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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-04-25

---Logopened Sun Apr 25 00:00:04 2010
---Daychanged Sun Apr 25 2010
00:00<ashaw>and was thinking that a way to solve the problem of efficency was to have the gate only be able to change once every 10 ms or something similar.
00:03<ashaw>would that be difficult to implement
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00:08<ashaw>My idea is an anti-entry signal, that give the inverse of the output that an entry pre-signal would give. to stop locks, it will only change every 10 ms, if an event occurs that wants it to change, it will not change but rather schedule an event to occur in 10ms.
00:10<ashaw>what do you think?
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00:27<ashaw>no responce?
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01:14<planetmaker>ashaw: the idea of a not-signal is not new
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01:16<ashaw>I know that, I am only asking now as the general response was that it would only be added if there was a compelling reason for adding it.
01:16<ashaw>coop game 180 had over 800 of them, I think that comes close to a compelling reason.
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01:18<planetmaker>we had 800 not-gates? That's something I doubt ;-)
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01:18<ashaw>You had over 800 logic trains.
01:19<planetmaker>that doesn't mean 800 not-gates
01:19<ashaw>what does it mean?
01:19<ashaw>800 logic gates.
01:19<ashaw>that can be made much simpler with a not gate.
01:19<planetmaker>I don't know what it takes to build one. But one train doesn't suffice IIRC
01:19<ashaw>yes it does.
01:20<planetmaker>also not-gates are not the only use for logic trains
01:20<ashaw>not, or and logic gates.
01:20<ashaw>sorry-not logic.
01:22<planetmaker>Even if there were 800 not-gates, that's not sufficient to introduce really to OpenTTD.
01:23<planetmaker>IF, then OwenS' programmable signals or something along those lines is a way to go. Not just "yet another signal type"
01:23<ashaw>why not?
01:24<planetmaker>who would use it other than 50 people out of 100000?
01:24<ashaw>The way that they are being used, the programmable signal is overkill.
01:24<ashaw>probably many people.
01:25<ashaw>They are being used to improve load balancing, and others.
01:26<planetmaker>It doesn't make sense conceptionally to introduce another signal just for the sake of this. If signals are touched, it'll be a more generic solution.
01:26<planetmaker>If there's now a new not-signal, then next whoever comes with a xor signal
01:26<planetmaker>or alike
01:26<planetmaker>that doesn't make sense
01:26<planetmaker>So: either go for programmable signals which is more generic or don't do it.
01:27<planetmaker>And honestly: load balancing can be achieved without.
01:27<ashaw>you do not need an xor gate.
01:27<planetmaker>I'm well aware of that blog :-)
01:27<ashaw>also xor gates can be made easily with a not gate.
01:28<planetmaker>yes, but why build it, if it can be made directly? Same as goes for not-gates now?
01:29<ashaw>because, not gates are being implemented in a stop-gap method, that is really ugly.
01:30<planetmaker>Also: psg180 was not the first of our SNRW / logic games. Nor will it be the last.
01:30<ashaw>I know That.
01:31<planetmaker>But given the really limited use, it might not really be worth the additional effort which requires modification of all pathfinders and so on.
01:31<ashaw>I also know that.
01:31<planetmaker>Also the map array might not have really more space for those
01:32<ashaw>What about the new map array.
01:32<planetmaker>Or rather: that should be reserved space, those one(?) two(?) bits put to better use.
01:33<planetmaker>go right ahead proposing a re-write of the map array
01:33<planetmaker>just for the sake of not-signals
01:33<ashaw>I thought there was already a project in place
01:33<ashaw>and quite far along.
01:34<planetmaker>there's no intention I'm aware of that the map array is being re-written
01:34<planetmaker>except that one forum thread...
01:35<ashaw>Also, should it not be an ENUM rather than a bit mask
01:36<ashaw>and why would you need to change the pathfinders?
01:38<ashaw>there are currently 36 types of signal. this would take up 6 bits, the minimum is 8 bits.
01:38<ashaw>adding a new signal type should not need to change the map array.
01:40<planetmaker>4*3*2 + 2*2 are already there
01:40<planetmaker>@calc 4*3*2 + 2*2
01:40<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 28
01:41<planetmaker>actually 2*2*2. So 32
01:41<planetmaker>there surely are also semaphore path signals
01:42<planetmaker>and why do you think that the minimum is 8 bits?
01:42<ashaw>there are one way path signals.
01:42<ashaw>as you adress 1,2,4 or 8 bits to something.
01:43<ashaw>we have more than 4 bits, so we have 8
01:43<planetmaker>ok, signals already are an enum as it seems
01:45<planetmaker>the signal type currently is 3 bit
01:46<planetmaker>semaphore / light is another bit
01:46<planetmaker>so a current signal uses 4 bits
01:48<planetmaker>also have a look at your conig file in order to see the many settings of path finders which interface with signals
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01:48<planetmaker>even though it seems that the "red" state is stored in the map
01:49<ashaw>though the signal type uses three bits, only 6 of the 8 states are used.
01:50<planetmaker>two precious states reserved
01:50<planetmaker>preferrably actually for path advance signals ;-)
01:50<ashaw>what are they reserved for?
01:50<ashaw>path advance signals?
01:51<planetmaker>weak ahead reservation for path signals
01:51<ashaw>what file is the map array defined.
01:51<planetmaker>dunno. I read the docs
01:51<planetmaker>probably map*
01:55<ashaw>so was I
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01:59<welshdragon> < heh, my off-topic rant
01:59<planetmaker>in any case the short answer is: those two signal types are reserved for more general ideas on signals than a not signal
01:59<ashaw>I am just wondering why it is 3 bits.
02:00<ashaw>and why it could not be changed.
02:00<planetmaker>no space
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02:01<ashaw>where is the struct?
02:01<ashaw>there cannot be no space.
02:02<ashaw>and if there is not, I will read the code and refactor it so that there is.
02:05<planetmaker>look at ~/ottd/trunk/docs/landscape.html
02:05<planetmaker>and ottd/trunk/docs/landscape_grid.html respectively
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02:17<planetmaker> <-- this will, btw, ashaw, solve your issue en passant.
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02:18<ashaw>but will it be added to trunk?
02:18<ashaw>probably not.
02:18<planetmaker>maybe. maybe not
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02:19<planetmaker>but not signals on their own have a much lower chance
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02:19<ashaw>I can understand that.
02:19<planetmaker>actually they belong nearly to the already rejected features ;-)
02:20<planetmaker>but that might be a result of the patch quality back then
02:23<ashaw>I agree that this is a much better patch.
02:23<ashaw>hope it gets through
02:26<nighthawkcm>which patch?
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03:00<planetmaker>programmable signals
03:08<Alberth>trying to build a nano processor?
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03:22<planetmaker>moin Alberth :-) Not me. And it's already possible. But yeah... not in nano-size, I guess :-P
03:22<planetmaker>I rather fix all train alignments in OpenGFX :-)
03:23<Alberth>A micro processor contains several millions transistors, I guessed you may want to start at a somewhat smaller scale :D
03:23<Alberth>moin btw
03:24<Alberth>but train alignment fixes is also a good use of your time :)
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03:24<ccfreak2k>Alberth, better not tell him about FPGAs then.
03:25<Alberth>let's not :)
03:27<planetmaker>I think I should write a tutorial on my train alignment. I think I now have understood it :-). And it is now "just" getting all the sprites in the correct graphical layout
03:27<planetmaker>but FPGA: good stuff ;-)
03:28<planetmaker>faster than software crap :-P
03:28<Alberth>or programmable signals :p
03:28<planetmaker>:-P yeah
03:28<planetmaker>but then I don't need to control OpenTTD trains at milli-second level
03:29<planetmaker>usual OS wouldn't really allow for that
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03:31*Alberth ponders building a computer from the planets/suns of the galaxy
03:32<planetmaker>the answer will be 42 or so...
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03:34<Alberth>hmm, yeah it has been done before
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03:45<nighthawkcm>A quick question, when using Pikka's basic industries (Version 1.5) - the Coal mine for example shows a line saying 0% of an estimated 8k tonnes transported - what exactly is this telling me?
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03:48<amalloy>i'm curious too actually. i've had it say like 254% of estimated 8k, but never played long enough to see if it ever runs out
03:49<nighthawkcm>ah, so it is not actually a limitation to the ore deposit
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03:51<Alberth>normally, primary industries do run out of raw material and close down. How Pikka's basic industries do this, I don't know.
03:51<nighthawkcm>Normally they don't unless you use a industry grf afaik
03:52<nighthawkcm>They close if they are under serviced
03:52<nighthawkcm>or am I missing something here
03:53<planetmaker>Alberth: primary industries DO NOT run out of raw material, eh?
03:53<Alberth>planetmaker: they don't?
03:53<planetmaker>except in ECS / PBI where there's some algorithm... dunno which either
03:53<Alberth>oh sorry for the confusion then
03:53<planetmaker>Alberth: default without newgrf? Never
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03:54*Alberth hardly ever plays, and if I do, I hardly use NewGRFs :)
03:54<planetmaker>so you should know :-P
03:54<Alberth>all my games start at 1950, and end somewhere in the '80s :)
03:54<planetmaker>that's short :-)
03:55<amalloy>for estimated production
03:55<planetmaker>I spend half my time watching trains and vehicles go... so 1980 is little time
03:55<nighthawkcm>Well, now as I understand it PBI also doesn't run out, maybe this is a placeholder for a later to be implemented algorithm to limit deposits - which I very much dislike :-P
03:55<Alberth>usually 1/2 a day :)
03:55<amalloy>it doesn't run out, but it starts decreasing more and increasing less
03:55<Alberth>nighthawkcm: you are free to make your own better industry NewGRFs :)
03:56<nighthawkcm>I have to admit that I don't understand shit about the NFO files and find the documentation very confusing for a beginner
03:56<planetmaker>amalloy: it's the choice of the newgrf coder. You can devise nearly any fancy algorithm concerning decrease / increase and closing of industries
03:56<asilv>in pbi, once it reaches 100% capacity, industries can only decrease production, so they will close eventually, but it may take long time
03:56<nighthawkcm>And I am hardly able to read a NFO of a existing Industry GRF - so no freaking way I understand the game mechanics
03:57<amalloy>planetmaker: yes, clearly. but i provided a link which shows what it does, and then summarized
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04:04<Alberth>moin andythenorth
04:08*andythenorth ponders hovercraft docking on land...
04:08<andythenorth>...hovercraft recolor sprites
04:08<andythenorth>...hovercraft wake sprites
04:08*peter1138 ponders
04:09<andythenorth>and how to best show hovercraft top speed :P
04:09*andythenorth also ponders using the same hovercraft sprites for an RV
04:10<planetmaker>moin andythenorth
04:10<andythenorth>hi hi
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04:10<planetmaker>re max speed: that should IMHO be the speed which a vehicle drives when it's fasted. If that's unloaded only, so it be
04:10<planetmaker>My car is unloaded also faster than fully loaded with the luggage of 4 people when going into longer holidays
04:11<andythenorth>but the speed that is useful is the one when loaded? As that is what payment is based on....
04:11<planetmaker>my papers state though the theoretical max speed ;-)
04:11<planetmaker>hm... for ships there's no such thing as TE... hm
04:12<planetmaker>do ships have something like drag coefficient?
04:12*andythenorth wonders if a vehicle type "hovercraft" could be implemented as a monster hack on aircraft shadows
04:13<Turgid>Max speed means maximum, not "somewhat limited speed" or "loaded speed," IMO.
04:13<planetmaker> dbg: [sl] Game Load Failed
04:13<planetmaker>File not readable
04:13<planetmaker>^^ May be true, but for a non-existing file the message could be improved ;-)
04:14<Jupix>planetmaker: you mean like ?
04:14*planetmaker shudders at the units of that equation
04:14*andythenorth thinks the logical definition of 'Max speed' may not be accepted by annoyed players
04:15<planetmaker>andythenorth: any definition will not be accepted
04:15<andythenorth>and yes...the hovercraft should accelerate faster - if that's what you're thinking about planetmaker
04:15<planetmaker>if you introduce different max speeds as a function of load
04:15<planetmaker>as such you can use the more sensible definition then.
04:16<planetmaker>or just keep a single max speed.
04:16<planetmaker>make it the loaded one. And fine is.
04:17<@peter1138>and then the next thing you know
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04:25*andythenorth hmmmms a bit
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04:28<andythenorth>so when a train goes slower loaded, players don't complain. So maybe planetmaker is right
04:29<planetmaker>a load dependent drag coefficient would make sense :-)
04:29<planetmaker>like c_drag = 0.5 ... 0.9 for unloaded ... loaded
04:29<andythenorth>is that how the real physics works for hovercraft?
04:29<planetmaker>hovercraft... probably not.
04:30<planetmaker>there it shouldn't matter. You just need more fuel
04:30<planetmaker>as you need more lift
04:30<planetmaker>the drag probably doesn't change much unless you put many containers on them
04:30<planetmaker>and acceleration will be worse... well.
04:33<andythenorth>dunno why I like the variable speed thing so much
04:33<andythenorth>I just think it's neat :P
04:35<Alberth>you are compensating for programming those industries that do not move at all :p
04:35*andythenorth dreams of factory ships
04:39<Alberth>as long as you don't hunt whales.
04:40<andythenorth>maybe there should just be one speed for hovercraft, and then a refit for 'less cargo, but faster' or vice versa
04:42<planetmaker>andythenorth: that sounds much better
04:43<planetmaker>trade 1/3 of the cargo for 30% speed or so
04:43<planetmaker>and rise running costs by 20% ;-)
04:43<DDR>Drag is a function of the head-on silouhette, not of weight, for a hovercraft. If you were on wheels, then the drag would increase as you put more load on them.
04:45<planetmaker>DDR: and exactly the silouhette changes, if you load containers
04:46<DDR>I assumed the hovercraft was a covered model, where the containers fit inside the craft itself. Sorry.
04:46<DDR>Like a semi trailer.
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04:51<andythenorth>20t@66mph, 30t @42mph seems about right
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04:52<Terkhen>good morning
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05:08<andythenorth>hi Terkhen
05:09<planetmaker>moin Terkhen
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06:38<Eddi|zuHause>new reason to stay away the hell from mac: "No software will be able to run on Mac OS X 10.7 without being approved and signed by Apple, Inc." (,00.shtml)
06:40<frosch123> :)
06:40<blathijs>Eddi|zuHause: Wtf? :-S
06:40<__ln__>is that a reliable source?
06:40<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: i have no idea
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06:43<blathijs>It doesn't cite any references, so I'm skeptical
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06:43<__ln__>me too, it's sounds too silly to be true.
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>... i wouldn't put it past them...
06:44<ccfreak2k>I looked up extreme programming on Wikipedia and was disappointed. :(
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>it sounds too manager-y plausible to say "hey, we have this for iPhone and iPad, why not make it for Mac OS as well?"
06:45<Alberth>it was not so extreme?
06:45<ccfreak2k>Eddi|zuHause, sure, and they've proven that it's worked well so far with the iPhone.
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06:46<frosch123>extreme programming :) that is what we do for ottd
06:46<ccfreak2k>Alberth, I was hoping for something gameshow worthy.
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06:47<Alberth>frosch123: shouldn't we do pair programming too?
06:48<frosch123>we review most patches... or do you mean the patch is only allowed to be reviewed by one? :p
06:48<Alberth>pair programming is sitting together at the same computer afaik, we don't do that :)
06:49<ccfreak2k>frosch123, maybe he means two programmers trying to use a single keyboard.
06:49<Alberth>but patch reviewing is also part of extreme programming indeed.
06:49<__ln__>there would be a significant delay with sending a keyboard from e.g. from netherlands to canada and back.
06:49<Alberth>ccfreak2k: not at the same time :p
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06:49<ccfreak2k>Alberth, but that would make it extreme!
06:52<frosch123> <- ah, now it understand the angle between the two halfes. that is better if you sit next to each other
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07:03<frosch123>that image belongs to an impressive shop... how weird can keyboard be...
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07:38<Eddi|zuHause>i never understood those keyboards
07:39<FauxFaux>The ones with the gap in the middle? They're amazing!
07:39<FauxFaux> ssrs desk.
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07:47<PeterT>Servers with all capitals...gross.
07:49<PeterT>fonsinchen: I'm about to make an updated binary.
07:50<frosch123>a hooray for all ctrl-features \o/
07:50<PeterT>Your shortlog says that the last time you updated was 2010-03-31 or something like that
07:51<PeterT>do I still just 'git pull' as I did before?
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07:58<fonsinchen>petert, you have to pull "cd", not "cargodist"
07:58<fonsinchen>I'm going to remove the cargodist branch now ...
07:59<PeterT>completely, or just for now?
07:59<fonsinchen>now it's gone. No more confusion
08:00<PeterT>ok :-)
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08:10<PeterT>The download online content button in 1.0.1-RC2 looks much more hefty
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09:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19716 /trunk/src/water_cmd.cpp: -Documentation: Add comments for lock building and removal functions.
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09:47<CIA-6>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19717 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Fix: The cost of the first bridge type was added when building an aqueduct.
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09:50<CIA-6>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19718 /trunk/src/water_cmd.cpp: -Fix: The cost of clearing tiles was not taken into account when building locks.
09:52<CIA-6>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19719 /trunk/src/water_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: When building a lock, do not add the cost of building canals if they are already built.
09:57<CIA-6>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19720 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Feature: New base costs for building/clearing canals, building/clearing aqueducts and building/clearing locks.
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10:11<Ammler>where does stable installer install the base data files?
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10:16<devilsadvocate>Ammler, it doesnt, iirc
10:17<Ammler>it does install to ~/OpenTTD/data
10:17<devilsadvocate>i think it would go to $INSTALL_FOLDER/data
10:18<devilsadvocate>or on linux to somewhere in /usr/share/games/openttd/data
10:18<Ammler>devilsadvocate: a windows user told me that
10:18<KenjiE20>probably depends on OS
10:18<Ammler>devilsadvocate: there is no known installer for *nix, afaik
10:18<devilsadvocate>Ammler, distro packages do that
10:18<Ammler>at least not official
10:18<devilsadvocate>on windows, i remember putting the base files into program files/...
10:19<devilsadvocate>and not users/...
10:19<Ammler>devilsadvocate: I asked there the installer does put it.
10:20<KenjiE20>SetOutPath "$INSTDIR\data\" <---
10:20<Ammler>but anyway, if somone is installing stable with official *nix packages, he doesn't have automatically access to the basesets for nightlies
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10:47<CIA-6>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19721 /trunk/src/table/pricebase.h: -Change: Set the new base costs to better values.
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11:07<Eddi|zuHause>that's because the data packages are usually separate
11:11<Ammler>openttd should have some "hardcoded" paths, it looks for data
11:11<Ammler>/usr/share/openttd/ should be one
11:13<Eddi|zuHause>there are: --personal-dir, --shared-dir, --data-dir
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11:15<Eddi|zuHause>where --data-dir should be the binary-dependent data files (languages, etc.), --shared-dir the binary-independent data files (opengfx, etc.) and --personal-dir the user-downloaded data files (bananas etc.)
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11:16<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: that isn't hardcoded...
11:17<Ammler>and --shared-dir works for osx only
11:17<frosch123>win users will be happy about that
11:18<Ammler>_if_ it does :-)
11:23<Ammler>frosch123: it is also possible that *nix systems don't have that path, so of course, it is just a path to look for possible data
11:23<Ammler>but now, if you use official stable and install nightlies, you can't share the base sets.
11:24<frosch123>i thought i do
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11:24<Ammler>windows user can, as there it installs the data to $HOME
11:25<Ammler>frosch123: I am usre, you move the data sets around
11:25<Ammler>or created symlinks
11:25<frosch123>no, i have original files in /usr/share, and the bananas stuff and repositories in ~/.openttd
11:26<@Rubidium>Ammler: who told you the installer puts data in $HOME?
11:26<Ammler>someone in #openttdcoop
11:26<Ammler>Rubidium: windows installer
11:27<Ammler>frosch123: and you can use the base data from /usr/share on a nightly?
11:29<@Rubidium>Ammler: and what makes you believe that "someone" is more credible than say KenjiE20?
11:29<Ammler>I made a symlink from /usr/share to /usr/local/share to have that possiblility
11:30<KenjiE20>yea [15:21:40] <KenjiE20> SetOutPath "$INSTDIR\data\" <--- that line came from me digging in the installer so...
11:30<Ammler>Rubidium: Well, then the problem exists not just for *nix, also for windows
11:31<Eddi|zuHause><Ammler> and --shared-dir works for osx only <-- have you actually tried this?
11:32<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: doesn't matter, the nightly don't use it
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: not by default, maybe, but you can configure it...
11:34<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: I am fine with the symlink :-)
11:35<Ammler>the discussion is about general user issue, if the use nightlies
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: then maybe the discussion should be to change the default
11:36<@Rubidium>so Windows installers must get a query for two paths?
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>nothing in the documentation (i.e. ./configure --help) indicates that shared-dir is OSX only
11:36<Ammler>or just adding some additional paths to the search
11:36<@Rubidium>and OpenTTD already searches like 5 paths
11:36<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: but the readme does
11:37<@Rubidium>Ammler: really?
11:37<Ammler>well, at least, it did :-)
11:37<Eddi|zuHause> 3. The shared directory
11:37<Eddi|zuHause> Linux: not available
11:37<Ammler>anyway, that doesn't matter :-P
11:38<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: does it say it is OSX only?
11:38<Ammler>if that would work, it whould still need the compile farm to use it
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11:40<@Rubidium>and the "shared" directory in OpenTTD's sense is the place to store the highscore data, i.e. it has to be user readable/writable
11:40<Ammler>and then, there is another issue, debian distro use /usr/share/games, rpm distros use /usr/share, other distros might use something else...
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: that is not solveable by openttd
11:41<Ammler>yeah, I just mean, it needs more than one path there :-)
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: but would that not fall back to the personal directory if it's not writable?
11:42<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: yes, but /usr/share is by definition the "wrong" place for the highscore data I'd say
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>put it in /var :p
11:43<@Rubidium>even then, how many paths does Ammler want to add?
11:43<@peter1138>system global high sources? hah
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea what Ammler wants, and i'm not sure he knows himself
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>well, over here, /var/games has some highscore files in it
11:44<@Rubidium>hmm, actually Ammler would likely like to add at least 8 and at least one of the is double
11:45<Ammler>Rubidium: does that matter?
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>so, suggestion: use /var/games/openttd as shared dir?
11:45<@peter1138>i want XDG paths!
11:45<@Rubidium>/usr/[local/]share/[games/]openttd[-data] or so
11:45<@Rubidium>Ammler: if you care about the speed OpenTTD starts it does
11:45<@Rubidium>and the speed it handles data files in general
11:46<Ammler>he, what a silly distro uses openttd-data?
11:47<Eddi|zuHause>one that has an openttd-data package?
11:47<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: yes, for package name that is
11:47<Ammler>but /usr/share implies already "data"
11:47<@Rubidium>Ammler: the ones that want to move the openttd-installation-non-specific data files, i.e. opengfx/opensfx/openmsx, out of the openttd installation directory
11:47<Eddi|zuHause>it might be problematic if two packages write to the same dir
11:48<@Rubidium>Any variable data relating to games in /usr should be placed here. /var/games should hold the variable data previously found in /usr; static data, such as help text, level descriptions, and so on, must remain elsewhere, such as /usr/share/games.
11:48<@Rubidium>from FHS, so /var/games isn't useful for opengfx et al.
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11:49<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but for highscores, savegames et al.
11:49<@Rubidium>I don't have write access to create a games directory there
11:50<Ammler>[17:45] <Rubidium> /usr/[local/]share/[games/]openttd[-data] or so <-- would be nice for a start.
11:50<Ammler>and the windows path
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>"/var/games" is owned by the user "games" and the group "games" here
11:51<Ammler>root here
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>and group-writable
11:52<@Rubidium>Ammler: but doing that is "like" add / to the search paths, wheras adding / is more effective
11:53<@Rubidium>anyhow, I'm not that concerned that nightlies are not as easy to install than stable binaries
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>yes, please also add /windows/C/<typical windows paths> :)
11:54<@Rubidium>and I don't want to add a load of paths just for the case where it might be useful for that single noob that "needs" to play nightlies and can't figure out symlinks
11:56<Ammler>Rubidium: that is usually one or 2 additional paths
11:57<Ammler>if the path doesn't exist, why does it waste starting time?
11:57<Ammler>or "how?"
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11:58<@Rubidium>if it's duplicate
11:58<jack>(in cargodist), should payment for income be registered in finances at the transfer or at the final destination?
11:59<jack>bah, payment for transfers
12:00<@Rubidium>should as in "what do you think it should do" or should as in "does"?
12:00<@Rubidium>in the former case it shouldn't, in the latter I don't know
12:00<jack>should as in intented functionality
12:04<fonsinchen>payment behaves the same in cargodist as in trunk
12:04<fonsinchen>transfers, however, are automated
12:07<jack>which means?
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12:12<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19722 /trunk/src/console_cmds.cpp: -Fix: crash when using restart via rcon.
12:22<Eddi|zuHause>means you don't set transfer in the orders, it will automatically transfer if necessary
12:22<jack>ah, sure
12:22<Eddi|zuHause>payment is only done at the final destination, like in trunk
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12:27<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19723 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs):
12:27<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Add: a simple sprite alignment helper. It does not store the new offsets
12:27<CIA-6>OpenTTD: anywhere so as soon as the sprite is reloaded the offsets are gone (use a bigger
12:27<CIA-6>OpenTTD: sprite cache if this happens). Also anything that reloads NewGRFs (new games,
12:27<CIA-6>OpenTTD: loading games or (re)applying NewGRFs) clears the sprite cache and as such
12:27<CIA-6>OpenTTD: resets the offsets.
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12:35<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19724 /trunk/src/tree_map.h: -Fix [FS#3792]: random tree type did not build all sub-tropic trees (Krille)
12:35<jack>what about IS2 - does it (or trunk) make sure the payment is distributed to the correct companies?
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13:01<Eddi|zuHause>trunk does not
13:01<jack>neither does IS2
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>in trunk it can only happen in rare cases, like using an oil rig for transfer
13:02<jack>i think cargodest payed at the moment of transfer
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>you think wrong then
13:05<jack>stored the shares in the cargopackets
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13:26<Eddi|zuHause>(PS: apparently the "OSX Store" story is "not true")
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13:28<jack>is "days_in_transit" in CargoPacket days since it was loaded at source or at "loaded_at_xy" (last loaded)?
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure that is documented somewhere, likely in the header
13:33<jack>doesn't say more than the name. it's used both for calculating total income and feeder shares...
13:36<fonsinchen>it's the days it has spent in vehicles.
13:37<fonsinchen>While the packet is waiting at stations the value isn't updated, only while travelling in vehicles.
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>i vaguely remember that it's not real days either
13:40<jack>2.5 days
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13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19725 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: catalan - 4 changes by arnau
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: finnish - 23 changes by jpx_
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: french - 4 changes by glx
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: lithuanian - 11 changes by BlinK_
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: polish - 3 changes by silver_777
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14:36<planetmaker>\o/ @ r19723 :-)
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14:54<andythenorth>hi hi
14:54<andythenorth>so did Terkhen fix canal building costs?
14:55<andythenorth>my svn is screwed for some reason
14:55<andythenorth>I can't up
14:55<andythenorth>nor can I relocate the repo remote url. Or I'm doing it wrong
14:56<Alberth>what does it say
14:56<andythenorth>pdq2s-macbook-3:trunk andy$ svn up
14:56<andythenorth>svn: Can't connect to host '': No route to host
14:56<andythenorth>pdq2s-macbook-3:OTTD andy$ svn switch
14:56<andythenorth>svn: Can't connect to host '': No route to host
14:56<Alberth>.com ?
14:56<andythenorth>I have RTFMed in several places
14:57<Alberth>what does svn info say?
14:57<frosch123>Alberth: add "--relocate" to the switch command
14:57<frosch123>* andythenorth
14:58<andythenorth>pdq2s-macbook-3:OTTD andy$ svn switch --relocate
14:58<andythenorth>svn: Relocate can only change the repository part of an URL
14:58<Muxy>@seen ammler
14:58<@DorpsGek>Muxy: ammler was last seen in #openttd 3 hours and 53 seconds ago: <Ammler> or "how?"
14:59<Alberth>add a / after the host?
14:59<frosch123>or svn ?
15:01<Alberth>svn according to the wiki
15:01<Terkhen>I always use svn://svn...
15:01<Alberth>what is the current repo root? (svn info)
15:01-!-fonsinchen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:02<andythenorth>Repository Root: svn://
15:02<frosch123>so try "svn switch --relocate svn:// svn://"
15:03<andythenorth>svn: Can't connect to host '': No route to host
15:03<andythenorth>^ result of command from frosch123
15:03*andythenorth could checkout again, but seems like a waste of bandwidth
15:03<Alberth>svn ls svn:// does this work ?
15:04<Alberth>andythenorth: I'd expect a /trunk after the host at the root.
15:05<Ammler>Muxy: empty highlight?
15:05<Muxy>ah Ammler, i have to show you something
15:05<Ammler>I am looking forward :-P
15:05<andythenorth>Alberth: svn ls svn:// fails
15:06<Ammler>andythenorth: list
15:06<Alberth>it works here.
15:06-!-Lorenzo [] has joined #openttd
15:06<frosch123>here too
15:06<Lorenzo>good day everyone
15:06<andythenorth>pdq2s-macbook-3:trunk andy$ svn ls svn://
15:06<andythenorth>svn: Can't connect to host '': No route to host
15:06<frosch123>Ammler: who types "list" ?
15:06<Lorenzo>can someone tell me how to access the sprite aligner tool?
15:06<Alberth>Lorenzo: hello
15:07<frosch123>Lorenzo: did you already enable the newgrf developer tools?
15:07<Ammler>frosch123: just an idea :-)
15:07<Lorenzo>I think so... set the newgrf_developer_tool to true in cfg file
15:07<Lorenzo>I can already inspect objects
15:08<frosch123>iirc it is under the land info dropdown
15:08<planetmaker>and it's nice.
15:08<andythenorth>any reason I shouldn't just do a hg checkout
15:08<andythenorth>of ottd trunk?
15:08<planetmaker>Once one knows the sprite ID :-)
15:08<planetmaker>andythenorth: none
15:09<Alberth>andythenorth: I'd recommend it :)
15:09<andythenorth>hg clone fooproject ??
15:09*planetmaker only uses hg unless absolutely required otherwise
15:09<planetmaker>andythenorth: should work iirc
15:09<planetmaker>ah... trunk.hg
15:09<Lorenzo>that menu contain only the 7 usual options
15:09<Terkhen>Lorenzo: do you have latest nightly?
15:10<planetmaker>Lorenzo: rcon set newgrf_developer_tools 1
15:10<planetmaker>in theconsole
15:10<Lorenzo>r19711, just downloaded it
15:10<planetmaker>is the sprite aligner already in the nightly?
15:10<frosch123>that is from yesterday
15:10<Terkhen>today's 19725
15:10*andythenorth is slapped down by a 404
15:10<planetmaker>r19723 or better is required
15:11<andythenorth>newgrf debug + new canal costs on their way to me
15:12<Alberth>and I'd recommend to make local copies of that repo to mess up
15:12<Lorenzo>oh my
15:13<Alberth>ie locally clone another working copy before using it
15:13<Lorenzo>let me check version again :)
15:14<Lorenzo>aaaalright, now I see the option
15:14<Lorenzo>10x for the help guys
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15:21<__ln__>what's "i'm in" in german? ... like in "we are going to buy a present to X" - "i'm in"
15:23<planetmaker>ich bin dabei
15:24*planetmaker ponders how to properly translate 'parent scope'
15:24<planetmaker>that abbreviation doesn't work in German ;-)
15:25<frosch123>planetmaker: something "übergeordnet"
15:25<planetmaker>frosch123: good idea. Thx
15:26<__ln__>planetmaker: maybe not, but at least it's not violating a trademark of lucasfilm ltd. :)
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15:36<andythenorth>hg changeset numbers != svn revisions :P
15:36<andythenorth>for reporting purposes
15:37<Alberth>hg log has a svn number
15:38<Alberth>and the script has a complicated command to pull that number from the log :)
15:39<Alberth>andythenorth: the good news is that you can do version control over your own changes
15:39<planetmaker>and better merges / easier updates of mods
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15:41<andythenorth>oh my word, I've just found the 'change values' part of Rubidium's newgrf debug :o
15:41<planetmaker>all these dev tools... they need proper documentation
15:41<planetmaker>People will need them
15:42<andythenorth>I am just editing the thread in dev forum that I started
15:42<andythenorth>as a starting point for that
15:42<andythenorth>but the wiki would obviously be better
15:42<frosch123>hmm, now there is a "grfmaker" in the "grf2html" url :p
15:43<planetmaker>andythenorth: yeah, wiki would be quite more appropriate
15:44*andythenorth is still figuring out how to use the tools in depth
15:44<planetmaker>hm... any way to get the sprite number(s) of the sprites on a certain tile?
15:48<planetmaker>andythenorth: in console set newgrf_developer_tools 1 works also
15:48<planetmaker>so no need to edit any cfg
15:49<andythenorth>yep just done that thanks :)
15:51*andythenorth thinks the sprite aligner could use a 'reset' option
15:51<andythenorth>as I've just ballsed up the cursor :)
15:51<frosch123>reload_newgrfs will do
15:51<planetmaker>andythenorth: it has. Just re-apply ... ^
15:51<frosch123>though it resets everything
15:52<andythenorth>so the only thing I can't see is how to find a sprite number easily
15:52<planetmaker>the good thing is: it also works for base grfs.
15:52<nighthawkcm>I pray for the NFO programming language :-) All those hex numbers make me dizzy :-P
15:52<planetmaker>the bad thing: reload_newgrfs doesn't work for them (dunno if it resets those ofsets, though)
15:53<andythenorth>the aligner is fricking awesome
15:53<planetmaker>hm... once I have toyland and maglev trains aligned... then I might add the {VERSION} tag to NML... hm
15:54<andythenorth>no more, tweak, save, switch to terminal, compile, switch to openttd, reload newgrfs :D
15:54<__ln__>what's 'before' in german in "we should know thing Y before we can do anything"?
15:54<asilv>in ttdp sprite aligner the sprite number is same as nfo sprite number, would it be possible to do same for ottd?
15:55<__ln__>ach, that's so logisch
15:55<planetmaker>asilv: might even be true. Did you check?
15:55<frosch123>asilv: maybe, but is that acually useful? as pm says, you rather want to align what you just see
15:55<@peter1138>9nfo sprite number is not stored, so no, not really
15:56<andythenorth>I don't know the sprite number in any of my projects, it just adds another bunch of clicks if I have to go look those up :o
15:56<andythenorth>(nfo sprite)
15:56<asilv>well, it sounds most natural to me, but maybe thats because i'm used toit
15:56<planetmaker>but then... in my source the sprite number is still mentioned, but the sprite representation is more useful :-)
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15:57<frosch123>planetmaker: do you have a spritenumber in you pnfo?
15:57<planetmaker>frosch123: no
15:57<planetmaker>OpenGFX still has them in the comments for orientation
15:57<@peter1138>i'm mistaken
15:57<frosch123>so spritenumber would be useles, or not?
15:57<@peter1138>the nfo sprite number IS stored
15:57<@peter1138>so yes, it is possible
15:58<planetmaker>like // 2384 - 2388: Millenium falcon
15:58<@peter1138>but doesn't everyone just use -1 these days?
15:58*andythenorth is disappointed that 2384 is actually a tunner
15:58<andythenorth>tunnel /s
15:58<andythenorth>I use -1
15:58<planetmaker>frosch123: well... one can compile and look in the NFO, but... clicking on a tile to get the sprite numbers would be more useful
15:58<frosch123>peter1138: where is it stored?
15:58<@peter1138>frosch123, in the sprite cache
15:58<planetmaker>andythenorth: the sprites use that, too in the source
15:59<planetmaker>And only for base grf the sprite number matters really. For a newgrf I wouldn't care
15:59<@peter1138>file_sprite_id is passed as nfo_line for newgrf
16:00<@peter1138>i don't know why, i don't know what it's used for, but it wastes 4 bytes ;)
16:01<frosch123>oh, if it is that easy, add it to the caption next to the filename :)
16:01<planetmaker>newgrf debug messages?
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16:03<frosch123>hmm, a spritepicker tool: press a button in the aligner, click somewhere on the screen, redraw the screen, and check the spritebounds with the clickposition, then display a list of all sprites intersecting...
16:03<frosch123>who volunteers?
16:06<planetmaker>hm... general question: are there more buttons / sprites planned in this process?
16:06<planetmaker>I'm thinking of a new OpenGFX version once the trains are done
16:06<planetmaker>Current alignment is crappy enough that it's worth it
16:07<frosch123>is there any new button than the debug button which you already have?
16:09<planetmaker>we have the debug button already in the current release
16:09<planetmaker>but nothing else
16:10<frosch123>i doubt there is a need for more button sprites. everything else can use textbuttons
16:10<planetmaker>but if there's the idea to actually add further ones... might be a good idea to think about it :-)
16:10<planetmaker>yeah, probably :-)
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16:22*andythenorth can draw icons
16:22<andythenorth>sprite picker would be awesome, but how would it deal with the layering / sorter?
16:23<andythenorth>you get the sprite that the pixel you clicked on belongs to?
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16:26<planetmaker>andythenorth: you'd need to get a list of sprites
16:26<planetmaker>even for a level crossing you might want to get 3: ground, track + traffic light
16:26<planetmaker>even worse in a town with buildings and vehicles
16:27<@peter1138>er, you got 6 actually
16:27<planetmaker>ground, vehicle, building 1 and building 2
16:27<@peter1138>with railtypes, anyway
16:27<planetmaker>peter1138: for a single pixel?
16:27<planetmaker>for a tile there are more, yes
16:27<Sacro>can we finally rename 'Forbid trains and ships to make 90 deg turns'
16:27<@peter1138>oh, pixel, sorry.
16:28<Sacro>it's not only bad English but 'deg' isn't a word
16:28<@peter1138>we never change it just because it annoys you
16:28<Sacro>it's teaching the foreigners that that kind of sentence is valid
16:28<Sacro>when it isn't
16:28<andythenorth>so we can't just trust the pixel that was clicked on belongs to the sprite we want?
16:28<planetmaker>Sacro: make a patch
16:29<planetmaker>andythenorth: we can't. But we would then see when we see it in the sprite aligner
16:29<planetmaker>if not, we jus try again...
16:29<andythenorth>I think 'click try again' is better than a list
16:29<planetmaker>andythenorth: not if sprites overlap
16:29<planetmaker>you'll need a list
16:29<__ln__>yes, replace 'deg' with e.g. 'bacon'.-
16:29<andythenorth>so click on a different pixel
16:30<andythenorth>if no pixels are showing, why bother aligning the sprite?
16:30<planetmaker>maybe it should show?
16:30*andythenorth occasionally clicks on pixels, just for recreational purposes
16:30<andythenorth>good point
16:30<planetmaker>also: it's interesting to see which sprites make the position
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16:31<planetmaker>you might then actually want to align another sprite than you initially thought you need to align
16:31<andythenorth>I just wonder if catering for the edge case makes the standard behaviour worse (I don't think I want a list). Maybe I would if I tried it.
16:31<planetmaker>especially with industries I think that might be true :-P Animated industries that is.
16:31*andythenorth finds his sprites after guessing in 1k increments
16:31<planetmaker>hm... KISS?
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16:34<planetmaker>maybe you're right that it's usually too much hassle to get a list...
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16:35<andythenorth>the list would contain sprites numbers? Or would it render the actual sprites?
16:35<andythenorth>one is barely useful :)
16:35<@Rubidium>planetmaker: I hoped that andythenorth would write the documentation :)
16:36<andythenorth>Rubidium: I think I should
16:36<planetmaker>hehe :-)
16:36<planetmaker>yes. It's "your" feature ;-)
16:36<andythenorth>writing != wiki formatting though
16:36<andythenorth>I fricking hate wiki formatting
16:37<planetmaker>you could still just write it in the wiki
16:37<@Rubidium>andythenorth: then let planetmaker do the wiki formatting! :)
16:37<CIA-6>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r19726 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Fix [FS#Sacro]: Broken English.
16:38<frosch123>[22:35] <andythenorth> the list would contain sprites numbers? Or would it render the actual sprites? <- i thought about a list inside the aligner window, so you can sequetially align them all
16:38<andythenorth>could be big, space wise?
16:38<frosch123>big? a column with spritenumbers and a scrollbar?
16:39<planetmaker>andythenorth: that's a deal: you write, I do the formating of the article ;-)
16:39<andythenorth>Interesting. ISR replaces the dock sprites, but there's no debug icon.
16:39<frosch123>and i doubt there are lots of sprites in one place, or you could not see what you are aligning anyway
16:39<@Rubidium>andythenorth: action A
16:39<planetmaker>andythenorth: that's a simple actionA replacement. Nothing to debug...
16:40<andythenorth>any other likely instances of that? I've never used action A
16:40<planetmaker>andythenorth: depends where and what. ActionA is quite useful
16:40<planetmaker>OpenGFX uses it by default to distinguish climates
16:40<planetmaker>Other newgrf - like TTRS - might replace banks or so
16:41<andythenorth>roadsets use action A?
16:41<planetmaker>or light houses or transmitters or road sets, yes
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16:41<planetmaker>old track sets as well. Mars conversion
16:41<planetmaker>all terrain mods
16:41<planetmaker>easy coding :-)
16:42<andythenorth>CanSet train depots show debug icon, US Road Set tram depots do not.
16:42<andythenorth>Just figuring out the limits of this
16:42<planetmaker>canset uses rail types surely.
16:42<@Rubidium>train -> railtypes
16:42<planetmaker>us road set probably not
16:42<@Rubidium>tram -> roadtypes... oh bollocks, that's not implemented yet
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16:45<@Rubidium>anyhow, supported are: vehicles, stations, railtypes, industries, industry types, houses, airport tiles (quite untested) and (via parent) towns
16:46<planetmaker>he :-) I didn't give reasons why c&p it was rejected. I assumed the person could read. Wrongly obviously.
16:46<@Rubidium>planetmaker: just don't call it "rejected"
16:47<planetmaker>bad wording probably... yeah
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16:50*andythenorth decisions decisions decisions: write documentation for newgrf debug tools, or use them to go on a rampage of newgrf authoring :P
16:50<frosch123>hmm, the list contains the mousesprite :p
16:51<planetmaker>andythenorth: documentation ;-)
16:52<planetmaker>or it'll never get done :-P
16:52<@Rubidium>don't forget the parts I wrote in the commit message of the sprite aligner thingy
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16:55<andythenorth>documentation it is then
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16:56<CIA-6>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19727 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r19720) [FS#3795]: Demolishing bridges or aqueducts caused a crash.
16:57<andythenorth>Rubidium: so that would be
16:59<@Rubidium>yes, the part about the data not being stored anywhere except in the spritecache
17:00<andythenorth>I'm going to save this irc transcript as an aide to documentation....any thing else I should know?
17:04<@Rubidium>not that I know
17:07<CIA-6>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19728 /trunk/bin/ai/regression/regression.txt: -Fix (r19720, r19721): Update regression test due to different costs.
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17:38<Eoin>anyone remember a certain UK Bus Set?
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17:43<Nite_Owl>Hello all
17:44<Terkhen>hi Nite_Owl
17:44<Nite_Owl>Hello Terkhen
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18:50<Eddi|zuHause>Eoin: yes.
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>"hovs" by Pikka
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19:16<Terkhen>good night
19:16<PeterT>good night Terkhen
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19:34*SmatZ zu Hause
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20:15<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: you replied to "distribute cargo over several industries" with "you can use NewGRF for that", how do you think that should work?
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20:23<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: when industry stops accepting cargo, it is distributed to other industries accepting it
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20:24<SmatZ>it was rather answer to the original problem, "Maximum Factory Goods Production??"
20:25<Eddi|zuHause>i think that's more like a workaround, not a solution
20:25<Eddi|zuHause>ah i hate flies...
20:26<Eddi|zuHause>i had my window open for half an hour today, and then i had 20 flies in the room which i can't get rid of...
20:26<Eddi|zuHause>they sleep at night, but they are hellishly annoying in the morning
20:28*SmatZ closes windows
20:29<SmatZ>there is a question
20:29<SmatZ>should the cargo be distributed equally to all industries in the catchment area?
20:29<SmatZ>or non-linearly with distance from station sign
20:34<Eddi|zuHause>my suggestion would be equally
20:35<Eddi|zuHause>by distance doesn't make sense
20:38<SmatZ>ok :)
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22:04<welshdragon>For up to date information regarding the UK Bus Set and British Rail OpenTTD Set, /join #dragonforums
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22:25<Mazur>Man. those PSG can really get intense.
22:27<Mazur>E>ddi: Wrt those flies: I find sticky fly traps work wonders.
22:28<Mazur>Keep those up for a bit, replace them now and again, and you're only left with remnants for the folded newspaper.
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---Logclosed Mon Apr 26 00:00:09 2010