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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-03-29

---Logopened Mon Mar 29 00:00:10 2010
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02:13<Terkhen>damned DST
02:14<@Rubidium>yeah... how can you be saving daylight when there is more daylight?
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02:36<planetmaker>moin moin
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04:00<knome>hey. http://wiki.openttd.org/GNU/Linux#Compiling_and_running incorrectly says you need the TTD files
04:01<Forked>so fix it :)
04:01<knome>feel free to :P
04:02<knome>anyway, do you happen to know when 1.0.0 is supposed to be released?
04:04<knome>http://wiki.openttd.org/GNU/Linux#Required_data_files is the direct link to the section. i'll leave the updating for somebody else
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04:11<planetmaker>knome, *someone* has already a HUGE list of tasks assigned to him.
04:11<planetmaker>Unlikely that he'll find time anytime soon
04:24<Ammler>someone is banned from openttd, if he/she should do it, nobody does...
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06:47<ddfreyne>hmm… I cannot find the changes for 1.0.x. where should I look for them?
06:47<PeterT>http://wiki.openttd.org/OpenTTD_1.0.0
06:47<PeterT>and changelog.txt
06:47<ddfreyne>ahh, thanks… not sure why I didn’t find that
06:49<@Rubidium>heh, that wiki page is still incomplete?
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06:55<ddfreyne>hmm… is cargodest on the roadmap for a certain release?
06:56<planetmaker>nope. CargodEst is dead for a year
06:56<ddfreyne>no activity on the branch either?
06:56<planetmaker>otherwise it woulnd't be dead
06:56<ddfreyne>hm, checked out the repository and seems like it. aw.
06:57<planetmaker>developer vanished (again)
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06:57<roboboy>try cargod?st
06:58<ddfreyne>planetmaker: that sucks
06:58<planetmaker>that's life, I guess
06:58<ddfreyne>planetmaker: as far as I can tell (and you’ll have to excuse me for not being really involved in the community and development) the branch was well on its way and it seemed playable
06:58<planetmaker>you could try cargodIst
06:59<planetmaker>but that's far from complete, too
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06:59<roboboy>is cargodest or cargodist prefered for inclusion once one is finished
06:59<planetmaker>roboboy, who knows?
07:00<@Rubidium>the only answer I could give to that question is "no"
07:00<planetmaker>boost vs. desync :-P
07:00<roboboy>so whichever is done first and best
07:00<@Rubidium>under the assumption that "one" means any "cargo has destination"-implementation
07:04<ddfreyne>ahh, cargodist is indeed in active development I see
07:07<Forked>DJNekkid: come and pick up your new DSL modem. Should sort out your connection issues.
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08:00<OwenS>http://razmir.wz.cz/nand2.png <-- I am impressed!
08:01<OwenS>nand1.png is a zoom on on one of the full adder elements
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08:10<FauxFaux>Now just make the game engine fast enough and supportive of big enough maps that we can have a useful turing machine. ¬_¬
08:12<OwenS>FauxFaux: A bit of NAND-based memory takes up ~10x10 tiles. BIIIG maps :p
08:13<OwenS>If I added memory to ProgSigs, then it would be interesting, however (Though building the thing would be insane)
08:13<FauxFaux>Iirc she was cheating and generating the gates anyway.
08:14<OwenS>Presumably copy & paste
08:14<OwenS>?
08:14<FauxFaux>I thought it was save files, but maybe.
08:14<OwenS>Because copy & paste is completely unaware of signal programs :D
08:16<OwenS>Also: How do you decide which signal a lookup should look at? One adjusted for the paste's location? The original? What if you're now looking at a signalless tile? What if you're looking at a signal you can't legally inspect?
08:17<__ln__>is that an adder?
08:17<OwenS>Yes. An 8-bit full adder
08:18<__ln__>nice
08:18<@Rubidium>OwenS: so in effect progsigs makes "copy&paste" completely infeasible
08:18<OwenS>Rubidium: If you copy the signal program, it makes it very complex
08:18<FauxFaux>Excel manages it. </not entirely j$o$k$e suggestion>
08:19<FauxFaux>The next trick is to implement programmable signals in pure ottd nand gates.
08:19<OwenS>It's possible, you would just have to deal with the corner cases (Though I'd be happy to do so)
08:19<OwenS>**happy to help do so
08:20<OwenS>I think I'd decide that references to signals inside the copy region are relative, to ones outside are absolute
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08:22<OwenS>Then it would be corner case checking, and working out the interface that c&p would use to do the actual pasting
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08:25<OwenS>(It would need an interface which returns the instruction ID of the just-added (by DoCommandP) instruction, and also need to deal with corner cases, like Start/End/Else/Endif pseudo instructions)
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08:30<OwenS>Rubidium: Its not much more than I'll deal with if/when I add the ability to save programs
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08:53<andythenorth>silly graphics argument :(
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09:07<@Belugas>hello
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09:10<planetmaker>hello sir Belugas :-)
09:16<@Rubidium>yay... Belugas is back at the "right" time again :)
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09:18<DJNekkid>Forked: at your home or at work? im off work theese 3 days :)
09:18<DJNekkid>(if i saied it two times, sorry, but it looked like i were disconnected)
09:19<planetmaker>you said it only once
09:19<@Belugas>hehe
09:19<@Belugas>looks like Europ caught up time :)
09:20<@Belugas>planetmaker, Rubidium, i salute you humbly and respectfully
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09:25<@Rubidium>DJNekkid: I must say, I like you writing "saied" :) "sayed" I can imagine because of 'just' appending '-ed', although "said" is the right way of writing. But "saied" looks like a mixup
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09:51<Forked>dumdidum
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10:42<erani>http://razmir.wz.cz/nand2.png
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>you realize that carry-ripple-adders aren't actually used anywhere except in float-multiplications...
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>it's both slow and has signal strength issues
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10:57<@Rubidium>argh.... stupid DST... now I'm hungry at the wrong time
10:58<@Rubidium>hungry two hours before the "winter time" time that is :(
11:00<planetmaker>I have a spare carrot here.... :-)
11:00<planetmaker>and now I need another :-(
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11:04<aber>spare carrot???
11:04<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: you moved the clock in the wrong direction? :)
11:06<@Rubidium>doubtful, because I didn't move the clock
11:12<planetmaker>aber, yes, I have a bunch of carrots in my office. They feed me when I'm hungry but when it's not yet feeding time
11:14<aber>planetmaker, one day, it was more like a week, noo like a month. I harvested 8 tons of carrots. Since then i'm a little strange about carrots... :)
11:15<planetmaker>hehe
11:15<Eddi|zuHause>you wished you had a spare carrot back then :p
11:15<planetmaker>they make healthier "snack" than chocolate or alike
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>snacks shouldn't be healthy... they should be "brain food"
11:16<planetmaker>:-)
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>... i.e. energy that the stomach doesn't have to process
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>so it gets to the brain faster
11:18<@Rubidium>I don't need stuff that makes my brain go faster... then I'll have even more trouble keeping up with my thoughts when writing them down
11:25<@Belugas>yup... same as Rubidium in here. Brian goes fast enough as it is. no need more coffee than the 4 I took since this morning
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11:26<aber>4 l, thats pretty much i'd say
11:26<@Rubidium>aber: Belugas isn't an American that slurps ventis
11:26<lennard>4 I != 4L
11:28<@Belugas>lol
11:28<@Belugas>indeed not...
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11:28<@Belugas>the I stands for ME...
11:28<@Rubidium>oh, sorry a trenta is more like a liter than a venti
11:29<@Rubidium>can't remember trenta's being sold in Japan though
11:30<aber>Il maybe i should change the font to something... different Il
11:33<aber>maybe i should complain to the european union...
11:34<@Rubidium>for the broken font on your computer?
11:35<aber>it shouldn't be allowed to produce fonts with such a little difference between two letters... That is very dangerous...
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, we totally need a regulation on font shapes :p
11:40<planetmaker>72dot size. Everywhere.
11:43<@Belugas>the world would be a better place if everything was standardized. one money, one langage, one measure system, one god or many, for what it's worth...
11:44-!-DJNekkid [~thomas@static128-249.adsl.no] has joined #openttd
11:46*Rubidium would vote for no gods
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>one time zone! :p
11:46*Belugas votes for both suggestions!
11:47<aber>i would say first attack britain...
11:47<@Rubidium>asking (and getting!) forgiveness from god for killing someone is just plain stupid
11:47*fjb supports Rubidium.
11:47<+glx>killing in name of god is worse
11:47<Eddi|zuHause>that's only a symptom, not the cause
11:48<@Belugas>killing or fighting in name of anyone/anything is bad as hell
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>if there were no religions, people'd find other reasons to kill...
11:48<+glx>like petrol ?
11:48<aber>haha, i believe thats not the only reason...
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11:49<@Rubidium>don't forgets the WMD (ways of mass deception)
11:49<aber>... the biggest chance to get killed is from your own wife or husband...
11:50<@Rubidium>aber: lies... it's your parents
11:50<aber>better get the cap back on the toothpaste...
11:51<@Rubidium>oh, if you need to think about that then it's already way too late to reduce the chance of getting killed
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12:49<SpComb>gathers: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=867566#p867566
12:49<SpComb>gathers: some autosep questions
12:52<gathers>SpComb, thanks, I'll have a look at it later
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13:06<SpComb>btw, is the one-way road crash something that might be fixed in trunk post-r19387?
13:06<@Rubidium>might, but I don't remember such a crash being reported
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13:23<andythenorth>anything interesting happened?
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13:27<@Rubidium>depends what's interesting and what timescale your speaking about
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13:31<Jolteon>In the time you went, Rubidium declared war on orudge, orudge nuked Rubidium, a treaty was signed, we all witnessed it, andythenorth.
13:31<andythenorth>Rubidium: timescale: galactic?
13:35<@Rubidium>in that case... there was a huge rock that was impacted by a big rock, that made a mess resulting in two rocks spinning around eachother. Then more (much) smaller rocks hit the rocks.
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19525 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt greek.txt ukrainian.txt):
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: czech - 5 changes by Harlequin
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: greek - 1 changes by fumantsu
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: ukrainian - 4 changes by onufryk
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14:02<andythenorth>I find it bizarre that people are so protective over graphics.
14:02<andythenorth>but then no-one has horribly ripped off any of mine yet :o
14:03*andythenorth GPL la la la la la la la
14:03<frosch123>maybe they are too ugly :p
14:03<andythenorth>he
14:04<frosch123>but yes, i also wondered why so many keep them that restrictive
14:05<andythenorth>I make mine GPL because I want to be *sure* that other people can use them in a proper way.
14:05<@Rubidium>frosch123: because they "steal" from Simon
14:05<blathijs>Perhaps the difference between artists and coders is that coders are used to using other people's code, whereas artists are used to creating their own artwork
14:05<blathijs>e.g., artists aren't used to being on the receiving side
14:05<andythenorth>I want to wade into that argument, especially against mb
14:06<andythenorth>blathijs: exactly. the code is given freely, for the good of the game. I find it offensive that mb can say a "coder" can't see how an artist is 'special'
14:06<planetmaker>missing a 'not'? ;-)
14:07<andythenorth>so tempted.....I don't want to knock Irwe's thread massively OT though :o
14:07<andythenorth>meh internet dramas
14:07<George>hi
14:07<andythenorth>hi George :)
14:07<George>What's the sprites limit in OTTD?
14:07-!-SmatZ__ [~Miranda@88.146.75.216] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:07<frosch123>for what sprites?
14:07<George>Trains and wagons
14:08*Rubidium makes a safe bet: you computer's memory
14:08<frosch123>i guess your memory limit
14:08<planetmaker>:-)
14:08<George>1gb?
14:08<George>;)
14:08<@Rubidium>@calc 1024*1048576/2**24
14:08<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 64
14:09<George>64 trains?
14:09<@Rubidium>so the sprites may be at most 64 bytes (including metadata) to hit the limit (if it's 16 million)
14:09<Jupix>andythenorth: I've got two answers to your question, the first is you should read over some of Sergej_S:s threads (again?), and the second is that in the 32bpp field at least, it's not the artists running for absolute clarity in matters of licensing, it's the administrators, who want to make sure stuff that ends up in a baseset conversion doesn't have a questionable legal background
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14:11<George>so, 16 mln trains?
14:12-!-sparr [~kvirc@adsl-232-70-82.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:12<frosch123>well, more than you can build in one game
14:12<planetmaker>George, you can 'only' define 64k vehicle ids.
14:12<andythenorth>Jupix: I've never read a thread by Sergej_S....what am I missing?
14:12<frosch123>planetmaker: but everyone of them can look different every day :p
14:13<planetmaker>:-D
14:13<planetmaker>the polymorphic train fleet
14:13<@Rubidium>George: no, 16-ish million sprites
14:13<frosch123>andythenorth: some weird old guy, putting random 32bpp graphics into ottd screenshots
14:14<andythenorth>I don't go in the 3sbpp forum :P
14:14<Jupix>andythenorth: when artists posted (preliminary) preview renders of their work, he took them without permission to create large "megapacks" of his own ... and did a bloody poor job of it, too, most artists were royally pissed and he was banned as a result
14:14<Jupix>also, he didn't speak english
14:14<@Rubidium>but given normal sprite sizes you can't hit that limit before running out of memory on < 4GB machines
14:14<blathijs>Do I need the newest grfcodec to build opengfx, or can I use r2294 as well?
14:15<planetmaker>blathijs, I think it should be fine
14:15<blathijs>planetmaker: k, thanks
14:15<@Rubidium>blathijs: 2294 should work, just check the md5 checksums (though the make check thingy is currently a bit broken)
14:15<andythenorth>Jupix: so do people use the mega packs?
14:15<@Rubidium>blathijs: in other words, new OpenGFX/OpenSFX versions are due 'soon'
14:16<Jupix>andythenorth: yes, I would imagine anyone who wants 32bpp to "just work" uses them, dl'ing and installing individual tars is... so 2007.
14:17<andythenorth>Jupix: where are they distributed?
14:17<Jupix>in the 32bpp forums. :D
14:17<blathijs>Rubidium: Uh? I don't see how those remarks relate. Also, I thought that yesterday's OpenGFX release would be the last one before 1.0 at least?
14:18<George>Rubidium: Thank you
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14:20<@Rubidium>blathijs: yeah, but I really hope (for the sake of getting the downstream packaging right) that there'll be a new OpenGFX; there will be a new OpenSFX
14:20<andythenorth>Jupix: so the forums are used to distribute material which infringes copyright? easily solved I would think
14:20<@Rubidium>andythenorth: yeah, take down zernebok!
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14:21<blathijs>Rubidium: What is there to get right?
14:21<@Rubidium>blathijs: the workings of "make check"
14:21<blathijs>Ah
14:21<blathijs>right
14:21<Jupix>andythenorth: oh, in sergey's case they were presented on nearly unusable websites, hosted on some nameless russian servers that were dead slow
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14:22<andythenorth>Jupix: hmmm....I don't have a good answer to that particular case :o
14:22<blathijs>Rubidium: What's the idea behind that? When building the source tarball, the md5's of the official builds are included?
14:22<Jupix>andythenorth: yeah... he didn't have either, apart from "if you have better hosting space to donate, go right ahead"
14:23<Jupix>in broken babelfish english, of course :D
14:23<@Rubidium>blathijs: yes; the content server stuff depends on the md5 checksums, so if they mismatch you might get into a situation where it'll continuously think that you don't have the newest OpenGFX/OpenSFX yet
14:24<@Rubidium>blathijs: and then it'll download it again, just to find out it has two sets with the same version and then it 'ignores' one with a big chance that the 'wrong' one is ignored (the wrong one is the one that isn't on the content server)
14:24*andythenorth considers starting yet-another-use-the-GPL-forum-bunfight, just for entertainment :P
14:25<@Rubidium>andythenorth: just search for sets that include your GPL-ed graphics (or derivates of your graphics). Then you can simply claim that the set is also GPL :)
14:26<andythenorth>:)
14:26<planetmaker>hihi :-)
14:26<aber>GPL is a strange thing...
14:26<@Rubidium>and for those who haven't realised it yet... if you use OpenGFX sprites to base your work on :)
14:26<frosch123>hmm, maybe if you use the affero gpl you might claim getting the source of the server in case it runs them
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14:27<andythenorth>GPL is a beautiful thing :)
14:28<andythenorth>When I start making graphics I decided not to worry about people pillaging them
14:28<andythenorth>it's going to happen
14:28<planetmaker>probably.
14:28<blathijs>Bah, building Debian packages is not working right now, it seems my build root points to ries.debian.org, which is broken atm
14:29<blathijs>Let's just do other stuff, then :-)
14:29*andythenorth can't stand whining 'artists'
14:29-!-Goulp [~Goulp@main.goulp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:29<andythenorth>unless they are whining about industry placement issues
14:29<@Rubidium>blathijs: just let it point to some other server :)
14:29<@Rubidium>should be relatively easy
14:29<blathijs>Rubidium: Its only a few commands, but I can't be bothered right now.. :-)
14:29<planetmaker>meh
14:30<andythenorth>planetmaker: if I prep a FIRS 0.1.1 bug fix, do you have a one-shot way to do the release yet?
14:30<blathijs>I'll try again when it is back up (also, waiting a few days with grfcodec makes sure that the current version propagates to testing)
14:30<planetmaker>andythenorth, "one-shot-way" is something I wouldn't use on a release ;-)
14:31<andythenorth>two shot?
14:31<planetmaker>but in principle: hg tag 0.1.1
14:31<planetmaker>hg up 0.1.1
14:31<planetmaker>make bundle_zip
14:31<planetmaker>and upload that to bananas
14:31<planetmaker>hg up
14:31<planetmaker>afterwards your repo
14:31<planetmaker>devzone will need the files, though
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14:48<Ryand-Smith>put it this way
14:48<Ryand-Smith>Breakdowns are semi realistic for new units
14:48<Ryand-Smith>as that I feel is the period when you are breaking in the unit, you will find odd problems
14:49<Ryand-Smith>But after the first few years or so they should stop
14:49<OwenS>Or reliability goes up exponentially
14:50<OwenS>And after a while maintanance just becomes more expensive?
14:50<Ryand-Smith>Yes
14:50<Ryand-Smith>that represents how you can't find parts for old things, and they just wear down
14:51<Ryand-Smith>hell, they replaced the GG1s due to parts (yay using PCBs for air filters)
14:51<Ryand-Smith>However, some companies use busses for 30 years instead of the 20 or so they were meant to last, and they do break down more often then younger units
14:52<OwenS>By PCBs I presume you mean Polychlorinated Bithingies, not Printec Circuit Boards :p
14:52<Ryand-Smith>That's the one
14:52<Ryand-Smith>I don't even think the GG1 had that kind of electronics
14:52<OwenS>'round here companies run some busses around ~30 years old...
14:53<OwenS>You can tell as they have XYZ 000 old style registrations...
14:53<Ryand-Smith>I'm in NJ, we ideally would replace the 30 year old flexible busses, BUT there isn't money and the new electric ones ...
14:53<Ryand-Smith>they don't work in rain very well
14:54<Ryand-Smith>the sad thing is the company who made the busses went under so they have to get people to make parts just for them
14:54<aber>in old europe we use still gas in busses...
14:55<Ryand-Smith>We have fancy LNG busses
14:55<Ryand-Smith>and flywheels
14:55<Ryand-Smith>but mostly diesel fuel, with some diesel electric prototypes
14:56<aber>gas is cleaner and way more fun if it explodes...
14:56<Ryand-Smith>LNG or gasoline?
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14:57<aber>ahh, had to wiki that. LNG :)
14:58<Ryand-Smith>LNG is nice to make clean yes
15:11<andythenorth>FIRS 0.1.1 is released
15:11<andythenorth>so I've shipped something, now can I go and argue with the artists?
15:11<andythenorth>:P
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15:33<DJ_Nekkid>yey, KillBill vol.1 on TV :D
15:37<Jolteon>ORLY?
15:37<@Rubidium>NOTV!
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15:43<sparr>with only low-speed trains, trucks will almost always win a rating war, no?
15:44<frosch123>then use ships
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15:45<sparr>ships aren't very useful in most situations
15:46<andythenorth>ships are rubbish
15:46<andythenorth>they can't go on train tracks
15:46<andythenorth>they can't go on roads
15:46<andythenorth>they can't fly
15:46<andythenorth>*stupid* ships :P
15:47<andythenorth>lets cut them out of the game. we could fit more trains in that way
15:47<Singaporekid>we could fit the trains on the ships
15:47<andythenorth>someone told me recently OTTD is a train game anyway
15:47<andythenorth>new track type: 'ships'
15:48<sparr>you know that's not what i meant
15:48<Singaporekid>I would play with that grf
15:48<@Rubidium>10:24 < Ammler> someone is banned from openttd
15:48<andythenorth>5mph, it's a bridge that only draws sprites under the train, sprites are 'train ferry'
15:50<@Rubidium>ships have an insane parallel loading capability
15:50<andythenorth>sparr: I know that's not what you meant ;)
15:51<@Rubidium>http://rbijker.net/openttd/misc/mine.png <- they're pretty useful
15:54<andythenorth>he, my games are almost orthogonal to the one in that screenshot
15:55<sparr>Rubidium: they are useful if you are near water, which is not usually
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15:57<@Rubidium>andythenorth: my goal was to move a million pieces of cargo per year
15:58<andythenorth>did you achieve it?
15:58<DJ_Nekkid>and on a 256^2 map?
15:58<@Rubidium>andythenorth: yes
15:58<@Rubidium>DJ_Nekkid: no, 128x128
15:58<DJ_Nekkid>damn!
16:00<sparr>do pax count?
16:00<andythenorth>my current game: quite near water quite often :)
16:00<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/current_game.png
16:01<@Rubidium>for comparison, 1 million pieces of cargo moved per year is somewhat commun in the more recent openttdcoop games, which use a 512x1024-ish map for that
16:01<@Rubidium>s/commun/common/
16:02<theholyduck>andythenorth, atleast you dont have creeping-networkitis
16:02<theholyduck>i cant build a network anymore without planning atleast 3 lines in each direction
16:02<theholyduck>and starting designing more and more shit before anything even works
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16:03<andythenorth>theholyduck: ship early, ship often
16:03<andythenorth>do something, get the benefit, do some more stuff :)
16:04<andythenorth>ideally using ships :P
16:04<theholyduck>andythenorth, well the last time i tried that,
16:04<theholyduck>i ended up with this 60x60 tile area, that was my merging point for everything
16:04<theholyduck>and every time i tried to do a change, i had to spend 30 minutes fixing it
16:05<theholyduck>rapidly expanding a existing network can lead to pain and suffering
16:05<andythenorth>so can rapidly expanding a real business :P
16:06<theholyduck>andythenorth, well, problem with ships is, they're not very cost efficent
16:06<theholyduck>you can actually design a ship based system that looses you money
16:06<@Rubidium>just don't hurry that much; it'll probably reduce the pain and suffering of RSI and such
16:06<theholyduck>wich i found out the hardway
16:06<andythenorth>theholyduck: well that's just bad game tactics :)
16:06<theholyduck>andythenorth, no, just ships being slow
16:07<theholyduck>andythenorth, basicly, my original design called for ships getting oil from all over and bringing it to a central drop site
16:07<andythenorth>my current game: trams, narrow gauge, standard gauge, ships, and some trucks somewhere
16:07<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/Drundingstone_1.png
16:07<theholyduck>but this plan actually lost money due the ships and then trains costing more to run than i earned from the oil
16:07<PeterT>andythenorth: w00t
16:07<PeterT>andythenorth: nice drawings
16:08<theholyduck>so i had to decentralize the whole thing
16:08<theholyduck>with multiple drop-points
16:08<theholyduck>so that the slowness of the boats didnt kill my profit margins
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16:09<theholyduck>after that i became naturally distrustful of boats
16:10<andythenorth>Ships + trucks + trams + planes.
16:10<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/Drundingstone_2.png
16:11<andythenorth>the planes fly in engineering supplies, trucks on a feeder system take them to the sand pit
16:11<andythenorth>trams haul the sand to the dock
16:11<theholyduck>i dont like planes, ship and trucks for 1 more reason
16:11<theholyduck>its like playing connect the dots
16:11<andythenorth>??
16:11<theholyduck>with planes its just, build more airports, build more planes, set up routes, and go
16:12<theholyduck>theres no "creativity" invovled
16:13<theholyduck>with a trains you can build complex network with signaling, schedules, priorities and what not
16:14<andythenorth>theholyduck: try using multiple transport types with transfer orders
16:14<andythenorth>getting your supply chain working is a whole other challenge then
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16:14<theholyduck>yeah,
16:15<theholyduck>but people who play planes only
16:15<theholyduck>confuse me
16:15<theholyduck>same with point to point train network people
16:15<andythenorth>me too, but I guess they enjoy it
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16:18<Terkhen>andythenorth: the Ishizuchi is missing a wagon when refitted to 4 wagons (HEQS r307): http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/screenshots/heqs_industrial_trams.png
16:19<andythenorth>Terkhen: did you build HEQS yourself? :)
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16:20<Terkhen>no, I downloaded a nightly just after you announced FIRS 0.1.1
16:20<andythenorth>ah ok
16:20<andythenorth>well I'll commit a fix now
16:21<Terkhen>okay :)
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16:22<andythenorth>Terkhen: the fix won't show up in the nightly yet. You could check out and build, or I can pm you the grf
16:23<Ammler>andythenorth: or release HEQS :-)
16:24<Ammler>or are there more trams to come?
16:24<andythenorth>nah, I'm waiting on some more sprites for the tram wagons
16:24<andythenorth>hopefully Dan MacK is sending me some :)
16:27<Terkhen>I'll try to compile it :P
16:27<andythenorth>do you need instructions?
16:30<Terkhen>I remember seeing a howto somewhere
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16:35<Terkhen>no, I can't find it
16:36<andythenorth>Terkhen: checkout.... hg clone http://mz.openttdcoop.org/hg/firs
16:37<andythenorth>then 'make'
16:38<Terkhen>it is already being cloned, but I thought it would need grfcodec
16:39<andythenorth>ah yes, I already have all that stuff :o
16:39<Ammler>Terkhen: you cygwin or mingw/msys
16:39<andythenorth>I can pm you the grf
16:40<Ammler>hmm, mingw/msys might not work anymore...
16:40<Ammler>need*
16:41<Terkhen>I'm using debian
16:42<Terkhen>andythenorth: don't worry, I was thinking about setting this up already
16:42<@Rubidium>Terkhen: sid, testing or unstable?
16:42<@Rubidium>s/un//
16:42<@Rubidium>because in sid nforenum and grfcodec can be apt-get installed
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16:45<andythenorth>meh. no diagonal roads :(
16:45<Terkhen>stable with 2.6.32 from backports, I was using testing until a few days ago when it died
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16:46<Terkhen>that will be very handy :)
16:46<@Rubidium>it died?
16:47-!-PeterT_ is now known as PeterT^^
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16:47<andythenorth>meh, can't bridge over stations
16:48<Terkhen>just after GRUB it complained about different UUIDs, I don't remember the exact error message
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16:49*andythenorth tunnels under a station, against all good sense
16:49<@Rubidium>Terkhen: I know the ftp-master kinda died, but it doesn't look like any important packages are broken (mostly armel stuff)
16:49<@Rubidium>Terkhen: oh, grub not doing its thing is nasty
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16:51<Terkhen>I followed a few tutorials without success before installing again, simpler when I can back up everything easily
16:52<Terkhen>probably an habit picked up from trying to fix windows too many times
16:53<andythenorth>this is now starting to get...complicated :P
16:53<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/Drundingstone_3.png
16:58<planetmaker>nice tunnels, andythenorth - what are they?
16:58<andythenorth>probably NA Road Set I gues
16:58<andythenorth>s
16:58<@Rubidium>stolen ofcourse!
16:58<planetmaker>:-D
16:58<@Rubidium>:)
16:58<Terkhen>andythenorth: success :)
16:59<andythenorth>Terkhen: good
16:59<OwenS>Such tunnels would be more awesome if we could build on them :-(
17:02<andythenorth>Terkhen: how is cargo/industry-alphabetising going?
17:05<Terkhen>the fund industry window is already sorted too
17:05<Terkhen>cargo sorting is stopped until I recover from DST
17:09<andythenorth>:)
17:09<@Rubidium>yay for DST saving power...
17:09<@Rubidium>already lost a full working day...
17:10<__ln__>any unitedstatesians present?
17:11<PeterT>Yes
17:11<Terkhen>yeah, I doubt that whatever is saved in power makes up for making everybody feel horrible for days
17:11*Terkhen suspects that tomorrow he will crawl to the kitchen for coffee again
17:12<__ln__>ok; question: if you mention "Penn & Teller" to a random unitedstatesian, what's the probability that he/she won't know whom you are talking about?
17:12<PeterT>who is Penn & Teller?
17:12<__ln__>right
17:12<PeterT>:-P
17:12<OwenS>I was gonna say "I can't decide if PeterT is bullshitting or not"
17:12<PeterT>magicians?
17:12-!-Gforce-laptop [~Gforce@84-104-210-56.cable.quicknet.nl] has joined #openttd
17:12<__ln__>magicians
17:12<PeterT>OwenS: No, he isn't
17:13<PeterT>lol
17:13<PeterT>looks interesting
17:13<PeterT>why would a magician need a MySpace?
17:13<OwenS>They have Twitters too..
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17:18<@Belugas>bye all
17:18*andythenorth uses trams for everything
17:18<@Rubidium>night Belugas
17:18<PeterT>good night, Belugas
17:18<@Belugas>night too Rubidium :)
17:19<@Belugas>and u2 PeterT
17:19*Belugas is off
17:19<PeterT>:-)
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17:21*andythenorth needs some smaller boats
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17:22<planetmaker>OpenGFX also needs some smaller boats
17:28<Terkhen>the utility vessel is not small enough?
17:28<andythenorth>not for delivering engineering supplies
17:28<andythenorth>I have smaller boats planned but not drawn
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17:29<andythenorth>hmm
17:30<andythenorth>I didn't finish the random production change code for primary industries in FIRS
17:30-!-lewymati [~lewymati@89.230.159.206] has quit []
17:30<andythenorth>turns out that constant stable primary industry production is kind of fun :o
17:40<planetmaker>andythenorth: make it a feature :-)
17:40<planetmaker>might be nice for scenarios
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18:09<Terkhen>good night
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18:16<OwenS`Phone>Is it not my year? Ata errors...
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18:22<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: i've uploaded an attempt at fixing...
18:24<Ammler>stuck trains patch?
18:24-!-Rexxars [~rexxars@188.126.205.150] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:24<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that one
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18:30*PeterT is away: Away
18:30<PeterT>Sorry people
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>yes, you should be.
18:32<OwenS`Phone>Fuck me. OTHER HDD HAS DIED. Seriously!
18:33<OwenS`Phone>This kind of thing... Does not happen...
18:34<OwenS`Phone>So: tomorrow order an Hdd overnight. Then investigate Hitachi hddwarranties
18:34<__ln__>Oh it does. That's why important data is backed up.
18:34<OwenS`Phone>It is :)
18:34<OwenS`Phone>Just the redundant disks died 1 mo apart
18:35<__ln__>I've been thinking about a 3ware raid card for home use, but it's expensiveish.
18:36<__ln__>And yes, it isn't a substitute for backups.
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18:37<OwenS`Phone>Linux softraid. Faster, cheaper, wont kill your data when it dies
18:38<OwenS`Phone>The amount of times ive heard of raid cards killing data has permanently dissuade me from them
18:38<Eddi|zuHause>have a redundant raid card :)
18:38<__ln__>It's a mess when your boot partition gets broken in a software raid.
18:39<OwenS`Phone>Also, hard raid uses pfopetietry disk formats
18:39<__ln__>Besides, Linux softraid doesn't work on Windows 7, to which I switched to two days ago.
18:39<OwenS`Phone>I have cron rsync boot between the devices
18:40<OwenS`Phone>My ideal would be Solaris + zfx + raid z
18:40<__ln__>OwenS`Phone: So you rsync corrupted data from failing disk to another?
18:41<OwenS`Phone>Actually, /boot a folder in the raid copied on to the actual partitoons
18:42<OwenS`Phone>Zfs is better. No faffimng, just one volume
18:44<__ln__>Have you tried recovering from a boot partition (and disk) failure? The BIOS boots from a physical disk, so mirroring doesn't help at that point.
18:45<OwenS`Phone>With zfs both drives get propeely configured for grub to boot from
18:49-!-Rexxars [~rexxars@188.126.205.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:53<__ln__>Still, at minimum, you'll need some manual work to make your system boot from a non-default disk.
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18:59<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: shouldn't you put /boot on a different disk then, so you have at least a minimal system when everything goes wrong?
18:59<Eddi|zuHause>the kernel doesn't change that often, you can back that up in other ways
19:02<__ln__>Maybe... Though that asymptotically approaches a "mess".
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22:17<Eddi|zuHause>so... apparently OpenSSL beat us for 1.0 :p
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---Logclosed Tue Mar 30 00:00:12 2010