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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-03-25

---Logopened Thu Mar 25 00:00:28 2010
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03:07<Yexo>good morning
03:09<planetmaker>good morning
03:10<@Rubidium>moaning
03:12<@peter1138>heh
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03:14<@peter1138>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=866680#p866680
03:14<@peter1138>^ good job we don't let NewGRFs check :p
03:18<planetmaker>omg
03:24<ccfreak2k>peter1138, indeed.
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03:24<Terkhen>good morning
03:26<ccfreak2k>In C, I can put an enumerated variable in a struct right?
03:26<Yexo>yes
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04:25<andythenorth>morning
04:27<Terkhen>hi andythenorth
04:27*andythenorth admires the new alphabetical mini map industry list :)
04:27<Terkhen>:P
04:28<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: morning. Seen your pm?
04:31<@Rubidium>what about the cargo payment graph?
04:31<andythenorth>not alphabetical :o
04:31<@Rubidium>shouldn't that be alphabetically sorted too?
04:32<andythenorth>would be nicer
04:32<andythenorth>also the industry list needs two cargo filters similar to depot menu: 'accepts' 'produces'
04:33<Terkhen>I was thinking about sorting cargos at the filter by cargo dropdown in the build vehicle window too
04:34<andythenorth>would make sense
04:34<Terkhen>the cargo payment graph would look nice indeed
04:34<Terkhen>but I think that passengers and mails are expected to appear first
04:34<Terkhen>mail*
04:36<andythenorth>you could bounce those to the top
04:36<andythenorth>is it some kind of list?
04:37<andythenorth>list sort, list slice 'PAX', list insert 'PAX' at position 0?
04:37<Terkhen>probably a list sorted by cargo ID
04:37<Terkhen>can I expect them to always have the same cargo ID?
04:38<@Rubidium>shouldn't that happen in the smallmap too? Actually, I'd say all cargo lists should be sorted the same way
04:38<andythenorth>Terkhen: cargo IDs aren't reliable between newgrfs, (or even within newgrfs - sometimes)
04:39<andythenorth>but they should be consistent in any given game?
04:39<Yexo>untill the newgrfs are reloaded
04:39*andythenorth reloads newgrf with the console :D
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04:40<Terkhen>I had to sort the industry list at the smallmap again if language changes too
04:41<Terkhen>I agree, a single cargo list for all of these problems makes sense
04:43<Terkhen>and the sorted industry list could be used at the found new industry window too
04:44<ccfreak2k>I need a word that rhymes with struct.
04:44<andythenorth>ccfreak2k: I can think of one
04:45<Terkhen>klutz?
04:45<ccfreak2k>Bonus if it's a C or C++ keyword.
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04:46<andythenorth>duct, booked, looked, sucked?
04:47<andythenorth>duct doesn't rhyme so well
04:47<andythenorth>Terkhen: sorting fund industry window == win :)
04:47<andythenorth>hmmm
04:47<andythenorth>no Eddi|zuHause
04:48<Terkhen>I'll look into a general solution then... once I fix the pc where I usually code
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05:20<planetmaker>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=866716#p866716 <-- peter1138 - maybe he'll understand, though I doubt he'll concede.
05:22*andythenorth feels the love for a faster make file
05:22<planetmaker>fast enough now?
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05:24<andythenorth>HEQS is seriously fast
05:25<andythenorth>FIRS not as fast, but still improved. Lot more templating in FIRS :)
05:25<planetmaker>Well. Size scales somewhat with grf size :-)
05:28<andythenorth>hmmm
05:29<andythenorth>that's a nice feature, RVs with capacity 0 are not shown in vehicle info window's list of 'trailers'
05:29<andythenorth>looks better than the alternative
05:30<@peter1138>planetmaker, i was more amused by his copyright 'argument'
05:31<andythenorth>I gave up on trying to understand that.
05:31<andythenorth>Nice sets he makes though :P
05:32*andythenorth wonders about templating some HEQS code
05:32*Terkhen does not understand it either
05:35<@Rubidium>it's easy... he just doesn't want to say that he hates OpenTTD's developers
05:40<andythenorth>buyer remorse
05:42<Noldo>peter1138: me too
05:42<planetmaker>I cannot say I followed the copyright argument.
05:43<Ammler>hehe, he thinks, it is legal to make derivates of ttd base sprites as long as someone has the original.
05:44<Yexo>it's something like this: "we distribute copyrighted graphics, normally this isn't allowed but since all users need the original ttd graphcis for some reason this is ok"
05:44<Yexo>since opengfx not all users need to have the original ttd graphics so he's just distribution copyrighted graphics without permission
05:44<Noldo>basically yes
05:44<Yexo>Ammler: making the derivates is legal, distributing them not
05:45<Ammler>yexo, as always...
05:45<planetmaker>as usual :-)
05:45<@peter1138>patch: **** malformed patch at line 291: @@ -337,15 +316,14 @@
05:45<@peter1138>patch: **** malformed patch at line 291: @@ -337,15 +316,14 @@
05:45<@peter1138>:s
05:46<Ammler>discussing legal things in non legal topics sucks, so I didn't answer him...
05:47<Ammler>theoretically, you could check for the baseset GRFID to determine, which is loaded...
05:47<OwenS>Ammler: Change OpenGFX' to be the same as original_windows? :-P
05:48<Yexo>or modify openttd so the baseset grfids are not detectable
05:49<Ammler>OwenS: he doesn't do that, he just made theoretic scenarios
05:49<OwenS>Ammler: Yeah, but if he did, then that would be a solution :p
05:49<OwenS>..then he would probably go "if openttd disallow" though...
05:50<Yexo>he's doing that already
05:50<Yexo>with the testing versions that'll only work on ttdpatch
05:52<OwenS>Someone should add hidden settings to mask as TTDPatch for certain GRFIDs...
05:52<Noldo>you can make a patch for personal use
05:53<OwenS>Noldo: I'm aware of that, but I would need to learn the GRF code first ;-)
05:54<planetmaker><OwenS> Someone should add hidden settings to mask as TTDPatch for certain GRFIDs...<-- lol :-)
05:56<Ammler>the easiest might be to add a "sprite skipper" to the openttd developer mode.
06:02<@Rubidium>why do you all care? If he doesn't want it to be used, let him waste time for the noone that use his stuff
06:03<Yexo>because he does make nice newgfs, and it would be a shame if they were unusable
06:03<planetmaker>Yexo, they're anyway lost to those who come after him. No re-use of any code permitted
06:05<planetmaker>OwenS, I'm quite sure that the CanSet graphics are original to the same degree as OpenGFX is original
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06:06<andythenorth>FWIW CanSet graphics are almost entirely by Dan MacK
06:07<@Rubidium>andythenorth: he isn't the problem; oztransltd is
06:07<andythenorth>I know - just wanted to be clear. Dan MacK has a 'use it freely' provision on his work. It's not a legal license, but he's publicly stated the intent enough times in enough places that it should be clear
06:07<planetmaker>yep... Rail sprites in OpenGFX are currently on the way to be DanMacK-ified ;-)
06:08<@Rubidium>oh, so you don't need to load the canrail set anymore? :)
06:08<planetmaker>hehe :-) Might be.
06:08<planetmaker>Also he stated that he's going to provide lots of graphics for an OpenGFX+ newgrf
06:08<Ammler>this guy is a maschine
06:09*andythenorth wonders if it's time for a US Renewal Set renewal
06:09<OwenS>planetmaker: I'm refering to the reference of the baseset graphicsi ncorporated
06:09<planetmaker>OwenS, yes, I am, too ;-)
06:09<OwenS>Or in other words, to this: "As it is no longer necessary to own TTD 'original' base graphic files to play an OpenTTD game (e.g. with OpenGfx); any GRF (not just ours) that contains TTD 'original' graphics is in breach of copyright law, if used by players that do not have in their possession the Transport Tycoon Deluxe game."
06:10<planetmaker>There's little point to copy them verbatim. And derivation... depends what is genuine art and what is a derivative.
06:10*andythenorth thinks this a reprise of what has gone before
06:10<andythenorth>lets write some code!
06:10<OwenS>Hehe
06:10<OwenS>I think if your sprites contain the original ground tiles, it's pretty unambiguously derivative
06:10<andythenorth>at some point OzTrans will release something. It will be good. It may or not work in OTTD.
06:11<andythenorth>Meanwhile, he gets a lot of conversational bandwidth around here :|
06:12<Ammler>well, most here do make fun about...
06:12<planetmaker>which is the whole point. Of his statements wrt support / copyright / ...
06:12<Ammler>so not really something to fear...
06:12*andythenorth writes some code
06:14<andythenorth>hmmm
06:14-!-heffer [~felix@mue-88-130-96-243.dsl.tropolys.de] has quit [Quit: heffer]
06:14<andythenorth>one simple template used twice, or one complex action 2 and no template :|
06:23<planetmaker>KISS
06:25<andythenorth>hmm
06:25<andythenorth>I've never seen this renum error before
06:25<andythenorth>http://paste.openttd.org/225406
06:28<Yexo>it expects a word-value at the place where you have "\b4 80"
06:28<Yexo>while your code is correct, \b is used to escape a single byte
06:28<Yexo>so renum tells you it found a 1-byte long escape sequence but expected a word-value
06:30<Yexo>http://paste.openttd.org/225407 <- initial support for actionD / action6
06:31<andythenorth>thanks Yexo
06:33<@peter1138>heh
06:34<@peter1138>cool, HS2 will go past here
06:34<@peter1138>i'll be able to watch the 400km/h trains ;p
06:34<OwenS>If HS2 gets built...
06:34<@Rubidium>didn't the Chinese want to build something?
06:35<OwenS>Which I'd prefer not, as a Transrapid line would be cooler...
06:35<@peter1138>and more likely to flop
06:36<OwenS>Transrapid track isnt much more expensive than high speed rail, and doesnt need as much land...
06:36<OwenS>Also, HS2 does nothing useful for the majority of the UK which actually needs new rail connections, rather than the South which already has lots...
06:37<@peter1138>yup, it'll shave off 25 minutes of an already existant route
06:37<@peter1138>pretty pointless
06:38<OwenS>I wouldnt object to it if there werent major areas off the rail network which should be on it...
06:39*andythenorth wonders how RoadTypes are coming along
06:39<andythenorth>ever more uses for them :o
06:39<@peter1138>i haven't started any coding
06:40<andythenorth>coding's the easy bit :) Thinking is the hard bit
06:40<@Rubidium>hmm, the Japanes rail route planner thingy is a bit broken... 91 minutes from Tokyo to Hakata (1200 km) when not taking the Shinkansen(s)
06:41<@Rubidium>303 minutes with the fastest Shinkansen
06:41<andythenorth>meh
06:41<OwenS>91mins = 800km/h
06:41<OwenS>Is that a maglev route/ :P
06:41<@peter1138>road and tram bits are fairly hard coded
06:41<@peter1138>will be interesting to separate it all
06:41<andythenorth>12mph: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/TramTest1.png
06:41<@Rubidium>OwenS: nah, it's just 1 day + 91 minutes
06:41<andythenorth>sprites by Mr. Dan MacK ^
06:41<OwenS>Rubidium: rofl
06:42<@peter1138>nice
06:42<@peter1138>andythenorth, stop teasing us :s
06:42<OwenS>God damnit, why does my phone have an oddball MicroUSB cable?!
06:42<@Rubidium>even the plane Tokyo-Fukuoka/Hakata takes 115 minutes
06:43<andythenorth>peter1138: how about 1 tram commit for 1 roadtype commit :P
06:44<@peter1138>errr
06:45<@peter1138>doesn't work like that :)
06:45<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/tram_test_refits.png
06:46<@peter1138>that looks odd
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06:47<__ln__>what's up with the tram stop signs?
06:47<andythenorth>where?
06:48<__ln__>in general
06:49<__ln__>not related to what you are doing now
06:49<andythenorth>they look fine to me
06:49<andythenorth>except we need a little tram icon
06:49*andythenorth wonders if trams should be an entirely new type of route
06:50<andythenorth>in an ideal world...
06:50<andythenorth>putting them under the road menu is confusing no?
06:51<SpComb>how do trams differ from road vehicles
06:52<Ammler>andythenorth: isn't the cap compared to trucks a bit low?
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06:52<andythenorth>Ammler: this is the 'small' tram
06:52<andythenorth>available 1903
06:52<andythenorth>compared to other road vehicles at that point, these are going to rock :)
06:52<Ammler>ok :-)
06:53<andythenorth>bigger ones come in 1920
06:53<andythenorth>anything bigger, use a proper train ;)
06:53<andythenorth>SpComb: gameplay, trams == rvs
06:53<andythenorth>but in the mind of the player looking at a menu?
06:54<Ammler>he, you need smoke ;-)
06:55<@peter1138>hmm, was there enough map space for 16 road types?
06:56<andythenorth>if not...constraints are good ;)
06:56*andythenorth is slightly scared by the discussions around railtypes
06:56<@Rubidium>peter1138: there should be :)
06:56<@peter1138>hmm?
06:56<@Rubidium>for road tiles m4 is free
06:56<@peter1138>k
06:56<@peter1138>also bridges and tunnels and crossings, heh
06:57<@peter1138>and stations
06:57<@peter1138>hm
06:57<Yexo>all of these have m4 free
06:57<@peter1138>\o/
06:57<SpComb>255 road types!
06:57*andythenorth runs away
06:57<Yexo>SpComb: that'd limit it to one roadtype per tile
06:57<Yexo>so no tram+road
06:58*andythenorth considers a rail type that only works on alternative days of months containing the character 'r'
06:58<andythenorth>no tram+road :o
06:59<andythenorth>16 will be more than ample for the OCD freaks to ruin gameplay with fine-grained rules :)
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06:59<@peter1138>nutracks goes a bit over the top, heh
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06:59<andythenorth>it was the discussion on axle loadings and voltages that started to really scare me
07:00*andythenorth sometimes forgets to electrify one tile, which can be sad
07:00<andythenorth>hmmm
07:00-!-|Terkhen| is now known as Terkhen
07:01<andythenorth>road, freeway, tramway, electrified tramway, trolley bus route, trail / dirt road
07:01<__ln__>Terkhen: why doesn't TVE Internacional have EPG data?
07:01<andythenorth>6 RoadTypes. Other suggestions?
07:03<andythenorth>Cable Car (SF style), elevated monorail (Zephyris), aerial tram (ropeway), funicular
07:03<andythenorth>ice road
07:03<andythenorth>guided bus route
07:03<Terkhen>__ln__: I have no idea
07:03<Eddi|zuHause>two tile road with embedded tram in the middle!
07:03*andythenorth has an OCD side too :o
07:04<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: needs some changes to pathfinder?
07:04*andythenorth was thinking about freeways
07:04<Eddi|zuHause>not necessarily the pathfinder, but the road movement patterns
07:04<andythenorth>if vehicles can pathfind on either side of the road (depending on LHD/RHD game setting), can they be tricked into pathfinding on both sides of a one way road?
07:05<andythenorth>so they see two routes on one tile
07:05<andythenorth>overtaking I don't care about right now
07:05<Eddi|zuHause>... but i was going to say something completely different, but forgot...
07:05<__ln__>Terkhen: ok
07:06<Yexo>andythenorth: for the pathfinding it doesn't matter what the value of the LHD/RHD setting is
07:06<Yexo>it just takes into account all vehicles driving in the same direction
07:09<Terkhen>__ln__: IIRC TVE has EPG, but I didn't know it has an international channel
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07:14<Eddi|zuHause>http://wurstball.de/static/ircview/pictures/749cd15bf9d0254286148f468567b29e.jpg
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07:14<Eddi|zuHause>strangely, it's missing python
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07:27<andythenorth>isn't this just aircraft breakdown? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=47746
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07:35*andythenorth ponders tram locomotives with stats improving over time
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07:43<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: not sure 1/8 vehicles are going to work
07:43<andythenorth>(visually)
07:43<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: why not?
07:43<andythenorth>they'll be about 3px long in most views :)
07:43<andythenorth>I've pm'ed you Dan's test sprite
07:44<Eddi|zuHause>well, visually they would be 3/8 long, only 2 out of 3 would be invisible
07:44<andythenorth>so 15 vehicles wouldn't draw 15 sprites?
07:44<Eddi|zuHause>yes
07:44<andythenorth>hmmm
07:44<andythenorth>and this isn't weird because....? :)
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>so you have (invisible vehicle)-(visible vehicle that is oversized)-(invisible vehicle) as one wagon
07:46<Eddi|zuHause>and that stretches to 3 visible vehicles of correct size for the long version
07:46<andythenorth>but the count of visible wagons != count of wagons for vehicle
07:46<andythenorth>which some players will figure out and find strange
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>only the visible wagons have capacity. nobody will find out :)
07:47<andythenorth>hmm
07:48<andythenorth>resp. making vehicles invisible for <15 wagons, I have that working now
07:48<andythenorth>ah, I think I see what you mean
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>so the short version has: ((engine)+(3x invisible))-((wagon)+(2x invisible))-((wagon)+(2x invisible))-((wagon)+(2x invisible))-((wagon)+(2x invisible))
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>makes 1 engine + 4 visible wagons
07:49<andythenorth>yup
07:49<andythenorth>I don't think they need to be interleaved like that though
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>anything else might get weird overlapping or curve effects
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07:50<andythenorth>I think visible vehicles will be 2/8 long
07:51<andythenorth>if refitted to invisible I'll adjust to 1/8
07:51<Eddi|zuHause>well, you need to make sure that the total length is 1 tile
07:51<andythenorth>I don't think I can for the case where 15 wagons are visible
07:51<Eddi|zuHause>which can only be if all vehicles are 1/8
07:52<Eddi|zuHause>no, 15 visible wagons makes 3 tiles then
07:52<Eddi|zuHause>when all vehicles are stretched out to 3/8
07:52<andythenorth>so the 4 wagon case will fit nicely into 1 tile
07:52<andythenorth>4*1/8 + loco 2/8 (for smallest)
07:53<Eddi|zuHause>1 tile is 16/8
07:53<Eddi|zuHause>4 wagons = 1 tile, 9 wagons = 2 tiles, 15 wagons = 3 tiles
07:53<andythenorth>oops, bad maths above
07:53<andythenorth>4*2/8 = 8
07:54<andythenorth>loco 2/8 or 3/8
07:54<andythenorth>total 10/8
07:54<andythenorth>ok I get it
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>you have to mind that invisible vehicles still take space
07:54<andythenorth>yep
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>so the shortest version cannot be shorter than 16*1/8
07:55<andythenorth>so wagon length != drawn length
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>yes
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>drawn length stays constant for all refit versions
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>wagon length contracts or expands as necessary
07:56*andythenorth goes away to rethink nfo template
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08:11<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i have here a scheme for vehicle lengths/visible vehicles: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/tram.txt
08:12<andythenorth>:) nice art
08:12*andythenorth needs a wider screen
08:12<andythenorth>or a smaller browser font size
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08:14<jpm>hi
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>that's a 4/8th engine and 3/8th wagons
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08:15*andythenorth munches through some cpp
08:15<Eddi|zuHause>1 tile (16/8), 2 tiles-1/8 (31/8), 3 tiles+1/8 (49/8)
08:15<jpm>Does station rating affect how much of produced cargo is delivered to station from industry or town?
08:16<Eddi|zuHause>jpm: yes
08:16<jpm>how?
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>jpm: industry production gets reduced by the station rating
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>so if station rating is 60%, you get 60% of the industry's production
08:17<jpm>hmm...
08:18<Eddi|zuHause>jpm: plus, if multiple stations are nearby, only the two stations with the highest rating get cargo at all
08:18<jpm>What happens if there is more than one station?
08:19<Yexo>http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_Mechanics#Cargo_delivery_to_stations <- it's described there, although I'm not sure that is actually correct
08:23<jpm>I was thinking to create system so that in multiplayer game one could detemine discount % for station to attarct more cargo...
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08:27<jpm>The boost(Advertising) will gradually fall down to the calculated rating. How long it takes to fall back to calculated rating?
08:30*andythenorth wonders what happens if a vehicle is shortened to 8/8
08:30<@Rubidium>that depends on what the calculated rating is
08:30<@Rubidium>and even then... its behaviour is described in the game mechanics wiki page
08:32<jpm>Page just says: The boost(Advertising) will gradually fall down to the calculated rating.
08:32<@Rubidium>jpm: and the next sentence?
08:32<jpm>:)
08:35*andythenorth shortening a vehicle to 8/8 doesn't seem to blow up the game
08:36<andythenorth>frick
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08:41<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: got one working to that schema you provided
08:42<@peter1138>woo, it crashes :p
08:43<andythenorth>wut crashes?
08:43<@peter1138>my... secret code
08:44<Noldo>peter1138 is the Euler of openttd
08:44<@Rubidium>peter1138: come on... publish your initial roadtypes hg branch with almost 15000 revisions. That'll keep andythenorth busy for a while
08:45<@peter1138>http://hg.openttd.org/developers/peter1138/roadtypes.hg/
08:45<@peter1138>^ that one? :p
08:46<@Rubidium>yeah :)
08:46<@Rubidium>it's kinda sad that after working on it for more than 40 years there's still nothing
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08:57<andythenorth>bit mask help time
08:58<andythenorth>I need value of 'ii' - refit cycle for var 42 http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=VarAction2Vehicles#Consist_cargo_42_
08:58<andythenorth>my action is currently set up for a byte
08:58<andythenorth>I'd change it to a dword and mask 00FF0000
08:58<andythenorth>but you guys seem to like bit shifts...
08:59<planetmaker>subsequently I'd bit shift it by two bytes, 16 bit
08:59<andythenorth>example? :)
08:59<andythenorth>current code
08:59<andythenorth>http://paste.openttd.org/225410
09:00<andythenorth>need to move that from checking cargos to checking refit cycle
09:01<planetmaker>I guess it depends what you want to check for. For each of the single bits?
09:01<planetmaker>seems like...
09:08<andythenorth>well that seems to work
09:09<andythenorth>now just for graphics....
09:10<planetmaker>:-)
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09:21<@Belugas>hello
09:28<andythenorth>hi Belugas
09:30<@Belugas>hello andythenorth :)
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09:50<philippG>hi
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10:30<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: updated with a version for 4/8 wagons: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/tram.txt
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>(3/7/11/15 wagons)
10:32<andythenorth>thanks
10:33<andythenorth>I'm experimenting with which wagon lengths look best :)
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>i was thinking the 3/8 version for the early one, and the 4/8 for the later one
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10:40<andythenorth>might be 2/8 and 3/8
10:40<andythenorth>I'll see how it looks
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10:43<Eddi|zuHause>it shouldn't be too small
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11:05<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: think 4/8 is going to be better for later wagons
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>and i'm thinking 3/6/9/12/15 wagons work better with 4/8
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>but that's 5 refit options
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11:11<Eddi|zuHause>nah... 3/7/11/15 will be fine, just slightly more difficult ranges...
11:11<andythenorth>5 is too many
11:11<Eddi|zuHause>that's 1,2,3,4 tiles
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11:14<Eddi|zuHause>could do 3/9/15 though
11:15<Eddi|zuHause>1 tile, 2.5 tiles, 4 tiles
11:17<andythenorth>3, 9, 15 would be my preference
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>added that to the scheme
11:21<Eddi|zuHause>but 3/7/11/15 matches the lengths better (in terms of autoreplace)
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>if you then manage that the early 15 wagons version replaces to the later 11 wagons version, it keeps the length of 3 tiles
11:23<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/tram_electric_loco_type_2.png
11:23<andythenorth>^ three car, engine type number 2 (mid sized), 4/8 engine, 4/8 cars
11:24<andythenorth>side dump car as per http://home.arcor.de/vt18.16.10/900fz/900e.html#el3
11:24<@Belugas>english question : i've got a device with signature capture. so... "as soon as the signature has been <??drawed??><??drew??><???> on the device"
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>drawn
11:25<planetmaker>obtained?
11:25<planetmaker>obtained by
11:25<@Belugas>a cooky for Eddi|zuHause, and an honorific mention to planetmaker :)
11:25<@Belugas>thaks
11:25<@Belugas>+n
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11:26<SpComb>*cookie
11:26<@Belugas>mmh... right...
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>Belugas: possibly "written"
11:27<@Belugas>yeah.. indeed... even better
11:28*Belugas thinks as a programmer, and not as a end user...
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11:30<@peter1138>"scrawled" hehe
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11:40<andythenorth>pikka's train offsets do not translate seamlessly to trams :D
11:40<andythenorth>oh poop
11:40<ccfreak2k>Pikka chu.
11:41<andythenorth>ctrl-b is not my friend in this case
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>if you only had an offset editor within the game :)
11:41<andythenorth>if only
11:41<andythenorth>hmm
11:41*andythenorth builds just one wagon
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11:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think you're wasting at least 1 pixel of wagon length in that above picture :)
11:44<andythenorth>possibly
11:46<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: You have another WINE Bugzilla request
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>i know...
11:46<OwenS>(And why is Konqeror still restoring that window? :S)
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12:04*andythenorth has to figure out offsets if we're using crazy vehicle lengths
12:07*andythenorth thinks centering in the bounding box might be wisest
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12:17*andythenorth can't even begin to describe how dull tweaking offsets is
12:24<planetmaker>^^ No need. I know it.
12:24<planetmaker>One of the reasons I put off that in OpenGFX for three months...
12:25<andythenorth>did I mention an offset tool?
12:25<andythenorth>someone did :P
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12:26<Eddi|zuHause>TTDP alledgedly has one
12:26<andythenorth>it also allegedly doesn't have a mac build :|
12:26<andythenorth>nor will it load my sets :)
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12:31<andythenorth>hmmm
12:31<andythenorth>2.0
12:31<andythenorth>I know it's a bogus thread....but anyway
12:32<andythenorth>given that about 1/4 of the requests are about things that can be done in newgrf (maybe 1/2 if we discount the insane ideas)....
12:32<andythenorth>how about 'better ways for players to use newgrfs'
12:33<andythenorth>Bananas is an order of magnitude improvement on the previous situation
12:34<andythenorth>what else could be better?
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>but that is already in 1.0 :)
12:34<OwenS>I like the person suggesting changing the speed at which time moves to match the speed at which vehicles do XD
12:34<OwenS>Perhaps he would also like trucks that aren't bigger than houses?
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>wagons that aren't wider than long :)
12:36<andythenorth>yeah, I'm not taking him up on his offer to write the FIRS manual :)
12:44-!-Seki [~Seki@c-71-237-70-85.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
12:44<Seki>Anyone have advice about "Read past end of pseudo sprite"?
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12:45<Seki>Does not occur in .7.5, but rc-3 throws that error on loading =\
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>Seki: the grf is wrong
12:45<Seki>Wrong how? (I'm writing the grf)
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>Seki: error checking has improved since 0.7
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>Seki: try renum
12:46<planetmaker>Seki, if you don't have a new nforenum, try http://openttd.org/download-nforenum
12:47<Seki>Thanks, just found the .pl version, but that's much easier
12:48<planetmaker>Seki, uhm... and MUCH older and reliable
12:48<planetmaker>*unreliable
12:48<planetmaker>nforenum does more than renumbering. It does a sanity check in many regards
12:49<planetmaker>And the latter is actually the important thing
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13:13<Seki>All right, I think I have it narrowed down to one error I can't fix.
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13:17<Seki>!!Fatal Error (64): Expected more data for prop 1A. (1 bytes at 8.)
13:19<philippG>how can i make AI harder to beat ?
13:19<planetmaker>philippG, write an AI which is harder to beat :-)
13:19<Seki>Any advice? From reading the SANITY log, it seems to expect more data, but from reading the TTDPatch action list, I should have the correct size data (Indeed, in .7.5 it works fine)
13:19<planetmaker>or modify one of the existing.
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>Seki: why can't you fix that?
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13:20<philippG>xD
13:20<planetmaker>philippG, yes, that's the only answer there is. Except you maybe have not tried all AI so far.
13:20<philippG>well haven t tested all AI scripts so far
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>Seki: what's property 1A?
13:20<philippG>which one is the best in ur eyes
13:20<Seki>Re-sort train list
13:21<planetmaker>NoCab, AdmiralAI and CluelessPlus perform very well, but that's my experience and my insufficient memory from beginning of this year.
13:21<planetmaker>Also Rondje, the parasit ;-)
13:21<andythenorth>meh
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>Seki: can you put the line on paste.openttd.org?
13:21<philippG>well admiral was to easy ^^
13:21<philippG>*o
13:22<Yexo>then try nocab
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13:22<Yexo>if that's too easy to, try to beat rondje with only road vehicles
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>philippG: try easier landscape (flatter, less water)
13:23<Seki>http://paste.openttd.org/225412
13:23<philippG>kk will try
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13:26<Seki>Eddi: Any ideas?
13:27<Yexo>Seki: the 09 is for "define 9 properties" but then only 1 property follows
13:27<Yexo>last thing on the line is "01D" which is not valid
13:27<Seki>My apologies, that was just my attempts to fix it
13:27<Seki>I have since updated the paste file.
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13:28<Seki>The 09 is actually number of IDs, not properties, no?
13:28<Yexo>eh, right
13:29<Yexo>ah, that is also the problem
13:29<Seki>Eh?
13:29<Yexo>you need to set the value for all ids
13:29<Yexo>so you have to repeat the 1D 9 times
13:29<Seki>O.o
13:29<Seki>Ah ha!
13:29<Seki>That answers one of my other questions too :D
13:29<Seki>Trying that
13:30<Seki>That'd be it. Thank you! I didn't know you had to repeat the var for each one
13:31<Seki>Eddi, Yexo: Thank you! =)
13:31<planetmaker>checks just became stricter :-)
13:33*andythenorth is very happy with reload_newgrfs :D
13:33<andythenorth>I should probably send hugs, but it might be weird
13:34<planetmaker>:-)
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13:45<OwenS>Hmm... Is there a way to reset a string back to its original colour?
13:45<Yexo>I don't think so
13:45<OwenS>:=S
13:46<OwenS>I'd like to have the "unspecified signal" in "If unspecified signal is green" in red, but the string itself could be either white or black
13:47<@Rubidium>IIRC NewGRF strings can do it, so it might not be very hard to implement for OpenTTD strings
13:47<OwenS>Hmm... For now, i'll just add a STR_WHITE/STR_BLACK and paste them afterwards
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13:49<Yexo>I can't find any way newgrfs can do it
13:50<@Rubidium>ah, found it: SCC_PREVIOUS_COLOUR (something only used internally)
13:53<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/trams_teaser_1.png
13:53<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/trams_teaser_2.png
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13:55<Eddi|zuHause>looks nice. the red might be too aggressive, though. and i think the engine needs more work...
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>engine is CC1 and wagons CC2?
13:56<andythenorth>engine is CC1 + 2, wagons are CC2
13:57<andythenorth>pick your own colours :)
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, but the read really bites...
13:59<Seki>Question for BaNaNaS: Do you upload a .tar, a .tar.gz, a .zip, or a .grf? :D
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>and i'm still in favour of the 3/7/11/15 variant
14:00<planetmaker>Seki, whatever you want from .tar, .tar.gz or .zip
14:00<planetmaker>actually .grf might work, too
14:00<andythenorth>these are same wagon sprites, but spaced closer
14:00<andythenorth>I think they're better: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/trams_teaser_38th_wagons.png
14:00<Seki>Thanks Planetmaker
14:00<planetmaker>But I prefer to supply a readme and a license
14:01<planetmaker>and a changelog :-)
14:01<Seki>Agreed, but I put the changelog in the readme ;)
14:02<planetmaker>:-) Then one of the archive format is best.
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so make the sprites longer? :)
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14:05<andythenorth>I think these will work for the smallest engine and wagons
14:05<andythenorth>any smaller is really *very* small
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>i think for the early version the wagons should be lower
14:06<andythenorth>yup
14:06<andythenorth>these are 3/8 for wagons and 4/8 for engine
14:07<andythenorth>so 4 wagons should work with this one
14:07<andythenorth>let me get the sizes worked out and I'll do a bit of redrawing
14:07<andythenorth>ok so 4 wagons workds
14:08<andythenorth>workds /s
14:08<andythenorth>ummm
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>:)
14:08<andythenorth>m)
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>this'll turn out great at the rate it's going now :)
14:11<fjb>Hm, no catenary?
14:15<andythenorth>transparent mode
14:27<andythenorth>reworked the wagons
14:27<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/trams_teaser_4.png
14:27<andythenorth>these look about 5t to me
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14:29<andythenorth>:) http://tt-foundry.com/misc/trams_teaser_5.png
14:29<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: ^
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14:29<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, that looks great
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14:30<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause I'll do up some stats and send you a test grf
14:31<Ammler>he, neat trains
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14:33<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i guess the size comparison is fairly realistic :)
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>these dump trucks are really huge!
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14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19518 /trunk/src/lang/ (german.txt japanese.txt spanish.txt):
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: german - 4 changes by planetmaker
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: japanese - 35 changes by nex259
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
14:46<OwenS>Hmm... assert(_globset.IsEmpty() || owner == _last_owner), in AddTrackToSignalBuffer, is causing my dependency walker to instigate a crash...
14:47<OwenS>Anyway, will fix after eating food :p
14:47<@Rubidium>OwenS: ./configure --disable-assert will magically solve that
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15:00<Hirundo>OwenS: Iterating over all signals and updating them at once will cause problems, yes
15:00<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: check your forum pms...
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>aye aye, sir!
15:01<andythenorth>I need a name for this tram....
15:01<andythenorth>Most HEQS vehicles are named after mountains.
15:03<Jolteon>How originals.
15:03<Jolteon>-s
15:03<@Rubidium>Olympos?
15:03<OwenS>Hirundo: Not all; I'm adding the signals that are in my dependency map
15:04<Hirundo>Cross-company dependencies?
15:04<OwenS>Hirundo: No. It's the _globset.IsEmpty
15:05<Hirundo>It should eat a non-empty globset, if your owner does not change
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>it should be prepared for cros-company dependency in context of IS
15:06<OwenS>Hirundo: Well, the || there is the problem..
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15:06<OwenS>Wait, no.. hmm
15:06<OwenS>How can there be a cross-company dependency with only one company? :S
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15:07<Hirundo>How do you determine the owner parameter of AddTrackToSignalBuffer?
15:07<OwenS>AddTrackToSignalBuffer(i->tile, i->track, GetTileOwner(i->tile));
15:08<OwenS>...I presume this means having a track on a tile does not make you its owner? Hmm
15:08<Hirundo>Does the dep check operate only on existing signals, or also when signals get removed?
15:09-!-lewymati [~lewymati@89.230.159.206] has joined #openttd
15:09<OwenS>Dependencies get updated when the signal they depend on chaneges state (Called from UpdateSignalsArroundSegment)
15:11<Starn>What is the diferents in openttd_vs80 and openttd_vs90? for i am unable to go to properties with vs90 but i can do so wih 80... i was trying to follow MSVC 2008 wiki but i am stuck due to an unkown error everytime i right click and click properties with vs90
15:11<OwenS>Starn: vs80 is MSVC2005, vs80 is MSVC2008
15:12<andythenorth>electric sparks effect for trams?
15:12<Hirundo>hmm.. Dump a ton of debug info to the console with DEBUG(..) and analyse, I'd say
15:13<Starn>than why would 2008 version be having issues with my copy of 2008? is it due to fact i am on windows 7 pro 64bit? though that does not make since.. 2005 version works just fine in my MSVC 2008
15:13<Ammler>low
15:14<Ammler>OwenS: why you need to care about owner at all?
15:14<OwenS>Ammler: Because OpenTTD does
15:14<Ammler>he, don't get it...
15:14*andythenorth hmmms
15:14<OwenS>I was gonna allow you to look at other companies signals to see what ingenious things people came up with, but that would break things :p
15:15<andythenorth>somehow visual effects are still missing for RVs :o
15:15<andythenorth>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Action0Trains#Visual_effects_and_wagon_power_22_
15:15<@Rubidium>Starn: because installing MSVC2008 after MSCV2010 beta might not be supported?
15:15-!-lolman [~Holygoat@cust247-dsl93-89-128.idnet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:15<andythenorth>How did this terrible thing happen? :P
15:15<OwenS>Ammler: The signal engine checks all signals its updating are from the same company. Hirundo probably knows better why
15:15<@Rubidium>Starn: and MSVC2005 is different enough to be not in the way of MSVC2010?
15:15<Starn>even after you remove 2010 and 2010 was on external hd?
15:16<@Rubidium>removed 2010 before or after installing 2008?
15:16<Starn>before
15:16<@Rubidium>because removing 2010 if 2008 is installed breaks 2008 (at least in my test)
15:16<Starn>i removed 2010 before installing 2008
15:16<Hirundo>OwenS: Most probably because the signal code can be called for non-existing (just-removed) signals. In that case, it is necessary to store the owner separately
15:17<@Rubidium>so it could very well happen in the other case too; don't know as I haven't tested it
15:17<OwenS>Hirundo: (gdb) print _last_owner $1 = INVALID_OWNER <-- ?!
15:17-!-einKarl [~einKarl@95-89-121-65-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:17<Hirundo>Let me check something..
15:19<@Rubidium>Starn: to be fair, I rather (re)install Windows and MSVC than uninstall MSVC and install another version
15:20<Starn>i cant reinstall windows due to the fact it is student copy.
15:20<@Rubidium>but then, reinstalling Windows is just extracting the clean VirtualBox image
15:20<Hirundo>OwenS: The _tbuset may be more appropriate than the _globset in this case
15:20<OwenS>Hirundo: Hmm.. Then I should perhaps move dependencies into signal.cpp, which is probably where they belong anyway
15:21<Starn>win7 is ran natively i do not have VB.
15:21<Starn>i have question which probably would save time is it easier to compile under linux for windows?
15:21<OwenS>Starn: In general, its easier to program under Unicies
15:22<Starn>well i use to use and mildly old linux... and i remember compile things with just one command.
15:22<Starn>a*
15:23<OwenS>"make" is generally the case for most Unix derivatives, yes
15:23<Starn>oh crap if it is still that easier vs windows... all i need than is a new HD.. and duel boot
15:24<Starn>until than i guess i can use qemu or vb or something.
15:28<Starn>hey Rubidium what would happen if you had 2005 installed and try installing 2008?
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15:30<OwenS>Hirundo: _Its gotta be _globset because all _tbuset signals are in the same segment
15:30<OwenS>Starn: It installs both
15:31<Starn>well i been looking in my list of programs and it shows at one point i had 2008 and 2005 installed and 2005 one was done during 09...
15:33<Starn>some of this stuff on my progam list is not really on my compute rnor has it been o.O maybe i should see about getting new cd key and reinstall windows all together..
15:34-!-ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
15:35*peter1138 gets rid of the jack patch
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15:36<Eddi|zuHause>jack the patch?
15:40<@peter1138>jacked the jack patch, i suppose
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15:42<OwenS>Yay! I now have a long distance Not gate :p
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15:54<DJNekkid>is it possible to remove something from bananas?
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15:56<Eddi|zuHause>DJNekkid: set the openttd versions available?
15:56<DJNekkid>yea, true enough
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15:57<DJNekkid>but then can another author upload something with the same grfID ?
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>sure...
15:57<DJNekkid>oki :)
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>why would the GRFID matter?
15:59<DJNekkid>i assume Lawton27 aint gonna change grfID on that new monolev set, and he asked me to remove the old version from bananas, so he could upload his own :)
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16:08<planetmaker>Hm... He should just update the old one
16:08<planetmaker>It doesn't make sense to remove something (nor is it possible)
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16:16<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: has a go with that tram yet? :)
16:18<planetmaker>DJNekkid: if asked nicely, it's possible to add a 2nd account to a newgrf entry at bananas
16:19<PeterT>planetmaker: Can you explain why michael blunck thinks your post is counter-productive? (http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=866744#p866744) It actually seemed quite helpful
16:19-!-devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@202.3.77.159] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:19<planetmaker>PeterT: he explained it why he thinks so. But he also has other reasons ;-)
16:19<PeterT>Answering to a mis-placed topic isn't the same as posting in the wrong forum
16:20<planetmaker>Further I completely agree with Rubi's and Yexo's replies, thus I won't enter that meta-discussion there
16:20-!-devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@202.3.77.159] has joined #openttd
16:21<planetmaker>In his eyes I'm most probably a lickspittle of the OpenTTD devs anyway ;-)
16:22<PeterT>he is being rude
16:23<PeterT>"It´s even more inappropriate than the original posting because you know better." <-- how was it innopropriate?
16:23<planetmaker>it's a lack of arguments. Just don't bother
16:24<PeterT>ok then
16:24<planetmaker>he simply doesn't like me ;-)
16:24<PeterT>why so?
16:26<andythenorth>lets code something instead :)
16:26*planetmaker hugs andythenorth :-)
16:27<andythenorth>I name the small electric tram "Kreuzberg"
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yeah, haven't found any obvious problems
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>except that there are no loading stages :)
16:27<andythenorth>nice, afk - I'll be back soon!
16:28-!-a1270 [~Cheese@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Quit: a1270]
16:46*andythenorth back
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16:57<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: next size up is 4/8 in your diagram?
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>yes
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>in lengths 1, 2, 2.5, 3, 4 tile lengths
16:59<andythenorth>k
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>one "lengths" too much
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>one could make the engine 6/8 if you want more details
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17:02<Eddi|zuHause>one could add 2 more wagons that way, too.
17:02<andythenorth>I'll do 6/8 for the largest engine
17:02<andythenorth>there are 3 electric engines planned
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>6/8 engine and 5/8 wagons maybe
17:12<andythenorth>could be
17:12<andythenorth>the mid sized wagons are 15t and 4/8
17:12<andythenorth>if I can be bothered to draw them, then the 26t wagons can be 5/8
17:12<andythenorth>but only if I can be bothered :)
17:17<OwenS>Hmm... Is there a way to tell OpenTTD to make uncompressed saves?
17:17<@Rubidium>openttd.cfg, savegame_format = none
17:17<OwenS>OK. Since I have savegame corruption :-(
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17:23<Nite_Owl>Hello all
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/tram.txt with 6/8+n*5/8 (n=4,8,12) version
17:24-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fd0ec.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>could add n=16, but that gets really long...
17:25<andythenorth>a thing of beauty
17:25<andythenorth>How about we just have the default name for an RV be 'Road Vehicle (Tram) n' if the tram flag is set?
17:28<OwenS>Furtehr evidence nobody (including me) have been testing my code enough
17:28<OwenS>I didn't save an instructions next pointer...
17:29<OwenS>...this bug has existed since I created the saveload code and that I haven't noticed it is evidently sheer luck...
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17:33<Nite_Owl>SpComb: your IRC logs are not accessible
17:34<Nite_Owl>unless the URL has changed ??
17:36<Nite_Owl>!logs
17:36<Nite_Owl>dang - I always use a bookmark
17:37-!-Seki [~Seki@c-71-237-70-85.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
17:37<Seki>Is there any way to change the name of a grf on BaNaNaS?
17:37-!-TheMask96 [~martijn@envy.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:39<planetmaker>depends what name you mean
17:40<OwenS>New progsigs at http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=47690&p=866843#p866843
17:41<planetmaker>But the displayed name in the content download can - IIRC - only be changed when you upload a new version
17:41<Seki>To change the name of the newgrf from something like "noMonoMag" to something more helpful "Monorail and Maglev Disabler" - The "Edit" function does not allow you to change the name
17:41<planetmaker>hm, wrong. No, it cannot
17:42<@Rubidium>the name is used as filename, making it technically very hard to rename stuff
17:42<Seki>Thank you, I'll live with the terrible name then :)
17:42-!-ProfFrink [~proffrink@5e065bd1.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd
17:43<planetmaker>it's concise ;-)
17:43-!-TheMask96 [martijn@sloth.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd
17:43<Ammler>create a new entry...
17:43<Seki>it is concise :)
17:43<Ammler>hmm, might not work with same id, i fear...
17:43<OwenS>Ammler: Its OK, according to convo PM had earlier
17:44<SpComb>Nite_Owl: they were down earlier today, but they should be loading fine now
17:44<planetmaker>hm?
17:44<Ammler>OwenS: I meant Seki :-P
17:44<OwenS>Ammler: And I was responding to your fear
17:44<Ammler>so you can make new bananas entry with same GRFID?
17:45<SpComb>although, I think I see what the issue is
17:45<planetmaker>Why would one want to do that?
17:45<Ammler>sounds a bit strange :-)
17:45<SpComb>the irclogs are currently only accessible over IPv6 for some interesting reason
17:45<planetmaker>for just renaming it's a bit strange
17:45<Ammler>well, you can "hide" the wrong entry
17:47<SpComb>gah!
17:47<SpComb>the value of net.ipv6.bindv6only changed
17:48<SpComb>how the heck did that happen
17:48<SpComb>Nite_Owl: fixed
17:48<Nite_Owl>thank you
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17:50<planetmaker>he... bananas upgrades get increasingly large ;-)
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17:52<Ammler>sfx is huge ;-)
17:54<planetmaker>true. That was part of the download :-)
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18:50<_Terkhen_>good night
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18:50<planetmaker>good night also from here
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19:53<Starn>yay i am debuging openTTD at least i got something to work
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22:34<Starn_>how do i kill ghost clients i forgot
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22:35<Starn_>nvm
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23:58-!-Wizzleby [~wizzleby@pool-108-2-19-44.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
---Logclosed Fri Mar 26 00:00:02 2010