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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-04-06

---Logopened Tue Apr 06 00:00:37 2010
00:01<Mazur>I have a station next to a sawmill, and it's producing goods, yet in the station I see no goods waiting. Do I need to transport it there from the adjacent sawmill?
00:02<SirSquidness>Is the sawmill in the station's catchement area? ie, does the station say it provides goods?
00:03<SirSquidness>and has something attempted to pick up goods from the statoin before?
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00:05<SpComb>Mazur: the station has to cover enough tiles from the sawmill, and you need to have a train that carries goods waiting at the station
00:06<Mazur>Yes, I just built the train and set it going, and it's loading.
00:07<Mazur>GThought I'd build the goods truck line if needed after.
00:07<SpComb>(train or other vehicle)
00:12<Mazur>B.t.w. I've set Primary production for the time being fundable like secondaries, I'm still too slow setting up the infrastructure to support them. They kept dying on me before I was ready. ;-)
00:12<Mazur>When I'm more experienced I'll set it to prospecting again.
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00:20<Mazur>Made my first billion Euro.
00:22<SirSquidness>good work :)
00:39<Mazur>Hm. I've just set up passenger and goods delivery to a mall on the other end of a city, and the mall relocates. Do I have to relocate my bus and goods stop at make sure it's in range or will it resolve itself?
00:39<Mazur>Neither location was in range of the train station.
00:44<Mazur>Relocated it, anyway, joined a new lorry stop at the new location and disconnected/removed the old one.
00:44<Mazur>Same with busstop.
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02:52<Mazur>You know, when adding a dedicated HSL track along existing routes, it helps using signs to remind yourself which pair is HSL and which are for stopping trains.
02:52<Mazur>I discovered I join my planned HSL to a local coal run.
02:54<Mazur>Had to redo a whole swath of tracks to clean it up.
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03:19<dih>hello :-)
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03:30<Zephyris>Morning all!
03:30<@Rubidium>morning y'all
03:30<Zephyris>Feeling the slashdot effect?
03:31<Jupix>oh, they posted it
03:31<Jupix>too bad it wasn't my post
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03:33<SirSquidness>\o/ Merry delayed 1.0.0
03:34<@Rubidium>Zephyris: it's still less than when the day beta1 was released and the day after Christmas
03:35<Zephyris>Interesting! A little investigation into the gaming habits of slashdotters...
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03:38<dih>hey ho sir
03:39<planetmaker>a dih! Moin :-)
03:41<planetmaker>[09:34] <Rubidium> Zephyris: it's still less than when the day beta1 was released and the day after Christmas <-- you speak of total download count? Interesting...
03:41<@Rubidium>planetmaker: no, of server bandwidth
03:41<@Rubidium>LW server bandwidth
03:41<planetmaker>ah, ok
03:41<@Rubidium>although, the binary download is lower too
03:42<planetmaker>including mirrors?
03:42<@Rubidium>the LW server doesn't serve the binaries anymore, so yes... it includes the mirrors
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03:44<planetmaker>hm... interesting, why does beta get more downloads than the stable?
03:45<DDR>Better. :)
03:45<DDR>It's pretty stable itself, it adds great new features. There is really not any disincentive to use it.
03:45<DDR>*to not use it.
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03:46<DDR>Also, I believe the beta is the community standard. Check multiplayer server versions. :)
03:47<planetmaker>DDR: the servers run the stable release mostly. And the betas are not much more than re-labeled nightlies. So I could play those...
03:48<@Rubidium>oh, the stats from around Christmas a skewed due to 0.7.5 too :)
03:48<dih>planetmaker: there's just a difference between what you know and what a bunch of people believe to know ^^
03:48<DDR>Hm, it's been a few weeks since I looked into the situation... and downloaded the beta. You know what?
03:48<planetmaker>hehe :-)
03:48<DDR>Ignore me.
03:48<@Rubidium>there's almost as many 1.0.0 downloads in a little less than 1 week as 1.0.0-beta1 in those two weeks
03:49<planetmaker>DDR: a few weeks ago stable 1.0 release servers just could not have been running...
03:49<planetmaker>ok, that's more to what I expected, Rubidium :-)
03:49<DDR>Well... I often forget what I had for breakfast, it's probable I've just forgotten what I'm talking about.
03:50<DDR>***Not a reliable source.***
03:50<@Rubidium>[Citation needed]
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03:53<@Rubidium>nevertheless, the peak back than is higher than it's now although the bananas download count is significantly higher than during beta1
03:53<Noldo>more new users?
03:54<@Rubidium>in 5 days: 200 GiB via LW and 400 GiB via the mirrors
03:54<@Rubidium>that's about the bandwidth of April in 2009
03:55*peter1138 waits for everything to swap back in so that it can quit
03:55<lennard>oh, that reminds me, I need to tell you guys some moments in time when the utwente mirror will be unavailable
03:56<lennard>I'll need to look it up, but its over a week from now :)
03:57<@Rubidium>lennard: work on the power units?
03:57<@peter1138>ah, quitting monodevelop drops swap from 3GB used to 0.5GB
03:58<lennard>who told you? :P
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03:58<@Rubidium>then it's the 16th and 23rd from 15:00-00:00 UTC
03:58<lennard>hmm, true
03:59<lennard>oh my they actually made an app
03:59<lennard>how silly of them
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04:01<lennard>well, at any rate, we plan to have the mirror simply be offline during the maintenance (real time down is from 06:00-09:00 UTC in both cases)
04:02<lennard>well, at any rate, we plan to have the mirror simply be offline during the maintenance (real time down is from 18:00-21:00 UTC in both cases)
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04:06<Forked>wee.. you made slashdot
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04:22<@Rubidium>openttd-1.0.0/src/newgrf_engine.cpp:4133567: error: expected unqualified-id
04:22<@Rubidium>somehow I think we don't have that many lines :)
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04:24-!-mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
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04:32<Terkhen>good morning
04:40<@peter1138>what produced that error?
04:40<@Rubidium>peter1138: some sparc gcc
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05:17<TrueBrain>we are receiving 6 visits per minute from slashdot .. can anyone go give slashdot a hug? :)
05:18<__ln__>only 6?
05:18<TrueBrain>on average, yes
05:19<TrueBrain>(assuming all have their referer active)
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05:21<TrueBrain>@calc 5691 / 6934
05:21<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 0.820738390539
05:22<blathijs>TrueBrain: 1.0 release was featured on /.?
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05:23<TrueBrain>normally we handle 6 to 7 hits per second. Since 1.0.0 this is between 12 and 16 hits per second. Currently, we are at a rate of 25 hits per second :p
05:24<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: are usually much quieter anyway
05:24<TrueBrain>what is?
05:24<@Rubidium>why did I not write that?
05:24<TrueBrain>you really make no sense, I think you typed a partly sentence
05:25<@Rubidium>anyhow, 30-35 downloads an hour from 2-5 UTC, 130-140 downloads from 15-19 UTC
05:26<@Rubidium>average hourly downloads is 90
05:26<@Rubidium>so given the download stats and your averages we're at roughly twice the normal amount
05:27<TrueBrain>euh, make that '25' more like '40' ;)
05:28<TrueBrain>Rubidium: let me put the stats differently: yesterday in the 08:00-08:59 range, there were 70k hits. Today that number was 173k
05:28<TrueBrain>@calc 173075 / 68298
05:28<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 2.53411520103
05:28<TrueBrain>153% increase :)
05:29<TrueBrain>random other stats: Python (Django), serving main website appears relative stable. php-cgi, serving bugs/wiki are having a hard time handling it .. go figure
05:32<blathijs>TrueBrain: The PHP code needs to reinitialize one every request, which probably makes it more heavy
05:33<TrueBrain>which makes PHP suck ass, yes :)
05:36<dih>TrueBrain: got an accelerator?
05:37<TrueBrain>lol: no; and wouldn't help :)
05:37<dih>why would it not help?
05:39<TrueBrain>because the time is not in the compiling. It is in handling and replying to the request, at this rate
05:40<blathijs>and setting up database connections, and processing configuration, etc. I guess
05:41<TrueBrain>Django for example has a MySQL connection ready at all times, mmmuuucccchhhhh faster :)
05:41<dih>yeah, that must be nice :-)
05:42<dih>my php does support persistent connections
05:44<TrueBrain>unless you run your php stuff as a stand-alone app, it never really is
05:45<blathijs>TrueBrain: With php-cgi or mod_cgi, the mysql_pconnect would save some trouble of connection setup though
05:45<TrueBrain>blathijs: in return, killing your MySQL because of dangling connections ;)
05:47<dih>i dont use php-cgi but a php module
05:53<TrueBrain>hmm .. funny: the downloads amount went up with the same rate as the hits per second went up, meaning that our normal visitors download as often the game as slashdotters do :p
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06:03<Ammler>traffic of DevZone also doubled since April 1st
06:04<Ammler>from 400 to 900 visits
06:06<TrueBrain>to be expected, I guess
06:06<Ammler>hmm, that is bundles., dev. has also doubled from 500 to 1000, silly,
06:06<TrueBrain>strangly though, this channel hasnt been more empty :p
06:07<Ammler>he someone commented that you should make a installier to include the addons ;-)
06:08<Ammler>oh well, bon appetit :-)
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06:23<Sacro>ooh slashdot
06:24<PeterT>oh Sacro
06:25<dih>oh... fuck!
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06:48<ragzid>any idea why I can't build Junk Yard in Scenario editor? i always says " unsuitable". but generating "many random industries" creates it...
06:49<ragzid>(using FIRS)
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06:54<@peter1138>speak to george i guess
06:55<planetmaker>rather to andythenorth
06:55<planetmaker>Dunno the pacement rules for those, though. SE should be SE. Maybe it requires vicinity of towns or alike
06:56<+glx>or special landscape layout
06:56<planetmaker>seems even more likely.
07:02<ragzid>hmm, now I figured that out... it must be built near the town and enough flat space around
07:05<dih>and what is "enough flat space" ?
07:05<dih>can you define that too?
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07:06<ragzid>maybe 1 or 2 square around
07:07<@Rubidium>dih: ain't no lighty
07:07<dih>oh - ohhh ok
07:07<TrueBrain>who still uses apache :s
07:07<svip>:P Many.
07:07<svip>In fact, most of all webservers.
07:08<TrueBrain>number is reducing fast :)
07:08<svip>:P Well, I just slapped a decent cache engine over Apache.
07:08<svip>So now its slowish hog ain't present anymore.
07:08<dih>svip - define 'decent cache engine'
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07:08<svip>dih: Varnish.
07:09<TrueBrain>Apache is just 55% of all httpds (netcraft, March 2010)
07:10<TrueBrain>7% is nginx (what we use too)
07:10<svip>I only use Apache out of habit.
07:10<svip>A decent setup will still get you performance, however.
07:10<TrueBrain>stop doing that ;)
07:10<svip>Well, it works. :P
07:10<svip>I have not yet seen a reason to switch.
07:10<TrueBrain>a bike works too. But I dislike driving 100km with it
07:11<svip>Well, I ain't riding my Apache server.
07:11<dih>TrueBrain: can you give me some numbers from the sql server? i.e. statements / second?
07:11<svip>Besides, I isntalled Varnish.
07:11<svip>Which is like installing rockets on your bike.
07:11<TrueBrain>svip: so maybe it now is fast, but an even higher chance to miss a turn ;)
07:11<TrueBrain>ghehe :)
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07:12<svip>It actually performs without a hitch.
07:12<TrueBrain>Apache can work very nice and stuff :)
07:12<TrueBrain>just ... there are faster things out there :)
07:12<svip>I meant Varnish.
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07:14<svip>It reacts faster than Google's Analytics. :(
07:14<TrueBrain>that aint that hard :)
07:15<dih>you really think that is a good comparison?
07:15<svip>But I was using Google Analytics.
07:15<dih>i mean, comparing your setup against google? :-P
07:15<svip>And its speed was annoying me.
07:15<TrueBrain>@calc 178211 / 3600
07:15<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 49.5030555556
07:15<TrueBrain>50 hits per second and stable ... I think this setup is working :)
07:16<TrueBrain>still 150% increase in normal traffic
07:17<svip>Well, so far, we only get like... 200k hits a day.
07:17<TrueBrain>our main server is running at 10 mbit/s .. still plenty to grow :)
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07:18<TrueBrain>55 GB to US (from 1st of April), 325 GB to the rest, for
07:18<TrueBrain>this game really isn't catching on in the US :p
07:19<svip>What do Americans know? :P
07:19<svip>I don't get webalizer.
07:19<TrueBrain>73k downloads of release files, of which 25% is most likely 1.0.0 release, so that is almost 20k installs in 6 days time :p
07:19<svip>It only seems to update when it feels like it.
07:20<svip>It just skipped the first three days of this month.
07:20<TrueBrain>nah, I have 31k confirmed, so that number is on the low side ...
07:21<svip>Yeah, my server isn't serving binary files.
07:21<TrueBrain>strangely enough, 2% of the downloads yesterday was for 0.6.3 :s
07:21<svip>It is just serving Futurama information for the people.
07:22<svip>But where else will you find an article like this;
07:22<dih>we have about 500-600 'useful' statements / second to your sql server
07:23<TrueBrain>since 2008-09-14, OpenTTD has been downloaded 1.2M times
07:23<svip>Congratulations. :)
07:23<TrueBrain>1M releases, 0.13M nightlies
07:23<TrueBrain>we still have a lot to grow :)
07:25<svip>:P indeed.
07:25<svip>And so do we hope to do.
07:26<svip>When Futurama returns this summer.
07:26<dih>and an average of 190 established connections at any given time (according to netstat)
07:27<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: 31916 1.0.0 downloads up to 05-04 23:59 UTC
07:30<TrueBrain>atm, on average, 1 person downloads OpenTTD every 6 seconds :p
07:30<TrueBrain>(excluding linux distros and stuff of course :p)
07:38<OwenS>I find that its "only" 0.13M nightlies is unimpressive considering how often people redownload them :-(
07:38<planetmaker>OwenS, I guess that doesn't count the source checkouts.
07:39<OwenS>That would be hard considering the multitude of repositories
07:39<ragzid>sync sv->git happens once a day?
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07:40<OwenS>ragzid: every commit
07:40<ragzid>OwenS: thanks
07:41<planetmaker>luckily :-)
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07:48<@Rubidium>must say Varnish looks ingenious, but I fear it doesn't do much good. Much of the content it automatically generated (i.e. uncachable), uses cookies (i.e. uncachable) or is already cached
07:49<@peter1138>sounds "good"
07:54<Mazur>You know, when you build a double one-way track for stopping trains, it really helps if you maake hte one way path signals on one track facing the opposite way.
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08:00<Mazur>Oh well, I thought it funny when I discovered the error.
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08:07<OwenS>The Itanic continues to sink - MS is officially dropping Itanium from future Windows Server releases
08:09<@Rubidium>who cares, as long as OpenTTD compiles & runs on Itanium it's not lost yet
08:09<TrueBrain>Itanium was lost before it was released :p
08:14<@peter1138>OS X is lost? :)
08:17<svip>What is Itanium and why should I care?
08:17<FauxFaux>A cpu architecture even more insignificant than x86_32.
08:17<svip>So I shouldn't care?
08:18<@peter1138>it was intel's original version of a 64 bit platform until amd's trumped it.
08:18<blathijs>Rubidium: OpenTTD will still need an OS to run on, though :-)
08:18<Noldo>what is wrong with it?
08:19<@Rubidium>blathijs: that's what's Debian for
08:19<@peter1138>Debian's new name: OpenTTDOS
08:20<svip>Just make a LiveCD of a Linux distro which only runs OpenTTD.
08:20<@Rubidium>peter1138: shall we at the same time release a DOS version of OpenTTD called OpenTTDOS?
08:20<@peter1138>yes, just runfreedos
08:21<blathijs>Rubidium: Ah, we compile on Debian / Itanium, not Windows / Itanium of course :-)
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08:45<KenjiE20>hm, OpenTTD 1.0.0 is on slashdot
08:46<OwenS>And loads of people there are complaining about the old AI *facepalm*
08:46<KenjiE20>it's slashdot
08:46<OwenS>Thats true :p
08:47<KenjiE20>they're only marginally better than youtube commenters
08:48<OwenS>For Youtube, theres Feyntube.js, which replaces the inane drivel with Richard Feynman quotes
08:49<KenjiE20>I just don't ever read them
08:49<ddfreyne>slashdot? :)
08:50<ddfreyne>i cannot help but feel that diagonal bridges/tunnels would make some constructions so much easier… probably rather hard to write a patch for that, though
08:51<KenjiE20>It's been proposed a couple times on TT-F
08:51<OwenS>Its also very hard
08:51<KenjiE20>it would be awesome though, to be able to built proper flyovers :)
08:52<OwenS>And if you're implementing it, you probably just rewrote the map array.. so why not implement lomo-style complex bridges? :P
08:53<ddfreyne>lomo-style complex bridges? needs some explanation :)
08:53<OwenS>Multiple elevation changes, corners, etc
08:53<ddfreyne>oh, sounds fun
08:53<ddfreyne>(that *would* be useful too :P)
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08:54*TrueBrain gives Ammler a hug
08:54<Ammler>thanks :'-(
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09:00<TrueBrain>our httpd just reached 55 hits per second :p (was 35 3 hours ago)
09:01<+glx>north america woke up ;)
09:01<@Rubidium>oh noes... the server's 15 minute average load has breached 1
09:02<TrueBrain>I really wonder if we wil survive this day without downtime ;)
09:02<OwenS>TrueBrain: Its Lighty isn't it? :p
09:03<@Rubidium>not exclusively
09:04<OwenS>What is used for the static content then?
09:04<@Rubidium>offloading ~20 Mbps to mirrors... lovely
09:04<@Rubidium>OwenS: lighty behind nginx I think
09:04<@Rubidium>mirror distribution is python behind nginx
09:04<@Rubidium>svn over http is apache behind nginx
09:05<OwenS>Using LightHTTPd for the static seems a little silly. As for mirror distribution, I'd be tempted to learn Perl and have it run in-httpd
09:05<@Rubidium>OwenS: the mirror distribution is a webserver written in python dedicated to mirroring
09:06<TrueBrain>OwenS: it depends on what you request, but our front httpd is always nginx
09:06<TrueBrain>and using Perl for httpd is stupid
09:06<TrueBrain>there are more efficient ways
09:07<ashb_>less stupid than using ruby(1.8)
09:07<OwenS>ashb_: Python owns Ruby any day :p
09:07<TrueBrain>in what universe?
09:07<OwenS>BTW, did you see the formal proof someone created that Perl is unparsable?
09:07<ashb_>depends on your metrics. in raw thruput ruby sucks huge donkey balls
09:08<TrueBrain>for ruby, you need to be well aware of your software
09:08<ashb_>OwenS: in a context-free-manner, sure. well known inside perl community
09:08<OwenS>ashb_: Not just in a context-free manner. It is completely impossible to parse Perl
09:09<ashb_>well it clearly isn't
09:09<OwenS>ashb_: Why?
09:09<ashb_>what is the defintion of 'parse' there?
09:09<OwenS>ashb_: Compose a syntax tree from the code. Do not execute any of it.
09:10<ashb_>okay if oyu mean parse only and never exec files then okay
09:10<ashb_>s/files/any code at all/
09:10<OwenS>That is the definition of parse ;-)
09:10<ashb_>not strictly. you can parse one file given the right context
09:10<ashb_>the context involves executing some code :)
09:11<OwenS>Parsing Perl is equivilant to solving the Halting Problem ;-)
09:11<ddfreyne>in my experience lighttpd handles static files quite well, but I’m not used to dealing with distribution on this scale
09:11<TrueBrain>lighttpd does it fine
09:11<TrueBrain>nginx does it better
09:11<ashb_>OwenS: only bad perl ;)
09:11<TrueBrain>Apache does it wrong
09:11<ddfreyne>you can’t parse perl unambiguously
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09:11<OwenS>ashb_: Quite common perl actually
09:11<ashb_>and it stems down to bareword method call.
09:11<ashb_>OwenS: thats my defn of bad ;)
09:12<OwenS>nginx owns any httpd server for performance. It just needs better config files
09:12<TrueBrain>ddfreyne: wrongly formulated. You can _always_ parse thing unambigiously. Just it doesn't have to be unambigiously :)
09:12<@Rubidium>OwenS: except its performance to "leak" memory
09:12<TrueBrain>OwenS: nginx not
09:12<TrueBrain>lighttpd ;)
09:12<OwenS>Rubidium: Huh? Its lighthttpd which leaks
09:12<TrueBrain>OwenS => Rubidium
09:13<ashb_>i prefer the config of nginx to lighty
09:13<TrueBrain>even under this load, nginx is using 10 MiB RAM :p
09:13<OwenS>ashb_: I have no experience with lighty, but nginx config, while simple, is limited. For example, no nested ifs
09:14<@Rubidium>OwenS: you're parsing it incorrectly
09:14<ashb_>not needed that yet. but lighty is harder to parse (as a user) at a glance
09:14<TrueBrain>lighttpd 1.5 had a more sane configure, but .. it seems that is dead
09:14<ashb_>nginx confused the crap out of me at first with its proxy_pass;
09:14<ashb_>it stomps on Host: header
09:15<TrueBrain>Cherokee is best in configure
09:15<blathijs>TrueBrain: That's an interesting thing to say about an unreleased version :-)
09:15<TrueBrain>it comes with a webadmin :)
09:15<TrueBrain>blathijs: why? The part about it being dead? Or more sane configure?
09:15<OwenS>I use nginx exclusively. Except for mailman, which is proxied to apache because mailman sucks balls and uses CGI
09:15<blathijs>TrueBrain: Your use of the past tense in "had" :-)
09:15<TrueBrain>blathijs: well, there was NO development on the 1.5, so I consider it dead, so past tense :)
09:16<blathijs>TrueBrain: But did development really cease? It does have some features I want, so I was hoping they'd finally release sometime soon...
09:16<TrueBrain>what I gathered last time, is that they considered it a brainfart
09:16<TrueBrain>and they continued back on 1.4
09:17<TrueBrain>the are now so far apart ... I wouldn't hold my breath on a 1.5 release .. ever
09:17<jordi>blathijs: have you seen the sparc issue?
09:17<blathijs>jordi: Yeah, Rubidium also spotted it
09:17<@Rubidium>jordi: that's IMO a non-issue of OpenTTD
09:17<@Rubidium>jordi: just look closely at the line number
09:18<@Rubidium>jordi: newgrf_engine.cpp:4133567: error: expected unqualified-id
09:18<ashb_>OwenS: seem the python mail project thiny?
09:18<@Rubidium>jordi: i.e. line number 4 million something
09:18<OwenS>ashb_: no
09:18<ashb_> i think
09:19<ashb_>i don't know any details about it other than 'it exists'
09:19<blathijs>jordi: Do you have access to a sparc machine? I was thinking about mailing the sparc porters about this issue / to ask for access.
09:19<jordi>Rubidium: so your editor can't seek to line 4133567? ha ha!
09:19<OwenS>ashb_: I don't want a new mail server. I want a decent mailing list manager :p
09:19<jordi>blathijs: I could ask for access, but I guess a mail to debian-sparc is best
09:19<jordi>OwenS: dude, ngix + mailman for the win
09:20<OwenS>jordi: mailman doesn't work with nginx to my knowledge
09:20<OwenS>blathijs/jordi: Considered asking for access to OpenSolaris' dev machines?
09:20<TrueBrain>mailman sucks. period.
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09:21<@Rubidium>jordi: no, my editor doesn't have access to 4132377 lines that are not in that file
09:21<blathijs>OwenS: I'd rather try with a machine that runs Debian, since the build failed on Debian
09:22<jordi>blathijs: some good hint would be to compare the GCC versions of the rc3 compile and this one
09:22<OwenS>blathijs: Fair enough. Theres also GCC's compile farm, which is available to OSS projects
09:22<jordi>that, or any tool that generates stiuff during the openttd build, etc.
09:23<jordi>OwenS: if you're interested (and use Debian/Ubuntu), I can give you the package I'll uplooad to Debian eventually (the cgiwrapper)
09:23<jordi>if you don't use Debian/Ubuntu, it's a trivial C file you can compile on your own
09:23<OwenS>jordi: I'm not too bothered at the moment. Its nice to see one of those projects finally producing something viable though
09:23<blathijs>jordi: Hmm, are older logs archived anywhere? Simply changing the version number in the url doesn't seem to work...
09:25<jordi>OwenS: if you are, just ping me. the .deb has an example file for mailman. It's a 5 min job
09:25<@Rubidium>g++-4.4_4.4.3-5 vs g++-4.4_4.4.3-5
09:25<OwenS>jordi: Now if only either Debian or Ubuntu would package a recent nginx version ;-)
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09:26<@Rubidium>the toolchains are the same between rc3 and stable; the .cpp (or its dependencies) hasn't changed since rc3 either
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09:26<jordi>0.7.x is current stable, right?
09:26<@Rubidium>the only thing that's different is that assertions aren't disabled
09:26<KenjiE20>jordi: it's the first thing in the topic
09:26<jordi>KenjiE20: I am aware about OpenTTD 1.0.0
09:27<jordi>however, *nginx* is at 0.7.x :)
09:28<jordi>OwenS: I mean, why do you *need* 0.8.x?
09:28<OwenS>jordi: I think so. I really need to check and update
09:28<blathijs>Rubidium: The build has been done a different machine, though, so that might a factor
09:28<OwenS>jordi: Last I checked Ubuntu didn't even package nginx. I think i'm on an oldish 0.7, must recompile
09:28<blathijs>I guess I'll mail debian-sparc for access later today
09:28<@Rubidium>blathijs: shoddy hardware :)
09:28<jordi>blathijs: I don't think you'll be granted access, porter boxes are developer-only except a few (
09:29<jordi>(kfreebsd-* eg)
09:29<jordi>but I can do the test build if you want
09:30<jordi>OwenS: debian testing & unstable have the very latest stable, fwiw
09:30<jordi>OwenS: and the same version is available from backports.
09:30<blathijs>jordi: It wasn't a problem for the hurd porter's machine a while back
09:31<jordi>yeah, hurd and kfreebsd have granted more open access than DSA-administered boxes
09:31<OwenS>jordi: If only I ran Debian then ;-)
09:32<jordi>OwenS: what do you use?
09:32<OwenS>jordi: Ubuntu LTS
09:32<jordi>ah, our small cousin. :P
09:32<blathijs>jordi: Ah, right.
09:32<jordi>blathijs: should I ask for the build-deps?
09:33<OwenS>Assuming its a SPARC issue, should it not show up on other SPARC boxen?
09:33<jordi>I suspect this is something weird with that buildd
09:33<@Rubidium>I think it's just a fluke
09:33<@Rubidium>hi Belugas
09:34*jordi tries to find out if #debian-sparc exists
09:34<blathijs>jordi: Yeah, I guess so. I was considering compiling just this one file, but that probably only works properly after a full configure etc.
09:35<@Belugas>hello sir Rubidium
09:37*jordi tries to find out who needs some nagging to see if 1.0.0 in Ubuntu 10.04 is possible
09:38<@Rubidium>would slashdot coverage "help" that cause?
09:38<jordi>hheh, no uidea
09:38<jordi>I've found the optimal target. Attack launching!
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09:47<jordi>it seems there's hope
09:47*jordi does the necessary stuff
09:48<dih>you do the necessary stuff for 'hope' ?
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09:53<OwenS>I should dig out my Qt FastCGI/SCGI library...
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09:56<OwenS>Gyah. Why does MSIE only support TLSv1.1 server name indication on Vista and higher?! :-(
09:59<ddfreyne>whoa, weird, my loan was £1M but the max loan is only £500K… weird.
10:00<@Rubidium>you took over some AIs
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10:02<ddfreyne>ah, right
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10:08<Mazur>Man, I made some ugly weird shit trackwise.
10:08<ddfreyne>any way to get a list of all depots?
10:09<planetmaker>well.... yes. But you won't like the method :-P
10:09<planetmaker>Scroll the map and not each depot on a piece of paper :-P
10:09<Mazur>CLeaning it up is a heacache, too, since I don't want to stop the trains.
10:09*ddfreyne is curious :)
10:10<dih>note the tile number, then you can also use the command 'scrollto' :-P
10:11<ddfreyne>it’s a huge map
10:11<ddfreyne>but even if it were a small one, I wouldn’t enjoy it :)
10:11<dih>i always remembered where my depots were
10:11<dih>i could spot them just by looking at the track layout in the minimap
10:11<OwenS>Plop signs on top of them?
10:12*dih plops
10:13<Ammler>or simply use only one depot
10:13<Ammler>(service center)
10:14<planetmaker>stopped trains can also be found in the train list. They have a blue bullet
10:15*ddfreyne bought a competitor but there’s lots of awful depots around the place
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10:18<planetmaker>just get out the BIG dynamite
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10:28<planetmaker>hm... The unowned industry colour issue desync - can that be happening in 1.0.0?
10:29<planetmaker>(or do I recall one of those commit messages just wrongly?)
10:30<planetmaker>should it then always affect all people or a random amount? The latter, right?
10:30<@Rubidium>planetmaker: it can, it's just unlikely as it's been that way for years
10:30<planetmaker>We just had 5/10 players desync.
10:30<Yexo>planetmaker: that desync will only happen if an industry newgrf uses var 0x45 in a gui-callback
10:30<planetmaker>No newgrf. Then not.
10:31<planetmaker>right. Forgot that part of the commit message, Thx Yexo
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10:34<@Rubidium>planetmaker: and you can talk to those people that desync?
10:34<planetmaker>some probably
10:35<planetmaker>what should I ask except the origin of their binary?
10:35<@Rubidium>their OS
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10:42<planetmaker>Rubidium, those two I could get hold of: both from your website, one Ubuntu 9.10 and Windows7 64bit.
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10:43<planetmaker>the ubuntu one is 32bit OS
10:44<@Rubidium>odd; then I don't really have a clue :(
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10:50<@Rubidium>I'm still a bit flabbergasted that it works for basically a year without desyncs and now the show up for you (and seemingly you alone)
10:55<planetmaker>I have to admit that it may look suspicious :-)
10:56<Ammler>well, it is patched with smatz log patch
10:56<planetmaker>But from - not only the chat I had right now with those two players - many people seem not aware that it is a problem: they rather attribute it to faulty connection and so on
10:56<planetmaker>and if (other) admins don't monitor a game actively, such desyncs will pass by unnoticed.
10:57<planetmaker>I know, weak arguments.
10:57<planetmaker>Interestingly I haven't seen one on our main server, the PublicServer.
10:57<Ammler>but true, the other busy servers are the goal server, which are quite much patched
10:57<Ammler>so they wouldn't report such desyncs
10:57<planetmaker>they must not report ;-)
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10:58<dih>ps too is patched, is it not?
10:58<planetmaker>with a logging patch.
10:59<OwenS>planetmaker: Which server did this occur on then?
10:59<planetmaker>OwenS, our 1.0.0 server
11:01<planetmaker>hm... having the stable server run in desync mode would probably be pretty bad on the machine ;-)
11:01<@Rubidium>planetmaker: -ddesnyc=2 shouldn't be that hard on the server
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11:02<planetmaker>does that help, if the clients are non-desync clients? Does it work then at all?
11:02<@Rubidium>however, it's best to have some savegame to load once you've started a game with -ddesync=2
11:03<planetmaker>you mean to load a game and keep that available?
11:03<@Rubidium>planetmaker: what it does is log all commands and the (game) time including when people join. That way one should be able to recreate the exact steps to reproduce it
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11:05<planetmaker>ok... so we re-compile the stable server with desync-debug enabled and set the desync debug level to 2
11:05<planetmaker>And keep especially the savegame which was initially loaded
11:05<@Rubidium>no, not recompile
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11:05<@Rubidium>just run openttd with -ddesync=2
11:05<planetmaker>oh, not? ok
11:05<@Rubidium>just the binary you're running now
11:05<planetmaker>even easier
11:05<Yexo>or do "debug_level desync=2" in the console
11:06<Yexo>then save and load the game
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11:06<@Rubidium>yeah, especially the loading is needed
11:06<planetmaker>yup, I see that
11:06<@Rubidium>because from then it becomes "reproducable"
11:09<planetmaker>:-O 22 players... :-) So chances are there
11:12<planetmaker>hm... what would be the output file for the command log?
11:12<Yexo>stderr, same as with other debug output
11:13<Yexo>or maybe stdout, not sure
11:13<planetmaker>hm, ok, then I need to tee autopilot's output
11:13<dih>mkfifo for stdin stdout and stderr and use redirections ;-)
11:13<@Rubidium>planetmaker: autosave/commands.txt or so gets the autoput
11:15<@Rubidium>what did you do!?! :(
11:15<planetmaker>what I did? I restarted the server so that autopilot's talking is piped into a file
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11:29<jordi>blathijs: ping?
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11:29<blathijs>jordi: pong
11:30<jordi>blathijs: I need a diff between 0.7.5-1 and 1.0.0-1 of the Debian changes
11:31<blathijs>jordi: For review, I guess?
11:31<jordi>for them to review
11:31<jordi>ie, I need to attach that to the bug report
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11:32<blathijs>jordi: I'll have a look
11:32<jordi>probably a diff of changelog.txt too
11:33<blathijs>e.g., upstream changelog?
11:33<Aylomen>wow....didn't think that city-builder is such a stress game :D
11:33<jordi>after that I can request sync to Debian
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11:42<blathijs>jordi: I'll attach the files to the report
11:43<blathijs>I tried using debdiff, but I can't tell it to just list changes to debian/, so I'm just using the git diff instead (which should be fine, of course)
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11:43<jordi>git diff is what I was trying to get
11:43<jordi>but I was getting upstream stuff too
11:44<zombie_monkey>Hi, I rummaged through the wiki and manual, but I'm still not quite sure about one or two basic game mechanics, is this an appropriate place to ask?
11:45<Mazur>Seems to be, I asked all my stoopid newbie stuff here and got polite answers.
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>... we're definitely too good to people :p
11:46<blathijs>jordi: Yeah, I used "git diff debian/0.7.5-1 debian/1.0.0-1 debian" now (the last "debian" is a pathname)
11:46<Mazur>Lots of my network still looks like it was designed by a deranged lunatic with a picasso complex while having the fits.
11:47<Sacro>that's how i design
11:47<Mazur>I'm cleaning it up, though.
11:49<Mazur>Just now unravelled a nightmare at a city, cleaning out 4 bridges and 3 tunnels.
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11:50<zombie_monkey>well the thing is: I can get info on what a square accepts, but does a station have to have the whole of, say, an iron ore mine in its coverage area, to have access to the whole production?
11:50<OwenS>zombie_monkey: No
11:51<zombie_monkey>so I can have just one square of a coal mine but all of the production of the mine will still be accessible to trains form that station?
11:52<zombie_monkey>great, thanks
11:52<zombie_monkey>I was just wondering because individual squares of production facilities have individual accepts
11:56<blathijs>jordi: Done
11:56<blathijs>jordi: Anything else? :-)
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11:57<jordi>blathijs: no,I just subscribed ubuntu-release
11:58<jordi>and now will ask for seconds
12:01<jordi>core ubuntu people to say "this looks ok"
12:01<jordi>I just sent email
12:01<jordi>we'll see tomorrow
12:01<jordi>the biggest issue is the need to import many new packages
12:01<blathijs>Ah, right :-)
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12:36<@Rubidium>planetmaker: still no desync :(
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13:04<planetmaker>I guess we'll have to wait. Sorry... If I could force it, I'd do it ;-)
13:05<planetmaker>But then it wouldn't be required.
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13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19568 /trunk/src/lang/ (12 files): (log message trimmed)
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 15 changes by mfans
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 13 changes by josesun
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: croatian - 1 changes by VoyagerOne
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: danish - 12 changes by silentStatic
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: dutch - 13 changes by habell
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14:14<larsemil>So. my openttd drains 100% cpu all the itme. what could be the cause. using version 1.0 with latest nightly open gfx
14:14<@Rubidium>larsemil: and you're using Ubuntu, right?
14:14<larsemil>Rubidium: yes. :)
14:15<@Rubidium>then read known-bugs.txt, the part about CPU usage and such
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14:15<larsemil>Rubidium: ok thanks
14:18<larsemil>Rubidium: where do i find it?
14:18<larsemil>found it
14:19<@Rubidium>although also somewhere in /usr/share/docs or so on Ubuntu
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14:38<yuriks>what is the correct sign formation to use on a triangle intersection?
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>yuriks: one for each rail segment.
14:44<yuriks> I mean like this
14:44<yuriks>normal signalers seem to create deadlocks sometimes
14:47<PeterT>Yorick is not ehre
14:48<SmatZ>PeterT: yuriks looks suspicious :)
14:48<PeterT>I thought the same thing :-)
14:48<@Rubidium>planetmaker: why is waiting for a desync so boring?
14:48<PeterT>but yuriks has a different host name
14:48<PeterT>Yorick is .nl
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14:50<SmatZ>yuriks: probably nobody understands your question
14:50<Yexo>yuriks: if you have 2 trains on those tracks, and they share only one part of that rails, then you put an exit signal on that piece of track and entry-signals on the other two
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>yuriks: if you use path signals (second one from the right/fifth from the left) it should be easier to get deadlock-free
14:51<SmatZ>ok, it is just me who didn't understand it :)
14:51<Yexo>if you want to use path signals, put a path signal where I said entry-signal and don't put any signal where I said exit signal
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14:56<ragzid|cooking>imho is better to use double-track if you have enough money
14:57*ragzid|cooking is no longer cooking
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14:59<snaqo>hello. anybody having sound problems on linux ?
14:59<@Rubidium>snaqo: by Linux you mean Ubuntu, right?
14:59<__ln__>Rubidium: are there others?
14:59<@Rubidium>and by problems you mean that there is sound but that it's crackling or interrupted, right?
14:59<Muxy>Hop Pierrot Gourmand
15:00<Muxy>Hello TTD Gamers/devs/...
15:00<__ln__>everyone is having sound trouble on linux, thanks to pulseaudio.
15:00<Muxy>PeterT: The Goulp Server Side Patch is ready on tt-forums
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15:00<PeterT>Thanks a bunch!
15:01<Muxy>it will cost you a big-mac
15:01<Muxy>on your next trip to europe
15:01*PeterT gives Muxy a ticket to see a concert of your choosing
15:01<PeterT>Muxy: I'm going to Spain in April
15:02<Muxy>of my choice ?
15:02<Muxy>GreenDay, Muse...
15:02<__ln__>PeterT: it is April already
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15:02<PeterT>*April Vacation, then
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15:02<snaqo>i read that. but it's not only about cpu usage: no sounds play at all
15:02<snaqo>songs seem to last 0 seconds, they keep switching
15:03<snaqo>anybody having anything similar?
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: shouldn't "april vacations" usually be the week before or after easter?
15:03<ragzid>snaqo: missing timidity?
15:03<snaqo>Rubidium: ubuntu 64 bits, yes
15:03<__ln__>PeterT: ¿adónde vas a viajar?
15:03<PeterT>Not in America, aparently
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>at least that's how it works here...
15:03<Yexo>snaqo: do you actually have a music set?
15:03<PeterT>__ln__: Voy a Madrid, Morroco
15:04<PeterT>y muchos ciudades
15:04<snaqo>yes. i have the original and i downloaded OpenSFX/MSX
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>and in may the vacation is around pentecoste (is that the name?)
15:04<PeterT>__ln__: Solo ingles!
15:04<snaqo>all work the same
15:04<snaqo>heh. i installed 'timidity' and it's working now
15:05<@Rubidium>snaqo: in the game options window, what does it say for sound and music set?
15:05<snaqo>its working now. why isn't this package a dependency of the .deb ?
15:05<snaqo>timidity (optional, for playing the music)
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know about your geography, but in mine, Morocco is not in Spain
15:05<@Rubidium>snaqo: because it isn't required to run OpenTTD
15:06<@Rubidium>and it is a "suggests" dependency of OpenTTD
15:06<snaqo>yeah.. its a trade.. its not 'dependent' but it is required if you want the original experience
15:06<snaqo>some users may think it's just not working
15:07<snaqo>well.. thanks a lot :) good work
15:09<__ln__>PeterT: ¿has estado en España antes?
15:11<yuriks>Eddi|zuHause, Yexo: I used combo-signals on all 3 entrances/exists and it seems to have worked... for now
15:11<Yexo>yuriks: that isn't foolproof, it'll deadlock again at some time
15:14<PeterT>__ln__: no
15:14<yuriks>when you say 'use two tracks', do you mean two one way tracks?
15:18<zombie_monkey>you can't switch transport methods, it seems
15:18<zombie_monkey>like, have something transported partly by tran, partly by truck
15:19<zombie_monkey>stations accept certain goods and supply certain goods and that's that?
15:19<Yexo>use transfer orders
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15:30<TrueBrain>tsss, the slashdot effect is already over :(
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15:30<Nite_Owl>Hello all
15:31<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: yeah, it feel from the frontpage
15:34<andythenorth>Hah. "Conclusive proof" that OpenTTD is not a train game :P
15:34<andythenorth>Apparently it's an "Urban planning and simulation game"
15:34<andythenorth>I had better start on a town set :P
15:36<andythenorth>That is google result number 3 for "OpenTTD"
15:37<PeterT>Not for me
15:37<PeterT>First is
15:38<ragzid>~ number 3? :)
15:38<zombie_monkey>Yexo: thanks
15:38<zombie_monkey>I used to play TT a long itme ago, and I had heard of OpenTTD a lot lately, probably because it was nearing 1.0.0
15:38<TrueBrain>that is the 3rd in my book ...
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15:39<Yexo>counting to 3 is apparently difficult for PeterT :p
15:39<TrueBrain>lets teach him
15:39<TrueBrain>PeterT: first you have number 1, that is the first, the one on top
15:39<andythenorth>Ek do teen
15:39<TrueBrain>then comes 2, the one below that, the second
15:39<TrueBrain>then, yes, then, comes 3, the third, the one below the second, and two below the top
15:39<TrueBrain>1, 2, 3
15:39*andythenorth reads slashdot comments
15:40<andythenorth>a habit I stopped a few years ago as a waste of life
15:40<TrueBrain>in general it does not contribute to the general health, reading /. comments ;)
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15:43<PeterT>TrueBrain: :-P
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15:44<Progman> - fail
15:45<@Rubidium>what's this whole notion of 2560x1440 is the maximum resolution? Where does that myth come from?
15:45<@Rubidium>Miss Byron, can you debunk that myth?
15:46<Progman>and the product is not called "Open Transport Tycoon" *g*
15:46<__ln__>The existence of such a limit can only be confirmed by Savage & Hyneman.
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15:49<TrueBrain>Rubidium: we in fact once had a limit on the resolution, so I guess from there that grew?
15:49<andythenorth>Isn't marketing fun :D
15:49<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: yeah, but that limit was significantly lower than that number they pulled out of their arse
15:50<TrueBrain>can;t remember the res. Only know it happened only on dualscreens in that time
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15:52<andythenorth>you can post comments on that site no?
15:52<@Rubidium>andythenorth: /.?
15:52<@Rubidium>or that German site?
15:53<andythenorth>the german site
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15:56<Terkhen>I have found a blog complaining that the free graphics are not included at the installer and that they are not listed as a suggested package (and even claiming that OpenGFX is not packaged separatedly)
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15:58<Nite_Owl>you cannot please all of the people all of the time
15:59<andythenorth>Terkhen: there's a slashdot comment saying the same thing
16:00<Nite_Owl>if you offered to go to their home and do the installation for them and then teach them how to play the game some people would still complain that you have not done enough
16:01*andythenorth wonders what causes them to think they don't have the files though?
16:01<Nite_Owl>learning how to play a game is half the fun provided that you remember that it is just a game
16:02<@Rubidium>andythenorth: 85% of the people who react badly there react that way because that's the only way they get any attention
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16:03<andythenorth>on . /?
16:03<andythenorth>It's one step up from YT comments in the food chain
16:03<Terkhen>that's probably what happened with this blog entry... appears fourth when searching for "openttd 1.0.0" in spanish google
16:03<@Rubidium>andythenorth: youtube's probably 95%
16:03<Terkhen>it has no comments, though
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16:06<PeterT>changes in network protocol caused D:
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16:10<Terkhen>he has a point, though: when not starting OpenTTD from a console it silently fails to start with no messages at all (linux)... but I thought that linux users would notice the links to free graphics / sound / music just over the download link
16:11<andythenorth>it's all about the out-of-the-box experience :)
16:11<@Rubidium>Terkhen: there's not much we can do about that... chicken + egg
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16:12<Terkhen>we could add one of those ugly notices that forces you to scroll down all of it before clicking on download :P
16:12<ragzid>what about improve openttd-wrapper for debian? to check return code of openttd and at least print xmessage that something is wrong...
16:13<@Rubidium>ragzid: that script fails (failed?) for lenny
16:14<@Rubidium>also for the generic binary where people make a desktop item to openttd it fails
16:14<@Rubidium>and then it'll also fail when you don't have xmessage or something like that
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16:15<ragzid>Rubidium: failed, blathijs fixed that
16:15<@Rubidium>ah, then it might be useful for the 1.0.1 debian-ish binaries
16:17<ragzid>xmessage is part of x11-utils package, it could be considered as dependency, or something similar...
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17:02<@Rubidium>lovely... 20% of pre 1.0.0-beta1 monthly bandwidth within 21 hours (for the mirrors alone)
17:10<TrueBrain>it was a nice run today :)
17:11<@Rubidium>so... shall we make April 6th mirror appreciation day? :)
17:11<TrueBrain>yeah :)
17:12<TrueBrain>and the look-we-can-survive-the-slashdot-effect
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17:13<@Rubidium>yeah, that effect is quite minimal... a nightly compile gives a higher bandwidth (factor 2) and load (factor 4) peak
17:14<TrueBrain>at least we know all our httpds can handle 50 hits per second easy
17:14<Nite_Owl>what until the how-the-heck-does-this-work effect hits in a few days (or less)
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17:15<@Rubidium>then I've got a paper to write
17:16<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19569 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_text.cpp newgrf_text.h strings.cpp): -Fix: possible buffer underflow in newgrf string code
17:17<Nite_Owl>I guess the question load will depend on if they find the forums or the email links first
17:18<TrueBrain>our email reply rate is very simple
17:19<Nite_Owl>most likely be a lot of forum questions then
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17:19<TrueBrain>about the emails ;)
17:20<Nite_Owl>or they could end up here
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17:33<Terkhen>good night
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18:18<John_Fredrik>Hey, real quick, what was the command for kicking a player from a server=?
18:19<Yexo>have you tried kick?
18:19<Yexo>first type "clients", then "kick ip" or "kick client-id"
18:20<Nite_Owl>need to feed - later all
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18:22<Bluelight>I'm trying to kick someone using rcon, what kommand should I use to kick?
18:23<Bluelight>Is it a client number? Where do I find this number on the client list?
18:24<Bluelight>Where do I find the client ID?
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18:24<OwenS>Bluelight, list_clients iirc
18:25<Yexo>just "clients"
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19:25<yuriks>do you really get a lot of questions over email?
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19:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19570 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_text.cpp stdafx.h strings.cpp table/control_codes.h): -Add: [NewGRF] support for extended text code 0x9A 11, print qword
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21:52<yuriks>is there any disvantage to using path signals?
21:52<yuriks>like, do they cost your more in maintenance or anything?
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21:58<yuriks>PeterT: thanks again
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21:59<yuriks>I asked you about junctions before iirc =P
21:59<PeterT>I don't believe that was me
22:00<yuriks>hmm, right
22:00<PeterT>I don't want to take credit if it wasn't me.
22:01<yuriks>well, let's just let it at 'thanks' then =)
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22:25<russell_h>is the opengfx, etc downloads site down?
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23:19<Mazur>Man, I did some major, and I mean Major, retracking today.
23:22<Mazur>4, maybe 5 major crossroads, 10 cities, 10 villages...
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---Logclosed Wed Apr 07 00:00:46 2010