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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-04-24

---Logopened Sat Apr 24 00:00:07 2010
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03:30<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19702 /trunk/src/table/strgen_tables.h: -Add: {HEX} to strgen
03:32<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19703 /trunk/src/ (string.cpp string_type.h): -Add: hexadecimal string filter
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04:16<Terkhen>good morning
04:20<planetmaker>moin
04:21<planetmaker>Terkhen: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=873357#p873357 <-- I think that those sets simply don't offer refit options in that way
04:21<planetmaker>thus "No Support" is... no support on the side of those sets wrt refit.
04:23<Terkhen>I think that's what he means, but IIRC 2cc had some kind of refitting support
04:28<planetmaker>hm... IIRC not. It uses MUs and livery override and cargo refit for certain wagons. So... no and yes
04:30<Terkhen>I'm very interested in feedback about that case (trains with refittable engine and wagons)
04:31<Terkhen>I bet something strange will happen in some cases
04:31<planetmaker>:-)
04:34<planetmaker>let's give it a quick look at...
04:34<planetmaker>... uh... full re-compile :S
04:37<planetmaker>and I should switch back to gcc 4.2 from 4.0 as is current default...
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04:42<planetmaker>Terkhen: do I need to activate that GUI?
04:42<Terkhen>no, it is active by default
04:42<planetmaker>hm...
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04:46<planetmaker>ah. It only becomes effective, if something offers sub-types
04:46<planetmaker>Yes, then 2cctrainset will not show the new GUI
04:48<planetmaker>oh, Terkhen your channel topic is out-of date :-)
04:48<planetmaker>-RC1
04:54<andythenorth>hi hi
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04:55<Terkhen>planetmaker: I don't know how to change it :P
04:55<Terkhen>hi andythenorth
04:56<planetmaker>Terkhen: if you got Dorpsgek access: @topic change 1 s/RC1/RC2/
04:56<andythenorth>oh those crazy BROS people :P
04:56<andythenorth>they drive me nuts
04:56<andythenorth>it's like they all wilfully fuck up their set
04:57<planetmaker>:-)
04:57*andythenorth is also bothered by capacity vs size in different sets
04:57<planetmaker>andythenorth: they simply miss a person as dedicated as you :-)
04:57<andythenorth>but will have to live with it
04:58<planetmaker>But then... people who code and draw - those are rare
04:59<andythenorth>by contrast, the world is over-supplied with people who can argue on forums :|
04:59<andythenorth>we should find a way to generate electricity from forum arguments
05:00<Terkhen>arguing is easier :)
05:00-!-peter1138 changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.0.0, 1.0.1-RC2 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | Full English Breakfast only | Don't ask to ask, just ask
05:00<@peter1138>(/topic <tab> <edit it>)
05:01<@peter1138>oh, but it needs ops, hehe
05:01<planetmaker>I guess it needs an IRC client which supports the tab completion in that case
05:02<andythenorth>Terkhen: the 'no support' report for your patch - maybe it's an 'empty state design' GUI problem
05:02<andythenorth>you might need to show a greyed out right hand side bar
05:02<planetmaker>no sub-types available, then it doesn't show
05:02<andythenorth>otherwise stuff is changing to the player without any obvious causal reason.
05:02<planetmaker>^ that'd be nicer, yes
05:03<andythenorth>making the player construct a mental model of what the software is doing == evil
05:03*andythenorth has gone a bit nuts trying to solve 'what is the game doing' with FIRS texts :P
05:05<Terkhen>hmmm... I thought that marking cargos that can split with (X subtypes) would be enough for that
05:06<planetmaker>andythenorth: http://hg.openttd.org/developers/rubidium/newgrf_debug.hg/ <-- you might want to checkout that repo :-)
05:06<andythenorth>ooohh
05:08<planetmaker>andythenorth: you might want to configure your bouncer such that it saves the last <whatever> lines spoken in a channel
05:08<planetmaker>Then you'll get the highlights in your absense.
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05:08*andythenorth doesn't understand the bouncer at all
05:08<andythenorth>:D
05:09<Terkhen><andythenorth> you might need to show a greyed out right hand side bar <--- what do you mean with "right hand side bar"?
05:09<andythenorth>sorry, right hand side panel
05:09<andythenorth>right hand side panel with empty list, optionally with a 'no refits available' string
05:10<andythenorth>it's technically a waste of pixels, but it will remove doubt in the players mind
05:11<planetmaker>I'm with andy there
05:12<planetmaker>or, alternatively, a button(?) with show/hide sub types
05:12<Terkhen>it would simplify the code a lot, too... oh well, I was sure that clearly indicating the number of subtypes would be enough
05:13<Terkhen>if there is a button, people will get confused when they try a vehicle with cargo subtypes for the first time (the refit button does not work!)
05:13<planetmaker>well. But it is not, if there's no sub-type
05:13<andythenorth>GUIs are never perfect
05:13<planetmaker>and then one wonders what's the difference when it's not shown :-)
05:14<andythenorth>hmmm
05:14<andythenorth>players seem to ask a lot about 'why is the ship button greyed out in 1920?' etc.
05:14<andythenorth>or is it the building tools they ask about?
05:14*andythenorth forgets
05:15<Alberth>maybe someone should write a patch that you cannot start at an earlier year than when the first vehicle is available.
05:16<Terkhen>a player that has been playing a lot without subtypes will end up ignoring the button and will not remember it when he needs it... showing the right part of the window greyed out will confuse or annoy people when they are refitting to cargos without subtypes (that wasted space would annoy me for sure)
05:18<planetmaker>Alberth: poor *someone*... Always doing the slave labour :-(
05:19<Alberth>he is very lazy, I have yet to see anything finished by him ;)
05:20<planetmaker>Terkhen: proposal: Make the options visible the same way as waiting cargo which comes from different origins (with a + which will add the additional lines)
05:20<planetmaker>So no + if there is no option. And a + to allow showing the different options when available
05:21<planetmaker>or similar to the adv. setting (which is the same concept)
05:21<andythenorth> /me is going to slightly contravene copyright in a GPL project and isn't going to say where
05:21<planetmaker>hu?
05:21<andythenorth>because life is short, and there are only so many ways to arrange pixels
05:26<Prof_Frink>
05:31<@peter1138>you shouldn't even have said that...
05:34<Terkhen>planetmaker: I agree, that would look nicer
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05:34<Terkhen>it would turn this into a longer project, though
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05:34<planetmaker>hehe. Life is a heartless bitch, I know
05:34<Terkhen>:P
05:35<@Rubidium>planetmaker: I guess I shouldn't highlight andythenorth anymore if he can't read it anyway :)
05:35<planetmaker>:-)
05:35<planetmaker>I was happy to relay it, though
05:35*andythenorth should figure out the bouncer
05:35<andythenorth>I get an annoying 'you have messages' message every time I login, but no way of reading them :P
05:36<andythenorth>probably RTFM
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05:37*andythenorth ponders hovercraft propellors
05:37<andythenorth>(A) how to draw (B) animation?
05:37<Eddi|zuHause>ships with helicopter rotors ;=)
05:38<andythenorth>we could then store a second cargo in the rotor sprite?
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05:41<__ln__>that could damage fragile cargo
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05:44<andythenorth> /me ends up not violating copyright :P
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05:44<andythenorth>my /me is broken :o
05:45<planetmaker>you're to liberal with spaces
05:45<planetmaker>"/" != " /"
05:45<Alberth>'mail' ?
05:45<Alberth>andythenorth: ^
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05:45<andythenorth>well I have plenty of spaces to spare
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05:45<andythenorth>mail
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05:46<Alberth>if you have messages at a terminal
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05:49<OwenS>Hmm interesting... looks like Galapagos went down
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05:53<andythenorth>funny how many lighting 'mistakes' there are in the default sprites
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06:01<planetmaker>He... the German army should re-consider their ads: "Looking for a secure job? Come on in!" is not quite appropriate considering the current body count from Afghanistan...
06:01<@Rubidium>planetmaker: did they lose their job?
06:01<planetmaker>In a certain way, yes
06:01<@Rubidium>secure != safe
06:02<planetmaker>Well. I could also translate "save".
06:02<planetmaker>It's the same German word
06:02<planetmaker>"Du suchst einen sicheren Arbeitsplatz? Komm doch mal rein."
06:02<planetmaker>sicher = safe, secure
06:04<__ln__>Do you get to Afghanistan without volunteering?
06:04<@Rubidium>true, though the safe in this context is more towards the secure than towards the no-injuries part
06:05<andythenorth>planetmaker: I was thinking about town growth cargos & newgrf. Would be useful if growth could depend on both cargo delivered and cargo transported
06:06<planetmaker>__ln__: if you go to the army for anything else then the compulsory service: then you could in principle be forced to go. Dunno if they do.
06:06<planetmaker>Rubidium: sure it's meant in the "secure" way, but still ;-)
06:06<planetmaker>andythenorth: the latter doesn't seem possible IIRC.
06:07<planetmaker>only the amount of serviced station matters. So in a way it is already considered.
06:07<planetmaker>but cannot be influenced by newgrfs
06:08<andythenorth>it could be patched for. The town growth code looks...not simple....but understandable
06:08<andythenorth>planetmaker: perhaps it's time to venture to C++ again
06:09<planetmaker>hm...
06:10*andythenorth is currently in a world of pixels though. Lots of nice ship renders arrived for painting
06:10<planetmaker>:-)
06:11<planetmaker>I have the feeling that adding "just another way to manipulate town growth" would not quite do. It would need re-thinking the concept and making it such that it could be accessed and extended
06:11<andythenorth>maybe
06:11<planetmaker>But I haven't dived deeply into it, so I may be wrong
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06:12<andythenorth>for me this is driven by the need for Food to be useful in Temperate + also a bit more of an interesting challenge
06:12<andythenorth>but I think maybe it needs more thought about gameplay
06:12<andythenorth>why care if cities grow or not?
06:12<planetmaker>more passengers -> more revenue
06:12<planetmaker>and big(est) city can be a challange :-)
06:14<andythenorth>I keep thinking about a goals framework
06:15<andythenorth>adding arbitrary newgrf control of stuff here and there might be quite fragemented
06:15<andythenorth>it would be nice to design out some kind of framework concept
06:16<Terkhen>IMO a goal framework would work best if implemented by scripts (something like NoAI)
06:16<Terkhen>but probably it would need some kind of newgrf support too
06:16<andythenorth>from what I've seen of NoAI that makes sense
06:16<Eddi|zuHause>you need to associate a script with a scenario
06:17<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I'm not sure. Do you suggest that for gameplay reasons, or for the implementation?
06:18<Terkhen>some scripts could be generic enough to be used in any map, others would have to check the current map and disable themselves if they can't work in that map
06:18<planetmaker>Goals similarly accessed as NoAI seems like a sane concept to me.
06:18<Terkhen>others (referencing specific towns and industries) would need an specific scenario
06:18<andythenorth>yes
06:19<planetmaker>yup
06:19<andythenorth>but 'grow a random town to xx inhabitants' wouldn't
06:19<andythenorth>what goals would be fun?
06:19<Eddi|zuHause>basically these scripts should be an extension/replacement to the current subsidy system
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06:20<Terkhen>probably goals that we already set in our games :)
06:20<planetmaker>town size, transported cargo (per town, global), station ratings, ... average, minimum, maximum vehicle income
06:21<planetmaker>number of connected towns, industries (per type, global), number of transported goods and types thereof
06:21<planetmaker>use of certain vehicle(s) at a certain date, at a certain place
06:21<andythenorth>http://paste.openttd.org/225711
06:21<andythenorth>Hmmm
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06:22<andythenorth>seems like a forum thread might actually be better for discussing this
06:22<andythenorth>IRC is going to suck
06:22<planetmaker>it's not archiv-able
06:22<andythenorth>I'll start a thread. We can ignore the dumb suggestions
06:23<andythenorth>Suggestions forum or Dev forum?
06:23<Terkhen>for this topic there will be a lot
06:24<planetmaker>scenario scripting would also allow for scriptable local authority sensitiviy for certain actions
06:24<Terkhen>suggestions
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06:25<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly sure there are plenty of these threads already
06:25<Eddi|zuHause>so unless you have a good outline of your suggestion, i don't think opening a thread will help anyone
06:25<andythenorth>I need a list of plausible goals before I can do the outline, and copy-paste from IRC == suck
06:26<andythenorth>Wiki?
06:26<Terkhen>a wiki page?
06:27*andythenorth has to learn how a wiki works :P
06:27<Eddi|zuHause>well, imho the first milestone would be to mimic the current subsidies
06:28<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. "bring at least one cargo from A to B"
06:28<andythenorth>frick, how do I add a page to a wiki?
06:28<andythenorth>RTFM
06:29<Eddi|zuHause>just type the page name you want to create into the url
06:29<Eddi|zuHause>then it'll ask you to create the page
06:29<Eddi|zuHause>alternately, create a wiki link from another page, then click on that
06:30<andythenorth>wikis are bonkers
06:30<Eddi|zuHause>what's not bonkers?
06:32<andythenorth>hmmm....no newline conversion bah
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06:34<andythenorth>http://wiki.openttd.org/Requested_features/Gameplay_Goals_Framework
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06:36<Terkhen>one of the most frequent requests is to make something happen when some conditions are met
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06:37<andythenorth>Like a message, or an end screen? Or some other game event - like make a new vehicle available?
06:38<Terkhen>I was referring to in game events, yes
06:39<andythenorth>what sort of events? Town growth? Industry open / close?
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06:39<Terkhen>things like that, yes
06:41<andythenorth>we should probably add those to the wiki too then?
06:43<Terkhen>I'm not sure how feasible it is... the script can't check everything
06:43<andythenorth>I'd be worried about conflicts with newgrf
06:43<Terkhen>with that kind of things, you expect an inmediate response
06:44<andythenorth>so much is controllable by newgrf that I think we could drown in complexity
06:45*andythenorth thinks about the existing performance ratings
06:45<andythenorth>they would need to go
06:45<Terkhen>Indeed, I think that everything that sounds like it should be controlled by newgrf should be left out of the goal scripts
06:45<Terkhen>(even if it can't)
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06:48<andythenorth>do we know the length of a player's routes?
06:48<Terkhen>I don't think so
06:49<andythenorth>we have number of tiles I assume (for the property maintenance calculation)?
06:49<andythenorth>player tiles that is
06:49<Terkhen>IIRC it counts the number of stations or station tiles, but I'm not sure
06:49<andythenorth>do we know average speeds?
06:49<andythenorth>probably not
06:50<planetmaker>nope
06:50<Terkhen>no
06:50<andythenorth>revenue per ton / mile .....nope :P
06:50<andythenorth>planetmaker: I've added your suggestions: http://wiki.openttd.org/Requested_features/Gameplay_Goals_Framework
06:50<planetmaker>thanks
06:53<planetmaker>I added two more generic events
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06:54<@Rubidium>Terkhen: station facilities
06:54*andythenorth compiles
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06:55<sulai>hi there =)
06:55<Terkhen>hi sulai
06:56<planetmaker>hi sulai
06:56<sulai>I just freshly checked out r19530, which is ottd 1.0.0
06:56<sulai>But on title screen, it shows r19527. Strange isn't it?
06:56<planetmaker>only the svn tag is 1.0.0
06:56<@Rubidium>then you didn't checkout 1.0.0, but trunk at that revision
06:56<KenjiE20>did you check out trun.... ^
06:57<planetmaker>:-D
06:57*andythenorth improves the appearance of hovercraft renders, and no copyright was violated :D
06:57<sulai>yeah thats true, thank you ^^
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06:58<sulai>how are you doing planetmaker
06:58<sulai>you seem to be a true long-term ottd addict ;)
06:58<planetmaker>:-D
06:58<planetmaker>fine thanks. How're you?
06:58<planetmaker>you left :-(
06:59<sulai>well I come back regulary :D
06:59<planetmaker>:-)
07:00<sulai>I think about refreshing Gremnons patch pack. He changed his sets of patches a lot and I think the earlier ones were better :)
07:00<planetmaker>better go for an entirely new one :-)
07:00<planetmaker>I haven't seen a PP for quite some time, though. At least not much fuss about PPs recently
07:01<planetmaker>but then... mostly not much need :-)
07:02<planetmaker>I'd "need" station_gui, newgrf_gui and sort_signs.
07:02<sulai>true...gremnons patch pack thread is sleeping since a month or so
07:02<planetmaker>only?
07:03<andythenorth>Rubidium: the debug stuff is pretty awesome
07:04<sulai>hm we'll see how far my patch pack plans get... :)
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07:04<sulai>hm how do I update my existing svn location to a tag without doing a new check out?
07:05<@Rubidium>svn help switch
07:05<andythenorth>Rubidium: I've never coded stations....but it looks like the debug would be extremely helpful to station coders as well :)
07:05<andythenorth>Rubidium: anything I can do to help with it?
07:06<@Rubidium>andythenorth: try land area information
07:06<andythenorth>try using it, or coding it?
07:06<@Rubidium>build a NewGRF station/house/...
07:07<@Rubidium>and get the "land area information" about that; you'll see the bug icon there too
07:07<andythenorth>I was using that already ;)
07:07<@Rubidium>this is because station NewGRFs are tile based
07:07<andythenorth>that's how I found the station stuff
07:07<@Rubidium>same you can get industry tiles, house tiles, railtype
07:08<andythenorth>the only improvement I can think of right now is escapes for some values
07:08<andythenorth>otherwise it's pretty outstanding
07:09<andythenorth>ha ha, you've even done vehicles :)
07:09<andythenorth>that's a big win
07:09<@Rubidium>andythenorth: escapes in what sense?
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07:09<andythenorth>hmm, escapes is probably the wrong term here
07:10<andythenorth>for example, dates - convert the hex value to date format
07:10<@Rubidium>hmm, that might be technically possible
07:11<andythenorth>and possibly format variable number / value in different colours...
07:11<andythenorth>...but sometimes that can look worse than all one colour
07:11<@Rubidium>that's (currently) quite hard as it uses lots of hardcoded strings
07:12<andythenorth>nvm
07:12<@Rubidium>anyhow, I seem to remember that there are some results that put like cargo type and more bits into a varaction2 variable which makes "pretty printing" it harder
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07:14<andythenorth>apart from date format, I see no other improvements needed. Maybe see what Pikka, George etc make of it?
07:15<andythenorth>From an industry point of view, if I need more debug info I'll push values into persistent storage
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07:17<andythenorth>this is going to sound obsessive, but do we like the colour used for the decks of FISH ships?
07:18<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=121009
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07:19<Alberth>I'd use different colours for the parts where people walk and the parts that are just covers for the cargo
07:19-!-sulai_ is now known as sulai
07:20<Alberth>then you don't get so much yellow-ish colour with the freight ships
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07:29<andythenorth>Alberth: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/ships_alternative_1.png
07:29<andythenorth>I have a few other ideas for this
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07:33<Alberth>I like that
07:35<__ln__>can it carry vehicles?
07:37<andythenorth>no
07:38*andythenorth ponders a 2CC version of the hatch covers
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>i was missing a passenger ferry between the utility vessel and the small vehicle ferry
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07:42<andythenorth>there are more ships being worked on :)
07:42*andythenorth wonders: improve sprites for current ships, or draw new ones?
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07:46<Alberth>decisions, decisions...
07:47<andythenorth>draw new ones of course :)
07:47<Terkhen>both!
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07:47<andythenorth>meh
07:49<Terkhen>if not, draw new ones :P
07:50<__ln__>andythenorth: don't you think a vehicle ferry that can't carry vehicles is a little like oil tanker that can't carry oil?
07:51<andythenorth>__ln__: 'vehicles' isn't a cargo in any of the industry chains I use :P
07:53<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19704 /trunk/src/ (ai/api/ai_rail.cpp newgrf.cpp newgrf.h table/pricebase.h): -Codechange: unify the style of GSF enums; now they're plural instead of mixed
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08:37*andythenorth hates pixels
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08:39<planetmaker>use voxels!
08:39<@peter1138>urgh
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08:53<Juicy>wow
08:54<Juicy>theres really alot of ppl in here
08:55-!-Juicy [lol@0x573b6722.fsnqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit []
08:55<nighthawk_c_m>^^ yepp
08:55<TrueBrain>LOL!
08:55<TrueBrain>really?!
08:55<TrueBrain>how often do you join a channel to say just that :p
08:55<@Rubidium>;)
08:56<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: once?
09:00<TrueBrain>lol @ Rubidium
09:00<TrueBrain>you are crazy :p
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09:22<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19705 /trunk/src/ (settings.cpp table/settings.h): -Change: reinitialise the windows when changing the newgrf_developer_tools setting
09:27<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19706 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Add: support for the (NewGRF) debug box
09:35<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19707 /trunk/src/ (7 files): -Add: helper functions to instantiate/fill ResolverObjects
09:36<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19708 /trunk/ (9 files in 5 dirs): -Add: NewGRF "debugging" window and data tables; should be a useful tool for NewGRF developers to get some insights into the value of some variables
09:39<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19709 /trunk/src/ (8 files): -Feature: NewGRF debugging/inspecting of (primarily) enabled callbacks and values of variables
09:41*andythenorth ponders svn up
09:47*andythenorth decides painting hovercraft sucks
09:53<Prof_Frink>Rubidium: r20k before the end of the month?
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10:09<andythenorth>hmm
10:09<andythenorth>sprites for a load of containers....2CC?
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10:26*andythenorth plans a set that is entirely made up of hopper cars. Easy to draw :P
10:26<Terkhen>is that much work?
10:26<Terkhen>(2CC containers)
10:27<andythenorth>containers are easy. Hovercraft are not. Even though it's mostly a flat deck with one cabin
10:27<andythenorth>+ propellors and rudders + stuff :P
10:28<Terkhen>then I think that it will be a nice touch
10:29<andythenorth>I have several angles complete http://tt-foundry.com/misc/freight_hovercraft_WIP.png
10:29<CIA-6>OpenTTD: smatz * r19710 /trunk/src/ (depot_gui.cpp vehicle_gui.cpp vehicle_gui.h): -Codechange: deduplicate GUI code for starting/stopping vehicles
10:30<andythenorth>all the greeble on the deck is a pisser to draw: http://www.ahv.lynden.com/ahv/lacv-30.html
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10:49<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see why containers should be company colours
10:55<andythenorth>what colour would you prefer?
10:57<Terkhen>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/ships_alternative_1.png <-- I like this one, perhaps less dark
11:01<Terkhen>http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/screenshots/speed_graphs/ <-- here is the other experiment: double click in a vehicle at the engine list to show a graph for that engine
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11:02<andythenorth>Terkhen: those graphs look complicated but useful
11:02<andythenorth>and also cool :)
11:03*andythenorth has 1.5 more angles to paint
11:03<Terkhen>they are an "advanced" feature, yes
11:04<amalloy1>spectating an online game i saw this station design: http://malloys.org/~akm/train.png - it looks to me like the two path signals closest to the station are ruining the pathing idea; am i right or is there something i don't get yet?
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11:04<amalloy1>(i ask cause i'm surprised that someone who builds such a neat junction would get the station wrong like that)
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11:07<Alberth>you may be right, the easiest way to check is to build it yourself and do a small test.
11:07<Alberth>on the other hand, if you remove those signals, a train would stop at the outer signals
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11:08<amalloy1>yeah, which i thought was the point - stop before committing yourself to a platform since you don't know which will free up first
11:08<amalloy1>but you're right, i can just test it
11:08<SmatZ>that X is bad :-p
11:09<Alberth>normally, you'd make a platform selection closer to the station
11:10<Alberth>then you also don't need those bridges, which would make it a nicer solution imho
11:11<amalloy1>i'll take your word for it: i can't really visualize hypothetical stations yet
11:12<Alberth>if you move the X between the bridge and the station, there is nothing left under the bridge, and they can be eliminated.
11:14<Alberth>hmm, the signals right next to the platform are also not needed.
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11:14<OwenS>Alberth: removing them means you're relying on PBS' anti-train-crash protection
11:15<OwenS>People stil build with such tight corners? :(
11:15*Alberth does :)
11:15<Alberth>OwenS: but you rely on that anyway at all other PBS blocks
11:16<OwenS>Alberth: No you don't. The anti crash protection only comes into play at a) stations without signals b) train reversals
11:16<OwenS>1 tile corners are ugly and slow :(
11:16<amalloy1>yeah, the closest signals aren't needed but aren't really a liability. and they're insurance against user error: if i had a nickel for every time i removed a signal and caused a train crash seconds afterwards...
11:16<@peter1138>i just think it looks better with them :)
11:17<Alberth>amalloy1: you should wait until all trains have passed :)
11:18<amalloy1>yeah, i know. i'm usually planning to just "move" the signal or something and i forget. like i said: user error *chuckle*
11:18<amalloy1>speaking of crashes, i'm watching this guy's trains blow up about six of his trucks at a different station. so i think i'll avoid taking lessons from him
11:20<Alberth>OwenS: is this anti-crash protection described somewhere?
11:21<Alberth>amalloy1: I often stop a train at a previous block first
11:22<amalloy1>man, how do i keep ending up with amalloy1? i don't know a lot about irc and i tell my client to make my amalloy but it silently adds a 1. is there a name conflict somewhere?
11:22<OwenS>Alberth: probably inside the YaPP code ;-)
11:22<OwenS>[16:22] [Error] amalloy: No such nick/channel.
11:23<SmatZ>OwenS: he can be hidden
11:23<OwenS>SmatZ: aah true
11:23<amalloy1>it would be weird, though. it's not a very common last name
11:23<amalloy1>and none of my relatives play ottd :P
11:23<OwenS>Not just OTTD
11:23<OwenS>Lots of projects on OFTC
11:23<KenjiE20>oftc is way bigger than that
11:23<OwenS>What happens if you try "/nick amalloy" now
11:24-!-amalloy1 is now known as amalloy
11:24<amalloy>it works, apparently
11:24<OwenS>No complaints from Nickserv?
11:24<KenjiE20>well, see if you got any evil notices from ^
11:24<amalloy>nope
11:24<KenjiE20>it's unregistered too
11:24<KenjiE20>I suggest you register it now
11:25<Alberth>OwenS: that is on my 'still to read' list :)
11:25<amalloy>how do i do that?
11:25<KenjiE20>/msg nickserv help
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11:29<amalloy>well i succeeded in registering the name, but pidgin (my client) seems not to send the password right, even though it has a password field; i had to msg nickserv manually
11:30<Alberth>correct, you have to do that in another way
11:31<KenjiE20>that'll be the server password
11:31<Alberth>yes, and you don't want it there.
11:31<amalloy>ah
11:31<KenjiE20>unless you're on freenode
11:31<KenjiE20>:P
11:32<KenjiE20>not sure if pidgin has a way to autosend
11:32<KenjiE20>it's IRC isn't the best
11:32<amalloy>well i'm reading up on some irc wiki
11:32<amalloy>so i'll see
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11:38<Alberth>amalloy: http://developer.pidgin.im/wiki/Protocol%20Specific%20Questions#IsthereawaytomakePidginautomaticallyidentifymeonlogin
11:39<amalloy>yeah, i found something similar
11:39<amalloy>working on it, thanks
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11:41<amalloy>aha! all set. thanks lots
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12:23<Zwoep>started company in 1990 and had a range of like 6 or 7 types of engines to choose from. now its 2050 and i only got the SH40 left
12:23<Zwoep>http://i40.tinypic.com/21mrngz.jpg
12:23<Zwoep>is that normal?
12:24<SmatZ>yes, if you didn't enable "Vehicles never expire" setting
12:24<Zwoep>ic
12:25<Zwoep>thnx
12:29<Eddi|zuHause>Zwoep: you're supposed to build maglevs at that time
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12:33<james>I need some help...
12:33-!-james is now known as Guest1142
12:34<Guest1142>I need some code to loop through all the elements in a vector, check each item to see if it is correct, and if no correct item is found, create a new one
12:39<Alberth>sure you are asking this in the right channel?
12:39<SmatZ>james is always asking here C++ related questions
12:39<Guest1142>I'm modifying OpenTTD code
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12:43<Alberth>usually the best way to find out how something is used, is to find a use in the existing code
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12:48*OwenS wishes road vehicles didn't have to slow down for corners
12:49<@peter1138>without diagonal roads, there can be no road curve radius...
12:49<OwenS>How is RV curve speed determined at the moment?
12:49<OwenS>Hardcoded or NewGRF?
12:50<Terkhen>hardcoded, with both original and realistic acceleration
12:50<OwenS>Seems like a notable omission from the NewGRF system...
12:53*andythenorth doesn't want to set RV curve speeds
12:53<OwenS>Nobody said the hardcoded behaviour had to go away
12:54<OwenS>But, for example, one would expect some trams to be better at doing curves than others
12:54<andythenorth>:)
12:56<OwenS>Hmm... Trams appear to not have tractive effort eitehr :s
12:57<Terkhen>what set?
12:57<OwenS>Japanese. I presume its a new-ish feature?
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12:58<Terkhen>yes, some sets still don't support it completely
12:58<@peter1138>ish
12:58<OwenS>Shame, because fast trams shouldn't have to slow down to clime slopes :p
12:58<@peter1138>"realistic" rv acceleration predates trams
12:58*andythenorth thought trams did have tractive effort?
12:59<OwenS>Presumably they haven't added it/designed for TTDP(? on the latter)
12:59<Terkhen>rvs and trams without a TE value use the default value, though
12:59*peter1138 climbs OwenS' clime
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13:00<OwenS>whoops
13:00<OwenS>I'm tempted to replace this bridge with a canal...
13:00<@peter1138>waterways need to be cheaper
13:00<@peter1138>hmm, is there a newgrf that'll do that...
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13:13<andythenorth>meh, unfinished angles :P
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13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19711 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: catalan - 24 changes by arnau
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: french - 9 changes by glx
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: korean - 2 changes by junho2813
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: maltese - 69 changes by peter88823
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: polish - 7 changes by xine
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13:48<Eddi|zuHause>wow... peter aged a lot :p
13:48<Alberth>this is his elder twin brother :p
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>twin brothers tend to be not much older than a couple minutes :p
13:49<@peter1138>hurr
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>i'm bored, i need a new game...
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13:50<Prof_Frink>Global thermonuclear war?
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>i said a _new_ game :p
13:51<@peter1138>closedttd
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>i'm through most of the old games that i have
13:51<@peter1138>bbc basic assembler
13:51<@peter1138>good game that
13:52<ashb>http://www.introversion.co.uk/defcon/index.html <-- Global thermonuclear war ;)
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13:58<Alberth>peter1138: I played that one too, it was good fun
14:00<Devroush><Eddi|zuHause> i'm through most of the old games that i have > rollercoaster tycoon!
14:01*andythenorth ponders whether hovercraft should show 'spray' whilst loading
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14:04*andythenorth ponders hovercraft 'fuel cost' factor vs. normal ships
14:04<andythenorth>three turbines vs one diesel piston engine
14:04<andythenorth>I reckon...3
14:11<OwenS>andythenorth: A turbine consumes more fuel than a piston engine
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14:15*andythenorth wonders if a hovercraft should also be obscenely expensive to buy
14:16<andythenorth>probably not
14:16<OwenS>andythenorth: IRL the running cost is at least doubled per engine
14:16<OwenS>And they are also obscenely expensive to buy ;-)
14:16<OwenS>On the basis that most TTD players are rolling in money... is cost a big issue? :p
14:17<andythenorth>probably not
14:17*andythenorth compares hovercraft to AV8 helicopter costs
14:17<andythenorth>and decides to increase hovercraft cost :P
14:20<OwenS>Its kind of ironic as jet engines are actually pretty efficient :p
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14:24<Eddi|zuHause>ships should be cheap because they are so slow, hovercraft kinda circumvent the slowness, thus should be properly expensive
14:24<OwenS>Shame OpenTTD doesn't support more realistically scaled ships
14:24-!-Absolutis [~Absolutis@dsl-tlubrasgw1-fe87de00-63.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd
14:24<OwenS>Then we could have them be the huge behmoths they should be
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>"err:seh:setup_exception_record stack overflow 1608 bytes in thread 002d eip 7edd71ae esp 00240ce8 stack 0x240000-0x241000-0x340000" <-- that doesn't sound right...
14:25<@peter1138>huge cargo just doesn't work
14:25<OwenS>why?
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14:25<@peter1138>not enough cargo
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14:25<OwenS>Depends what the ship is transporting
14:25<@peter1138>there's a newgrf which changes capacties to be more 'realistic'
14:25<OwenS>If its transporting from multiple industries it works..
14:26<@peter1138>the ships just sit there for ever
14:26<andythenorth>I could use some 2,000t ships right now
14:26<@peter1138>also
14:26<andythenorth>FISH maxes out at 1,080t
14:26<@peter1138>you should then be able to mix cargo types
14:26<OwenS>That is true
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: you don't service one mine with 100 trains, why should you service one oil rig with a 100-train-capacity ship?
14:26<@peter1138>except on oil tankers :)
14:26<andythenorth>and we're back to articulated ships :P
14:26<OwenS>No need for articulation
14:26<andythenorth>might as well
14:26<@peter1138>just hidden parts
14:26<andythenorth>it would be useful
14:26<OwenS>Just a way to make them stay away from shores
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>no, we need a "container" vehicle type
14:27<@peter1138>like bellyflopters
14:27<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: You shouldn't. Unfortunately, OpenTTD doesn't model undersea pipelines :p
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>a ship takes containers, no matter what's in them
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: pipelines don't make any sense in openttd
14:28*andythenorth now has hovercraft that cost 7x more to run than the equivalent size ship, and 5x as much to buy
14:28<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, get patching :D
14:28<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: Thats true. Therefore, large oil tankers won't work
14:28<andythenorth>and the hovercraft are 3x as fast :P
14:28<OwenS>Unless one was to drop all the oil from other stations off at an oil rig
14:39<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19712 /trunk/src/table/newgrf_debug_data.h: -Fix (r19708): if the parent was a town, the parent wasn't shown
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15:07<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19713 /trunk/src/newgrf_industries.cpp: -Fix [NewGRF]: passing some invalid data to industry variable 67/68 could cause a crash
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15:29*andythenorth doesn't understand why running costs change in FISH. I set them correctly, then I play the game some time later and find they are incorrect. Inflation is *off*
15:30<andythenorth>no other grfs are loaded :|
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15:38<andythenorth>meh
15:40-!-temoto [~temoto@89-178-22-228.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
15:40<temoto>Hello.
15:40<Terkhen>hello temoto
15:40<temoto>What's fastest way to grow a city?
15:40<temoto>(including cheats and console commands)
15:40<@Rubidium>the scenario editor
15:41<KenjiE20>^
15:41<temoto>uhh scenario editor can edit saved games?
15:41<temoto>I want to grow few cities in my current game, not in new one.
15:42<+glx>just put a bus network in the town
15:42<andythenorth>setting vehicle costs is annoying :\
15:44<temoto>glx, one passenger train station in town is not enough? (with lots of incoming passengers)
15:47*andythenorth wonders about a nice sound effect for hovercraft
15:48<temoto>Is 'fund new buildings' idempotent?
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16:02<Eddi|zuHause>temoto: my educated guess would be: not entirely, using it twice won't double the effect, but the second time will reset the timer until it runs out
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>but that might not be what the code actually does
16:04*andythenorth needs some names for hovecraft
16:04<andythenorth>or hovercraft even
16:04<Terkhen>generic names?
16:05<Terkhen>or "Somecompanyname Hovercraft"?
16:05-!-a1270 [~Cheese@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Quit: a1270]
16:06<andythenorth>I'm feeling like using the names of rivers for the hovercaft
16:07<temoto>Eddi|zuHause, thank you.
16:08<temoto>Eddi|zuHause, what timer?
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>temoto: "fund new buildings" makes city growth speed up for a while
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>like a month or so... not sure
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>you see whether it is active at the amount of pavements on your roads
16:14<temoto>thanks
16:16<andythenorth>when a ship has a higher top speed unloaded than loaded....should I set 'max speed' to the lower or higher speed?
16:16<andythenorth>from a player point of view
16:18<temoto>btw, openttd devs, thank you so much, this game is fantastic.
16:19<+glx>andythenorth: I'd say the important speed for the player is the full loaded
16:19<andythenorth>I think so. Otherwise I get bug reports saying "the top speed is wrong" :P
16:20<+glx>you'll still get them ;)
16:20<Turgid>andythenorth, I'd prefer the max speed to say the unloaded speed, personally.
16:20<Terkhen>I agree with glx
16:21<Turgid>Or maybe have it split like 70/50 or whathaveyou
16:21<frosch123>for ais you should use some weighted mean, so it gives the average speed for both directions
16:22<andythenorth>bah
16:23<andythenorth>it's all too complicated :P
16:23<Alberth>andythenorth: what about programming black 'censured' boxes in front of the speed ? :)
16:23<andythenorth>how about a patch to remove all strings?
16:23<andythenorth>in fact, can't we just delete all translation files, no patch needed?
16:24<Alberth>you may get lots of "undefined string" texts :)
16:24<Prof_Frink>Delete the "undefined string" string.
16:25*Alberth hopes that one is hard-coded
16:25<frosch123>andythenorth: var 43 could provide human/ai, so you can return different values
16:25<Alberth>perhaps better make all strings empty instead
16:25<frosch123>(though currently var 43 misses that info in purchase list...)
16:26<andythenorth>how about I finish the speed code and release this hovercraft? Then you guys can advise...
16:27<Alberth>good plan
16:28<Terkhen>:)
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>hm.. at a train length of 1,97m how many 26m/87 wagons do fit in?
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 26/87
16:32<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 0.298850574713
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 26/87*6
16:32<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 1.79310344828
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16:51<andythenorth>new FISH on Bananas
16:55<Prof_Frink>Fish and banana? An unusual combination.
16:56<CIA-6>OpenTTD: smatz * r19714 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 3 dirs): -Feature: ctrl+click on a vehicle to start/stop it
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17:03<CIA-6>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19715 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: Rename all appareances of shiplift to lock.
17:08<SpComb>more magical uses of Ctrl
17:09<andythenorth>quite the magic key that one
17:15<temoto>BTW does anyone maintains a MacOSX binary build?
17:15<+glx>no
17:16<+glx>at least not officially
17:16<andythenorth>but the OS X port currently compiles ok
17:16<+glx>but it lacks features
17:17<andythenorth>hmm...svn up fails for me right now.
17:17<andythenorth>svn: Can't connect to host 'svn.openttd.com': No route to host
17:17<+glx>it's .org
17:18*andythenorth wonders how *that* got changed :o
17:18<andythenorth>I don't screw with repo configs
17:18<+glx>it always was .org
17:18<andythenorth>yup, and it was working this morning
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>i vaguely remember some talk about a redirect
17:19<+glx>.com should work too
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17:19<+glx>but it's best to use .org
17:19*andythenorth wonders how to change an svn config
17:19<+glx>switch --relocate
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17:24<andythenorth>bah
17:24<andythenorth>I have a second checkout of OTTD. It uses svn.openttd.org and also fails
17:24<TrueBrain>.com in theory is an alias of .org, but yes, rather use .org
17:26*andythenorth wonders if this ISP is blocking svn
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>then your network is screwed up
17:26<andythenorth>"I'm not from round here"
17:26<andythenorth>might be the router. I'm a guest :P
17:27<andythenorth>ah screw it
17:27<andythenorth>hg works though, weird
17:28<andythenorth>good night
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>hg is tunneled through http?
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17:28<Eddi|zuHause>maybe it's some kind of proxy
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>gnah...
17:30<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: hg is always over http :)
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17:32<SmatZ>overhead ftw
17:33<SmatZ>well.. maybe it's not that serious overhead :)
17:33<TrueBrain>it is :p
17:33<SmatZ>hehe :)
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: well, that was a question...
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18:16<Ammler>[23:30] <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: hg is always over http  or direct file (ssh)
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>next time you quote someone, make clear which part is quoted and which one is not.
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18:22<temoto>This is a funny bug... after some time, 'D' demolish hotkey is ignored. [linux x86-64 from ubuntu lucid repo]
18:22<frosch123>maybe you have some editbox open
18:22<temoto>happens like 3rd time in a row. maybe after hour or two
18:23<PeterT>1.0.1-RC2 already?!
18:23<PeterT>O_o
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>temoto: "D" is caught by order windows, if one is open
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>and the landscape toolbar must be open for the "D" key to work
18:24<temoto>I didn't see any editboxes or order windows, but indeed, opening 'rename' on city and closing it, helped. Thanks for hints.
18:24<temoto>i used to restart before
18:28<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: next time you answer someone directly, make clear to highlight him :-P
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19:15<Terkhen>good night
19:16<PeterT>Good night Terkhen
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20:23<DrNo>hmmm openttd.org down`
20:23<DrNo>?
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20:39<Eddi|zuHause>the site itself works fine
20:39<Eddi|zuHause>maybe your provider has difficulties
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23:48<ashaw>Hello, I am wondering if anyone is here?
23:49<@Rubidium>@seen anyone
23:49<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: I have not seen anyone.
23:49<@Rubidium>no, no anyone is here
23:50<ashaw>ha ha ha.
23:51<ashaw>I have been thinking about signals and was wondering if the signaling system runs on passes or is event driven?
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23:55<ashaw>no reply?
23:56<@Rubidium>easy, oh impatient one
23:57<ashaw>sorry.
23:57<@Rubidium>don't even get time to check which one it is?
23:57<ashaw>sorry again.
23:58<@Rubidium>anyhow, it looks event driven
23:59<ashaw>I was wondering as it seems that the coop have found uses for a NOT gate.\
---Logclosed Sun Apr 25 00:00:04 2010