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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-04-26

---Logopened Mon Apr 26 00:00:09 2010
00:11-!-Gartral [~Gareth@99-9-202-154.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #openttd
00:12<Gartral>ok, so what went wrong with waypoints? i cant make a train use a specific track/platform
00:17<Mazur>Are you sure yours signals are right way round?
00:18<Mazur>And that there are no 90 degree turns to them with Allow 90 degree turns: Off"
00:19<Mazur>And that the waypoint is not joined to another waypoint to another platform?
00:20<Mazur>Just three suggestions with my brain offline, because I'm on the way to bed and I don't want to start it up again.
00:22<Mazur>Haven't even mentioned a split between waypoint and platform, yet.
00:29<Gartral>Mazur: i've taken the time too tripple check, and yes, my trains are all avoiding waypoints when set to go via waypoint
00:30<Gartral>even on dangerous "no signal" loops.. (which isnt feasable anyway.. )
00:31<Mazur>Then I don't know, for now.
00:32<Gartral>>.<
00:32<Mazur>I only know, I hd no trouble with them.
00:33<Mazur>Don;t use them much, though, prefer to depend on signals sorting traffic and "non-stop" to bypass intermediate stations, adn let them choose their own platform at will."
00:34<Gartral>Mazur: problem with the last part is where im set up, i need the waypoints too rout 6 lanes through 1 bridge
00:34<Mazur>And now the rest of my body will go offline, as well, as soon as it hits my bed.
00:34<Gartral>lol
00:35<Mazur>Make extra bridges.
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00:35<Mazur>Put a second one beside it.
00:35<Gartral>Mazur: cant.. only found one good anchor point and the bridge i built soaked up 22 mil
00:35<Mazur>Probably jammed all the time, no?
00:36<Gartral>no.. just a long backlog
00:37<Mazur>Use landscape to make second anchor point, and watch the backlog resolve itself in time. So a couple dozens trains go wandering for a spell, let them, they'll find their way home when traffic lets up.
00:37<Mazur>s/and/or/
00:38<Mazur>That's one thing the Public Server Game teach you, jams can be fun.
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00:39<Gartral>mazure, actually, they all wait their turns nice and neat
00:39<Mazur>I followed one train with no room to its destination all over the map, sightseeing with it as it wandered around.
00:40<Mazur>Then I don't see your problem.
00:42<Mazur>They are behaving nicely, doing ass you require, except there are a lot of them waiting their turn.
00:42<Mazur>say If htere is room enough, it'll resolve, if not, build more bridge.
00:43<Mazur>Long bridge, if it costs 22 million.
00:44<Mazur>Not sure what levelling a spot of terrain hat long would cost, instead, if it could be cheaper.
00:44<Gartral>Mazur: goes from side with an island allll the way accross a 512x512 map
00:45<Mazur>500 tile length bridge?
00:45<Mazur>Madness.
00:45<Gartral>something like that yea, maybe just short of 500
00:46<Mazur>Like that makes a difference big enough to be noticed.
00:46<Gartral>yea :P
00:48<Mazur>terraforming that to a landbridge must be cheaper, not sure what the cost is, though. 300+ per point? that woujld amout to 15,000-25,000, of the top of my offline head.
00:48<Mazur>Plus one zero.
00:49<Mazur>150 k€, instead of 22 M€.
00:49<Mazur>Maybe twice that much.
00:50<Mazur>And you could signal it, so more trains at once on that line.
00:50<Mazur>Just an idea, mind.
00:51<Mazur>DOn't quote me, I'm only working with the pilot light of my brain.
00:51<Mazur>Now I'm really off.
00:52<amalloy1>that figure is way off, fyi
00:53<amalloy1>i just checked: raising a land bridge 30 tiles long (by only one unit of height) is1.8 million pounds
00:53<planetmaker>with inflation on
00:54<planetmaker>good morning :-)
00:54<planetmaker>@calc 30
00:54<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 30
00:54<planetmaker>@calc 30*15000
00:54<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 450000
00:54<amalloy1>well i tested this in 1950. so inflation shouldn't be an issue
00:54<planetmaker>@calc 30*60000
00:54<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 1800000
00:54<planetmaker>makes sense :-)
00:55-!-amalloy1 is now known as amalloy
00:55<planetmaker>I don't care about money in this game ;-)
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00:56<amalloy>no, but gartral was asking about building a bridge 500 tiles long and mazur claimed terraforming a land brige would be more than 100 times cheaper
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01:11<mynetdude>Is there any way to easily troubleshoot a signal issue as to why a train will not go through? (other than obvious, missing tracks, etc?
01:12<mynetdude>oh nevermind I think I know what the problem might be
01:13<mynetdude>was due to the bridge not being electrified :) thanks
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02:51<Terkhen>good morning
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04:25<Mazur>More ning.
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05:02<Mazur>That chinese bloke gets a lot of time-outs, don't you think? Wonder why _he_'s so badly behaved, then.
05:03<Mazur>I mean that Ping character.
05:03<Mazur>;-P
05:10<planetmaker>that's definitely 5€ into the bad pun money box
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06:54<ashaw>hello
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07:27<TrueBrain>who knows good erlang examples of node creation and monitoring?
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07:29<TrueBrain>meh, wrong channel
07:30<Eddi|zuHause>why can dolphin not edit mp3 tags?
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07:36<__ln__>because it lives in the water
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07:41<Eddi|zuHause>flies are evil...
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>at least wasps have the courtesy to get out again...
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08:59<oskari89>Hmm. How hard it would be to implement a height clearance (from water) for bridges to ships? And with those low clearance-bridges, some openable bridges with barriers to road traffic and rail traffic? :)
09:00-!-devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@202.3.77.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:00<__ln__>Hard.
09:01<oskari89>Would need a new pathfinder for ships
09:01<oskari89>?
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09:06<__ln__>Anything that requires introducing a completely new concept (such as openable bridges) must be hard.
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09:10<@Belugas>hello
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09:26<Terkhen>hi Belugas
09:29<@Belugas>mister Terkhen, good day to you, sir :)
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09:34<__ln__>does someone want to explain why menu items and button texts are in infinitivo rather than e.g. imperativo in spanish?
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09:38<Terkhen>infinitive is the proper verb form to talk about things that you can do, for example: "puedo guardar o cargar la partida"
09:38<Terkhen>any other verb form would sound strange
09:39<__ln__>but by pressing a button you are ordering the program to do something, and imperative is used in many other languages
09:40<planetmaker>__ln__, in German you can use both. It's just a matter of taste
09:40<planetmaker>"Gehe zum Standort" "Zum Standort gehen"
09:40<+glx>in french "infinitif" is used too
09:42<__ln__>ookay. i guess it's also a matter of what has become the common form to use in localized texts in the 80's or so.
09:44<fonsinchen>Do we have a coding style requirement about maximum line width?
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09:45<fonsinchen>We probably don't, but I'm inclined to introduce one, at least for my own code
09:52<Noldo>what would it be?
09:52<planetmaker>3 characters
09:53<fonsinchen>I'm using 80 characters right now
09:53<fonsinchen>I'm aware of the problem with different tab widths, though.
09:53<@Belugas>tron said once: as long as it fit a standard screen
09:53<@Belugas>so i'd say around 80
09:54*peter1138 uses 4 character tabs
09:54<planetmaker>salut Belugas :-)
09:54<@Rubidium>what is a "standard" screen?
09:55<@peter1138>1680x1050
09:55<@peter1138>so about 280 columns
09:55<planetmaker>EGA 640x480?
09:55<@Rubidium>@calc 1680/1920*240
09:55<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 210
09:55<@peter1138>no such thing
09:55<@Rubidium>oh, my math says 210 columns :)
09:56<@Rubidium>guess my "standard" screen has bigger characters
09:56<fonsinchen>I don't like anything more than about 100, no matter what screen I'm using
09:56<@peter1138>hmm, my characters are 6 pixels wide, including spacing
09:56<fonsinchen>Being able to read the text is not dependent on screen width
09:57<@peter1138>yeah but
09:57<@peter1138>we'd have loads of broken up strings if we stuck to 80
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09:57<fonsinchen>We need some exceptions, obviously
09:58<fonsinchen>like settings.h, english.txt and the like don't need to respect the line width
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09:59<@Rubidium>neither the GPL boilerplate
10:00<fonsinchen>186 ... what a pain.
10:01<@peter1138>how about no line breaks, and let your editor do it ;)
10:01<fonsinchen>but, OK, you don't need to read it that often
10:01<fonsinchen>The indentations are lost in that case
10:02<fonsinchen>We can also say "use common sense" and add X tabs when breaking a line
10:02<fonsinchen>where X would need to be defined.
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10:05<fonsinchen>let's say X is 1.
10:06<@Rubidium>I'd rather say 2, so it doesn't look like an indentation of an if/for/while
10:06<fonsinchen>OK. And lets say "when breaking a 'if (...) {' line, put the '{' on another new line without the additional indentation.
10:06<fonsinchen>"
10:08<fonsinchen>same goes for "for" and "while" then
10:09<@Rubidium>not sure about that; would look a lot like a closing
10:09<fonsinchen>IMHO it makes it much easier to spot where the condition ends and the conditional code begins.
10:09<@Rubidium>personally I'd do 'if (foo ||\n\t\tbar) {\n\tprintf("ouch\n");\n}'
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10:10<fonsinchen>OK, we can leave that one out, then.
10:11<fonsinchen>I'll add those rules to the wiki.
10:12<@Rubidium>uhm, not quite sure whether it's a rule
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10:13<fonsinchen>Which one?
10:13<ccfreak2k>With the advent of pretty printers, can't you just run it through one before committing it?
10:13<fonsinchen>Actually there'd only be one new rule: Line break => two tabs
10:14<@Rubidium>ccfreak2k: and then have a huge flux in the source code each time someone uses a slightly different version of such a tool?
10:14<fonsinchen>the syntax of line-broken if/while/for can be derived from that one and the existing rule for if/while/for
10:15<@Rubidium>not to mention making some aligned stuff unaligned and thus removing all the overview the aligning gave
10:16<@Rubidium>and I've not yet found a "pretty printer" that doesn't mess up our coding style significantly
10:16<fonsinchen>The two tabs after line break syntax is actually in one of the examples in the wiki
10:17<fonsinchen>I'd still like to make it explicit.
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10:22<fonsinchen>btw: /* virtual */ ~FlowMapper() {}
10:22<fonsinchen>is this allowed?
10:23<fonsinchen>or do I have to put the '{' and '}' on separate lines?
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10:32<+glx>fonsinchen: just do a quick search, but I think we use this form
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12:20<mynetdude>Hi its been awhile, but is there any way to keep a train behind the signal rather stopping inside the protected area? Here example: http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/8p7pCTIBbzsUwTb1lAOTsDKXMft_UwyELgbbigBa47k?feat=directlink
12:21<Sacro>use presignals or path signals
12:22<mynetdude>a presig as in entry/exit sigs?
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12:23<Sacro>Yeah
12:23<Progman>presignal might not work well there, maybe you need to use path signals
12:23<mynetdude>ok thanks will try that
12:25<@peter1138>Sacro, openttd is complete now, yeah?
12:25<Sacro>peter1138: complete?
12:25<mynetdude>hmm that was interesting
12:25<@peter1138>after i fixed that issue last night
12:25<mynetdude>all paths are red but trains still pass through
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12:26<Sacro>hmm, perhaps
12:26<Progman>mynetdude: if you use path signals you have to remove some signals as each signal is a stop location for a train
12:26<Sacro>I might go after aquaeduct next :)
12:27<Progman>mynetdude: http://wiki.openttd.org/Signals#Path_Signals
12:27<Sacro>I would perhaps use Stop instead of Forbid
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12:31<mynetdude>so if all signals are red does that mean the train will stop when the path isn't clear? I converted all the block sigs to path
12:32<@peter1138>aquaeduct?
12:35<jack>path signals are red by default
12:36<mynetdude>yeah just realized that, thanks hmm I can see its usefulness
12:37<Progman>mynetdude: as I said you have to remove some signals
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12:39<mynetdude>seems to work though, I did remove some signals trains would just stop and not go
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12:41<Progman>trains pass a path signal if they find a way to their target (until the next signal) and reserve this path
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13:21<mynetdude>signals are complex in this game, I try to keep 1 or 2 trains per track :P
13:22<planetmaker>how boring ;-)
13:23<planetmaker>1500 trains on a 512^2 map!
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13:39<andythenorth>hi hi
13:40<Terkhen>hi andythenorth
13:40<CIA-6>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19729 /trunk/src/graph_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3793]: The company value graph crashed the game when displaying companies with a huge amount of money.
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13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19730 /trunk/src/lang/ (10 files): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: catalan - 12 changes by arnau
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: croatian - 23 changes by VoyagerOne
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: dutch - 26 changes by habell
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: french - 12 changes by glx
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: german - 23 changes by planetmaker
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14:30<Sacro>zomg a Rubidium on my bug
14:31<@Rubidium>yeah, if you don't flame him... I will
14:32<Sacro>haha
14:33<Sacro>I wanted to flame him when he put RCs in the main release
14:33<Sacro>there's a reason we have openttd-rc in AUR
14:33<Sacro>you can have the stable, -rc and -svn all happily coexisting
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15:04<mynetdude>does anybody know why oil wells have such a short lifespan? Oil rigs stay forever
15:04<mynetdude>or they seem to
15:05<Sacro>oil wells run out
15:07<mynetdude>well ofc, so do coal and woods and iron ore, etc
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15:07<mynetdude>but oil rigs should run out too I think???
15:08<fjb>Oil rigs only explode.
15:09<mynetdude>even with disasters turned off?
15:09<mynetdude>never seen a rig explode yet
15:09<berndj>train A breaks down, blocking a route. train B, immediately behind, gets stuck. in some places they "bounce" between 2 signals until the route clears, but other times they get stuck "waiting for free path" looking the wrong way down a one-way PBS. train A clears and leaves, but train B now (permanently!) obstructs other trains. what am i doing wrong?
15:12<planetmaker>berndj: in principle you do nothing wrong
15:12<planetmaker>with the default settings that's what happens with path signals
15:13<planetmaker>it doesn't happen with block signals
15:13<planetmaker>you could, though, change your settings. I play with settings where trains never turn on their own
15:14<planetmaker> <PublicServer> *** planetmaker has disabled wait_for_pbs_path, wait_twoway_signal, wait_oneway_signal, ai_in_multiplayer; enabled no_servicing_if_no_breakdowns, extra_dynamite, mod_road_rebuild, forbid_90_deg, rail_firstred_twoway_eol and set path_backoff_interval to 1, train_acceleration_model to 1 <-- one or more of those settings
15:14<planetmaker>you can change them in the cfg (only for new games) or via console also for running
15:14<berndj>planetmaker: please tell me how to do that! i just ragequit a game where two trains crashed because one auto-turned between my telling it to reverse and telling it to ignore the next signal!
15:15<planetmaker>disabled means value = 0
15:15<planetmaker>so in the console something like
15:15<planetmaker>set wat_for_pbs_path 0
15:15<planetmaker>and alike for the other signal wait times
15:16<berndj>by console you mean the thing i got when i accidentally pressed '~'? :)
15:16<planetmaker>console is opened with the key left of 1
15:16<planetmaker>probably, yes
15:16<planetmaker>it's ^ for me, though
15:16<berndj>got it. thanks, i'll try it
15:16<planetmaker>you're welcome
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15:18<mynetdude>too bad these options are not available via GUI ;)
15:19<mynetdude>though I am sure the GUI would get too cluttered with every little option, I hate console
15:19<planetmaker>there's no need to change them normally
15:20<planetmaker>and if you do it wrong, you'll severely screw up your pathfinder(s) and then come back crying "why does xyz not work" or "why does train 0815 do weired things" ;-)
15:20<planetmaker>it has a reason to not have everything available in the GUI. Though possibly a weak reason.
15:22<berndj>looks like my issue is FS#2274. good to know i'm not the only one!
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15:40<mynetdude>planetmaker that's not always a weak reason, you do have valid points
15:40<mynetdude>but FWIW when things get really really effing screwed up I just start over and/or reinstall depending on how badly messed up it is
15:42<@Belugas>wow...
15:43*Belugas just wrote a static constant array of multiple array in delphi...
15:43<@Belugas>looks cool...
15:45*Sacro ponders learning delphi
15:46<frosch123>what does it contain? the cases of the shedules test procedures and expected output? :p
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15:50<@Belugas>http://paste.openttd.org/225718
15:51<@Belugas>tadam!
15:51<@Belugas>actually, it's more a matrix of supported operations per gift card processor
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16:09<@Belugas>hehhe... topic killer :D
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16:14<frosch123>eddi and pm are selling unfinished features :p
16:15<planetmaker>hehe :-P
16:15<frosch123>http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/spritepicker.png <- does that comply to the marketing promises?
16:16<frosch123>hmm, oh the caption uses thousand separators :o
16:16<planetmaker>looks promising, frosch123 :-)
16:17<frosch123>I guess also adding the grfname would make it too big
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16:19<planetmaker>frosch123: it might be in a box below the buttons?
16:19<planetmaker>it would make sense to have the grf name
16:19<frosch123>cool, you can drive the trucks on firs industries with the aligment tool \o/
16:19<planetmaker>:-D
16:21<frosch123>[22:19] <planetmaker> frosch123: it might be in a box below the buttons? <- hmm, it is already in the caption?
16:21<planetmaker>frosch123: you said it'd be too long there?
16:21<frosch123>i meant per sprite in the list
16:21<planetmaker>ah. No, the name needs not go there, too.
16:21<planetmaker>Agreed
16:22<planetmaker>at one place it's sufficient and one can easily click through those few
16:23<andythenorth>works for me
16:23<andythenorth>the whole 'sprite picker' concept that is :)
16:23<frosch123>hmm, the sheep are only one sprite :(
16:23*andythenorth replaces trams with trucks
16:24<planetmaker>lol @ frosch's sheep
16:25<frosch123>and the flock pulls the fence with them
16:25<andythenorth>well at least we're efficient on sprites :P
16:25*andythenorth forsees a whole new feature in openttd: animate the landscape yourself
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16:27*andythenorth thinks "but no seriously, more narrow gauge trains are needed"
16:27<andythenorth>my canset NG diesels are getting very old :(
16:27<SpComb>animated sprite positions?
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16:35<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r19731 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Add: Spritepicker to sprite alignment tool.
16:37<andythenorth>:)
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16:40<planetmaker>\o/
16:40*planetmaker needs to pull trunk
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16:41<andythenorth>OpenTTD comedy: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/dumb_placement.png
16:41<andythenorth>one for the 'not worth even trying to fix' file
16:41<planetmaker>:-D
16:41<andythenorth>The game placed the steel mill just recently.
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16:42*andythenorth considers abolishing the power station in FIRS. It really is pointless
16:43<planetmaker>hm... coal?
16:43<andythenorth>goes to the steel mill
16:44<andythenorth>are there any sane reasons why make would use less CPU in a hg checkout compared to svn?
16:45<jack>no, cpus are insane
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16:50<SpComb>andythenorth: how much less?
16:52<andythenorth>not sure, haven't run objective tests, but less
16:52*Terkhen is happier since he uses distcc and ccache
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16:54<andythenorth>frosch123: sprite picker == win
16:54<frosch123>:)
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16:59<Ammler>[22:40] <andythenorth> OpenTTD comedy: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/dumb_placement.png <-- same issue with airport near town
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17:02*andythenorth needs an intercontinental airport just for ENSP, and terraforms appropriately :P
17:03<Terkhen>wow
17:04<Terkhen>I usually use RVs
17:04<Terkhen>big map?
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17:05<andythenorth>nope
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17:11<@Belugas>bye all
17:11<@peter1138>g'night
17:11<@Belugas>"au revoir"
17:11<@Belugas>hehehe
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17:23<Eddi|zuHause>cargodist probably helps with supplies
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17:38<OwenS>Hmm... any chance we will get one way tram lines at some point? I don't even care about overtaking, it would just make things more efficient
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18:04<Eddi|zuHause>how should that work?
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>once upon a time it was specifically decided against one-way tram lines
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know why, though
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18:05<@Rubidium>not enough map bits
18:05<@Rubidium>and trams not being built by towns
18:08<OwenS>Aah
18:08<OwenS>Shame
18:08<OwenS>Trams picking the wrong route and blocking my trunk lines is evil
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18:49<Visitor_58876>just an off the wall question anybody seen simutrans?
18:50-!-Chruker [~no@port113.ds1-vj.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit []
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>no, nobody here has ever seen simutrans
18:51<Visitor_58876>oh ok I won't ask why
18:51<Visitor_58876>anyway
18:51<Visitor_58876>I'm just bored so I'll leave ya'll alone
18:51<KenjiE20>lol
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you want to ask a real question next time
18:51-!-Visitor_58876 is now known as mynetdude
18:51<mynetdude>yeah wouldn't that be the truth
18:58<Eddi|zuHause>truth is overrated
18:58<Eddi|zuHause>and lying to tell the truth is called "irony"
19:05<mynetdude>haha
19:10<Terkhen>good night
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19:25<Nite_Owl>Hello all
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---Logclosed Tue Apr 27 00:00:10 2010