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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-04-30

---Logopened Fri Apr 30 00:00:18 2010
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01:52<SmatZ>morning dihedral
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02:33<dih>who was the author (and what was the real title) of that 'building a language' talk?
02:34<dih>i think it was a link Rubidium or TrueBrain posted
02:34<dih>like a year ago :-D
02:35<@Rubidium>Guy Steele
02:36<dih>thank you :-)
02:56<dih>does anybody know of a way to find out which applications memory is actaully in swap?
02:59<Ammler>ps axuff maybe
03:01<dih>and by which col would i tell it's using swap?
03:04<Ammler>is the swap used by app?
03:05<dih>we have a few servers and on 3 of them, nearly all ram is used, + a good 2GB of swap
03:05<dih>and that sucks
03:06<dih>and i'd like to find out what that is!
03:06<@Rubidium>first look at RSS (the real amount of used memory)
03:06<@Rubidium>but that doesn't tell anything about swap
03:06<@Rubidium>furthermore... how much memory is used for buffers/cache?
03:07<planetmaker>dih: the state keyword to ps might help
03:07<planetmaker> The state is given by a sequence of characters, for example, ``RWNA''. The first character indicates
03:07<planetmaker> the run state of the process: (...)
03:07<planetmaker> W The process is swapped out.
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03:08<dih>yesterday the amount of 'free' ram was below 40 MB
03:09<@Rubidium>so a little over 4 GB for applications and a little under 2 GB used for caches
03:09<@Rubidium>s/used/can be used/
03:09<dih>thing that bugs me though, is that 2GB are in ram
03:10<dih>and if i knew what that was, i might be a bit more ok with that
03:10<dih>planetmaker: i'll give it a shot
03:10<@peter1138>in swap, you mean?
03:10<@peter1138> total used free shared buffers cached
03:10<@peter1138>Mem: 4091844 4026512 65332 0 422880 3072176
03:10<@peter1138>-/+ buffers/cache: 531456 3560388
03:10<@peter1138>Swap: 3911672 816 3910856
03:10<@peter1138>hurr :D
03:11<@Rubidium>what is so bad about (unused) application data being moved to swap?
03:11<@peter1138>everything, when you don't understand why :)
03:11<@peter1138>clearly swap is the best place for it in dih's case
03:12<dih>i cannot imagine it being 'unused' - i can rather imagine it being put there as there was no other option!
03:12<@peter1138>if it was in ram, then you wouldn't have anywhere near the buffers/cache size, and it would be slow
03:12<@peter1138>it must be unused
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03:12<dih>and my normal assumption would be, that caches are dropped before stuff is moved into swap
03:12<@peter1138>if it was used, again, it wouldn't be swapped out with that much buffers/cache available
03:14<@Rubidium>dih: wrong assumption then... it'll move pages that are idle to swap to make space for caches; it's faster to get those unused pages back from swap than to get an IO storm trying to read all the files you want to read
03:14<dih>well, at least that is good to know
03:16<dih>planetmaker: W paging (not valid since the 2.6.xx kernel)
03:16<@peter1138>you can show it with top
03:17<@peter1138>although it mayn't be accurate
03:17<dih>i can show it in top? per application?
03:17<@peter1138>cos i have a process showing at 71MB in swap, but only 816KB of swap used :P
03:18<@peter1138>yeah, press f then toggle swap
03:18<@peter1138>i think it's lying
03:18<@peter1138>it's just show virt - res
03:18<@peter1138>which isn't actually swap
03:19<@peter1138>it should work in your case though
03:19<dih>yeah - sweet!
03:19<dih>it shows every httpd process with swap ^^
03:20<dih>between 480m and 495m
03:22<@peter1138>yeah, but that might still be lying
03:23<dih>probably is
03:23<dih>the sys aint got 400GB of swap :-D
03:24<dih>20 threads showing that amount of swap to each of them :-P
03:25<dih>my collegue was hoping memcached was being swapped
03:25<dih>... nope
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03:25<dih>and they configured it to use 2GB
03:25<dih>i am so happy... NOT
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03:27<dih>that would mean arount 50% of RAM goes to memcache - 1GB used for caches ...
03:28<@peter1138>your paste shows that you have 2GB of buffers/caches
03:28<dih>what is the average iowait on
03:28<@peter1138>so memcached isn't using 2GB RAM
03:29<@peter1138>17775 petern 20 0 149g 1984 304 R 99 0.1 0:10.42 149g h
03:29<@peter1138>yeah, 149GB swap ;)
03:30<@Rubidium>dih: absolutely no clue
03:30<dih>none the less, thanks ;-)
03:30<@peter1138>just demonstrating how that swap field lies
03:30<dih>i know it lies ;-)
03:30<dih>top showed about 500m for memcached
03:30<dih>and i guess that would be a lie too
03:31<@peter1138>so anyway
03:31<dih>but it was also showing 45% MEM being used for that process
03:31<@peter1138>have you decided it doesn't matter yet?
03:31<@peter1138>RES is important
03:31<@peter1138>having memory for large buffers/cache is important
03:31<@peter1138>actual swap used, not important
03:31<dih>it sucks, if you have to wait about 2 seconds on the live server for a uncached webpage
03:31<dih>and less than 1 on the dev server
03:32<@peter1138>right, but that 2 seconds is nothing to do with your swap
03:32<dih>i dislike the fact that we have over 10% iowait average
03:32<dih>and over 50% on the db servers
03:33<@peter1138>get faster io ;)
03:33<dih>db servers are quad core iirc
03:33<dih>managed hosting - it sucks!
03:33<dih>i hate it - why on earth did this company ever do that!
03:33<@peter1138>faster cpus == harddrives slower, relatively == %age higher
03:34<Alberth>exactly my thoughts :)
03:34<@Rubidium>dih: oh, ...%wa? nearly 0 at the moment
03:34<dih>yes, thank you ^^
03:34<dih>the dev server is a vm :-P
03:34<@peter1138>"managed" hosting doesn't say anything about what the hardware is
03:34<@peter1138>could be an old IDE drive ;p
03:35<dih>peter1138: it says that i cannot manage it myself
03:35<dih>and i'd love to
03:35<dih>every config change i want, i need to request in a ticket :-S
03:35<@peter1138>that's so they know what's going on
03:36<dih>they are so abso-fucking-stupid
03:36<@peter1138>you can't have two sets of admins managing things with different ideas on how to do so
03:36<@peter1138>that too
03:36<dih>sure you cannot ^^
03:36<dih>you would not believe what a pain it is, to ask them to do something!
03:37<@Rubidium>dih: now it's roughtly 20% with a peak at 50%... guess what I did
03:37<dih>updatedb? :-D
03:37<dih>du -sh /
03:37<dih>find -t f / :-P
03:38<@Rubidium>nah, just started a compile farm run... 3 VMs starting an OS simultaniously
03:38<dih>tell me, Rubidium, what did you do?
03:38<@Rubidium>now they're all compiling it's back at <1%
03:38<dih>lucky you
03:39<@Rubidium>still ~20% idle (yay for using only 3 cores for the CF)
03:40<@Rubidium>for some odd reason the load jumped up a little over 3 "points" too (from ~0.15)
03:40<dih>munin shows some interesting stats ^^
03:44<dih>what is swap_cache?
03:48<Alberth>wild guess: pages being swapped in or out?
03:51<Alberth>You should read a book that explains the design and implementation of the kernel
03:51<Alberth>Don't know whether it exists for a Linux kernel. I know for a fact that it exists for the BSD kernel.
03:52<dih>i am just not used to haveing stuff in swap ^^
03:53<dih>esp. not _that_ much
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04:01<dih>@seen Yexo
04:01<@DorpsGek>dih: Yexo was last seen in #openttd 6 days, 15 hours, 47 minutes, and 47 seconds ago: <Yexo> the self scope of the object you clicked on
04:01<dih>Yexo: ping ^^
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04:15<Terkhen>good morning
04:16<@Rubidium>it's morning already?
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04:26<Terkhen>good question... I feel as tired as I was when I went to sleep
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07:54<dune>do anyone know a place to download a copypaste-patch that doesent need to be compiled and works with openttd 1.0 (im a lazy windows user) :p
07:55<planetmaker>to my knowledge such place does not exist
07:57<dune>i guess i jaut have to try compiling then.. :s
07:58<dune> <-- the latest diff is thatone in the last post?
07:59<@peter1138>it's a patch to the source code, it needs to be compiled...
07:59<@peter1138>or you find a binary
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08:02<dune>i guess i just wait for a binary.
08:02<planetmaker>hahaha :-)
08:02<planetmaker>for a non-supported patch that'll be quite long, I assume
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08:04<dune>bah :p thx for beeing so optimistic ^^
08:05<dune>downloading TortoiseSVN then..
08:05<berndj>is there a nice place where building openttd is documented? i tried once but got stuck when it wanted all sorts of weird tools like "renum" (but apparently NOT the "renum" you get from apt-get install renum)
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08:10<planetmaker>berndj, (nfo)renum is not required for OpenTTD
08:10<planetmaker>it's a tool to build (new)grf
08:11<planetmaker> <-- berndj
08:11<planetmaker>that's the requirements listed
08:11<planetmaker>a compiler should ship with your linux by default
08:12<Ammler>there is no other renum than nforenum, afaik
08:14<berndj>planetmaker, i think it was while i was trying to build opengfx
08:14<planetmaker>berndj, yes, it's a requirement for OpenGFX, sure
08:14<planetmaker>that's a bundle of grfs.
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09:06<Jupix>do the wood & steel wagons share the same cc mask?
09:06<planetmaker>they are different sprites
09:07<Jupix>ok, thx
09:07<Sacro> :\
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12:07<Eddi|zuHause>... hm, apparently tomorrow is a big star trek marathon...
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>like 15 TOS episodes and 3 movies...
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12:14<+tokai>Eddi|zuHause: Are people really that bored to watch that?
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea... just noticed this while skimming the EPG
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>plus, everybody outside the target group of star trek is drunk and fighting with the police anyway :p
12:16<Eddi|zuHause> <-- related news ;)
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>court in berlin rules that throwing an empty beer bottle or a stone at the police is not an assault with a weapon
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12:25<+tokai>Eddi|zuHause: Sounds almost like an invitation to do so. :)
12:25<Alberth>tomorrow is your chance :)
12:26<Alberth>assuming you are not bored enough to watch ST tomorrow :p
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13:26<andythenorth>hi hi
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13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19740 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 16 changes by josesun
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: hungarian - 26 changes by IPG
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: indonesian - 18 changes by prof
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: irish - 640 changes by tem
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 1 changes by Phreeze
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13:58*andythenorth wonders about patching stations so they act like depots
13:59<andythenorth>not so much for train building, but for servicing, and above all, refitting
13:59<andythenorth>train / vehicles /s
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14:00<Alberth>it would get done instantly? then it seems a lot of work for little gain imho.
14:01<andythenorth>might add a whole new dimension to routing though
14:01<andythenorth>go to A, unload, refit, go to B, run empty to C, refit again etc
14:02<Alberth>oh, it is a station as well. yes, that would make a difference.
14:02<Alberth>although I wonder how many people do refitting in their orders
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14:02<andythenorth>I find it a bit weird that refitting by orders is possible but nobody bothers
14:03<andythenorth>I think it's because (a) it costs too much in some newgrfs (b) it's a hassle routing to depots
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14:05<Alberth>I cannot even come up with a useful example to have more than one cargo at the same network get combined in that way.
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14:06<@Rubidium>Alberth: steel+town station <-> factory station
14:06<andythenorth>it's standard routing behaviour in railroad tycoon
14:06<Alberth>what about the cargo ratios?
14:07<andythenorth>doesn't matter?
14:07<@Rubidium>less steel per wagon than goods, so if you don't full load at the factory it'd work quite well
14:07<frosch123>you cannot properly use "full load" ad the steel station
14:07<frosch123>so unless you have really lot of production, the rating dropps to much
14:08<andythenorth>aslo there would be a problem getting the load if the industry processes instantly
14:08<Alberth>nor at factories that don't do instant production
14:09<andythenorth>well it would be more realistic :P
14:09<Alberth>in reality, somebody from the factory gives you a call "today we have no more cargo for you" :)
14:10<andythenorth>setting % load amounts would be useful?
14:10<Alberth>that only reduces the problem, it does not eliminate it, I think
14:11<Alberth>ie I have to make a good estimate of the percentage
14:11<Alberth>we would need something like 'no cargo for x ticks' -> leave.
14:12<andythenorth>perhaps 'stations are like depots' is a bad idea :)
14:12<andythenorth>but % cargo loaded might not be
14:12<Alberth>perhaps refit orders is a bad idea :)
14:12<andythenorth>seems a bit silly to be running empty ships around the place
14:13<andythenorth>for example
14:13<andythenorth>and same for freight aircraft
14:13<Alberth>can we make a container?
14:14<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause suggested it
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14:14<andythenorth>how though?
14:14<andythenorth>I can't even begin to see how it would work :o
14:15<Alberth>a factory that takes a cargo and produces a container, and a factory^(-1) would be one option.
14:15<Alberth>more advanced is to literally store cargo in the container in the sense that you still know what went in when unpacking.
14:17<andythenorth>so vehicles could handle multiple cargos inside 'containers'
14:18<andythenorth>and containers wouldn't have to be 20' or 40' TEU steel containers? They could just be a 'box' with certain class and capacity?
14:18<Alberth>well, container is a well-known standardized transport medium for ships and aircraft (though the containers are different :p )
14:19<Alberth>if you generalize the idea, probably yes.
14:19<andythenorth>I am trying to understand if this works pre 1950s :) e.g. with wooden crates
14:19<Alberth>I didn't claim it would work for '50s vehicles too ;)
14:20<Alberth>all packet delivery companies basically do the same, except the containers have no uniform size.
14:23<andythenorth>Is it technically possible?
14:23<andythenorth>I kind of like the idea
14:26<frosch123>to cite a common suggestion: allow building warehouses at the station which keep the rating up as long as they are not filled
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14:30<Alberth>'have a warehouse, but don't use it' :p
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14:31<Alberth>whether it is technically possible, I don't know. Probably not atm, or you must be able to do it in newgrf entirely.
14:32<Alberth>if you start shuffling here, it may be better to make a bigger step, and remove the '1 cargo only' limitation.
14:33<Alberth>but that is also just a wild suggestion :p
14:33<andythenorth>I liked the 'refit at stations' idea because (unlike many ideas) it is about transportation and logistics
14:33<andythenorth>back loads and efficient routing are important for transport companies
14:33<frosch123>i guess cb 145 could be extended, if it were stationpart specific or so...
14:34<frosch123>what do you mean with '1 cargo only'?
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14:35<frosch123>andythenorth: why does it make a big difference for you to send the train to a depot between unload and load?
14:35<Alberth>there is not a '1 cargo only' limit for vehicles?
14:35<frosch123>not for trains, and not for articulated road vehicles
14:36<frosch123>but they are hard to handle as you cannot refit individual parts
14:36<Alberth>in newgrf, or is it a gui problem?
14:37<frosch123>at gui mostly, though newgrf likely rely on being refitted the homogeneous
14:38<frosch123>e.g. vehicle might look different for different cargos, which will look very wrong if the parts are directly connected
14:39<frosch123>however for trains you can detach wagons, refit them at some other engine, and reattach them (though grfs might refuse that). but not for orders :)
14:40<frosch123>(though you can likely revert the refitting if the newgrf rejects reattaching
14:40*Alberth envisions a depot/station where the train gets split and coupled again
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14:42*Rubidium wonders whether Alberth ever read the suggestions forum/feature requests on the tracker
14:44<Alberth>those texts mention 'realism', and start at the point where I am wondering about feasibility
14:45<frosch123>Alberth: if you can envision a gui for refitting some wagons only manually in depot and per order :)
14:45<andythenorth>frosch123: maybe I should try playing a game using 'refit in depot' again. I dunno, it just seems annoying though
14:46<frosch123>to refit articulated parts differently we would likely need some vehicle flag allowing that
14:47<frosch123>hmm, otoh, maybe andy, maybe the vehicle refuses to stop a second time at the same station
14:48<frosch123>but well...
14:48*frosch123 << food
14:48<andythenorth>me too
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15:22<TrueBrain>why do OpenTTD people want to invite me on their facebook?
15:23<ccfreak2k>Because you are a true brain?
15:23<PeterT>are you looking for a serious answer?
15:27<Alberth>you are their last hope :p
15:27<TrueBrain>lol @ Alberth :)
15:28<Alberth>oh sorry, that was LinkedIn :)
15:29<frosch123>are you talking about that old stupid mail, or is someone trying it again?
15:29<TrueBrain>LinkedIn is on my ignore list
15:29<TrueBrain>but the facebook one was new
15:31<frosch123>hmm, maybe i should ignore the forward from openttd. iirc i never received a serious one.
15:32<TrueBrain>lol :)
15:32<TrueBrain>I have 2 to 3 mails a week which require my attention
15:33<frosch123>poor you :) i only get scam and those stupid "why are you not in my social network"-stuff :(
15:33<TrueBrain>we should trace those people and punish them
15:35<Alberth>The 'others' row in the financial overview window seems like a good candidate
15:36<frosch123>for punishing?
15:36<Alberth>sure, 50% other costs as a first warning
15:37<Alberth>(of your bank balance at max loan)
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16:01<Turgid>What do the colored dots next to each vehicle mean, in the vehicle list?
16:01<frosch123>profit last year
16:02<Turgid>What's the difference between a grey dot and a green dot?
16:02<Turgid>I mean obviously green is more, but what's the cutoff?
16:02<frosch123>grey means the engine is not old enough to be considered for profit calcuation
16:02<Turgid>Oh, awesome. Thanks.
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16:09<andythenorth>so would 'containers' be a cargo? (some kind of containing the actual cargo?)
16:10<andythenorth>or would it be a magic refit to the actual cargo?
16:10<andythenorth>oops 'some kind of *wrapper* containing the actual cargo'
16:11<andythenorth>the idea Alberth was pondering
16:12*andythenorth can't visualise how it works in gameplay
16:12<Alberth>(08:16:13 PM) Alberth: can we make a container? <-- I just asked a question :)
16:12<andythenorth>ah, but what is a container?
16:13<andythenorth> do players use a container?
16:13*Alberth ponders
16:13<andythenorth>some industries produce goods pre-packaged in 'containers'? Seems a bit sucky
16:14<Alberth>I bet many industries in China do that
16:14<Alberth>but in general, yeah
16:14<andythenorth>if we have the concept of a generic container, it seems silly to exclude cargos like chemicals
16:14<Alberth>for eg ships it makes sense to have them as a cargo
16:14*frosch123 can think of three solutions, one more useless than the other :) 1. draw containers on the vehicle and refit to whatever you want. 2. add container-compatible cargo class to restrict refitting. 3. add container cargo and let the player make sure that containers from food plant are not transported to the vehicle factory
16:15<andythenorth>a special station tile that 'containerises' cargos?
16:15*theholyduck was reading with 1 eye half open
16:15<theholyduck>and thought you were talking about video formats
16:15<Alberth>at OpenTTD, with andythenorth ?
16:15<theholyduck>Alberth, well i hang in like 8 multimedia channels
16:15<andythenorth>frosch123: I think this might be more the concept of generic containers than ISO containers (steel boxes)?
16:15<theholyduck>i forgot what channel i was looking at
16:15<theholyduck>and when people start spouting the word container and player
16:15<theholyduck>i think multimedia
16:16<andythenorth>I can draw containers & figure out generic refitting, but I am thinking of something that works for box cars, gondolas, delivery vans etc
16:16<andythenorth>the point is to allow mixed cargos on vehicles that don't currently allow that
16:17<Alberth>the question seems to be where does packing/unpacking take place?
16:17<frosch123>so, basically ships, right?
16:17<andythenorth>maybe airplanes
16:17<andythenorth>aeroplanes /s
16:17<Alberth>ship-planes :)
16:17<andythenorth>ekranoplan :P
16:17<andythenorth>hovercraft :P
16:18<andythenorth>hydrofoil :P
16:18<andythenorth>all ship-planes
16:18<Alberth>container raft :)
16:18<andythenorth>I would like to be able to run general merchandise trains back and forth between cities
16:18<Alberth>for some cases, you want to do it at a station/dock
16:18<andythenorth>but this idea could produce a huge problem for actually routing the cargo
16:19<Alberth>but if you want to transport the containers as-is, that should also be an option without explicit visit to some factory
16:19<andythenorth>special station tile...
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16:20<Alberth>it is a form of 'station facilities'
16:20<frosch123>hmm. actually you could turn the cargotype of a vehicle into a bitmask to accept multiple cargos, and store the actualy cargotype in the cargopacket
16:20<andythenorth>so I have 'containers' of chemicals waiting at location A. Train arrives with empty wagons for 'containers', next destination is B. But B doesn't accept chemicals, I want to route those to C.
16:20<andythenorth>this is a problem
16:21<frosch123>so you could refit a boxcar to carry 30 crates of food, goods or other stuff in any ratio
16:21<frosch123>or you could refit a ship to carry any cargo with "container-compatible"-cargoclass in any ratio at the same time
16:21<andythenorth>I think it's worthwhile, but the routing problem troubles me
16:22<Alberth>the simpler case of transporting a container from a dock to a city, and have it there unfold to 'goods' or so is already a problem
16:22<Alberth>ie and not unfold at the dock
16:22<andythenorth>so this has multiple problems :)
16:22<andythenorth>well maybe it's an interesting problem
16:22<frosch123>so you would need to specify in the orders which cargotypes to load/unload
16:23<andythenorth>or have cargo dist routing packets
16:23<Alberth>what if we always pack/unpack at stations? we can simply repack to a container if needed.
16:23<frosch123>Alberth: but it would always reload all types
16:23<Alberth>good point
16:23<andythenorth>it's the same problem as has existed for years with transfers
16:24*andythenorth just loves building two stations for passenger transfer systems (one drop, one pickup)
16:24<frosch123>but as i understand andy he wants to collect food and goods at A, drive to B, unload food, drive to C, and unload goods there
16:24<andythenorth>frosch123: not specifically
16:25<Alberth>you'd need a bitset of allowed cargoes in a container
16:25<andythenorth>go to A, load steel, go to B, unload steel, go to C load scrap metal, go to A would do me
16:26<Alberth>always automatic unpacking at stations prevent problems where you need to know where the container is going to at the moment you create it
16:27<Alberth>(ie I cannot combine steel and goods, because at the other end, it gets loaded to different destinations)
16:27<andythenorth>seems to me that 'containers' are just vehicles that refit to whatever is waiting?
16:28<andythenorth>(limited by their refit classes etc)
16:28<Alberth>in a sense, except they accept all possible size combinations.
16:28<frosch123>andythenorth: i guess rather load different types of cargo in the same vehicle
16:29<andythenorth>for the ship/plane case different types is way better
16:29<andythenorth>for the truck / boxcar case, 'magic' refit is ok
16:29<frosch123>hmm, the ratio could be limited by the "load amount"
16:30<andythenorth>so the orders would specify possible refits & ratios?
16:30<frosch123>i guess extending the vehicle variables and cargopackets would be no problem. but maybe extending the (packet) order struct and the gui :s
16:31<frosch123>andythenorth: maybe the order could say "load any of a, b and c" resp. "unload all of a, b and c"
16:32<frosch123>though you get into trouble if you want to unload cargo a, transfer cargo b, unload c only when accepted, and keep d :p
16:32<andythenorth>otherwise a good idea though frosch123
16:32<andythenorth>I can think of real cases for it
16:33<andythenorth>it might make timetabling interesting for general freight trains / ships
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16:34<andythenorth>picking up farm cargos. Delivering food and goods to towns
16:34<frosch123>well, you could also send such a train to a industry, unload it, and let it wait timetabled to load the produced cargo or so...
16:35<andythenorth>run food from one town, pickup goods, run them back
16:35<Alberth>what if we have several load/unload orders underneath each other at the same station and we do them all together?
16:35<frosch123>but well, i guess you need to restrict it to only some cargos. it might be too easy if you can transport any cargo in universal wagons
16:36<Alberth>I was thinking that too
16:36<andythenorth>has to be by class at minimum
16:36<frosch123>Alberth: sounds fine, you could also put conditional orders inbetween them
16:36<frosch123>but you would still need to add a cargo type
16:38*andythenorth feels like he needs a diagram :P we've discussed quite a few ideas above
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17:01<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19741 /branches/1.0/ (14 files in 7 dirs):
17:01<CIA-6>OpenTTD: [1.0] -Backport from trunk:
17:01<CIA-6>OpenTTD: - Fix: Crash when using restart via rcon (r19722)
17:01<CIA-6>OpenTTD: - Fix: Leaking a file descriptor [FS#3785] (r19695)
17:01<CIA-6>OpenTTD: - Fix: Crash when the music/graphics metadata files were unreadable [FS#3774] (r19674)
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>release in an hour?
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17:14<Alberth>KouDy: do you get paid to lose connection and spam the channel with a commercial?
17:14<@Rubidium>Alberth: no, hydrairc is just an extremely annoying IRC client
17:15<Alberth>ah, they build it into the software. How clever
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17:24<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19742 /tags/1.0.1/ (9 files in 4 dirs): -Release: 1.0.1
17:25<planetmaker>kudos :-)
17:25*Sacro flags arch out of date
17:25<@Rubidium>~40-45 minutes till binaries
17:26<TrueBrain>baking in the oven
17:26<TrueBrain>they smell good
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17:28<dih>those smell good too when put in the oven :-P
17:28<TrueBrain>I wonder what would happen if I turn up the heat of these ovens
17:28<TrueBrain>would they burn the binaries?
17:29<TrueBrain>sounds like a new release method :)
17:29<Alberth>nah, you just get garbled bits, and fried cpus :)
17:29<TrueBrain>the latter is what worries me :p
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>Spoilin' nice fish. Give it to us raw and w-r-r-riggling
17:32<Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: that's available by cloning
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17:47<Nite_Owl>Hello all
17:47<SmatZ>hello Nite_Owl
17:48<Nite_Owl>Hello SmatZ
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18:14<TrueBrain>My usual 3-month-banner in this channel: <- OpenDUNE 0.3 is released :)
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18:20<@Rubidium>Wizzleby: not sure how much you care about the Gentoo package, but I've got the feeling bug#317911 is caused by Gentoo importing a broken libsdl patch from Debian
18:26*frosch123 masked media-libs/libsdl 1.2.14-r2
18:26<frosch123>and yes, r1 and r2 differ exactly in that debian patch
18:27<Wizzleby>hmm. well I can't fix that myself, but I can make sure the bug goes to the right people who can
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18:31<Terkhen>good night
18:31<SmatZ>good night, Terkhen
18:33<Wizzleby>wrt the openttd gentoo package, I sort of picked it up when 1.0.0 was in beta. games herd was not interested in it till it hit releae, but people wanted it. Not being a dev myself, I took it upon myself to maintain it in an overlay. The main ebuild for openttd needed (and still does) some work though
18:35<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: I hope the server can take two releases on a day :)
18:36-!-KritiK [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:37<Wizzleby>mostly stuff that I need to ask you folks about: like iconv, whether it is needed or not under linux. The configure script skips checking for it on a linux host, but can be overridden (which the previous maintainer decided to allow for with an iconv USE flag). Some users have had bugs with this setup and certain versions of glibc, where iconv pops up errors to stderr about being unable to read convert some character or another
18:37<Wizzleby> in some file that happened to be in the dir where they ran openttd
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18:38<@Rubidium>gentoo is the origin of the configure part that actually allows iconv to be selected for linux
18:39<@Rubidium>I am not aware of ANY other linux distribution ever even asking about iconv
18:39<+glx>why use iconv when you can use utf-8 natively ;)
18:40<Wizzleby>huh. Kind of ironic that I'm here now then, asking what point it could possibly have
18:41*Wizzleby only started with gentoo within the past year, so, really knows nothing about what whoever was the maintainer for openttd was thinking
18:41<@Rubidium>neither do I know what they are/were thinking
18:41<Wizzleby>glx: that's what I was wondering about it
18:42<@Rubidium>but I seem to remember something about non-ascii/non-utf8 filenames
18:45<Wizzleby>Rubidium: it does not appear to have an explicit maintainer these days. not many folks in the games herd, though I did find the bug where the patch was added, initially in the portage tree, and I recognize the guy and can ask him
18:45<Wizzleby>s:the guy:the guy who attached the patch to the bug:
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18:50<Wizzleby>it seems that the original maintainers for openttd retired as gentoo devs around 2008
18:50<@Rubidium>Wizzleby: <- that's Debian bug report about the broken patch
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18:51<@Rubidium>anyhow, my amount of trust in the Gentoo games/security maintainer is *very* low
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18:56<GEORGE_W_BUSH>anyone want to play lol
18:56<Wizzleby>Rubidium: wrt the games herd, its only 4 people large these days, and with a high load of packages, many of them very troublesome to maintain. As far as herds go, I think it needs some love, and work. I can't speak wrt the QA/security team as I am not yet familiar with many of them
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18:59<@Rubidium>Wizzleby: security... they make CVE entries for unexploitable bugs yet fail to see the real exploits, they kinda fail to adequately handle exploits (0.7.5 is after 4.5 months STILL not marked stable leaving a known network exploitable OpenTTD) and they manage to make incorrect CVE entries (telling it's fixed in some version when it clearly isn't)
19:01<@Rubidium>Debian, that doesn't have security support, has released a fixed/patched version to their stable version (though via a point release which meant waiting for a month)
19:02<@Rubidium>(it doesn't have security support for OpenTTD as it was in non-free at that time)
19:03<@Rubidium>Fedora pushed a new version within reasonable time to their stable releases
19:03<Wizzleby>Rubidium: I can acknowledge those as issues (ones I would consider serious too). Best I can give you as a response is that as I complete the process of becoming a dev myself (and with an eventual goal of getting into the applicable teams for security and QA) that I'll do my best to address those shortcomings
19:03<Wizzleby>For whatever that's worth
19:04<theholyduck>Rubidium, my trust in gentoo maintainers
19:04<theholyduck>is non existant
19:04<Wizzleby>I can also try and poke people in the immediate future about getting 0.7.3 masked for removal
19:04<theholyduck>a good 40% of all the package problems i encounter in my days of linux support
19:04<theholyduck>are gentoo related
19:04<theholyduck>with most of the rest being ubuntu and its bastard children
19:05<@Rubidium>Wizzleby: FYI, 1.0.1 has a bunch of security fixes too
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19:06<@Rubidium>theholyduck: ghehe... Ubuntu... with pulseaudio and also poor security support (I even fracking made a patch for each of their versions; never going to do that again)
19:06<theholyduck>gentoo is infact the only distro i know that refuses to remove a package because its unmaintained
19:06<theholyduck>as in literally
19:06<theholyduck>they have given the reason
19:06<theholyduck>"we wont remove this package because nobody maintains i"
19:06<theholyduck>*maintains it
19:07<theholyduck>stuff like that make me want to stab in the night
19:07<Wizzleby>Rubidium: I'm preparing 1.0.1 in overlay currently, will see about filing an expedited security stable bug wrt it
19:07<theholyduck>Rubidium, well the 1 principle advantage of ubuntu, is that while they have alot of package issues
19:07<Sacro>Rubidium: arch-nullsfk has gone
19:07<theholyduck>i can point an ubuntu user at a forum post
19:07<theholyduck>and 9 times out of 10
19:07<theholyduck>they can copy paste the instructions to fix the problem
19:07<theholyduck>trying to talk a gentoo user through compiling packages by hand to fix their broken distro ones
19:07<@Rubidium>Sacro: I know
19:08<theholyduck>is like trying to do dancing on stilts with rollerblades on the end
19:08<Wizzleby>theholyduck: for a long time, there was no team in gentoo whose focus was to remove dead packages. There is now though
19:08<theholyduck>its all going to end in tears and broken pelvis
19:08<theholyduck>*and a
19:10<theholyduck>Wizzleby, the worst thing about gentoo problems though, are the users that come to you for help.
19:10<theholyduck>heck, the rise in populairty of gentoo is why i stopped general linux support and dedicated myself to multimedia
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19:11*theholyduck shakes his fists at gentoo
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19:11<Wizzleby>theholyduck: I must be lucky, so far the support I've done with it hasn't been among my worst tech support experiences
19:12<theholyduck>Wizzleby, also, you occationally see the completely nonsescial
19:12<theholyduck>a couple of years back
19:12<theholyduck>i was trying to figure out why this guys mplayer wasnt showing .ass subtitles
19:13<theholyduck>and after hours of poking around, it turns out that back then, to enable libass in mplayer
19:13<@Rubidium>because he didn't have the ARSE useflag
19:13<theholyduck>you hadd to USE = SRT
19:13<theholyduck>wich makes marginal sense at best
19:13<theholyduck>they fixed that relativly recently though
19:14<theholyduck>but still, mislabeled useflags like that, or mandatory deps marked as optional
19:14<theholyduck>its a minefiel
19:14<@peter1138>fuck the mother fucker!
19:15<@peter1138>sorry, just watched tim minchin's pope song
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19:15<Wizzleby>well, for my purposes I enjoy it too much to discard it, and so would rather actually help fix the issues.
19:16<@Rubidium>peter1138: wouldn't that be "fuck the altar boy fucker"?
19:16<theholyduck>i'd rather they ditched it and invented/implemented a from source packagemanager that worked consitently
19:16<@peter1138>not the pope himself, heh
19:16<@peter1138>at least, i assuem
19:16<theholyduck>then only let people who proven they understand the concept of maintaining packages
19:16<theholyduck>do it
19:16<@peter1138>or something
19:16<theholyduck>also, dont provide step by step instalation instructions
19:17<theholyduck>that way you can loose all those tiresom former ubuntu users talking about how much amazing they learned from gentoo
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19:17-!-glx_ is now known as glx
19:17<theholyduck>now that is a distro i'd approve of
19:17<@Rubidium>ah LFS :)
19:17<@Rubidium>got bored around libc
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19:18<theholyduck>Rubidium, well, the most tiring gentoo user are the ones talking about how amazing gentoo is that lets you install by hand, etc,etc
19:18<theholyduck>and all the other things every distro lets you
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19:19<theholyduck>actually, i should write a debian sid installer system and guide for the "l33t h4cker" who wants a completely optimized, built from scratch system they configured by hand themself, more gentoo buzzwords here.
19:19<theholyduck>just to prove a point
19:19<Wizzleby>I did LFS before, it was.. tedious, but a fun experience
19:20<theholyduck>the one thing i actually genuinly should do
19:20<Wizzleby>theholyduck: the funny thing about points, is that even if you prove them, it is no guaruntee others 'get' the point ;)
19:20<theholyduck>is finish up my debian/ubuntu package manager addon
19:21<@Rubidium>theholyduck: does that support adding patches to the kernel package? As doing that is kinda non-trivial
19:21<theholyduck>a couple of years back i wrote a basic compile from source packagemanager in bash to integrate with apt
19:21<theholyduck>mostly for making automated mplayer/ffmpeg builds
19:21<theholyduck>once a week
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19:22<theholyduck>i should finish that up, and release it as apt-duck or something
19:22<theholyduck>becuase unlike almost every other script i write, it was actually useful and usable
19:22<@Rubidium>peter1138: sounds like a song to run on the airport at the moment an American delegation and the pope arrive
19:24<theholyduck>essentially, it was portage but instead of the tedious useflags, it used a ncurses based system walking you through major and minor configure options
19:25<fjb>Sounds a bit like FreeBSD's ports system.
19:26<theholyduck>fjb, well techincally i essentially ripped it off lunar linux
19:26<OwenS>Isn't there a prebuilt dpkg tool for building sdebs into debs?
19:26<theholyduck>OwenS, well the point wasnt using sdebs :P
19:26<@Rubidium>yeah, but that doesn't configure your packages
19:26<theholyduck>but svn's, gits, up to date snapshots
19:27<theholyduck>or experimental features
19:27<theholyduck>for mplayer i offered mplayer svn, mplayer uau, git
19:27<theholyduck>both with and without ffmpeg-mt
19:27<theholyduck>*mplayer from uau's git
19:27<theholyduck>ffmpeg had latest stable or latest svn
19:28<theholyduck>essentially, letting you pick the exact version and type of package you wanted for what
19:29<theholyduck>simelarly the system could have been extended to say, specifying svn revisions of a package you want
19:29<theholyduck>if you wanted a specific revision
19:30<theholyduck>the real beauty of it though, is that it was still a debian sid system for all the underlying packages, and the compile time stuff was essentially for special software with special needs
19:31<OwenS>I wonder... are Debian/Ubuntu shipping mplayer with vdpau support these days?
19:33<theholyduck>they are
19:33<OwenS>Haha... A bug in the Kubuntu distribution upgrade app: It appends text where the cursor is
19:34<theholyduck>due to a mplayer hackaround
19:34<@Rubidium>OwenS: I remember seeing that while starting some video
19:34<theholyduck>ubuntu refuses to upgrade mplayer
19:34<theholyduck>because mplayer doesnt do releases
19:34<theholyduck>only svn
19:34<theholyduck>the mplayer devs convinced some debian devs
19:34<theholyduck>of taking a svn snapshot
19:34<theholyduck>and calling it mplayer 1.0 rc3
19:34<theholyduck>its not ACTUALLY a release,
19:34<@Rubidium>not doing releases is (IMO) stupid
19:35<@Rubidium>I was wondering what vpdau actually was
19:35<theholyduck>next ubuntu release rolls around
19:35<theholyduck>and ubuntu imports the debian svn snapshot
19:35<theholyduck>and gets vdpau, etc,etc
19:35<OwenS>Rubidium: Video Display and Presentation API for Unix :)
19:35<theholyduck>then intrestingly,
19:35<theholyduck>labels their svn releases
19:35<theholyduck>as rc4
19:35<OwenS>nVIDIA's standard for video decode. Also supported by S3. ATi invented their own XVBA. Intel has VAAPI. Its a mess
19:35<theholyduck>but the only existing mplayer release is still rc2 :P
19:36<theholyduck>OwenS, well vaapi is supposed to be able to do both xvba and vdpau
19:36<theholyduck>as in, be a wrapper
19:36<theholyduck>Rubidium, well.
19:36<theholyduck>mplayer has almost no devs
19:36<OwenS>theholyduck: sure. But note there are no native working VAAPI drivers XD
19:36<theholyduck>and the few devs it does have
19:36<theholyduck>are all busy writing code
19:36<theholyduck>fixing stuff, adding new features
19:37<theholyduck>theres nobody who feels like doing feature freezes
19:37<theholyduck>bugfixes on olde releases, etc
19:37<theholyduck>theres no manpower for it
19:37<theholyduck>essentially, they dont do releases because they're so few people, that produce quite alot of new code
19:37<theholyduck>that theres no manpower to try and make releases
19:38<theholyduck>its a purely practical decission
19:38<theholyduck>mplayer svn is still generally quite stable
19:38<theholyduck>so theres no real reason not to just compile from it
19:40<theholyduck>ffmpeg effectivly does no releases either
19:40<theholyduck>they've done one in the last. what..
19:40<theholyduck>6 years?
19:40<theholyduck>well a bit less maybe
19:40<__ln___>someone's having a monologue here it seems....
19:40<theholyduck>__ln___, :P
19:41<@Rubidium>so if you can't be bothered to make a release branch, just tag some relatively stable svn version on a bi-monthly basis
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19:42<@Rubidium>as the current method of "releasing" means that people who do not intimately know how stable it roughly is will randomly pick something and give that to users
19:42<@Rubidium>or just stay with the last released (ancient) versions
19:42<OwenS>At the very least tag a couple of weeks before a Ubuntu release goes final :p
19:42<theholyduck>Rubidium, well the problem with that approach,
19:42<OwenS>That provides a) A regular schedule b) Gets the package out
19:43<theholyduck>Rubidium, is that generally, the moment anyone comes having problems
19:43<theholyduck>its either fixed in the latest svn
19:43<theholyduck>or atleast, needs to be tested in it
19:43<theholyduck>and ubuntu users use the same packages for half a year ++
19:43<@Rubidium>OwenS: better a couple of weeks after the Ubuntu release so it actually has the time to propagate from Debian to Ubuntu and such
19:44<OwenS>6 months?! :p
19:44<theholyduck>OwenS, 6 months is alot in multimedia :p
19:44<theholyduck>especially with some of the newer stuff going on
19:44<theholyduck>6 months is an eternity
19:44<@Rubidium>they close the import quite early
19:44<OwenS>I was kinda hoping that by making "proper" releases Ubuntu would actually pick them up :p
19:44<OwenS>Rather than indirecting through Debian
19:44<theholyduck>OwenS, they might not
19:44<theholyduck>it took them a year to go from 1.0rc1 to 1.0rc2
19:44<theholyduck>after rc2 was released
19:45<theholyduck>ubuntu = SLOW on the uptake
19:45<@Rubidium> <- about 3 months before 10.04 they stopped importing from Debian
19:45<@Rubidium>well, maybe 2.5, but they used Debian testing
19:45<@Rubidium>which means another 10 days to migrate from unstable to testing
19:45<OwenS>Rubidium: Its an LTS release
19:46<theholyduck>well, as an example
19:46<@Rubidium>with a MASSIVE snafu just days before the release
19:46<theholyduck>in the last 6 months,
19:46<theholyduck>open source multimedia software .
19:46<theholyduck>has gotten weighted p frame support via x264
19:46<theholyduck>giving large bonuses in video compression
19:47<theholyduck>support for end to end latency encoding of a couple of millisecond for streaming applications
19:47<@Rubidium>OwenS: Karmic stopped importing 4 months (25-06) before the release (29-10)
19:47<theholyduck>bluray authoring support
19:47<theholyduck>the ability to adapt streaming quality on the fly.
19:47<theholyduck>true vfr encoding
19:47<theholyduck>and so on
19:47<theholyduck>OwenS, 6 months means a whole gigant load of improvements
19:48<theholyduck>updating your multimedia software once a month is allready too little
19:48<OwenS>theholyduck: Sure. But it would be better than we have now
19:48<theholyduck>OwenS, well what we have now is ubuntu running so uselessly outdated
19:48<OwenS>And the mplayer install on my HTPC is 6 months old...
19:48<theholyduck>we just link them to a svn compilation guide and say
19:48<theholyduck>"it works on the svn"
19:48<OwenS>No... 10 months
19:48<theholyduck>if the version is only a couple of months
19:49<theholyduck>instead of a couple of years old
19:49<theholyduck>they might not be incentivized to use a good version
19:49<@Rubidium>theholyduck: so basically you're giving people a very good incentive to not use mplayer
19:49<theholyduck>Rubidium, essentially sure.
19:50<theholyduck>but all the other players are slower, support less stuff, have worse demuxers, have no video filters and dubious subtitle renderers
19:50<theholyduck>its mplayer or bust essentially
19:50<OwenS>"dubious subtitle renderers"? Thats a complement to mplayer?
19:50<OwenS>Which doesn't even know how to position SSA subtitles?!
19:50<theholyduck>OwenS, it does now
19:50<theholyduck>libass was patched in the last 6 months
19:50<theholyduck>making it on par with visfilter
19:50<theholyduck>as in, reproduces everything as vsfilter does
19:51<theholyduck>all the bugs of vsfilter people abuse aswell
19:51<OwenS>Great. Now I just need to figure out what magic options I need to provide to build mplayer on Solaris...
19:51<theholyduck>and its alot faster than vsfilter aswell
19:51<theholyduck>infact, mplayer now has the best ass renderer around
19:51<theholyduck>since its just as good as the standard, and way faster
19:52<OwenS>Also: Why is the vobsub renderer making my subtitles transparent? -_-
19:52<theholyduck>OwenS, i think it involves atleast 3 sheep.
19:52<theholyduck>OwenS, mplayer default, i'm not quite sure myself
19:52<theholyduck>you can change it if you want to
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19:52<theholyduck>its marginally less ugly than gigant yellow vobsubs though
19:53<OwenS>If the vobsubs are yellow... I have some which are green or other colours, and therefore disappear
19:53<theholyduck>theres probably an option to make it obey the orignal flags
19:53<theholyduck>honestly, the mplayer manual is like 8k lines
19:53<theholyduck>i'm not familiar with the vobsub section
19:54<OwenS>I'm not familiar with any of it really. Except for the bits I had to fiddle with to enable vdpau :p
19:54*OwenS hugs 8400GS (And nVIDIA's awesome Solaris drivers)
19:54<theholyduck>the biggest advantage of vdpau over xv
19:54<theholyduck>isnt actually speed of decoding/display
19:55<theholyduck>but the ability to do stuff to the video after hardware scaling
19:55<OwenS>In my case, its actually the ability to decode the video in the first place
19:55<OwenS>My HTPC runs on an Atom ;-)
19:55<theholyduck>with xv you have to render the subtitles before hardware scaling takes effect
19:55<theholyduck>so if your video is dvd res
19:56<theholyduck>and you got a gigant 1080p or beyond monitor
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19:56<theholyduck>even if the subtitles are softsubs, with xv, they'll be blured due to scaling
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19:56<theholyduck>with vdpau, you can scale the video, bring it back, overlay the subtitles
19:56<theholyduck>and send to monitor
19:56<theholyduck>so even if the video is blury
19:56<theholyduck>atleast your subtitles are crystal clear
19:56<OwenS>In my case, some stuff gets scaled up, some down, since my TV is 1360x768
19:57<theholyduck>OwenS, either way, vdpau lets you render subtitles at native res
19:57<theholyduck>xv doesnt
19:59<theholyduck>i'm going to miss xv when its gone
19:59<OwenS>The only issue I have with my Atom HTPC is when idiots encode 720p MPEG-4 ASP...
19:59<theholyduck>its one of the few places of almost 100% compitability with everything
19:59<theholyduck>on unix
19:59<theholyduck>especially in relation to xorg
19:59<theholyduck>almost every graphic card produced since the middle of the 90's ish
20:00<theholyduck>has xv support
20:00<OwenS>Yell at ATi and Intel to support VDPAU. It works on every Unix, it is designed to support any card...
20:00<theholyduck>not really
20:00<theholyduck>vdpau interfaces directly with nvidias video decoding chip
20:01<theholyduck>on the gpu.
20:01<theholyduck>and scaling chip
20:01<OwenS>The design is portable though
20:01<@peter1138>i want it on AIX
20:01<OwenS>Works on Linux, BSD and Solaris, and both nVIDIA and S3 have implemented it
20:01<theholyduck>even if nvidia did opensource the firmware and what not needed to make it work
20:01<@peter1138>and OSF/1
20:01<theholyduck>theres no guarantee you could actually implement it on ati cards or intel ones
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20:02<theholyduck>OwenS, well sure, if nvidia liscenced out the chips/firmware/code used to interface,etc
20:02<theholyduck>the specs, etc
20:02<OwenS>theholyduck: No need for a license! S3 implemented the API of their own accord!
20:02<OwenS>VDPAU operates at a similar level of abstraction to OpenGL
20:02<theholyduck>OwenS, hmm, doesnt necesarily mean its doable to make it work with ati's decoding chips
20:03<OwenS>Well, there are so far two compatible implementations, and Intel are strongly considering it
20:03<theholyduck>OwenS, the other problem is
20:03<theholyduck>ati is SLOOOW
20:03<theholyduck>they still dont support the latest xorg
20:03<theholyduck>unless theres been a new release while i wasnt looking
20:04<OwenS>Intel's only VAAPI GPU doesn't support any kernels released in the last 12 months :p
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20:06<Keyboard_Warrior>theholyduck, her
20:06<Keyboard_Warrior>internet seemingly exploded
20:06-!-theholyduck is now known as Guest1928
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20:06<theholyduck>there we go
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20:19<Eddi|zuHause>"opensource is failure April 30th, 2010 at 23:21
20:19<Eddi|zuHause>yeah! it will not last long till you communist scumbags will be exterminated! go steve!" <-- i cannot stop laughing :p
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20:38<GEORGE_W_BUSH>so does anyone here play openttd
20:38<PeterT>what is "openttd"?
20:39<GEORGE_W_BUSH> its kinda like this
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20:43<PeterT>oh, never heard of it!
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21:16<Eddi|zuHause># you've never really known
21:16<Eddi|zuHause># that when the white flag is flown
21:16<Eddi|zuHause># no one, no one, no one has
21:16<Eddi|zuHause># won the war
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---Logclosed Sat May 01 00:00:09 2010