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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-03-24

---Logopened Wed Mar 24 00:00:25 2010
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03:28<Terkhen>good morning
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05:07<@Rubidium>DaleStan: could/have you take(n) a look at my fixes for grfcodec (http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=865625#p865625) yet? Is there some (bug) tracker for GRFCodec/NFOrenum?
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05:43<dih>Yexo, ping ;-)
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05:44<Yexo>pong
05:44<@Rubidium>pang!
05:44<dih>\o/
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05:49<TrueBrain>now my balloon is no more :(
05:50<@Rubidium>bye bye He?
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05:50<@Rubidium>no more funny noises
05:51<TrueBrain>Rubidium: your conclusions about the email are right indeed
05:51<TrueBrain>oh well, was worth a try
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07:12<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19511 /trunk/src/console.cpp: -Codechange: use a template for IConsoleAddSorted
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07:20<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19512 /trunk/src/console.cpp: -Fix (r19511): using the 'alias' console command it's possible to create a duplicate alias name
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07:42<Noldo>Yexo: which one did it use if there were 2
07:43<Yexo>first one, why?
07:43<Yexo>the problem only existed for 10 minutes
07:43<Noldo>:)
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07:47<andythenorth> morning
07:57<fjb>Moin andythenorth
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08:03*andythenorth just woke up
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08:10<@peter1138>hmm, okay, so how do i run a process as a different user on start up? :s
08:11<@peter1138>i used su in an initscript, and it works if i start it manually, but not on bootup :s
08:11<@peter1138>runlevel is 2, symlink /etc/rc2.d/S90service -> ../init.d/service
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08:12<KenjiE20>I used to use slackware's rc.local to put "sudo -u ..." lines in
08:12<Noldo>what happens at bootup?
08:12<KenjiE20>cron's @reboot flag could be worth a go
08:14<@peter1138>i don't see messages from it at all :s
08:18<@peter1138>hmm, auth.log shows the successful su on startup :s
08:19<KenjiE20>maybe the program needs the environ vars set?
08:19<@peter1138>mmm, perhaps so
08:21<KenjiE20>I have an "ps -C <exec_name> 1> /dev/null || { <exec_cmd> & }" line in my cron, for checking if something's running and starting it up
08:22<@Rubidium>especially PATH :)
08:22<KenjiE20>a line "@reboot <exec_cmd>" should be sufficient though
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08:25<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: cargo trams are 'go'. I'll see how far I can get with them today
08:28<andythenorth>do 1/8 long articulated road vehicles now work? There used to be stern warnings about them causing fail
08:35<jordi>tada!
08:35<jordi>openttd is now a first class citizen in Debian. Hooray!
08:36<@Rubidium>yay... :)
08:37<@Rubidium>now it's Ubuntu slapping time!
08:37<@Rubidium>or more something for in 180 hours
08:37<jordi>(for those wondering, all the dependencies for free graphics are now in the "free" archive, and openttd has been moved to the main Debian repository, as it no longer depends on non-free data)
08:37<jordi>Rubidium: I had dinner with a Canonical staff member yesterday
08:37<dih>are they suggestions or dependencies?
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08:38<jordi>dih: grf are recommended, sound (which is unfortunately non-free) is suggested
08:38<@Rubidium>opengfx is in between, opensfx is a suggestion
08:38<jordi>no strong deps
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08:38*andythenorth wonders if cb36 is still unhelpful for RVs....
08:39<andythenorth>last time I tried it wasn't called on build
08:39<jordi>ie, if anyone wants to use the original data, they still can, without having to install opengfx
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08:40<@Rubidium>jordi: there was another solution, though quite a bit more elaborate
08:40<@peter1138>oh no, no canadian stuff in bananas
08:40<jordi>re canonical, I told him openttd should be a canidadate for inclusion so late given it's a 1.0 release, network game, and it's suddenly free
08:40<jordi>Rubidium: mm?
08:40*andythenorth is excited about playing a canadian game
08:40<jordi>it happened for some games before, even in Debian which has very strict freeze rules
08:41<@Rubidium>jordi: opengfx provides openttd-graphics, openttd-original-graphics provides openttd-graphics, depend on openttd-graphics which defaults to opengfx
08:41<@Rubidium>as I said, quite a bit more elaborate
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08:42<jordi>Rubidium: but then people need to create a dummy openttd-original-graphics package
08:42<jordi>using equivs or whatever
08:43<jordi>but I agree that's best, I thought of doing that too (I did that for freeciv years ago)
08:43<@Rubidium>jordi: well, I would put openttd[dw].grf and orig_*.ob? in that openttd-original-graphics package (and put that in contrib)
08:43<jordi>in non-free you mean?
08:44<jordi>except you most probably can't distribute those Microprose files via ftp.d.o?
08:44<Ammler>well, recommended means, it will be installed with openttd like require, but you can deinstall it again without dependency check.
08:44<Ammler>conflict*
08:44<jordi>what Ammler said
08:44<@Rubidium>jordi: no, it's only the wrapper files of OpenTTD + the extra graphics needed for OpenTTD needed to use the original graphics files
08:44<jordi>package managers now instlal recommends by default
08:45<jordi>Rubidium: I'll leave that up to blathijs ;)
08:45<jordi>I think it's a good idea though
08:45<@Rubidium>i.e. you still need to copy the Microprose files from
08:45<@peter1138>your cd
08:45<Noldo>:)
08:46<jordi>am I on crack, or is my tt copy on floppy?
08:46<@Rubidium>oh, I would've said Chris' development system :)
08:46<jordi>I might not be remembering correctly
08:46<@Rubidium>maybe a demo?
08:46<jordi>no I had the full thing
08:46<jordi>i guess I have a cd then
08:46<jordi>I've used it once in 10 years or so
08:47<Ammler>tto was on floppy :-)
08:47<KenjiE20>^
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08:48<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> do 1/8 long articulated road vehicles now work? There used to be stern warnings about them causing fail <- the warning applies to TTDPatch only
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08:49<planetmaker><peter1138> oh no, no canadian stuff in bananas <-- you're not really surprised, are you? :-)
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08:51<Ammler>because they use modified original sprites?
08:51<@Rubidium>"These sets are no longer restricted, therefore may not work with all game releases/versions." <- right... hardcoding it to not work in specific versions made it work?
08:52<@Rubidium>"Changes to these sets are not permitted." <- except to make them compatible (German law, right?)
08:52-!-Stuffi [~stefanraa@f048046112.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd
08:52<Ammler>well, you still can't distribute the change...
08:53<Yexo>can they even (legally) forbid changing them for personal use?
08:53<planetmaker>AFAIK no.
08:53<@Rubidium>Yexo: they can tell you not to do change it for personal use, but they can't enforce it whatsoever
08:53<Stuffi>hey
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i'm fairly there's a similar paragraph about "making compatible" in american and other law...
08:54<Stuffi>can someone help me with some problem in saveload.cpp?
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>+certain
08:54<planetmaker>Stuffi, no, unless we know the problem. Meta-questions suck
08:54<@Rubidium>nevertheless, there's nothing new in those released things... just two year old stuff that has been removed from the forum and then rereleased as stable because no bug reports have been filed...
08:55<planetmaker>hehe @ Rubidium :-) Very true
08:55<Ammler>the trainset is mainly the version from our pack
08:55<@Rubidium>so it's basically a very big "screw you, don't whine" thread
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08:58<@Rubidium>ah well, he's probably still extremely pissed that we didn't implement his requested feature straight away (after TTDP has not shown a sign of implementing it either)
08:58<planetmaker>"his feature"? Station vars? Or something else?
08:59<@Rubidium>yeah, something stationy
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09:00<Stuffi>ok.. :) i modify the map_type.h to get a bigger map size, if i want to save the scenario i got an error "saveload.cpp Line: 506 Expression length<1(<<28)" what is the meaning of this error an how can i solve this problem?
09:00<jordi>Rubidium: I also talked to blathijs about letting rc3 go in debian testing
09:00<jordi>being the last rc, I think it's ok for it to get wider testing
09:00<@Rubidium>jordi: it won't make it unless it gets pushed
09:01<@Rubidium>given that, closing the RC bug is probably fine too. Especially because of the sounds of freezing testing in May.
09:02<@Rubidium>Stuffi: now enormously big did you make the map?
09:03<@Rubidium>Stuffi: more than 8192x8192 I reckon, right?
09:03<Stuffi>yes
09:04<Stuffi>the map size is 16384 * 8192
09:04<@Rubidium>do you expect that to be anything near playable?
09:04<Stuffi>it's playable
09:04<Ammler>Stuffi: maybe you should read the big map thread...
09:04<Eddi|zuHause>just means you didn't hit the bugs yet
09:05<@Rubidium>or didn't build much infrastructure
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>or didn't use ECS :)
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>i never managed to fill a 2kx2k map...
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>i half-filled a 2kx1k map (along the long side)
09:06<Stuffi>20000 automatic generated cities and industries bigger then 100000
09:06<planetmaker>Maps become unplayable at the later stages, if they exceed 1 million tiles roughly
09:07<Stuffi>with the ecs extentions
09:07<Stuffi>we only test it for 2-3 hours
09:07<Ammler>:-o MP mode?
09:08<Stuffi>yes
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>over LAN, i presume
09:08<planetmaker>:-)
09:08<Stuffi>yes over lan
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>actually, over internet is not much more difficult, if you have enough patience for transferring the initial savegame
09:09<planetmaker>Totally unrelated, but worth a note: I consider it nice, that bananas allows to update an newgrf entry with a newgrf with another GRFID :-)
09:09<planetmaker>I thought I should mention that. And I mean no irony
09:10<Ammler>on the other side, it does make sense to use a new entry
09:10<Ammler>new file name
09:10<planetmaker>hm, do you think so?
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>no, i don't think so
09:11<Ammler>well, it depends
09:11<Yexo>say ISR 0.8 was updated to 0.9, but the new version was incompatible
09:11<Yexo>then updating the old entry with a new grf with another grfid would be nice
09:11<planetmaker>It's being used anyway as the version is in the filename
09:11<planetmaker>Yexo, yes :-) exactly.
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>the GRF-ID-Convention says the last byte should be the version number
09:11<@Rubidium>Stuffi: but to come to your problem... you're in bad luck. You need to rewrite quite a lot of the savegame format to support chunks bigger than 16 MB
09:12<Eddi|zuHause>so naturally that should be changed when releasing an incompatible version
09:12<Ammler>ah indeed
09:12<Ammler>version is in filename...
09:12<Ammler>nah, it isn't
09:12<@Rubidium>Stuffi: RIFF chunks that is
09:12<Ammler>just in the tar/directory, afaik
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09:13<Eddi|zuHause>Stuffi: so basically split up the map array into _m1, _m2, etc. and save them individually
09:13<planetmaker>Ammler, my content-download has all tars versioned.
09:13<Stuffi>ok and how i can fetch than together?
09:13<Ammler>planetmaker: do untar a grf
09:14<planetmaker>TaI_UK_Houses.0.1.tar
09:14<planetmaker>TaI_UK_Houses.0.2.tar
09:14<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: that happens already
09:14<planetmaker>Ammler, content download doesn't untar them...
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: ah, then he's basically screwed :)
09:14<Ammler>but openttd does read the content in the tar
09:14<Ammler>but nevermind, it works as I had in mind.
09:15<Ammler>it uses the filename you used on upload.
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: basically the filename is completely irrelevant
09:15<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: newgrf presets?
09:15<Ammler>or generally cfg...
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: if it uses bananas grfs, those contain the tar name
09:17<Ammler>yep, but the filename matters, afaik...
09:17<Ammler>if you have something-12x.tar/my.grf in the cfg
09:18<Ammler>it would also use soemthingelse.tar/my.grf
09:18<planetmaker>dbg: [grf] LoadNewGRFFile: Reading NewGRF-file 'swisstownnames.1.1/swisstowns.grf'
09:18<planetmaker> <-- that's what it uses. Thus the tar name is part of the path
09:19<Ammler>Hmm, I would need to test, I thought, in past, the path didn't matter...
09:19<planetmaker>well... for pre-sets it might not save it. But for savegames you also know the md5, so...
09:19<Ammler>oh, that is something else...
09:20<planetmaker>Yes... presets might indeed take the wrong version, I guess... Dunno, haven't tried it in that respect.
09:20<Ammler>this is just for "compatibilty mode" :-)
09:20<planetmaker>I still think grfs need a version byte which still allows them to be considered compatible
09:20<planetmaker>while the grfID change marks them as incompatible
09:20<planetmaker>ah, make it a version word :-)
09:21<Ammler>well, anyway it would be nice
09:21<planetmaker>it would throw more responsibility at the grf authors' feet - and add a new way to screw the system - but that is now without versions done anyway
09:22<planetmaker>(just thinking of ISR)
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09:23<Eddi|zuHause>openttd could simply try to sort the "candidate files" by date and pick the latest...
09:24<Ammler>indeed, instead of randomly
09:27*Rubidium silently (except this brief statement) awaits the properly tested patch to implement that
09:28<Ammler>:-)
09:28<Ammler>no easy way to read file date?
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09:31<planetmaker>Ammler, for i in `ls *.tar *.grf`; do touch $1; done
09:31<planetmaker>s/$1/$i/
09:31*peter1138 wonders if lenny's pulseaudio will be fixed
09:31<planetmaker>and then?
09:31<Ammler>planetmaker: something for openttd :-P
09:32<Noldo>peter1138: propably not
09:32<planetmaker>Ammler, but a common thing on, say, a newly installed system, if you copy stuff from your old partition to the new.
09:32<Yexo>planetmaker: why not simply "touch *.tar *.grf" ?
09:33<planetmaker>Yexo, why easy, if you can do it complicated? Doh... :-)
09:33<Ammler>planetmaker: of course, but at least new grfs are new
09:33<@Belugas>hello
09:33<andythenorth>are trailing vehicles in an articulated RV still limited to ID < 128?
09:34<@Rubidium>planetmaker: but don't tars have dates in them?
09:34<Ammler>it isn't perfect solution, but it is better than randomly chose the grf
09:34<@Rubidium>Ammler: yep
09:34<planetmaker>Rubidium, depends upon the tar parameters. Most probably they do unless told to set them to the tar date.
09:34<@Rubidium>oh shoot, that isn't "silently"
09:34<planetmaker>:-)
09:35<Ammler>planetmaker: again, tars don't matter
09:35<planetmaker>Ammler, then please rm -rf **/*.tar ;-)
09:35<@Rubidium>even then, what happens if someone accidentally set the time of a newgrf in the future?
09:36<planetmaker>That doesn't matter for sorting. It's just "the latest"
09:36<Ammler>Rubidium: what happens, if someone accidentially set the new grf version feature a value below last release?
09:36<@Rubidium>anyhow, you need to get the file's date in some sort of unified/default-ish format as I doubt the values returned by Windows, Linux and tars are the same
09:37<planetmaker>yeah
09:37<@Rubidium>Ammler: that's a single point of failure, with wrong timestamps there are several POFs
09:37<__ln__>http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/artikkel.php?artid=585498
09:39<@peter1138>__ln__, English only.
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09:45<__ln__>peter1138: hard for me to become an englishman at this age.
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09:49<@Belugas>better late then nevar
09:49<@Belugas>that's what my boss would say today...
09:49<@Belugas>whatever
09:50<@Rubidium>no, "the late Belugas" is not better
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09:50<@Rubidium>well, if you were "the late Belugas" ofcourse
09:50<@Belugas>;)
09:51<__ln__>peter1138: besides, surely you know that English has a lot of loan words from old norwegian.
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09:52<Eddi|zuHause><planetmaker> Ammler, but a common thing on, say, a newly installed system, if you copy stuff from your old partition to the new. <-- many ways of copying preserve the dates (cp -p)
09:53-!-heffer [~felix@mue-88-130-96-243.dsl.tropolys.de] has quit [Quit: heffer]
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>in fact, cp is the only thing i encountered that doesn't by default...
09:54<Ammler>I didn't mean using the date instead of a newgrf feature, but instead randomly choseing..
10:02<@peter1138>meh, where's the global proxy settings in win2003...
10:02<@Rubidium>just install squid in your router and do transparent proxying
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10:09<@peter1138>errr
10:09<@peter1138>hm
10:11<@peter1138>need the explicit proxy setup because there's no DNS either
10:12<@Rubidium>oh, too bad... maybe with Windows' policy editor?
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10:13<andythenorth>:o
10:13<andythenorth>eGRVTS horses have no hp set
10:13<Eddi|zuHause>hehe :)
10:15<andythenorth>how many hp should they have?
10:15<@Rubidium>less than 1 per horse
10:16<fjb>Round it to 0.
10:18<@Rubidium>andythenorth: as always http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hp#Horsepower_from_a_horse (lovely and possibly incorrect)
10:18*andythenorth wonders if industrial tramways need different graphics
10:18<@Rubidium>so, assuming you want them to haul for long stretches, less than 1 hp per horse
10:18<andythenorth>:)
10:21<andythenorth>tramway wagons are going to be *very* small at TTD scale :o
10:23<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: "Cargo Trams" or "Industrial Trams" ?
10:23<andythenorth>I favour "Industrial Trams"
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that sounds good
10:24<andythenorth>Adding them to HEQS makes sense to me. I have enough sets to look after without a new one :)
10:31<planetmaker>hehe :-)
10:34<andythenorth>Industrial Trams currently look strangely like bulldozers :o
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>:)
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10:38<__ln__>http://blogs.msdn.com/vcblog/archive/2010/03/22/vc-developer-survey.aspx
10:40<andythenorth>hmm
10:41<andythenorth>Yexo...this nfo abstraction, not going to appear this side of metaphorical christmas?
10:41<andythenorth>I ask as I am about to convert HEQS to use cpp
10:41<Yexo>not sure when I'll get it working
10:41<Yexo>but don't count on anything in the next few weeks
10:41<Yexo>it's a lot of work
10:42<andythenorth>:)
10:42<andythenorth>I am happy to use the cpp route, just checking something better is not around the corner
10:42<Yexo>no, not yet
10:42<@Rubidium>but c++0xff isn't there yet either
10:43<@Rubidium>and that's in the pipeline for a very long time already
10:43<__ln__>it's supposed to be C++ 11
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10:52<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: when should electric industrial trams appear? About 1890?
10:52<Eddi|zuHause>definitely not earlier
10:55<andythenorth>first AEG electric loco was 1889
10:55<andythenorth>Siemens SSW founded 1903 for electric loco production
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11:02<Terkhen>hello
11:02<andythenorth>hi Terkhen
11:06*andythenorth grits teeth
11:06<andythenorth>need to reduce HEQS compile errors (so I can see if there are new ones!)
11:14<Ammler>hehe :-P
11:18*andythenorth reduces errors by suppressing them. always the best way :P
11:18<@peter1138>use -1 as your sprite num
11:18<@peter1138>saves a bit of hassle
11:19<andythenorth>peter1138: hmm. I've been slowly renumbering 2000 HEQS sprites to -1 when I make updates :P
11:21*andythenorth has resisted learning regex in 10 years of coding
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11:37<andythenorth>does the game have code to deactivate a vehicle if none of its cargos are avaialble?
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11:54<Eddi|zuHause>that'd make it difficult to make a vehicle carrying no cargo
11:55<andythenorth>I have a couple of vehicles that don't appear in the buy menu if their cargos aren't defined.
11:55<andythenorth>That's actually a preferred behaviour
11:56<andythenorth>I only ask because I just found my action 7 to do the same thing has been broken for months and I hadn't noticed
11:56<andythenorth>Also...Eddi|zuHause http://tt-foundry.com/misc/industrial_tram_test.png
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>great
12:08<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/industrial_tram_test_2.png
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12:09<Eddi|zuHause>those wagons are 5/8?
12:10<Eddi|zuHause>it should really not exceed 3 tiles...
12:11<andythenorth>those wagons are 7/7
12:11<andythenorth>7/8 /s
12:11<andythenorth>I'm going to test now with 1/8
12:11<andythenorth>the sprites need drawn...those may look somewhat like a bulldozer ;)
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>that's a minor issue :)
12:14<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/industrial_tram_test_3.png
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>good, now hiding all but 4 wagons :)
12:16<andythenorth>meh
12:16*andythenorth ponders either a long set of range checks or some kind of /4 advanced varact2
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>with the range checks you might be more flexible
12:18-!-Stuffi [~stefanraa@f048046112.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>especially because you need two sets of hiding schemes
12:18<andythenorth>range checks win
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>in the 2 tile version you need fewer hidden vehicles
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12:42<OwenS>Who is update-apt-xapi and why is he stealing my CPU?
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12:44<@Rubidium>something Ubuntu only it seems
12:44<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: industrial trams refit all cargos?
12:44<andythenorth>or exclude passengers?
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>all should be fine
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>especially mining lines often also transported workers
12:46<andythenorth>that's what I figure
12:46<andythenorth>so I have to draw some passenger wagons as well :|
12:47<OwenS>andythenorth: Do you ever play OpenTTD or just make GRFs? :p
12:47<andythenorth>mostly just make grfs
12:47<andythenorth>does anyone here actually play the game?
12:47<OwenS>Me. When not doing patch maintainance :p
12:47<andythenorth>I prefer the meta-game of making the game :)
12:48<andythenorth>producing newgrfs is like a puzzle
12:49<planetmaker><andythenorth> does anyone here actually play the game? <-- we have #openttdcoop for that :-P
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>i would like to play the game, but it always stretches out over several months or even a year. and for that to work i can't use major patches, and there's always one of those around that i really need...
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>last time it was YAPP, now it's cargodist...
12:51<OwenS>planetmaker: Thats true. Dropping into a #coop game requires less effort than creating ones own
12:52<andythenorth>does cb36 have to be enabled explicitly for RVs?
12:52<planetmaker>hehe @ Eddi|zuHause - also one of the reasons I usually play on our PublicServer. Games are short but still get finished due to the high amount of people working there.
12:52<planetmaker>OwenS, exactly :-)
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12:54<OwenS>Hmm... Is there no simple way to iterate through the bits of track on a tile? :s
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>you can iterate through all trackbits and check their presence
12:56<OwenS>Yeah, I'm just looking for a way to iterate through them without doing it the hard way (I.e. bit math :P )
12:56<@Rubidium>there's a FOR_ALL_BITS or so
12:56<@Rubidium>and a patch on FS
12:57*OwenS checks core/bitmath_func
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12:57<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: tram wagons will be effectively 'free'
12:57<andythenorth>due to way refit works, cost 16 tram wagons == cost 4 tram wagons
12:58<OwenS>"#define FIND_FIRST_BIT(x) _ffb_64[(x)]"? Cheats! :p
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: lookup table?
12:59<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: Yes. But only a 6-bit one :p
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: balance between complexity and size?
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: that's the oldest trick in the book...
12:59<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: An 8-bit one would only be 256bytes...
13:00<@Rubidium>with a whopping 192 unused bytes
13:00<OwenS>...or, you could use the x86 ffs instruction :p
13:00<OwenS>(on x86)
13:00<OwenS>Or clz on ARM, or clz on MIPS, or indeed the same on may processors
13:01-!-Guest60 [kvirc@150.214.220.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:01<OwenS>(BTW, GCC optimizes the ffs function to those)
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13:12*andythenorth loathes the vehicle props 16 1D and 1E :P
13:12<fjb><andythenorth> does anyone here actually play the game? <- Yes.
13:13<OwenS>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=47652 <- Is it just me who thinks a person using OpenGFX posting in the TTDPatch forum is probably confused?
13:13<andythenorth>refit masks are really annoying
13:13<@peter1138>isn't there a TTDPatch compatible version of OpenGFX?
13:13<OwenS>peter1138: And the probability of someone using it. Particularly someone with 1 post
13:14*andythenorth wonders about some kind of web service for generating refit masks
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you can't do that by hand?
13:14<andythenorth>hate it hate it hate it
13:14<@peter1138>refit masks? easy
13:15<andythenorth>meh
13:15<@peter1138>just a load of 1s and 0s
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13:15<Eddi|zuHause>you write the bits down in the order of the cargo translation table
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>then you convert 4 bits to nibbles
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>and then shuffle them around
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13:17<Eddi|zuHause>the cargo translation table is "ultra-little-endian" so if you have the bits 1000, that translates to 1, 0001 translates to 8. then you have to flip the nibbles in the byte, to get little endian
13:17<OwenS>wait what?!
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: possibly you want to implement an escape sequence
13:17<OwenS>"ultra little endian"? O_o
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: i just made that word up :)
13:18<OwenS>I get the idea and want to know whos idea it was :p
13:18<andythenorth>it's not just the bit shuffling, it's the interaction between 16 and 1D/1E
13:18<andythenorth>brain fuck
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know what those do
13:20<andythenorth>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Action0Trains#Cargo_classes_28_29_
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: basically, "little endian" is on byte level, and "ultra little endian" is on bit level
13:20<andythenorth>train 28, 29 same as rv 1D, 1E
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know if there's an established word for that
13:21<OwenS>Sorry, but I thought the guys who referred to the MSB as bit 0 were mad...
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13:23<jordi>:q
13:23<jordi>yay
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: the cargo translation table is an array. and the refit mask's LSB (bit 0) refers to the entry 0 in the array
13:25<OwenS>BTW, inside a command, do I need to check if the player owns the specified tile or has that already been done?
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>yes, no.
13:26<OwenS>OK. *adds to head of todo list*
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>some commands can be done on other people's tiles (like building a road on someone else's rail)
13:26<OwenS>You know... that makes sense :p
13:26<OwenS>It was just that the commands I'd been looking at didn't seem to do it
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>resulting is that tiles may have multiple owners
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>i believe up to 3, currently
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>one owns the road, one owns the tram, one owns the roadstop
13:27<OwenS>..or one owns road, one tram, one rail
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>no, i think that one has some evil special cases...
13:28<OwenS>Aah
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>you can't have a tram without road on a level crossing
13:29<@Rubidium>maybe it'd be (technically) possible with the new railtype stuff
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>that'd be nice
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>suggestion for programmable signals: force the signal red when a vehicle occupies the road crossing
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13:32<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, think about realism! ;-)
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: that is realistic
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>there are signals that turn red when the crossing can't be activated
13:33<planetmaker>But how does a crossing know a vehicle is on it. Or how would it work on a busy one?
13:34<planetmaker>I'm curious though: do you have an example of such, Eddi|zuHause ?
13:35-!-lewymati [~lewymati@89.230.159.206] has quit []
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.stellwerke.de/signal/deutsch/bue.html
13:37<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: Hmm... That one would be quite complex
13:37<planetmaker>thanks :-) And I thought I knew all those things on that page meanwhile
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: the most evil thing is probably getting a train to stop after it already reserved a path
13:38<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: Progsigs are block signals
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: that makes them almost useless
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>you should seriously consider extending them to path signals
13:39<OwenS>When I add routing restrictions, path signals will get those too. But you can't make a PBS signal red because they don't work like that
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13:40<OwenS>Adding the ability to look at an arbritrary tile requires me adding an out-of-map-array table so the object can find all signals which depend upon it. I suppose it's possible, with a little redesign of the way I was gonna store signal dependencies
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: with a path signal, you have one persistent bit free for the reverse signal, you can use that to force a signal red, and check that when trying to reserve a path through the signal
13:41<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: Hmm, that is a possibility. They may also have the normal signal state bit (I don't know), it's just that the normal signal behaviour doesn't apply to them
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: the normal state bit is for display purposes mostly
13:42<OwenS>Aah, I presume with PBS it indicates that a train has reserved a route through the signal
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>no, the reservation bit is somewhere else
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>when a train reserves a path through a signal that concerns him, the reservation bit is set, and the signal state bit is set to green
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>when a train reserves a path through another signal (i.e. a backwards one), the reservation bit is set, but the state bit is set to red
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>(or ignored)
13:44<OwenS>Yeah, I was refering to the displaying there
13:44<OwenS>Using the direction bit is interesting - though it will probably cause lots of bits of code to assert
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>i was once trying to use that as yellow state, but that didn't go anywhere...
13:46<OwenS>I should perhaps change from SIGTYPE_PROGSIG t
13:46<OwenS>(thanks cat...)
13:47<OwenS>to using an extra bit to allow programming any signal
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>have you ever had a look at the "signalex" patch?
13:48<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: Yes, but it seems dormant
13:50<OwenS>The other thing is that making a patch which depends upon another starts making logistics a bit more complex
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13:53<OwenS>The other thing is it assumes that all objects are simply serializable. ProgSigs programs are not
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>but the SignalEx patch went dormant because there's no feature using it
13:53<OwenS>And its maintainer has disappeared
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>because it isn't going to trunk without a feature
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13:55<OwenS>Also, SignalEx leaks SignalEx's
13:55<OwenS>it seems
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>that i don't know...
13:56<OwenS>It only removes the structure when you remove a signal. Not when you remove a track, or blow up a tile
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>but that's the same problem in your patch, finding all instances where signals are removed
13:57<OwenS>True. I *think* it should be just CmdClearArea, CmdRemoveSignalHelper and CmdRemoveTrackHelper. Hopefully. And at least if I have missed anywhere, I check when saving so I know I have
14:01<OwenS>Also, ProgSigs centralizes much of the infrastructure which would be needed by users of the SignalEx patch anyway
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14:04<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: some of these trams are seriously powerful :o
14:04-!-frosch [~frosch@frnk-590f7f42.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: what i mean, if you don't use the patch directly, you can use it as inspiration on how to get more information into the tile...
14:06<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: It is actually a patch I am referencing :-)
14:07<frosch>who cut my dsl connection for 5 seconds?
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>who cut your numbers? :p
14:08<andythenorth>who was here asking about 'Disconnecting road vehicles'?
14:08<andythenorth>think he might have the 'allow multiple newgrf engines' option turned off
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it was a newgrf conflict afair
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>those tend to be less when the setting is on :)
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14:11<frosch>no need to highlight me :p
14:13<SpComb>ich essen eine frosch mit broken deutsch
14:13<@Rubidium>jah, super :)
14:14*andythenorth is tempted to make industrial trams a bit....good
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14:14*planetmaker somehow doubts that frosch is a "she" ;-)
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>fröschin :)
14:15<planetmaker>lool :-)
14:15<frosch>who knows?
14:15<planetmaker>Probably you ;-)
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14:17<andythenorth>wikipedia has gone away :o
14:17<planetmaker>if not: try to make up with one of each gender. Most probably you're the opposite of that with whom you'll have fun
14:17<frosch>Ammler: i guess the canadian stuff would rather replace all graphics instead of adding ogfx support
14:18<@Rubidium>frosch: lies... it would rather not add support whatsoever
14:20-!-DJ_Nekkid [~thomas@static128-249.adsl.no] has joined #openttd
14:21<andythenorth>grrr
14:21<andythenorth>set balancing is tricky
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14:31<SpComb>andythenorth: just give all the vehicles the same stats
14:31<andythenorth>up thanks
14:31<andythenorth>ummm
14:37<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: end of the page - proposed electric trams http://tt-foundry.com/misc/industrial_trams
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>520t?
14:40<andythenorth>:D
14:40<andythenorth>those big electric trams are quite impressive
14:40<andythenorth>http://wongm.railgeelong.com/sec-railway
14:41<andythenorth>also, I made a maths error
14:41<andythenorth>what's the facepalm emoticon?
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>m( <--
14:42-!-Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
14:42<andythenorth>m(
14:43<andythenorth>416t for the largest
14:43<andythenorth>at 1020hp it should do well on hills
14:43<PeterT>the "m" part is the hand?
14:43<frosch>what capacity has the stuff in fish?
14:43<andythenorth>frosch: 35t-1080t currently
14:43<andythenorth>I could knock down the hp on these trams....but the rest of HEQS uses realistic hp
14:44<frosch>well, 16 cars is quite a lot
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19513 /trunk/src/lang/japanese.txt:
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: japanese - 3 changes by nex259
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: shouldn't it be 15 cars (+1 engine)?
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>maybe the large version should use 4/8 wagons and 1 to 4 tiles refits
14:55<DJ_Nekkid>yea, thats a neat trick :P
14:58<Eoin>i wish UK Bus Set had taken off
14:59*Alberth prefers buses to stay on the ground
15:01<Terkhen>andythenorth: the low tractive effort of the Fourtrac is intended? I think it is the only remaining vehicle in HEQS that slows down to 1 km / h in slopes when fully loaded (needs 4 sloped tiles, though)
15:01-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@94-224-31-113.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO]
15:03<andythenorth>Eoin: uk sets are generally doomed :P
15:03<Eoin>alas
15:04-!-Pe1erT [~Peter@c-24-34-93-147.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>what happened to pikkas "hovs" set?
15:06<andythenorth>Terkhen: I'll have a look at the fourtrac
15:06<Terkhen>okay
15:07<andythenorth>Terkhen: is that with the default acceleration settings?
15:08<@Belugas>DAMNED!
15:08<@Belugas>same code, two devices
15:08<@Belugas>different behaviours
15:09<@Belugas>good job, VERY GOOD JOB, Verifone :P
15:09<Terkhen>andythenorth: yes, 7% slope steepness
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15:22<andythenorth>Terkhen: fixed, I just increased the weight by a couple of tons
15:22<Terkhen>great :)
15:23<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: yes it should be 15 cars for the smallest tram
15:23<andythenorth>not sure on the big one
15:23<andythenorth>I wonder if the big trams should be implemented as trains....but then again it's realistic to have them as trams
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if it's more than 1+15, then you can't reduce it to 1 tile
15:24-!-Pe1erT [~Peter@c-24-34-93-147.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
15:24<andythenorth>1 tile helps with the station queueing issues
15:24<andythenorth>?
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>yes, for example...
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15:27<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I'm not sure for the big trams that they can be kept to 1 tile :)
15:30<andythenorth>what should the coeffecient of T/E be for trams?
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>steel on steel is 0.3 or something
15:32<andythenorth>that's the default for RVs apparently
15:32<andythenorth>Terkhen: ^
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>gummy on asphalt is higher
15:32-!-Phoenix_the_II [~ralph@f234099.upc-f.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>hm... my table says steel on steel (dry) is 0.15, tyre on asphalt (dry) is 0.8
15:34<OwenS>openttd: /home/oshepherd/Projects/OpenTTD/logic/src/core/smallvec_type.hpp:159: void SmallVector<T, S>::Erase(T*) [with T = SignalInstruction*, unsigned int S = 4u]: Assertion `item >= this->Begin() && item < this->End()' failed. <-- Ooh, interesting
15:35<Terkhen>IIRC 0'5 for trams, someone said that it should be greater than 0'3 (trains)
15:36-!-ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>probably depends on the type of steel, and whether you can use sand
15:36<andythenorth>gah
15:37<andythenorth>vehicles refittable to passengers can't be routed to truck stations
15:37<planetmaker>hm...
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>hm... then no passengers i guess...
15:38-!-Starn [~Starn@adsl-67-67-8-79.dsl.okcyok.swbell.net] has joined #openttd
15:40<andythenorth>hmm
15:41*planetmaker sees a feature request surfacing
15:41<andythenorth>nope
15:41<andythenorth>just can't figure out why my cargo tram can only route to passenger stations
15:41<andythenorth>frick
15:41<planetmaker>lol
15:42-!-Starn-TS3 [~ANONYMOUS@adsl-67-67-8-79.dsl.okcyok.swbell.net] has joined #openttd
15:43<Starn-TS3>hello? tis addon work for teamspeak 3? i thinkin it did yay! i can play games and bug you guys :P
15:43<Eoin>lol
15:43<OwenS>:S
15:43<Eoin>irc addon?!
15:43<Eoin>i need that
15:43<Eoin>cause they i can get irc in WoW
15:43<Starn>lol i found it on TS3 forums :D
15:44<OwenS>Why isn't a SignalSpecial in the signal's instruction list?!
15:44<OwenS>Double delete... Thats why...
15:45<OwenS>This tells me that nobody tested the release I did last night. Or if they did, they didn't tell me that it crashed. And that I really didn't test said release well enough
15:45<@peter1138>welcome to testing
15:46<@peter1138>you'll rarely get bug reports
15:46<planetmaker>testing is a bitch
15:46<OwenS>Which is really annoying. Surely it's not difficult to say "Deleting a signal crashes the game?!
15:46<Starn-TS3>mIRC has clouded my memory on IRC... is it /msg nickserv [command]?
15:47-!-ctibor [~quassel@77.48.228.43] has joined #openttd
15:47<planetmaker>OwenS, well... that's life, I guess... what release, btw? ;-)
15:47<OwenS>planetmaker: The one I made yesterday has the bug
15:47<planetmaker>well... yes... of what?
15:47<@Rubidium>OwenS: they'll only tell you about it a) once it hit trunk, b) once it's in a major stable release or c) just before the NEXT major stable releases
15:47<OwenS>planetmaker: ProgSigs
15:47<planetmaker>ah
15:47<OwenS>Rubidium: *sigh*
15:48-!-Starn-TS3 [~ANONYMOUS@adsl-67-67-8-79.dsl.okcyok.swbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:48<@Rubidium>also if it desyncs, it's more likely that a review from the developers finds it than the people that supposedly "tested" it
15:48<OwenS>Rubidium: Thats why were going to run it on #openttdcoop.dev with the next release ;-)
15:49<planetmaker>OwenS, 4 downloads is not that big of a testing crew... especially if one assumes that not every download ends up in a compile.
15:50<Starn>o.o
15:50<planetmaker>I'm certainly not the only person who more often looks at a patch than compiles it.
15:50<OwenS>planetmaker: True. I hadn't checked the downloads. Now I'm just depressed that nobody has played it :-( :P
15:50*planetmaker hugs OwenS
15:50<@Rubidium>OwenS: then you shouldn't say it's not finished/useful yet :)
15:50<Starn>if you guys need more testers i am willing... i test for games by EA games and Blizzard and Atari and many more.. so i know how to test things :P
15:51<@Rubidium>Starn: and testing for them includes compiling the game yourself?
15:51<planetmaker>:-)
15:52<andythenorth>tram now routes correctly :)
15:53*andythenorth needs to do something about either weight or T/E :|
15:53<andythenorth>or hp
15:54-!-Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d198-53-213-246.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd
15:54<andythenorth>80hp, 75t, steel on steel
15:54<andythenorth>not the world's best hill-climber :o
15:55<Starn>Rubidium no.. but i've compiled my own games before... with more crashes that working...
15:57<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: how good should these trams be at climbing hills?
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: medium
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>they should be able to climb a bridge ramp
15:58<andythenorth>hmm good test
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>but they should not be used in mountaneous territory
16:00<andythenorth>I suppose cheating the T/E is ok
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16:04<OwenS>hmm
16:04<OwenS>Doxygen doesn't list _current_company's definition file
16:05<@Rubidium>huh?
16:05<@Rubidium>doubtful
16:05-!-DJ_Nekkid [~thomas@static128-249.adsl.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:06<__ln__>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH0aEp1oDOI (photoshop)
16:06<OwenS>Well its certainly not in the globals list for me
16:06<@Rubidium>all files except the squirrel files cause doxygen to generate html
16:06<@Rubidium>OwenS: oh, that's probably because the variable isn't doxygened
16:07<OwenS>You should turn on the document undocumented members option :p
16:07<+glx>maybe it's still in variables.h ;)
16:07<@Rubidium>i.e. it doesn't have a /** .. */-ish comment
16:07<@Rubidium>glx: no, it's in company_func.h
16:07<+glx>oh variables.h is almost empty now
16:08<OwenS>Right. Because it's logical to find variables among functions :-P
16:08<+glx>it used to be way bigger
16:08<@Rubidium>OwenS: feel free to write patches that reduce doxygen's stderr output :)
16:08<OwenS>Rubidium: Well, at least ProgSigs shouldn't increase it ;-)
16:09-!-fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dba9f22.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:10<OwenS>Actually, I think I may have documented a few undocs while I was documenting some of my own :-)
16:10-!-ss23 [~ss23@121-74-55-138.telstraclear.net] has quit [Quit: leaving]
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: as long as you don't do "//<<< insert doc here" comments...
16:11<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: I don't :P
16:12<@Rubidium>the error output of doxygen is 'only' 1.4 MiB, so lots of chances you can find something to document
16:12<@Rubidium>hmm, again MSVC64 warnings :(
16:13<Starn>hey what exactly is needed to even compile openttd? and reason i am asking is i am thinking about getting back into coding. also wanting to compile Xchat.
16:13<+glx>let me check MSVC64
16:14<@Rubidium>Starn: http://wiki.openttd.org/Coding_Tools
16:14<OwenS>Good news: Demolition, track removal and signal removal all correctly free the signal programs
16:14<OwenS>Also, they dont' crash :p
16:15<@Rubidium>maybe people liked that "feature"
16:15<planetmaker>Feature: Don't crash - I like that
16:17<Starn>would newest Visual studio 2010 work?
16:17<Starn>or am i gonna have to dig around for my older Cd's?
16:17<+glx>try :)
16:18<planetmaker>Did you read the page you were linked to?
16:18<Starn>part of it
16:18<planetmaker>...
16:18<Starn>multitasking and still trying to sober up.
16:19<Starn>it does not mention visual c++ 2010 :(
16:19<+glx>it's not out yet anyway
16:19<Starn>guess i find my Cd's for visual c++ 2005 or 2008
16:19<Starn>i have it :D
16:20-!-Nite_Owl [~Nite_Owl@c-98-254-113-47.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
16:20<Starn>i beta for M$ sometimes.
16:20<Nite_Owl>Hello all
16:20<planetmaker>hello Nite_Owl
16:20<Nite_Owl>Hello planetmaker
16:20<Starn>woo they have eclipes listed!
16:20<+glx>Rubidium: only 2 warnings indeed ;)
16:21<@Rubidium>pushing size_t down into blob is probably not nice, right?
16:22<@Rubidium>Starn: MSVC2010 isn't officially supported by OpenTTD
16:22<OwenS>Starn: 2008 express is a free download though
16:23<Starn>i know i have 2008... and 2005... on some lovely CD's provided by some lovely people.
16:23<Starn>but i am on windows 7 pro 64bit. and i am trying to get more native to my system
16:26<Starn>alright i am using my CD's for 2008.. i have 2010 on here to i might see if it works with it.
16:27<+glx>I'd say r19467
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16:43<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r19514 /trunk/src/ (console.cpp console_cmds.cpp console_internal.h): -Codechange: Allow console hooks to deny existance of commands.
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16:47<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r19515 /trunk/src/ (console_cmds.cpp settings_type.h table/settings.h):
16:47<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Add: Client setting 'gui.newgrf_developer_tools' to enable otherwise hidden features.
16:47<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Add: Console command 'reload_newgrfs'; only available when newgrf developer tools are enabled.
16:47<PeterT>frosch: ^ that's an interesting one
16:50<planetmaker>:-O
16:51<andythenorth>frosch: ^ nice commits :)
16:51<frosch>one patch less for you to apply :p
16:52-!-Tennel_ [~Tennel@port-ip-213-211-212-153.reverse.mdcc-fun.de] has joined #openttd
16:52<planetmaker>:-)
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16:53<planetmaker>very nice, yes
16:53<planetmaker>frosch, does it apply to base sets, too?
16:53<frosch>graphics sets most likely yes, sounds set no idea
16:54<planetmaker>cool :-)
16:54<frosch>i guess: try it
16:54<planetmaker>:-) I will.
16:54-!-Tennel [~Tennel@88.150.10.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:54<frosch>but it does not reread .obg or tars
16:55<planetmaker>only the content of opened and used files makes sense. so that's what it does?
16:56<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: the small tram carries 60t. Top speed 15mph, climbs a bridge slope at 3-4mph, a bigger slope at 2-3mph
16:56<andythenorth>sound ok?
16:57<frosch>planetmaker: it does the same as reapplying newgrfs in the newgrf gui. reload the newgrfs from the same path without checking grfids or md5sums, and reset newgrf data (like e.g. resetengines)
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: what's that in real measures? :)
16:58<andythenorth>what, some kind of crazy metric system?
16:58<andythenorth>or SI?
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>no, in saxon postal miles, of course :p
16:59<andythenorth>meh
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>i mean km/h
16:59<andythenorth>16 vehicles 1/8 long looks very pretty going up and down slopes :)
17:00*andythenorth ponders an entirely new way of creating vehicles
17:01<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: 24km/h top speed, 4-6km/h on a bridge slope, 3-4km/h on bigger slope
17:02<andythenorth>also, speed out to be part of the incentive to refit to shorter trains....
17:02<andythenorth>I'll test a 9 wagon consist with this loco
17:04<frosch>[22:03] <andythenorth> 16 vehicles 1/8 long looks very pretty going up and down slopes :) <- sounds like a new approach to burst the 64k vehicle limit :p
17:05<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: 9 wagons gives 50t, 24km/h top speed, climbs any slope at 6-8km/h
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>frosch: you have a better idea to add/remove vehicles during refit?
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that sounds good
17:05<frosch>nope, its the only way :)
17:06<frosch>that is just my method to mentally prepare for somewhen lifting that limit, as it gets encountere more often
17:06<andythenorth>I was thinking of making a 'single' vehicle from 8 very thinly sliced sprites and 8 1/8 vehicles. Follows slopes nicely :)
17:07<frosch>how does it look in curves?
17:08<andythenorth>frosch: rubbish :)
17:09<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: 4 wagon consist 16t, 12km/h on any slope
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: great
17:10<frosch>if you are lucky fs#3569 might make short vehicles at least turn around their central axis
17:10<@Belugas>bye
17:10<@Belugas>buy
17:10<frosch>bye belugas
17:11<frosch>buy some cookies?
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17:16*andythenorth wonders if industrial trams should have any random liveries
17:16<andythenorth>as the copy and paste code supports that
17:16<andythenorth>and is about to get deleted...
17:17<Starn>i've noticed something...
17:17<Starn>why is their no 18 wheelers?
17:18*andythenorth hides
17:18<__ln__>Starn: english only
17:18<Starn>i am speaking english.
17:19<planetmaker>Each sentence of the last three contained at least one error
17:20<Starn>not my fualt i can not spell... ok so maybe it is but still.
17:20-!-Tennel [~Tennel@port-ip-213-211-212-153.reverse.mdcc-fun.de] has joined #openttd
17:20<Starn>just think.. i am an american..
17:21<planetmaker>The answer to your question: Nobody, also not you, did draw one. Or neither you nor me know which newgrf has one
17:21<Nite_Owl>eGRVTS
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17:22<andythenorth>egrvts features 14 wheelers
17:22<Nite_Owl>close enough
17:22<Starn>oh if it is a matter of drawing one than i can draw a box with wheels and and windows and another box with wheels yay
17:22<planetmaker>Starn, being American (or more specifically US, I guess) entitles you to crappy language? Interesting...
17:23<OwenS>I'd say it entitles you less than the 90% of the people in this room for which it is a second language ;-)
17:23<Starn>no it should entitle me to better language skills primarly in english..
17:24<andythenorth>HEQS has a 24 wheeler
17:24<Starn>24!?
17:24<andythenorth>and a 28 wheeler + 2 tracks :)
17:24<planetmaker>:-)
17:24<Starn>o.O
17:24<CIA-6>OpenTTD: glx * r19516 /trunk/src/misc/ (blob.hpp str.hpp): -Fix (r19467): MSVC 64bit warnings
17:24-!-frosch [~frosch@frnk-590f7f42.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:25<Nite_Owl>and some huge dump trucks
17:26<Starn>hehe dump trucks :)
17:27<Starn>sweet i start up openTTD and i hear thunder..
17:28-!-Tennel [~Tennel@port-ip-213-211-212-153.reverse.mdcc-fun.de] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.1.1]
17:28<Starn>guess i shall check radar and some weather reports see if i can stay on or not...
17:28<Nite_Owl>Plonk anyone ?? Do I hear a Plonk ??
17:29<Starn>hmm judging by the size of the hail i gtg...
17:29<Nite_Owl><with apologies to DaleStan>
17:29-!-Starn [~Starn@adsl-67-67-8-79.dsl.okcyok.swbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>"two plonks, do i hear more?"
17:29<Nite_Owl>I guess the hail hit his connection
17:30*andythenorth tries to figure out how to enable newgrf_developer_tools
17:30<CIA-6>OpenTTD: glx * r19517 /trunk/src/misc/str.hpp: -Fix (r19516): compile before commit (a gcc warning was hidden)
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17:51<OwenS>Hmm, this is somewhat... interesting...
17:51-!-snack2 [~nn@dsl-mlimmlgw1-ff1ec000-127.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )]
17:51<OwenS>I need to be able to click on a specific signal. That is, one facing down a specific Trackdir...
17:59<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: improve the wording? http://tt-foundry.com/misc/tram_refit.png
18:00<__ln__>"road vehicle" sounds so wrong if it's a tram.
18:01<andythenorth>__ln__: can't be helped :)
18:01<andythenorth>well....it could, probably quite easily :)
18:02-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1BBEC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:02<andythenorth>alternative wording: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/tram_refit_2.png
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>i find the first one better
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i've thought about that myself, but i'm not sure if it can be improvedi
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>-i
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18:09<andythenorth>I thought there was a cb for the default name of a vehicle :o
18:09<andythenorth>that would fix the issue for trams
18:11<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/tram_refit_3.png
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i'm not sure if i like that
18:14<andythenorth>sometimes colour can make things too....noisy
18:16<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: one more, although this is almost certainly a bad idea http://tt-foundry.com/misc/tram_refit_4.png
18:16<andythenorth>also...check the title
18:16<andythenorth>(the vehicle name)
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>määh...
18:16<andythenorth>thought so
18:17<andythenorth>I'll keep it simple
18:17<andythenorth>if someone adds (discovers?) a cb for setting default vehicle name, I'll use it...
18:18<andythenorth>looks like offset 60 http://tt-foundry.com/misc/tram_refit_4.png
18:19<andythenorth>if the player can set it, surely a newgrf hook isn't a big deal?
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>HAH, finally a bad commit in this bisect... i was thinking i'm going mad and imagined this bug...
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18:22<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you mean similar to town name lookup?
18:23<andythenorth>think so. I know I've seen this somewhere, but it seems not for vehicles...
18:23<andythenorth>I guess it's a bit like industry setting station name?
18:23<andythenorth>in concept, not implementation :)
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: problem is, the callback must be called every time the name is displayed (vehicle details, vehicle list, etc.)
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>this might get slow
18:23<andythenorth>hmm
18:24<andythenorth>I was thinking just set it as the default when the vehicle is built?
18:24<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know how it's done with industries
18:24<andythenorth>if the player can rename vehicle, so can the build code...
18:24<Eddi|zuHause>these names tend to not be stored
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18:24<Eddi|zuHause>vehicle renaming works different
18:25<OwenS>Unrenamed trains get composed from a translated string do they not?
18:25<andythenorth>Hmm
18:25<OwenS>Yeah, "STR_SV_ROAD_VEHICLE_NAME :Road Vehicle {COMMA}"
18:26<andythenorth>actually, if trams are not names "Road vehicle n", it starts to become inconsistent with menus etc.
18:26<andythenorth>maybe changing it is a bad idea
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: possible could be a property, but not a callback
18:28<andythenorth>yep, better idea. I was thinking it would need a cb to set it, but it can just be a prop with a string ID ?
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18:31<Eddi|zuHause>yes
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>and if 0, use ottd string
18:31<andythenorth>"make it so" :P
18:31<andythenorth>what could go wrong?
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18:33<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure there's a "GetVehicleName" function somewhere
18:36<OwenS>Picking, picking picking... hmm....
18:40<OwenS>...Perhaps I should take the easy way out, and only allow selecting one ways...
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18:42*andythenorth discovers newgrf_developer_tools setting
18:42<andythenorth>yay
18:43<andythenorth>is there a config option for console height?
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>i don't remember one
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>but new windows snap to the console after it is open
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19:27<Yexo>is there any reason to use action9 instead of action7 except skipping action F?
19:30<Eddi|zuHause>i never understood the difference
19:34<SpComb>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=47746 <-- this suggestion is mising one crucial thing
19:34<planetmaker>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Action7 <-- this says it matters for action3
19:35<planetmaker>and action4.
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19:36<Yexo>planetmaker: yes, it matters, but I don't see any advantage of action9 (except for action F)
19:36<Yexo>"If in doubt, use action 7 except to skip an action 6 or F.", but then later "6 (apply param) n/a* yes * "yes" since 2.0.1 alpha 51 " so even skipping action6 would be ok
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19:38<planetmaker>hm
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19:44<planetmaker>I could imagine to use action9 and action7 differently, when you want to skip a lot during initialization but upon activation - as a function of available newgrf - apply certain sprite replacements
19:45<planetmaker>Sounds complicated? Probably is.
19:46<planetmaker>ah, exchange activation and initialization in the sentence ;-)
19:50<Terkhen>good night
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19:54<planetmaker>good night from here, too
19:56<Ammler>Yexo: I needed Action9 to skip openttd only features in opengfx for ttdpatch
19:57<Yexo>ah, good point
19:57<Ammler>Yexo: tell me, why :-P
19:58<Yexo>because that means I'll have to implement support for action9 too
19:58<Ammler>maybe the difference is in patch only?
19:59<Yexo>even in that case it'd be a good reason to suport action9
19:59<Ammler>but what is the difference?
20:00<Yexo><Ammler> Yexo: I needed Action9 to skip openttd only features in opengfx for ttdpatch <- didn't you jus ttell me there are cases where action9 works but action7 not?
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20:00<Ammler>yes, but why? :-D
20:00<Yexo>I have no idea
20:01<Yexo>those openttd only features, where that action5s?
20:01<Ammler>so in openttd, there isn't any difference?
20:01<Eddi|zuHause>there are three stages of understanding
20:01<Eddi|zuHause>understanding that something works
20:01<Eddi|zuHause>understanding how something works
20:01<Eddi|zuHause>understanding why something works
20:02<Ammler>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/opengfx/repository/entry/sprites/ogfxe_extra.pnfo#L33
20:02<Ammler>airport, autorail, flags, gui...
20:03<Yexo>so indeed all action 5
20:03<Yexo>did you test with action7 at all?
20:04<Ammler>yes, I did, frosch said I should use action9
20:05<Ammler>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=809088#p809088
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20:07<Yexo>DaleStan: is it true that to skip openttd-specific action5s you need an action 9, not action7? If so, a note should be added to the Action7 wiki page
20:07<Starn>i've encountered an issue with MS Visual C++.... and openttd source...
20:08-!-Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B778A5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit []
20:08<Yexo>Starn: yes, and?
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20:09<Starn>i'm following step by step on the wiki and i am to "righ-click on openttd (preject) -> properties -> C/C++ -> general -> additional include directories." and i right clicky and it gives me this.
20:10<Starn>the operation could not be completed. unspecified error.
20:10<Starn>i've been following every little detial on this wiki to the very lettering.
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20:11<Yexo>it gives you that error when you right-click on the project name?
20:11<Starn>well and click on properties.
20:11<Yexo>so the property window is never opened?
20:12<Yexo>that shound like a bug in MSVC, that has nothing to do with openttd
20:12<Starn>exactly instead an error box.
20:13<Starn>would it matter that i am on win 7 pro 64bit. using MSVC 2008 64bit..
20:13<Yexo>could be, it could also be something else, I have no idea
20:13<Yexo>but this is a problem in MVSC, not in openttd
20:14<Starn>was kinda hoping some one had this issue or knew what caused it..
20:15<Starn>guess i go to plan b.. and use eclipes.. i like it for python.. never used for C++...
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20:31<fjb>Eclipse doesn't like me.
20:32<Starn>lets hope in C++ eclipse likes me
20:34<fjb>I have given up. It never does what I intend to do, really unintuitive to use and complicated to configure, at least for my projects.
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20:37<Starn>well i've only used it for python it may end up being to hard for me as well for C++.
20:39<Starn>i have a feeling i am going to run into a crap load of issues with this as well due to fact i am win 7 pro 64bit
20:41<+glx>I have no problems on win7 64 with msvc express 2008
20:42<fjb>I would really have some trouble if I would be "win 7 pro 64bit".
20:42<+glx>"I'm PC and windows 7 is my idea" ;)
20:43<@Rubidium>"hi, I'm a x86 and my processor is inherently racy"
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20:46<OwenS>Rubidium: Refering to mov ss, x; mov esp, y;?
20:47<@Rubidium>OwenS: no, branch prediction + pipelines etc causing races
20:47<@Rubidium>OwenS: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/click-crash-course-modern-hardware 39:00-47:30
20:47<OwenS>Rubidium: Don't they in any modern processor?
20:48<+glx>the problem is probably due to CISC
20:49<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: the question is not whether they do, but whether it's specified that they do
20:50<OwenS>Aah
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20:51<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: x86 being backwards compatible and all probably means they can't do that...
20:51<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: True. Unlike many processors which say things like "Cache coherency is only guaranteed when induced by a volatile load"
20:51<Eddi|zuHause>http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=22155 <-- anyone want to solve that?
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20:52<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: ask Owen?
20:53<OwenS>You have a request for logs (Assuming its you) :p
20:53<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: and attach the logs they asked for! :)
20:56<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, need to create them first...
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22:27<Starn>hmm whats the diferents in openttd_vs80 amd openttd_vs90? for i can right click and go to properties and change stuff in there with 80 but not 90.. under 90 i get an unkown error.
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---Logclosed Thu Mar 25 00:00:28 2010