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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-04-04

---Logopened Sun Apr 04 00:00:29 2010
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00:46<@Rubidium>Mazur: the number of people that can be impressed is quite low if 95% is sleeping
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01:05<Eddi|zuHause>what is sleep? :p
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02:04<CIA-6>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r19557 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r19502): Missed conversion to checking temporary data broke rail type setting upon changing traction type.
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02:12<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/7547129/Council-condemned-over-Britains-shortest-cycle-lane.html <-- this sounds like they missed the date :p
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03:18<George>Eddi|zuHause: Eddi, there is no frosch around, cound you ask him about http://bugs.openttd.org/task/2521 ?
03:19<George>I hope it would be not too hard, but I need it a lot :)
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03:20<andythenorth>George: are you planning to use sloped sprites to improve appearance of trucks on hills?
03:22<George>yes
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03:45<andythenorth>morning
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03:48<Eddi|zuHause>George: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/curve_info_fs2521.diff does what you want?
03:53<George>I hope yes
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04:08<Eddi|zuHause>... hm... why can't i login to FS?
04:09<@Rubidium>because you need to sleep?
04:10<@Rubidium>for what it's worth: works fine for me
04:10<Eddi|zuHause>it says "username or password not known" or something like that...
04:10<@Rubidium>when did you last login there?
04:11<Eddi|zuHause>couple months ago?
04:11<@Rubidium>couple as in more like almost 10?
04:11<Eddi|zuHause>no, almost certainly less
04:11<@Rubidium>so you've merged you openttd accounts already
04:12<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that definitely
04:12<@Rubidium>then you're probably using the wrong password
04:12<Eddi|zuHause>i wouldn't know which other password i would have used...
04:13<@Rubidium>●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●● <- that's your hashed password :)
04:14<Eddi|zuHause>great :p
04:14-!-ajmiles2 [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
04:14<Eddi|zuHause>is there a "lost password" function?
04:14<Eddi|zuHause>i don't find it
04:14-!-Wizzleby [~wizzleby@pool-108-2-18-119.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has joined #openttd
04:14<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: http://account.openttd.org/en/recover
04:17-!-Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
04:17<Eddi|zuHause>ah... i found out...
04:18<Eddi|zuHause>... why would i have used THAT password?!?
04:18-!-Terkhen [~Terkhen@173.Red-88-25-110.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #openttd
04:18<Terkhen>good morning
04:20<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: did you make the password choice or did the cat make the choice?
04:20<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i did not have the cats 10 months ago :p
04:20<@Rubidium>then the cat changed your password more recently
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04:29<Eddi|zuHause>most likely stuff about password strength constraints...
04:30<Eddi|zuHause>why does FS not switch to DST?
04:31<Eddi|zuHause>and i can't change it myself, because it says "must fill out e-mail or jabber field"
04:31<Eddi|zuHause>but there is no such field...
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04:59<Alberth>is the time of a post in FS of any relevance?
04:59<Alberth>month + year is sufficient I think
05:00<planetmaker>good morning
05:00<Alberth>good morning pm
05:00<ragzid>morning
05:00<planetmaker>and happy Easter!
05:00-!-Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
05:02*andythenorth is pondering
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05:05*Alberth gives andythenorth the solution: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter
05:06<andythenorth>Alberth: strange, that wiki page doesn't contain the answer to 'what is the point of food and goods'
05:06<ragzid>what about "42"?
05:06<Terkhen>moving stuff to the center of a city
05:07<Alberth>my telepathic powers are failing..... again <sigh/>
05:07<andythenorth>why bother?
05:07<andythenorth>why bother moving goods / food to cities?
05:07<planetmaker>andythenorth: food makes arctic cities grow
05:07<planetmaker>in the first place
05:07<andythenorth>yup
05:08<Alberth>why is food/goods different than eg coal?
05:08<andythenorth>I have a FIRS problem
05:08<andythenorth>one chain dominates all the others
05:09<Terkhen>in theory it is more complicated to move cargo into cities (you have to use road vehicles), but in practice everybody builds a distant truck station inside of the city
05:09<Terkhen>andythenorth: steel?
05:09<andythenorth>steel -> engineering supplies
05:09<andythenorth>well, coal / iron / scrap -> steel -> engineering supplies
05:09<andythenorth>all the farming chain is kind of a dead duck
05:09<Terkhen>indeed, that's always the first chain I build
05:10<andythenorth>incidentally the wiki *still* spreads the myth that goods increases town growth :o
05:10<andythenorth>http://wiki.openttd.org/Town#Climate-related_Conditions
05:10-!-lugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8df45.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
05:10<planetmaker>it's constantly edited into it again, I guess
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05:12<andythenorth>in temperate goods and food are....unsatisfactory.
05:12<planetmaker>actually... the whole section(s) on town growth there is completely wrong...
05:13*andythenorth thinks about something much discussed by me and Dan MacK
05:13<andythenorth>ports which represent 'import/export' from the map
05:13<andythenorth>so deliver food, get iron ore in return etc
05:13<andythenorth>works well in railroad tycoon
05:14<planetmaker>andythenorth: but don't make it part of core FIRS. Make it an add-on
05:15<andythenorth>yup
05:15<andythenorth>Terkhen: are you hauling any farm cargos?
05:16<Ammler>good morning to you :-)
05:16<planetmaker>hm... can anyone give me a hint which svn command to use in order to get the 1.0.0 tag?
05:16<Ammler>http://imagebin.ca/view/RdSkCpk2.html <-- pbs bug?
05:17<Ammler>svn sw svn://svn.openttd.org/tag/1.0.0
05:17<planetmaker>ah... tag
05:17<Ammler>tags
05:17<Ammler>typo :-)
05:17<Terkhen>yes, but they are secondary
05:18<Terkhen>the dairy produces a lot of food when receiving both cargos, though :)
05:19<Ammler>the penalty system of pbs is sometimes a bit too sensitive
05:19<andythenorth>hmm...I should deliver some manufacturing supplies to my dairy
05:19<andythenorth>Terkhen which climate are you playing?
05:19<planetmaker>interesting situation there, Ammler :-)
05:20<Terkhen>subtropical
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05:20<andythenorth>I think subtropic is the most fun in terms of town growth
05:21<Terkhen>that's why, yes :)
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05:22<andythenorth>how's about a patch so that goods *does* affect town growth?
05:24<planetmaker>not in principle. Rather a patch which allows newgrf definition of cargo(s) which affect town growth
05:25<planetmaker>that way it sounds rather like what fits conceptiually into the game ;-)
05:25<andythenorth>I wanted to suggest that, but I thought it might be too much of a pony :)
05:25<planetmaker>But it'd be nice :-)
05:25<andythenorth>is town growth properly the domain of house newgrfs though?
05:27<planetmaker>seems it's mentioned in the action0cargos
05:27<Terkhen>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Action0Cargos#Substitute_type_and_multiplier_for_town_growth_18_19_ <--- I don't know if this does what you want
05:27<planetmaker>properties 18,19
05:27<planetmaker>lol? Is it already possible?
05:27<andythenorth>not for temperate
05:28<planetmaker>uhm... not? The description only says "like (...) in tropical"
05:29<planetmaker>rather "as"
05:29<planetmaker>but maybe you're right.
05:30<andythenorth>might be a nice thing to extend....
05:31<planetmaker>very much so, yes
05:31*andythenorth wonders where the code is for town acceptance
05:31*planetmaker makes a note in the v8 newgrf thingy :-P
05:31<planetmaker>town*
05:31<planetmaker>or newgrf* :-P
05:31<andythenorth>town_cmd.cpp?
05:32<planetmaker>grep -Ri "affect" src/*
05:32<planetmaker>that's how I'd start ;-)
05:32<Alberth>andythenorth: isn't it simple more than x/8 acceptance in the station rectangle? (I think x=7, but don't know for sure)
05:32<Terkhen>grep for act_food
05:32<andythenorth>yep, it's in town_cmd.cpp
05:33<andythenorth>looks currently simple
05:33<Alberth>OpenTTD is a simple game :p
05:33<Terkhen>IIRC it was defined by some hardcoded values
05:34<andythenorth> if (TilePixelHeight(t->xy) >= GetSnowLine() && t->act_food == 0 && t->population > 90)
05:34<andythenorth>act_food is reset monthly
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05:35<andythenorth>making that controllable by newgrf would be rather more complicated?
05:35<andythenorth>how many growth cargos could sensibly be allowed?
05:36<andythenorth>3? 16? 256?
05:36<Terkhen>4, 8
05:37<andythenorth>4 would be plenty
05:37<andythenorth>unless anyone wants 'ridiculously hard town growth newgrf'
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05:37*andythenorth imagines having to deliver 8 cargos *every* month for growth
05:38<andythenorth>maybe some people would like it :P
05:39<Terkhen>andythenorth: http://wiki.openttd.org/Peter1138/Towngrowth_Challenge (check the discussion too)
05:41<andythenorth>he he...looks like quite a lot of us have tried to solve the 'power' problem
05:41<andythenorth>I know pikka has thought about it too :)
05:42<DanMacK>'power' problem?
05:42<andythenorth>lots of players think there should be a role for electricity
05:42<andythenorth>I have one in mind, it's evil :)
05:44*Terkhen is ignoring the power plant in his last game
05:45<andythenorth>Terkhen: me too
05:45<andythenorth>Terkhen: if all industry production halved without power plants, would you ignore the power plant then?
05:47<Terkhen>I'll have a single coal / fuel oil truck delivering to it to prevent its closure
05:47<DanMacK>Oooooooooh
05:48<DanMacK>Andy, that is evil
05:48<andythenorth>yes...but easily gamed as Terkhen pointed out :)
05:51<andythenorth>Terkhen: and if you needed one power plant for every three industries?
05:53<DanMacK>I'd say go every five... But if you're doing that, prior to power plants, shouldn't factories and such accept coal?
05:54<Terkhen>FIRS has too much industries already, I doubt that many power plants would fit in small maps (I'm playing 128x128 or 256x256, I don't remember which size)
05:54<andythenorth>I think there are some problems with this idea :)
05:54*andythenorth thinks about town growth instead
05:56<Terkhen>not delivering to power plants stops all towns from growing?
05:57*ragzid is going to commit suicide because of MS-SQL
05:58<andythenorth>Terkhen: I don't know how to implement that in newgrf :)
05:58<andythenorth>except by creating a town set and checking station delivered cargos or something
05:59-!-NicO_ParkeR [~user@seg75-4-82-228-60-23.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #openttd
05:59<NicO_ParkeR>hi
05:59<Terkhen>I don't think that newgrfs can change town growth in game
05:59<@Rubidium>not yet at least :)
05:59<Alberth>hi NicO_ParkeR
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06:00<NicO_ParkeR>i was wondering, is there any n810 port of openttd?
06:00-!-Biolunar_ is now known as Biolunar
06:01<OwenS>NicO_ParkeR: Doesn't the N810 just use X11?
06:01<NicO_ParkeR>yep, but arm proc
06:01<OwenS>ARM is supported. It should compile out of the box with the right dependencies
06:01<NicO_ParkeR>i havent seen an arm compile yet
06:01<planetmaker>you could just try to compile...
06:01<OwenS>NicO_ParkeR: The S60v3 port is on ARM
06:01<NicO_ParkeR>ok i will d/l source
06:02<NicO_ParkeR>where is the s60 port?
06:03<OwenS>NicO_ParkeR: Its an unofficial port on the forums
06:03<NicO_ParkeR>ok i must check tghat before
06:04<NicO_ParkeR>because i'm not sure i have all the commpiler ttools
06:04<NicO_ParkeR>installed on my n810
06:04<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/city_growth
06:04<OwenS>Generally you would cross compile to it
06:06<Terkhen>hmmm... I should try to understand callbacks again
06:06<NicO_ParkeR>brb, trying to find a port
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06:11<planetmaker>andythenorth: I'll add the proposals straight to my nfov8 text I prepare ;-)
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06:13<NicO_ParkeR>there is a port, but outdated
06:13<NicO_ParkeR>i think i must wait a little
06:14<andythenorth>planetmaker: :)
06:14<NicO_ParkeR>the thing is that they maemo-ized the game
06:14<NicO_ParkeR>for shortcuts, tiny screen etc...
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06:15<NicO_ParkeR>So compile it myself wouldn't be a good idea
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06:16<NicO_ParkeR>i'll post something on maemo.org
06:16<NicO_ParkeR>but 1.0 on n810 will be really cool!
06:17<NicO_ParkeR>thanks for your help folks
06:17<NicO_ParkeR>have a good sunday!
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06:30<planetmaker>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/documents/15 <-- an extension on the collection of ideas as started by frosch on NFO version 8
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06:34<Alberth>planetmaker: 5e is about tags/keywords?
06:37<planetmaker>Alberth: for example, yes.
06:38<planetmaker>I didn't elaborate too much on 5c ... e as it's already discussed by frosch in his document I gave as 'further reading' for 5)
06:38<planetmaker>and I didn't want to paste that whole text file there ;-)
06:41<planetmaker>and frosch mentions your keyword/tags. Which I think is a good thing to have
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06:42<Mazur>Morning.
06:43<PeterT>good morning
06:44<Alberth>great, can't wait :D
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07:03<Fuchs82>yayyyyyyyyyyy, I just read about the 1.0.0 release!!! :-D
07:03<Fuchs82>Congrats!!!!! I'm so impressed!!!
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07:03*Fuchs82 jumps around
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07:22<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r19558 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix [FS#3730]: Window::OnResize() was not always called while resizing a window.
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07:39<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r19559 /trunk/src/ (bridge.h bridge_gui.cpp tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: Rename CheckBridge_Stuff() to CheckBridgeAvailability().
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07:44<Eddi|zuHause><Ammler> http://imagebin.ca/view/RdSkCpk2.html <-- pbs bug? <-- not a bug. cancer. -- besides: pathfinder penalty issue [increase reservation penalty or train length to allow more detour]
07:44<Mazur>Can't believe what I did earlier: went all night last night, even though tired and not sober, changing over signals, without a single crash, this morning, not 5 minutes within resuming I have a pair on top of eachother.
07:44<Mazur>:-)
07:45<Mazur>I guess I was both more lucky and careful last night.
07:46<Eddi|zuHause>scratch the careful :)
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>i was on the brink of mentioning how close you were to a train crash, but i thought let's have him figure that out by himself :p
07:48-!-Terkhen [~Terkhen@173.Red-88-25-110.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ...]
07:52<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, it might be impossible to adjust pbs penalties so they would use the very little detour but without breaking something else ;-)
07:52<Eddi|zuHause>that is not my problem :)
07:53<Ammler>well, which value woud I need to change in that case?
07:53<Eddi|zuHause>pbs_cross_penalty or so
07:54*andythenorth wonders why lomo is so ugly
07:54<Knuffelwolf>peeps i have a little question
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>i have never played lomo
07:55<Knuffelwolf>when i have build railways with stations and all is there a way to give trains priority? like the slow train needs to wait till the fast train passed it?
07:56<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: me neither...I am reading a thread. Someone has used lomo trams for industrial ng....nice idea :)
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>Knuffelwolf: no. either use timetabling or weird (coop) signal constructions...
08:00<Knuffelwolf>ah thanks will play with signaling then i think
08:09<@peter1138>lomo's palette isn't as varied as ttd's
08:10<@peter1138>there's a lot of greys and browns
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08:14<Alberth>Knuffelwolf: or build two seperate tracks, one for fast trains and one for slow ones
08:15<Knuffelwolf>maybe Alberth but thats not as real life situations
08:15<Eoin>r20000 soon
08:16<PeterT>500 revisions isn't that soon
08:16<Alberth>Knuffelwolf: That would be considered to be a bug in reality :p
08:16<Knuffelwolf>rofl its just how you look at it
08:17<Eoin>PeterT it is
08:19<Mazur>Eddi: I _really_ was very careful last night, at least for gthe first 6 hours of play.
08:20<Mazur>Taking care to change only one block at th time, and not two adjacent ones.
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08:20<Mazur>Doing station exits first.
08:21<Mazur>And only when not in near use.
08:21<Mazur>I.e. behind trains, and not in front.
08:22<Mazur>Selecting the correct signal through the signal popup before each change.
08:23<Alberth>A quicker way is to stop one or two trains, so a piece of track gets empty. Then change the signals, and start the train(s) again.
08:24<Knuffelwolf>not really Alberth seeing we try to build the dutch railway system
08:24<Knuffelwolf>and overtaking happens alot :')
08:24*Mazur is in the Netherlands, too.
08:25<Knuffelwolf>ah mede nederlander :P
08:25<Mazur>Since I at least know the geography, I figured it would be useful when learning the ropes.
08:25<Mazur>Inderdaad.
08:25<Mazur>:-)
08:25<Mazur><-------- Leiden.
08:25*Knuffelwolf zevenaar
08:26<Mazur>So that's where I built my HQ, as well.
08:26<Knuffelwolf>near Arnhem
08:26<Mazur>Ah, thanks, I didn't remember. If I ever knew.
08:26<Knuffelwolf>almost no one knows where it is lmao
08:27<Mazur>Leiden is a tad more known. ;-P
08:27<Knuffelwolf>sure is :') i mean i am almost living in germany lmao
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08:28<Mazur>A real horror spaghetti in my game, I started with a two track station in the North, by hte time I wanted to expand, the city had built all around it.
08:29<Knuffelwolf>oeh really nasty i try to prevent that with comming out the town with enough trackt to grow if needen
08:29<planetmaker>then reduce the town growth speed
08:29<Knuffelwolf>needed*
08:29<Mazur>And I prefer not to demolish unless absolutely needed.
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08:30<Mazur>Planetmaker: Oh, no, it's part of my learning process, next time I'll just start with a bigger station or byu the land around it.
08:31<Mazur>Anyway, on with hte motley, I'm nearly done woth the changeover.
08:32<planetmaker>Mazur: build the station out-of-town and use a bus or tram feeder-service :-)
08:33<planetmaker>the possibilities are endless.
08:33<planetmaker>or just buy the land in front of the streets near your station.
08:33<SpComb>out-of-town train stations are culturally bankrupt
08:33<planetmaker>Then the town cannot expand in that direction
08:34<OwenS>Or just station walk the out-of-town station into the city :p
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08:36*andythenorth considers starting a new Arctic game with variety distribution set to 'very high'.
08:36<andythenorth>nice feature that :)
08:36<andythenorth>I have lost the love for my temperate game :| no town growth challenge
08:37<SpComb>I preferr Arctic maps without variety distribution
08:37<SpComb>seems to form the best maps
08:39<+glx><OwenS> Or just station walk the out-of-town station into the city :p <-- distant join is easier
08:39<@peter1138>it's... random
08:41<andythenorth>plenfingway on sea....seems misnamed? http://tt-foundry.com/misc/misnamed.png
08:41<OwenS>glx: I use station walk to refer to "stations not conjoined" :p
08:41<OwenS>Distant join is the process, a walked station the result
08:43<+glx>but it's not station walk (as you don't need to actually build/remove)
08:45<andythenorth>do towns prefer to locate on flat land?
08:45<andythenorth>I want an arctic map, mountainous, variety very high, with towns above snow line
08:45<andythenorth>can't seem to generate that :o
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08:47<SpComb>andythenorth: yeah, the towns above snow line bit is difficult
08:47<SpComb>make sure you have it set to Smooth or so
08:48<SpComb>I don't like variety distribution at high, last I looked it didn't form any coherent mountain ranges
08:48<SpComb>just a larger number of induvidual little spikes
08:49<andythenorth>SpComb: thanks
08:49<SpComb>it still isn't very good, but at least you get some that way
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08:51<andythenorth>Mountainous, Smoothness = Rough, Variety = None, snowline = 2 produces lots of towns above snowline
08:52<andythenorth>but it's lacking the valleys and passes that Smoothness = Very Rough and Variety = Very High creates :|
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08:54<Mazur>Is there a way ro reduce a station by say one plagtform without demolishing it?
08:55<planetmaker>yes. Use the bulldozer, not the dynamite
08:55<Mazur>Ok, thanks.
08:55<SpComb>andythenorth: try Flat, Variety = None, Smoothness = Smooth
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09:10<andythenorth>Terkhen: if this industry was finished, do you think it would change the gameplay dominance of steel?
09:10<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/industries?economy=everything#engineering_yard
09:14<ddfreyne>how does one set FIRS economies?
09:18<Terkhen>steel would still be more important but I think it would help (and IMO makes more sense gameplay wise than the paper mill)
09:20<Gartral>i agree
09:20<andythenorth>ddfreyne: you can't set economies yet, they're not done :)
09:20<ddfreyne>alrighty :)
09:22<Terkhen>hmm... maybe it should produce something besides engineering supplies
09:23<andythenorth>maybe. It's main purpose is to provide an alternative source of engineering supplies besides the machine shop
09:23<andythenorth>it balances with the fertiliser plant (source of farm supplies only)
09:37<Zuu>Maybe it is time to replace the purpose line of CluelessPlus "Purpose: To play around with the noai framework. - Not to make the next big thing." :-p
09:37<Zuu>Support for all cargos is under way.
09:37<Zuu>Including town -> industry and industry -> town connections.
09:38<Zuu>As the type of node (industry/town) has been abstracted away in the pair-finder.
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09:45<Zuu>hmm, it becomes very intresting trying to figure out if a bus/truck stop belongs to a town or industry and what industry in the load function. The question is if it is at all possible without storing some clues in the save game.
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09:46<Zuu>Especially since sometimes naming stations fails for unknown reasons.
09:47<Zuu>So you can't rely on storing the town/industry id in the station name.
09:48<Zuu>(you could have a word-list with say 200 words if you want to make it prettier, but still store a number there)
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10:19<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r19560 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Bridge build error message should not show the same message twice.
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10:23<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r19561 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Feature: Give more detailed error message when trying to build a too long bridge.
10:24<Zuu>hmm, NoAI 1.0 API do not even have Get/Set Name for AIStation. :-s
10:26<Zuu>Guess I have no other choise than saving ot the save game, which is not really all that good since you then can't recover connections of crashed AIs.
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10:27<Zuu>IMHO, it is much better if the code that builds a connection set the information needed to recover the connections than the save code which will only run if the AI is alive.
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10:41*andythenorth buys a cheese train
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10:54<Zuu>Oh, sorry for my rants about AIStation.GetName being removed, it has only been moved in the 1.0 version of the API.
10:55<Zuu>Though, there is some issue with it still that it fails claiming that thet station name is not unique when it is.
10:59*andythenorth needs to do something about farms
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11:10<andythenorth>no breakdowns also means, no reason to upgrade :o
11:10<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: you forgot to change non-stop behaviour default ;-)
11:11<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: change to what?
11:11<Ammler>so non-stop is default of course
11:11<Eddi|zuHause>why would it?
11:11<Ammler>ok, you are a "special" gamer :-)
11:11<Ammler>but for newbies it would be easier
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: i don't see why it would be...
11:12<Ammler>you don't use non-stop orders?
11:13<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: that's not the point...
11:13<Ammler>I know 1 situation, where it "might" work without non-stop
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11:14<Mazur>Actually, I prefer the default as it is. Speaking as a sample from the great newbie pool.
11:14<Ammler>Mazur: you know the non-stop behaviour?
11:14<Mazur>Yep.
11:15<Ammler>so it is logical for you, that a train should stop on every station it passes?
11:15<Ammler>without adding it to the order list
11:15<Mazur>Default the trains stops at intermediate stations, Non-stop only stops at the listed stations.
11:16<Mazur>Yes, since I started as a passenger Company anyway.
11:17<Ammler>it is easier to set every station to the order than to debug why it does stop, imo.
11:17<Mazur>Speeded things way up instead of having to add each separate station along the way.
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11:17<Ammler>Mazur: it isn't about speed, you can change it with the advanced settings
11:18<Ammler>the issue is that newbies mostly haven't set it
11:18*Zuu wonders why two players can't have the same station names. (yes, I see in the source code that it is so, but it doesn't say why two players are not allowed to have the same name)
11:18<Mazur>Nor have I, if I want an InterCity I add the non-stop per station.
11:19*Zuu decides to add a random number at the end.
11:20<Ammler>I think it is one of the last "default should be original TTD" settings
11:20<Mazur>Is there anything to do when the map has run our of coal? Or will new mines be added automatically?
11:20<Mazur>Ah. I get that.
11:20<Ammler>it doesn't run out of coal, if you service it properly :-)
11:21<Ammler>the more coal you transport the more does it have
11:21<Mazur>Ah, I thought the more you took away, the sooner it depleted.
11:22<Ammler>ECS could do that
11:22<Mazur>Small wonder non of those five mines there survived.
11:22<Ammler>or maypbe PBI too
11:23*andythenorth wonders what probability to set for industries that only appear after a certain date :|
11:23<andythenorth>as none of them have appeared on my map yet
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: anyway, i did not "forget" it, i decided that the default was good as it was
11:23<Mazur>Any way to restart them?
11:24<Alberth>Zuu: if two players each have the same name for a station, how would you do a company merge?
11:24*andythenorth prospects for more mines, because farms are just boring
11:24<Mazur>Or do I just have to wait for if a new one appears?
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: maybe you can have a period where the chance is increased?
11:24<Zuu>Alberth: Good point
11:25<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: probably
11:25<andythenorth>I could set the action 0 probability very high, then let the varaction 2 do the decision....
11:25<andythenorth>I could also check how many are on the map, to make sure one gets built quite early
11:25<andythenorth>interesting
11:25<andythenorth>meanwhile....I have some mines to prospect for :)
11:26*andythenorth wonders about a patch to 'buy the fricking farms, demolish them and strip mine the land'
11:26<Mazur>Andy: can I have a couple of those?
11:26<Mazur>;-)
11:26<andythenorth>mines?
11:26<Mazur>Mines.
11:27<andythenorth>if you've got money, prospect for them
11:27<andythenorth>industry menu -> fund new industry
11:27<Mazur>400 million
11:27<Mazur>Ah, but I only see secondary industries,
11:27<andythenorth>advanced settings -> economy -> industries
11:27<Mazur>Thanks!
11:28<andythenorth>Manual primary industry construction: prospecting / as secondary / off
11:28*andythenorth would like a patch for 'build a new primary industry, use prospecting, and give me a random type'
11:29<andythenorth>also....'make sure it's not a fricking farm, farms suck'
11:29<andythenorth>Terkhen: ^ sounds like a job for you :)
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11:29<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: and you still think that way?
11:29<Terkhen>why is that useful?
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: yes
11:30<Ammler>you should play cargodist :-P
11:30<andythenorth>Terkhen: just for fun. I want some new primary industries to service, but I want an element of chance :)
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: that is a whole different story
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: also that's one of the main (feature) reasons why i think cargodist is not ready for trunk
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11:33<Ammler>IMO, every stop belongs to the order list
11:33-!-Mazur [~mazur@53551A99.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Quit: BRB]
11:33<Ammler>you should also be able to configure stop between
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11:34<Ammler>now, we have the opposite
11:34*peter1138 uses non-non-stop orders
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11:35<Ammler>also the fact that you can't configure the where to stop on those between stations is a missing feature
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11:37<ddfreyne>is there a way to reserve track in a station, so that some train types will always have access?
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>it should probably use the setting for that
11:38<ddfreyne>I supose that requires a separate station
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>ddfreyne: use waypoints
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>ddfreyne: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2024.%20Jan%201951.png
11:41<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: they stop on a station without beeing on the station vehicle list
11:42<Ammler>that is simply wrong
11:42<Ammler>how do you debug such things?
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: wrong or not, how does the opposite make things easier?
11:43*andythenorth has a bug in $someone's code
11:43<andythenorth>industry prop 24
11:44<andythenorth>should set station name. If set to 0, picks any name with Oilfield or Mines
11:44<andythenorth>however FIRS junk yards are setting empty station names
11:44<andythenorth> 24 \w00 // Station name String ID. No special one, but don't use 'mine'.
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11:44<Ammler>why does it need to be easy? It needs to be controllable ;-)
11:45<@peter1138>ammler just plays the game in a very specific way
11:45<Alberth>Ammler: doesn't trunk also stop at any station it encounters (unless non-stop is set)?
11:45<@peter1138>other people don't
11:45<Ammler>and when you would use the non-non-stop only when you don't have other choice, you know why
11:46<@peter1138>i don't assign all stops because i'm not interested in them
11:46<Ammler>but usually it is set because it is default, not because you want it
11:47<Ammler>Alberth: yes, it does, that is the issue we are talking...
11:47<Alberth>So why is that a problem?
11:48<Ammler>peter1138: but not interested doesn't mean, you don't want the train to stop there?
11:48<@peter1138>i want the train to stop there, that's why i built the station
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11:48<Ammler>but how do you know, which trains _do_ stop there?
11:48*andythenorth ponders a canal
11:48<@peter1138>i don't want to have to edit the orders of any route that passes through it just so it stops there
11:48<andythenorth>nope, canals are stupidly expensive
11:49<Alberth>at least those that have the station in their order list
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yeah, it's ridiculous
11:49<@peter1138>why should i care which trains _do_ stop there?
11:49*andythenorth lowers loads of land instead :|
11:50<Ammler>hmm
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>a canal shouldn't be significantly more expensive than a railway track
11:52<@peter1138>whoever set the cost was on crack
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>suggestion: "river" ships can enter any water tile, "ocean" ships can only enter tiles that are not adjacent to a land tile
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>[so ocean ships need at least 3 tile wide canals]
11:54<Chrill>Eddi|zuHause: how will they get to the docks? :P
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>Chrill: they are long enough
11:54<Alberth>river ships take their cargo instead
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>other suggestion: we need "river docks" that can be placed on flat land
11:56<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: suggestion: 'water types'
11:56<andythenorth>newgrf author decides where ships can go
11:56<andythenorth>and at what speed....
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12:09<Eddi|zuHause>"if you're a doctor, why does your box say 'police'?" :p
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12:14<planetmaker>The "vehicle replacement window" is not always dirtied (properly)
12:14<planetmaker>or at least the buttons in the lowest row
12:14-!-Terkhen [~Terkhen@245.69.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:14<planetmaker>and at least for planes, but I guess it goes everywhere
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12:16<kimiko>Eddi|zuHause: hey, no spoilers!
12:16<kimiko>I'm watching the episode once I get home
12:17<kimiko>< sad panda.. no Mac OS X
12:17<kimiko>for OpenTTD anyway
12:17<kimiko>(so can't play OpenTTD while I'm at work :P)
12:19<Zuu>As a unique string I encode a integer value using a base that contains 0-9, a-z, A-Z and some special chars. Now I got the idea to use ':' as 0 and then ')', '|', '(' etc. as 1,2,3,.. to create smilies at the station signs :-)
12:20<Zuu>so 1 becomes :), 2 becomes :|, 3 becomse :( if you have a leading zero.
12:22<Jupix>anyone got any idea how I can append a file to a tar on the command line so that it goes into a directory in the tar that doesn't exist in the actual filesystem?
12:23<Jupix>tried doing it like they suggest here: http://www.gnu.org/software/tar/manual/html_node/directory.html#IDX440
12:23<Jupix>but all I get is file/dir not found
12:24<andythenorth>kimiko: you can compile, or there are compiled OS X binaries in the forums
12:24<kimiko>oh
12:28<kimiko>Does the game end at 2050, or can you chose to continue if you want to?
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12:30<andythenorth>you can choose to continue
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12:31<kimiko>great
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12:38<Alberth>Jupix: that page is about leaving out some directories in the tar, not about adding non-existent ones
12:42<Jupix>try this link: http://www.gnu.org/software/tar/manual/html_section/one.html#SEC117
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12:42*andythenorth wants mixed gauge track
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12:43<Jupix>i'm trying the command "which records the third file in the archive under the name ‘red/cherry’ so that, if the archive is extracted using ‘tar --extract’, the third file will be written in a subdirectory named ‘red’."
12:44<Alberth>you'd need food/red/cherry at the FS then, as I read it.
12:44<Jupix>that's what i'm guessing as well
12:44<Alberth>ie, you make 'food' disappear, just like the previous command
12:45<Jupix>anyways, i have drink/green/cherry in my filesystem and i want food/red/cherry in the tar... any ideas what i should try?
12:46<Jupix>and another thing is that i'm appending, not creating from scratch
12:47<Alberth>http://paste.openttd.org/225473
12:48<Alberth>as i said, you can only make directories disappear, not create new ones
12:48<Alberth>if you want food/red/cherry, that must exist at the FS. with -C you can 'walk' to the right spot to include it
12:49<Jupix>if that's true, then i'm screwed :D
12:50<andythenorth>how could we 'fix' canal construction costs?
12:50<Alberth>why not make a copy, or move the cherry file to food/red/cherry, and symlink from drink/green?
12:51<Jupix>cause if there was a command line switch for it, i wouldn't have to rewrite this part of the whole webapp
12:52<Jupix>funnily enough the "addmodify" function in php's pear module "archive_tar" allows to create directories, only the function doesn't work with GeekToo's 32bpp tar template that i'm trying to append png's into
12:53<Jupix>it works if i create the tar from scratch using archive_tar but then i'm missing the symlinks necessary for openttd
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12:54<Jupix>i was hoping the pear module implementation was based on some sort of "prefix" command line switch in the tar tool
12:54<Jupix>or something else i could replicate on the command line
12:55<mickster04>is there a repo address for the latest version of openttd for karmic ubuntu?
12:55<FauxFaux>Jupix: Go look at the pear module's source?
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12:58*andythenorth has far too much grain and wonders about an ethanol plant
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13:01<Jupix>FauxFaux: less of a pita to re-engineer my own code than to learn how someone else's works and then re-engineer that :)
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13:18<mickster04>is there a repo address for the latest version of openttd for karmic ubuntu?
13:19<Zuu>mickster04: the source code is the same for all versions if that is what you are looking fore.
13:20<Zuu>all operating systems*
13:20<mickster04>i was looking for the sources.list line that i can add so i can get auto updates that are more current than ubuntu ones
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13:21<Zuu>I don't think there is anything like that that OpenTTD has set up. IIRC the only reason why there are special deb files for ubuntu is that there was so many ubuntu users that didn't understand that the deb files at the homepage was for debian.
13:22<Zuu>finger.openttd.org contains version info about what binaries that are available.
13:23<Zuu>Using a curl/wget + sed/grep etc. and openttd -h you can make a shell script that checks if there is a new version and updates. This works best if you just use the linux generic binaries and unzip them in your home dir.
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13:32<Eddi|zuHause>what happened to "openttd auto update"?
13:33<Zuu>I wouldn't recommend it on a linux platform. You might get something out of it using wine but I have't tested that.
13:34<@Rubidium>mickster04: there is no such repository
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13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19562 /trunk/src/lang/ (12 files): (log message trimmed)
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: catalan - 15 changes by arnau
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: croatian - 12 changes by VoyagerOne
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by glx
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
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14:01<planetmaker>Rubidium: I forwarded you an answer from the zlib maintainers wrt FS#3729
14:02<planetmaker>bascially they claim that OpenTTD's default compiler flag -Wundef is the cause
14:02<@Rubidium>-Wundef doesn't apply to stuff in the "system headers"
14:03<planetmaker>hm
14:03<planetmaker>and now?
14:03<@Rubidium>because lzo2's headers are seriously full of undefined macros
14:04<planetmaker>well... I get there a bunch of warnings, too...
14:04<planetmaker>basically about every system type there is not being defined
14:05<@Rubidium>so the headers aren't in the "system headers"
14:05<planetmaker>but I attribute(d) that to my non-standard way of getting lzo2 there
14:05<planetmaker>they are in /opt/local/...
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14:05<planetmaker>that might be the cause then
14:05<@Rubidium>planetmaker: I have no clue (or way to find out exactly) what the "system include" paths are on OS X
14:05<planetmaker> /opt/local should be defined system
14:06<planetmaker>The usual ones actually. Like I have on my suse, too
14:06<planetmaker>But /opt/local might not be a default setting as it's only populated by macports.
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14:07<planetmaker>and that will then also silence the lzo2 stuff. I will look at that :-)
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14:10<@Rubidium>and for what it's worth the CF doesn't complain about lzo2
14:14<planetmaker>well, there I didn't wonder as I hand-installed the stuff - I attributed that to me putting things somewhere wrongly. But I couldn't so far be bothered. But with zlib I did the right thing [TM] and wondered
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14:23<erani>really have to mention that it was truly a clever idea to release 1.0.0 on april's fool day :)
14:24<PeterT>Rubidium is clever
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>it's not exactly a new idea...
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14:40<Mazur>Am I correct in perceiving, that it is _not_ possible to build a long tunnel nexrt to shorter one, even if they are one square apart?
14:41<Mazur>I don't see why else it won't try to build.
14:42<Mazur>Anyone?
14:42<PeterT>I believe that's true, yes.
14:42<planetmaker>your assumption is right
14:42<Mazur>Damn, I'll have to figure another solution.
14:42<planetmaker>hm... what a nice warning-less silence with -isystem/opt/local/include :-)
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14:44<Eddi|zuHause>Mazur: there needs to be one space inbetween, otherwise it can't put the exit slope
14:44<@peter1138>well yes, the tunnel entrances have to be on a straight slope, which cannot be in that case
14:47<+glx>planetmaker: your gcc is a macport one ?
14:47<planetmaker>nope
14:47<planetmaker>it's the default osx one
14:47<planetmaker>why would I install another one?
14:48<planetmaker>ok, there are reasons, but...?
14:48<+glx>. /opt/local is system for macport gcc
14:49<planetmaker>hm, interesting. I never even *thought* about installing gcc via macports
14:50<planetmaker>though that possibly should be changeable for the "usual" gcc, too...
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14:51<planetmaker>though I could get gcc4.4 from that...
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>with gcc -v $testfile it should tell you the system include paths
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>where $testfile contains an "#include <somestandardheader>"
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14:55<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know where it configures them, though
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14:57<planetmaker>http://paste.openttd.org/225478 <-- yeah, that's the search path
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>see, no /opt/...
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>gcc has a "--sysroot=<directory>" parameter, maybe that helps
15:00<planetmaker>hm... I *think* that's rather of use for chroot environments.
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15:14<planetmaker>hg, glx, that was a good hint to look at macports for *gcc*
15:15<planetmaker>It seems it allows to install also cross-compilers for mingw and linux elf binaries out-of-box
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15:18*planetmaker start the joy to download and compile gcc...
15:18<planetmaker>+s
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15:26<Eddi|zuHause>see you in three hours :)
15:32<planetmaker>yeah. About that. I did it once on my previous system
15:33<planetmaker>:-) Alas, it's nothing I have to do manually :-P
15:35<Mazur>Found two more old signal paths, caused to more crashes, one while trying to solve a blockage just as a train started to leave, which I overlooked.
15:36<Mazur>Also found some six designs errors, where I'd forgotten to finish what I was building.
15:37<@peter1138>"the joy to" ?
15:38*andythenorth start the joy to draw tanker graphics
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15:39<@peter1138>who wants to buy me a pianoteq license?
15:39<Mazur>Created a dedicated double track from a mine to a power station across half the country. That keeps six coal trains busy.
15:40<Mazur>11 cars each.
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>"alas" might be the wrong word in the context...
15:43<planetmaker>:-) very true
15:43<planetmaker>luckily
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15:44*peter1138 assumes that's a no
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: let's say it's not a matter of "want" :p
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16:48<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19563 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix [FS#3733] (r19558): OnResize wasn't called often enough so scrollbars were in some cases not properly updated causing division by zero
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16:52<Mazur>Hm, tricky. I have a horizontal piece of track with a diagonal offshoot, how do I arrange for the horizontal to have priority? Or do I have to redo the track?
16:55<@peter1138>neither has priority
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16:57<Mazur>It chooses the diagonal every time, though.
16:58<Mazur>Granted, the stations are listed from the other end, so it _is_ not skipping a listed return station.
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17:08<Zuu>Mazur: You can construct prio or even a traffic light if you want to add some control.
17:09<Mazur>Ok, I guess I'll have to read up on that.
17:09<Zuu>I once made a traffic light with dynamic green length based on sensors :-)
17:10<Zuu>But that is usualy not worth it. Prios can be usefull in some situations though.
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17:23<__ln__>http://pics.kuvaton.com/kuvei/google_street_view_wtf.jpg
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17:37<Chrill>__ln__: wtf?
17:37<Markk>Does OpenTTD has an repo for Debian/Ubuntu?
17:38-!-tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-90-238.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:39<@Rubidium>nope
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17:40<mikk36>hey
17:40<mikk36>console timestamping is still not possible?
17:40<PeterT>set show_date_in_logs on
17:41<@Rubidium>depending on which console you mean, yes (if using an appropriately recent version and configure it to do so) or no
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17:42<mikk36>well
17:42<mikk36>http://www.upload.ee/image/508177/clipboard_upped.png
17:43<PeterT>Not those logs
17:43<PeterT>logs intercepted by stdout
17:43<PeterT>(like with autopilot)
17:44<mikk36>it would be very nice if i could see when someone spoke something
17:45<PeterT>It would be
17:45<mikk36>but why is it still not implemented ? :)
17:45<PeterT>you *could* connect the game to IRC and use timestamps in IRC
17:45<mikk36>(05.04.2010 00:28:11) (mikk36) for some reason, irc doesn't work either
17:46<PeterT>AutoPilot isn't the only Game <-> IRC bot
17:46<PeterT>There is pyottdirc
17:46<mikk36>hm
17:46<PeterT>and openttd-python
17:46*PeterT gets links
17:47<PeterT>http://code.google.com/p/openttd-python/
17:47<mikk36>can the work together with autopilot?
17:47<PeterT>http://code.google.com/p/pyottdirc/
17:47<PeterT>these? no
17:47<PeterT>They wouldn't work well
17:47<Ammler>the first link is a client
17:48<Ammler>the 2nd is more like ap
17:51<PeterT>http://code.google.com/p/pyottdirc/source/detail?r=65 <3
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18:27<Zuu>You could probably modify ap or other tool to add timestamps to the output. I mean, if ap work like I would guess it reads the output from OpenTTD and then outputs it to the terminal so it could add a timestamp in the terminal if it wishes to.
18:27<Zuu>No need to go over an IRC bridge for that.
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18:37<@Rubidium>Zuu: stdout output can get timestamps if you enable that; the in-game console doesn't
18:37<xtort->congrats on the 1.0 release! i'm playing it right now, and i love it
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18:55<Terkhen>good night
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20:14<Mazur>Funny. I built a double track and placed the signals on one of them wrong way around.
20:14<Mazur>:-)
20:15<Mazur>Couple of coal trains captured at the end.
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20:36<Jolteon>God damn it
20:36<Jolteon>one breakdown on a train can really screw up networks
20:36<PeterT>you're playing OpenTTD at 12:36 AM?
20:37<Jolteon>01:36
20:37<PeterT>oh, daylight savings
20:37<Jolteon>Yes
20:37<Jolteon>We're in BST now
20:37<Jolteon>not GMT
20:37<Jolteon>BST is same as GMT+1
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20:47<zodttd>Rubidium: I'm not sure why OpenTTD was pulled with a second pull notice to Apple. I thought I covered each point from the first notice. I played OpenTTD on my iPad and it's nearly perfect with the higher res. Is there *anything* I can do to see OpenTTD on the iPad?
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20:53<SirSquidness>zodttd: take a screenshot of it on your desktop, and open the image on your pad
20:53<SirSquidness>:p
20:53<zodttd>Why? I have it running on my iPad
20:54<zodttd>I'm currently using the port I made of OpenTTD to the iPhone in 2x scale mode. Wanting to see if I can get some cooperation to make it native to the iPad where it fits really well.
20:54<zodttd>But I don't want to put in effort if it will be pulled from AppStore (again). :-(
21:00<SirSquidness>I dunno, I was just makinga joke
21:01<SirSquidness>I have no idea about the iPad
21:01<zodttd>oh heh :D
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22:15<Mazur>Is this the shortest track ever? I have a Power Station and a Coal mine so near, that the stations are only 5 squares apart. just enough for the unnecessary signals. :-)
22:16<Mazur>Could have made it Two stations one apart.
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22:48<SirSquidness>andythenorth: around?
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---Logclosed Mon Apr 05 00:00:32 2010