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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-04-08

---Logopened Thu Apr 08 00:00:57 2010
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00:39<KyleS>!dl win32
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03:07<dih>good morning ladies
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03:23<Eddi|zuHause>soup in the morning?
03:24<Forked> .. wondering what happened to Canada
03:24<planetmaker>(味噌汁 ?
03:24<planetmaker>and moin :-)
03:24<planetmaker>can be delicious. But needs getting used to.
03:25<Eddi|zuHause>Forked: did you look at the date? :p
03:25<Forked>I have no problem with the police busting people for selling pirated copies of stuff, but 10 years for modifiying a product you've bought?
03:26<Forked>eddi: yeah, but:
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03:51<Eddi|zuHause>Forked: i don't know the law they are trying to enforce there...
04:09<dih>give the queen a call and ask what she thinks about it ^^
04:11<Eddi|zuHause>Forked: if that is true at all, they don't seem to have a strong case...
04:11<Eddi|zuHause>... hm... apparently firefox now has a majority market share in europe...
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04:13<Eddi|zuHause>(this statistics probably depends heavily on the websites)
04:17<@peter1138>modifying computers too? heh
04:19<planetmaker> <-- Browser stats from our openttdcoop sites @ Eddi|zuHause
04:19<Forked>342.1 (1) Every one who, fraudulently and without colour of right,
04:19<Forked>(a) obtains, directly or indirectly, any computer service,
04:19<Forked>(b) by means of an electro-magnetic, acoustic, mechanical or other device, intercepts or causes to be intercepted, directly or indirectly, any function of a computer system,
04:19<Forked>"fraudulently and without colour of right"
04:20<planetmaker>they seem to be highly non-representative.
04:20<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: it's a very clear majority... representative or not...
04:21<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: 5 years ago, it would have been 95% internet explorer...
04:21<planetmaker>yup indeed
04:22<Eddi|zuHause><Forked> "fraudulently and without colour of right" <-- exactly, means "computers you don't own"... which obviously does not apply here...
04:23<Forked>I'm not sure anymore if you actually own the gaming console in some countries anymore, or you just pay for the right to use it
04:23<Jolteon>Forked: WHAT?
04:23<Jolteon>if i'm paying > £100, i expect to own it.
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04:24<Forked>I own my xbox, not worried about that. Then again I do not live in Canada ;-)
04:24<Eddi|zuHause>Forked: there's generally two different kinds of owning... and at least one kind is "who holds it in his hand is the owner"
04:25*Jolteon picks up Eddi and holds him.
04:25<Forked>I would not look at my self as the actual owner of an item that I am not, by law, allowed to do whatever I want with
04:25<Jolteon>You're mine :>
04:26<moot>Yeah, these days, even stuff you pay for still belongs to the company you bought it from
04:26<moot>digital media is the start
04:26<moot>but eventually it's going to progress to physical things as well
04:27<moot>the troubling part is the average consumer has no idea what that means
04:27<moot>doesn't know that it's bad
04:27<@peter1138>and doesn't care
04:27<Eddi|zuHause>Forked: "whatever I want" always has been bounded by laws...
04:27<moot>so the general market will encourage that trend
04:27<planetmaker><Forked> I would not look at my self as the actual owner of an item that I am not, by law, allowed to do whatever I want with <-- if you rent an item you're one kind of owner. If you rent out the item, you're the other kind of owner
04:27<planetmaker>I don't know the legal terms for both in English
04:27<Eddi|zuHause>Forked: you cannot simply run over a human with a car, "just because you want"
04:28<Forked>eddi: As long as it does not hurt others :p and me modding my xbox so it can run an emulator that can run a SNES game I have bought and paid for ..
04:28<Forked>and running over a person with my car is not really that close to opening up my xbox and making it do things that was not intended by the company that produced it
04:28<moot>Forked: but you're hurting microsoft because you're not giving them money for running that emulator
04:28<Eddi|zuHause>Forked: i did agree there... that is very obviously not the intention of the law
04:28<Forked>they are not offering me the emulator
04:29<Forked>so how does it hurt them?
04:29<moot>because you aren't giving them more money
04:29<moot>It's ridiculous
04:29<Forked>if microsoft had actually had linux support from the beginning the xbox360 would not have been cracked
04:30<Forked>I understand that they of all companies do not have that support, but still
04:31<planetmaker>Forked, I doubt that it wouldn't have been cracked with linux support. But still...
04:32<Forked>sure, the DVD thing might have happened
04:33<Forked>but it would not have been "rooted" as it is now, at least not so 'fast'
04:33<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: on the contrary. the PS3 was the last console to be cracked, simply because there was no need to do so, because it already had linux support
04:33<Forked>the ps3 is not cracked
04:33<Forked>not properly anyway, but Sony are or has already removed the linux support
04:33<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, "was" ;-)
04:33<Eddi|zuHause>Forked: not fully, but the need constantly rises...
04:34<planetmaker>but sure yes, the incentive drops. But then there are sufficient people out there who do exactly those things as a sport. And hell, why not?
04:34<planetmaker>It's a kind of advanced riddle.
04:34<Forked>the pirates simply do not have the skill/patience that some of the "I want linux on that thing, even if I have 3 computers I already run it on" hardware hackers have
04:36<planetmaker>contrary to some of those hacks required it was moderately easy to install chess on a voting machine
04:37<Eddi|zuHause><planetmaker> but sure yes, the incentive drops. But then there are sufficient people out there who do exactly those things as a sport. And hell, why not? <-- in case of the PS3, it was very obvious that it was not "sufficient"
04:41<moot>voting machines are ridiculously vuln
04:41<moot>it's retarded
04:43<planetmaker>luckily they're for now forbidden (again). At least for now.
04:43<planetmaker>at least where I live :-)
04:47<Eddi|zuHause>they're not "forbidden", the constitutional court said "every (potentially computer-illiterate) must be capable of reconstructing the counting of the votes", which practically no computer can achieve...
04:48<planetmaker>ok, I should have written "all currently existing" :-)
04:48<planetmaker>And that ruling sounds quite sane to me :-)
04:49<planetmaker>I just wonder when people will need special training with a ballpen in order to go voting ;-) as handwring is being abandoned ;-)
04:52<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: of course, that includes a shift in the general population, which might mean the court ruling should be viewed in a different light
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05:14<dih>\o/ optimizing php pages
05:14<dih>fuck :-P
05:18<Eddi|zuHause>you look like you're having fun :)
05:19<dih>yeah - i am
05:20<dih>because someone managed to - in a single page request - do 268 x file_exists() :-D
05:20<dih>and wonders why the request takes such a long time
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05:21<Eddi|zuHause>i hope you get paid for this :p
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06:00<dih>fuck.... 2152 translations to the same language distributed over 179 files
06:00<Jupix>is there a better way for figuring out whether some 268 files exist than looping file_exists through them?
06:00<dih>yes - they are all included seperately as they are needed
06:01<dih>no wonder, the translater does over 110 x a stat to see if the file exists before it tries to include it!
06:01<dih>Jupix: 70 x file_exists goes on the account of 'autoloader'
06:02<dih>110 x file_exists for the crap translator
06:02<dih>and no - we cannot just use gettext.....
06:02<__ln__>why not embrace the OpenTTD translation system with webtranslator
06:02<dih>wtf am i doing here?
06:03<@Rubidium>typing nonsense
06:04<dih>and how are the translations handled?
06:04<dih>define('TNS_TRADEFAIR.PHP.INFO', 'trade fair info');
06:05<Jupix>why not just write an article for TDWTF
06:05<Jupix>sounds like a nice addition
06:07<lennard>dih: so cache the results of the stats in a memcached :P
06:08<dih>yeah - that makes it faster ^^
06:09<dih>we do have a memcached but i am not sure that will impfove speed _that_ much
06:10<lennard>well, not the first time :)
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07:08*dih could do with a nap
07:09<@peter1138>so do so
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07:09<dih>i am at work
07:10<dih>sucks ^^
07:10<@peter1138>that never stopped me :D
07:10<dih>do you still have the job? :-P
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07:39<dih>znc update?
07:40<Ammler>ssl cert update :-)
07:41<Ammler>stupid free certs needs yearly update
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07:43<Ammler>(not the cert, me)
07:45<Forked>ah. (the only .no gaming magazine I read) has a story about OpenTTD 1.0.0 :-)
07:46<Ammler>"ferdig", almost German ;-)
07:46<Forked>shut it
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07:47<Ammler>why do the public screen mostly show a town?
07:47<Forked>no idea, I don't work for them :)
07:48<Ammler>not just there
07:49<Ammler>the current screen on the frontpage is quite ugly...
07:51<Priski>I agree
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07:51<@peter1138>submit a better one?
07:51<Priski>it should have more rails, not some city
07:52<Ammler>peter1138: anyone from the screenshot section is better...
07:52<Priski>pick one out of those what there are on the screenshots page?
07:53<@peter1138>nothing to do with me, so
07:54<Ammler>the screen used is one of the better..
07:55<Ammler> used that ugly screen
07:57<SpComb>bad PR
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08:04<dih>just read the first line of a php optimization howto:
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08:04<dih>"PHP is a very fast programming language, ..."
08:09<TrueBrain>it is faster than Shakespeare
08:09<Noldo>fast to get fed up with
08:10<ragzid>and faster than diarrhea?:)
08:13<@peter1138>about a useful
08:19<@Rubidium>so it's a language for programming very fast, not for creating fast programs... just for creating programs fast
08:20<nighthawk_c_m>if coded right I think it is quite fast - and far more flexible then html - unless one is a really good html coder
08:20<SpComb>har har
08:21<@peter1138>but php is infinitely slower than html :)
08:21<dih>erm.... you are comparing php and html - you compare a language with 'painting'?
08:22<nighthawk_c_m>Html is a code too - so are oaintinmgs and languages, but I will not argue about that
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08:35<ddfreyne>Io is the language with the slowest interpreter ever
08:36<ddfreyne>HTML is not turing-complete so that doesn’t count ;)
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08:55<OwenS>Hmm... does that mean Brainfuck is the language with the fastest interpreter ever :-P?
08:57<OwenS>I suppose if you go by instructions/second, not much can beat BF, but BF's useful IPS is abysmal :p
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09:08<Eddi|zuHause>if you encode the brainfuck instructions in 3 bits, you have a great machine language for a simple processor
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>then you can start adding "useful" features like cache, registers, indirect addressing
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>and piece by piece you add more complex operations, like arithmetical or logical operations
09:13<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause, BF is a turing tarpit... I think one would be better off starting from somewhere less so :p
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: i don't see why that has to be...
09:15<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause, by the time you'd added useful instructions, the only BF ones worth keeping would be + and - :P
09:16<OwenS>And those only if you didn't have a reasonable add literal/sub literal
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>no, those are the ones easiest to throw away
09:17<Eddi|zuHause>you need register operations, so < and > you can keep, + and - are "read" "modified version of < and >" and "store"
09:17<Eddi|zuHause>so you have one register for the pointer, and one "cache" register that contains the value of the current memory location
09:18<Mazur>Is there some way to pinpoint a spot one missed when converting to electrified rail?
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>Mazur: sadly, no.
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>Mazur: there was a very promising "tile highlighting" patch, but the creator disappeared before finishing it
09:20<Mazur>No brightly coloured NewGRF set in which each type of rail has a distictive colour?
09:22<Mazur>Would that not be the easiest method? Or am I talking bollocks?
09:23<OwenS>Mazur, electrified rails don't have special graphics
09:23<OwenS>They're overlays
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09:23<Mazur>Brightly coloured overlays, then?
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>Mazur: if you use dutchcatw.grf, the catenary is more visible than the default one
09:50<Mazur>I thought of a simple method:
09:51<Mazur>Isolate the problem area, (or part of it), remove signals if necessary, set up waypoints with loops behind them, and send a dedicated temporary car-less engine to the waypoint.
09:52<Eddi|zuHause>Mazur: of course you can make a grf that makes electrified rails in "alarm colours", but the problem then is that you cannot switch between "normal" and "highlighting" mode, like you can with track reservation or transparency
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10:06<nighthawk_c_m>maybe with 2 parameters ingame? or do they not work when the game already loded - like is being played
10:13<welshdragon>Mazur: send a single electric loco out
10:14<welshdragon>that's how I always check my conversions
10:14<Mazur>Yes, I justm said.
10:14<welshdragon>no probs
10:15<Mazur>Found out it was the signalling, which was pointing the wrong direction for the return tracks.
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10:17<welshdragon>could an overlay be used when placing signals which indicates the direction the signal permits?
10:18<welshdragon>(i.e. <> for bi - directional, < for left and > for right)
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10:18<nighthawk_c_m>it all is less problematic eith the 32 bit graphics as you can zoom in closer
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>hm... if i have a map, and it says "15 Miles make one Degree", how much is one mile?
10:18<nighthawk_c_m>1.6km i think
10:19<Eddi|zuHause>nighthawk_c_m: there are many different miles
10:19<Eddi|zuHause>nighthawk_c_m: you're talking about the "british imperial" mile
10:19<welshdragon>nautical mile?
10:19<Eddi|zuHause>i believe one degree is 111 km
10:19<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 111/15
10:19<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 7.4
10:20<nighthawk_c_m>1 nautical mile = 1.85200 kilometers
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>7.4 km...
10:20<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: 1 degree can't be put in km, it depends on where you are :)
10:20<TrueBrain>55m at 70N, 90m at 90N I believe :p
10:20<TrueBrain>euh, s/90N/50N/
10:21<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: longitude degree varies, latitude degree is constant...
10:21<TrueBrain>you didn't specify :p
10:21<Eddi|zuHause>the map didn't either ;)
10:22<TrueBrain>so it is an ambigious map :)
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>but using a varying degree without specification is a bit useless :)
10:22<TrueBrain>if you zoom in enough, it will be fine
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>7.4km sounds like the right range :=)
10:23<Mazur>Can anyone suggest a good page about using a NewGRF? How to load/activate etc. All the basics for an OpenTTD newbie.
10:24<Mazur>I'll dig further, there, thanks.
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10:49<SpComb>bah, failed my first attempt at the final Settlers II roman campaign mission :(
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>i thought you read the walkthroughs?
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10:54<Sacro>SpComb: <3 SII
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11:00<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: it isn't that detailed
11:01<welshdragon>OMG A Sacro
11:02<welshdragon>how rare
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11:04<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: mainly it just tells you who the enemies are and what their stance on you is, and approxiate directions that you have to advance
11:04<welshdragon>how can we help you ImaNewbie?
11:04<SpComb>I ran out of both soldiers and stone simultaneously
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11:04<ImaNewbie>i'm wondering that myself
11:05<ImaNewbie>i heard this is the place where open TTD people are
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: in S2TNG there's a mission where you have to rush through an enemies territory before you find gold
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>don't know if that exists in S2 too, never made it that far
11:05<planetmaker>here are open (-minded) people and OpenTTD people - and some are even both, some are one at most ;-)
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>ImaNewbie: no, this channel is about discussing settlers...
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>... or webservers :p
11:06<planetmaker>common typos actually
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>... or programming languages :)
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>at least those seem to be covering todays topics :)
11:08<TrueBrain>it RARELY is about OpenTTD, that is true
11:08<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: don't forget 'miles'
11:08<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause, and BF-inspired processor architectures?
11:08<TrueBrain>OwenS: what has your boyfriend have to do with it?
11:08<ImaNewbie>i said "where OpenTTD people are" not "where OpenTTD is frequently discussed"
11:09<TrueBrain>you are smart!
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: that's just a slight spinoff from programming languages
11:11<OwenS>TrueBrain, I was referring to the somwhat vulgar programming language :p
11:11<TrueBrain>owh, really? Hmm .. who would have guessed
11:15<ImaNewbie>anyhow a friend recomended me the game like... 2 days ago
11:15<__ln__>ImaNewbie: and now you are seeking help for your addiction?
11:15<__ln__>remember to eat and sleep
11:16<ImaNewbie>yes, i'm looking for other addicted people to form an Anonymous Tycoons support group
11:16<KenjiE20>we have one, it's TT-Forums :P
11:19<@Rubidium>nobody's anonymous here
11:21<Eddi|zuHause>Hello, i'm Eddi, and i'm a Tycoon.
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11:22<ImaNewbie>i see i'm gonna feel right at home here :)
11:23<@Rubidium>hi, I'm Rubidium and time outside OpenTTD goes too fast when playing OpenTTD
11:23<Belugas>Hello, i'm Belugas and I'm a white dolphin without dorsal fin
11:24<OwenS>Hello, I'm Owen and I kill hard drives...
11:24<planetmaker>Hi I'm planetmaker and I take pride in creating fjords like in Norwegian fjordlands
11:25*Eddi|zuHause slaps planetmaker with a towel
11:25*planetmaker fences that off with my own towel
11:25<KenjiE20>now there's two hoopy froods
11:26<Belugas>Hello, I'm a towel and I like to spank people
11:26<TrueBrain>Hi, I am crazy
11:26*TrueBrain hugs Belugas
11:26<ImaNewbie>Hi, I'm a Newbie
11:26<KenjiE20>hi crazy, I'm a bowl of petunias
11:27<OwenS>"Oh no, not again"
11:27<TrueBrain>you really used to be a snake
11:27<TrueBrain>but what is this strange thing I feel at my .. well .. lets call it my tummy? Wind .. yes, wind, wind is a good name. What is coming at me at a crazy speed .. round ...ound ... ground! Hello ground, wanne be friends?
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11:29<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19584 /trunk/src/order_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3744]: Crash when pressing 'h' (non-stop) in the order window of a ship or aircraft
11:29<TrueBrain>pressing 'h' non-stop, or is 'h' non-stop?
11:30<TrueBrain>you got to love those statements :)
11:31<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: whatever crashes your OpenTTD
11:32<ImaNewbie>i believe it's called the "elevator button syndrome": pressing a button non-stop hoping it will make things go faster
11:33<Belugas>TrueBrain! My hero and my inspiration!
11:33<@Rubidium>actually, there *are* elevators where pressing the "close door" button makes the elevator not stop on floors where people want to enter the elevator
11:34<OwenS>Rubidium, being rude *and* going faster in one button? awesome
11:36<@Rubidium>OwenS: it actually makes sense
11:36<KenjiE20>you have to hit close door and the desired floor together iirc
11:36<@Rubidium>if the elevator is full, waiting for a timeout to close the door and to stop at floors just to wait for the timeout makes it less efficient
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11:37<OwenS>Rubidium, true
11:37*KenjiE20 np: H2G2 - The Primary Phase Disc 1
11:37<OwenS>KenjiE20, you need to make sure it goes on the #ottdc charts too ;-)
11:38<@Rubidium>but then... in Europe those things usually get used for the rudeness... after all people in Europe seem to be more egocentrical than in e.g. Japan
11:40<@Rubidium>was really a shocker when coming back from Japan that once in Europe people where standing still on both sides of the escalator again; I had never seen that happen in Japan
11:41<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19585 /branches/1.0/ (18 files in 5 dirs): (log message trimmed)
11:41<CIA-6>OpenTTD: [1.0] -Backport from trunk:
11:41<CIA-6>OpenTTD: - Feature: [NewGRF] Support for extended text code 0x9A 11, print qword (r19570)
11:41<CIA-6>OpenTTD: - Change: Sync Debian packaging updates from Debian, but keep building a single package (r19572)
11:41<CIA-6>OpenTTD: - Fix: Crash when pressing 'h' (non-stop) in the order window of a ship or aircraft [FS#3744] (r19584)
11:41<CIA-6>OpenTTD: - Fix: Graphs were not properly updated when going toggling keys (i.e. companies) (r19574)
11:41<CIA-6>OpenTTD: - Fix: The timetable button was not automatically raised [FS#3739] (r19571)
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11:51<Eddi|zuHause>] <TrueBrain> but what is this strange thing I feel at my .. well .. lets call it my tummy? Wind .. yes, wind, wind is a good name. <-- we have a name for "tummy winds" :p
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>(actually two, depending on direction :p)
11:53<Ammler> <-- is that also knows compile issue?
11:54<@Rubidium>no, never heard of those...
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12:07<planetmaker>Rubidium, want another transcript with desync? Then pull :-)
12:07<planetmaker>It's actually a continuation though, of the old
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12:10<@Rubidium>planetmaker: I'll look a bit later
12:13<planetmaker>It won't run away :-)
12:16<Mazur>Here's an interesting one: Two trains, shared orders, separate double tracks, transport coal between the two endpoints. No other stations or connections to the dual track. Yet both claim being lost.
12:17<Mazur>Because it was bugging me, I already made one skip a destination, so I can;t make a save for those interested in tracking the bug. Sorry, wasn't thinking.
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12:22<Mazur>And yes, there are depots along the line, one at both ends, easily accesssible.
12:23<@Rubidium>lovely... 01:22 another company takeover + desync, 01:37 preceded by cache mismatches and company takeover (so there might be two), the 18:07 one doesn't have company takeover
12:24<@Rubidium>could you ask damaso about his OS and where he got the binary from?
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12:24<planetmaker>Rubidium, as it doesn't seem to be really bothersome on the server side, we could also run that on the trunk server
12:26<Mazur>Eddi: "Oh, no, not again."
12:26<@Rubidium>planetmaker: it was meant to be not too bothersome this way :)
12:27<planetmaker>official OpenTTD binary on mandriva linux 64bit is the answer to the 18:07 incident
12:27<@Rubidium>you might consider disabling autosave when using -ddesync=3
12:27<planetmaker>yes, true
12:28<planetmaker>but they're cycled through anyway
12:28<@Rubidium>but two autosaves after eachother at server side is a bit noticable at client side
12:29<planetmaker>hm, ok
12:30<ImaNewbie>anyone know a decent source explaining how to build railroads?
12:30<planetmaker>disabled :-)
12:30<planetmaker>ImaNewbie, the wiki? Or maybe also the openttdcoop wiki?
12:30<planetmaker>Or look at the savegames in our PublicServer archive
12:31<planetmaker>(linked from the )
12:31<ImaNewbie>checking out the coop wiki
12:31<planetmaker>beware. We're insane ;-)
12:31<planetmaker>you could also youtube for some tutorials
12:33<ImaNewbie>i hope you don't mean a powerpoint presentation with someone slowly reading the bullet points :)
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12:43<@Rubidium>hmm, those cache mismatches have actually happened quite often
12:44<@Rubidium>more often than company takeovers
12:44<@Rubidium>but then, they have happened so often that it might not be a problem
12:44<@Rubidium>or at least not THE problem
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12:53<@Rubidium>yay... the cache mismatch stuff seems to be reproducable from an autosave :)
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13:07<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19586 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Fix: some false positives in cache validity checks because cache = v->cache doesn't necessarily write all sizeof(Cache) bytes
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13:12<Eddi|zuHause>... so does that fix the desyncs?
13:14<@Rubidium>no, just removes false positives in the cache mismatch thing
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13:16<fonsinchen>There are desyncs in trunk?
13:18<fonsinchen>Maybe I can help debugging them (before I start debugging those in cargodist ...)?
13:18<@Rubidium>there might be one that seems to be related to buying a bankrupt company in 1.0.0
13:18<@Rubidium>there are false positive for the cache validity checks
13:19<fonsinchen>yes, if it's about buying a bankrupt company it might explain some things in the OTTDC cargodist test game.
13:20<@Rubidium>planetmaker: want a logging of crashed trains in the 'stable' game?
13:20<fonsinchen>The first desync there happened when Alberth bought my bankrupt company.
13:20<Alberth>I got out just in time :p
13:21<OwenS>Cargodist's tendency to bankrupt companies exacrebating them :p
13:21<fonsinchen>uh, do you suspect it has something to do with crashed trains? I think I had a train crash right before that.
13:22<@Rubidium>oh... epiphany time...
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13:22<@Rubidium>it didn't happen in 0.7.x because there the buy-other-bankrupt-company thing was broken (read: missing)
13:23<@Rubidium>fonsinchen: no, crashed trains cause false positives in the cache validity checks
13:23<@Rubidium>because they randomly spin around wagons without updating the "curve speed limit"
13:27<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19587 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp:
13:27<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Fix: false positive in cache validity checking when a train crashes; the max
13:27<CIA-6>OpenTTD: curve speed depends on the 'angle' between wagons and with wagons spinning
13:27<CIA-6>OpenTTD: around randomly without updating the max curve speed cache that leads to
13:27<CIA-6>OpenTTD: "seeing" a difference. As the caches aren't useful for crashed vehicles anymore,
13:27<CIA-6>OpenTTD: just ignore those vehicles
13:35<planetmaker>interesting thing those "false positives" :-)
13:35<planetmaker>Rubidium: yes I would like to see that :-)
13:36<planetmaker>Rubidium: should we start a new logging or is it fine to just continue?
13:36<@Rubidium>planetmaker: current logging is fine; I'll just ignore the cache mismatches
13:36<@Rubidium>anyhow, look at the cache mismatches for the crashes
13:38<planetmaker>Rubidium: ok :-)
13:38<planetmaker>I guess the cache mismatches anyway cannot be turned off in 1.0, I assume?
13:38<planetmaker>(except if we run a modified binary ;-) )
13:39<planetmaker>But we could (also) turn it on in trunk. But as I haven't seen it there on our PS really, it remains to assume that it might be a MP - related thing
13:39<planetmaker>with more than one company
13:40<@Rubidium>you won't see the cache mismatches unless -ddesync>=2
13:40<planetmaker>Rubidium: yet another right now. If you want...
13:40<planetmaker>... pull it (again)
13:41<planetmaker>anyway... I might be off till tomorrow night and at most only randomly until then. Catch you later :-)
13:42<planetmaker>I might start a new game later tonight though on the server.
13:43<@Rubidium>no direct buyout, but there was one a while ago
13:43<@Rubidium>few minutes that is
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13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19588 /trunk/src/lang/ (catalan.txt czech.txt):
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: catalan - 3 changes by arnau
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: czech - 3 changes by Harlequin
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13:47<Quibus>planetmaker: there you have it:
13:49<@Rubidium>just blame Gentoo...
13:51<@Rubidium>other distros seem to be naming it openttd-open[gsm][sf]x (other being Fedora, Debian, (Open)SUSE)
13:52<Eddi|zuHause> <-- hey, this bug is great: "This script wiped my harddrive" - "Don't do that then" :p
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13:53<Phazorx>got a dev question
13:53<Phazorx>i knew i could count on you Rubi :)
13:55<Phazorx>part one: how simple/complex would be to dumb down one of existing PFs (original is most likely candidate) to stop behaving like destination based and replace al logic by situational random switches on split based on presented options?
13:56<Phazorx>so essentially pf would just move train within limits of game engin towards next green signa
13:56<Phazorx>stop if there are none and choose randomly one if there are many
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13:56<@Rubidium>just let them return "there's not path"
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13:57<Phazorx>Rubidium: well, performance optimization is one of key aspects of this question
13:57<@Rubidium>although, that probably won't work right
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13:57<Phazorx>so i'd rather not have any patching at all since none is needed
13:58<Phazorx>this comes from cooper's realm where we sometimes use crazy networks, which guide trains by logic and have no need for PF such (trains dont even have orders somtimes)
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13:59<@Rubidium>Phazorx: having no orders gives you the 'random' behaviour you're probably looking for, but it won't work right in ALL cases
14:00<Phazorx>we did notice that, and random behavior is not all that is desired, chances are - by not having PF overhead we wul be able to squeeze more fun out of the game, as in d more and go further
14:01<Phazorx>so, a very silly PF would be nice
14:02<Phazorx>think about simple p2p networks that default (and most current) AIs build - the get no benefit of PF features either
14:02<Phazorx>essentiall complicated PF routines are mosty trying to overcome network design flaws of some kind at larger scle of things
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14:07<Phazorx>anyway... that was part one... which is largely based on assumption of it being possible and easy... as well as that someone is willing to look into that
14:07<Phazorx>part two is related to time estimates and chances of that ever making to trunk :o)
14:08<Phazorx>which is quite a bit to ask for... but wouldnt make sense to make it another custom patch for coopers and deny it to public
14:10<Alberth>it wouldn't, but that does not mean it should be added to trunk. Publishing the patch at a forum would be sufficient
14:10<Alberth>lots of custom openttd versions are being built and distributed that way
14:10<@Rubidium>I don't know what potential problems you're going to cause with a "no order, no pathfinder, let funky signalling figure it out" approach
14:11<@Rubidium>so, can't say anything useful about chances or time estimates
14:13<Phazorx>Alberth: openttdcoop's public server uses official revisions only, that way we can reach more players
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14:15<Phazorx>Rubidium: i was under assumption that people who look into code pretty much every day would have a clue about things like that... but to me it looks like removing things mostly and hacking it fugly rather than developing a new and shiny PF
14:16<Alberth>main problem is not the change itself, it is deciding there are no other bad effects, I think
14:16<Phazorx>there are bad effects - trains might not get where they normally would and are lost by definition
14:17<@Rubidium>Phazorx: what you're asking breaks a lot of assumptions OpenTTD is built upon and when breaking assumptions all bets are off
14:17<Phazorx>Rubidium: is the state machine of moving vehicles within engine documented anywhere in some form i can look at?
14:17<@Rubidium>it took almost two years to revamp the window system and that "only" assumed a fixed size for widgets
14:17<Phazorx>heh, visual changes are known to do that :)
14:18<Phazorx>and window framework is no little deal
14:18<@Rubidium>Phazorx: no; actually, there are no moving vehicles without engine
14:18<@Rubidium>hmm, or did you mean another "engine"?
14:18<Phazorx>i mean game engine :)
14:19<Phazorx>rather than choochoo engine
14:20<Alberth>simplest way may be to start at the PF, and trace back what uses it
14:21<@Rubidium>in any case there's probably no clear documentation of (all) aspects of vehicle movement
14:21<@Rubidium>even then there're many different parts about it that you probably don't care about
14:21<Phazorx>to me simpliest way always was to comprehend what people who did the base for it wrote
14:21<Phazorx>Rubidium: agreed
14:22<OwenS>Phazorx, I'd guess a bunch of it was written by people who are no longer developers ;-)
14:22<Phazorx>but i would like to know what things are in PF domain and how often it is being talked to
14:22<@Rubidium>anyhow, I'd say ChooseTrack
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14:28<Eddi|zuHause>why not simply write a new pathfinder, and hook that in the existing abstraction?
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14:29<Eddi|zuHause>as far as i have understood you simply want it to do a BFS to look whether the next signal is green
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14:31<Eddi|zuHause>so basically you want to look at all places using "" and add your DumbPathfinder there
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14:34<Eddi|zuHause>the trickiest part i presume to be depot handling
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>(you want to find depots even if they're not in the current block, because the check is probably not done all the time)
14:37<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: but... the signals should guide the vehicle to the depot, not the vehicle itself
14:37<Phazorx>hmm... depots are probably something tricky
14:38<Phazorx>since they are per train thing rather than per train stream
14:39<Phazorx>but easiest would be with per block check on top level
14:39<Phazorx>would work even better for all practical usage of depoting trains anyway
14:39<Phazorx>it doesnt matter which depot train goes in for a service or an upgrade
14:40<Phazorx>am i correct assuming that currently "send to depot" order is a generic order issues aside of schedule?
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14:43<Eddi|zuHause>"Go to depot" is triggered by three situations: a) player manually gives a depot order from the train window, b) train has service order in vehicle's schedule, c) every few days the train checks whether it needs servicing, searches a nearby depot, and if it found that, issues service-in-depot
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>a) can also be triggered from other places like the train list
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14:48<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause: that's a trigger, but what is th mechanism under it?
14:48<Phazorx>a temporary current order is added to the schedule queue?
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>Phazorx: just do what i said earlier, the source code is better structured than you think :)
14:48<Phazorx>so a PF normally tries to path to it regulary as train moves?
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14:49<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause: i'll do that as soon as svn co completes :)
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>that takes like 10 seconds?!?
14:49<OwenS>Phazorx, should have done a git clone :P
14:49<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause: not up, co!
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>Phazorx: ok, 20 :p
14:50<Phazorx>but you are correct, igot some issues there :/
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14:59<Nite_Owl>Hello all
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15:27<andythenorth>if any kind of goal system existed, sho
15:27<andythenorth>should it require certain newgrfs?
15:28<andythenorth>that is incredibly badly worded and typed. ignore me
15:28<andythenorth>I'll go and do something more useful :P
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15:39<welshdragon>andythenorth: like draw graphics?
15:39<andythenorth>like cook dinner
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15:45*andythenorth is remarkably tired
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15:46*welshdragon is also
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16:28<__ln__>why is a raven like a writing desk?
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17:15<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19589 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Change: add some more useful information to the desync log and unify the formatting
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17:20<Belugas>zweet zhome
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17:26*Eddi|zuHause imagines a black-and-yellow striped whale...
17:26*OwenS ponders Eddi|zuHause' sanity
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>what sanity?
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>i'm almost as bad as TrueBrain :p
17:27<__ln__>have you been thinking about words that begin with the letter 'M'?
17:27*Prof_Frink puts his underpants on his head and sticks two pencils up his nose
17:28<SpComb>look, it's a whale
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17:29*Eddi|zuHause wonders if the joke with "Walross" could possibly be translated into english...
17:32<Eddi|zuHause> <-- part one, two pencils in the nose resembling a walrus
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>part two: "Walross" [=walrus] sharing the same word stem as "Wal" [=whale]
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>part three: SpComb mixing things up :)
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17:34<OwenS>If Prof_Frink is sticking underpants on his head and pencils up his nose, I'll just shoot him for wasting my time...
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>(ethymological question: what does a walrus [=Wal|ross] have to do with whales [=Wal] and steed [=Ross])
17:35<SpComb>you can't ride a whale
17:36<Prof_Frink>Yes Darling?
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: the worm is the spice...
17:40<__ln__>walk without rhythm, it won't attract the worm
17:40<SpComb>whereas I could easily see someone photoshopping a saddle onto a Walrus
17:40<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause: There's no walruses in wales.
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17:41<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: i don't think they had photoshop when the name was introduced
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17:57<BWJM>I have a question... Why can't I remove a train station block when it says "Train in the way" when there clearly is not a train occupying that space?
17:57<blathijs>BWJM: Because there is a train in another part of the station?
17:58<BWJM>Lots... It's a 6x5 station.
17:58<BWJM>I have to clear them all out?
17:58<blathijs>BWJM: Yup, since the station will be removed in its entirety
17:58<BWJM>ugh. Oh well.
17:59<@Rubidium>or use the bulldozer to remove parts
17:59<blathijs>if you want to remove just a part of a station, use the build station tool and then click the bulldozer icon (IIRC)
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18:01<BWJM>I just cleared out all trains and rebuilt the station entirely.
18:01<BWJM>How do I prevent the domes on stations from appearing?
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19:01<entw>hi, newbie question: i'm in year 1965. how do i build electrified depots?
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19:04<@Rubidium>click on the rail thing, keep it pressed and notice the dropdown
19:04<FauxFaux>If it doesn't work, push harder.
19:06<Sacro>said the midwife
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: that link looks like an Obiwan in the date :p
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19:10<entw>thx, so easy ...
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19:37<DanMacK>Hello all
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20:07<SekiSelu>BWJM - In order to have flat platforms, when building your stations, build one train line at a time
20:08<SekiSelu>Rather than slapping down a 6x5, do 6 1x5s :)
20:09<SekiSelu>You can actually get some pretty funky looking stations without needing GRFs if you're inventive with that
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20:18<spoo>on an openttd map, where is the map origin
20:18<spoo>that is, the (0,0) tile?
20:18<+glx>use query tool
20:19<Sacro>it's at (0,0)
20:19<+glx>(I don't have the origin in my head, but the query tool can tell you)
20:21<Yexo>it's the topmost tile
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20:27<spoo>glx, thanks!
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20:32<spoo>and x seems to go sw<->ne
20:38<Eddi|zuHause>use the right-hand-rule
20:39<Eddi|zuHause>thumb is x-axis, index finger is y-axis, middle finger is z-axis
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20:55<Mazur>Is there a way to speed up those news popups? I can can hardly catch up with them just by bouncing on the space bar, so I feel, that by the time I get the message, the news is too late.
20:58<Eddi|zuHause>you can turn off the "unimportant" messages
21:14<Mazur>Like the closure announcements, which come after the fact.
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21:18<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19590 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix: [NewGRF] setting industry prop 0x24 to 0 caused empty station names
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21:40<piro>Hello. I have a quick question. I have two dock/truck loading stations separated by a lake
21:41<piro>And I noticed that if I have the ship just unload coal directly to the dock, I get about 8000 dollars. If I have it transfer the coal and have a truck deliver it to a power plant however, it seems to come out about the same
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21:43<piro>My question is, is there some advantage to delivering it directly to the dock over having a truck transfer it to the power plant?
21:46<Mazur>Depends on which is quicker, the faster it gets picked up,and the faster it gets delivered, the more it pays.
21:47<Mazur>There, I'm fully electric, now. Found out how to do it quickly and safely early on in the process. :-)
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22:04<piro>I just learned about coverage areas. Apparently the power plant was in the coverage area of the dock
22:05<moot>so...I can't wrap my head around signals. I've read the wiki page and it's just all incomprehensible
22:09<Mazur>Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't one supposed to be able to upgrade a bridge by building a bridge where the bridge is? So what cab be the reason I get "must remove the bridge first"?
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22:26<spoo>Mazur, try clicking on one end?
22:27<spoo>moot, signals divide the track into sections; 2 trains can not occupy the same segment...
22:30<De_Ghosty>lol piro
22:30<De_Ghosty>if the truck only carry it 3 tiles further your not gonna get much more
22:30<De_Ghosty>there is a distance and price graph in the game
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22:51<Mazur>Thanks, Spoo.
22:52<yuriks_>oh deadlocks, delicious deadlocks =P
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22:55<Mazur>I've got a nice little gridlock at one city up North, where the station has only 4 platforms, and there was little space to begin with.
22:55<Mazur>I think I'll leave that for tomorrow, I'm turning in.
22:56<piro>This game is so addicting
22:56<piro>Multiplayer with the girlfriend :D
22:56<Mazur>It is.
22:56<Mazur>Doubly addictive.
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23:01<yuriks_>Mazur: my trains decided to arrange themselves in a loop around a station meaning none could move and reach an exit from the loop
23:01<yuriks_>had to build a track sticking out from there to let one out and the thing started moving again
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23:02<yuriks_>anyone have tips to avoid "wait for full load" trains from clogging my stations?
23:03<yuriks_>there should be a 'except if a train I share an order with is already at the station' option
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23:50<piro>How do you tell how much a building will cost before you place it?
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---Logclosed Fri Apr 09 00:00:58 2010