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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-04-19

---Logopened Mon Apr 19 00:00:54 2010
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02:47<Terkhen>good morning
02:48<Pikka>ohayoo gozaimasu
02:49<planetmaker>oi oi, good morning chaps
02:50<@peter1138>ah, but IS it?
02:50<@Rubidium>no, definitely not
02:50<Pikka>it's nearly 5pm
02:50<Pikka>so no
02:51<planetmaker>we had a beatifully colourful sun rise here :-) So far so good :-)
02:53<@Rubidium> <- there, says it's not a good morning
02:53<planetmaker>I mostly don't care about pollen. Luckily
02:53<planetmaker>The usually only add a nice scent to the air.
02:54<planetmaker>Though there is probably one kind which lets me sneeze, too
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02:57<Mazur>Good mornings.
02:58<Mazur>Pollencount means nothing to me.
02:58<Terkhen>It is more of a wish than an statement :)
02:59<Terkhen>I'm allergic to olive polen, and I live in the zone with the biggest concentration of olive trees of the world
02:59<Terkhen>luckily this year is not being very strong
03:00<planetmaker>he... at least you have fresh native olive oli for cooking then ;-)
03:02<Ammler>pollen mixed with ash :-)
03:03<Mazur>Why has Ashley gotten mixed up with Pollen?
03:03<__ln__>olives, yuck
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03:03<Mazur>Olive oil mayonaise is yuck, but olives are yummy.
03:03<Mazur>And olive oil is good for baking.
03:04<Mazur>Lots of unsaturated fats.
03:05<planetmaker>olive oil is also good for salad dressings
03:05<Mazur>Sunflower oil is good for mayonaise.
03:06<planetmaker>and very good for Tomatoes, Mozarella cheese, add olive oil, vinegar and basil... yummi :-)
03:06*Mazur makes his own now.
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03:06<Mazur>Somehow I don'r see that working.
03:09<planetmaker>you don't see tomatoes, mozarella, basil, oil and balsamico vinegar working? Me neither. I see it rather eaten ;-)
03:10<Mazur>Not if it's Basil Fawlty.
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03:10<Mazur>It's a joke.
03:10<planetmaker>basil is a herb
03:10<Mazur>"misinterpreting" basil.
03:10<planetmaker>right.... Probably the joke only works on native speakers ;-)
03:11*planetmaker doesn't know any other meanings
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03:11<Mazur>And you have never seen Fawlty Towers.
03:11*planetmaker has no idea what that would be
03:11<planetmaker>nor actually my dictionary
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03:12<Mazur>John Cleese as an inept hotel-owner in Torquay, hag-ridden by his wife.
03:12<TT1a1a1>lol, just spent half a billion linking up Scotland's oil rigs to the main land to find out that I cant build the oil refinery where I wanted, is there a console command that will let me build a refinery anywhere?
03:13<planetmaker>TT1a1a1, no
03:13<planetmaker>you can only set the max distance to 48(?) from the border
03:13<TT1a1a1>thats a sore one
03:13<planetmaker>Mazur, sounds like a movie I haven't seen ;-)
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03:13<TT1a1a1>how do i set the max distance?
03:14<Mazur>It's a comedy series.
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03:14<planetmaker>ah. Even less of a wonder that I haven't seen it.
03:14<planetmaker>nor ever heart of it ;-)
03:14<Mazur>It's British.
03:14<Mazur>Very famous.
03:14<planetmaker>is it?
03:14<Mazur>very succesfull.
03:14<Mazur>It is.
03:15<planetmaker>maybe in Britain ;-)
03:15<Mazur>Aftr all, John Cleese is a Monty Python member.
03:15<planetmaker>TT1a1a1, in the advanced settings
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03:16<Mazur>Quite popular in Germany, too.
03:16<Mazur>Or so I heard.
03:16<planetmaker>Whatever :-) I was never known for the broadness of my knowledge in TV / movie stuff
03:17<TT1a1a1>ffs, whos idea was that? and why?
03:18<TT1a1a1>too limit the refinery to 48 squares from the edge
03:18<TT1a1a1>surely it should be within 48 squares of the sea instead of the edge of the map
03:18<@peter1138>chris sawyer's idea
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03:19<@peter1138>back then, mind you, there were only 256x256 maps
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03:20<Mazur>Time for a change, then? I mean, Rotterdam is not for nothing a major world port, with refineries all along the river.
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03:22<TT1a1a1>i imagine that the 48 squares will screw over other scenarios as well, Scotland is nowhere near the edge of the map... or the oil rigs
03:22<planetmaker>Mazur, newgrfs can change that easily.
03:22*Mazur was setting up tanker lines to Rotterdam until _he_ found out refineries can only be built along the edges of the map.
03:22<planetmaker>you could even write a newgrf which just changes that.
03:22<Mazur>TT1a1a1: The_Netherlands.
03:23<planetmaker>Still, I do personally think that the limit could be removed or at least the allowed range be 0...mapsize
03:23<Mazur>Hear, hear.
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03:24<planetmaker>default setting might still remain the TTD default setting
03:25<Mazur>That's no problem.
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03:28<TT1a1a1>if i build an oil refinery next to a station that has oil waiting, does it process it?
03:29<Harlequin>TT: It have to be delivered somewhere first before processing
03:30<planetmaker>yup. Otherwise you build a station in reach of an oil well and a refinery. And auto-magically all oil is processed after you sent one train there once, picking up one litre of oil.
03:31<Harlequin>Which is cheating in a way
03:31<TT1a1a1>got 6.5million litres to shift
03:31<planetmaker>would be. It's not the purpose of a transport game to build four stations on a 256^2 map and have covered everything without a single vehicle
03:32<planetmaker>TT1a1a1, that's reasonable.
03:32<planetmaker>have you never seen 30k passengers waiting? ;-)
03:33<Harlequin>I've seen 30k goods waitin
03:33<TT1a1a1>not even close
03:33<TT1a1a1>only 5k
03:33<planetmaker>TT1a1a1, easy, if you have a big town and transport all passengers there
03:33<Ammler>another limit to "fix" (station_spread) ;-)
03:33<planetmaker>to an ICE station
03:34<Harlequin>or to insane players ;)
03:35<Harlequin>darn i wanted to finish czech translation for those czech strings and it's locked
03:35<TT1a1a1>london has 142k, my local town has 137k, year 2124
03:35<Harlequin>well have nothin to do now... see you later alligator all
03:36<Ammler>we had 1 million pax waiting and a nice big save
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03:37<planetmaker>TT1a1a1, we built a map with 3 towns > 750k each :-)
03:37<planetmaker>accordingly were the s-bahn and ICE terminals ;-)
03:38<planetmaker>>30.000 transported per town and month
03:39<planetmaker>but then the aim was: grow the towns as big as possible :-)
03:41<Mazur>What is the difference between ICE and regular Inter-City.
03:42<Mazur>Just speed?
03:42<TT1a1a1>lol, nice
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03:42<TT1a1a1>what is ICE?
03:42<Mazur>Inter-City Express
03:43<Mazur>German concept.
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03:44<planetmaker>Mazur, it's different trains
03:45<planetmaker>and different price :-P
03:45<planetmaker>the ICE used to stop less. But that somehow is not really true anymore
03:50<TT1a1a1>lol, too close to another industry now that ive moved it to within 48 squares
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03:50<TT1a1a1>oil rigs all round the edge of the UK scenario is making this impossible
03:50<TT1a1a1>is there a way to see budget reports from after 3 years ago?
03:53<planetmaker>old savegames? ;-)
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03:54<TT1a1a1>ah, would be handy to see how much ive spend on trying to get at this north sea oil, first 2 years was 700m
03:54<TT1a1a1>how far away must industries be from each other?
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04:01<planetmaker>default industries? Just switch on to allow more than one per town ;-)
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04:14<TT1a1a1>its cool, created an island 48 squares from the edge for the oil refinery but it said it was too close to an other industry (oil rig)
04:14<TT1a1a1>got it now
04:15<TT1a1a1>ive got 30 ships in a depot, some have oil, is there a way to send them all somewhere and unload cargo without going through them one by one?
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04:21<xahodo>Why are tile classes 0xB through 0xF marked as reserved?
04:21<xahodo>And why will they crash the game if a tile uses them?
04:22<devilsadvocate>TT1a1a1, manage trains in the depot, and give them orders?
04:22<@peter1138>because they're not defined
04:22<TT1a1a1>ill give it a try
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04:25<xahodo>So that leftover space isn't used by anything else?
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04:26<@peter1138>it's not "leftover space"
04:26<@peter1138>if you added some brand new feature, you could use them
04:27<@peter1138>you could for instance declare one type as a stacked tile
04:27<@peter1138>hmm, that's quite a nice idea ;)
04:27<xahodo>That was what I was thinking of implementing.
04:27<xahodo>But err... I still need to get familiar with the code of openttd...
04:27<@peter1138>you'd have a lot of space for an index
04:27<@peter1138>or perhaps other data as well
04:29<xahodo>How about whether the stacked tiles need to be visited and where the surface is located (useful for the viewport).
04:32<xahodo>At that point the [] operator could be overloaded check for the tileclass (and act accordingly) in order to hide the exception to all the tile accessors.
04:32<xahodo>But... errr... performance impact?
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04:34<Noldo>you can overload [] for the baseclass and do the polymorfism there instead of virtual functions, if that is the problem
04:35<@peter1138>overloading [] is a distraction
04:36<xahodo>It would help with abstraction.
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04:37<@Rubidium>you'd still need some method to encode the 'z' in the tile indices
04:37<xahodo>But virtual functions should be avoided.
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04:38<xahodo>Tileindex is 32bits (of which only 22 are used at the moment), so it seems to me an additional nibble shouldn't be much of a problem. Or am I missing something?
04:40<@peter1138>why do you need an additional nibble?
04:40<@Rubidium>but then the real question is: what is 'z'?
04:40<xahodo>For the Z axis.
04:41<@peter1138>hmm, is it possible to do a bulk image upload to wikimedia?
04:41<@peter1138>errr, mediawiki
04:42<xahodo>x = length, y = width, z = height.
04:42<xahodo>correction: z = depth
04:42<@Rubidium> <- take that image as example
04:44<@Rubidium>what is the 'z' of the lonely rail tile on the left? Currently there are three (!) 'z's depending on the slope's direction
04:44<planetmaker>:-) Nice
04:45<@Rubidium>now the lonely tile on the right, would that have 2 'z's in your system?
04:45<Noldo>the top half would be a stacked tile on top of the first?
04:46<@Rubidium>and now the rail+tunnel in the top, imagine the rail continues over the tunnel. Does the tunnel have the same z as the rail? Currently one side has (the other hasn't).
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04:50<@Rubidium>the major problem here is that you need to teach the pathfinders about 'z' so they don't get the bridge, ground and tunnels interfering; thinking it can jump from a bridge to a tunnel
04:51<@Rubidium>which means you need to figure out how to handle going up and down a slope
04:51<@Rubidium>and that probably implies way more foundation calculations
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04:53<@Rubidium>now it's fairly simply as you can't connect wrongly leveled tiles up, only place you can is with tunnels and bridges, but those are wormholes that don't allow traffic to enter from behind which simply put fixes the whole dilemma
04:56<@Rubidium>although I've always liked the idea of building stuff on multiple levels, just not enough to actually code it :)
04:57<@peter1138>that's why i say overloading [] is pointless. loads of other stuff needs to explicitly know z, etc..
04:57<@peter1138>it's not that much of a trouble though. you can base z on the vehicle's existing z, for pathfinding..?
04:58<@peter1138>not like you need to guess
05:02<blathijs>The only way to properly do this is by redesigning the model for Z. I don't think you can get away with just adding a "stacked" tiletype and add some random support here and there...
05:02<xahodo>That's true... it needs a /lot/ of work.
05:03<planetmaker>sounds like a goal for v2.0.0 :-)
05:03<xahodo>But otherwise my oversized, way too busy stations in the middle of towns going 16 directions will remain congested forever. :)
05:03<blathijs>There has been some (thorough) thought about this in the "new map array" project years back, but that never got finished
05:04<planetmaker>does the repo still exist?
05:06<blathijs>It's the "map" branch in svn, but it's been removed since some time
05:06<blathijs>it's still present in r4000 (which was a random guess of mine)
05:07<blathijs>Also, if your map storage is more flexible to store multiple levels of stuff and basically everything can go above everything, you'll also have to thoroughly rethink your UI for this, and explicitely disallow probably half of the combinations that become possible...
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05:09<planetmaker>visibility might become an issue. A non-trivial task
05:09<xahodo>How about filtering the layers you see?
05:09<xahodo>So the user can say he wishes to see everything one level above what he's editing, for example.
05:10<xahodo>ctrl-mousewheel up/down could be used to switch between the layer you are editing.
05:11<xahodo>However, simply draging a bridge or a tunnel could give you the behavior as it is now - maybe with some added flexibility?
05:11<planetmaker>xahodo, that'd break the concept to see the surface as now
05:11<planetmaker>which is usually a quite convenient thing :-)
05:11<@peter1138>planetmaker, how does opengfx feel about drawing rotations? ;)
05:11<@peter1138>(for everything)
05:12<planetmaker>peter1138, personally I would not see a big problem in it.
05:12<blathijs>xahodo: Yeah, filtering like that has been discussed in the context of the new array as well :-)
05:12<planetmaker>It needs lots of sprites, but the community has quite a few sprite-creation machines ;-)
05:12<planetmaker>I'm optimistic that such project could see realisation in a reasonable time
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05:13<planetmaker>Briges e.g. don't need that (if we talk about 90° only)
05:13<blathijs>Rotations are a nice window for easter eggs :-)
05:13<@peter1138>planetmaker, full rotation :)
05:13<planetmaker>that's a completely new concept...
05:14<planetmaker>45° might also even be possible. But that's severly more work than 90°
05:14<planetmaker>of one would either go to
05:15<planetmaker>a) 3D models with textures (the blender guys will love it)
05:15<planetmaker>b) apply a computationally heavy stereo optics algorithm to 90° sprites
05:16<planetmaker>similar to what google does with its 3D maps
05:19<xahodo>errr... is rotation actually needed for this?
05:20<planetmaker>yes and no.
05:21<planetmaker>you need to make sure that everything built can be seen somehow :-)
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05:23<@peter1138>planetmaker, eh, i meant 0/90/180/270
05:23<@peter1138>so you can rotate industries etc with no issues
05:23<xahodo>Combining rotation and filtering of what is actually seen could be even more helpful.
05:23<@peter1138>of course, newgrf wouldn't work
05:23<@peter1138>so let's scrap that :p
05:24<planetmaker>I assumed so. I'd give that project a year, maybe a bit more till it's completely done, but feasable
05:24<planetmaker>IF there's strong demand for it.
05:24<planetmaker>But I'd assume that Zephyris could get motivated, others, too
05:25<Noldo>if the point is to see things, why aren't industries just replaced with colored tiles
05:26<xahodo>Newgrf doesn't need to be scrapped. But there's defenately room for improvement.
05:27<@peter1138>Where's my breakfast, __ln__?
05:28<xahodo>non-native Enlgish speaker here (my woover isn't either).
05:28-!-xahodo is now known as xahodo|afk
05:28*planetmaker also wants (another) breakfast :-(
05:28<__ln__>xahodo: here as well.
05:28<__ln__>xahodo|afk: please don't use an away-nick.
05:29<__ln__>peter1138: will be served printed in three copies asap.
05:29*Pikka wants seven breakfasts
05:30<planetmaker>peter1138, for a starter as a compatibility option one could probably assign the current (unrotated) sprite to the same tile... but that will look ugly
05:31<planetmaker>it might be required to add some switch with a similar effect like the map edges: one or the other, no possibility to switch once started with newgrf which don't support it and newgrf_developer_tools = off
05:32<@peter1138>there's also the issue of how to specify the sprites
05:32<planetmaker>nfo v8
05:32<planetmaker>additional sprite set
05:32<@peter1138>vehicles already have rotations, for example
05:33<Pikka>just make the rotation visible to grf in a variable
05:33<Pikka>that's all you'd need
05:34<@peter1138>just put everything in an ini file
05:34<@peter1138>or xml
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05:35<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19674 /trunk/src/ (base_media_base.h base_media_func.h gfxinit.cpp music.cpp): -Fix [FS#3774]: crash when the music/graphics metadata files were unreadable
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05:43<xahodo>how about yaml then?
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05:48<xahodo>...or squirrel >:)
05:48*xahodo hides
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06:07<xahodo>Well, no need to rush things. I'm still at square 1 and when I'm at square 3 (learned the pathfinder to deal with the new map array) I'll start to make some noise again.
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06:30<planetmaker>xahodo: it might be worthwhile to write the concept down somewhat :-)
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07:50<ice-flame>Iemand nl?
07:51<ice-flame>some boddy here?
07:52<Hirundo>There are no 'boddies' here
07:53<Eddi|zuHause>ln is here, but not nl...
07:53<planetmaker>I also hope here are no bodies...
07:53<@Rubidium>no, he needs Sacro... he pretends he speaks Dutch
07:54<planetmaker>transfering bodybags always requires too much of a sceremony.
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07:57<planetmaker>luckily it cannot be important, given the discrepancy between own responsivity and asked-for responsivity ;-)
07:57<ice-flame>i have a problem with my AL
07:57<ice-flame>I can't have concuration from pc players
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07:58<ice-flame>mayby some one could help me with this?
07:58<planetmaker>did you download a proper AI and set the number of competitors to something not 0?
07:58<ice-flame>well the problem is i dont find any in the online download system...
07:59<ice-flame>and yes i tried with more than 0
07:59<planetmaker>use the online content from the main menu. There are plenty
07:59<ice-flame>could you give me any name?
07:59<ice-flame>so it is easier to search for one?
07:59<planetmaker>NoCAB, AdmiralAI ChoCho
07:59<ice-flame>oke thanks
08:00<planetmaker>maybe it's ChooChoo. Dunno :-)
08:00<planetmaker>The newgrf selection is the wrong place to search for, btw.
08:01<planetmaker>actually... they can probably be downloaded from the AI configuration sub-menu, too
08:01<ice-flame>i downloaded some;)
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08:01<planetmaker>you activate them in the AI config. Best done also from the main menu
08:02<planetmaker>(but that only works for new games in that way)
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08:09<OwenS>forcing value to bool 'true' or 'false' (performance warning) <-- I hate MSVC's stupid warnings
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08:12<FauxFaux>Assuming you're using types reasonably and not interacting with horrible legacy code, it probably means you're calculating something then disgarding the result, doesn't it?
08:13<OwenS>No, it means I'm taking an int and storing it in a bool
08:13<FauxFaux>int x = numberOfSevensInFourBillionDigitisOfPi(); bool b = x; if (b) { ...
08:15<planetmaker>doesn't sound sane ;-)
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08:23<ccfreak2k>FauxFaux, funny you should mention pi:
08:32<Ammler>Rubidium: I would change the "call for translators" on the languages <1000 strings needed :-)
08:33<Ammler>those on the frontpage are worth to remove
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08:35<Ammler>but a language with 200 missing strings could be "rescued"
08:37<Ammler>oh, basically "unfinished" should be ignored....
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08:53*peter1138 wonders if there'll be anything smaller than micro-SD
08:53<@peter1138>just so i can use another adapter...
08:53<@peter1138>SD -> mini-SD -> micro-SD is boring
08:53<+glx>micro-SD is already too small
08:53<ccfreak2k>Nano SD.
08:53<ccfreak2k>But uh, good luck finding it if you drop it.
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09:04<@Rubidium>Ammler: but those 1000+ missing string languages need translators too
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09:10<planetmaker>hello Belugas
09:11<planetmaker>Rubidium, random idea: let a script decide randomly from a list of languages which need translation ;-)
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09:12<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, that would be a derivative of the script that randomly chooses a screenshot :p
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09:14<@Belugas>hello mister planetmaker :)
09:17<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, we just do that regularly ;-)
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09:27<Eddi|zuHause>isn't "Django" some italowestern?
09:38<TrueBrain>Rubidium: funny enough, my highlight wasn't triggered :p
09:38<TrueBrain>I have 2 hours for you today, so I suggest to speak fast :p
09:38<@Rubidium>fix WT3!
09:39<@Rubidium>implement stats, fix/finish bananas, fix/finish WT3.1
09:39<@Rubidium>that should fill those two hours
09:39<Eddi|zuHause>certainly won't take more than that :p
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09:40<TrueBrain>phpmyadmin, remove 'lock' from language, remove 'busy' from section, root@secure, openttd_live, translation/scripts/ trunk Czech, wait ....
09:40<TrueBrain>just for your reference :p
09:41<TrueBrain>there, done :)
09:41<@Rubidium>doesn't fix underlying issue :)
09:41<TrueBrain>not a bit
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10:09<Eddi|zuHause> sounds somewhat wrong :p
10:09<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19675 /extra/website/ (12 files in 4 dirs): [Website] -Add: a list of CVE records
10:11<Mazur>Eddi|zuHause: I don;t know, perhaps they have a whole department for tax-dodging purposes.
10:11<Eddi|zuHause>ah, you mean like a subbranch of cnbc :p
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10:42<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19676 /extra/website/ (3 files in 3 dirs): [Website] -Fix: 404s and the header didn't always work as it should
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11:44<OwenS>OK, whos idea was the adding then removing DEF_CMD? grr
11:44-!-r0b0tb0y [] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out]
11:44<OwenS>(Or am I looking at this the wrong way?)
11:45<OwenS>Repo seems out of date...
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11:48<OwenS>OK thats better
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>you are speaking in riddles
11:48<OwenS>My local repository had gotten out of sync with my master repository unbeknownst to me
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>how dare it
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11:51<OwenS>Ooh, new signal cycle handing... how annoying :P
11:52<OwenS>(With progsigs it defies all handling except "Table!")
11:55<OwenS>Oh, just moving from GB to Extract :)
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12:19<Guest525>Does anyone know what has changed in settings.cpp since 0.7.5?
12:20<OwenS>Guest525: probably lots
12:20<OwenS>But, yes, a good diff tool will know for sure
12:23<@Rubidium>some 700-1000 lines?
12:23<planetmaker>Rubidium: only?
12:23<@Rubidium>of some 2000
12:23<planetmaker>oh. in one file :-)
12:25<@Rubidium>oh, you though 0.7.5->1.0.0 was 700-1000 lines?
12:26<@Rubidium>the settings diff as almost as big as settings.cpp itself, it's only about 5-10% smaller
12:26<Guest525>There were lots of lines that I think were for loading settings data from the file
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12:27<Guest525>I'm trying to add a new variable
12:27<OwenS>Guest525: Why are you looking at the 0.7.5 code?
12:28<@Rubidium>planetmaker: 0.7.5-1.0.0 diff is only 558155 lines (193113 lines removed, 237376 lines added)
12:28<Guest525>I made a change to the 0.7.5 code, and I would like to apply the change to the 1.0.0 code
12:28<@Rubidium>oh, did that table move to src/table/settings.h that recently?
12:28<planetmaker>Guest525: easier to rewrite it.
12:28<OwenS>Guest525: tip: Don't modify stable versions
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12:31<Guest525>Ah, thanks Rubidium
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13:32<atikabubu>Is this channel crowded or what? :P
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13:33<planetmaker>it's empty. No one here. Nothing to see or hear
13:33<TrueBrain>expect some httpd failures on for the next 30 minutes or so
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13:34<atikabubu>Nice bit of "nothing" ;)
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13:35<atikabubu>I was bored to hell someday and made an icon from the files in the /media folder...
13:36*planetmaker hasn't looked at the media folder for... eons.
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13:38<planetmaker>hm... what CFLAG do I need in order to make ccache a default?
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13:39<fonsinchen>you can configure with --with-ccache
13:39<fonsinchen>(not --enable-ccache)
13:39<planetmaker>Rubidium: that's for configure. It works also in my globa CFLAGS?
13:39<SmatZ>CFLAGS won't affect it
13:40<SmatZ>maybe CC=ccache will do
13:40<fonsinchen>ccache is a frontend to g++, g++ doesn't know about it
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13:40<planetmaker>well, I usually forget about it when I run ./configure. So I'd like a way to make it a default ;-)
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13:42<atikabubu>here's that icon
13:42<atikabubu>just simple work with a stapler and tape :D
13:44<planetmaker>can you post it such that I don't have to download something but can view it in the browser?
13:44<atikabubu>do browsers support *.ico files?
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19677 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files):
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: portuguese - 6 changes by JayCity
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: romanian - 1 changes by tonny
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: serbian - 2 changes by etran
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: slovenian - 9 changes by Necrolyte
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
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13:48<Lakie>Is down?
13:48<atikabubu>not for me it isn't...
13:49<Lakie>works now. odd
13:49*Lakie puts it down to a small dns error
13:50<TrueBrain>[19:33] <TrueBrain> expect some httpd failures on for the next 30 minutes or so
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13:53<amalloy>i can't find 2cc trains on bananas...what name do i have to look for to download it?
13:55<atikabubu>2cc trainset?
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13:56<amalloy>the only 2cc thing i see is the chimaera addon
13:57<@Rubidium>might you be using, say 0.7.5?
13:57<amalloy>of...ttd? no, 1.0.0
13:58<amalloy>i already have 2cc myself; downloaded it by luck. but i'm trying to get a friend to install it, and neither of us can find it
13:58<Turgid>I have a problem with some trains ignoring their service interval, they just keep going until I manually tell them to service. I've had this problem since 0.7.5 so it might be something I'm doing...any ideas?
13:59<@Rubidium>amalloy: looks like 2cc trainset "needs" a nightly
13:59<planetmaker>there's the small chance that with the upload o the newest testing version of 2cctrainset the requirements also for the "stable" version of 2cctrainset were increased to >1.0.0
13:59<planetmaker>if that's the case, that's bad
13:59<planetmaker>the 2nd newest should be available for stable
13:59<atikabubu>yah, i have tha almost lates nightly and have it in bananas
13:59<planetmaker>only the newest for nightlies
14:00<@Rubidium>planetmaker: that's a long standing bug of bananas
14:00<atikabubu><bloody T button :F>
14:00<planetmaker>Rubidium: ? You mean that different versions of OpenTTD for different versions of NewGRFs don't work?
14:01*planetmaker logs into bananas
14:01<@Rubidium>yes-ish; the backend should support it (IIRC), but the webinterface disables the previous version
14:01<planetmaker>ah. That's bad
14:01<+glx>old version can be retrieved when loading savegames
14:01<+glx>but not directly
14:02<planetmaker>glx: yes. But 2cctrainset would like to supply stable version for stable openttd versions and nightly version to nightly openttd versions
14:02<planetmaker>at least if DJN listened to me ;-)
14:02<+glx>only latest version is available
14:02<+glx>that's the "bug"
14:03<planetmaker>Rubidium: could you then lower the requirement for 2cctrainset, please?
14:03<+glx>not if latest 2cc is not compatible with stable
14:03<planetmaker>better nightly than none
14:04<planetmaker>it is
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14:05<planetmaker>the idea was just to use nightly players as test players and keep the stable for the others
14:05<@Rubidium>I've manually "published" the 1.0.1 version again; now you'll see two in trunk
14:05<planetmaker>Thanks, Rubidium :-)
14:05<Socket_7>Is there a cargodist patch against 1.0.0 for Ubuntu?
14:05<@Rubidium>which is kinda a bug in the content server I think
14:05<planetmaker>even better :-)
14:05<planetmaker>(not the bug, but two versions)
14:05<@Rubidium>Socket_7: why care about 1.0.0? It's not compatible at all with 1.0.0
14:06<Socket_7>Rubidium: Oh, only because I just installed 1.0.0 under Lucid 10.04
14:06<planetmaker>Socket_7: yes, it's also no add-on
14:06<planetmaker>it's a completely separate thing
14:07<planetmaker>and you can easily install two versions in parallel
14:07<Socket_7>oh, sorry, I just got hooked on openttd this past weekend, so not very familiar
14:07<andythenorth>hi hi
14:07<planetmaker>hi And
14:08<Socket_7>Is there a PPA for the cargodist?
14:08<planetmaker>tab completion fail -.-
14:08<@Rubidium>Socket_7: no
14:09<planetmaker>what's a PPA?
14:09<Turgid>So, any idea why some trains ignore their maintenance interval?
14:09<@Rubidium>some sort of custom user ubuntu packages
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14:09<planetmaker>oh, another
14:09<Socket_7>planetmaker: It's a Ubuntu repository for package installs
14:09<@Rubidium>Turgid: breakdowns disabled and "no service if breakdowns" enabled?
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14:11<Turgid>Turgid, no breakdowns are definitely enabled, and that option is turned off anyway. I can tell because eventually these trains get down to 0% reliability and breakdown every few squares. :p
14:11<@Rubidium>path signals and long signal distances or so?
14:12<@Rubidium>the vehicles will only check every now and then whether they need to service
14:12<Socket_7>Ah, very cool, thanks Ammler
14:12<@Rubidium>at that moment it tries to find a depot within 20 tiles worth of pathfinder penalties (corners etc have a cost of like 3 tiles)
14:13<@Rubidium>and if a path past a depot is already reserved it won't deviate from that anymore
14:13<Turgid>Rubidium, well the longest distance between path signals is 8 tiles or so, I suppose I could try lessening that.
14:13<Turgid>Ah, I'll try making more convenient depots then. Thanks.
14:14<@Rubidium>path signals are not needed on straight pieces of track
14:14<OwenS>I should work on my planned ship pathfinder sometime soon... Sometime I'm less busy
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14:15<Turgid>Huh, that seemed to fix it. That makes my game a lot more enjoyable. :)
14:18<OwenS>(Basic idea: build a Delaunay Triangulation of all stations & buoys, precalculate and cache routes between vertices (<- I'm not sure how to handle invalidate these yet), then use either Dijkstras Algorithm to pick the route along the graph
14:18<atikabubu>English please? :F
14:18<Turgid>Rubidium, should I use regular signals instead?
14:19<OwenS>atikabubu: look up on Wikipedia :p
14:19<@Rubidium>Turgid: regular signals work usually better, except when in junctions
14:20<SpComb>Turgid: turning off breakdowns makes the game much more enjoyable
14:20<fonsinchen>You'll still want to service them now and then in order to make autoreplace work
14:20<Turgid>SpComb, eh, I like the realism and the challenge.
14:20<OwenS>Turgid: in real life, trains do not break down every day
14:20<SpComb>the breakdowns in TTD are realistic? :)
14:20<fonsinchen>strange sense of realism
14:21<Turgid>Point taken.
14:21<Turgid>Then again they don't run for months without getting checked up on.
14:22<atikabubu>OwenS: Now i know why i chose philology :E
14:29<andythenorth>OwenS: if you could also just make 'brown water' class craft hug the coast, and 'blue water' vessels take the straight line, that would also be great ;)
14:30<OwenS>andythenorth: thats somewhat... outside the remit of a pathfinder
14:30<andythenorth>oh well
14:30<andythenorth>I'll just keep dibbling the speeds for game balance then
14:30<OwenS>I would need a "brown water" classification first :p
14:31<OwenS>And then a way of saying if a tile is brown water :p
14:32<andythenorth>it could be defined (in a proxy way) by distance from coast / size of water body
14:32<OwenS>andythenorth: I know that. What I mean is I need a way of knowing a ship is brown water, and also for tiles to be classified as such
14:34<Lakie>I am right in thinking most compatiblity with platforms is mostly down to wrapers or is it more complex than that (for OpenTTD).
14:35<andythenorth>well TTDP respects the canal speed / ocean speed prop. Maybe we could hack on that
14:35<andythenorth>hacks are always a lovely way to incur technical debt :P
14:37<@Rubidium>Lakie: platforms as in Linux, Windows and such?
14:37<@Rubidium>if so, take a look in src/os/
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14:38<@Rubidium>which is where most gets handled, besides some font stuff in fontcache.cpp, threads, video, music, sound in those directories
14:39<@Rubidium>but then, video, music and sound drivers are sometimes generic for all platforms (SDL) and sometimes very platform specific
14:39*andythenorth hmmms
14:39<Lakie>Hmmm, ok
14:39<Lakie>So generally the core game is the same with the audio/video/input being handled platform dependantly?
14:41<@Rubidium>yes, totally abstracted away
14:42<@Rubidium>what are you planning?
14:43<Lakie>Not planning anything, putting it into a report about multiplatform apps and services.
14:43*Lakie thinks it fits in there nicely but could be mistaken.
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14:45<andythenorth>ships are fun
14:46<andythenorth>it's nice that they are easy to route (although bouys are annoying)
14:46<andythenorth>but maybe they are too easy
14:46<andythenorth>should they be more evil?
14:46<@Rubidium>Lakie: fun fact; OpenTTD runs on DOS provided the videocard is supported by Allegro (which includes dosbox)
14:47<Lakie>Thtas pretty cool
14:47<OwenS>andythenorth: the problem with ships is the bloody goto buoy orders
14:48*andythenorth thinks about: rocks, whirlpools, reefs, and ships that get scared about deep water
14:48<OwenS>andythenorth: one of the design ideas of SPF is that ships automatically follow buoys :)
14:51<andythenorth>OwenS: if the orders at least reverse-filled the bouys that would be handy. But that's lipstick on a pig :)
14:51<andythenorth>is there space in the map array for 'evil water tiles'?
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14:53<planetmaker>more interesting might be coast and high seas :-)
14:53<planetmaker>(if that isn't even implemented...)
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14:55<Phurl>i would like to know if it would be possible to add in an import of openstreetmap for simulation of a real ciry
14:56<frosch123>you might have a chance with manhattan
14:56*andythenorth wonders what other evil sea features might be fun?
14:56<andythenorth>The Kracken :P
14:56<planetmaker>andythenorth: "bermuda triangle"
14:56<planetmaker>50% chance that ship sinks
14:57<frosch123>how about privateers entering opponents ships?
14:57<andythenorth>I guess we're just reinventing disasters here though
14:57<planetmaker>hostile take-over
14:57<andythenorth>disasters are the first thing I turn off :P
14:57<planetmaker>and then you can ask for money in order to return the ship
14:57<planetmaker>it's realistic even!
14:59<andythenorth>I could add 'naval patrol' to FISH :P
14:59<andythenorth>I did think rocks and reefs might actually add both gameplay and eye candy
14:59<planetmaker>capacity: 5 people
14:59<planetmaker>andythenorth: *that* might be interesting :-)
15:00<planetmaker>does water have random numbers? Then different representation of those are easily possible
15:00<andythenorth>to make it worthwhile, ships wouldn't be able to route over those tiles
15:00<andythenorth>much like they can't route through a water-based industry
15:01*andythenorth thinks up a horrible abuse of an industry newgrf to implement 'rocks' as a concept
15:01<planetmaker>bulldozing: 100*normal water bulldoze cost
15:01<planetmaker>teehehe @ andythenorth
15:01<frosch123>oh, and streetcarai has to learn to use gondolas
15:01<andythenorth>planetmaker: bulldozing cost sounds about right
15:01<andythenorth>is this a NewObjects type thing, or would it be better in core game?
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15:03<planetmaker>difficult, I think
15:04<planetmaker>if "new objects" can be restricted to not be build or so... yes
15:04<planetmaker>though it'd be nice to have the map generator have access to those kind of things
15:04<planetmaker>same would actually also be true with road signs and so on.
15:05<planetmaker>like light houses and transmitters
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15:09<andythenorth>I think the map generator would need access to things like those
15:10<andythenorth>not so much the road signs etc - but the 'irritatingly immovable or expensive to remove objects'
15:10<DanMacK>Hey Andy
15:11<andythenorth>hi DanMacK
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15:16<planetmaker>andythenorth: true, that's more important to know. But having sign-posted roads by default would also certainly add to the flair of the game, if done so by default
15:16<planetmaker>But then more important: Rivers!
15:17<andythenorth>and dams!
15:17<andythenorth>but mostly, Rivers!
15:17<planetmaker>at best: lively rivers :-)
15:18<andythenorth>a dam is actually pretty easy
15:18<planetmaker>yes. Just rise the corner of the tile ;-)
15:19*andythenorth face palm at BROS set :P
15:20<@peter1138>WHEN WILL I WILL I BE FAMOUS
15:20<Socket_7>Has anyone played the Pacific NW:Canada/USA Scenario? Even though I have downloaded the ECS Wood vector GRF, I am still getting a "Missing GRF file(s) have been disabled" error when I start it.
15:22<TrueBrain>We removed lighttpd from the chain of httpds when visiting Please let me know any issues that might arrised from this change
15:22<@peter1138>thought you did that long ago :p
15:22<TrueBrain>clearly not
15:23<@peter1138>and here's me, using lighttpd with no issues ;)
15:23<@peter1138>slightly ligher load
15:23<TrueBrain>then again, you hand't to survive a slashdot :p
15:23<planetmaker> <-- @ andythenorth : damns ;-)
15:23<TrueBrain>*you didn't have
15:24<andythenorth>planetmaker: and lower land to create the lake?
15:25<planetmaker>andythenorth: automatic filling with water wouldn't be too nice
15:25<@Rubidium>peter1138: but then you're not having mod-dav-svn behind lighty
15:25<planetmaker>andythenorth: not so much abuse but it'd be incompatible with current maps
15:26<planetmaker>where flooding only starts from sea. That should IMHO better be kept
15:26<planetmaker>or savegames would break horribly
15:26<@peter1138>hmm, merely 3.7mbps 95th%ile
15:26<planetmaker>also tunnels at normal land level would get "interesting"
15:26<@peter1138>Rubidium, i have lighttpd -> apache -> dav_svn, so...
15:27<TrueBrain>we now have nginx -> apache -> dav_svn
15:27<TrueBrain>or so I hope :p
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15:27<Noldo>i never undertood why rivers are on tiles and not on the edges of tiles
15:27<@Rubidium>peter1138: oh, may I do a checkout of your repository?
15:28<TrueBrain>Rubidium: dont make his lighttpd crash :(
15:28<@Rubidium>(I really hope the whole repository is smaller than the amount of memory you've got, otherwise it's going to OOM)
15:28<@peter1138>yeah, it's 3.6MB :p
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15:29<@Rubidium>oh, then it'll leak not that much to be noticable :(
15:29<@peter1138>and i have 4GB ram
15:29<TrueBrain>can we commit :p
15:29<@peter1138>bah, lighttpd's only 2.9MB resident
15:29<@peter1138>7MB virtual
15:29<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: yeah, then he'll have a lot of tags quickly
15:29<@peter1138>don't think i need to worry :)
15:29<TrueBrain>nginx was 6 MiB even at 51 hits per second :p
15:30<@peter1138>it's readonly, hehe
15:30<@peter1138>i use ssh for committing
15:30<TrueBrain>then again, lighttpd also survived such hammering
15:30<TrueBrain>just don't proxy via lighttpd :)
15:30<@Rubidium>it just doesn't survive the one noob trying svn co
15:30<@peter1138>depends what it is, but yes
15:31<@peter1138>certainly can't proxy http streaming ;)
15:31<@peter1138>but, i only had lighttpd because i didn't need apache
15:31<@peter1138>then i put apache on later
15:31<@peter1138>so i might just dump lighttpd
15:32<SpComb>lighttpd's proxying buffers in memory :(
15:32*peter1138 wonders if kino's DV code is... complicated
15:32<SpComb>plus, it's also dead
15:33<@peter1138>gstreamer's dv1394src doesn't appear to work very well :s
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15:40<TrueBrain>switched to nginx only too
15:40<TrueBrain>as that takes care of 50% of our http hits, it should ease up lighttpd a bit :p
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15:47<andythenorth>we use Varnish (with ESI) and HA Proxy on high traffic sites. Not sure if it's applicable here though
15:48<TrueBrain>I am currently very happy with the performance our setup gives
15:48<andythenorth>seems...snappy :)
15:48<TrueBrain>the only issue we had was that django was dropped by the OOM .. something that wont' happen again :)
15:49<TrueBrain>we already have twice the amount of hits then the busiest month we had before, and everything still runs :p
15:50<TrueBrain>euh, I read that wrong: we are already passed the former #1 month :p
15:51<TrueBrain>in a year we have 5M 'visitors' and 225M page hits :p
15:51<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19678 /trunk/src/network/ (core/tcp_game.h network_server.cpp): -Fix (r19607): client status was shown incorrect in the console
15:51<TrueBrain>5TB of data over our main server in the last 12 months :) Hehe :)
15:52<@Rubidium>~700GiB so far this month :)
15:52<TrueBrain>we grown from 350k 'visitors' a month to 500k
15:52<TrueBrain>(in 1 year)
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15:53<TrueBrain>but okay :) Please let me know if there are any httpd issues :)
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15:53<SmatZ>TrueBrain:;a=shortlog;pg=0 :(
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15:53<TrueBrain>SmatZ: what about it?
15:53<SmatZ>TrueBrain: it looks dead
15:54<TrueBrain>your name is not enough on that page?
15:54<TrueBrain>looks alive here
15:54<TrueBrain>even Rubidium's commit is there
15:55<SmatZ>and now it works!
15:55<TrueBrain>I didn't touch it!
15:55<TrueBrain>damn, wiki is slow
15:55<SmatZ>sorry for distracting you, Mr. Stout
15:55<TrueBrain>not a single problem :)
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16:17<KenjiE20> <-- another good lightning shot
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16:18<@Rubidium>ashes to ashes
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16:22*Rubidium just hopes it doesn't make such a mess as Laki did
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16:32<Peping>o hai :)
16:35<Peping>the one who helps me to finish this design document, by thinking about various battle units to be used in the game gets the exclusive access to the game Whizz! from Zeyo Game with whom I happen to work. Also you'll get hellalot of credits on the website once the project is done..
16:36<Peping>* Zeyo Games
16:37<SmatZ>is that some spam?
16:38<Peping>battle in OpenTTD :)
16:38<Peping>no it's not a spam..
16:39<frosch123>does it contain privateers?
16:39<Peping>It's just a way how to get people involved in a project I want to finish
16:39<SmatZ>openttd is a peaceful game
16:39<Peping>I don't think so.. It's supposed to be more like warfare from this era
16:40<Peping>SmatZ: which sometimes leads it up to the border of boringness..
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16:40<__ln__>SmatZ: it's not, every passenger dies in every accident
16:41<@Belugas>accident is not war
16:41<KenjiE20>if you think playing TTD is boring, you're playing the wrong game
16:41<Peping>who's against what I'm trying to make, raise your hand using an emote (/me is against). if there's more than 6 of you, I'll stop.
16:41<__ln__>Belugas: true, not exactly, but still -- plenty of people die.
16:41<@Rubidium>"Zeyo game" doesn't even exist according to Google
16:42<Peping>Rubidium: it's a recently founded(this year) studio..
16:42<SmatZ>Peping: you can create any software base on OpenTTD, as long as you meet licence requirements
16:43<Peping>I know, but just in case anybody thinks it's a bad idea to have a warfare server of OpenTTD I give you the opportunity to stop me from doing what you think is bad :)
16:43<@Belugas>Peping, sorry, got aquick read to your document. it is far from openttd's type of game. I could never sign on such a project
16:44<@Belugas>so... obviously, VERY VERY VERY BAD project
16:44<@Rubidium>the objectives page says it is
16:44<@Belugas>but heyu... it's jut MY opinion
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16:46<Peping>Rubidium: to give you a proof that we (Zeyo Games) really exist, this is our great project we're working on..
16:46<Peping>i guess it was not nessesary.. :D
16:47<frosch123>what is the releation of rpg to a 6-sided dice?
16:47<frosch123>i would understand 12, 20, 10, 100, ... but 6?
16:48<Peping>Ask our team leder.. :D
16:48<Terkhen>they are easier to find (most table games use them d6)
16:48*Belugas remembers a 4 sided dice...
16:48<Peping>*me too
16:48*Peping too
16:48<@Belugas>dunjeon and dragons... so many souvenirs...
16:49*fjb has seen a 100 sided dice.
16:49<Peping>really? :)
16:49<frosch123>fjb: one or two dice?
16:49<Peping>that mus've been huge
16:49<fjb>Not that big. But not that easy to read.
16:50<frosch123>though i do not understand how you can tell the number from it
16:50<Terkhen>I saw a 100 sided dice that came along with a piece of cloth to avoid damaging the table with it
16:51<fjb>frosch123: You read the number on top.
16:52<Peping>k guys.. Seems like I'm not going to start a warfare in openttd then.. I'll have a talk about it in OpenTTD with some players though.. I'm leaving for bed. I'm having a long journey tomorrow
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16:55*Belugas cannot understand this addiction with warfare
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16:56<@Belugas>do i want to put train stations in ... say... Spider Solitaire?
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17:01<Eddi|zuHause>can't have enough train stations in any game!
17:01<Terkhen>I can't understand selecting something TTD-like as a engine for a wargame... couldn't be less suited to it
17:02<Terkhen>I want to destroy stuff... let's use as starting point a game that is about building stuff!
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>they put warfare into sim city, it can't be that difficult :p
17:02<Terkhen>really? I don't remember that :/
17:02<Terkhen>in which one?
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>in sim city 4 you can make "missions"
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>like driving a police car to get car thieves
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>or drive the thief car and escape from the police
17:03<Terkhen>can you get to 5-6 stars too?
17:03*andythenorth has some nice hovercraft renders to paint pixels on
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>and you can also play a military jet, military helicopter etc.
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>even a UFO ;)
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17:04*Terkhen never played any sim after SimCity 2000
17:04*andythenorth has former military hovercraft
17:04<andythenorth>now carrying freight
17:04<fjb>A christian friend of mine misses a war option in TTD too. He tends do destroy other players work in any game when he thinks that he will not win.
17:04<andythenorth>seeing as fast ships are much in demand :P
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17:05<Eddi|zuHause>with the helicopter you have missions like "destroy the evil scientist's laboratory"
17:05<@Rubidium>fjb: that's quite expectable, after all Christians are historically one of the most war-liking religons
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>of course you can't aim properly, so you destroy a whole block in the process
17:05<Terkhen>andythenorth: cool, what speed / capacity will they have?
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>i know a railroad game with war elements: transarctica!
17:06<andythenorth>capacity is 30t
17:06<@Belugas>speaking of war... Avatar is coming to the stooooooooooooooores!
17:07<andythenorth>speed, I'm not sure.
17:07<@Rubidium>pocahontas meets the smurfs?
17:07<Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: I loved that game, I should try to play it again now that I my english is better
17:07<andythenorth>RL top speed is about 60 mph, 'cruising speed' is about 46mph
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>Belugas: so when do you get your 3D home-cinema? ;)
17:07<@Belugas>booooo hoooooo
17:08<@Belugas>not for a fucking while...
17:08<@Belugas>and not on blue ray either
17:08<@Belugas>but who care!
17:08<@Belugas>it's awesome already as it is!
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: rather use the cruising speed, not the theoretical max speed
17:08<@Belugas><going to be>
17:08<Terkhen>andythenorth: I'm missing something like that to deliver ES to oil platforms :)
17:09<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I am wondering about either (a) slower when loaded, faster when unloaded (realistic)
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>Belugas: i got headache from the 3D cinema...
17:09<andythenorth>or (b) refit for 'overload' - but slower (also realistic)
17:10<andythenorth>I can implement both easily. But is it good gameplay :P
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: kinda like regearing for speed vs. power?
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>i don't use ships very often...
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>both seem to make some sense...
17:11<andythenorth>I've also got a render for this one....60t or 75t overload:
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17:11<Terkhen>I prefer (b), you can't easily decide to not overload with (a)
17:12<andythenorth>Terkhen: noted :)
17:12<andythenorth>Also I've got a render for this one
17:12<andythenorth>so lots of painting to do :P
17:13<+tokai> <- something for you railway fans :)
17:14<@Belugas>too bad, Eddi|zuHause. not my case.
17:14<@Belugas>and now.. it's time to... HEAD HOME!!!
17:14<@Belugas>see you all
17:14<@Belugas>and don't play war...
17:14<@Belugas>make love if you wish/can
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>play love?
17:16<planetmaker>enjoy, Belugas :-)
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>tokai: that image is huuuuge...
17:19<andythenorth>Terkhen: I'm going to include a rig supply vessel in FISH...they are pretty fast by the standards of freight ships, maybe 40 knot
17:21<Terkhen>nice :)
17:22<+tokai>Eddi|zuHause: isn't that a good thing? So you can see all details in full glory. :)
17:22<Terkhen>that'd be perfect
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17:26<Eddi|zuHause>tokai: typical screenshot, huge junctions but hardly any trains :p
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17:34<andythenorth>Terkhen: I've also just found specs (but no pictures) for a 100 knot rig supply hydrofoil
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17:38<Eddi|zuHause>what's a foil?
17:40<Terkhen> <-- they seem kind of futuristic
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17:40<Yakuzing>yea but they exist in some forms :p
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18:13<Terkhen>good night
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18:39<Elmzran>I have a question, about Servers.
18:39<Elmzran>Anyone here willing to help?
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18:41<Turgid>Go ahead and ask.
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18:42<Turgid>I probably can't help but someone may once they see your question!
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>from the category "totally looks alike":
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---Logclosed Tue Apr 20 00:00:00 2010