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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-04-14

---Logopened Wed Apr 14 00:00:03 2010
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00:40*MeCooL Brb Working
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02:25<Terkhen>good morning
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02:33<planetmaker>good morning
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02:46<ccfreak2k>http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Avoiding-Continuums-Bits.aspx#PPic3
02:46<ccfreak2k>In case anyone missed it.
02:46<dihedral>morning pm
02:47<planetmaker>morning dihedral :-)
02:47<planetmaker>How's lif? :-)
02:47<dihedral>crap - cannot ssh to my server :-S
02:47<dihedral>^^
02:47<dihedral>but other than that i am doing ok
02:48<planetmaker>good to hear the latter :-)
02:48<planetmaker>about the first: oom issues or what's with your server?
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02:57<amalloy>can someone explain to me why the signaling at http://malloys.org/~akm/train.png doesn't work? it seems like it's straight out of the examples, but it only half-works: trains entering the right platform prevent other trains from getting to the left platform, but the other way round it works
03:01<Mazur>I can't.
03:02<Mazur>But then again, I'm a dead noob, myself.
03:02<Mazur>:-)
03:02<Keyboard_Warrior>amalloy, lets seee
03:02<Keyboard_Warrior>i call abuse on pbs signals
03:04<Keyboard_Warrior>Mazur, might be because the train waiting to enter, needs to exit upwards
03:04<Keyboard_Warrior>instead of down
03:04<SirSquidness>Mazur: click on the train waiting to enter
03:04<Keyboard_Warrior>where as the lower platform only lets you go down
03:04<SirSquidness>see if it says "waiting for free path"
03:04<amalloy>it does
03:04<elmz>amalloy: try having 1 square of straight track behind the station.
03:04<Cadde>Are you missing a piece of track?
03:04<amalloy>behind, as in before entry, or after exit?
03:05<elmz>behore entry
03:05<Keyboard_Warrior>amalloy, i figure if you add a track for the lower platform
03:05<elmz>*before
03:05<Keyboard_Warrior>going to the gigant intersection thingy
03:05<SirSquidness>amalloy: tell the train to turn around twice
03:05<Keyboard_Warrior>it will be happy about using the lower platform
03:05<SirSquidness>that will make it move
03:05<Cadde>amalloy: I see you have an exiting way that isn't connected to the leftmost platform
03:05<SirSquidness>^ goo point
03:05<Keyboard_Warrior>yes, thats my thoughts
03:05<amalloy>ah, that's a good point
03:06<Keyboard_Warrior>also, you might want to make that presignal 1way only
03:06<Keyboard_Warrior>i think that prevents trains from turning
03:06<Keyboard_Warrior>and waiting eternatly for free path
03:06<Keyboard_Warrior>the entry one that is
03:06<Keyboard_Warrior>err
03:06<Keyboard_Warrior>pbs signal
03:06<Keyboard_Warrior>ctrl click on it once with the signal tool on
03:07<Keyboard_Warrior>to make it a 1 way pbs signal
03:07<amalloy>i think you're right re the missing track, but i don't see why the pbs should be one-way. the pathfinder penalizes going the wrong way, and there's a one-way signal right behind it anyway
03:07<SirSquidness>might also want to look in to doing a little bit of work and make the entry to that station longer before it joins the mainline
03:07<SirSquidness>perhaps split before the trunnel entry
03:07<Keyboard_Warrior>also learn about cl
03:07<Keyboard_Warrior>45-45 degree corners == SLOOOOW
03:07<amalloy>cl?
03:07<Keyboard_Warrior>corner lenght
03:08<amalloy>oh, yeah, i know. i try to avoid those but honestly just making a 3-way junction is challenging enough for now
03:08<amalloy>once i get more practice i'll make efficient ones
03:08<Cadde>I would also suggest that but my gut feelign tells me he will learn about all this in due time.
03:08<Keyboard_Warrior>Cadde, well good building practices starts early, methinks
03:08<Cadde>My brother hates me nitpickong on his building style
03:09<Cadde>After all, it's a game and we all started "ugly"
03:09<elmz>I'm a sucker for symmetry ^^
03:09<Keyboard_Warrior>Cadde, sure, but when people play for years doing it wrong because they dont know better
03:09<Cadde>They could
03:09<Keyboard_Warrior>i prefer telling them the right way as soon as i can :P
03:09<Cadde>My goal was to improve everything eventually
03:10<Cadde>It ended up with me building junctions that took some 200 x 200 tiles
03:10<Cadde>Until i realized they wouldn't fit anywhere
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03:10<elmz>hehe, I played for ages simply copying the TDD AI (without the absurd elements that is)
03:11<elmz>when I figured out the whole thing with double tracks and junctions I was like "WOW" ^^
03:11<Keyboard_Warrior>elmz, heh, i mostly learned by copying people in online games
03:11<Cadde>But it was a 3 track 4 way junction with LONG trains and 6 tile turns
03:11<Keyboard_Warrior>reading stuff on the internet.
03:11<Keyboard_Warrior>and asking in game with signs what stuff did
03:12<elmz>Keyboard_Warrior: it was back in original TTD, not much online play back then ^^
03:12<Cadde>... With load balancers btw
03:12<Keyboard_Warrior>elmz, admitedtly :p
03:12<Keyboard_Warrior>Cadde, 6tile turns still shouldnt require a 200x200 area
03:12<Keyboard_Warrior>unless you're being way innefficient :p
03:12<elmz>more advanced stuff I learned from orudge's site and openttdcoop later on ^^
03:13<Cadde>How about supporting some 150 trains a minute?
03:13<Cadde>Then it would seem quite efficient
03:13<Keyboard_Warrior>the largest junction i ever saw, was a 5 way junction with cl8
03:14<Keyboard_Warrior>Cadde, efficient sure, but you could cram more trains into that space with a bit of thinking ahead when building
03:14<Cadde>Too bad i don't have the savegames for that anymore.
03:14<Keyboard_Warrior>that junction was so obtuse and huge, you couldnt fit it all on your monitor when zoomed in
03:14<Keyboard_Warrior>and trying to work out how it worked to do modifications on it
03:14<Keyboard_Warrior>was a nightmare :p
03:14<elmz>in my latest game I have quad main lines (4 tracks each direction) and I have 4-way junctions with cl5. my biggest ones so far ^^
03:16<Cadde>The sweet thing about the junction was that only 0.5% of all trains entering it actaully had to stop at a signal
03:16<elmz>what junction are we talking about? :)
03:17<amalloy>two different junctions in parallel, methinks
03:17<Cadde>And that 0.5% (which wasn't actually 0.5 but you know, guesstimate) bugged me to no end. I just wanted it to flow endlessly.
03:17<Cadde>... Enough of that!
03:18<Cadde>On a side note, Cargodist has lost it's mind. It wants to send 1,000 passengers by bus to a bus station in the middle of nowhere. All this while a train that can take 520 passengers comes by every 2 minutes.
03:19<amalloy>there's a tourist trap at the bus station
03:20<elmz>lol @ the Avoiding Continuums article ^^ the guy wanting an oxygen sensor for his car clearly shouldn'r have gone to the Zimbabwean amazon ^^
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03:22<amalloy>so i have an interesting option available to me here, and i don't know if it's any good. i have a steel mill at station A, and station B is next to an ore mine as well as a factory. does it make sense to have a train carry steel to B, refit for ore, and come back to A? or should i just use twice as many trains?
03:22<Cadde>Wait, is it even possible to refit a train with steel trollies to iron ore?
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03:23<elmz>I'd do twice the trains. AND two separate stations at the factory end.
03:23<amalloy>oh hrm, maybe it's not. i thought it was cause i keep misreading the capacities of the wagons
03:24<elmz>you don't want steel trains going to the factory to have to wait for iron ore trains to load
03:24<Cadde>However it would be sweet if one could detach it's wagons and pick up another set of wagons.
03:25<amalloy>but surely one twice-as-large station is just as good as two stations, right?
03:25<amalloy>unless for some reason i had way too many trains waiting to load, i guess
03:25<Cadde>It all depends on the situation amalloy, if traffic is light i would opt for using a few platforms
03:25<elmz>should be okay as long as you have more platforms than iron ore trains
03:26<elmz>or, loading trains in general
03:26<amalloy>right
03:27<elmz>at a factory I normally have separate stations for unloading and loading trains.
03:27<amalloy>yeah. if i end up actually supplying all its materials i'll do that too
03:27<elmz>same with sawmill, oil refineries etc
03:27<Cadde>Drag&Drop, non uniform stations and max station spread 64 is nice incase one didn't know about that
03:27<amalloy>so far i only have steel
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03:28<amalloy>but this is the first game i've even managed to get a 1x1 track from one side of the map to the other. /later/ will come more efficient junctions and stations
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03:35<elmz>amalloy: what size map?
03:35-!-Mazur [~mazur@53551A99.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
03:35<amalloy>whatever the default is
03:35<amalloy>i can see all four edges at the widest zoom
03:35<elmz>I wouldn¨t know what that is ^^
03:36<amalloy>but only just
03:36<Cadde>256 i guess
03:36<amalloy>sounds about right
03:36<elmz>256 is the old TDD size at least
03:36<Cadde>And widest zoom depends on your resolution.
03:37<amalloy>oh, i guess it would. 1024x768
03:37<Cadde>1024x768 judging by the SS
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03:37*holyduck slaps Keyboard_Warrior for internet dying
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03:38<elmz>I like bigger maps, I normally play 2048x2048. but too bad the map generator is useless for that size maps
03:38*Cadde feels a very strong urge to play on 32768 x 32768 maps.
03:38<holyduck>so speaking of stations, i love making gigant fake docs.
03:38<elmz>totally litters the map with towns and industries
03:38<holyduck>elmz, also that kind of map is really too huge to trully fill with trains
03:38<Cadde>Create custom scenario
03:38<elmz>Cadde: oh yes bring it on :D
03:38<holyduck>before your pc starts breaking up :P
03:38<amalloy>incidentally, the choochoo and pathzilla AIs don't entirely work for me. choochoo builds nonsense broken networks, and pathzilla plays great but crashes eventually. how do i report this?
03:38<Cadde>Also, ECS doesn't litter the map
03:39<amalloy>oh! and what is ECS? i'm always afraid to try it in case it conflicts with something else i've added
03:39<Cadde>ECS (Extended Cargo Scheme
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03:39<elmz>holyduck: nah, I have played a 2048 map and filled it with several thousand trains :P
03:39<Cadde>http://wiki.openttd.org/ECS_Vectors
03:40<Cadde>It's a NewGRF
03:40<elmz>Cadde: I always make my own scenarios
03:40<Cadde>(duh)
03:41<holyduck>elmz, well its more of a internet problem i gues
03:41<Cadde>And when you hit many random industries the GRF manages how many of each there is
03:41<holyduck>in a sp game, you dont have to deal with other clients wanting the stuff aswell
03:41<holyduck>and knowing whats going on
03:42<planetmaker>[09:38] <amalloy> incidentally, the choochoo and pathzilla AIs don't entirely work for me. choochoo builds nonsense broken networks, and pathzilla plays great but crashes eventually. how do i report this? <-- in the respective AI's thread in the forums
03:42<Cadde>Currently i am running with Chill's 4.2 patchpack and programmable signals. More heightlevels patch makes BEUTIFUL maps
03:42<elmz>I don't play much online, sometimes pllay against a friend of mine
03:42<Cadde>Is the AI in trunk?
03:42<Cadde>If it is you report in on flyspray
03:42<planetmaker>AI framework
03:42<planetmaker>The AIs are like newgrfs. They're extensions
03:43<planetmaker>can be written by anyone who dares to tackle squirrel
03:43<Cadde>Oh wait, i kinda missed the whole point. I responded to your responce :P
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03:45<planetmaker>:-)
03:45<planetmaker>also I think that ChoCho is capable of building quite beautiful networks :-)
03:45<amalloy>jeez the full ECS is huge. i tried FIRS for a while but found it a bit too much; ECS looks overwhelming. once i've got the hang of PBI i'll try some ECS stuff though
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03:45<planetmaker>If FIRS is too much, ECS is worse ;-)
03:46<planetmaker>My personal 2ct.
03:46<amalloy>yeah, looks like
03:46<Cadde>FIRS has 32 cargoes and 37 industries(?) while ECS has 32 cargoes and 39 industries
03:46<Cadde>So far they are equal
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03:46*holyduck plays with almost all the station newgrfs, and hardly anything else
03:46<planetmaker>dunno the numbers.
03:47<planetmaker>I'm sure FIRS has more industries, though ;-)
03:47<Cadde>I am running FIRS now but i fear it's less complex. I hope not, i like complexity
03:47<planetmaker>But not the annoying stockpiles and so on
03:47<holyduck>Cadde, where is the fun in needless complexity? :p
03:47*Cadde likes stockpiles, though i would like them to be larger than in ECS
03:47<planetmaker>FIRS is meant to be less complex in some respect than ECS, forcing less micromanagement on the player
03:47<planetmaker>holyduck: exactly :-)
03:48<holyduck>Cadde, like having to ask the goverment to build new train lines
03:48<holyduck>or whatever
03:48<holyduck>its more complex!
03:48<holyduck>but is it more fun?
03:49<Cadde>Heh, well... I am running daylength at 8 and everything ULTRA expensive. Most of the time right now i am just looking at my balance waiting for enough money to pour in to build the next thing. I don't mind doing some micromanagement while i wait :D
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03:49<holyduck>Cadde, silly man :P
03:50<Cadde>Actually, thats the whole point. I am getting tired at being able to flatten the entire map and build a super efficient network with no worries.
03:50<holyduck>Cadde, just because you're ABLE to
03:50<holyduck>doesnt mean you HAVE to :P
03:50<planetmaker>:-)
03:50<holyduck>you could just enforce tf rules on yourself
03:50<planetmaker>Cadde: and do you always have a score of 1000 points? :-)
03:50<Cadde>But then i win the game after i made my 101st billion dollars.
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03:51<planetmaker>do you use planes?
03:51<Cadde>No, i haven't scored ever... lol :P
03:51<holyduck>Cadde, cant the fun be in building a massive, well working network connecting every industry?
03:51<planetmaker>do you restrict your terraforming to "minimal" - the slightest amount needed to just build a bridge or tunnel?
03:51<holyduck>using minimal tf
03:51<@peter1138>tinyfugue!
03:52<planetmaker>this game is not about money. Money is also not what gives you ranks in the 2050 ranking newspaper
03:52<@peter1138>hmm, or teamfortress
03:52<@peter1138>or ... landscaping ;)
03:52<Cadde>I couldn't give a flying shit about the 2050 newpaper.
03:52<planetmaker>Cadde: but that's what the game is about: scroing 1000/1000 points in that winning screen ;-)
03:53<planetmaker>that's the hightscore list, not the money ;-)
03:53<Cadde>Pff, i don't want to babysit some numbers.
03:53<Cadde>I want to babysit my transport empire
03:53<planetmaker>yeah... that's what those numbers reflect: size, quality and efficiency of your company ;-)
03:53<planetmaker>have you ever looked at?
03:54<@peter1138>+it
03:54<planetmaker>^
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03:54<Cadde>It's like measuring your wang... Does that measurement mean anything when you poke the beaver?
03:55<planetmaker>does your money mean anything? except an openly visible felt measure for the size of your wang?
03:55<Cadde>To me, TTD doesn't end with a single score.
03:55<planetmaker>neither does it for me. I care little about money and scores.
03:56<amalloy>i don't think it ends there for anyone'
03:56<planetmaker>it's just that people care mostly only about their money. Sill with this game
03:56<Cadde>And no, money isn't my end goal either. The point i wanted to get across is, once you are making billions it's not fun anymore because then you are just building stuff.
03:56*planetmaker is "just building stuff" after I payed off my loan. Which is after ~5 ingame years usually
03:57<Cadde>Until you get bored and open a viewport at 0,0 and go to 2048,2048 and drag the demolition tool from viewport to main screen :)
03:57<amalloy>i don't really see what you guys are even arguing about here. Cadde likes the challenge of struggling against a limiting factor (very low income), and planetmaker likes to challenge of building a "perfect" network. these are both reasonable and enjoyable facets of the game
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03:59<Cadde>Yay, first year has passed. Repaid my loan. Now i shall make my next train line!
03:59<Cadde>It's going to be a costly build
04:02<Cadde>Oh but for the love of god, this is going to take forever. :P
04:02<amalloy>heh. you can't have it both ways. either you like struggling under your low income or you don't
04:03<amalloy>no whining about your awesome playstyle :)
04:03<Cadde>Yeah, i am going to be quite happy once the money starts rolling in
04:04<Cadde>I am not whining. I am expressing my joy
04:04*Cadde resists urge to hit the fast forward button
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04:20*Rubidium wonders what "happened" yesterday to cause a new record in bananas and binary downloads
04:21<TrueBrain>even surpassed the Slashdot ...
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04:24<TrueBrain>Rubidium: http://www.bild.de/BILD/digital/spiele/2010/strategie-und-logikspiele/04/09/gratis-remake/transport-tycoon-deluxe-simulation-fuer-pc.html
04:24<TrueBrain>gave 12k visitors (via referer)
04:24<TrueBrain>linuxgames.com is good for 1.5k
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04:24<planetmaker>yeah... German most-selling daily newspaper.
04:24<planetmaker>Though the lowest-aiming one, too ;-)
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04:25<planetmaker>hello TrueBrain :-)
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04:27<@Rubidium>ah, that explains
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04:28<TrueBrain>who would have guess that it would produce more than slashdot :p
04:28<TrueBrain>owh, make that 14k visitors, it started the day before too (logrotate days)
04:29<Cadde>Rubidium: No, it was just me...
04:29<@Rubidium>it's good to see that 1.0.0 has significantly more downloads than beta1 now :)
04:29<planetmaker>:-)
04:30<@Rubidium>4600 average over last 30 days compared to the previous (1.0.0-beta) peak of a little less than 4100
04:30<@Rubidium>for bananas it's 48k vs 38k
04:32<@Rubidium>planetmaker: could you see a new peak too for #openttdcoop?
04:34<planetmaker>not for the devzone/bundles.
04:34<planetmaker>Wiki / www got increased traffic from 5th April on. More or less constant, though
04:35-!-valhallasw [~valhallas@wirenat2.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has joined #openttd
04:35<@Rubidium>so they're likely using "our" mirror now
04:35<planetmaker>yep
04:35<planetmaker>bundles / dev is on the level as in March right now
04:37<planetmaker>hm... seems google updated. There's 20% more yesterday than the average of the 4 days before.
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04:40<plantain>Hey, openttd 1.0.0 is running horribly slowly on my computer (C2D 2.8Ghz w/ nvidia 8400gs)
04:40<@Rubidium>using Ubuntu or Mac OS X?
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04:45<@Rubidium>planetmaker: are you using Ubuntu or Mac OS X?
04:45<@Rubidium>arg
04:45<@Rubidium>plantain: are you using Ubuntu or Mac OS X?
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05:04<planetmaker>:-) Not ubuntu here ;-)
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05:07<TrueBrain>Rubidium: I don't think he wants the help ;)
05:08<Cadde>TrueBrain: I think he timed out and is back in the channel.
05:08<aber1>plantain: What os are you using?
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05:11<plantain>aber1: gentoo
05:11<Cadde>Rubidium: ^
05:14<dihedral>plantain: and why do you use gentoo? :-P
05:14<@peter1138>somebody has to
05:15<TrueBrain>Gentoo rules them all
05:15<planetmaker>but nobody needs to ;-)
05:15<TrueBrain>we could all start using 1 OS
05:15<TrueBrain>solves all issues
05:15<planetmaker>yes.
05:15<planetmaker>let's use DOS 3.3
05:15<Cadde>Woot
05:16<TrueBrain>I would go for 2.1, but sure, 3.3 is fine by me
05:16<TrueBrain>also, lets all start using the same hardware
05:16<TrueBrain>solves those issues too
05:16<Cadde>NO!
05:16<planetmaker>I just happen to still have it on two disks... :-)
05:16<planetmaker>floppy disks that is. 5.25"
05:16<Cadde>It's bad enough we have PISS3's and XBAWKSES
05:16<TrueBrain>I have been working with DOS a lot this last year :p
05:17<Cadde>However, i could stretch as far as having COMPATIBLE hardware.
05:18<@Rubidium>plantain: by any chance using allegro instead of sdl as video backend?
05:19<@Rubidium>or pulseaudio
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05:19<plantain>no, sdl and alsa
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05:20<@Rubidium>then I have absolutely no idea why it's slow
05:20<@Rubidium>oh, maybe compiz or so? Ammler what did cause that slowness for you?
05:20<plantain>maybe I should profile it
05:20<plantain>no compiz
05:20<@peter1138>debug build running a 2048x2048 map with 65k vehicles? heh
05:21<plantain>i don't use a standaard window manager
05:21<TrueBrain>255 AIs? :p
05:21<plantain>small maps with admiral ai
05:21<plantain>even the start screen is slow though
05:22<TrueBrain>./openttd -snull -mnull
05:22<TrueBrain>does that help?
05:22<TrueBrain>./openttd -snull -mnull -vsdl
05:22<TrueBrain>;)
05:23<@Rubidium>could you do a "time openttd -g <path to openttd install>/data/opntitle.dat -vnull -snull -mnull"?
05:23<TrueBrain>oeh, also nice :)
05:24<@Rubidium>please run that a few times and give the average real and user times once they stabilise
05:37<plantain>hmm, that didn't seem to help
05:37<plantain>0.27user 0.08system 0:00.62elapsed 57%CPU (0avgtext+0avgdata 32144maxresident)k
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05:39<@Rubidium>so it takes 0.6 seconds real and 0.3 user. That's roughly equivalent to my number (with 2.5GHz C2D T9400).
05:40<@Rubidium>so OpenTTD itself isn't slow, the drawing to the video device is slow
05:41<@Rubidium>does "openttd -b32bpp-optimized" make it faster?
05:41<plantain>wow, es
05:41<plantain>*yes
05:42<dihedral>hehe
05:42<@Rubidium>so it's SDL drawing (converting?) the 8bits stuff that's slow
05:42<plantain>that's much better, although scrolling tears horribly
05:42<@Rubidium>and for some reason it's not offloaded to the video card
05:43<plantain>I am using the binary version from the site rather than the one in gentoo
05:43<@Rubidium>that shouldn't matter; you're using the SDL from Gentoo
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05:46<@Rubidium>so as I said: the slowness is caused somewhere in SDL or the video card driver. Not much "we" can do about :(
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05:53<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19625 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Fix [FS#3722]: strange message when unpausing because there are enough players, unclear message when an unexpected/invalid packet is received
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05:55<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19626 /trunk/config.lib: -Fix: mention libtimidity in ./configure --help (planetmaker)
05:55<dihedral>which video driver are you using plantain
05:56<plantain>nvidia 195.36.15
05:56<plantain>binary driver
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05:58<plantain>is there any profiler I could run on it that might shed some light?
05:59<@Rubidium>the problem with profilers is that they (usually) only instrument (profile) OpenTTD and thus anything that is horribly slow but called from OpenTTD is totally ignored, so e.g. a slow SDL/video card driver does not show up in the profile
06:00<@Rubidium>unless you compile those with profiling enabled too, but you can't do that with the nvidia driver and I wonder whether profiling in kernel-land works either
06:00<plantain>okay
06:00<plantain>is anyone else here using the nvidia binary drivers? if so which version?
06:01<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19627 /trunk/config.lib:
06:01<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Fix [OSX]: mark the macports default include directory as a system include directory so our -W flags don't cause warnings on headers in there (planetmaker)
06:01<CIA-6>OpenTTD: As this is a OS X patch... I have not and cannot test it, so if it breaks your system: do not blame me!
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06:03<__ln__>did you see that?
06:04<dihedral>plantain: 185.18.36
06:05<dihedral>libsdl 1.2.13
06:05<plantain>okay, I'll roll back to them and try
06:05<dihedral>i am on ubuntu though ^^
06:05<@Rubidium>that was a short visit of Bjarni... did the OSX trigger something in him?
06:05<dihedral>+ compiz + pulseaudio ...
06:06<dihedral>Rubidium: perhaps he remembered how everybody reacts when he joins and had second thoughts :-P
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06:07<plantain>so how does that-b32bpp-optimizedflag work?
06:10<@Rubidium>it changes the blitter from fast (in OpenTTD!) 8bpp to a slow (in OpenTTD) 32bpp blitter so it can write 32bpp graphics to the video card instead of 8bpp graphics
06:10<Ammler>I am using KDE's own composite manager. But that had nothing to do with openttd, iirc.
06:11<Ammler>oh, and good day guys. :-)
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06:12<dihedral>hi ^^
06:16<plantain>hmm, going back to that version of nvidia's drivers requires going back to xorg 1.6.5 too
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06:18<planetmaker>:-) Thx Rubidium
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06:27<ccfreak2k>plantain, which OS are you using again?
06:29<aber>i believe he said gentoo Linux
06:31<aber>ccfreak2k: or in german it would be Eselpinguin
06:32<ccfreak2k>He may have benefited from using the opengl patch then.
06:33<Wizzleby>opengl patch?
06:34<Wizzleby>he also said he was using the openttd binary from upstream, not gentoo's version.. However, I'd like a look at the opengl patch if possible, I'm handling preparing openttd-1.0.0 for inclusion in gentoo's portage tree
06:35<Wizzleby>which reminds me
06:35<Wizzleby>Rubidium: before openttd-1.0.0 goes into portage tree, our games lead wants the build system to not pass CFLAGS to CXX. I've written a patch that addresses this, but being unfamilliar with the internals of the openttd build system, I'd prefer to have upstream's view on the patch, ways in which I could clean it up , and whether it's completely out of line with openttd's build system, or whether it's viable (after cleanup
06:35<Wizzleby> perhaps) for upstream inclusion
06:35<Wizzleby>the patch is a bit messy currently, this I know. Here it is: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/201719/ <--ways to improve the patch or reduce its size most welcome :)
06:36<@peter1138>there's no working opengl patch
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06:43<ccfreak2k>Wizzleby, the opengl patch is oooold.
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06:44<Wizzleby>noted
06:44<ccfreak2k>It's not going to apply to 1.0 without a fight.
06:44<Wizzleby>Well, no worries about that then
06:44<ccfreak2k>Which is too bad. It had much potential.
06:44<plantain>yes, gentoo ccfreak2k
06:44<Wizzleby>plantain: have you tried the version in gamerlay overlay?
06:45<plantain>I haven't, I'll add it and try that now
06:45<Wizzleby>all the build deps for openttd are now in portage, openttd-1.0.0 will be in portage once Mr_Bones is satisfied that we're not passing CFLAGS to the C++ compiler
06:46<Wizzleby>the version in gamerlay currently does not fit that criterion, but it does build and work
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06:47<@Rubidium>Wizzleby: is passing CXXFLAGS to the C compiler considered bad?
06:48<planetmaker>Wizzleby, that'd be quite... unwelcome actually
06:48<@Rubidium>oh, that reminds me... does it break gcc 4.5's LTO compilation?
06:49<blathijs>Rubidium: I think the issue was ther reverse, passing CFLAGS to CXX
06:49<Wizzleby>Rubidium: it can cause some weirdness, yes. If a user has CFLAGS defined globally, and in their CFLAGS are flags valid only for C (but not C++, it generates a lot of noise) wrt gcc4.5, I can let you know once I have my laptop functioning again, where I have gcc 4.5 for testing
06:50<blathijs>And I'd say both of them are somewhat unexpected
06:50<Wizzleby>planetmaker: how come?
06:50<blathijs>OTOH, if you put -g in CFLAGS, I guess you sortof expect it to work with CXX as well
06:50<@Rubidium>blathijs: yeah, but... cflags/cxxflags is (partially) passed into ldflags which is passed to both g++ and gcc (for PSP)
06:51<planetmaker>Wizzleby, :-) I understood you somewhat wrongly it seems. global flags passed on to their respective compiler is what I understood. The the respective other one... dunno :-) You're probably right
06:51<blathijs>Compilers suck :-)
06:51<planetmaker>vacuum cleaners suck, too ;-)
06:51<@Rubidium>anyhow, some parameters (c(xx)flags) are required to be in ldflags for lto. If they are not lto fails linking/optimising in many interesting ways
06:52<@Rubidium>if you split cflags and cxxflags there is no guarantee that the required flags for lto are in ldflags and cflags and cxxflags agree with eachother on those flags
06:52<blathijs>Rubidium: Isn't that the responsibility of the one setting the CFLAGS then, to put them in CXXFLAGS and LDFLAGS wehere needed?
06:52<Wizzleby>Rubidium: ok. well I'll report back once I've tested with 4.5, I did try to account for that possibility but won't know if it worked till I can test it
06:53<@Rubidium>so technically splitting cflags and cxxflags can break lto under circumstances
06:54<@Rubidium>nevertheless, OpenTTD does not have any C so only CXXFLAGS should be considered... but virtually *everyone* uses CFLAGS to pass stuff to configures etc
06:54*Wizzleby nods
06:54<@Rubidium>so effectively this change breaks (almost) everyone's workflow
06:55<Wizzleby>The patch currently attempts to make sure that CFLAGS and CXXFLAGS end up virtually identical
06:55<Wizzleby>hm
06:55<@Rubidium>the stuff OpenTTD adds to it, yes... but the stuff coming from "the environment" doesn't
06:56<Wizzleby>Rubidium: what about a switch then to configure, that we at gentoo can simply toggle, For example --disable-cxxflags-as-cflags
06:58<Wizzleby>for example, leaving the default behaviour as it was, and enabling this patch's implemented workflow only when the user runs configure with the (non-default) option
06:59<Wizzleby>I certainly don't wish to mess with anyone else's workflow
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07:00<@Rubidium>but technically you're asking for NOT passing CFLAGS into OpenTTD's compile stuff, right?
07:01<@Rubidium>as everything's compiled as C++
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07:02<amalloy>sorry to butt into this compiler discussion...is there a reason my truck (Access Rigel with Hopper Trailer) would be unable to go to a lorry loading bay next to a coal mine? when i try to give it a Go To order, it just says "vehicle can't go to that station"
07:02<@Rubidium>amalloy: they can only go to drive through stops
07:02<@peter1138>yes, articulated vehicles can only stop at drive-through bays
07:02<@peter1138>cos the drivers are dumb and can't reverse
07:02<amalloy>oh, i didn't even know it was articulated
07:03<amalloy>how can i tell the difference?
07:03<Wizzleby>Rubidium: hm, thanks for pointing that out. You're correct then, all we'd need to do is optionally respect CXXFLAGS instead of CFLAGS
07:03<@Rubidium>Wizzleby: what's Gentoo's concensus on passing cflags from configure scripts to cxxflags? E.g. sdl-config has no --cxxflags
07:04<@Rubidium>Wizzleby: so ./configure CFLAGS="$CXXFLAGS" should do the trick; maybe even ./configure CFLAGS=""
07:04<@Rubidium>it will pass sdl-config's CFLAGS to CXXFLAGS though
07:05<@peter1138>indeed pkg-config only has --cflags, not --cxxflags
07:05<Wizzleby>well.. sdl-config doesn't seem to pass us any C only CFLAGS, that's probably ok
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07:06<@Rubidium>but what if some CRAZY Gentoo users were to pass some C-only CFLAGS to SDL's compile that end up in there?
07:07<@Rubidium>or in, as peter1138 said, any pkg-config configured package?
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07:09<Wizzleby>I'm not entirely sure their crazy cflags used to build sdl would make it into the output of sdl-config --cflags, on my system that only outputs '-I/usr/include/SDL -D_GNU_SOURCE=1 -D_REENTRANT', which is short of my global CFLAGS setting
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07:10<@Rubidium>neither am I, but... I'm no expert on compiling sdl or anything pkg-config related
07:11<@Rubidium>still it's conceptually wrong to pass --cflags to CXXFLAGS if I must believe Gentoo
07:12<@peter1138>heh, and we have to strip _GNU_SOURCE
07:12<Wizzleby>why strip -D_GNU_SOURCE?
07:12<@Rubidium># SDL must not add _GNU_SOURCE as it breaks many platforms
07:13<Wizzleby>oh, right... I was just looking at that too
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07:15<@peter1138>i don't remember what it breaks, or why, mind you
07:15<Wizzleby>well, the build system does strip that out. AFAIK, the stipulation against passing CFLAGS to CXX is in the context of where we are pulling CFLAGS from the user's make.conf, which is a circumstance in which it can contain cflags that are invalid for CXX. afaict, pkg-config does not return any such CFLAGS, even if I build the package with said cflags
07:15<@Rubidium>ah yes... strndup is available when _GNU_SOURCE is set, so setting _GNU_SOURCE even when strndup is not available breaks OpenTTD compilation
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07:21<Wizzleby>I have -Wno-pointer-sign in CFLAGS in my make.conf to catch when CXX is trying to compile C++ with CFLAGS, but it doesn't make it into the output of sdl-config
07:23<@peter1138>you're missing the point somewha t:)
07:23<Wizzleby>peter1138: how, pray tell :)
07:24<@peter1138>if CXX shouldn't have CFLAGS passed to it, then pkg-config is not usable as it does not provide any cxxflags
07:24<@peter1138>(yes, we're being pedantic)
07:25<Wizzleby>peter1138: yeah, but I can be pedantic too: CFLAGS and CXXFLAGS are largely compatible. We're concerned about avoiding the corner cases where user input cflags could break something. pkg-config isn't returning something that classifies only as a CFLAG or a CXXFLAG, it's passing flags which are valid in either: read, both.
07:27<Wizzleby>s/it's passing/it's returning/g
07:31<Wizzleby>at any rate, I'm testing Rubidum's suggestion of overriding CFLAGs at configure time
07:32<Wizzleby>if that works all the better (so far it seems to). If using pkg-config output is/were a problem, it could then be fixed with a simple one or two line patch, rather than the 14 KiB mess that I was using
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07:37<Wizzleby>peter1138: the important qualfier that I think you missed (or I failed to mention) was it is /user defined/ CFLAGS we want to avoid passing to CXX
07:38<Wizzleby>Rubidium: thank you, overriding CFLAGS at configure works, that seems preferrable to me
07:39<Wizzleby>(and doesn't require any changes on your part :) )
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09:26<Belugas>heelo
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09:27<dihedral>hey Belugas
09:29<Belugas>hello sir dihedral you :)
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09:48<@peter1138>1467 packages upgraded, 499 newly installed, 252 to remove and 1 not upgraded.
09:48<@peter1138>Need to get 2155MB of archives. After unpacking 1298MB will be used.
09:49<@peter1138>that's... quite a lot
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09:52<@Rubidium>lenny->squeeze?
09:59<@peter1138>yup
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10:31<aber>ahh znc advertisement
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10:35<theholyduck>aber, all running on the same box
10:36<theholyduck>+ issues :p
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11:25<Mazur>I get that there is not way to create keyboard shortcuts as a user in the GUI?
11:25<planetmaker>nor via config file
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>no, the shortcuts are fixed in the source code
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>there was a patch for configurable hotkeys, though
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11:28<Mazur>It would be ever to nice.,
11:29<Mazur>I'd use ^I to toggle land-information.
11:31<planetmaker>http://dev.openttdcoop.org:81/projects/clientpatches/repository/entry/query_land_shortcut.diff <--- @ Mazur
11:32<planetmaker>chose whatever suits you instead of 'G'
11:32<OwenS>Hey, who introduced DEF_CMD and broke my code? :p
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11:33<Eddi|zuHause>"if (strcmp(user,"owens")) { fail_compile() ; }
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>(of course, that makes entirely no sense :p)
11:34<OwenS>For a start, that will break for everyone else :p
11:34<@Rubidium>OwenS: your SCM did
11:34<OwenS>Rubidium, well, it told me merge failed :p
11:37<@Rubidium>OwenS: it should have asked whether to merge a revision that's going to fail to merge
11:38<OwenS>Rubidium, git leaves you with an umgerged working copy. You can always revert its changes ;-)
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11:39<Mazur>Hunk #1 succeeded at 30 (offset 4 lines).
11:39<Mazur>Hunk #2 succeeded at 329 (offset 22 lines).
11:39<Mazur>Thanks, Planetmaker.
11:39<planetmaker>yes, it's a terribly old patch
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11:57<Steffl>hi together, is anybody here which knows something of development and AIs?
11:59<@Rubidium>I guess Yexo would
11:59<Yexo>ask away
11:59<Steffl>ah thanks
11:59<Yexo>but I leave in 15mins for a few hours
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12:00<Steffl>I have modified pathzilla AI
12:00<Steffl>what should is do with it?
12:00<Yexo>what do you want to do with it?
12:00<Steffl>is it legal to give it to other people?
12:01<PeterT>you mean to redistribute it?
12:01<Steffl>zutty doesnt answer my pms
12:01<Yexo>yes, it's distributed under the GPL, so as long as you give proper credit and write down what you modified, and distribute your version also under the GPL
12:01<PeterT>what is it licensed under?
12:01<Steffl>ok, I thougt it shouldnt be a problem
12:01<Steffl>but I was not sure
12:02<Steffl>does anybody knows something about zutty? icq maybe?
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12:04<Steffl>ok thanks. It need a little bit testing then I will give it to download. bye
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12:07<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19628 /trunk/src/spriteloader/png.cpp: -Change: support the tRNS chunk to read transparency information for RGB PNGs (Szvengar)
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12:13<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19629 /trunk/src/network/network_chat_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3757]: chat message caused glitch when rejoining a network game
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13:39<Terkhen>hello
13:42<Velos>wondering if anyone could reccomend a nice 4 lane t junction, ive made one myself but i cant help thinking there must be something better
13:42<Velos>heres mine http://s43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/Lossarious/?action=view¤t=4-laneTjunction.jpg
13:43<Velos>dam thats slow...
13:45<Velos>wont even load for me :P
13:45<PeterT>good evening Terkhen
13:45<PeterT>Off to Spain in two days
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19630 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files):
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: french - 2 changes by glx
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: german - 2 changes by planetmaker
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 23 changes by Phreeze
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: spanish - 8 changes by Terkhen
13:46<Terkhen>where are you going?
13:46<PeterT>Madrid
13:46<PeterT>and other cities
13:46<PeterT>and then to Morroco
13:47<Sacro>Velos: use imgur
13:47<Velos>ok will do
13:48<Terkhen>I see... I haven't seen much of Madrid besides the bus station and the airport
13:48<Velos>http://imgur.com/qiG72.jpg
13:48<Velos>cheers Sacro
13:48<Sacro>s'ok
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15:16<theholyduck>Velos, too many sharp turns
15:16<theholyduck>general missuse and absue of pbs
15:17<theholyduck>and if you require a network with LL_RR lines, you might look into doubling up on bridges/tunnels
15:17<theholyduck>to prevent signal gaps slowing down trains
15:18<Ammler>let trains use your junction and you will see the issues yourself ;-)
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15:20<CIA-6>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19631 /trunk/src/graph_gui.cpp: -Feature: Graphs with negative values are no longer forced to have the zero axis in the middle (grid size calculation by Alberth).
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15:38<CIA-6>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19632 /trunk/src/graph_gui.cpp: -Cleanup: has_negative_values is no longer used.
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15:42*OwenS wonders how Gnome's volume control manages to punch a hole in a window (It erases a region of the topmost window on the non-focused monitor...)
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15:56<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r19633 /trunk/src/terraform_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r11759): Signed computations with unsigned integers.
15:57<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r19634 /trunk/src/ (tree_cmd.cpp tree_gui.cpp tree_map.h): -Codechange: Use TREE_INVALID more consistently.
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16:07*andythenorth decides this FIRS thing makes for a kind of fun game
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16:09<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r19635 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_tile.cpp: -Fix (r19634): Forgot AI.
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16:15<__ln__>"trotz" + dativ?
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16:23<frosch123>genitiv
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16:24<__ln__>dnk
16:26<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19636 /trunk/src/company_cmd.cpp: -Fix: desync when taking over companies
16:27<frosch123>though i am sure eddi can explain you better why lots use dativ instead of genitiv in lot of cases, resp. why noone uses "trotz".
16:28<Mazur>We lost all that, beasically, except in a few old "standing expressions".
16:28<Mazur>*snif*
16:28<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r19637 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Pass complete TransportType to CmdBuildTunnel.
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16:29<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19638 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Change: log the _date and _date_fract in the desync log for saved games
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16:35<KloBass>hello
16:36<KloBass>one quick question is possible to use windows manager shortcuts when playing openttd (ex switching desktops) ? (using linux)
16:36<frosch123>that is totally up to your window manager, isn't it?
16:37<KloBass>well no
16:37<KloBass>when i have openttd fullscreened
16:37<KloBass>cant alt+tab etc
16:37<@peter1138>no, sdl stops that from working, nothing we can do
16:38<KloBass>ok so another question :)
16:38<KloBass>when i dont have fullscreen
16:38<KloBass>everyclick in openttd window
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16:38<KloBass>"hides"my mouse
16:39<KloBass>also getting this http://pastebin.com/icXWmpJK
16:40<KloBass>so i have to move my mouse from ttd window and when i come back again have openttd cursor
16:40<@Rubidium>what kind of fancy wm is that then?
16:40<KloBass>after click it will disabear again
16:40<KloBass>openbox
16:40<KloBass>mainly
16:40<KloBass>but it does also in gnome
16:40<frosch123>wrt. the paste: i guess you downloaded some 32bpp pack for the extra zoom patch, which is invalid for stock ottd
16:40<KloBass>can it cause this cursor disapearing?
16:41<frosch123>unlikely
16:41<KloBass>ok
16:42<KloBass>so any idea what can cause this?
16:44<frosch123>never had such problems on kde 3.5 nor xfce
16:46<KloBass>hm which distro?
16:46<@Rubidium>xfce + Debian works fine
16:47<frosch123>gentoo for me
16:47<KloBass>damn
16:47<KloBass>ill try emerge world :)
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16:50<KloBass>hmm i guess it will be problem in sdl or iam missing something because also Wesnoth doest that same
16:50<frosch123>libsdl 1.2.14-r2 on my side
16:50<@Rubidium>yes, the new 1.2.14 SDL has quite a number of issues
16:51<KloBass>libsdl-1.2.14-r2 USE="X alsa audio joystick opengl video xv
16:53<KloBass>frosch123: do you have any other *sdl installed (eg sdl-image ? )
16:53<frosch123>well, i doubt "dga fbcon" has any influence on it :)
16:54<frosch123>quite some of them
16:54<KloBass>like?
16:55<frosch123>sdl-image, sdl-gfx,sdl-mixer, sdl-net, sdl-sound, sdl-ttf
16:58<frosch123>though i have none of them in my world file. no idea what actually pulls them in :p
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16:59<KloBass>did not help
16:59<KloBass>weird
17:01<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: want to elaborate frosch's comment about dativ vs. genitiv?
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>... just having hard drive trouble
17:03<__ln__>ok, good luck :/ (i hope you have backups)
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: that's not the issue... i'm having trouble a) figuring out what's wrong, and b) cleaning / because messages was spammed with errors and is now full
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17:34<Nite_Owl>Hello all
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18:15<Mazur>Hello, Night_Owl.
18:16<Nite_Owl>Hello Mazur
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18:32<PeterT>peter1138: Do you still run that good UKRS server?
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18:57<Belugas>now THAT is hilarious...
18:57<Belugas>I'm waiting for PCCharge customer support
18:57<Belugas>why?
18:57-!-Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B773B5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
18:57<Belugas>the customer has transactions made THE WHOLE DAY under Demo mode
18:57<+glx>oops
18:57<Belugas>and those transactions are supposed to be real
18:58<Belugas>so...
18:58<+glx>customer's customers should be happy ;)
18:58<Belugas>yeah... laughing out loud
18:59-!-fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbabcf8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:59<Belugas>i just can't understand how the clerks were not able to view that...
18:59-!-bryjen [~bryjen@75.81.201.131] has joined #openttd
19:00<Belugas>"DEMO-6" does not sound like a real auth # :S
19:00<@Rubidium>Belugas: it didn't shout "you're in demo mode" continuously
19:00<+glx>it was not flashing
19:00<Belugas>guess it's the problem :)
19:00<Belugas>no big interraction
19:06<OwenS>Belugas, credit card terminals?
19:07<Belugas>yup
19:07<Belugas>well... not terminals...
19:08<OwenS>Card present or not present transactions?
19:08<Belugas>my system is integrated with the payment processing companny
19:08<Belugas>present
19:08<Belugas>Point Of Sales
19:08<Belugas>store outlet
19:08<Belugas>etc etc..
19:08<OwenS>Hmm... I think they may be unable to (without violating the Visa/MasterCard/Etc) terms of service authorize the cards for payment then...
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19:20<Pulec>hello
19:20<Pulec>we've playin for 2 addictive days on 2048x256 map
19:21<Pulec>after you get out of the debt and have some money, its like sandbox from it then
19:21<PeterT>Yes
19:21<@Rubidium>yup
19:22<@Rubidium>unless you play competively with multiple players
19:22<Pulec>i wonder whats the point of playing it then, i mean its awesome, i cant go away from it, build more busses, plains e.t.c. buut
19:22<PeterT>Improve your networks
19:22<PeterT>Set high goals for yourself
19:22<Pulec>yep i play with friend but on so big map...
19:22<Pulec>i guses yes thats whats it about
19:23<Pulec>but we fight each other in some towns and thats fun
19:23<Belugas>OwenS, there are some stuff i can, believe me :)
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19:23<Pulec>and improving networks, make bigger citties
19:23<Pulec>but its serious time killer, 6h killed today like nothing
19:24<Belugas>that is the fun part of PCI compliancy... when you screw, you really do screw up
19:25<@Rubidium>Pulec: the sun isn't shining yet, so... you haven't been really taken by it
19:26<Pulec>? sun isnt shining?
19:26<Pulec>yep like i will play whole night again...
19:27<@Rubidium>you didn't start around dinner and then you notice the sun is "still" shining outside and looking at your clock you see it's already the next day
19:27<Pulec>just tried the max zoom, some graphics is really scary ugly...
19:27<Pulec>lol
19:27<Pulec>i would hate that happen
19:30<+glx><@Rubidium> Pulec: the sun isn't shining yet, so... you haven't been really taken by it <-- happened to me many times
19:31<Pulec>its like 20-30 of game years at normal speed right?
19:47<Pulec>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=34479, how wold you feel about ottd on 3d engine, with exactly same view and same graphics which looks most to the original?
19:47<Pulec>i mean same building mechanism and everything
19:47<Pulec>just in 3d
19:49<@Rubidium>"exactly same view" and "in 3d" are mutually exclusive
19:50<Pulec>i guess it would be hard to make it look like before
19:50<Pulec>but i will set it my goal! hehe
19:52<__ln__>would it work on a real 3D screen?
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19:56<Pulec>do you mean flat 3d screen?
19:56<Pulec>with glasses?
19:56<Pulec>yeah sure :D
19:56<Pulec>but i guess you mean the big table 3d
19:56<__ln__>glasses or without glasses, depending on technology
19:56<Pulec>that would be awesome then
19:57<Pulec>no i mean like you have this mini railroads paradise
19:57<Pulec>the collector people, you know
19:57<Pulec>and some 3d projector
19:57<Pulec>and some ttd map on it
19:57<Pulec>touch there and build that
19:58<Pulec>lol thats utopia and scary one...
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19:59<Belugas>LA BOMBA!!!!
19:59<Belugas>I AM ZE BEST
19:59<Pulec>allright
19:59<+glx>hehe someone solved a problem :)
20:01<__ln__>i wonder if 3d-ness would make the game more realistic
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20:10<Pulec>i've been reading wiki page a while ago, about towns
20:10<Pulec>and there was part that needed rework?
20:11<Pulec>so i understand that well placed and well suplied stations affects the town level most?
20:11<Pulec>goods do not affect that?
20:13<Cadde>You mean local authority?
20:13<Belugas>yes, glx :) And it's a good feeling ;)
20:13<Belugas>now.. back to TV with my wife...
20:15<__ln__>you both fit inside?
20:15<Cadde>Pulec: You mean local authority?
20:16<Pulec>i mean growth of the city
20:16<Pulec>i did not write that, heh, sorry
20:17<Cadde>Growth i think is based on passengers transported. Or frequency of the same.
20:17<Cadde>http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics
20:18<Cadde>Look at that and see if it can clear things up ^
20:19<Pulec>oh i didnt read that, thx
20:21<Cadde>This might help if game mechanics doesn't
20:21<Cadde>http://pastebin.com/h31YjKfC
20:21<Cadde>It's the code for town growth changes
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20:28<Pulec>if the one tile is 686km long, and town is 20 tiles away from another town, that makes the distance between towns over 13 thousand km, wierd, huh?
20:32<Cadde>Pulec: Eh? Where is that notion of tiles representing 686km ?
20:33<Pulec>sorry my mistake
20:33<Pulec>The game has many rules to make vehicles move fairly realistically. A vehicle travelling at 100 mph (160kph) will cross 5.6 tiles per day.
20:33<Pulec>understood it wrongly
20:33<Cadde>I hope so :D
20:33<Eddi|zuHause>Pulec: if a tile is 25m long, the distance will be 500m, which is kinda weird as well, huh?
20:34<Pulec>yeah it is
20:34<Cadde>I don't think of towns as cities. It's more like districts in a larger city when they are that close (20 tiles)
20:35<Cadde>So a cluster of towns that can basically touch is one large city.
20:35<Pulec>yep and its metropolis
20:36<Eddi|zuHause>long story short: you can't compare ingame scales like that
20:36<Eddi|zuHause>the tile size may be practically any number between 5m and 5000m
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20:38<Eddi|zuHause>the width of a road for example is 8-10m
20:38<Cadde>The one thing i dislike is the lack of game time to speed scale.
20:38<Eddi|zuHause>the length of a runway is easily several km
20:38<Cadde>Trains really should zip across the map if you run at normal daylengths
20:39<Cadde>But changing that would require changing practically everything
20:39<Pulec>how long takes one month in game? 5 min?
20:39<Cadde>74 ticks a day. That i know for sure
20:40<Pulec>ticks?
20:40<Eddi|zuHause>a year is about 15 minutes
20:40<Cadde>Yeah, the internal clock of the game
20:40<Pulec>hh
20:40<Eddi|zuHause>there are about 30 ticks per second, making a day around 2.5 seconds
20:41<Cadde>So yeah, once 74 ticks have passed you have a new day. (Unless you use the daylength patch)
20:41<Cadde>And if the game is running slow those 74 ticks can take longer.
20:41<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not entirely sure, could be either 33 or 35 ticks per second
20:41<Cadde>I.e if your CPU usage is 200% then a day would take 5 seconds as opposed to 2.5
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20:42<Cadde>And trains would seem to move choppy as they are redrawn every tick. 15 frames per second at 200% CPU usage basically.
20:43<Eddi|zuHause>ooooh... on my 386 ticks could last 2 seconds.
20:44<Eddi|zuHause>with 80 trains
20:45<Eddi|zuHause>i never made it more than 10 years into a game
20:45<Cadde>Also bare in mind, OTTD uses only ONE core no matter if you have 2 or 16 cores on your CPU. A higher clock frequency is better than more cores when it comes to OTTD
20:45<Eddi|zuHause>so around 1930 to 1940
21:00<PeterT>Eddi|zuHause: damn the forums did it again...
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21:08<|NoobCp|>Is the edge distance limit for oil refineries obsolete by any chance, or does it not apply in the scenario editor?
21:08-!-|NoobCp| is now known as NoobCp
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21:09<PeterT>NoobCp: I think it still applies
21:09<PeterT>there is a patch to get rid of the limit
21:09<PeterT>I haven't (personally) tested it though
21:09<NoobCp>Strange, I just bult it it on a location 128x63
21:09<PeterT>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=47555
21:10<Eddi|zuHause>some limits don't apply in the scenario editor
21:10<NoobCp>Fun, just thought it was strange
21:11<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know if the refinery limit is one of them
21:11<Eddi|zuHause>also, newgrfs may change this limit
21:11<NoobCp>None loaded
21:11<Yexo>oil refinery limit is ignored in the scenario editor
21:12<Yexo>but only for manually placed industries
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21:54<Cadde>! Ugh !
21:54<Cadde>Is there a way to change the NewGRF ordering on a already started game.
21:58<welshdragon>single or multiplayer?
21:58<Cadde>Single
21:58<welshdragon>yes
21:59<Cadde>I have tried moving the newgrf to the desired location and saved the game and re-loaded it.
21:59<welshdragon>all newgrf's should be in the same place
22:00<welshdragon>in windows it's My Documents/openttd/data
22:00<Cadde>Ok, how does that help me changing the ordering on a already started game?
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22:01<welshdragon>spanner -> Newgrf Settings
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22:01<Cadde><Cadde> I have tried moving the newgrf to the desired location and saved the game and re-loaded it.
22:01<welshdragon>to add a grf hit add
22:02<welshdragon>right
22:02<welshdragon>is there a ! next to it?
22:02<Cadde>I want the load order of the grfs to change so Bigger Train depot takes priority over TTRS
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22:03<welshdragon>select Bigger Train Depot
22:04<welshdragon>and theb click move up/down in the GRF Settings window
22:05<Cadde>It doesn't apply.
22:06<Cadde>I mean, the order is changed when i move the grf up and down and save the game and restart ottd but the actual effect is none.
22:07<Cadde>Is it because the sprite is saved in the savegame so that it cannot be replaced by altering the grf order or did i do something wrong.
22:07<Cadde>Altering the order and starting a new game has effect.
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22:13<welshdragon>that's just it
22:13<welshdragon>you won't see the changes
22:13<welshdragon>unless there was a conflict
22:14<Cadde>So basically, no. Not without having a savegame editor that can slap the savegame into shape and even then it's questionable.
22:18<+glx>where did you change them ? running game or main menu ?
22:18<Cadde>Running game.
22:19<Cadde>All that's wrong is the sprite used for train depots.
22:20<Cadde>It's not game breaking in any way but it saddens me to realize after spending 4 hours slowly making money that i cannot make my stations look as good as i wanted them to.
22:22<Cadde>Actually, come to think of it. I believe it's the original OpenGFX version of the depot that is showing. Thus the ordering of the grf doesn't matter. But for some reason it wasn't applied when i started the game and i only noticed just now.
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23:02<Cadde>Hmm. Why are my buses paying the passengers to travel 6 squares?
23:04<Cadde>This is what's happening. I have 3 stations set up in a T layout, there are 2 trains going from each and every one of them and then i have a 4th station with 2 trains going to the 3rd station.
23:04<Cadde>Naturally cargodist wants to send passengers from stations 1, 2 and 3 to station 4 and the bus station that is linked up with buses.
23:05<Cadde>But when my buses going from station 4 to that bus station arrives and unloads i am PAYING money to unload the passengers. What is going on here?
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23:11<Cadde>Oh, and my balance is going up even though it sais COST and the profit of the bus shows as negative.
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23:29<Cadde>Figured it out, it's that leg profit dealio
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---Logclosed Thu Apr 15 00:00:10 2010