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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-04-11

---Logopened Sun Apr 11 00:00:00 2010
00:10<NCommander>yuriks: er, passenger buses :-)
00:10<NCommander>yuriks: but if you make a lot of transfers, you can make your planes make an ASSTON with each trip. I have train runs also getting up words of 20,000 pounds per trip
00:22<yuriks>oh, I have some making about that, too
00:22<yuriks>they travel very far though
00:22<yuriks>so it probably balances out for me =P
00:29<mrruben5>for train length of 6 (TL3), how long should a prio be?
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00:35<SekiSelu>glx: Using the bulldozer works, but it's annoying that it leaves the track behind
00:35<SekiSelu>(He's long gone)
00:42<yuriks>SekiSelu: meh, it's easy enough to remove the track
00:42<SekiSelu>I'd guess that more often than not you mean to remove the track as well, and it's easy enough to replace it too :)
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01:38<NCommander>yuriks: its a bad sign that I can't spend money fast enough (I think I have bad macromanagement)
01:39<yuriks>NCommander: I have about 10kk and I have no idea what to do with it =P
01:39<NCommander>yuriks: I have 3 million
01:39<NCommander>er
01:39<NCommander>four
01:40<yuriks>yeah, me too
01:40<yuriks>(though I'm not playing atm)
01:44*NCommander built his first ship yard
01:44<yuriks>I only did truck and local buses
01:44<yuriks>most of the fun in the game if building the railroads
01:48<NCommander>Yeah
01:48<NCommander>I think I need to learn how to get every train to work with it set "wait for full load"
01:48<NCommander>wow
01:48<NCommander>boats suck
01:50<NCommander>but that was interesting
01:50*NCommander needs to really learn to make his RR run more smoothly
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01:57<yuriks>NCommander: just, don't have too many trains, or if you do, have wide stations
01:57<NCommander>yuriks: well, I didn't start with a lot ;-)
01:57<yuriks>and if even that's not enough, have a decent waiting area
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02:09<NCommander>yuriks: I guess the other question is how do I make cities grow?
02:10<yuriks>NCommander: stick buses and passenger services there
02:10<yuriks>if they're on the desert you also need food and water
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03:05<terinjokes>TrueBrain: I told you that if/when I was back on OSX I would look at some OSX issues... here I am
03:10<planetmaker>good morning
03:11<planetmaker>[09:08] <NCommander> [06:10:40] yuriks: but if you make a lot of transfers, you can make your planes make an ASSTON with each trip. I have train runs also getting up words of 20,000 pounds per trip <-- you should try longer distances
03:11<planetmaker>it's easy to make an income of ~300000 per round-trip
03:12<planetmaker>but it depends upon train length
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03:13<nighthawkcm>and speed - even a long coal train with a early steasm engine has a hard time making that much due to the extreme travel time
03:18<planetmaker>also true, yes
03:18<planetmaker>I was thinking of a ~12 tile ICE train
03:18<planetmaker>for inter-city passenger service which always finds sufficient passengers to unload and load fully without additional waiting time
03:19<planetmaker>but in my last game I introduced some AsiaStars which made an annual income of ~600000 which were only 5 tiles long (so 8 wagons)
03:20<nighthawkcm>Hmm.. I make 400k with each goods train, but that demands a running network - 5 TL
03:20<planetmaker>sounds aboug a decent one :-)
03:20<planetmaker>*about
03:20<planetmaker>of course good income requires good networks without much of a jam
03:25<nighthawkcm>no jamming at all at the moment
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04:18<NCommander>nighthawkcm: well, you can imporve the speed to an extent by doubleheading it
04:19<nighthawkcm>not the speed, it improves acceleration and changes the math how many tiles you climb without loosing speed.
04:19<NCommander>nighthawkcm: oh
04:20<nighthawkcm>the acceleration is important in tightly packed networks with many trains, every single one needs to go as fast to top speed as possible
04:20<NCommander>nighthawkcm: this game is really addictive, I don't remember the last time I played a game all night (I think Starcraft or Rollercoast Tycoon was the last one)
04:20<NCommander>and SimCity 2000 or maybe 3 was the last playable one IMHO
04:20<NCommander>*8000
04:20<NCommander>er
04:20<NCommander>3000
04:21<NCommander>nighthawkcm: yeah, I started running into that problem. My last game was my first successful network design.
04:21*NCommander experimented with stations that can only be approached in one direct off the mainline, large junctions, transfers, etc.
04:22<nighthawkcm>but if a loco has a max speed of 100 km/h you can't make it go faster by using a second one
04:22<NCommander>nighthawkcm: pity :-/
04:22<@peter1138>planetmaker, drawback, not "backdraw" :p
04:22*NCommander wonders if its cheating to use realworld acceleration since I don't level out the hills
04:22<nighthawkcm>hehe - the faster a train is, the bigger the curves have to be so it won't slow down on the ML or SL
04:22<planetmaker>:-)
04:23<planetmaker>thanks
04:23<NCommander>nighthawkcm: true, but I found I didn't have that issue at all except when a train did a u-turn
04:23<nighthawkcm>well, a train with two locos can usually take on 2 tiles of climbing or more
04:23<nighthawkcm>depending on the max speed of your trains
04:24<planetmaker>nighthawkcm: that depends heavily upon the engine power and more heavily upon the acceleration model
04:24<nighthawkcm>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Max_Curve_Speed
04:24<planetmaker>and also on the selected steepness of slopes
04:25<planetmaker>and the cargo weight factor
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04:27<nighthawkcm>well I play with the standard setup, not changing it
04:27*NCommander is interested in doing some online play but kinda afraid of sucking too much
04:27<NCommander>:-/
04:27<nighthawkcm>http://de.tinypic.com/r/2ebxq3q/5 Anyone have a idea how I could impürove that station exit of the lower station?
04:29*NCommander thinks
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04:31<NCommander>nighthawkcm: this might be the wrong answer, but you might be able to have the exits become steps and then more graduly have them merge together instead of having on running track sloping across all exits
04:32<NCommander>nighthawkcm: basically, have the top three tracks merge into one, and extend then the tracks in parallel having them merge down into one after some distance so the trains space themselves out
04:34<nighthawkcm>hmm.... that could work .... gonna save and try that.
04:34<NCommander>nighthawkcm: I'm not speaking from experience of any sort; the factory is unfourtnately in a losely position :-/
04:34<nighthawkcm>how long would the extensions need to be?
04:35<NCommander>nighthawkcm: averange train length would probably work best
04:35<NCommander>so basically
04:35<NCommander>you want this
04:35<NCommander>--------
04:35<NCommander>---------------------
04:35<NCommander>----------------------------
04:35<NCommander>--------------------------------------------
04:36<NCommander>(you can't do anyhting to improve the top three tracks, so that's always going to be a bottle neck unless you build tunnels over the factory
04:36<NCommander>er
04:36<NCommander>under
04:37<NCommander>If nothing else, more trains will move out of the station and into the exit lanes
04:37<nighthawkcm>well, the problemn with making it longer comes shortly after the station, I'll give a bigger screenie so you see ...
04:39<nighthawkcm>http://de.tinypic.com/r/27xl4s8/5
04:39<nighthawkcm>here we go, the stations in the lower right corner, and on the left you see the insertion into the LL5RR ML
04:40<NCommander>nighthawkcm: you seem to have plenty of room, I'm not sure I see the issue
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04:43<nighthawkcm>I get too close to the first insertion into the ML - slowing down trains with 2 turns
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04:44<NCommander>nighthawkcm: ugh, that's nasty since small step changes will be enough to upset the max speed
04:45<nighthawkcm>yepp
04:46<NCommander>nighthawkcm: may then instead of a bunch of steps, you'll have to make do with 2, the one created by the lines blocked by the factory, and another for everything else; it should still be an imporvement
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04:49<NCommander>If nothing else, more trains will move out of the station and into the exit lanes
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05:02<nighthawkcm>The solution came out different and I am still not happy with the trains behaviour - I dislike the patchoices by them but oh well ...
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05:04<nighthawkcm>http://de.tinypic.com/r/23rlh08/5 thats how it looks now
05:04<nighthawkcm>still trains seem to have a special like/dislike for certain ML's
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05:22<nighthawkcm>:-/ SLH 1 reaches capacity limit .... now how to upgrade a SLH and a ML there ... dammit
05:23<nighthawkcm>anyone got an image of a LLL5RRR to a SL LL_RR hub?
05:26<NCommander>nighthawkcm: that seems to work well, I assume exit performance is better?
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05:27*NCommander is thinking that he needs to build very large transfer stations with smaller feeder stations connecting off that one
05:27<nighthawkcm>yes, works better, but I start to have jams on the ML at SLH 1 - the inner L ML jams
05:28*NCommander has no clue how to properly build that
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05:49<Terkhen>hello
05:49<andythenorth>hi terkhen
05:50<fjb>Moin
05:50<andythenorth>Terkhen: would you like a new adventure in C++?
05:50<andythenorth>HandleLocomotiveSmokeCloud
05:55<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19601 /trunk/src/ (command.cpp network/network.cpp): -Fix: make the desync replay parse the "whole" string instead of everything up to the first space; make it log the sync state too
05:55<Terkhen>I'm already living a "great adventure" with C right now
05:55<Terkhen>what do you plan, smoke for RVs and ships?
05:59<fonsinchen>If I split an inlined method in declaration and definition, will the compiler still inline it?
06:00<fonsinchen>I'm surprised this is actually valid C++ ... :)
06:00<andythenorth>Terkhen: yes, smoke for RVs and ships. I started trying to figure out how to make HandleLocomotiveSmokeCloud generic, but it's way beyond me right now :o
06:04<Terkhen>to be really generic it should be defined at the vehicle class and called at some of its methods (something similar to how realistic acceleration works at GroundVehicle)
06:04<andythenorth>probably a project for another day :)
06:05<Terkhen>but first you should think about the problem of how to decide which RVs and ships use smoke and which ones doesn't... taking into account the current behaviour for trains too
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06:11<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19602 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: add the name of the command to the desync logs
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06:57<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19603 /branches/1.0/src/ (12 files in 4 dirs):
06:57<CIA-6>OpenTTD: [1.0] -Backport from trunk:
06:57<CIA-6>OpenTTD: - Fix: Desync debugging; false positives in the cache validity checks and saving/loading the command stream (r19601, r19600, r19596, r19593, r19592, r19589, r19587, r19586)
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07:22<@peter1138>hmm, how does the scenario list work?
07:22<@peter1138>it says it is in ~/.openttd/scenario/ but it is showing stuff from ~/.openttd/content_download/scenario/
07:23<@Rubidium>in the "default" path it'll show the downloaded stuff too
07:28<SpComb>hack
07:29<@Rubidium>seems SpComb just volunteered coding a non-hack
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07:38<mrruben5>Hmm, I was wondering
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07:40<mrruben5>If I have a drop roro and a pickup roro, both with the same overflow, can I give trains that want to unload stuff in the drop ror prio over trains that want to load stuff?
07:40<mrruben5>or do I need to make a second overflow?
07:42*NCommander sighs
07:42<NCommander>The AIs out pace me, and then out price me
07:42<NCommander>:-/
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08:03<fjb>mrruben5: Make a second overflow or try a second path from the overflow to the station and use way points to divide the trains.
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08:54<jess-tundra-sundra>hello. Is there a way to fusion to companies when playing multiplayer? Two humans who want to fusion their companies.
08:55<Eddi|zuHause>only when one goes bankrupt, i believe
08:56<Yexo>stop all vehicles, give all your money to the other company and wait for a year
08:56<Yexo>then you'll be banktupt
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09:12<jess-tundra-sundra>ok, but that strategy doesn't seem to be very good if I'm in av multiplayer game with many players. Maybe some other player buys the company :/
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09:18<De_Ghosty>there is no merger :o
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09:23<jess-tundra-sundra>too bad :)
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>the problem with using the single-player-method to join companies is that they are only hostile takeovers, the buyer decides he wants the company, the buyee has no option...
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>that's why it isn't allowed in multiplayer
09:30<jess-tundra-sundra>It would be nice to have to possibility to merge two companies if both parties accepted.
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10:16*Mazur is making a set of 12 arrows in 6 colours for addition to example layouts to help identify the various signals.
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10:19<Mazur>As a contribution.
10:20<DJNekkid>is it possible to use the cheats on a dedicated server?
10:20<frosch123>everyone will desync, but after rejoin it should be fine
10:20<DJNekkid>hehe
10:21<DJNekkid>im gonna start a server
10:21<DJNekkid>and i want to cheat some money :)
10:24<welshdragon>nice
10:24<welshdragon>is2.1.1 crashes on my windows
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10:53<welshdragon>http://dev.openttdcoop.org:81/issues/894 < am I being stupid?
10:54<__ln__>it is too early to say
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10:54<SpComb>copied trunk files over?
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10:57<SpComb>you shouldn't need to copy anything over to play a build that's a proper bundle
10:58<SpComb>make sure you have the base graphics files available in the correct global location, then just unzip and run the .exe
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11:02<Yexo>if you copied trunk files over that might be the problem, it's a very old build and at that time a base sound set without files (nosound) wasn't supported
11:02<Yexo>now nosound it part of trunk
11:02<Yexo>so if you copied nosound from current trunk to that old build it will indeed crash
11:04<welshdragon>ah
11:04<welshdragon>i told it not to replace the file
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11:05<Yexo>maybe it finds nosound in your downloaded content?
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11:12<tinyboss>Is this the right place to ask newbie questions? Why can't I build any more small airports after a certain (early) point in my game?
11:12<frosch123>go to advanced settings, and enable "keep small airport"
11:13<__ln__>that doesn't answer the 'why'.
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11:13<tinyboss>Ahh, so that's what "Airports never expire" does. __ln__, that's true, but frosch123 looked through my bad wording to figure out what I really wanted. Though I'm a bit curious about the reasoning, too.
11:14<frosch123>oh, because the small airport construction uses asbestos, which is no longer allowed
11:15<tinyboss>Haha. :-) By the way, this game is fantastic. I love sandbox games with real complexity. There aren't enough of them.
11:30<Mazur>Hear, hear, tinyboss.
11:44<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r19604 /trunk/src/stdafx.h: -Codechange: Reintroduce assert_tcompile().
11:44<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r19605 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Merge ExtractBits into EnumPropsT.
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12:36<Opensourcler>Hi
12:37<Opensourcler>Is one of the developers here?
12:38<CIA-6>OpenTTD: smatz * r19606 /trunk/src/network/network_gui.cpp: -Codechange: remove global variable pw_type
12:38<SmatZ>Opensourcler: yes
12:39-!-nighthawk_c_m [~nighthawk@pD9504648.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
12:40<Opensourcler>SmatZ, I've a complex question about your project.
12:40<PeterT>go ahead
12:41<Opensourcler>IT's opensource and that means, that I can put it on my website for download (togehter with the sourcecode) with a hint to the gnu-license, right?
12:41<PeterT>Ues
12:41<PeterT>Yes
12:41<SmatZ>Opensourcler: I am not a licence expert, but I think you can
12:41<Opensourcler>OK, many thx.
12:42<frosch123>best is to use the unmodified bundle, it has everything it needs
12:42<SmatZ>yeah :)
12:42<TrueBrain>depend how you define 'hint'
12:42<Yexo>question is: why would you want to offer it on your website if you haven't made any modifications? if you link to openttd.org you can make suer your users alwyas have the latest version
12:42<SmatZ>if you leave the package as it is, it contains readme and copying information
12:43<Opensourcler>"Hint" means, that the text says, taht this project is under the gnu-licens. gnu-would be a link and if you click it, you would read the license information.
12:44<Yexo>the licence is called gpl, not gnu
12:44<Yexo>and you'd probably have to mention the version too (2)
12:45<Opensourcler>Yexo, I want to put it on my website for the germans. Your site is only english and mybe this project will be more known.
12:45<Ammler>Opensourcler: simply link to openttd.org, your visitors will be thankful to download recent versions.
12:45<TrueBrain>then the least you can do is link to OpenTTD.org, not only the GPL
12:46<SpComb>openttd.org doesn't have multiple language versions?
12:46<Eddi|zuHause>... or SOMEONE could finally implement the website translations :p
12:46<SpComb>or it has the URLs for them, but no translated content
12:46<TrueBrain>it does in its core, just never translated and added, as we could never figure out how to represent the languages
12:46<TrueBrain>(someone was very much against flags ....)
12:46<frosch123>http://www.openttd.org/en/download-stable <- Opensourcler: unless you want to translate the OS selection, best is to link to that pagew
12:46<SpComb>Accept-Language: or whatever it was
12:47<frosch123>or well, http://www.openttd.org/de/download-stable would also do
12:47<@Rubidium>just leave out the /de/ or /en/. That works equally well
12:47<Yexo>in that case just link to
12:47<Yexo>http://www.openttd.org/download-stable
12:48<TrueBrain>when multi-language would be enabled, the last url auto redirects to the right language
12:48<Opensourcler>thx all for your help.
12:48-!-Plimmer [~Plimmer@0x573ef88c.lmvnqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd
12:49<Plimmer>I was just on a multiplayer server that had an addon called city-builder. That seemed like alot of fun, and I would like to host such a server myself for me and a couple of friends to have a game on.
12:50<Plimmer>I have been browsing the forums for instructions on how to do this, but I cant seem to find the right post/thread about it.
12:50<Plimmer>Can someone push me in the right direction?
12:50-!-Opensourcler [5b61ad5f@webchat.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]
12:51<Yexo>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=44319
12:51<Yexo>first result when googling for "openttd city-builder"
12:51<@Rubidium>oh, the "I'm amazed it actually works" patch?
12:51<Plimmer>I read that post, but it dosent mention anything about version 1.0
12:52<Plimmer>And I would like to play 1.0
12:52<Plimmer>post = thread
12:52<@Rubidium>they haven't updated it yet
12:52<Plimmer>Hrmm.. I played with my 1.0 client in a game where it was enabled
12:53<Plimmer>I guess that group of people havent released their internal version then
12:53<@Rubidium>then someone has a patch "updated" locally and not released that
12:53<Plimmer>Yeah.. Well, thats too bad. Seemed like alot of fun.
12:54<Plimmer>Is there some other patches that are worth mentioning?
12:54<frosch123>some of the goalserver guys are a bit vain and hardly release what they modified, as they cannot stand others hosting a similiar server and "stealing" their players
12:55<Plimmer>ohh
12:56<frosch123>at least i got that impression :)
12:56*Rubidium definitely got that impression too
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13:04*PeterT also
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13:17<CIA-6>OpenTTD: smatz * r19607 /trunk/src/network/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: use different packet types instead of packet subtypes
13:23<CIA-6>OpenTTD: smatz * r19608 /trunk/src/network/network_server.cpp: -Fix: do not kick client if he entered password and the password was cleared meanwhile
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13:25<CIA-6>OpenTTD: smatz * r19609 /trunk/src/network/network.cpp: -Fix: do not print 'Connection lost' message for clients who failed to enter correct password
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13:32<CIA-6>OpenTTD: smatz * r19610 /trunk/src/network/ (core/tcp_game.h network.cpp network_server.cpp): -Codechange: rename STATUS_AUTH to STATUS_AUTHORIZED
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13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19611 /trunk/src/lang/indonesian.txt:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: indonesian - 11 changes by fanioz
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13:50<NoobCp>http://wiki.openttd.org/MagLev and http://wiki.openttd.org/Lev1_%27Leviathan%27 seem to contradict when the train becomes available
13:52<@Rubidium>there's a randomisation in the introduction date of 18 months, so I guess the first maglev is introduced between late 2020 and early 2022
13:53<@Rubidium>toyland's maglev is designed in 2022 though
13:54<NoobCp>Hm, cool
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14:03<saLOUt>Ammler: did you send the opensuse-games-openttd-rpm-builder the fix (missing obm files and missing ai folder)?
14:03<Ammler>yep :-)
14:04<Ammler>but the official guys don't ususally package on the weekends
14:04<saLOUt>Ammler: he has sent me a mail before 4 hours, that he is awaiting your fix
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14:06<Ammler>ok :-)
14:06<Ammler>he declined my first patch, because I didn't update the changelog ;-)
14:06<Ammler>but I committed a 2nd
14:07<Ammler>(sr#37671)
14:08-!-|Terkhen| [~Terkhen@68.69.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #openttd
14:09<Ammler>https://build.opensuse.org/request/diff/37671
14:10-!-Polygon [~Poly@n15-60.dsl.vianetworks.de] has joined #openttd
14:11<saLOUt>Ammler: thank you
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14:45-!-mystic [~mystic@5355E593.cable.casema.nl] has joined #openttd
14:46<mystic>Hey hey
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14:48<Sacro>we're the monkeys?
14:51-!-Splex [~splex@n219078149145.netvigator.com] has joined #openttd
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>... what a stupid song...
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15:12<Devedse>When you have 2 tracks of train rails and they need to fuse together to one, is it possible to have one line always let go first till there's for example no train on that line for 20 length?
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15:13<planetmaker>Devedse: yes
15:13<Devedse>how :)
15:13<planetmaker>Search the openttdcoop wiki for prio(rities)
15:13<Devedse>thanx
15:13<planetmaker>Using advanced signaling basically, abusing pre-signals
15:13<planetmaker>We use it in every game ;-)
15:14<Phazorx>http://blog.openttdcoop.org/2007/04/28/non-blocking-sl-to-ml-mergers/ << Devedse
15:14<Devedse>hehe
15:15-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1F8EB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
15:15<planetmaker>also our public server archive has countless examples on them :-)
15:16<Phazorx>at least last 140 games :)
15:16<Devedse>well, what is your public server :)
15:16<Devedse>i will join it and find out ;P
15:18<planetmaker>Devedse: join #openttdcoop
15:19<Devedse>just joined it
15:19<planetmaker>:-)
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15:19<Devedse>for some reason my openttd wont get the serverlist ;(
15:19<planetmaker>router, firewall, not both directions for both ports
15:20<Devedse>restart fixes everything =3
15:26-!-ptr [~peter@c213-89-142-224.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #openttd
15:28<KenjiE20>lol, openttd on 1chan
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15:41<planetmaker>http://paste.openttd.org/225536 <-- configure --with-ccache --enable-universal fails with libtimidity while ./configure http://paste.openttd.org/225537 just works
15:41<planetmaker>I wonder why it fails for ALL three targets of the universal build...
15:46<aber>what if you remove 2 targets?
15:46<Devedse>lol i did something wrong prioritizing, now it takes even longer ;P
15:49-!-oskari89 [~oskari89@212-149-205-119.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit []
15:52<Devedse>k something seems to work now :)
15:53<planetmaker>aber: a universal build has (for OpenTTD) those three targets...
15:53<planetmaker>otherwise it'd not be universal.
15:54<planetmaker>also each fails separately at the same place... so... it must be something --enable-universal does.
15:55<aber>right, there is a file... it contains the targets. If you delete 2 if them, you have universal without-universal
15:55<planetmaker>from what I see, I'd just see it then fail once (for the remaining target) instead of three times, once for each target.
15:56<aber>what do you compile? head?
15:57<planetmaker>yup
16:02<planetmaker>hm, let's see what --without-libtimidity gives us. Btw: --with-libtimidity is not mentioned in configure help :-)
16:07<aber>my svn client is broken, my compiler is broken and the libraries i need are not universal.
16:08<Jolteon>Sounds like a bad day for you.
16:08<planetmaker>aber: hehe :-)
16:08<Devedse>planetmaker, i think i fixed prioritizing, im gonna see what happens ;)
16:09<planetmaker>I compiled (nearly?) all my libraries at least as i386 / x64 yesterday
16:09<planetmaker>I guess I need to teach them ppc, too
16:11<planetmaker>ok, it's definitely libtimidity. --without-libtimidity gives the linker failure which I expected due to non-ppc libraries
16:11<planetmaker>strange.
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16:16<amalloy>hi all, just started playing recently...is there a simple explanation for oil refineries in FIRS to accept oil but not send fuel or chemicals to the station?
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16:18<Eddi|zuHause>did you send a vehicle to pick them up yet?
16:18<planetmaker>refinery not properly covered? or ^
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16:19<amalloy>yes, i've sent a vehicle
16:20<amalloy>and the refinery seems to be covered - it accepts the oil, and produces fuel, but transports 0% of it
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>is your vehicle refitted properly?
16:20<amalloy>oh! that's probably it
16:20<amalloy>thanks, i forgot to do that
16:21*andythenorth thinks it would be useful to show current consist refit in more places (like the orders window)
16:21-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f4117.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:21<andythenorth>I have made the same mistake many many times
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>gnah... this sound file is badly encoded...
16:25-!-|Terkhen| is now known as Terkhen
16:28<Terkhen>andythenorth: I have been thinking about that too... the problem is that trains can have wagons refitted to different cargos
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>and they can be refitted by orders
16:32*planetmaker considers the latter an especially interesting feature :-)
16:33*planetmaker would even like a feature to swap wagons by setting appropriate orders
16:33<planetmaker>like "get or buy 5 coal wagons and de-couple the 5 goods wagons"
16:34<planetmaker>it's the player's problem, if too many wagons then accumulate in a certain depot ;-)
16:47<andythenorth>planetmaker: played railroad tycoon 2 or 3? 'wagons' don't really exist, you just get whatever consist you need at each station
16:47<planetmaker>andythenorth: nope, I haven't
16:48<andythenorth>the approach makes a lot of sense in that game
16:48<andythenorth>but maybe not in OTTD
16:50<Phazorx>RT2/3 approach is more realistic but totally different concept
16:50<Phazorx>at same time it makes sense
16:50<Phazorx>concepts of route is attached to engine, while cars are under cargo
16:51<Phazorx>so engine gets attached to what needs to be moved at station rather than waiting for cargo to be loaded
16:51<Phazorx>like it happens IRL
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16:52<Phazorx>but RT is economic simulator while TTD is engineering modeling
16:53<amalloy>i'm having different problems with my FIRS refinery now...when i drop off 270k liters of oil, it produces only 20k liters of chemicals and 29k liters of fuel oil. it should be much higher at 6t/8t, shouldn't it?
16:55<amalloy>the result, of course, is that my chemical-carrying trains have a negative profit, and the plastics station turning chemical into goods produce like 5 crates of goods
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16:56<planetmaker>amalloy: they only produce that efficiently, if they probably also get engineering supplies at the refinery
16:56<planetmaker>also it means - IIRC - that 8t input will produce 6t for both combined
16:57<amalloy>really? why isn't the engineering-supplies bit mentioned on the industry screen like it is for coal mines?
16:59<Terkhen>IIRC refineries don't accept engineering supplies
16:59<andythenorth>the refinery just turns oil into fuel oil & chemicals
17:00<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/industries?economy=point_1_release#oil_refinery
17:00<amalloy>right, that's what i thought. so i don't see why it's producing so little
17:01<andythenorth>amalloy: I'm checking the code now...
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17:02<andythenorth>@calc 540/2
17:02<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 270
17:02<andythenorth>@calc 270 * (6/8)
17:02<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 202.5
17:02<andythenorth>@calc 540 * (6/8)
17:02<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 405
17:03<andythenorth>@calc 405/2
17:03<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 202.5
17:03<andythenorth>hmmm
17:03<andythenorth>I get 89k fuel oil out for 540k oil in
17:03<andythenorth>which is wrong
17:03<andythenorth>but my station rating is only 53%
17:04<andythenorth>@calc (89/53) * 100
17:04<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 167.924528302
17:04<andythenorth>still wrong
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17:05<andythenorth>there are occasional errors in FIRS industry production due to doing maths in hex
17:05<andythenorth>but the oil refinery does seem to be losing cargo somewhere
17:05<amalloy>yeah, i just looked at the source myself - it looks like a pain to work with
17:06<andythenorth>:)
17:06<andythenorth>industry production code took about 6 months to write so far :)
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17:10<amalloy>i can believe it. at least i've found the refinery code now; i was trying to look at templates, cause i didn't think to look for code under sprites/
17:10<andythenorth>amalloy: I won't be able to find the issue tonight. The 29k you got - is that at the station or in the industry window?
17:10<amalloy>station
17:10<andythenorth>what station rating do you have?
17:11<amalloy>like...hrm, 30? i still don't really understand how to optimize for station rating
17:12<amalloy>i'm not sure what the industry window says, because it usually goes back to 0 in a big hurry as the month ends
17:12<andythenorth>@calc 270/2
17:12<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 135
17:12<andythenorth>@calc 135 * (6/8)
17:12<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 101.25
17:12<SekiSelu>Question if someone could: Is there an explanation of how the stack interacts with String Codes somewhere? Trying to get industries to report "X tons of Y cargo delivered last month" but I can't find a reference on the ttdpatch wiki
17:12<andythenorth>@cacl 101 * .3
17:12<andythenorth>@calc 101 * 0.3
17:12<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 30.3
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17:13<andythenorth>amalloy: I think the numbers you're seeing are due to the low station rating + the occasional rounding error due to not having proper maths available
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17:13<andythenorth>SekiSelu: I could help you but not tonight - bed time. FIRS uses industry window string codes and the text stack extensively
17:13<amalloy>okay. so i need...what, more trains at the station, to improve the rating, which will then increase output? i don't understand ratings yet
17:14<SekiSelu>I've been reading through the FIRS code, and I now have a new text string for each industry, it just always reports 0t cargo
17:14<SekiSelu>I'm not sure how to put t cargo delivered onto the stack so i can read it off
17:14<andythenorth>store it into a register (100h-105h)
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>amalloy: you should try to have always a train waiting
17:15<andythenorth>SekiSelu: http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Callbacks#Show_additional_text_in_industry_window_3A_
17:15<nighthawk_c_m>ammaloy: have a train waiting all the time - gives natuarally a rating of around 70%
17:16<andythenorth>SekiSelu: look at the FIRS primary industry template
17:16<SekiSelu>Durr. Must've missed that paragraph. Now I just need to figure out how to get that info into those registers ;)
17:16<SekiSelu>Andy: Thanks, I'll do that
17:16<andythenorth>template_primary_action23.pnfo
17:17<amalloy>i see. i've been not bothering to increase #trains unless there's too much cargo there for my current trains to ship. but it sounds like adding more trains causes there to be more cargo?
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17:18<SekiSelu>Amalloy: Any time where a train is not at the station will reduce your station rating, meaning less cargo will be delivered. I try to always have 1 train actively loading at each station
17:18<planetmaker>amalloy: use "full load"
17:18<SekiSelu>And yes, always use full load :)
17:18<amalloy>okay. i'll fire up a new game and try that out
17:18<amalloy>thanks all
17:19<andythenorth>SekiSelu: to understand that template it will help you to know that callbacks run when cargo is delivered, and at the end of each month
17:19<andythenorth>when the cargo is delivered, the amount is added to a value in persistent storage
17:20<andythenorth>at the end of each month this value is zeroed
17:20<andythenorth>you need pretty much the same thing, but copying the value to another persistent storage register before you zero it
17:21<andythenorth>catch me another time if that makes no sense....I'm off :)
17:21<andythenorth>good night
17:21<SekiSelu>Thanks andy, and good night
17:21<SekiSelu>Is it possible to emulate that without enabling the advanced production scheme...
17:21<andythenorth>no
17:21<andythenorth>well maybe.
17:21<andythenorth>but I don't know tonight ;)
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17:21<SekiSelu>That's the trick i'm trying to pull :)
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17:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19612 /trunk/src/saveload/waypoint_sl.cpp: -Fix [FS#3756] (r3212): crash when opening a savegame with a waypoint from around 0.4.0
17:47<PeterT>who was savegames from 0.4.0? :-P
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>why wouldn't people have savegames from 0.4.0?
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>i still have TTO savegames
17:48<PeterT>hmm
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>unfortunately not my very first game...
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>damn world editor update overwrote that with the autosave
17:54<KenjiE20>I think I still have TTDLX saves that went to TTDP, and still load in OpenTTD :)
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>i didn't play TTD(P) very much
18:05<nighthawk_c_m>dunno if TTDP actually has anything fancy that openTTD doesn't have
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18:06<@Rubidium>it has
18:06<planetmaker>nighthawk_c_m: it has. But let's not discuss it.
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18:06<CIA-6>OpenTTD: smatz * r19613 /trunk/src/network/network_server.cpp: -Fix [FS#3755]: possible invalid read when server moves client to spectators before he finishes joining
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18:14<Mazur>I need help with redesigning a badly build station ( http://53551a99.cable.casema.nl/pics/BadBuilt_Station.png ), Anyone care to advise?
18:18<Mazur>I think I should switch to presignals and prioritising, which I've been reading up on over the weekend, but I'm somewhat anxious.
18:19<Eddi|zuHause>rule #1 when redesigning a live junction: make a savegame :p
18:19<Mazur>That's where this is, right after the savegame.
18:19<Yexo>swap the signals and switches on the southeast end of the station
18:20<Yexo>easiest way to do that is where the current switches (2 tiles from the station) are, lower that tile and place signals on those tiles, then the switches on the next tile, then the tunnel where it already is
18:20<Mazur>It's a hybrid station, a terminus and RoRo from the SE, and a RoRo from the W.
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>you are definitely missing some signals directly south of the station
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>and north of the station you don't have path signals, that is generally a bad idea
18:22<Eddi|zuHause>and for every incoming track you should have 2-3 platforms, with 4 tracks means you should have 8-12 platforms
18:23<Mazur>The path siganls north are in front of the road.
18:24<Eddi|zuHause>i see the signals, but they are not path signals
18:24<Eddi|zuHause>at least the last one
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18:24<Eddi|zuHause>and the other ones should be two way, while they look to be one way
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18:25<Mazur>You're right! They are combo signals, they were intended to be path signals.
18:28<Mazur>I have a bouncy mouse (meaning it often activates twice on a single click. ) Which has millions of times made me end up where I don't want to be, "one click to far<".
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18:30<Mazur>Ok, lets see what happens when they are righted. Then I can start building the 8 platform replacement in the open to the SW.
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18:30<Mazur>No wonder that city holds me to be mediocre.
18:30<Devedse>Someone gave me a link of a tool to auto update openttd (also to the openttd coop server), can he link that again (i lost the link)
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>"it works great, only one crash" <- some people have really low standards...
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18:31<Devedse>nvm, found it again (in my logs)
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18:46<__ln__>how does one call to a US phone number expressed as "650-xxx-yyyy"?
18:46<__ln__>from abroad +1-650-... i guess, what about over there?
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18:50<SmatZ>US is superior
18:50<SmatZ>you don't call US, US calls you
18:51<PeterT>:-D
18:52<__ln__>i haven't told US my number
18:53<__ln__>oh, actually i have
18:54<FauxFaux>You can just dial 650-..
18:54<__ln__>on a cellphone too?
18:55<PeterT>yes
18:55<Mazur>Ok stopped the two waiting trains, fixed the lights, set them going again.
18:55<__ln__>roger
18:56<Mazur>And I finally wsas allowed to remove the road direrctly beside the station, placed a bridge for the traffic there, and moved the signals under the bridge.
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18:58<Mazur>Like so: http://53551a99.cable.casema.nl/pics/Built_Station.png
18:59<Eddi|zuHause>i'd put a junction there...
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19:28<Mazur>Eddi: Three X connections, you mean?
19:29<Eddi|zuHause>Mazur: yes
19:30<Mazur>Just SW of the bridge, yes, That's possible, now.
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19:48<Mazur>SE, of course.
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19:55<De_Ghosty>hey
19:55<De_Ghosty>when debugging
19:56<De_Ghosty>say i crash at 00001562c3 where it tries to divide by 0
19:56<De_Ghosty>how do i trace the
19:56<De_Ghosty>what u call it
19:57<Eddi|zuHause>you need to compile with debug symbols
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20:09<De_Ghosty>:o ok
20:09<SmatZ>De_Ghosty: do you have recent trunk?
20:10<SmatZ>oh you are not talking about OTTD :)
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20:18<lennard>pfft, I distinctly remember it being three hours before now, when I last looked at the time half an hours ago
20:22<Terkhen>good night
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21:09<XeryusTC>why is gradual_loading not a network save setting anymore?
21:10<XeryusTC>i've never had problems with changing it during a network game before
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21:21<Eddi|zuHause>@openttd commit 19066
21:21<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Commit by yexo :: r19066 trunk/src/table/settings.h (2010-02-09 16:22:13 UTC)
21:21<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: -Fix: settings that are part of the "ttdpatch flags" can cause desyncs if they're changed in network games
21:22<Eddi|zuHause>looks to me like newgrfs can read the setting
21:28<XeryusTC>hmm, but every client would update it at the same time, wouldn't they?
21:29<Mazur>For the highest throughput on extremely busy stations, what is in the end the best signalling method, path or pre?
21:29<SekiSelu>Path, IMO
21:30<PeterT>Eddi|zuHause: Did you really memorize the openttd commits, or did you search online first?
21:31<Eddi|zuHause>XeryusTC: those details are probably better asked to the author of the commit
21:31<mrruben5>mazur: split up the loading bays in pairs of 4, after that add PBS
21:31<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: yes.
21:31<PeterT>Eddi|zuHause: yes to which question?
21:31<Eddi|zuHause>to the question you asked.
21:32<PeterT>I asked two questions
21:32<PeterT>Did you really memorize the openttd commits?
21:32<PeterT>Did you search online first?
21:36<Eddi|zuHause>no, you did not.
21:36<Mazur>I ask, because I'm building a replacement station for a going to be extremely busy station, that is both an and of the line and a station along the way, a chimera station, as I call it, and I wish for all the traffic to use all the platforms, but give higher priority on platforms on the "own" side of incoming traffic.
21:37<Eddi|zuHause>there was only one question mark, hence you only asked one question
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21:39<Eddi|zuHause>Mazur: for the low to medium stations you should use path signals, to the high throughput ones you have bigger problems than signals...
21:43<Mazur>Which is why I wish to grasp the signal part so finely, early on.
21:44<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: svn blame src/table/settings.h | grep gradual | awk '{ system( "svn log -r " $1 ) }'
21:44<PeterT>Wow.
21:44<PeterT>You know your way around bash tools
21:45<Eddi|zuHause>... if you think THAT is impressive...
21:48<Mazur>Here's the new project: http:/53551A99.cable.casema.nl/pics/NewStation.png
21:51<Eddi|zuHause>your url is malformatted
21:51<Mazur>Rather http://53551A99.cable.casema.nl/pics/NewStation.png
21:58<Eddi|zuHause>looks very boring...
21:59-!-mrruben5 [~mrruben5@s5594146e.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: mrruben5]
22:00<Mazur>Traffic wishing to pass the station by iis going through a tunnel down the middle, so that area is free for But if it's path signals, that handle the highest loads the best, I'll sstick to that, and I know how to do it, I think, it's jjus I saw someone experienced some time agoi claining that sometimes path signals are not tha way to go, or rather, that an exclusive PBS stance is not his.
22:01<Mazur>It is, it's all kids sruff, I'm still a noob.
22:01<Mazur>Still my first game.
22:03<Mazur>But when younger and wiser men are available, I'm not above asking for advice. :-D
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22:15<Mazur>The same without transparancies: http://53551A99.cable.casema.nl/pics/NewStation2.png
22:32<amalloy>so has anyone else noticed that the FIRS refinery produces half as much output as it should?
22:33<amalloy>or wait, for multi-output industries, maybe i don't understand how the output comes
22:34<amalloy>if the refinery says it will produce 6t for each 8t in, does that mean 6t each of chemicals and fuel, or 3t each?
22:37<amalloy>(if the latter, i humbly submit that that is not enough. it has taken me over a year to fill up a single train's worth of fuel oil)
22:42-!-mrruben5 [~mrruben5@s5594146e.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: mrruben5]
22:52<devilsadvocate>amalloy, oil is expensive!
22:52<devilsadvocate>fossil fuels and the such
22:57<Eddi|zuHause>amalloy: i believe andythenorth wondered about that earlier
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23:04*fjb wonders how you would get 12t (6t chemicals + 6t fuel) from 8t oil.
23:08<devilsadvocate>lol
23:08<SirSquidness>Additives.
23:08<SirSquidness>Like water
23:09<SirSquidness>or misc other chemicals
23:09<devilsadvocate>the additives are oil based too
23:09<SirSquidness>depends on the chemical being produced
23:09<devilsadvocate>oil and water are immiscble :\
23:09*SirSquidness goes back to idling
23:10<Eddi|zuHause>you realize that things get heavier when they burn
23:10<devilsadvocate>not really
23:10<fjb>But not when refining them.
23:10<devilsadvocate>the total mass increases
23:11<devilsadvocate>but its gas
23:11<devilsadvocate>unless the released gasses are reabsorbed, they wont
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23:13<Eddi|zuHause>when you break long carbon chains, you have to add hydrogen at these places... doesn't matter that much, but it's slightly heavier afterwards
23:15<NoobCp>There wasn't a limit to how much goods, mail and passangers an area of city accepts right?
23:15<fjb>But you get many other stuff when refining oil. So I guess 3t chemicals + 3t fuel =6t output from 8t oil input is correct.
23:16<fjb>NoobCp: right
23:16<Eddi|zuHause>oil is not only transformed into fuel. also stuff like plastics or asphalt
23:17<fjb>That does not contradict what I wrote.
23:18<Eddi|zuHause>it wasn't supposed to...
23:19<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, the PBI refineries start out with 50% fuel and 50% plastics, but they can focus on one if the other isn't transported
23:19<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know what firs is supposed to do
23:19<amalloy>afaict FIRS just throws away anything you're not transporting
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23:37<terinjokes>i forgot I was in the openttd channel...
---Logclosed Mon Apr 12 00:00:01 2010