(exp(i\pi))
15:38<PeterT>I must be misunderstanding something
15:38<PeterT>What is the ID?
15:38<planetmaker>the grfID
15:38<PeterT>Right
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: the ID is a number so the game can identify two grfs as the same
15:38<PeterT>oh, yeah
15:39<PeterT>I've seen ID's that are longer than four
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>what kind of longer, and what do you think an ID is?
15:41<PeterT>The "GRF ID"
15:42<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: 'ID' can mean several things when coding nfo
15:42<PeterT>59450200 is the GRF ID I'm looking at now
15:42<PeterT>which is longer than 4
15:42<andythenorth> would always say grf ID
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>no, that's 4 bytes
15:42<andythenorth>PeterT: that is 4 bytes
15:42<andythenorth>a byte is two character
15:42<andythenorth>s
15:42<PeterT>ooooooooooooooh
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>a byte is two hex-digits
15:42*PeterT facepalms
15:42<andythenorth>that is actually a dword
15:43<andythenorth>PeterT: face palm happens a lot when working with bytecode
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>m( <-- the facepalm smilie
15:43<PeterT>m(
15:43*andythenorth ponders updating HEQS
15:44<andythenorth>or FISH
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: one release wasn't enough? :)
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: make cargo trams in HEQS!
15:44<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: no
15:44<andythenorth>I've decided cargo trams have too many issues
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: YES!
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>what kind of issues?
15:45<andythenorth>assembling trains is sucky with RVs
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: do you have graphics?
15:45<andythenorth>nope
15:45<andythenorth>nothing
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>can you make some for me? :)
15:46<planetmaker>lol :-)
15:46*andythenorth ponders an industrial narrow gauge set where the player can choose to have the same sprites as trains or trams
15:46<andythenorth>but not interchangeable :|
15:47<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: got an RL sources?
15:47<andythenorth>any /s
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>i might try to get some useful coding done, but i need the graphics
15:47*andythenorth might do cargo trams if we can patch for ships with two separate cargo compartments
15:47<andythenorth>as a trade-trade
15:47<PeterT>andythenorth: did you see my PM?
15:47<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: you might start as FISH started: nice little boxes ;-)
15:47<PeterT>about FISH AI?
15:48<andythenorth>PeterT: nope sorry
15:48<PeterT>andythenorth: IRC PM
15:48<andythenorth>ah
15:48<CIA-6>OpenTTD: smatz * r19505 /trunk/src/mixer.cpp: -Codechange: silence a gcc<4.2 warning
15:49*andythenorth ponders adding some ideas to openttd wiki.
15:49<andythenorth>forum suggestions is a bit of a graveyard
15:49<andythenorth>not ideas so much as specs for possible features. ideas are easy
15:50<andythenorth>design is not :|
15:54<planetmaker>he, indeed...
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>i'm thinking about one engine 4/8 and 4,9 or 15 wagons of 3/8: 4+4*3=16 (1 Tile), 4+9*3=31 (2 Tiles), 4+15*3=49 (3 Tiles)
15:57<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: would you be using refits on invisible wagons, or vehicles in the buy menu for each length
15:57<andythenorth>?
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>where the number of wagons is set by refit
15:58<andythenorth>what happens when one vehicle runs up against the invisible rear of another?
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>you can fit 16 vehicles of length 1/8 on one tile
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>and show only every 4th wagon
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>or so
15:58<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: post a link if you find any RL pictures of what you're thinking
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>http://home.arcor.de/vt18.16.10/900fz/900e.html#el3 <- that enough?
16:03<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: funny, I was looking at this yesterday (not ng, but similar locomotives) http://www.geoffspages.co.uk/raildiary/westoe/index.htm
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16:14<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so how do these trams fit into gameplay?
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>short distance low-space transportation?
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>(e.g. feeder services)
16:15<andythenorth>refittable to any cargo?
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16:21*frosch123 hates commit messages
16:22<PeterT>frosch123: what is wrong with them?
16:22*frosch123 hates writing commit messages
16:23<PeterT>if you really commit to i.....see what I did there?
16:24*Terkhen agrees wholeheartedly
16:25<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: http://www.carendt.us/articles/Industry/index.html
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16:25*andythenorth hadn't thought of tramways for general farm produce. sugar cane...yes. other stuff...no
16:25<TrueBrain>Terkhen / frosch123: you should start a myspace page about it
16:26<frosch123>i already have enough space here
16:27<Terkhen>I prefer traditional grumbling too
16:28*andythenorth ponders roadtypes
16:29<Yexo>planetmaker: yes, the ttdpatch wiki has no page for action0 airports yet
16:29<Yexo>but here are no defined properties either
16:30<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r19506 /trunk/src/ (road_func.h station_cmd.cpp tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp): -Fix: Tunnels, bridges and roadstops are build with only one roadtype.
16:30<planetmaker>oh right. I saw that one could now at least disable airports... so :-)
16:31<Yexo>hmm, right, there are a few properties now indeed :)
16:35<Terkhen>andythenorth: http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/screenshots/firs_gravel.png
16:36<andythenorth>Terkhen: which is the problem there? The 'cheat', or the industry placement?
16:37-!-Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
16:39<Terkhen>neither, it's funny that a line fits there :P
16:39<andythenorth>did you build that or the game?
16:39<andythenorth>(the industries)
16:39<Terkhen>generated randomly
16:39<andythenorth>meh
16:40<Terkhen>not expected?
16:40*andythenorth recommends Yexo's tile clearance code for industry placement
16:40<andythenorth>Terkhen: expected
16:40<andythenorth>common problem
16:40<andythenorth>I can prevent it, but doing it right is a lot of work. Patching trunk for it is about 7 lines IIRC
16:41<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/industrial_trams
16:43<andythenorth>Yexo's industry patch: http://devs.openttd.org/~yexo/nearby_industries.diff
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that sounds about right :)
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>i'd go for electric
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know if road vehicles can emit steam puffs
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>i suppose not
16:44<andythenorth>not right now. but they should :o
16:44<andythenorth>an old topic, discussed many times
16:44<andythenorth>probably on the german forum too 9.9
16:45<andythenorth>he
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16:46<Eddi|zuHause>i very vaguely remember such discussions, but i think it was in the english forum
16:46<andythenorth>smoke for RVs and ships comes up every now and then
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17:45<Nite_Owl>Hello all
17:45<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I found more tramway style locos
17:45<andythenorth>http://www.schoema-locos.de/narrow_01.htm
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18:02<andythenorth>http://www.ingr.co.uk/images/stein004.JPG
18:03<andythenorth>http://www.ingr.co.uk/images/stein005.JPG
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>see, there is plenty of inspiration around :)
18:08<andythenorth>16 km / h seems to be a fair top speed :|
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18:09<andythenorth>oh, this one does up to 30km/h with 600t load (on the level) http://www.taiwanrailways.com/For%20Sale%20Diemas.htm
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>depends on the year, i presume
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>the EL 3 that i posted at first makes 50km/h
18:10<andythenorth>interesting
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>built in 1951
18:10<andythenorth>but performance of electric locos seems to be pretty good even back to 1900s (from what little I know)
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>it was used for hauling big loads of coal from the open mines to the distribution facilities and power stations in the region
18:11<andythenorth>so that would be useful
18:12-!-Grelouk [~Grelouk@81.107.119-80.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte]
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>so maybe in 1910 a 16km/h version, in 1930 a 30km/h version and in 1950 a 50 km/h version
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18:14<Terkhen>good night
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18:16<Eddi|zuHause>why the hell do i have a "train_cmd.c.rej"?
18:16<PeterT>Old file from repo?
18:16<PeterT>after patching
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>--- train_cmd.c (revision 7490)
18:17<PeterT>Hmm
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>but the date is dec 2009
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18:24<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i think there's a bug in the acceleration calculation... max_te should be reduced when on slopes...
18:25<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: maybe you tried to apply a very old patch last december?
18:25<OwenS>train_cmd.c? Thats *ancient* :P
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: yeah, most likely
18:26<CIA-6>OpenTTD: smatz * r19507 /trunk/src/ (44 files in 6 dirs): -Codechange: remove semicolon after DECLARE_POSTFIX_INCREMENT and DECLARE_ENUM_AS_BIT_SET
18:26<OwenS>And wouldn't you get lots of .rej's? :P
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>max_te is the resulting force of (adhesive weight) * (friction factor)
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>but on slopes it should be (adhesive weight)*(friction factor)*(cos(angle))
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18:28<OwenS>my gitk is starting to look interesting :P
18:30*OwenS notes CmdLandscpeClear down as a place that probably needs to do a check for the presence of progsigs on a tile
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>real 111m3.542s
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>user 69m35.797s
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>one compile of wine with ccache
18:36<CIA-6>OpenTTD: smatz * r19508 /trunk/src/network/core/ (tcp_content.cpp udp.cpp): -Codechange: remove semicolon after DEFINE_UNAVAILABLE_CONTENT_RECEIVE_COMMAND and DEFINE_UNAVAILABLE_UDP_RECEIVE_COMMAND
18:36<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: Considering orudge's job... I feel sorry for him :p
18:37<Eddi|zuHause>?
18:37<CIA-6>OpenTTD: smatz * r19509 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: remove superfluous semicolons after function definitions
18:39<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: He works at CodeWeavers on CrossOver office... aka, a version of Wine
18:40<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: i presume they have faster computers
18:40<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: Probably. But WINE is still a horrid build
18:44<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: http://wongm.railgeelong.com/sec-railway
18:44<andythenorth>tramway wagon capacity seems to be 1ton-3ton
18:44<andythenorth>oops 30ton
18:45<andythenorth>16*30 would give 480t train weight, not too bad :)
18:45<andythenorth>or at the smaller end....16t :o
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18:45<andythenorth>I'd propose 'light' and 'heavy' tramway locos, with costs to match
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>30t per wagon seems a little high, if you compare it to DBSet wagons, which are (visually) way longer
18:47<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: Since when was an OpenTTD road to scale with an OpenTTD rail?
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: since i want it to be...
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: the whole dilemma starts with the GermanRV set which has cargo trams, but their capacity is way too low for their size, and they aren't available after 1950
18:48<CIA-6>OpenTTD: smatz * r19510 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (50 files): -Codechange: remove superfluous semicolons from *.sq files
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18:55<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: 30t is too high
18:55<andythenorth>but 15 might be acceptable
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>maybe even lower, like 10 or 8
18:57<Eddi|zuHause>or incease over time. the 1910 model 5t, the 1930 model 8t and the 1950 model 12t per wagon
19:00<andythenorth>I would have two models of locomotive, with matching wagons. Low cap and high. All stats evolving over time. Pretty much the same as the no. 6 and no.8 bulldozers in HEQS.
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21:08<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: just for reference: "tram station graphics ought to be improved to fit" <- is a difficult task to do right as long as road stations have no newgrf support. you can only change the generic graphics for all truck/cargo-tram stations
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---Logclosed Wed Mar 24 00:00:25 2010