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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-04-23

---Logopened Fri Apr 23 00:00:05 2010
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04:27<Terkhen>good morning
04:29<__ln__>correct
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05:10<KloBass>why does openttd still using midi?
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05:13<Terkhen>why is using midi a problem?
05:13<Mazur>Because it's programmed that way? Dunno, just guessing here.
05:14<KloBass>well midi seems a little bit obsolete now
05:14<@peter1138>bwahaha
05:14<Mazur>Possible reason ro do so: because openttd wants to be free (Cue F. Mercury & co.) and it's easier to create free MIDI music.
05:14<Eddi|zuHause>... everything people don't understand is automatically obsolete...
05:14<Terkhen>it sounds good for me :)
05:15<Mazur>Yes, for me to. If I want to play piano, I just have to tell my MIDI.
05:15<KloBass>well ogg is free also
05:15<Eddi|zuHause>damn you, now i have that song in my head
05:15<@peter1138>"tell your MIDI"...
05:16<Mazur>Yes, but can you choose a random instrument and play it over ogg?
05:16<Eddi|zuHause>Mazur: MIDI is an interface, not an object
05:16<Terkhen>besides, OpenTTD original (midi) songs fit in 1 MB... a version of them in MP3 that is somewhere in the forums requires 72 MB
05:17<Mazur>It's an interface to samples of instruments.
05:17<KloBass>Terkhen: thats good argument
05:17<Terkhen>I don't know if ogg compression is better, but I doubt it can reach 1 MB
05:17<@peter1138>no, it's an interface
05:17<@peter1138>samples of instruments is just one particular implementation of a midi-controlled synthesizer
05:18<Mazur>If you insist, you're probably right, as I don't know mucch about the sound systems.
05:18<Mazur>Can you control that synthesizer through an ogg interface?
05:18<KloBass>dunno :)
05:18<Eddi|zuHause>i've seen roller organs controlled by midi ;)
05:19<Eddi|zuHause>Mazur: you're asking the wrong question
05:19<KloBass>but have to recompile my kernel :-D
05:19<KloBass>i want that music back
05:19<KloBass>:-D
05:19<@peter1138>(if i want a piano sound, i fire up pianoteq, which models a piano through complicated synthesis techniques... but absolutely no samples)
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05:23<Mazur>Eddi|zuHause: Story of my life, I'm an ASS that way.
05:23<@peter1138>yeah, ogg is not an interface :)
05:25<Mazur>Yes, I know, I formulated it totally wrong.
05:26<@peter1138>you can, however, implement a way to do that
05:26<@peter1138>it would be pretty pointless though
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05:40<KloBass>one more question
05:40<@peter1138>sorry, you've had your quota :D
05:40<KloBass>is there a way to tell trains to force ignore only one signal on their way
05:41<KloBass>like add into goto goto here and ignore all signals you will meet
05:42<KloBass>peter1138: :(
05:42<SpComb>you shouldn't need to ignore signals like that
05:43<@peter1138>yeah, if you're ignoring signals, you're doing it wrong
05:43<SpComb>like trying to build a railway network using only two-way basic signals
05:44<KloBass>well if you have one tunnel like 170units long
05:44<KloBass>you have to wait very long time before one train exits it
05:45<Noldo>you want to send train to the tunnel ignoring signals
05:45<SpComb>then you have a faster train and a slower train...
05:45<KloBass>Noldo: i know but you have to click it manually
05:45<Noldo>interesting solution to the tunnel problem
05:45<@peter1138>or a jam at the end
05:46<KloBass>SpComb: no
05:46<Noldo>it would help if you could set the speed of the train while going somewhere
05:47<Eddi|zuHause>i would love that speed setting
05:47<@peter1138>new order, max speed? :p
05:47<Noldo>goto with max speed
05:47<Eddi|zuHause>"go via waypoint a, at max. 80km/h"
05:47<Eddi|zuHause>it would be a per-order setting
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05:48<KloBass>well it will not solve problem when you have one way rails and there is a big tunel over 150 titles your trains have to wait before tunel antrance because you cant have signals in tunel
05:48<Eddi|zuHause>KloBass: see, there is your solution, implement signals in tunnels
05:48<KloBass>so in entrance there is red all the time until train leaves tunel
05:49<KloBass>Eddi|zuHause: or make underground rails :) manually
05:49<Noldo>Eddi|zuHause: where would you use that max speed setting?
05:49<Eddi|zuHause>Noldo: in mixed passenger/cargo lines, when a fast train is scheduled to follow a slow train
05:50<Eddi|zuHause>even more useful if maintenance cost were based on acceleration and speed
05:51<Eddi|zuHause>a train going 80km/h would be way cheaper than a train accelerating to 160km/h and stopping all the time
05:51<KloBass>is there ofical way to suggest improvment?
05:51<@peter1138>heh
05:52<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, add a speed limit to each order complicates things
05:52<Eddi|zuHause>"things"?
05:53<Eddi|zuHause>how is that different than load/unload settings or scheduled times?
05:54<@peter1138>load/unload was always there
05:55<Mazur>Moving blo9ck trains would obviate the need of all those complicated methods.
05:55<Eddi|zuHause>how is that an argument?
05:55<@peter1138>i dunno :P
05:56<Eddi|zuHause>great :p
05:56*KloBass lold
05:56<KloBass>impossible features : • Underground stations/track/signals
05:57<KloBass>my bat
05:57<KloBass>:-D
05:57<KloBass>wrong forum
05:57<KloBass>:-D
05:57<KloBass>bad*
05:57<KloBass>mg
06:00<@peter1138>that's the ultimate solution :)
06:00<@peter1138>just play locomotion to see it done badly ;p
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06:01<KloBass>ye
06:01<KloBass>good idea
06:01<KloBass>but there is 50% done in tunel signals
06:01<KloBass>according to wiki
06:01<KloBass>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=41260
06:02<@peter1138>yeah but it's probably useless
06:03<KloBass>why?
06:03<Eddi|zuHause>wrong approach
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06:35*klobassgoestolunch KloBass
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06:35<KloBass>:)
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07:21<andythenorth>hmmm
07:21<andythenorth>'breakdowns off' makes for a nice train set, but is a bit weird
07:22<@peter1138>i tend to play with them off
07:23<@peter1138>breakdowns too (hurr hurr)
07:23<planetmaker>breakdowns are annoying
07:24<andythenorth>no breakdowns means far less depot building
07:24<planetmaker>that's something you can force upon yourself.
07:24<andythenorth>put that with a game where the majority of vehicles are losing money and everything's gone strange
07:25<planetmaker>"strange"?
07:25<andythenorth>just feels a bit wrong
07:25<planetmaker>I cannot agree quite :-)
07:26<planetmaker>The "loosing" money is an aspect which happens quite frequently in feeder systems...
07:26<planetmaker>And it's not really something bad per se, I think
07:26<planetmaker>It's even realistc ;-)
07:26<planetmaker>uh... there was it, that bad word :-P
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07:27<andythenorth>hmmm
07:27<KenjiE20>most of my games end up a bit like that, a few key cash cows fund the ones loosing
07:27<andythenorth>no breakdowns also means no replacing vehicles, which is weird
07:28<andythenorth>I have 95 year old ferries
07:28<andythenorth>hey ho
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07:29<andythenorth>I only turned off breakdowns because with PBS servicing can be a hassle
07:32<Mazur>andythenorth: I had no troubles.
07:33<andythenorth>it's fine if signals are placed carefully. But on single-track-with-passing-loops it can become a hassle, especially where space is tight.
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>i find servicing annoying
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>it doesn't fit in my networks
07:36<Eddi|zuHause>and breakdowns are way too often
07:36<andythenorth>I like RT3 servicing - it's just a thing that happens in stations
07:36<andythenorth>add maintenance facilities to a station, the train gets serviced there.
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>what i'd like to see is fuel distance and refilling time
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>especially for airplanes
07:37<andythenorth>what would that do?
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07:37<Eddi|zuHause>it would set a maximum distance between stops
07:37<andythenorth>and if they run out of fuel, proceed at 3mph?
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>no
07:38<Eddi|zuHause>the orders would be important, like for ships
07:38<Eddi|zuHause>you can't set orders for stations further away than their fuel distance
07:39<Noldo>maybe you could but they would turn back when noticing they can't make it
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>if an airplane has a distance of 300 tiles, you can't send it across a 2048 map
07:40<Eddi|zuHause>it would also make a difference for steam engines with additional tender
07:41<andythenorth>hmmm interesting
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>are you investing more weight and maintenance cost for fewer and shorter stops?
07:41<andythenorth>On balance I like breakdowns on
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>refuelling would work similar to loading, it takes a certain amount of time
07:42<Eddi|zuHause>question is: should fuel distance scale with map size?
07:42<Noldo>maybe that max speed setting could also play a part ;)
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07:43<Eddi|zuHause>Noldo: no, it must be something static... there should be no "run out of fuel"
07:43<Noldo>I meant like, takes more fuel to go fast
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07:45<Eddi|zuHause>but you can't do that when you combine this with a limit for giving orders in the first place
07:45<@Rubidium>take more fuel, thus higher range but less capacity
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>would also give battery powered vs. diesel powered more strategic value. battery powered is cheaper, but rather low range
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>and refilling takes longer with battery
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07:51<Eddi|zuHause>and electric doesn't need refilling at all
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07:56<@peter1138>feel free to write these patches...
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08:38<ccfreak2k>Eddi|zuHause, so your diesel train stalls because it's out of fuel - now what?
08:39<ccfreak2k>Oh wait, I missed that part.
08:41<@peter1138>it'll have to run slowly, like not enough power up hill?
08:41<@peter1138>oh, if it can't run out of fuel... what's the point? heh
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08:42<Eddi|zuHause>i said it should be a static limit on the orders, not with a dynamic "run out of fuel" element
08:42<ccfreak2k>Maybe he wants to increase running cost to make deliveries faster.
08:42<ccfreak2k>Or something.
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08:42<@peter1138>silly
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08:43<@peter1138>you could build a huge loop with 2 stations near each other
08:43<@peter1138>stopping off at stations in between
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>early propeller aircraft should not cross the entire map
08:46<JostVice>is it possible to have two trains in a network that connects different towns using only one rail?
08:46<Eddi|zuHause>yes, you can still cross the map with inbetween stops
08:46<JostVice>and having two platforms in each station
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>JostVice: it only makes sense if you have a double track section in the middle, not at the ends
08:47<JostVice>soi would need to have double track everywhere
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>no... somewhere
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08:50<JostVice>um
08:51<JostVice>it is better to have double track and have them one-way only ?
08:51<SpComb>JostVice: depends on how intensively you want to run the trains
08:51<KenjiE20>depends on traffic
08:52<Eddi|zuHause>the double track serction can be as short as one train length, and should be one-way
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08:53<Eddi|zuHause>with two trains you need one double track section, with three trains you need two double track sections, and so on.
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08:54<Eddi|zuHause>they should be evenly spaced, and the trains should have a schedule with waiting times at the end
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08:56<nighthawk_c_m>Anyone here that could help me on a ECS problem?
08:56<KloBass>!man ecs
08:56<KloBass>hmm
08:57<nighthawk_c_m>??
08:57<JostVice>one double track section in between two stations?
08:59<Terkhen>nighthawk_c_m: we won't know until you tell your problem
08:59<JostVice>I already have two platforms in the stations, and a section with double track, what sygnals should i put in that section and in the track? I guess normal two way block signals in the whole track, and entry presignals and exit signals ?
09:02<nighthawk_c_m>I have a problem with the standard ECS Power plant - I only use the ECS Town and Basic Vector - settings are that mines dont die and max acceptance being 56k - in addition I have a patched version running with extended daylength - now the power station does not increase its output/need for coal.
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09:04<nighthawk_c_m>And in the ECS wikki is no explicit entry for the functions of the power plants
09:05<Terkhen>IIRC daylenght patches caused problems in ECS; you should check the thread of your patched version
09:07<nighthawk_c_m>I found nothing specific concerning ECS there - the problem seems to be based on ECS itself havinga fixed max acceptance instead of a tick based one
09:07<nighthawk_c_m>still I'd like to know how to increase the Level: xx% (state) of the power plant
09:07<nighthawk_c_m>What determins its production of power / usage
09:09<George>nighthawk_c_m: amount of coal+oil waiting
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09:16<nighthawk_c_m>Can't be - amount is 65k for now three month in a row and it doesn't increase its usage
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09:52<@Belugas>hello
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10:31<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19697 /trunk/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Add: sprite for NewGRF some debuging features
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10:33<@peter1138>pardon
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11:21<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19698 /trunk/src/stdafx.h: -Add: macros to get the size/length of a variable within a class
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11:41<@Rubidium>http://rbijker.net/openttd/andy.png <- does that look "useful"?
11:42<@Rubidium>oh, should've said andythenorth :)
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11:49<Eddi|zuHause>that supposed to be a "bug" icon?
11:50<@SmatZ>it's a de-debug icon
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>it looks like a mutated ¥
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11:52<planetmaker>it's an upward walking bug :-)
11:52<planetmaker>and that looks quite useful, Rubidium.
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12:12<Guest1009>Which namespace is used by default?
12:13<Yexo>the self scope of the object you clicked on
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12:14<@SmatZ>unnamed namespace
12:15<Guest1009>So after I do "using namespace std", there is no way to go back?
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12:16<@peter1138>just don't do it :)
12:16<Guest1009>I won't
12:16<Guest1009>Files I never even heard of refuse to compile
12:17<Guest1009>Just typing std:: before every string and vector is a pain
12:17<@SmatZ>"using std::vector"
12:17<@peter1138>yup, that :)
12:18<@peter1138>greece to activate emergency loans... that sounds bad
12:18<__ln__>Guest1009: you can say "using namespace std" inside a function's scope, too.
12:18<Guest1009>Thanks
12:18<@SmatZ>also, why would do that before including any header?
12:19<@SmatZ>*you
12:19<Guest1009>I didn't
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12:23<Alberth>we have very little use of stl in openttd
12:25<@SmatZ>we have our own Small* replacements :)
12:25<@Belugas>shut the light ?
12:25<@Belugas>silence the lunatic?
12:25<@peter1138>band name
12:26<@Belugas>btz
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12:27<@peter1138>hehe
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12:29<Alberth>we have very little use of openttd in openttd
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12:29<Alberth>just testing :)
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12:31<Alberth>although coming up with a good band name for so many letters is quite difficult :p
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12:46<Guest1009>I didn't
12:46<Guest1009>Oops
12:47<Guest1009>Was meant for a terminal
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13:08*Alberth puts a kettle on the fire for some tea
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13:30<CIA-6>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19699 /trunk/src/ (train_cmd.cpp vehicle_gui.cpp): -Codechange: Use InvalidateData at the refit window.
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13:41<andythenorth>evening
13:42<Terkhen>hi andythenorth
13:42<andythenorth>it's Friday, what shall we make?
13:42<nighthawk_c_m>babies? :-P
13:42<andythenorth>got one already
13:42<andythenorth>don't need another one yet
13:43<nighthawk_c_m>hehe
13:43<andythenorth>I have some ships to paint, or I could do some FIRS work
13:43<andythenorth>hmmm
13:43<andythenorth>ships I guess :P
13:44*Alberth gives andythenorth some bright coloured waterproof paint
13:45<andythenorth>umm thanks
13:45<andythenorth>Can I hand out any useful bytes to people, maybe they'd code a few patches?
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19700 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files):
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 1 changes by josesun
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: finnish - 11 changes by jpx_
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: indonesian - 3 changes by fanioz, prof
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: polish - 3 changes by silver_777
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 7 changes by kwast, vitor_015
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13:46<planetmaker>andythenorth: did you see the last useful patch proposal? :-)
13:46<andythenorth>which was?
13:46<planetmaker>[17:41] <Rubidium> http://rbijker.net/openttd/andy.png <- does that look "useful"?
13:47<andythenorth>looks pretty awesome
13:47<andythenorth>wonder if some of the values should be escaped
13:48<planetmaker>that particular question was aimed at you :-) So... your personal patch, your comments welcome, I guess ;-)
13:48<andythenorth>is that an available patch?
13:48<andythenorth>or a proof of concept?
13:50*andythenorth ponders default cargo for freight hovercraft.
13:50<andythenorth>probably goods, not coal
13:50<planetmaker>milk!
13:51<planetmaker>dunno wether that patch is somewhere. Ask Rb :-)
13:51<andythenorth>Rubidium: the debug stuff in the screenshot looks useful. Is it something I can compile yet?
13:52<andythenorth>and no to milk!
13:53<planetmaker>animals?
13:53<planetmaker>;-)
13:53<Terkhen>stuff
13:54<planetmaker>:-P
13:54*andythenorth has overlooked something somewhere to do with goods
13:54<planetmaker>Two cargo scheme:
13:54<planetmaker>folks and stuff
13:55<andythenorth>sometimes 1 crate of goods = 1t
13:55<andythenorth>sometimes 2 crates of goods = 1t
13:55<andythenorth>?
13:55<andythenorth>seems to vary by newgrf, but I haven't really looked into it much
13:55<andythenorth>what should the default be?
13:57<andythenorth>or do I misunderstand?
13:57<asilv>2 goods/t says http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=CargoDefaultProps
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13:58<andythenorth>FIRS has goods at 8, so 2 crates = 1t
13:58<andythenorth>but my vehicles are refitting at 1 crate = 1t
13:58*andythenorth is baffled
13:59*andythenorth also ponders Mail refit for freight hovercraft
13:59<andythenorth>meh
13:59<Alberth>the roads seem to have more gravity
14:00*andythenorth allows Mail refit on freight hovercraft. Don't be the victim of a slavish consistency :p
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14:01<andythenorth>ah frosch123 is here :)
14:01<andythenorth>and I have *no* questions for him
14:02<planetmaker>quak
14:02<frosch123>great \o/
14:02<frosch123>hello andy, moin pm
14:02<planetmaker>moin frosch123 :-)
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14:06<fjb>Quak frosch123
14:06<frosch123>moin fjb :)
14:07<fjb>:)
14:08<@peter1138>andythenorth, do you use the refit capacity callback?
14:08<andythenorth>not for goods, if that's the context of the question. I'm wondering if I should
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14:11*andythenorth wonders if hovercraft are bouyant without the air cushion
14:12<Alberth>of ocurse they are, otherwise they would sink if they have engine problems at the middle of the sea
14:13<Alberth>course*
14:13<@peter1138>ah, that rule is not applied to ships
14:13<andythenorth>Alberth: thought they must be.
14:14*andythenorth wonders if the loading state for 'overcraft should show the skirt inflated or not
14:14<andythenorth>the easy answer is yes
14:14<Alberth>andythenorth: otherwise you will not get permission to transport passengers across the channel :p
14:14*andythenorth offers serious cookies for the first patch to let hovercraft dock on the shore
14:15<Alberth>that would be cool
14:15<andythenorth>conceptually it's almost the same problem as for seaplanes
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14:16<frosch123>or helicopters vs. planes :)
14:16<andythenorth>so....goes in the queue of things that need a state machine? :P
14:17<Alberth>let us await the results of the first experiments :p
14:18<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/hovercraft.png
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14:19<andythenorth>my my hovercraft are fast when you're used to normal ships :o
14:19*Alberth takes the medium freight HC for coal instead of the large one :)
14:20<frosch123>can you refit it do go double speed at double running cost?
14:20<andythenorth>I'm just thinking about that
14:20<planetmaker>frosch123: double running costs would be not proper. tripple or so.
14:20<planetmaker>or quadruple
14:20<andythenorth>it's either: (A) faster unloaded, slower unloaded (B) refit for overload or overspeed or both (C) all of the above
14:20<Alberth>andythenorth: I once pondered setting up a passenger service with 1 person ThrustCC :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThrustSSC
14:21<andythenorth>looks highly efficient
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14:21*andythenorth sorts the offsets out and worries about the speed / capacity refits later
14:22<frosch123>what is the intention of refitting loading speed?
14:22<andythenorth>loading speed? No change. But there is the possibility of refitting for 'overload' (slower)
14:22<andythenorth>maybe Terkhen could figure out the refit GUI first :P
14:23<andythenorth>I'm fooling around with this refit stuff here, but when I eventually do BANDIT (truck set) I want it to be right, as it will be needed a lot.
14:24<andythenorth>I kind of don't like the abuse of 'cargo type' for all these refits, but hey, it's here today and it works :P
14:24<Terkhen>andythenorth: http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/patches/split_refit/split_refit_3.png <--- I'm currently checking the corner cases
14:28<andythenorth>Terkhen: looks workable
14:29*andythenorth imagines the right hand pane with '75t in 2 end dump trailers, company colour', '75t in 2 end dump trailers, alternative colour', '75t in 2 side dump trailers, company colour' etc. etc.
14:30<andythenorth>I can imagine cases where livery, capacity (overload), speed (overspeed), number of trailers and style of trailer are all controlled by refit
14:31<andythenorth>so there could be 50 combinations in that menu
14:31<andythenorth>but if I did that I would be a silly newgrf author indeed
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14:33<Terkhen>I'll post the diff / screenshots at the forums to get some feedback... I still have the feeling that I'm missing something
14:34<andythenorth>it needs testing with some of the refit heavy sets like planeset, AV8 etc
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14:37<frosch123>don't forget trains :)
14:37<Terkhen>yes, I've checked how it looks with some of them, but not any proper testing
14:38<andythenorth>well lets see what play testing turns up :)
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15:01<planetmaker>hm, good question... can one do a livery refit without introducing a dummy cargo?
15:02<andythenorth>on an engine alone?
15:03<planetmaker>yes, that's my question
15:03<planetmaker>also in order to still allow for "full load all"
15:04<planetmaker>for the whole consist
15:04*andythenorth doesn't know
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15:04<@peter1138>nop
15:05<planetmaker>hm, a pity :-(
15:05<planetmaker>but thanks :-)
15:05<@peter1138>maybe you can patch it to :p
15:05<planetmaker>hehe :-)
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15:10<frosch123>planetmaker: you need a cargo, but you can later set capacity to zero, so full load is possible
15:10<planetmaker>full load all even? Hm, that's good news then
15:11<planetmaker>But I guess I cannot refit to livery A and coal as two independent refits?
15:11<andythenorth>there's probably a hack way to do it based on consist? I've done something with HEQS, but it's not a 'livery reift' as I (misunderstand) them
15:16*andythenorth is now too tempted to use hovercraft for all freight shipping :P
15:23<andythenorth>hmmm
15:24<andythenorth>loading speed can be a bit interesting
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16:08<Nite_Owl>Hello all
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16:44<andythenorth>Can I apply a patch as a grf?
16:44<Terkhen>yes (as long as that patch is russian town names)
16:45*andythenorth should stay out of the suggestions forum. It's unhealthy
16:45<andythenorth>actually that one was in OpenTTD forum :P
16:46*andythenorth should sleep
16:46<andythenorth>good night
16:47<Ammler>nightly
16:47<Nite_Owl>later andythenorth
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17:47<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r19701 /trunk/src/ (ai/api/ai_industrytype.cpp industry_cmd.cpp industry_gui.cpp): -Fix [FS#3787]: Check for industry availability more thoroughly and cancel object placement when selecting not available industries.
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17:59<@Rubidium>andythenorth: http://hg.openttd.org/developers/rubidium/newgrf_debug.hg/
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19:10<fjb>eGRVS horse carriages have some trouble with realistic acceleration for road vehicles.
19:11<Terkhen>IIRC they have a TE or power of zero
19:14<Eddi|zuHause>wasn't that solved?
19:15<@Rubidium>depends on the exact cause; if the NewGRF defines it to be 0 vs the NewGRF doesn't define it
19:16<fjb>I just see them crawl at 1km per hour.
19:17<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: then talk to the author
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19:59<Terkhen>good night
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20:48<ccfreak2k>Rubidium, wouldn't they have a tractive effort of like...two?
20:53<Eddi|zuHause>no, tractive effort does not work that way
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---Logclosed Sat Apr 24 00:00:07 2010