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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-04-20

---Logopened Tue Apr 20 00:00:00 2010
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01:42<Harlequin>Morning guys
01:44<Harlequin>Is anyone here comfortable with using Arch Linux? I've problem with OpenMSX...
01:46<planetmaker>[07:44] <Turgid> [00:42:18] I probably can't help but someone may once they see your question!
01:46<planetmaker>That always applies. Meta questions suck
01:46<Harlequin>Well sounds works.. but music? nah
01:47<Harlequin>brb in about hour and half :)
01:49-!-mode/#openttd [+o Yexo] by DorpsGek
01:49-!-Yexo changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.0.0, 1.0.1-RC1 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | Full English Breakfast only | Don't ask to ask, just ask
01:50-!-mode/#openttd [-o Yexo] by DorpsGek
01:50<planetmaker>moin Yexo :-)
01:50<Yexo>morning :)
01:53<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19679 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp newgrf.h newgrf_sound.cpp): -Fix: [NewGRF] make sure newgrfs can't overwrite sound effect properties from other newgrfs
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02:27<Terkhen>good morning
02:28<Yexo>morning Terkhen
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03:21<Harlequin>Well I'd like to ask again because it's doing my head in... I've problems with OpenMSX running OTTD 1.0.0@Arch Linux. OpenSFX and OpenGFX works fine. When I open "Jazz jukebox" and press play, songs will start to "switch" like they were 0:00 long
03:24<@peter1138>does timidity run, outside of ottd?
03:29<Harlequin>2peter1138: seems not
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03:30<Mazur>_Are_ the song files 0:00 long?
03:31<Harlequin>I've lacked timidity altogether
03:31<planetmaker>they aren't 0:00 long for OpenMSX. And if they are, the md5sums would mismatch
03:31<Mazur>And you can play them with Timidity, for instance, outside the game?
03:32<Harlequin>hold on just installed it
03:32<Mazur>Or another midi player?
03:32<plantain>I have the same problem as Harlequin
03:32<Harlequin>hold on gotta localize where Pacman downloaded it
03:33<plantain>timidity++ 2.13.2-r12
03:33<plantain>with gentoo
03:33<Mazur>pm: They might have not been installed properly, files allocated, but not filled?
03:33<@peter1138>weird terms :p
03:33<plantain>I certainly have the files there, I can go in and play them with timidity
03:34<Harlequin>well where in the blue heck Pacman put those god**** OpenMSX files
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03:34<Mazur>And you access therm with the same userid as you play ottd?
03:34<plantain>and openttd finds both the openmsx files and my original ttd files
03:34<Yexo>/usr/share/games/openttd ?
03:35<Harlequin>except for games folder
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03:36<Harlequin>I'm wondering
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03:36<Harlequin>no_music.obm orig_win.obm
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03:37<planetmaker><Mazur> pm: They might have not been installed properly, files allocated, but not filled? <-- exactly then md5sums don't match
03:38<Harlequin>i wonder now where the music is
03:38<plantain>I have mine in /usr/share/games/openttd/gm/openmsx-0.2.1
03:38<Mazur>Either /usr/share/openttd/gm or ~/.openttd/gm/
03:38<Harlequin>ain't there
03:39<Harlequin>Content downloader says it's downloaded
03:39<Harlequin>but ain't
03:39<plantain>if you download it with the content downloader it goes to ~/.openttd/
03:39<planetmaker>it's in ~/.openttd/content_download/gm
03:39<Mazur>Or that one.
03:40<planetmaker>reading the readme is quite enlightening.
03:40<Mazur>Reading instruction manuals is for girls.
03:41<Mazur>find / -name -print
03:41<Mazur>That should find them.
03:41<planetmaker>not OpenMSX
03:41<Yexo>openmfx is probably downloaded as a tar
03:41<Harlequin>found it
03:42<Mazur>Realised what the problem is?
03:43<Harlequin>nah.. closed task manager
03:43<Harlequin>aandddddd..... ain't working
03:48<Harlequin>so timidity output ain't nice
03:49<Harlequin>No instrument mapped to tone bank 0, program 1 - this instrument will not be heard
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03:55<Sacro>Harlequin: done the config for timidity?
03:56<Harlequin>what is to be configured?
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03:56<Sacro>i install timidity-freepats from AUR and then copy the timidity-freepats.cfg to timidity.cfg
03:56<Harlequin>I'm on arch wiki looking for some soundfonts and freepats
03:56<Sacro>but then if you can run it direct...
03:56<Sacro>freepats is in AUR
03:57<Sacro>or was...
03:57<Sacro>oh, it's in community now, timidity-freepats
03:57<Harlequin>I'm downloading them atm
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03:59<Harlequin>sorry had problem with connection
04:02<Harlequin>timidity plays everything just fine
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04:03<Harlequin>ok problem was in missing pats
04:10<@peter1138>you'd've thought that someone else might've taken up the ball on that, since 2006...
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04:11<Harlequin>you know.. it's because humans are quite lazy lot
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04:16<@peter1138>it's the fabled "somebody else" :)
04:17<Harlequin>to hell with "somebody else" people need stop bein lazy and try themselves
04:19<@peter1138>go on then :)
04:20<Harlequin>We're now entering hell, please keep your hands and elbows inside the train
04:20<@Rubidium>sorry, but it's a boat
04:20<Harlequin>depends on hell you enter
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04:22<Harlequin>remembers me of one joke
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05:58<amalloy1>is it all right if i ask.....why my steel mill, playing PBI, should have a stockpile of 600 each coal/iron, and only produce 96 steel/month? i'm not transporting any of it yet, but the stockpile is getting too full to deliver
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07:03<DanMacK>Hello all
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07:06<planetmaker>Hello DanMacK :-)
07:09<planetmaker> <-- I got some turbo train with livery override for you :-)
07:13<DanMacK>Oooooh, exciting :D
07:15<planetmaker>I haven't quite checked how the mail one looks like (will do that tonight), but I *think* that is fine, too.
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07:17<amalloy1>anyone know where i can find the max production values for secondary/tertiary industries in pbi? my steel mill and factory seem to stockpile loads of materials but produce hardly any outputs
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07:18<Eddi|zuHause>amalloy1: have you tried actually carrying the secondary cargo away?
07:18<amalloy1>for the steel mill, yes. haven't got round to the factory yet
07:19<Pikka>amalloy1: from me. and yes, the production level won't go above low if there was no cargo transported away the previous month.
07:19<amalloy1>ahhh, interesting. thanks!
07:19<amalloy1>and now that i look back, i see that after a few months/years went by the steel mill started producing more
07:20<Pikka>not much point them working hard to produce stuff no-one wants, after all ;)
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: why does brick chain not work in arctic?
07:21<amalloy1>yes, i thought about that, but since they were producing *something* i assumed that mechanic wasn't implemented. it never occurred to me that they'd produce some but not lots
07:21<Pikka>because the grf tells it not to, eddi.
07:22<Pikka>amalloy: if they produced nothing, they wouldn't know when someone tried to transport stuff
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07:22<Pikka>same reason the variable output on the sawmill, say, never produces 100% of one cargo and 0 of the other.
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: i was trying to play PBI with hacked Alpine, but without brick chain it's only half the fun...
07:23<amalloy1>bah. *handwaves away necessary but undesirable implementation details*
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07:26<amalloy1>lol, pikka, it jumped from 270 goods to 1250! i guess i need more trains now
07:26<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: i was mainly asking whether there was a particular technical reason to not allow it, other than not-drawn snowy versions
07:27<Pikka>nope, not at all eddi
07:28<Pikka>remove sprite #1 and it should work just fine :P
07:28<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i can find the check, but i wouldn't know if it caused any harm to gameplay
07:30<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19680 /trunk/src/network/network_client.cpp: -Fix [FS#3775] (r19648): when joining a MP game all clients with company ID > 0 would be shown as if they were a spectator
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07:41<Eddi|zuHause>what are the pressing reasons against applying the newgrf gui patch?
07:41<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, non. It's just not up to date. As far as I understood
07:41<planetmaker>Blame me, if you like that I didn't find time in December / January to update it.
07:42<planetmaker>(I got an official request to do so :-( )
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07:44*Ammler blames planetmaker
07:45<planetmaker>I was working on OpenGFX!
07:45<Ammler>no excuse!
07:46<Ammler>well, maybe a bit :-P
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09:31<Pikka>hello Belugas
09:31<@Belugas>how's life sir?
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09:32<Pikka>6 of one and half a dozen of the other.
09:33<ccfreak2k>Is this Cheers now?
09:33<ccfreak2k>Is Pikka playing the part of Norm?
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09:33<Pikka>and if so, who's playing the rest of him?
09:33<Pikka>(ho ho, the goon show joke).
09:34<@Belugas>the one who does
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09:49<Pikka>that's one way of looking at it, Rubidium
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09:49<Eddi|zuHause>these aussies have everything turned upside down...
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09:50<Eddi|zuHause>[as in turning direction of vortexes]
09:50<@Rubidium>Pikka: it's 11:50pm there now, right?
09:50<@Rubidium>that's after noon, right?
09:51<@Rubidium>the whole "pm" part of the time already says it
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09:52<Cadde>Just you wait when the magnetic poles reverse...
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09:52<Eddi|zuHause>see... even their clocks don't have 24 hours...
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09:54<Pikka>our clocks have 8 hours
09:54<Pikka>the rest is beer o'clock
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10:04*Belugas love that country...
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>then why aren't you there yet? :p
10:06<@Belugas>i snore when i drink, my wife hates that. therefor, i try to avoid temptation
10:07<@peter1138>hmm, beer
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10:11<@Belugas>mmh... calories...
10:12<@peter1138>quite :s
10:13<@Belugas>life is a bitch, isn't it?
10:13<@Belugas>like... home made fresh bread out of the oven... with butter!
10:13<@Belugas>naaaa.... too many freaking calories etc...
10:13<@peter1138>SHT UP
10:13*peter1138 sobs
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10:15<@Belugas>yeah... me too... don't worry
10:15*Belugas takes a sip of his coffee and tries to disolve these images in music
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10:18<arneke>Hi, just in relation to a general discussion about open source projects, is there any funding / commercial interest behind OpenTTD ?
10:19<arneke>(sorry, must have entered the nick in the wrong field)
10:20<arneke>Yexo: and it has been going since 2005 ?
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10:20<Yexo>even earlier I think, not sure when it started exactly
10:20<arneke>ah right, there's a reference to 2002 and the Euro on the About page
10:20<arneke>thanks,,, that's enough ammo to refute the working hypothesis
10:21<Yexo>the 2002 euro introduction on the about page on the wiki is about the in-game year 2002
10:21<Yexo>and if I may ask, which working hypothesis?
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10:22<arneke>I should have explained more: The statement was that all successful open source projects do have funding or commercial interest behind them, that "love" is not enough
10:23<@peter1138>that statement is blatantly false
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10:24<arneke>peter1138: it's paraphrased, there were a few things about size and time running
10:24<arneke>peter1138: other examples
10:25<Yexo>I think it's probably the other way around: most (not all) successfull large open source projects will be commercially interesting and thus get funding one way or another
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10:26<@Belugas>at the root, open projects are done out of the free work of passion
10:26<@Belugas>i think
10:26<arneke>agreed, and I can attest to a feeling of bad taste when you know someone else is going to charge money for the bug you are fixing for them
10:27<ccfreak2k>Some of us don't care about that.
10:27<arneke>Belugas: that I dont agree with,,, my little toy ( was an assignment initially
10:27<ccfreak2k>That's what the BSD three-clause license is for.
10:28<Yexo>arneke: yes, "initially", and now?
10:28<arneke>Yexo: now it's hard to let go ;)
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10:28<arneke>ccfreak2k: more cred to you ;)
10:28<arneke>anyway,,, more concrete examples
10:28<arneke>like OpenTTD would be great
10:29<arneke>but it's just for a mailinglist discussion anyway
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10:29<@peter1138>why should we be doing your research? :p
10:29<arneke>peter1138: why should you be writing the game I play ;)
10:30<@peter1138>because i enjoy it
10:30<arneke>I didnt really come here to ask you to do research, I just wanted to confirm that it's not a testing ground for the game engine for another game, or anything like that
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10:31<arneke>and I appreciate the feedback I've already gotten, so thanks :)
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10:36<@Belugas>my very first interest of the game was about : "here's a game where source code is available. How does it look like?". Then is was... "how can I add more value to it, as a thank you gesture for all the good moments i had" and then... "how the hell can I add the newhouses stuff" (which i started but got stopped and finally maedhros did it)... blablabla
10:37<@Belugas>i see no commercial reason behinds that. nor forced assigment. as peter1138 said "because i enjoy it"
10:37<@Belugas>-y+ied in my case... for some reasons
10:41<@peter1138>hey Pikka, i have a patch (and newgrf) to disable railtypes ;)
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10:43<Pikka>oh noes!
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10:44<Eddi|zuHause>hooo... he-who-has-a-patch has a patch, very surprising! :p
10:44<@peter1138>also the skin at the end of my thumb and index finger is peeling off :s
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10:46<@Belugas>slap bass player injury!
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10:46<@Belugas>or... sun-burn on fingers :S
10:47<Mazur>Or ... blinding friction burns?
10:48<Mazur>They alledge it's a common malady among geeks. ;-)
10:48<@peter1138>heat related i think
10:49<@peter1138>i was sanding something down and the paper got quite hot
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10:56<Cadde>My belief is that people do this for the love of the original game. It's like "Hmm, what if i could just do this little thing in TTD" and then something small starts and gets released to the public. Then another guy adds something else and in the spirit of sharing it gets shared. So in a sense, people do things in ottd because they want stuff and once done they enjoy sharing it with others in case they would enjoy it too.
10:57<Cadde>However there are those who take pleasure in helping others get something they want too
10:57<Cadde>So don't get me wrong on that point.
10:58<Eddi|zuHause>but do not forget that the commercial success of TT(D) is what fueled the project in the first place
10:58<Cadde>For example, if someone where to ask me personally if i could compile patches XYZ into a pack i would do so without hesitation since i know how cumbersome it is to set up SVN, Environment, Working out the kinks and so on. If they enjoy it i feel good as i have given something back to all that have given to me and i have made someone happy which is by far good enough for me.
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>because of that success, there was a critical mass of people
10:59<Cadde>Eddi|zuHause: Yeah, like i said. For the love of the original game.
11:00<Cadde>I keep telling developers that among the most important features of new games today is the ability to customize it or remodel it to something else.
11:00<Cadde>That means SDK's and tools.
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>Civ IV is a great example of that ;)
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11:02*andythenorth has an SDK: svn, textwrangler, GCC and make
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11:02<Cadde>just look at Counter Strike. It really is crap but people are still playing it because there where tools made available to the community and the community knows what the community wants. No developer can ever match the sheer volume of input that a community can deliver because developers have deadlines. aftermarket projects tend to follow the "It's done when it's done" mentality and they tend to make stuff work well.
11:04<arneke>Cadde: sure, but for a commercial game studio that's not really interesting. They want you to play for two months and then buy the sequel. And with the focus on online games I suspect they will succeed, cause there's nobody to play against if you break out a 2 year old game
11:04<@Rubidium>and for OpenTTD not promising features helps too :)
11:05<arneke>WoW could be really a lot more interesting though ;)
11:05<@Rubidium>heh, we want people to play our sequels too
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11:06<Cadde>I play EvE online and the reason i am still playing is because i feel that the developers are keeping a close eye on what the community wants as a whole. They release a new expansion every 5 - 6 months free of charge.
11:06<arneke>yeah, I am not really trying to argue against that, just that I am not sure counter strike was a huge success, if measure by commercial goals
11:06<Noldo>Cadde: well, free of extra charge
11:06<arneke>Cadde: That follows the WoW model, where I do think SDKs can make sense
11:07<Cadde>arneke: CS wasn't commercial in the beginning and it isn't really commercial today either. It just sells as a separate source engine package thats all.
11:07<arneke>Cadde: fair enough, but it was value added for Half Life 2, and important for the long tail of that game
11:07<Cadde>Noldo: Yeah, ofc you pay for server access and to me, it's a pretty fair price to play with 50,000 other players on ONE cluster.
11:08<arneke>I still think a commercial metric applies, but it's not that important
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11:10<Eddi|zuHause>arneke: there are more commercial metrics than "short term income", but people tend to forget that
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11:12<arneke>Eddi|zuHause: sure, starting a legacy or getting Steam installed on x million computers is crucial too
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11:19<james_>IDENTIFY james
11:20<planetmaker>how creative your password is...
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>i really hope "james" is not your password
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11:21<Eddi|zuHause>but i tend to be a very naive person :p
11:22<james_>I'm new to IRC
11:22<planetmaker>ah, that explains bad passwords :-P
11:23<james_>I thought it was a name
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11:23<james_>I don't have a paassword
11:24-!-james_ is now known as James
11:25-!-James is now known as Guest663
11:25<Guest663>Now I need to think up a nickname
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11:36<Cadde>Nah, your nick is your name
11:36<planetmaker>Guest663, "James" is probably taken or registered.
11:36<Cadde>Nickserv is just there to make sure no-one else is using your name
11:37<Cadde>Hence Nickserv Identify <password>
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12:01<sulai>Hi there
12:03<sulai>just wanted to mention: since there are no releases on sourceForge anymore, there is no version history available for OTTD. Which is sad =(
12:04<sulai>for example, I can't get the official binaries for ottd 0.7.4 anymore.
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12:05<+glx>you can
12:06<+glx>better use
12:06<SpComb>or more accurately,
12:06<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19681 /extra/website/security/ (7 files in 2 dirs): [Website] -Change: the model to store the security information
12:06<SpComb>glx: you have to write that in manually :(
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12:16<Ammler>maybe you should also upload a "visit_our_website_for_older_versions.txt" to :-)
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12:20<Mazur>Hm, looks like SSL didn't work for me.
12:20<Mazur>Or am I looking skewed?
12:20<sulai>oh thanks for the binaries :)
12:20<sulai>would be nice if there was a link like "download old binaries" on the ottd website :)
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12:22<xahodo>Is sourceforge still being used for anything openttd at all?
12:22<xahodo>I thought the project page on SF was abandoned ages ago.
12:22<Ammler>since 0.6 aroundish
12:24<xahodo>Why hasn't it been taken down yet?
12:25<OwenS>xahodo: Ever tried to close a source forge project?
12:25<OwenS>Its not possible
12:26<Eddi|zuHause>Mazur: doesn't look like you're using SSL...
12:27<Mazur>Eddi|zuHause: Thanks, so now all I have to figure out is, what filed.
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12:34*OwenS wonders why ChillCore has gone through his patch changing all instances of if (x)\n y(); to if (x) {\n y(); \n}
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>because he misread the code style?
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>code style allows "if (x) y();" but not "if (x)\n y();"
12:36<OwenS>OK, then I'll change to that, since all those braces are just ugly
12:36<OwenS>(I don't understand why one would chose to do so though..)
12:36<Eddi|zuHause>if you have an else, you must use {}
12:37<OwenS>That fits my coding style too
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12:37<OwenS>(And yes I've heard the "You'll forget to put braces in if you expand it" line and I don't buy it)
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12:38<Noldo>you'll notice it of you forget
12:38<OwenS>I've been programming for years and never made that error...
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>dangling elses may be a mess
12:39<OwenS>Of course. I always use braces when dealing with elses (Except for in cases like "} else return false;")
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12:53<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: that case is not allowed in openttd
12:53<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: and I haven't used it
12:54<Eddi|zuHause>... just wanted to mention ;)
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13:03<Mazur>Hm, seems like xchat only talks SSL3, and the server SSL2.
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you need a network support channel instead...
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>typically those are called #help or #<your-current-network>
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13:05<Mazur>If I wanted to pursue this, yeah. I was merely musing, regarding my previous remarks.
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13:06<Yexo>* OwenS wonders why ChillCore has gone through his patch changing all instances of if (x)\n y(); to if (x) {\n y(); \n} <- I'm more wondering why he changes things like initial loan for easy difficulty setting
13:07<Yexo>or why he removes empty lines in random places and adds them in other places
13:08<nighthawk_c_m>Probably copyright reasons - change something and it isn't what it formerly was :-P
13:08<Yexo>or why he comments out some asserts instead of fixing them (if they need changing)
13:08<nighthawk_c_m>Maybe he didn't have timne yet and marked those for himself to remember?
13:09<Yexo>+ /* commented out to allow smaller maps than 256 * 256, while TGP_FREQUENCY_MAX is set to 8 or higher.
13:09<Yexo>+ * Read IMPORTANT NOTICE above near TGP_FREQUENCY_MAX declaration (this file: line 200 something) */
13:09<Yexo>that reads like he thinks it's "fixed" this way
13:10<Yexo>or why he's reinventing Clamp/Max/Min
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13:11<Yexo>^^ lots of things to wonder about that in that patch
13:12<OwenS>I presume you refer to his patch pack?
13:12<Yexo>no, to the more heigh levels patch
13:13<@Rubidium>Yexo: do you look at the patch like... "hmm, what's this, and what's this... okay, lots of WTFs... don't care"?
13:13<OwenS>In my case, he submitted in"corrections" to ProgSigs
13:13<Yexo>Rubidium: yes
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13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19682 /trunk/src/lang/unfinished/irish.txt:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: irish - 26 changes by Nalum
13:46<Arthur_>how can i contact a Dev-Team-Member?
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>by writing your question here.
13:46<Yexo>Arthur_: ok, you've now had contact. Was that all?
13:47<Arthur_>i am programming, and i use a iso-tile, i want to know what is the fastet way to sort the deph in iso from mobil units
13:48<Yexo>I really don't have a clue about that
13:48<Terkhen>me neither
13:49<Arthur_>to sort the howl unit list is to slow
13:49<Arthur_>i think
13:49<CIA-6>OpenTTD: smatz * r19683 /trunk/src/road_type.h: -Fix (r19654): towns with 3x3 and 2x2 road layouts couldn't expand
13:50<Arthur_>howl = whol ^^
13:50<Yexo>I think openttd uses a hashtable from tile to vehicle, so it only checks vehicles that are on visible tiles
13:50<frosch123>ottd hashes the screen position of vehicles for that
13:51<frosch123>sorting of the vehicles left after clamping to viewport is slow though
13:51<Arthur_>yes i think so
13:52<frosch123>n^2 actually
13:54<Arthur_>mhh ok thank you
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13:54<Eddi|zuHause>so that's what's slow when zooming out very far?
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13:55<Arthur_>i dont have any experience with iso programming :)
13:55<Arthur_>so thanks^^
13:56<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: and that you draw a hillarious number of sprites which mostly only cover some pixels
14:02<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19684 /trunk/src/misc_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#3779]: don't show an error message when trying to give another client an amount of 0 money
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14:05<Arthur_>i have a qestion, when i take Sharesvrom other company it kost? becouse i have buyed in a past game the whole enemys and it doesnt cost?
14:06<Arthur_>Sharesvrom = Shares from
14:07<Noldo>it costs
14:08<Arthur_>mhh ok i ask my why it doesnt cost in my past game :( i must look again, thanks
14:09<@Rubidium>because you bought an utterly bankrupt company and unbeknownst to you you took over their loan
14:10<Arthur_>oh^^ aso ok, mhh yes the SimpleAI is realy bad ^^
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14:16<Eddi|zuHause>SimpleAI was supposed to mimic the original AI
14:18<Arthur_>yes but if i have 3 enemys, 2 of them goes to bankrupt
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14:18<Arthur_>and i desn't change the ai options
14:18<frosch123>SimpleAI was supposed to mimic the original AI
14:20<Arthur_>yes read it allready^^ i only say it, ... its the mest tycoon simulator i ever seen, Open TTD.
14:20<Arthur_>mest = best^^
14:21<Arthur_>I should not complain, you are rigt
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>well, what frosch123 meant was: the original AI did go bankrupt two out of three times, so SimpleAI perfectly met its design goal :p
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14:25<Arthur_>mhh its long time ago i played the original^^
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14:28<Arthur_>Does "Chris Sawyer" still programming?
14:30<KenjiE20>who knows... we can live in hope though :)
14:31<Arthur_>^^ yes he sould make a new TT ^^
14:31<Arthur_>in 3D :)
14:32<nighthawk_c_m>Nah, I prefer the 2d version - its the best because the focus is on gameplay and not graphcs
14:32<nighthawk_c_m>same with openttd - even so 32 bit graphics look very nice
14:33<Arthur_>mmm yes but good gameplay with good graphic is better ^^ Open TTD should be go to 3D :)
14:33<@Rubidium>3D, as in 2D and written in D?
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>there's a filigrane balance between graphics and gameplay, unfortunately most current games overshoot the graphics part
14:34*andythenorth mehs at 32bpp
14:38<SpComb>boycott 32bpp
14:39<Arthur_>why boycott 32bpp?
14:40<Arthur_>i like it, but its still not finished :(
14:40<nighthawk_c_m>well, i suppose the problem is that everything made so far is 8bpp - and now things would need to be redone in 32bpp - quite a bit of work, especially concerning the newgrf's
14:40<Arthur_>aso yes
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>my personal opinion is that 32bpp is a dead end, it wants to achieve something it isn't designed for
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>and it's very uncoordinated
14:42<Arthur_>yes its true that its uncoordinared
14:43<SpComb>"Incredibly sad, it just goes to show how important good education and well maintained fences are."
14:44<Terkhen> <-- what do you think of this GUI? (the subtype part of the window is intended to disappear when clicking in a cargo with no subtypes)
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14:45<SmatZ>Terkhen: it looks nice, except the word "cargo" is misused in this case :-/
14:46<SmatZ>Cargo: Gear ratio
14:46<KenjiE20>^ perhaps "Select refit type:"
14:46<Terkhen>indeed, but usually it shows cargos
14:46<nighthawk_c_m>Yepp, misleading - looks very good so - and in the lower one it would mean something different then gear ratio I think SmatZ
14:46<Terkhen>it could change the title if it has only cargos of the special type
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14:50<nighthawk_c_m>the selct cargo subtype would need a different name - maybe something like "Select vehicle length" or "Select maximum capacity"
14:51<nighthawk_c_m>And the top one as said something involving the gear Ratio thingy
14:51<Yexo>nighthawk_c_m: that's not possible, it needs to be a single string
14:51<Yexo>the grf defines how it uses the cargo subtype
14:52<Yexo>nars uses it fore gear ratiosn, other grfs for cap/length tradeoff
14:52<nighthawk_c_m>ah ok
14:52<Yexo>other grfs could use it just to select a differnt livery
15:00<frosch123>Terkhen: something about "Refit options" on the left, and "Variants" on the right?
15:01<Pikka>why does this dialog need redoing anyway?
15:01<frosch123>because there are way too much options for some sets
15:01<Pikka>it's pretty straightforward at the moment. it's also nice to be able to see all the variants at once
15:02<Pikka>you lose the ability to see which variants are available for which cargos by splitting it
15:02<frosch123>take fish with three capacitites for 25 different cargos or so
15:02<frosch123>oh, you mean adding a "(variants)" in the left column?
15:03<Pikka>with Terkhen's example, you can only see the variants available for a cargo by selecting it first
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15:04*Pikka shrugs
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15:05<Pikka>it's not a major issue, I just don't see how it's an improvement :)
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15:08<frosch123> <- take that as example :p
15:09<Pikka>:P I was about to give you a similar example
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15:10<Pikka>I don't see how it's any harder to scroll down that list, find the cargo you want then select a subclass
15:10<Pikka>than to click the cargo you want in a list of just the cargos, then select a subclass :P
15:11<andythenorth>I think the missing link is 'type to filter' - as used to awesome effect in the newgrf window...
15:13<andythenorth>also...we're sticking lipstick on a pig
15:13<andythenorth>my abuse of cargo subtype refits to vary capacity being the pig in this case
15:14<Pikka>I'm doing that in av8 now, if that's any consolation. :P
15:14<Pikka>adding combi refits
15:14<andythenorth>so the window now contains....
15:14<andythenorth>cargo + (livery + number vehicles + cargo subtype)
15:15<andythenorth>wonder what the originator of cargo subtype thinks of this :P
15:15<frosch123>hmm, av8 1.6 is broken in nightly
15:15<Pikka>how so, frosch123?
15:15<frosch123>it gets disabled due to usage of invalid id :s
15:15<Pikka>how percule... D:
15:16<Pikka>"make sure newgrfs can't overwrite sound effect properties from other newgrfs
15:16<Pikka>I bet
15:17<frosch123>rc1 works
15:17<frosch123>are you doing that?
15:18<Pikka>not as far as I know
15:18<Pikka>I'm trying the nightly now
15:19<Pikka>more information would be nice D:
15:19<andythenorth>newgrf debug tools?
15:20<Yexo>Pikka: sprite 95 is trying to modify sound effect 157
15:21<Yexo>while there are only 84 sound effects in your grf (157 -73 (original count) = 84)
15:21<Pikka>94 * 7 00 0C 01 01 51 08 60
15:21<Pikka>95 * 7 00 0C 01 01 52 08 60
15:21<Pikka>96 * 7 00 0C 01 01 53 08 60
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15:21<Pikka>looks awfully like 0x52 to me
15:22<Pikka>therefore, I blame OTTD :D
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>it gets awfully full at times...
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>(the refit window)
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>i think splitting is good
15:23<Yexo>Pikka: you're probably right, testing now
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>same way you split station types into categories
15:24<frosch123>+ if (sid + numinfo - ORIGINAL_SAMPLE_COUNT >= _cur_grffile->num_sounds) { <- obiwan, right?
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15:25<frosch123>sid ORIGINAL_SAMPLECOUNT and numinfo = num_sounds = 0 should be fine
15:25<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19685 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r19679): off-by-one error
15:26<Yexo>numinfo == 0 should never happen i think
15:26<Yexo>but sid = ORIGINAL_SMAPLECOUNT-1 and numinfo=1 is fine
15:26<frosch123>second obian today :) always two they are :p
15:26<Yexo>there is actually a third one in the grfmsg the line under that
15:26<Yexo>didn't fix that yet, as it's the same for other types
15:27<Yexo>attemtying to change %u, whre %u = sid+numinfo
15:27<Yexo>but it doesn't change sid+numinfo, the highest id it changes is sid+numinfo-1
15:28<frosch123>well, most important, i can continue my game now. thanks :)
15:29<Terkhen>sorry, I lost my connection :/
15:29*Terkhen reads
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15:31<Terkhen>well, my problem with the refit window is that the list is sometimes so long that it takes too long to find what I want
15:32<Terkhen>I'm open to possible solutions... I guess that filtering would also solve it
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15:34<andythenorth>filtering improves lists where the user knows what they are looking for....and can spell :P
15:34<andythenorth>long lists always have usability fail
15:34<Yexo>I thought it was filtering as in a dropdown with all cargos
15:34<andythenorth>I mean as in the newgrf window
15:35<andythenorth>it's genius :)
15:35*frosch123 wants to refit vehicles with three clicks, not by clicking a textbox or typing etc...
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>it were even more genious if the filter string would get kept between two openings, or the window would get kept open after adding a grf
15:36<frosch123>Terkhen: but i guess adding some hint behind the items on the left if there would be something on the right might be beneficial. similiar to "(refittable)" in the engine lists
15:36<frosch123>just not "(refittable)" :p
15:36*andythenorth wants fewer clicks and more typing :)
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15:36<andythenorth>keyboard ftw
15:36*andythenorth may not be a typical mac user
15:37<andythenorth>full keyboard control anyone?
15:37<Yexo>there was a patch someday wehre you could issue a lot of command via the console
15:37<Terkhen>frosch123: that would still fail to provide information about what the subtypes do
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15:38<Terkhen>I prefer clicks myself too
15:38<andythenorth>meh, rsi
15:38<Terkhen>but anything without scrolling a kilometric list would do
15:39<frosch123>Terkhen: i mean vehicles which offer subcargos only for some cargos
15:39<andythenorth>Terkhen: I could just add more vehicles in the buy menu and consequently fewer refits :P
15:39<Terkhen>andythenorth: that scroll is also long enough already :)
15:40<andythenorth>we could just solve it TTD Patch style?
15:40<Terkhen>frosch123: that sounds good
15:40<Yexo>andythenorth: which is?
15:40<andythenorth>fewer vehicle IDs
15:40<andythenorth>so buy menu is shorter :P
15:41<Yexo>I thought it was about the refit list now
15:41<andythenorth>then we can make each refit an actual vehicle....hmmm there might be a problem there actually
15:41<andythenorth>I know: deprecate cargo subtype refit!
15:42*Pikka refits andythenorth
15:42<Yexo>can one vehicle have differnt cargo subtype refits per cargo?
15:42*Terkhen forgets to list andythenorth's cargo subtypes
15:42<frosch123>andythenorth: more vehicles is easier for ais though
15:43<andythenorth>Yexo: it's a cb, so us twisty grf authors could invent all kinds of madness there
15:43<Pikka>differnt cargo subtype refits per cargo <- you mean different subtypes for different cargos?
15:43<Yexo>Pikka: yes
15:43<frosch123>andythenorth: you are too late, there is already the planeset
15:43<Yexo>I know the solution: disable newgrf support
15:43<andythenorth>Yexo: I like that
15:43<Yexo>no long vehicle lists or refit lists anymore
15:43<andythenorth>it will save a lot of time and bug reports
15:44<frosch123>and andy would have enough time to become mac maintainer
15:44<andythenorth>or add smoke to ships
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15:47<andythenorth>Terkhen: FWIW I like your suggestion for the refit window
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15:48<Terkhen>I'm not sure it is the best option, though
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15:52<andythenorth>what are your doubts?
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15:55<Terkhen>vehicles with different subtypes for each type of cargo
15:55<Terkhen>I'm not sure if adding (4 subtypes) or something like that is enough
15:57<Terkhen>I can't think of any existing grf set that would have problems with that, though
15:57<frosch123>what are you now planning?
15:57<Terkhen>nothing, just wondering :P
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16:03<andythenorth>Terkhen: your option makes the list cognitively easier to use, but more clicks....
16:03<andythenorth>which is the bigger evil?
16:07<Terkhen>I don't mind the additional click (much better than scrolling)... I have the impression that it will fail to show some required information, but I can't think of anything specific
16:07<Terkhen>perhaps I'm thinking too much :P
16:07<andythenorth>you can never think too much about GUI stuff
16:09<andythenorth>I like the 'filter on string' option because for people like Pikka, it's not a noticeable change. For people like me, it's 'type and 1 click'.
16:09<andythenorth>It would also expose all the refit options for a cargo in a minimum of screen space
16:09<andythenorth>and all refits could be browsed by scrolling an unfiltered list
16:09*andythenorth photoshops
16:15<Terkhen>filtering is okay when there's no good way of displaying the info, but in this case the data is clearly organized (a list of cargos, each one with a list of subtypes)
16:20<andythenorth>the issue is narrowing the users choice ASAP
16:20<andythenorth>i.e. providing focus on only what the player needs
16:20<XeryusTC>@openttd commig 19654
16:20<XeryusTC>@openttd commit 19654
16:20<@DorpsGek>XeryusTC: Commit by frosch :: r19654 /trunk/src (24 files) (2010-04-17 13:31:41 UTC)
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16:21<@DorpsGek>XeryusTC: -Codechange: Use Extract<> in more places.
16:21<andythenorth>but also not hiding any information more windows
16:21<XeryusTC>@openttd commit 19683
16:21<@DorpsGek>XeryusTC: Commit by smatz :: r19683 trunk/src/road_type.h (2010-04-20 17:49:11 UTC)
16:21<@DorpsGek>XeryusTC: -Fix (r19654): towns with 3x3 and 2x2 road layouts couldn't expand
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16:30<Terkhen>that makes sense a lot of sense, but I'm still not sure that typing is the easiest way of finding what you want
16:31<andythenorth>google disagrees :P
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16:32<Terkhen>as I said, filtering is fine when there's no good way of organizing the info
16:32<SmatZ>filtering is slow
16:32<SmatZ>when you want to refit like 20 trains
16:32<SmatZ>and typing the filter string 20 times...
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16:33<andythenorth>typing is faster for many people than clicking....fingers are faster than the brain/fingers target acquisition time
16:34<andythenorth>if that makes any sense :P
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16:34<andythenorth>typing is easy, clicking accurately on things in long lists is not, might be a better way of putting it
16:34<frosch123>but only if you already have the hands at the keyboard
16:35<andythenorth>if we do hierarchical menus, we start hiding information
16:35<andythenorth>dunno if that information is useful though
16:36<Terkhen>well... the information is less clear only in the "cargos with different subtypes" case
16:36<Terkhen>if you have a single cargo type or cargos without subtypes, it will use the original behaviour
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16:37<Terkhen>if you have a lot of cargo types but they all use similar subtypes, you can guess what they are using
16:38<andythenorth>...especially if the grf author helpfully provides that info in the buy menu text...
16:38<frosch123>andythenorth: that fails for trains with different wagons
16:44*andythenorth does some stuff with hovercraft
16:45<Terkhen>hmm... no nice solution :/
16:46*Terkhen will do something else while resting on this idea
16:46<andythenorth>code smoke for ships? :P
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16:47<Pikka>andythenorth does some stuff with hovercraft <- you filthy swine, you!
16:47<Terkhen>no, boring university stuff :)
16:47<Pikka>good morning herr Lakie
16:48<Lakie>Hi Pikka, 'tis evening here in the UK tho.
16:48<Terkhen>like trying to make a stupid Qt widget resizable
16:50*Lakie only briefly touched Qt... Never needed to do that
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16:54<OwenS>Terkhen: Making a Qt widge resizable?
16:55<OwenS>Custom or builtin?
16:55<Terkhen>to force it to change its size when you resize the MainWindow
16:55<OwenS>Terkhen: Put it in an appropriate container, set its size policy to "Expanding" or "Maximum"
16:56<OwenS>appropriate layout**
16:56<OwenS>(Suggestion: Use the UI designer)
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16:57<Terkhen>already tried that, I'm probably messing up something that stops it from working
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16:59<OwenS>Qt is remarkably flexible when you get to know it. My app has a custom titlebar widget (Its themed, so I wanted it to match, and it also allowed me to pack the menu bar into it and conserve window space)
16:59<OwenS>(And said custom titlebar is pure Qt)
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17:20*SmatZ slaps nasm
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17:20*OwenS roots for gas
17:21<SmatZ>why does it have such silly way of making symbols extern
17:21*OwenS wonders what that method os
17:21<SmatZ>"extern XXX; global XXX; XXX:" ... barf :-x
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17:22<SmatZ>so all files can't share one "header with all externs"
17:22<OwenS>I would expect global to override extern :s
17:22<SmatZ>yeah, but it doesn't like it :(
17:22<OwenS>Just Use Gas (TM)
17:22<OwenS>Or try YASM
17:22<OwenS>(And thats GAS AT&T syntax ^^)
17:23<OwenS>Intel syntax is why people ask why "lea eax. [ebx + ecx * edx ^^ esi]" doesn't work
17:24<OwenS>At least with Gas its the explicit-whats-allowed offset(base, index, multiplier)
17:24<SmatZ>also, loading constants with gas syntax
17:24<SmatZ>is very similiar to loading from address
17:24<SmatZ>mov 4,eax
17:24<SmatZ>mov $4,eax
17:24<OwenS>$constant / address
17:25<SmatZ>actually, it should be movl...
17:25<OwenS>(TrueBrain would probably call them offset(base, index, scale)
17:25<OwenS>SmatZ: and %eax
17:25<SmatZ>yeah, I never used AT&T :)
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17:25<OwenS>lea 8(%eax, %esi, 4), %edx ftw
17:26<Pikka>damn you zernebok...! *shakes fist*
17:26<TrueBrain>OwenS: I call nothing
17:26<OwenS>TrueBrain: I thought the modifier which controlled that addressing mode was the "SIB byte"? :p
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17:27<SmatZ>offset(base, index, multiplier) <== doesn't prevent you wondering from 0(eax, ebx, 3) doesn't work
17:27<TrueBrain>OwenS: I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, but I just disliked the fact you highlighted me
17:28<OwenS>TrueBrain: Heh. I thought you would have since you wrote OpenDune's libemu
17:28<OwenS>SmatZ: true, but using shifts would just be overly confusing
17:28<TrueBrain>still no clue what you are talking about :p
17:29<OwenS>TrueBrain: x86 addressing
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17:41<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like "you painted your car green, can you help me choosing oil colours for my painting?"
17:42<SmatZ>hehe :)
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17:44<Nite_Owl>Hello all
17:44<SmatZ>hello Nite_Owl
17:44<Nite_Owl>Hello SmatZ
17:46<OwenS>Hmm... Speaking of OpenDune, GNU FDL for the wiki? :S
17:46<OwenS>Same for the OpenTTD wki :(
17:48<@Rubidium>they wiki is as out-of-date as ours already :)
17:48<OwenS>And both are now stuck on licenses incompatible with most wikis
17:48<@Rubidium>which is?
17:48<OwenS>CC-BY-SA 3.0
17:49-!-zodttd [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:49<OwenS>Wikimedia, for example, relicensed under it in August last year
17:49*andythenorth is troubled by refit costs
17:49<@Rubidium>before they were GNU FDL IIRC
17:49<andythenorth>and, in fact, by refitting full stop
17:50<OwenS>Rubidium: yes, but they relicensed
17:50<@Rubidium>they haven't asked me!
17:50<OwenS>Rubidium: you contributed under the GFDL 1.2 or any later version. The GFDL 1.3 contains a specific relicensing clause to permit them to do so
17:50<OwenS>That clause has now expired
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17:53<Pikka>andythenorth: needs more refit cost callback :)
17:54<andythenorth>ships and planes share a similar problem
17:54<andythenorth>refitting to most freight should be £0
17:54<andythenorth>refitting from PAX to freight or vice versa should be £expensive
17:54<andythenorth>refit to something like oil tanker should be £expensive
17:54<andythenorth>but it's only a game
17:55<Pikka>callback, cargo to and from, refit cycle, bosh, done. :P
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17:57*andythenorth invents a 'magic refit'.....the ship / plane just refits automatically to the cargo which both is available in largest quantity *and* is accepted at next destination
17:58<andythenorth>needs a patch :P
17:58<andythenorth>also...this hovercraft is fricking enormous :o
17:58<Pikka>that's what she said
18:00*andythenorth needs more of the blue pixles
18:01<Pikka>danger, will robinson
18:01*Pikka wonders if industry airports are allowed to have hangars
18:04<Nite_Owl>Oooo - a 'Lost In Space' reference
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18:05<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: for servicing? or for buying vehicles?
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18:06<Nite_Owl>It was only when I got older and watched 'Lost In Space' in reruns that I realized what a raging queen Dr. Smith was
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18:06<Pikka>either, Eddi, although I imagine just servicing is more likely.
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18:24<Devedse>how do you activate certain graphiks (like the train used for logic gates that goes 3000 m/s) in your game?
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18:28<mrruben5>Are there any bugs known that cause the missing content finder to malfunction under osx?
18:29<Pikka>the newgrf settings button, Devedse, and yes, mrruben5.
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18:35*Devedse crashed the trains
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18:37<Terkhen>good night
18:38<Eddi|zuHause>mrruben5: yes, broken zlib
18:38<mrruben5>that explains
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18:38<Eddi|zuHause>1.2.4 = bad, = good
18:39<@Rubidium>if only OSX would use the newest version of zlib
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18:43<SmatZ>Rubidium: like,
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>a bad version, once released, isn't suddenly going away
18:44<@Rubidium>SmatZ: like 1.2.5
18:44<SmatZ>Rubidium: right, it's out already :)
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18:52<planetmaker>Rubidium: what's the newest zlib? 1.2.4 afaik?
18:52<planetmaker>or did it change in the last 14(?) days?
18:53<Wizzleby>1.2.5 afaict
18:54<planetmaker>he. 19 April :-)
18:55<SmatZ>yeah, 1.2.5 is yesterday's :)
18:55<+glx>I was still using 1.2.3 :)
18:55<SmatZ>so I am ;)
18:56<planetmaker>glx: that was till November last year also current
18:56<planetmaker>1.2.4 was March
18:56<mrruben5>Soooo, compiled zlib 1.2.5 with ./configure && make install
18:57<mrruben5>doesn't work yet :/
18:57<SmatZ>the good way is using your distro's package manager
18:57<SmatZ>else you can break things
18:57<planetmaker>yeah :S
18:57<SmatZ>or at least
18:57<@Rubidium>planetmaker: I said that Adler said that a new version was due in more than days and less than weeks, right?
18:58<+glx>planetmaker: 1.2.3 is from 2005
18:58<planetmaker>Yes, Rubidium :-) I recall that
19:00<mrruben5>smartz: port update zlib then?
19:02<SmatZ>mrruben5: apple was quick with 1.2.4, I hope they will be even faster with 1.2.5 :)
19:02<SmatZ>I don't know much about OSX...
19:02<@Rubidium>SmatZ: were they, I only heard complaints after 1.0.0
19:02<@Rubidium>which means 2 weeks
19:03<mrruben5>nope macports has 1.2.4
19:03<mrruben5>so I need to compile myself I guess
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19:07<planetmaker>SmatZ: macports is afaik not directly related to apple
19:07*SmatZ created zlib-1.2.5 ebuild for gentoo, if anyone interested
19:07<+glx>lol they forgot to update win32 readme
19:10<+glx>and make install doesn't work
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19:14<+glx>why did they disable configure for mingw ???
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19:15<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like you're having fun ;)
19:15<+glx>IIRC 1.2.3 compiled out of the box
19:16<Ammler>well, it looks like 1.2.5 just fixes bugs from >1.2.3, so if you still use that old zlib, you are fine
19:16<Ammler>which e.g. suse and fedora does
19:17<Ammler>would suprise me, if they update :-)
19:17<+glx>too much work needed to get 1.2.5, I'll stick to 1.2.3 for now
19:17<planetmaker>well. there are some other bug fixes wrt 1.2.3
19:18<planetmaker>Ammler: there's mem leaks in there afair the changelog
19:18<Ammler>yeah, suse spec uses around 5 patches
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---Logclosed Wed Apr 21 00:00:01 2010