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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-04-16

---Logopened Fri Apr 16 00:00:12 2010
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01:00<Cadde>@vcs 19599
01:00<Cadde>How does this work?
01:00<Cadde>I need to see changes made since revision 19599
01:03<Cadde>Never mind, found it
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02:21<@Rubidium>zodttd: so now you blame me for going to bed at a reasonable time for my timezone because I have to be at school early?
02:24<Forked>I blame you for the volcano activity on iceland
02:24<zodttd>Rubidium: I'm not blaming you for anything. Though I would like your support, I expressed I would have to explain why such a popular application dissapeared from App Store. Apple pulled it shortly after you stopped speaking as I said they would. When I contacted Apple, they said both parties must come to the conclusion to bring back the app.
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02:36<Ammler>zodttd: I don't know, if anyone already told you, but please do completely clone openttd trunk and keep the history, so it is easier for everyone to see the changes, all commits without (svn...) for example.
02:37<Terkhen>good morning
02:37<zodttd>Ammler: I am working off the release build within git.
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02:37<zodttd>Err rephrase. I am working in git, using the release of 1.0.0 which I was told is not in your git.
02:37<@Rubidium>Ammler: git doesn't support the way we release, so there's no 1.0.0 in our git repository
02:40<Ammler>ah, I see, sorry then
02:40<Ammler> <-- what's that?
02:41<@Rubidium>the 1.0 branch without 1.0.0
02:41<Ammler>yeah, but the only missing part is the release changeset itself, so this should still be easiest?
02:42<Ammler>well, and a parallel branch with trunk of course :-)
02:46<@peter1138>git supports branches and tags, but it probably wouldn't work from svn-git
02:47<dihedral>is TrueBrain around?
02:48<Ammler>in 4 hours :-)
02:48<@Rubidium>zodttd: I will email Apple as soon as I am confident you have resolved all violations
02:49<zodttd>Rubidium: How can I make sure you're confident / how do I prove so?
02:50<@Rubidium>show me that the binary package and source repository doesn't miss anything that would violate, i.e. let me download and review the updated binary package and source repository
02:50<dihedral>with time ;-)
02:50<zodttd>As far as I'm aware, your requests are to add the license.txt & readme.txt in filesystem alongside the binary, and do the same with OpenSFX and OpenGFX. Then make sure they're in the splash as well.
02:50<zodttd>Is this the case?
02:51<dihedral>and the file he was missing required to compile it
02:51<zodttd>The way I was told to go about OpenGFX and OpenSFX was to include them in their tar forms.
02:51<zodttd>Which file?
02:51<zodttd>I included literally the entire project. It requires XCode to compile.
02:51<dihedral>i do not know which one, i only remember Rubidium was missing a file
02:51<Ammler>or in subdirs without removing parts...
02:52<zodttd>You can literally download XCode from Apple for free, run the xcodeproject and click Build & Go.
02:53<Ammler>all base sets zips are distributed with subdirs, so you could also just use those.
02:53<zodttd>Ok cool
03:00<@Rubidium>zodttd: at least src/network/core/config.h is missing from the repository, but to test what more is missing simply clone the git repository and test that
03:01<zodttd>Checking where it is located. I know the project I have is complete unless git failed to upload it
03:02<zodttd>Its here
03:02<zodttd>Going to link to it
03:03<zodttd>Ah! The gitignore file blocked it
03:04<dihedral>lol - time make -j8
03:04<dihedral>real 0m26.566s
03:04<dihedral>user 2m42.966s
03:04<dihedral>sys 0m11.697s
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03:06<zodttd>Making a final compile and updating the sources. Will have a new IPA in a few minutes
03:06<@Rubidium> <- that's roughly the diff I get after removing the projects/openttd directory with sdl/freetype/png/xcode stuff and ignoring the files you moved around and ignoring the deleted makefiles
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03:08<@Rubidium>and it shows that network/core/config.h has been removed
03:08<zodttd>Rubidium: Doing a push to the repo with the .gitignore cleaned up so it includes Makefiles and network/config.h
03:09<zodttd>That was due to one of your previous .gitignore's making it's way into the project. Fun times with hidden files.
03:10<chaos95>git doesn't support the way you release?
03:10<zodttd>metwork/core/config.h and rev.cpp are up now
03:10<@Rubidium>I'm fairly certain that didn't ignore network/core/config.h
03:10<zodttd>It does
03:10<zodttd>you ignore config.*
03:10<@Rubidium>oh, lol
03:11<zodttd>Might want to look into that :)
03:11*Rubidium blames bruce89
03:15<zodttd>Nearly ready for an IPA
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03:22*Rubidium will be gone for a while now
03:23<zodttd>Ok Rubidium. I will email you links to the IPA and the update source code. Let me know when you'll be back
03:26<@Rubidium>depends somewhat on how long the meeting takes; sometimes it's like 15 minutes, sometimes it's some hours
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03:28<amalloy>where can i find a list of what changes cargodist makes? i've noticed very different behavior for station ratings, and i'd like to find out where it's documented
03:29<planetmaker>amalloy: get a source checkout of cargodist and compare to the openttd version it is based upon
03:30<planetmaker>and good morning folks
03:31<amalloy>well, while that would certainly work eventually, it seems a bit overkill. it's really not documented anywhere?
03:31<dihedral>hello pm
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03:47<Ammler>amalloy: I assume you know the wiki page, else you wouldn't ask here ;-)
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04:07<zodttd>Rubidium: I sent you an email to with links to the new IPA and a link to the repo which has been updated. I also included a changelog for you.
04:11<Ammler>if you would make your development public, others could help you to improve without the need to bother Rubi, tt-forums is a good start there :-)
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04:12<zodttd>How is it not public?
04:13<Ammler>why you need to send a email to rubi?
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04:14<zodttd>Ammler: No worries. Just needed to resolve some issues with a port and licensing.
04:15<@Rubidium> <- somehow I can't quite read that easily :)
04:15<zodttd>That just controls the splash screen
04:15<zodttd>I can screenshot for you
04:15<planetmaker>you're doing it wrong, Rubidium ! ;-)
04:16<zodttd>It's three license files in scroll boxes labeled for each product, then a play on button.
04:16<@Rubidium>planetmaker: tell me how to do it right, i.e. tell me how to install Mac OS X in VirtualBox
04:16<zodttd>Eep! Try VMWare
04:16<zodttd>Should work better
04:16<planetmaker>:-) @ Rubidium
04:17<planetmaker>I know that you tried
04:17<planetmaker>(or I think that I know. whatever)
04:18<@Rubidium>zodttd: vmware has always been a hell for me to get properly installed; virtualbox is just dead easy
04:18<zodttd>True. I just know Mac OS X can run in VMWare some how some way. Not sure about VirtualBox. :/
04:19<@Rubidium>new kernel: virtualbox says okay, lets compile a new module. vmware says: huh, hell no, I don't know that kernel... you first need to google for some third party patch to make my code compile with that kernel
04:19<@peter1138>Ammler, wow, i agree with you for once :p
04:19<Ammler>for once, I didn't make a request :-P
04:19<@Rubidium>ah, good... no zlib 1.2.4 in the ipa
04:20<zodttd>zlib is a part of the iPhone OS and is dynamically linked
04:20<@peter1138>is it 1.2.4? hehe
04:20<@peter1138>(i doubt it, but you never know)
04:20<zodttd>Oh, I will check in a bit if needed
04:21<@Rubidium>libpng is kinda old, but who am I to complain about that
04:21<@peter1138>zodttd, just there's a bug in 1.2.4 that breaks content download
04:21<zodttd>Eww, well content download works. So probably not 1.2.4 :D
04:22<@Rubidium>does the downloaded content work, that's the real question :)
04:22<zodttd>I will recheck, but it should
04:23<chaos95>there's a bug in openttd that breaks content downloading for me, it's called BaNaNaS
04:23<planetmaker>you're not helpful, chaos95
04:24<chaos95>planetmaker: well the only way that it can be fixed is if BaNaNaS is essentially totally reimplemented to work via http :P
04:24<planetmaker>that was more helpful ;-)
04:25<@peter1138>that's odd
04:25<chaos95>until then I'll have to deal with not being able to download content in-game on my lunch breaks
04:25<@peter1138>cos my content mirror is http...
04:25<planetmaker>or you could add an exception to your firewall :-P
04:26<chaos95>planetmaker: I'll call IT and tell them to do that :P
04:27<@peter1138> - [16/Apr/2010:09:25:14 +0100] "GET /binaries/bananas/newgrf/Japanese_Buildings-2.0.tar.gz HTTP/1.0" 200 739362 "-" "OpenTTD/1.0.0"
04:27<@peter1138>yup, looks like http to me
04:27<chaos95>peter1138: but getting the actual content list isn't
04:28<@Rubidium>isn't there some socks-over-http proxy stuff?
04:28<@Rubidium>I know there is a socks-over-dns thing
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04:29<chaos95>Rubidium: there are ways around it; I have an ssh tunnel out to a shell, which I can piggyback other tunnels onto
04:29<chaos95>but I just haven't got around to doing all the necessary tweaks to /etc/hosts and my ssh config
04:30<chaos95>not to mention I'm not sure that bananas will use an http proxy when attempting to download from content mirrors
04:30<@Rubidium>I'm quite sure it won't
04:31<Noldo>http-proxys are so 1995
04:31<chaos95>so yeah that makes it tricky.. I can possibly try something with iptables
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04:32<@Rubidium>zodttd: that ipa will still be advertised as version 1.0.0, right?
04:32<chaos95>after which I'll write a paper on per-application transparent http proxy configuration
04:33<chaos95>but yeah, if bananas were able to grab the http_proxy environment variable and use said proxy when performing http stuff it would be awesome.
04:34<@Rubidium>chaos95: squid + transparent proxying works fine
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04:34<Noldo>chaos95: write a patch
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04:40<@peter1138>is that environment variable available on all OSes?
04:42<Noldo>propably not
04:43<chaos95>peter1138: nah it's not, that's the problem
04:44<chaos95>although I'd be happy with a setting within the application
04:44<chaos95>Noldo: I may just do that
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05:05<@Rubidium>zodttd: the copyright stuff is something that isn't encoded in the ipa, right?
05:06<zodttd>Wait. Rephrase.
05:15<@Rubidium>should I rephrase or are you rephrasing your answer?
05:15<zodttd>Please rephrase for me. Didn't understand completely.
05:16<@Rubidium>the "2005-2010 (c) OpenTTD Team" I saw in the snapshot/screenshot of the itunes page, is that coming from the .ipa or from somewhere else (e.g. some edit box on their submission website)?
05:16<zodttd>Somewhere else (iTunesConnect backend)
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05:23<@peter1138>OpenTTD © 2002-2010 The OpenTTD team
05:23<@peter1138>hmm, 2002? heh
05:23<@peter1138>That's what OpenTTD says, anyway
05:23<zodttd>I got it from your website
05:24<@peter1138>that's the copyright for the website :p
05:24<zodttd>Oh my! I will change accordingly
05:25<zodttd>Assuming I can do so via the update function.
05:25<@peter1138>double check with Rubidium, he's more thorough than me
05:26<zodttd>Ok :)
05:28<@Rubidium>peter1138: apparantly ludde started in 2002
05:29<@Rubidium>"fun" thing is that even if it's not correct, we're bound by the license to keep the copyright notice intact
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05:46<zodttd>Thank you Rubidium. I truly appreciate it.
05:47<zodttd>Thanks to the rest of the OpenTTD Team as well. I will be sticking around here. If you have any requests, concerns, or just anything to talk about, feel free to contact me anytime.
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05:51<dihedral>zottd.... fix some os x bugs :-D
05:51<dihedral>and submit the patches :-P
05:52<dihedral>i bet pm, yexo, or me are happy to skim over them for coding style - as good as we can of course :-P
05:52<dihedral>or a bunch of others ^^
05:52<zodttd>Heh. Cool. I will look into them. I have to see how the Mac version was built in terms of libraries/frameworks used.
05:52<zodttd>Cool. I don't mind code being refactored at all. :D
05:52<planetmaker>you'll need cocoa framework. and zlib
05:52<planetmaker>and libpng
05:52<dihedral>well... it would be awesome if it used plain cocoa instead of quarz
05:53<planetmaker>other than that it's not being built using xcode, rather the linux way
05:53<planetmaker>using configure && make
05:53<dihedral>./confire may i please? ;-P
05:53<planetmaker>no ;-)
05:53<dihedral>typo just in the wrong moment
05:53<planetmaker>not now, thanks ;-)
05:55<dihedral>grrr - dns update is taking to damn long!
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06:07<NoobCp>That junction posted yesterday might have been horrid but that scenario map looks rather awesome Europe in pretty good detail.
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06:18<mikk36|work>how do i get a blank working openttd.cfg without graphical user interface?
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06:21<planetmaker>delete it and start openttd
06:21<planetmaker>it will be written automatically upon exiting openttd
06:21<planetmaker>openttd -D will start openttd in dedicated mode as server
06:21<mikk36|work>hm, is it located somewhere else than its own folder?
06:22<mikk36|work>aha, .openttd
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06:23<dihedral>*cough* readme *cough*
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06:42<Cadde>NoobCp: Not big enough, needs more tiles :D
06:43<Cadde>One of these days we are going to see maps that takes a week to scroll across :D
06:47<NoobCp>That's not fun ;/
06:48<Cadde>After an hour of scrolling you leave the planet :D
06:48<NoobCp>There wouldn't be a whole lot of bulk goods leaving the planet tho
06:48*mecool :)
06:48<Cadde>And we have a new breed of transportation ofc, intergalactic space ships. That hauls space cows
06:49<Forked>10k players on a single map
06:49<Forked>oh happy cloud computing
06:58<NoobCp>Ha, game 59 doesn't exist!
07:07<NoobCp>Ash in the jets?
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07:25*mecool brb
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08:34<NoobCp>For some reason I'm seeing a passengers accepted line on a coal mine tile...
08:35<@Rubidium>yeah, they would like some workers
08:35<@Rubidium>but not enough for there to be a demand for a station
08:36<SpComb>ship ALL you passengers from the whole map there!
08:36<@Rubidium>if there is enough demand in the area (another coal mine and steel mill or so) the station will start accepting passengers
08:36<NoobCp>I've been wondering if oil rigs or factories could be used for that actually, passenger sinks
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08:38<NoobCp>Two way transport (freeder shipline) complicates things with the oil rig a tiny bit tho
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08:51<mikk36|work>could someone explain me the meaning of reserve_path ?
08:51<mikk36|work>in the config
08:52<@Rubidium>michi_cc: ^^ :)
08:53<mikk36|work>oh, it makes every signal type act as a pbs signal?
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>more like it shows the path reservations
08:57<@Rubidium>isn't that "show_track_reservation"?
08:57<Eddi|zuHause>hm... then i don't know
08:58<@Rubidium>why do you think I left it to michi_cc :)
08:58<Eddi|zuHause>src/train_cmd.cpp: seg_state = ? SIGSEG_PBS : UpdateSignalsOnSegment(v->tile, INVALID_DIAGDIR, v->owner);
08:58<Eddi|zuHause>looks like "reserve paths even though no PBS signal is nearby"
08:59<Ammler> <-- wiki is also quite short about explanation :-)
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>but that doesn't change the meaning of the signal
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09:29<ccfreak2k>The web site asked me what I was doing six years ago.
09:29<ccfreak2k>I don't think it's any of its business!
09:29<blathijs>"The web site?"
09:30<welshdragon>blathijs: < first line under 1.0.0
09:31<blathijs>Ah :-)
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10:17<NoobCp>Are overtaking crossings like those actually effective? Seems to rely on a rather long train spacing, and blind to wether the next track is blocked or not...
10:18<Pikka>looks like presignals to me
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10:19<Pikka>you don't need those big long crossovers if you're using PBS, just have an X between two parallel lines
10:19<NoobCp>Oh yeah, I forgot about PBS
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>that looks very useless indeed...
10:22<Ammler>pbs "overtaking" lines does make sense for >2 lines
10:22<Ammler>else you would need to make the lines bidirectional
10:25<NoobCp>This might work
10:25<NoobCp>Thanks for the idea Pikka
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>,%2023.%20Maer%201942.png <- a triple track line with bidirectional overtaking in the middle
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10:28<Eddi|zuHause>the trick is, the signal distance must be long enough for overtaking to actually succeed
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise trains might get blocked by a train coming from the other side
10:29<NoobCp>I think I'll use a four track line instead, don't feel like experimenting with that yet
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10:33<Eddi|zuHause>i rarely have use for 4 track lines, and if so, they are separated freight/passenger lines and thus LRLR
10:35<NoobCp>I'm concerned about poor acceleration with 12 tile trains
10:35<Pikka>UUDD UDUD? :P
10:35<nighthawk_c_m>Use 3 engines ^
10:35<nighthawk_c_m>then the acceleration won't get worse then with one,
10:36<NoobCp>And not 4 or 5 engines?
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10:40<nighthawk_c_m>well - experiment
10:40<nighthawk_c_m>there is a calculation somwhere, but I dunno where actually
10:41<nighthawk_c_m>But with 12 Tile trains always remember to make the curves at least 12 tiles long too - otherwise you have slowdowns there
10:42<NoobCp>Perhaps not in 1950 but yeah, don't think the scenario I made has enough space for that
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10:49<NoobCp>That article shouldn't link to openttdcoop wiki tho, there's no equivalent load balancer shown
10:51<nighthawk_c_m>well, many junwhich one do you mean?
10:51<NoobCp>the station example in the bottom
10:52<NoobCp>Perhaps I misanderstand the intention of the reference
10:53<nighthawk_c_m>You mean the high capacity railway station?
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10:53<nighthawk_c_m>It should work fine, two incoming tracks that can access every station track - the PBS reserving the track onto a plattform
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10:54<NoobCp>I'm thinking if the station is flowing near capacity both exits will be about equally filled anyway
10:55<nighthawk_c_m>well, you don't need pbs at the end/exit, whoever developed that uses PBS way too much, regular signals do just fine there, and die to train length I think it should run pretty smooth
10:56<nighthawk_c_m>Usdue to *
10:56<nighthawk_c_m>And regularly I plan 6 - 8 Plattforms for a high capacity line - liek a main Station that recieves a lot of goods or so
10:56<NoobCp>Wasn't thinking of using that example tho
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10:59<nighthawk_c_m>Stations is a thing of taste + situation + landscape
11:00<nighthawk_c_m>often I find that I have a very good design at hand but can't use it due to landscape limitations, I use nearly no terraforming so ...
11:02<Eddi|zuHause><Pikka> UUDD UDUD? :P <-- "up" and "down" don't make any sense in a decentralised network :p
11:03<NoobCp>I'm strange, to get myself into the game I'm trying to play on flat land
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12:50<nighthawk_c_m>can someone explainme how to change a newgrf parameter ?
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12:59<Pikka>whoever created those images has good taste in grfs :P
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13:06<nighthawk_c_m>what do you mean oikka?
13:06<nighthawk_c_m>Pikka .. damn typo
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13:11<Eddi|zuHause>nighthawk_c_m: most of these grfs are made by him :p
13:11<nighthawk_c_m>I am trying to figure out how to set ecs up so mines don't run dry and so on
13:11<nighthawk_c_m>but I am unsure if I do the parameter thing correctly
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>you need to set the "general behaviour" parameter for each grf
13:12<nighthawk_c_m>oh, for each grf I understood it was only to be set for the basics grf
13:12<planetmaker>hm, one can read parameters of other grfs, right? I wonder why george doesn't use that...
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know if you can do that
13:13<nighthawk_c_m>well the wikki described it somewhat like that - but maybe I am missunderstanding something here
13:13<planetmaker>I think FIRS does something like that in order to check for compatibility
13:13<planetmaker>being incompatible with some newgrfs only if they set (or don't set) certain parameters
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>i only know that ECS parameters are a huge mess, because "general behaviour" isn't always the first parameter
13:14<planetmaker>sounds like IDs need a change and a re-work of that part
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13:15<Eddi|zuHause>george said he might change that when he changes the GRF-ID...
13:15<planetmaker>yeah, that's what will be required.
13:16<planetmaker>I think it might really make sense to just set parameters to the base grf.
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>but just changing the parameters is not enough to warrant such a change
13:16<planetmaker>and read those
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: then teach him how to do that ;)
13:17<nighthawk_c_m>but now comes the prize question - how do I know if I set the parameters right?
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>i set them to 12 usually
13:17<Yexo><nighthawk_c_m> but now comes the prize question - how do I know if I set the parameters right? <- you play the game and see if it behaves as you expect
13:18<Yexo>if it doesn't you post in the ecs topic so george can look at it
13:18<nighthawk_c_m>Yeah, well, wasting time is not really what I am looking for ...
13:19<planetmaker>nighthawk_c_m: then I propose you pickup work instead of playing and chatting :-P
13:21<nighthawk_c_m>I am more or less eeking someone who knows how to set up the ecs parameters - trial and error can take forever depending on how abindant the resources under a coal mine are
13:29<planetmaker>nighthawk_c_m: the readme for the ecs vectors will tell you
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13:45<nighthawk_c_m>think i got it now
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19640 /trunk/src/lang/ (dutch.txt portuguese.txt):
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: dutch - 2 changes by Yexo
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: portuguese - 12 changes by JayCity
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13:48<andythenorth>hi hi
13:51<Terkhen>hi andythenorth
13:52<andythenorth>@seen frosch123
13:52<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 20 hours, 54 minutes, and 29 seconds ago: <frosch123> though i have none of them in my world file. no idea what actually pulls them in :p
13:53<andythenorth>I am drowning in "FIRS" bug reports for broken industry placement :|
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13:55<andythenorth>^ he must have sensed that :)
13:56<andythenorth>frosch123: hi hi
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13:58*frosch123 assumed this is not the right place to mention that he touched an ipad today
13:58<frosch123>though i was not allowed to burn it :(
13:59<Forked>stomp on it?
13:59<planetmaker>blend it
13:59<@Rubidium>planetmaker: :)
13:59<@Rubidium>with an apple!
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14:00<planetmaker> <-- similar to that? :-)
14:01<@Rubidium>pad smoke, don't breath this :)
14:02<@Rubidium>yeah, planetmaker like that :)
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14:02<@Rubidium>ofcourse why use youtube when you can use the real site
14:02<planetmaker>well, yes :-)
14:02<planetmaker>first link on google search :-P
14:02<planetmaker>but it's what I remembered
14:03<planetmaker>he, is the ipad version actually already appropriately modified?
14:03-!-oal [] has joined #openttd
14:03<oal>Is the downlaod server down?
14:04<@Belugas>how was the experience, frosch123?
14:04<planetmaker>doesn't look like
14:04<oal>A friend of mine is not able to download openttd
14:04<TrueBrain>one of our mirrors is currently down
14:04<oal>Not me either if I try
14:04<TrueBrain>let me put it offline ...
14:04-!-Alberth [] has joined #openttd
14:04<oal>TrueBrain: Can you change mirrors?
14:05<TrueBrain>oal: try it now
14:06<oal>It works, thanks! :)
14:07-!-str00tz [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:08<frosch123>Belugas: well, i even hardly use cell phones, so such stuff hardly exaits me. i could watch a slide presentation for the coming industry fair on it, and when i noticed the gravity sensor rotating the screen i could only think about all those misgenerated pdf and ps (from scanners etc) which come in wrong orientation :p
14:08<TrueBrain>(and then to imagine I never read this channel in general without highlight! I am all proud I catched this :p)
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14:10*Alberth buys TB a beer
14:10<TrueBrain>that sounds like an amazing idea to do tonight
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14:12<@Rubidium>ehlo :)
14:12<Pyr0>I came here just to thank everyone involved in openttd dev for such a great game
14:14*Belugas nods at frosch123
14:16<@Rubidium>frosch123: sounds like my cellphone usage... as long as it can make a phone call without too much hassle it's fine with me
14:16<@Rubidium>don't need 8G or whatever is greatest and bestest right now
14:16<__ln__>Pyr0: remember to thank Chris Sawyer for TTD too.
14:17<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19641 /trunk/src/lang/unfinished/irish.txt: -Add: stub for an Irish translation
14:17<Pyr0>I had always thanked him :)
14:18<Terkhen>I tend to drop my cellphone a lot, I always pick the most sturdy looking from the cheap ones
14:18<Terkhen>besides that... I don't care :P
14:18<TrueBrain>Pyr0: how kind of you :)
14:19<TrueBrain>Rubidium: FYI, master is now IPv6 mirror, nl is out of rotation. Please remind me to reset it when it is up again :p
14:20<@Rubidium>lennard: ^^ :)
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>irish is a language?
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>i thought they speak english there
14:21<TrueBrain>it is if we say so, not?
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>or is that some gaelic thing like welsh?
14:21<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: apparantly it is an official language in the EU
14:22<Noldo>what isn't official language in EU
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>Noldo: luxembourgish
14:22<TrueBrain>he shoot and he SCORES!!!!
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14:23<@Rubidium>Noldo: Luxembourgish, Turkish, Romani, Welsh, Scottish Gaelic, Austrian German, Flemish, Belgian French, Frisian, Saami, Serbo-Croatian
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>apparently, they consider it "just" a dialect of german :p
14:23<@Belugas>thanks frosch123
14:23<@Rubidium>Noldo: semi-official are Catalan, Galician and Basque.
14:23<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: irish gaelic
14:23<Sacro>and scots is gaelic
14:23<Sacro>basque eh
14:23<Noldo>I wonder about saami
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>Sacro: my teacher once flamed be because "scottish isn't a language"
14:24<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: it isn't
14:24<Sacro>the language is 'scots'
14:24<Sacro>as are the people
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>but that's not the answer she gave me...
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>fucking youtube...
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>they screwed with direct downloading again. and they tell me to update flash player...
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14:38<__ln__>Noldo: english only, it's 'sami'.
14:38-!-Pyr0 [~chatzilla@] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]]
14:38<__ln__>and what, there was a Mac version of the original Transport Tycoon?
14:39<Sacro>iirc yes
14:40<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: likely:
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>can't have been any success when they didn't even release world editor for it
14:46<@Rubidium>ln: Saami is English too;
14:48<__ln__>Rubidium: The Oxford English Dictionary doesn't recognize that form.
14:49<CIA-6>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19642 /trunk/src/vehicle_gui.cpp:
14:49<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Add: Sort cargos alphabetically at the "Reffitable to" label in the
14:49<CIA-6>OpenTTD: build vehicle window.
14:51<Noldo>__ln__: so it's Oxford English only now?
14:52<__ln__>Noldo: That's the way I would prefer, but the topic is a little vague.
14:55-!-peter1138 changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.0.0 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | Full English Breakfast only
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15:04<@Rubidium>then call them by their main term for general use by the Oxford dictionary: Lappi
15:07*Ammler wonders, why it needs "English only" in the topic while __ln__ is in the channel...
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15:10<theholyduck>Rubidium, i'm fairly sure the lapp as the scandinavian term for them is a bit derogatory.
15:10<theholyduck>i'm not sure if it transfers to english
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15:11<@Rubidium>theholyduck: oh yes, the dictionary says that they prefer Sami
15:12<@Rubidium>Ammler: because if it isn't there ln would be of no use in the channel
15:12<dihedral>hehe :-P
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15:17<oal>Is there a way to auto replace all very old vehicles?
15:17<oal>Or auto renew
15:18<@Rubidium>yup, just look it up on the wiki
15:18<@Rubidium>it's actually called autoreplace and autorenew
15:18<@Rubidium>it'll also tell what the difference between the two is
15:18<@Rubidium>there are some cases where autorenew and autoreplace don't work, but that's usually when the vehicle you want can't be bought anymore
15:19<@Rubidium>or you're using NewGRFs that disallow connecting certain vehicles after a certain time
15:21<andythenorth>frosch123: map generator industry placement issues
15:21<andythenorth>been reported multiple times. Also a different one about 64x64 maps
15:22<andythenorth>if it's non-trivial I'll FS it tomorrow, my brain is fried today.
15:22<andythenorth>I've seen the issue, but not sure exactly which nightly I was using
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15:52<frosch123>andythenorth: it is intentional that the number of generated industries is not influences by the number of available industry types. so if a normal map contains 10 industrytypes with ten industries each, that makes 100 industries. if only one industrytype is available that will result in 100 industies of that type
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15:53*andythenorth hmmms a bit
15:53<andythenorth>so it's a feature not a bug? :P
15:53<frosch123>it was changed just before 1.0. actually to some extent by your request :p
15:54<frosch123>oh, and it also conforms to newgrf specs :)
15:55<andythenorth>it's a bit weird that only 2048x2048 produces crazy results though
15:56<andythenorth>I remember the changes -that's why I want the OTTD version numbers from the (multiple) forum posters who have reported this ;)
15:58<frosch123>there was recently a fs task about hardly any industries being generated, but on asking for a demo savegame, the task author was not able to reproduce it
15:58<frosch123>so, just ask them to post a savegame. a savegame tells everything about used version, used grf version, settings, and generation seed
15:59<andythenorth>yup ok
15:59<frosch123>that looks like a fault of your grf. did you zero the appearence property?
16:00<andythenorth>nope, that would be *really* dumb :)
16:00<frosch123>i.e. ottd first generates at least one industry per type (unless the special industry flag is set, which says to not do so), and then generated the rest according to the probability property.
16:00<andythenorth>except when it doesn't :)
16:00<frosch123>though it only controls the number of "tries to generate an industry". if the map is too hilly there will be less industries of big industries nevertheless
16:01<andythenorth>flat map
16:01<andythenorth>as you said - a savegame would help :)
16:02<TrueBrain>LOL! What happens if you connect 2 ports of your switch with one cable, and if that switch is VERY cheap?
16:02<SpComb>TrueBrain: it fries and never works again
16:02<TrueBrain>no, it is not that bad
16:02<TrueBrain>a 'normal' switch would disable both ports btw
16:02<SpComb>corrupted packets?
16:03<TrueBrain>nope; endless packets
16:03<Alberth>it talks to itself
16:03<TrueBrain>they never expire
16:03<SpComb>if your definition of 'normal' means a managed one...
16:03<SpComb>TrueBrain: well, of course
16:03<TrueBrain>so guess what happens then, when you put such switch in a big network of switches
16:03<SpComb>the whole thing crashes
16:03<SpComb>old hat
16:03<Alberth>black hole!
16:03<andythenorth>frosch123: the second screenie is same everything except 1024x1024 instead of 2048x2048 (and different random seed I guess)
16:03<SpComb>it happens all the time
16:03<TrueBrain>SpComb: even non-managed ones detect that the ports are connected to eachother
16:03<SpComb>never ran into one of those
16:03<TrueBrain>well, nothing crashes .... it just floods the whole darn network with endless (in this case arp) packets
16:03<SpComb>and you can still hook up two switches to eachother
16:04<TrueBrain>in result ... our whole network was completely flooded, not allowing any normal packet to go through ... takes a while to isolate :p
16:04<TrueBrain>stupid roommates :p
16:04<andythenorth>move out
16:04<TrueBrain>it was amuzing
16:04<TrueBrain>they are all on 100mbit switches
16:04<TrueBrain>I have a 1gbit switch
16:04<TrueBrain>but it even killed my switch
16:04<frosch123>andythenorth: well, maybe i failed to estimate the maxima of some variables and it overflows somewhere
16:05<TrueBrain>even in my off hours, I have to troubleshoot networks :(
16:08<andythenorth>frosch123: the only weird thing is that FIRS fails at 2048x2048, but default industries doesn't. Neither does PBI.
16:09<andythenorth>ECS however has the same issue
16:09<George>andythenorth: Fails? What do you mean&
16:10<andythenorth>strange numbers of industries.
16:10<George>It takes 5 minutes to generate the map here, but I can't say it means FAIL
16:10<George>what do you mean STRANGE?
16:11<frosch123>ok, andy, reproduced :)
16:12<Sacro>TrueBrain: we had a housemate connect a hub and a router that were already connecteed
16:13<George>andythenorth: I see
16:13<Sacro>instant 100% usage and i recived about 10 billion packets in a minute
16:13<Alberth>that should be enough for a lifetime :)
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16:16<frosch123>haha, RandomRange only takes an uint16
16:16<frosch123>so passing 200704 is troublesome :)
16:19*Terkhen wonders if anyone besides andythenorth uses violet as the land colour for the smallmap
16:19<planetmaker>Terkhen: it can be pretty nice
16:19*andythenorth wonders why everyone doesn't :o
16:19<planetmaker>and I'd assume it's even nicer for those with red/green issues
16:22<Terkhen>dark green is enough to solve them for me... I find violet too dark
16:23<Terkhen>the industries can be seen more clearly, but not the roads
16:23<planetmaker>granted, I use the green contour version
16:29<oal>I'm totally addicted to OpenTTD ... again! :/
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17:21<@Rubidium>Q: what error message would you use to tell a cactus can't be built outside the desert and rain forest trees can't be built outside the rain forest?
17:22<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r19643 /trunk/src/ (core/random_func.cpp core/random_func.hpp industry_cmd.cpp): -Fix (r19120): Industry generation failed for large maps and lots of industry types.
17:22<aber>wrong biocoenosis
17:22<@Rubidium>"wrong climate for tree type" <- interferes with climates for the whole landscape, i.e. someone might assume that if the cactus can't be build in the tropic climate it should be build in temperate/arctic
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17:23<Terkhen>good night
17:23<Yexo>Rubidium / TrueBrain: is the source for webtranslator public? if so, where I can download it?
17:23<@Rubidium>"wrong terrain for tree type" <- interferes with the terrain type setting from the world generation window (terrain type: ... flat)
17:23<Alberth>wrong area for tree?
17:23<@Rubidium>Yexo: it isn't public (yet)
17:24<@Rubidium>I can't make it public in any case though
17:24<Yexo>oh, why not?
17:25<planetmaker>root pw?
17:25<Progman>"wrong ground (type) for tree type"?
17:25<@Rubidium>because I'm not the copyright owner? Because he had plans of making it a separate project
17:25<Yexo>oh, in that way
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17:25<Yexo>you're saying I should ask TrueBrain instead of you :)
17:27<@Rubidium>yes, although you technically have access to its source code
17:27<TrueBrain>the only reason I never made WT3.0 public, is that I do not want to support it on any other system, as that is kind of impossible :p
17:27<TrueBrain>it is held together with .. well .. lot of glue :p
17:27<TrueBrain>WT3.1 is started, but Rubidium shut down the VPS :p
17:27<TrueBrain>(mwhahahaha :p)
17:27<planetmaker>it has a very deserted channel at #webtranslator :-(
17:28<TrueBrain>and yes, you can view the source via your developers account
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17:28<Yexo>just viewing the source wasn't the point
17:28<planetmaker>and is down...
17:28<Yexo>TrueBrain: for you information: I'm (together with Hirundo) creating a meta language for nfo
17:28<TrueBrain>Yexo: then what is?
17:28<Yexo>so far the language files look a lot like the openttd language files
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17:29<Yexo>so I hoped wt could be used for such projects too
17:29<str00tz>if i made some kinda stupid mistake at the start of a game, can i reset myself ?
17:29<TrueBrain>WT3.0 for sure not
17:29<TrueBrain>it is a complete mess
17:29<TrueBrain>WT3.1 should be able, but it is far from finished
17:29<+glx>you need language files for nfo meta language?
17:29<Yexo>glx: yes, for all strings that are part of the nfo normally
17:30<@Rubidium>it's not to translate the nfo meta language, but to translate the projects using the language
17:30<@Rubidium>(or at least, that's what I understand of it)
17:30<Yexo>^^that's true, I should've made that clearer
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>str00tz: you can start a game with the same random seed, to get the same map again
17:31<+glx>ha that's just grf translations then
17:31<planetmaker>glx: well. 'just' ;-)
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>str00tz: you can get the current random seed from the ingame console
17:31<Yexo>str00tz: open the console (key left of 1 on your keyboard), then type "reset"
17:31<Yexo>eh, sorry, "restart"
17:31<str00tz>Eddi|zuHause, but not in multiplayer right ?
17:31<+glx>and meta language just ease the insertion of translations in the grf
17:31<str00tz>Yexo, thankyou :)
17:32<str00tz>Yexo, i get error tho
17:32<frosch123>nfo translation and ottd translation is quite different wrt. control codes, isn't it?
17:32<Yexo>but that's for singleplayer too, not for multiplayer
17:32<frosch123>i.e. in nfo you have no genders and cases, and you cannot reorder parameters either
17:32<str00tz>dso if i screw up in multi, i ..well, have to just leave
17:32<planetmaker>frosch123: yes. But if you use a meta language you can translate
17:32<frosch123>otoh you have other parameters
17:32<Yexo>frosch123: I didn't like the nfo control codes, so I'm parsing codes that look like those inthe openttd language files
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>nfo-languages really need genders
17:32<frosch123>planetmaker: what do you want to do?
17:33<@Rubidium>Progman: good idea, but I doubt it's purely "ground", i.e. soil, that differentiates non-rainforest and rain forest
17:33<frosch123>a metalanguage removes none of the restrictions i mentioned
17:33-!-Guest228 is now known as welshdragon
17:33<@Rubidium>but then, I've not studied the subject intensely
17:33<planetmaker>frosch123: it doesn't. But it allows to use for those features which are common to use the same syntax
17:34<Yexo>str00tz: move yourself to spectators, then start a new company
17:35<planetmaker>frosch123: and: there might be some feature requests lurking ;-)
17:35<Yexo><frosch123> i.e. in nfo you have no genders and cases, and you cannot reorder parameters either <- yes, so the grf-translations are a lot simpeler
17:35<str00tz>Yexo, thanks :)
17:37<frosch123>planetmaker: just don't tell mb or similiar :) they might answer to distinguish languages inside action2 to rearrange parameters. (which is not possible in ottd due to desyncs)
17:37<Yexo>but ok, if wt3 isn't useable I'll leave that idea for now
17:37<planetmaker>haha @ frosch123 :-)
17:38<@Rubidium>why would mb care about order? As long as it's the German order it's correct. Anything but German isn't correct for a German train set
17:38<frosch123>Rubidium: mb plays french version of ttd
17:38<frosch123>and does turkish translations on ttdp wiki
17:38<Yexo>with some tricky usage of byte "86 rotate down top 4 words on stack" it might actually be possible to rotate parameters in a newgrf string
17:39<frosch123>so, either he is googling all day for train terms in foreign languages, or he knows some languages
17:42<@Rubidium>frosch123: definitely googling... after all, how can you know so many trains to play in that guess the train topic?
17:43<frosch123>sounds like tt-forums off-topic :p
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17:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19644 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt tree_cmd.cpp):
17:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#3728]: don't allow building cacti outside of the desert or rain forest
17:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: trees outside of the rain forest area. This to prevent people from thinking
17:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: planting rain forest trees makes the rain forest bigger and thus adds more place
17:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: to build a lumber mill.
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17:58<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19645 /trunk/known-bugs.txt: -Doc: mention the zlib gzeof issue in known-bugs
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18:02<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19646 /branches/1.0/ (12 files in 7 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:02<CIA-6>OpenTTD: [1.0] -Backport from trunk:
18:02<CIA-6>OpenTTD: - Change: Log the _date and _date_fract in the desync log for saved games (r19638)
18:02<CIA-6>OpenTTD: - Fix: Do not allow building cacti outside of the desert or rain forest trees
18:02<CIA-6>OpenTTD: outside of the rain forest area. This to prevent people from thinking planting
18:02<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rain forest trees makes the rain forest bigger and thus adds more place to build
18:02<CIA-6>OpenTTD: a lumber mill [FS#3728] (r19644, r19635, r19634)
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18:13<amalloy>i'm trying to host a game, but i can't figure out how to make it work. i've set up port forwarding on my router, and a random stranger joined my game, but neither my friend nor i can join it evenn via my IP. any ideas?
18:14<amalloy>well, that was fast. my friend was just being dumb. never mind :)
18:14<Cadde>What IP/Port
18:14<Cadde>Good good
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18:18<@Rubidium>amalloy: due to the "design" of most consumer internet modems/routers you cannot connect from the internal network to the port forwarded port on the external IP; it is actually quite unusual if it supports it
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18:45<Eddi|zuHause>why do i have to laugh about the sentence "This is a known feature"? :p
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18:54<@Rubidium>because you didn't know laughing is a feature of the human body?
18:54<@Rubidium>why doesn't var_dump work in C++?
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23:27<Asheron>Greetings, all
23:29<Asheron>Im having a bit of a problem with some AIs for the game, they keep crashing, I couldnt get a screen shot, but the gist of it is that it cant find the .nut file,
23:30<Asheron>Do I just copy those into the AI folder from my downloaded content, or the entire folder, some of them have the same filenames, eg. libray.nut, and main.nut
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23:34<mib_fy014t>Hi, is the websited down?
23:35<Asheron>hold on I will check
23:36<mib_fy014t>ok cheers. i am getting a 504 gateway timeout
23:37<Asheron>That could mean either you have a ISP timeout, or thier server is down
23:37<mib_fy014t>how could i check that it is my ISP that is the problem?
23:37<Asheron>I get them from time to time on IRC kinda the same principle as a ping timeout
23:38<Asheron>How fast are other web pages loading?
23:38<mib_fy014t>They are fine. Google/BBC/Ubuntu are all fine
23:38<Asheron>The wiki is up
23:38<Asheron>Then it isnt your ISP
23:39<mib_fy014t>Yeah I can access the wiki, just not the page
23:40<Asheron>IRC has two primary types of time outs one is a ping timeout, and the other is a TCP/IP time out
23:40<Asheron>The first is a result of a drop of connection (if I remember correctly) between the contact server and the ISP
23:41<Asheron>The TCP/IP timeout occurs when your computer loses touch with your ISP
23:42<Asheron>504s occur much the same way
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23:42<mib_fy014t>well it is sort of weird that i can access the wiki but not the front page.
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23:43-!-DaleStan_ is now known as DaleStan
23:43<Nite_Owl>Hello all
23:43<Asheron>one server doesnt recieve a timely response, not necessarily an ISP , it could even be a proxy server acting as a gateway, the proxy and the server you want to connect didnt communicate fast enough
23:44<Nite_Owl>I was going to ask the same question about not being able to access the main page
23:44<Asheron>more than likely the server is down for maintenance,
23:44<mib_fy014t>so is the wiki on a different server then?
23:45<Asheron>Wiki is on wiki's servers
23:45<mib_fy014t>ok cheers. i'll try again tomorrow
23:45<Nite_Owl>most likely but it has been inaccessible for a few hours now
23:45<mib_fy014t>thanks for your help Asheron
23:45<Asheron>almost all the wiki's are freehosted by the same people that brought you Wikipedia and Wookiepedia
23:45<Asheron>not a problem
23:45<Asheron>maybe you can help me with one of mine
23:45<mib_fy014t>have a good w/e
23:46<Asheron>Greetings, all
23:46<Asheron><Asheron> Im having a bit of a problem with some AIs for the game, they keep crashing, I couldnt get a screen shot, but the gist of it is that it cant find the .nut file,
23:46<Asheron><Asheron> Do I just copy those into the AI folder from my downloaded content, or the entire folder, some of them have the same filenames, eg. libray.nut, and main.nut
23:46<mib_fy014t>i can try
23:46<Asheron>Thats my basic prob
23:47<mib_fy014t>i am not the person to help you. not really dealt much with this aspect - sorry for that
23:47<Asheron>no prob, have a good night
23:47<Nite_Owl>I do not play with the AI's so I am not going to be much help either
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23:47<Asheron>So do you play on the competition servers?
23:48<Nite_Owl>most of the developers are based in Europe so figure the time difference to where you are and ask then
23:49<Asheron>5 hours + ahead of us
23:49<Asheron>London is like 6
23:49<Asheron>Germany is 8 or so
23:50<Nite_Owl>So they are still most likely asleep at this time
23:50-!-Guest247 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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23:50<Nite_Owl>They do tend to pop in rather early once they wake up
23:52<Asheron>chuckles N/O you missed what I was saying earlier about What IRC and 504s have in common, Guest247 had a ping timeout, that means that his
23:52<Asheron>ISP lost connection to the server, for about 8 minutes before the server disconnected a "ghost"
23:53<Nite_Owl>happens quite frequently around here - net splits are even worse sometimes
23:54<Asheron>Thats why they want everyone to register a nick, if you dont someone can come in using your nick, then you come in later, and everyone blames you for what the other person did
23:54<Asheron>Happened to me on a server that I admined,
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23:55<Asheron>They were flaming some people, one of the other admins called me at home, I hopped on and logged in under an alias and watched it,
23:56<Asheron>ghosted my nick back and put a full ban on thier IP addy, and I was tempted to block their host too
23:56<Nite_Owl>never fun but at least amusing
23:59<Asheron>The person had the nerve to email my "boss" the chat owner, and complain, I had already sent him an email with and identify/ which showed not only the full IP all 12 numbers, but I also pulled a nicklist from nickserv and showed the person who had a registered nick with that IP addy, and a log of the entire flamesession from the time I got there, as well as a log the other admin sent me from before I got there,
23:59<Asheron>he basically told the girl "To bad so sad hate it for you, but you are SOL"
---Logclosed Sat Apr 17 00:00:23 2010