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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-05-01

---Logopened Sat May 01 00:00:09 2010
---Daychanged Sat May 01 2010
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02:29<andythenorth>Rubidium: could newgrf debug show the current production multiplier for each output cargo?
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03:20<andythenorth>Rubidium: industry production multiplier is at offset 13
03:22*andythenorth ponders
03:23<andythenorth>industry location restrictions are easy to dream up
03:23<andythenorth>but mostly boring in gameplay yes/no?
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03:38<planetmaker>very much so
03:39<planetmaker>I'd say rather annoying than boring, though
03:41<andythenorth>I think I mostly won't bother then. Some industries are already near town. I won't add many more restrictions.
03:42<andythenorth>remind me I said that if I change my mind :P
03:48*andythenorth ponders
03:49<andythenorth>cb 28 - industry location permissibility. I'm missing a way to detect if the construction attempt is the game or the player
03:50<andythenorth>if variable A7 was available during industry construction....that would do it
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04:11<planetmaker>meh... the road vehicle ID recommendations are also only kicking the toyland stuff... :-(
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04:16<planetmaker>hm... very crazy idea:
04:16<planetmaker>let farms produce food with different sub cargos
04:17<planetmaker>Food processing plants accept that - and produce food with other sub cargos
04:17<planetmaker>Would that make sense?
04:17<andythenorth>explain more?
04:17<planetmaker>Like a food factory gets potatoes and meat and cheese - and makes chips
04:18<planetmaker>but at the same time the food could - instead of being delivered to the factory - directly be delivered to a twon
04:18<planetmaker>That would make the game easier in the respect that the amount of cargos gets reduced
04:19<planetmaker>But it would keep everything else
04:19<andythenorth>so food -> town and food -> processing plant -> food -> town ??
04:19<planetmaker>yes, like that
04:19<planetmaker>or would that be too boring?
04:19<andythenorth>why keep the processing plant(s)?
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04:19<planetmaker>in order to get different sub cargos
04:20<planetmaker>a farm will give you fruit, meat, grain
04:20<planetmaker>a processing plant will give you chips, caned vegies,...
04:20<andythenorth>but these are just subtypes of food?
04:21<planetmaker>and why do that? You can make two times money from the same cargo ;-)
04:21<andythenorth>well it could work
04:21<andythenorth>but it seems strange
04:21<planetmaker>I agree, it's uncommon
04:21<planetmaker>But basically passenger work that way
04:21<andythenorth>food is an unsolved problem in my view
04:21<planetmaker>towns are that kind of "industry"
04:22<andythenorth>FWIW there is a 'market' planned for towns which will accept farm cargos and produce food, but that's quite different to your suggestion
04:23<planetmaker>a "market" which produces?
04:23<andythenorth>wholesale market
04:23<andythenorth>not retail :)
04:23<planetmaker>well, yes, but... they don't produce ;-) They just retail b2b :-P
04:24<andythenorth>some will slaughter animals, wash vegies etc
04:24<andythenorth>and's a game :)
04:24<dih>happy 1. may all ye germans ^^
04:24<dih>(actually wanted to go shopping today) grr
04:24<planetmaker>moin dih
04:24<planetmaker>andythenorth: sure, it's a game, I know very well :-)
04:25<@Rubidium>dih: here the shops are still open
04:25<planetmaker>actually your commit message gave me the idea to this food only chains
04:25<planetmaker>andythenorth: or what does r903 do?
04:26<planetmaker>sorry. r913
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04:31<Terkhen>good morning
04:34<andythenorth>planetmaker: r913 was a ticket to have the arable farm produce cargo 'sugar beet' (temperate/arctic) or 'sugar cane' (tropic)
04:35<@Rubidium>peter1138: why oh why do they build soccer stadiums in/near towns?
04:35<andythenorth>it's where the people live?
04:36<@Rubidium>andythenorth: yes, and that is the primary reason why you should keep stadiums far away from towns
04:37<@peter1138>yeah, but these guys are just coming to the town centre to 'protest', not to any stadium
04:39<andythenorth>electricity electricity electricity
04:39<@Rubidium>oh, that's even worse...
04:39*andythenorth thinks some industries will increase production if there is a power plant nearby
04:40<andythenorth>how near is 'nearby'?
04:40<@Rubidium>1FE tiles?
04:40<__ln___>the distance from the couch to the fridge
04:42<andythenorth>1FE seems excessive?
04:43<andythenorth>Rubidium: did you see my debug feature request earlier?
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04:48<planetmaker>andythenorth: "nearby" = f(map size)
04:48<theholyduck>i should do a feature request for tram MULTI TRACK DRIFTIIING
04:49<theholyduck>seems like quite alot of effort though ;(
04:49<andythenorth>planetmaker: possibly. Or just 64dec
04:49<planetmaker>andythenorth: it's not possible to get info about the "electicity production" of "nearby" power plants, right?
04:49<planetmaker>or overall
04:49<planetmaker>ok, then 64 is fine
04:50<planetmaker>for steel and such?
04:50<andythenorth>it could be if var 68 was extended
04:50<andythenorth>I have been pondering for ages whether to try and extend var 68 myself
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04:53<andythenorth>there is a gameplay reason to not care about the actual production at the powerplant
04:54<andythenorth>lets say I have a fertiliser plant. if I am delivering coal to power plant A (40 tiles distant) then I get a production boost.
04:54<andythenorth>Now the game builds a power plant at location B (30 tiles distant). But I don't notice. No production boost at my fertiliser plant :|
04:56<andythenorth>and the coal is wasted
04:59<andythenorth>wouldn't it be useful if an industry could 'close and build a different industry at this location'
05:01<planetmaker>like close with successor industry :-)
05:01<planetmaker>that'd also take care of expanding an industry :-)
05:03<andythenorth>rebuild with bigger layout
05:03<andythenorth>in actual games, it might be completely blocked by stations etc
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05:09*andythenorth ponders closures again
05:10<planetmaker>generally they suck
05:10<planetmaker>for serviced industries
05:10<planetmaker>they destroy your network
05:12<andythenorth>I am going to prevent closure for serviced industry.
05:12<andythenorth>I think there will be a parameter: no closures / closure if unserviced for n years
05:13<andythenorth>(for secondary industry)
05:13<planetmaker>well. Unserviced industries may do what they want
05:13<planetmaker>ok... maybe not for scenario things :-) So the parameter "no closures, no openings" might be nice
05:13<andythenorth>not if I want to prevent the 'great industry death' problem five years after game start
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05:14<andythenorth>(that was in response to 'unserviced industries...'
05:14<planetmaker>yeah :-)
05:14<andythenorth>no openings is interesting. That would be 'total sandbox' mode
05:22<planetmaker>yes, for scenarios and contests :-)
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05:24<andythenorth>planetmaker: primary industry....
05:24<andythenorth>no closures / no closures, no openings / other stuff
05:25<andythenorth>other stuff relates to closure and production change. I haven't figured it out yet :P
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05:28<andythenorth>Terkhen: you've played with FIRS where primary production doesn't change except when ENSP / FMSP are supplied?
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05:29<nighthawk_c_m>Morning everyone
05:30<Terkhen>delivering supplies to primary industries is always the first thing I do
05:30<andythenorth>have you noticed that there are *no* random production changes (up or down) :)
05:30<andythenorth>I thought it would be weird, but I actually like it
05:30<Terkhen>I have noticed that production never goes down
05:31<andythenorth>do you think it should?
05:31<nighthawk_c_m>I hate it when production suddenly drops jamming trains at the stations
05:32<andythenorth>Terkhen: my original intention was that production might randomly drop if no ENSP or FMSP are delivered
05:32<Terkhen>yes, but in smaller steps and possibly with a limit
05:33<andythenorth>so not the default behaviour of halving production :)
05:33<Terkhen>if the industry is not serviced correctly then the production should probably drop too.. but also in smaller steps than original industries
05:34<andythenorth>In my recent game I've found that's covered by the algorithm that distributes cargo to stations
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05:36<nighthawk_c_m>If you could do that in smaller steps it would be great I think. Main annoyance is the mentioned 50% drop - and depending on thje industries previous outputs you suddenly have a bunch of trains digging in their noses waiting.
05:38<nighthawk_c_m>Anyone know how I set up a game so I see the temperate climate and can make use of the varying snowline feature the canadian stations set offers?
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05:58<planetmaker>andythenorth: for contests or so a setting like "no closures / openings / prod. changes makes sense, for primaries
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07:02<nighthawk_c_m>andythenorth: How can I add translations, or contribute? There are a few terms missing in German
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07:07<PeterT>is it a bug that openttd says "Game still paused (number of players)" twice? [07:06:31] <SN1> *** Game still paused (number of players)
07:07<PeterT>[07:06:33] <SN1> *** Game still paused (number of players)
07:08<@Rubidium>nighthawk_c_m: sounds like you've loaded some untranslated NewGRFs
07:09<nighthawk_c_m>As Industry GRF only FIRS
07:10<nighthawk_c_m>50% of the lumber miss is in german - the rest of the text lines seems to be untranslated
07:11<nighthawk_c_m>its not looking like a mess, more like the lines are just not translated yet
07:11<@Rubidium>so the NewGRF is untranslated
07:11<@Rubidium>talk to andythenorth about fixing that :)
07:11<nighthawk_c_m>Thats why I asked him on how to contribute to the translation
07:11<nighthawk_c_m>but hes away atm
07:12<@Rubidium>woopsie, missed his name there
07:12<frosch123>you could also just kick planetmaker :p
07:14<nighthawk_c_m>0.o what would that be good for?
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07:18<frosch123>i would guess he did the current translation
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07:20<planetmaker>ah, FIRS translation? Yeah... not updated in eons.
07:20<planetmaker>too much in a flux
07:26<planetmaker>but I guess it could get one again.
07:28<planetmaker>nighthawk_c_m: look at
07:28<planetmaker>The German language file has to look the same - but the actual text being replaced by the German text of course
07:30<nighthawk_c_m>well, I think there are at the moment a few basic elemts which I believe will stay for a while - I'll have a look - so basically I just edit all the stuff and Send him the File?
07:30<planetmaker>but I'm currently not even 100% sure whether it's used
07:30<planetmaker>nighthawk_c_m: basically yes.
07:30<planetmaker>The better way would be to make a ticket at the bug tracker
07:30<planetmaker>That's what it's for ;-)
07:31<nighthawk_c_m>Well, there has to be some German stuff - basically the game Stuff thats from the original industries stays german, all new things seem to be in engliush
07:31<nighthawk_c_m>Uh .. er I never wrked with such a system before ...
07:31<planetmaker>yes; that might exactly be a result of "no translations". What is translated is OpenTTD strings, I guess
07:31<planetmaker>BUT: if there's a proper translation it's easy to add.
07:31<Terkhen>nighthawk_c_m: strings for existing industries and cargos are taken from OpenTTD
07:32<Terkhen>at least in FIRS
07:32<planetmaker>yeah, that's what we talk about
07:32<planetmaker>nighthawk_c_m: <-- that's the old German translation file
07:32<planetmaker>You might use it for reference or so
07:33<planetmaker>but use the layout of the English one
07:33<Terkhen>I did not know that the translation support was already there :)
07:33<planetmaker>and 7F ->02 and FF -> 82
07:33<planetmaker>Terkhen: well, in principle for ages ;-)
07:33<planetmaker>But... maybe it broke meanwhile
07:34<nighthawk_c_m>Ok, So I'll grab that NFO stuff and just translate it as far as I get - I'll abuse the english one and just rename it :-P
07:34<planetmaker>it was one of the first things FooBar and myself designed for the newgrfs.
07:34<planetmaker>nighthawk_c_m: the name has to be exactly as the german one I linked ;-)
07:34<nighthawk_c_m>That way I don't loose any formatting as I have no freaking idea of the NFO coding around the words :-P
07:35<nighthawk_c_m>Well I can always rename it like that.
07:35<nighthawk_c_m>Is tehre a way for me to upload it to the dev stuff after working for review or so?
07:35<planetmaker>sure. But you need to register at the devzone.
07:36<planetmaker> <-- just create a new issue there
07:36<planetmaker>and I just checked: it's like assumed: currently there's no active translation
07:37<planetmaker>but it's just adding a line which includes it
07:37<planetmaker>so, Terkhen you could also do that ;-)
07:38<Terkhen>I'm already checking the languages... there is a waste cargo?
07:41<nighthawk_c_m>Not implemented so far afaik
07:42<nighthawk_c_m>Ok, so I registered at the dev Zone, how can I add myself as a contributor and tell that I take over the german translation?
07:45<planetmaker>Terkhen: yes, there is afaik
07:46<frosch123>nighthawk_c_m: first get started with translating :)
07:46<planetmaker>small one-tile things in towns which produce it
07:46<planetmaker>and waste disposal sites afaik
07:46<Terkhen>I have never seen cotton either
07:46<planetmaker>hm... I should play again a FIRS game :-)
07:46<planetmaker>Terkhen: tropic only
07:46<Terkhen>I always play tropic :P
07:47<planetmaker>then it's maybe not yet implemented. Dunno
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07:47<planetmaker>cotton farm missing or so
07:47<nighthawk_c_m>Tropic has a problem afaik - I didn't see the water anywhere - like the water you need to get to the towns
07:47<planetmaker>make another bug report about that :-)
07:48<Terkhen>water plants
07:48<Terkhen>they are present, at least at the nightlies
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08:06<nighthawk_c_m>I see that Andy has created a few industrial terms that are completely unknow to any dictionary :-P
08:06<nighthawk_c_m>Lumber TReatment plant as an example :-P
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08:12<Terkhen>planetmaker: <-- special caracters such as tildes (í, é) require special treatment?
08:13<__ln___>those aren't tildes
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08:13<nighthawk_c_m>those are axon's - french special characters
08:13<planetmaker>Terkhen: are the strings marked as UTF-8 by starting with the thorn?
08:14<Terkhen>in spanish they are called tildes :P
08:14<frosch123>"Þ" <- thorn :)
08:14<planetmaker>Terkhen: or use the escape for the thorn for better readability
08:14<planetmaker>thanks, frosch123 :-)
08:15<__ln___>Terkhen: acentos.... ñ tiene una tilde
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08:16<Terkhen>__ln___: in spanish, "acento" and "tilde" are not synonims
08:16<Terkhen>planetmaker: I'm not sure of what you mean
08:16<__ln___>lo sé
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08:17<__ln___>Terkhen: is tilde the common name for acentos and the ~ symbol?
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08:19<frosch123>Terkhen: "Þ" is the nfo control character for "this string uses utf8". just start every string with it
08:19<Terkhen>okay :)
08:19<Terkhen>__ln___: yes
08:20<__ln___>qué raro
08:20<frosch123>don't ask me, why such a weird letter is used for Þat Þough.
08:20<planetmaker>Terkhen: or add C3 9E in front of it
08:20<planetmaker>without quotation marks before the first quotation mark for the string
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08:26<frosch123> <- access to randombits during house/industry construction
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09:01<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r19743 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Fix: NewGrfs could access map bits of not yet constructed industries and houses during construction callbacks.
09:10<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r19744 /trunk/src/ (9 files): -Add [FS#3477]: [NewGRF] Access to random bits of houses and industries from construction callbacks 17, 28 and 2F. That is: The randombits the house/industry will start with, if construction succeeds.
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10:21<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r19745 /trunk/src/viewport.cpp: -Fix: The GUI is controlled by _local_company, not _current_company.
10:33<__ln___>is this grammatical: "El registro es gratuito y con él puede obtener información ..."?
10:34<__ln___>i thought él is a personal pronoun
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10:52<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
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11:25<Yexo>from "3 (veh ID map) yes* no * can't skip a livery override without skipping the main engine action 3 as well" <- is that comment correct or is it the other way around?
11:25<Yexo>not being able to skip the main engine action3 without also skipping all livery overrides makes more sense
11:27<nighthawk_c_m>anyone have a clue where I can find the arctic climate grf nowadays?
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11:30<Alberth>what "the arctic climate grf" ?
11:30<Yexo>if you mean "alphine climate grf" just google for it
11:30<Alberth>OpenGFX, GRFCrawler, Google, BaNaNaS are usual places
11:32<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r19746 /trunk/src/ (window.cpp window_gui.h): -Fix [FS#3675]: Do not recenter usually centered windows when resizing main window or changing language, if they have been moved/resized before.
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11:57<blathijs>planetmaker: It seems the 0.2.4 opengfx tarball contains a bunch of ._filename files (where filename is another file from the tarball)
11:57<blathijs>planetmaker: Those files contain binary junk with MACOSX in them, it seems
11:58<blathijs>planetmaker: Seems like they're not in SVN, so the creation of the tarball was probably done on a mac?
11:59<blathijs>planetmaker: s/SVN/hg/
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12:00<Sacro>Yep, that's a mac one
12:00<blathijs>There's 62 of those files in the tarball...
12:01<Sacro>sounds plausible
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12:04<Ammler>blathijs: does that break building on debian?
12:04<blathijs>That's 248KB of wasted space!
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12:04<blathijs>Ammler: Probably not, haven't tried yet
12:05<blathijs>It's just not very pretty, nor useful, so perhaps it should be avoided on future releases
12:05<Ammler>blathijs: the update is quite important
12:05<Ammler>trains are very ugly on 0.2.3
12:06<blathijs>Ammler: Yeah, I'm working on the update, it's just that I've only just arrived a the "building" part :-p
12:06<blathijs>I noticed the files on the "importing" part :-p
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12:10<blathijs>Ammler: Build worked just fine
12:12<blathijs>Hmm, lintian also warns about the .hgtags file that's in the source tarball, but I think I've said that before?
12:22<Ammler>mäh, that still is in?
12:23<Ammler>I thought, he "fixed" that...
12:26<Ammler>if he doesn't arise, we should make a ticket again...
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12:28<Ammler>blathijs: could you add your excess there :-)
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12:53<andythenorth>hi hi
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13:04<fjb>Moin andythenorth
13:18*andythenorth decides what to do about primary industry random production changes, closure etc
13:18*andythenorth scratches head quite a bit
13:18<nighthawk_c_m>Hi andythenorth
13:19<andythenorth>I know some stuff: ENSP/FMSP to increase production. I know how to decrease production.
13:19<andythenorth>Not sure what to do about the game's default random changes
13:19<andythenorth>Also whether to allow primary industry closure?
13:20<nighthawk_c_m>Well, I would make a parameter to decide whether the standard closure system is applied or no closures at all happen
13:20<andythenorth>that's kind of my thinking
13:21<andythenorth>but the standard closure system is actually a bit complicated
13:21<nighthawk_c_m>"nd would be awesome for some testing as the "all industry close after 5 years of gametime " can be rather annoying
13:21<andythenorth>I know
13:21<andythenorth>I want to prevent that
13:21<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> industry location restrictions are easy to dream up but mostly boring in gameplay yes/no? <- i think they could be good for random creation, but bad for manual placement (scenario editor, funding)
13:21<andythenorth>frosch123 Rubidium some grf local storage would be really really useful
13:22<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that's why I was looking to see if the location permissibility cb can test whether it is game or player trying to build the industry
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13:23<Eddi|zuHause>if it's not possible currently, it should be easy to add
13:23<Yexo>I'm quite sure it is possible, but I don't know how exactly
13:24<andythenorth>industry var A7 looks relevant, but might not exist when testing construction?
13:25<andythenorth>I would like to control how the game distributes industries, whilst letting players put them wherever they like
13:25<Yexo>only industry var available when the industry doesn't exist yet is 0x43
13:25<frosch123>the variables accessable during cb 28 are mentioned at the cb 28 description
13:25<frosch123>and you can tell the origin iirc
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>might be subject to the same change that George requested for the random bits
13:26<andythenorth>I'm surprised there isn't a var that already has that info
13:27<+glx>you can at least check the game mode
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13:27<Eddi|zuHause>glx: but the game mode is actually not relevant
13:27<+glx>for scenario it is ;)
13:27<andythenorth>it seems like the kind of thing that is sometimes stuck in var 10 for example
13:27<frosch123>hmm, maybe i confused it with cb 22
13:28<andythenorth>I could hack on cb 22
13:28<andythenorth>I could use cb22, check var 18, store the result, then branch cb 28 depending on the stored value
13:29<andythenorth>do cbs always run in a reliable order?
13:29<frosch123>that won't work
13:29<andythenorth>can't store in an industry not built yet?
13:30<Yexo>it should be easy to make var A7 available in cb 28
13:30<andythenorth>it would be useful :)
13:32<frosch123>if cb 28 wouldn't be that headaching itself :)
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13:34<andythenorth>I am working on FIRS 0.2 at the moment, mostly it's code stuff like this.
13:34<andythenorth>not many shiny features or graphics :o
13:35<Yexo> <- this should work
13:36<+glx>Yexo: you need to update IndustryGetVariable() too I think
13:37<Yexo>glx: not needed, there is an industry in IndustryGetVariable, so it works already
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13:37<Yexo>(all variables are available in cb28, just most don't have a meaningful value)
13:39<+glx>ah right
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13:40<andythenorth>line ending traumas again
13:41<frosch123>Yexo: you should better add it to IndustryLocationGetVariable
13:42*andythenorth has forgotten how to get a diff from a browser into a usable format
13:42<Yexo>frosch123: ah, I overlooked that function
13:42<andythenorth>does hg require anything different to svn when it comes to patches?
13:42<frosch123> if (industry == NULL) { <- i am quite sure that test is supposed to deny access to any of the variables, except it does not work as it would have to check ind->index != INVALID_INDUSTRY
13:43<frosch123>andythenorth: usually svn patches are -p 0, while hg patches are -p 1
13:45<Yexo>frosch123: industry can be NULL in case of some callbacks called from the gui
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19747 /trunk/src/lang/ (galician.txt turkish.txt ukrainian.txt unfinished/irish.txt):
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: galician - 22 changes by Condex
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: irish - 244 changes by tem
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: turkish - 25 changes by niw3
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: ukrainian - 2 changes by Madvin
13:46<frosch123>Yexo: that is interesting as i added some assert(ind != NULL) some hours ago :p
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13:47<Yexo>frosch123: industry_gui.cpp:68
13:47<frosch123>i see, cb 22 and the fund text
13:48<Terkhen> <--- \7C does not like UTF (cargo amounts are wrong)
13:48<Yexo>Terkhen: what is the string you use?
13:49<Terkhen>C3 9E "\7C cajas de suministros de ingeniería" 00
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13:52<dih>Yexo \o/
13:53<Yexo>Terkhen: that's a bug in openttd's code
13:53<frosch123>thanks yexo :)
13:53<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r19748 /trunk/src/newgrf_industries.cpp: -Fix (r19743): Callback 22 and 38 are called with ind == NULL.
13:55<frosch123>yexo, Terkhen: Finally, characters 7B..7F no longer function as the above formatting instructions, but will display regular glyphs instead (provided they are installed; by default TTD has none at these codepoints). Instead, to use these formatting instructions in UTF-8 mode, you need to use their Private Use Area codepoint at U+E0xx.
13:55<frosch123>(quoted from the wiki)
13:55*andythenorth defeated by patching :|
13:55<frosch123>7C turns into E07C
13:56<frosch123>err. EE 81 BC
13:56<Yexo>\UE07C <- that's easier
13:56<frosch123>likely :)
13:57<Yexo>it's still a bug in openttd as the control codes 0E / 0F should keep working
13:57<Yexo>hmm, they do
13:57<dih>*cough* Yexo *cough* squirrel *cough*
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13:58<Yexo>dih: you can guess the status of that :p
13:59<dih>i am just giving you a little ... encouragement :-D
13:59<frosch123>maybe it would be useful if andythenorth would also use the utf8 form in the english texts to simplify translations
13:59*andythenorth is happy to do that
14:00<andythenorth>or someone else can contribute patches to the language file
14:00<Terkhen>Yexo, frosch123: thanks, it works now
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14:01<Terkhen>andythenorth: I can do it
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14:02<andythenorth>Terkhen: you know where the lang file is?
14:02<Terkhen> <-- I can change these while I am on it too
14:03<dih>TrueBrain: if your wt website is down anyway - do you still need the domain?
14:03<Terkhen>andythenorth: yes, I have a working spanish translation now
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14:03<Terkhen>except for that UTF detail
14:03<TrueBrain>need is a big word, but it was always ment as temporary .. so if you have a better goal for it, go for it :)
14:04<andythenorth>Terkhen: feel free to fix 915
14:09<nighthawk_c_m>andythenorth: I have done parts of the german translation for FIRS - how can I hand you the nfo?
14:09<andythenorth>planetmaker: what's the best way to accept language translations for FIRS?
14:10<nighthawk_c_m>probably needs UTF formatting too for some special german characters, if anyone tells me how to I'll be happy to fix it in the pnfo
14:11<Terkhen>nighthawk_c_m: I'm currently coding a patch to add UTF support to the 7F_any.pnfo
14:12<nighthawk_c_m>So there is no need for editing in the sub pnfo's - or rather copy that over to my german pnfo afterwards?
14:12<Terkhen>you'll need to add these changes to your pnfo file
14:12<nighthawk_c_m>Ah ok
14:13<andythenorth>you guys should be aware that FIRS texts currently change quite a lot as a result of playtesting (sorry!)
14:13<Terkhen>no problem, I'm already following nightlies anyways
14:13<nighthawk_c_m>No problem, there are a few word creations that I couldn't find in any dictionary - and a hobby to keep translating - my contribution to your great work :-P
14:14<Terkhen>yeah, some stuff was really hard to translate :P
14:14<nighthawk_c_m>Some word creations don't seem to exist - at least not in my websters dictionary :-)
14:14<andythenorth>maybe I should make them more standard
14:14<andythenorth>any examples?
14:15<nighthawk_c_m>Dredging Site
14:15<andythenorth>ah :)
14:15<nighthawk_c_m>dredging is a verb
14:15<nighthawk_c_m>thus hard to translate into german
14:15<andythenorth>In the USA it might just be called a Dredge Operation
14:15<andythenorth>or Dredge
14:16<nighthawk_c_m>Arable Farm
14:16<nighthawk_c_m>That would rather be a Grain Farm
14:16<Terkhen>in my case it was mostly stuff that I knew in english but couldn't think on a short spanish sentence for them
14:16<nighthawk_c_m>as Arable is just referring to the underground / fields
14:16<andythenorth>Crop Farm might be acceptable
14:16<nighthawk_c_m>Make it Grain - only produces Grain atm - can be changed later on again if needed
14:17<andythenorth>nighthawk_c_m that farm will also produce Sugar Beet / Sugar Cane as soon as I get around to it :)
14:17<nighthawk_c_m>and I haven't done the message texts so far - only the Goods and the industries
14:17<nighthawk_c_m>ah ok
14:17<nighthawk_c_m>then Crop Farm would be better I assume (just suggesting)
14:18<andythenorth>meanwhile....Yexo any chance of zipping that diff? I am having trouble getting it from the browser into an acceptable line-format
14:18<andythenorth>unless the problem is hg
14:18<Yexo>acceptable line format? just run dos2unix / unix2dox on it?
14:19<Yexo>or just "wget" to make sure your browser doesn't change anything to the file
14:20*andythenorth installs wget
14:20<@Rubidium>nighthawk_c_m: wouldn't Arable farm be translated to something like Ackerbau?
14:21<Terkhen>I never had problems using "save as" with firefox (except in windows, where it needs unix2dos)
14:21<Ammler>curl <url> | patch -p0
14:21<Yexo>patch should accept all line-endings anyway, so where is the problem exactly?
14:21<nighthawk_c_m>Could be - I just used "Bauernhof"
14:22<andythenorth>firefox used to work for me. But my svn checkouts of ottd failed. I have no way to fix them. I'm now using the hg checkout, I've never applied a patch with hg
14:22<@Rubidium>nighthawk_c_m: but that includes animal farms
14:22<Yexo>andythenorth: you don't apply a patch with hg, you apply a patch with "patch"
14:22<Yexo>that works eactly the same for a hg or svn checkout
14:22*andythenorth is not very good at this end of stuff :(
14:23<@Rubidium>andythenorth: what Ammler said doesn't work?
14:23<nighthawk_c_m>Rubidium: Worst case is atm the Mixedfarm - I will call taht Bauernhof then and pick up your idea for the Arable Farm
14:24<andythenorth>Rubidium: nope
14:24<@Rubidium>andythenorth: what error does that give? (Guess curl: command not found)
14:25<frosch123>nighthawk_c_m: it could be something like "Landwirtschaftsbetrieb" (arable farm), "Viehwirtschaftsbetrieb" (dairy farm), but yes mixed farm is hard
14:26<@Rubidium>andythenorth: cd .. and try again
14:26<andythenorth>tried that. still fails
14:26<andythenorth>different error
14:27<nighthawk_c_m>MIxed Farm = Bauernhof / dairy Farm = Milchviehhaltung / ARABLEFARM "Ackerbau"
14:27<andythenorth>one more idea
14:27<Yexo>andythenorth: do "hg pull -u" first
14:27<andythenorth>done that
14:27<andythenorth>still fails
14:28<andythenorth>also tried -p1 as suggested by frosch123
14:28*andythenorth wonders why all vcs systems seem to fail on his system
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14:28<@Rubidium>andythenorth: hunk failed means it did find the files to apply it to, just that applying itself failed
14:29<andythenorth>this is an unpatched repo
14:29<andythenorth>I just pulled trunk recently
14:29<@Rubidium>the other one is where it can't find the file to apply it to
14:29<@Rubidium>andythenorth: define recently?
14:29<andythenorth>created the repo on 25th April... used hg pull -u within the last 5 mins
14:31<Yexo>I know there is a gnuwin32 version of "patch" available that crashes if it reads a patch file with non-windows line endings, maybe you have a similar incompatible version of patch for mac?
14:31<@Rubidium>hmm, it fails with my patch too
14:32<@Rubidium>ah, we've got a too new version of trunk
14:33<@Rubidium>in other words, Yexo please svn up and remake the diff :)
14:34<Terkhen>andythenorth: I have posted a fix for 915 at the task
14:35<Terkhen> <--- this converts all strings (except debug ones) to UTF, but it is untested besides opening the grf and checking a few industries
14:35<Terkhen>(to get the real diff click on the first link)
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14:35<andythenorth>Ammler: can you give Terkhen commit rights for FIRS?
14:35-!-fonsinchen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:37<Ammler>andythenorth: yes, I can
14:37<andythenorth>seems like a sensible route
14:37<Ammler>Terken, do we have already a ssh public key from you?
14:40<Terkhen>I don't think so
14:40<Terkhen>but I have to go, I'm already late :)
14:40<Terkhen>see you tomorrow
14:40<andythenorth>bye Terkhen
14:42<andythenorth>Ammler: maybe tomorrow :)
14:42<Yexo>andythenorth: updated patch online (same url0
14:43<Ammler>andythenorth: add him as dev
14:43<andythenorth>now I have to write some nfo to test it
14:43<andythenorth>Ammler: yes
14:43<andythenorth>if he goes nuts and recodes all of FIRS (a) I don't mind (b) I can always revert ;)
14:44<andythenorth>Yexo: so this just makes var A7 available in cb28, nothing else to know about?
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14:47<andythenorth>I don't have time to write the nfo right now, hopefully I will tonight or tomorrow
14:47<BWJM>Is it possible to move a Coal Mine? Or at least to create a new one somewhere?
14:49<frosch123>there is an advanced setting allowing to prospect primary industries, resp. to even fund them at a specific position
14:49<frosch123>and there is the magic bulldozer cheat to remove one
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14:50<BWJM>What is the difference between "prospecting" and "as other industries"?
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14:51<BWJM>Nevermind - Figured it out. Thanks
14:59<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19749 /trunk/src/newgrf_industries.cpp: -Fix: [NewGRF] possible divide-by-zero if a newgrf checked industry var 42 while the production level was 0
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15:04<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r19750 /trunk/src/newgrf_industries.cpp: -Fix: Var 0x43 is not 'safe' during callbacks 22 and 38 either.
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15:32<+glx>andythenorth: just saw your pastes, we said -p1 for hg
15:33<+glx>oh but it's an svn diff, so -p0
15:34<+glx>and of course always from root ;)
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15:38<Pyr0_><i'm using 1.0.1 and wanted to try 32bbp (not the EZ just de normal zoom). Is Szvengar full pack the latest pack for 32bbp graphics?
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15:41<Pyr0_>Optimized full pack 11/04/2010 in one TAR file: Full pack.
15:41<Pyr0_>is there any nightly build anywhere?
15:44<nighthawkcm>Hmm... try searching the forums or on the openttdcoop devzone - usually there are nightlies for most developments
15:44<nighthawkcm>here you go
15:47<Pyr0_>thanks but that is only for extras it's the baseset 8bbp replacement i'm looking for
15:50<andythenorth>frosch123: resp. industry closures ('mass extinction')
15:50<andythenorth>solving it correctly in newgrf is currently nigh-on impossible
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15:50<andythenorth>is it something that should be patched for? players keep on reporting it as an issue
15:50<frosch123>hmm, didn't i made some patch a month ago or make random changes depend on number of industries?
15:51<andythenorth>you did, but secondary industry still appears to go through mass waves of closure after 5 years
15:53<frosch123>are you using the default test, or a custom one? and if you are using the default one, are you using "smooth economy" ?
15:53<andythenorth>hmmm....closure is complicated :P
15:53<andythenorth>you sent me industrychangesdependoncountinsteadmapsize.diff
15:54*andythenorth wonders how far I tested that one
15:54<frosch123>but I guess industry closure of secondary industries is still broken for smooth economy
15:55<andythenorth>I think so
15:55<frosch123>so, does it work better if you disable "smooth economy" ?
15:55<andythenorth>industry closure code is a spaghetti of possibilities, I find it hard to follow
15:56<frosch123>i guess "smooth economy" should only be applied to primary industries.
15:56<andythenorth>I think so
15:56<andythenorth>don't see why it would apply to secondary
15:57<andythenorth>I forget, but I thought you maybe changed that already?
15:57<frosch123>well, most important: smooth economy does production/closure decisions for every industry every month, while non-smooth does one change in a map-size specific interval
15:58<andythenorth>so I always use smooth economy....and I always see the mass-extinctions :) which makes sense
15:58<frosch123>for a sane balance creation and closure should use the same "interval-type"
15:59<andythenorth>my suggestion was (a) prevent more than one of same industry type closing in a month (b) make the 'protected' period a newgrf action 0 property
16:00<andythenorth>I have 90% good nfo code to handle closure properly, but without grf-local storage I can't handle point (a) above
16:00<frosch123>(a) basically means "no smooth-economy for secondary industries"
16:00<frosch123>wrt. b) imo "protection periods" are stupid by design :p
16:02<frosch123>i cannot see any use in protecting a new industry a certain period. if the closure is not balanced then it will just close down after the protection period.
16:02<andythenorth>because I have yet to find the 'right' length for them :P
16:02<andythenorth>can we think of alternatives? Because I ran smack into the same issue
16:03<andythenorth>this is probably one of the most reported genuine issues I've seen players report in the forums
16:03<frosch123>imo, we should test a) first, before discussing b)
16:04<andythenorth>hmm. a) might still suck
16:04<frosch123>with smooth economy exactly 1/180 of the industries will close down every month starting after 5 years
16:05<frosch123>so on big maps that has to result in masses closing down at once
16:05<frosch123>using non-smooth will at least make them not close all on the 1st :)
16:06<andythenorth>if this was a flash game, I would generate a range of random numbers and use those as chances of closure. I would distribute those to industries, prevent any industry sharing the same chance, and maybe some weightings
16:07<andythenorth> make some industries far less likely to close than others
16:07<andythenorth>but in nfo I have no way to distribute a range across industries. I've thought of a hack using the town index, but that's a messy hack
16:07<frosch123>you can do that all with the random production change callback
16:08<andythenorth>yup, I have working code for nearly all of it
16:09<frosch123>callback 29 has random bits and can return close or stay. there are also random bits for the industry, the industrylayout, the industry colour, and well the industry type
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16:09<andythenorth>but they are never guaranteed random across the grf
16:09<andythenorth>sorry, that's badly worded
16:09<frosch123>what do you mean with "random across the grf" ?
16:10<andythenorth>I need pseudo-random :P
16:10<frosch123>random is random. there more industries there are on big maps, the more randomness has no effect as it will just turn into grey
16:10<andythenorth>yup I know
16:11<frosch123>so, what kind of "random" do you want?
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16:12<andythenorth>think we discussed this at some length before....the conclusion was that fooling around with random / pseudo random was a bad route
16:12<frosch123>btw. if there are lots of industries (on big maps), i cannot imagine anything but lots of closures. (that is, news about closures are silly in any case on big maps)
16:12<andythenorth>think we concluded that grf-local storage was the only practical route to prevent >1 industry of same type closing per month
16:12<andythenorth>I'm not too bothered about *really* big maps with *lots* of industries
16:13<andythenorth>the gameplay effect is diminished. So 3 steel mills close in one month, but you have 75 left. Big deal
16:13<frosch123>see, that is what i totally do not understand :) "prevent > 1 industry of same type closing per month" sounds totally wrong if there are 1000 industries of the type on the map
16:14<andythenorth>the problem is on smaller maps / sensible numbers of industries
16:14<andythenorth>'boom, and all my industries were gone'
16:14<frosch123>i could understand if you would want to enforce some distribution of closured, e.g. either pick industries with far disatance from each other, or pick a bunch of industries from one region. but just limiting the amount...
16:14<nighthawkcm>Well, the major problem arises with more complicated industry setups like ecs or firs - and if one industry is there a 100 times - you can always change the map creation industry setting or use the magic bulldozer
16:15<andythenorth>in fact, it's not even industries of the same type. Suddenly after 5 years, the map loses an awful lot of industries...and players find it weird
16:15<frosch123>but that is the problem of the weird "5 years". then that 5 year period should be randomised on game start, so they do not start at once
16:16<andythenorth>yes to the randomised - but across what range?
16:16<andythenorth>I just want to spread industry closures in time. The most robust way is a limit to the total number of industries that can close in a month. That limit can scale by map size / number of industries
16:16<andythenorth>And to implement that needs grf-local storage, or have the game handle it :)
16:16<nighthawkcm>well, if you paly a 1024 * 1024 map - with all the industry firs has, not a single one should close down as there is no overflow under normal circumstances
16:16<frosch123>across 0-5 years of course. that is what it turns into when playing more than 5 years
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16:17<frosch123>[22:16] <andythenorth> And to implement that needs grf-local storage, or have the game handle it :) <- no, that is just point a)
16:18<andythenorth>IIRC I spent some time trying to distribute the closure period. Maybe I need to revise my code :o
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16:24<andythenorth>if only I could do 'closure_period_this_industry = array.pop(random_position)' where array contains months * num industries
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16:25<nighthawkcm>Night guys
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16:26<andythenorth>I am missing something fricking obvious somewhere :P
16:27<Alberth>aside from the fact that a local NewGRF cannot not decide about such global matters?
16:28<Alberth>not to mention the disaster that you get when you ever want to have a scenario
16:28<andythenorth>Alberth: should I even by trying to solve this problem?
16:28<andythenorth>by / be /s
16:28<Alberth>I believe you shouldn't
16:28<andythenorth>what's the scenario disaster?
16:29<Alberth>some form of scripted economic control
16:29<andythenorth>I don't think FIRS should be controlling industry closure to this degree.
16:30<andythenorth>But this is the most common player complaint I get. I guess I have to try and do *something* about it :(
16:30<Alberth>gives nice results and VERY complicated work-arounds when factories don't bother about it, and close down on their own
16:30<Alberth>the same happens with plain industry chains
16:31<Alberth>so why is it so much more of a problem in your chain?
16:31<andythenorth>well it's pretty annoying in the default chain
16:31<andythenorth>and in PBI
16:32<Alberth>yeah, OpenTTD sucks in this respect
16:33<frosch123>[22:24] <andythenorth> if only I could do 'closure_period_this_industry = array.pop(random_position)' where array contains months * num industries <- you have persistent storage and var 67?
16:33<andythenorth>doesn't help
16:34<andythenorth>still very easy for an industry to close in the same month as other industries. The array.pop line matters in my pseudo code :P
16:35<andythenorth>Alberth: well if one of us could figure out what *should* be done, I can't see the actual fix being very hard to implement in OTTD
16:35<andythenorth>except that economy code is already quite a spaghetti when I tried to read it
16:35<Alberth>no doubt it is the usual mess :)
16:36<andythenorth>too many fricking built in options combined with newgrf support that has even more options....
16:37<Alberth>andythenorth: as far as I can see, to have a nice global solution, you need a global plan, or be able to communicate between plants so you can compute a plan.
16:37<andythenorth>global solution
16:37<andythenorth>all we need to do is persuade players that the game didn't suddenly kill all the industries at once
16:37<Alberth>neither is possible afaik in NewGRF, thus something else is needed
16:38<frosch123> <- andythenorth: that i can offer for a)
16:38<andythenorth>I love that filename :)
16:41<frosch123>Alberth: we can add an advanced setting to scale _economy.industry_daily_change_counter. that way creation, closure and production-changes could be slowed down while keeping the ratio inmodified
16:41<frosch123>that would allow players to have the same amount of industry changes on a map with 5000 industries as on a map with 10 industries
16:41<frosch123>so they can read all news :p
16:41<Alberth>smooth_economy ? 180 : 2 <-- wasn't that to prevent a flood of messages at the first of the month?
16:42<andythenorth>people still have news turned on?
16:42<andythenorth>my word
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16:42<frosch123>Alberth: previously that code was executed every month for every industry for smooth, and every month (on 256x256) for _one_ industry for non-smooth
16:43<frosch123>that change disabled smooth for secondary industries as it is unbalanced with creation of new industries
16:44<Alberth>frosch123: I was thnking about some form of feedback control where you have a set-point of x industries, and you count the actual number, and then decide whether to create a new industry.
16:44<Alberth>*set-point for each type
16:44<frosch123>players could also set that counter increment to zero, and would then get some kind of manual industries when using non-smooth economy
16:45<Alberth>having manual industries sounds like a useful option to me
16:45<frosch123>then the same setting would need applying to the smooth economy of primary industries. however, in any case newgrfs which close industries via the random callback are doomed in any case (but they are already now)
16:46<Alberth>my solution was to ctreate a new industry when that happens, a few months later :p
16:46-!-[com]buster is now known as Combuster
16:47<frosch123>Alberth: that reminds me about a different issue. you can control the initial amount of industries created on a map, but in the long run it will always converge to the same amount
16:48<Alberth>frosch123: cannot oversee what all changes do, but patch looks useful
16:48*andythenorth tests the patch from frosch123
16:48<andythenorth>five years on fast forward I guess. Terkhen has a better way, but I don't know how to do it:o
16:50<frosch123> <- that patch would make the number of industries depend on the present number of industries, but the problem with this approach is, that the number of industries diverges exponentially. i.e. the more industries there are, the more are created, and the less there are the less are created :s
16:50<Alberth>oops, rm != mv :(
16:53<Alberth>doesn't sound like a good plan, you'll end with a mono-culture in industries :p
16:55<andythenorth>game started 1990, first industry closed 27-03-1991
16:55<andythenorth>second closure 13-05-1991
16:59<frosch123>hmm, no, i missed the point of "industrychangesdependoncountinsteadmapsize.diff" :p it does not affect closure/creation ratio, but prevents a single industry on a 2kx2k map changing production twice a day
17:00<andythenorth>vehicles are much simpler than industries :P
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17:04<andythenorth>01-08-1992: two power stations close in same month
17:04<andythenorth>but....that's my code :)
17:04<andythenorth>this is not exactly a scientific test
17:05<frosch123>what about new industries?
17:05<Alberth>sure it is, you just need to repeat it often enough :)
17:06<andythenorth>frosch123: two new industries built in 1990, none since
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17:09<andythenorth>22-02-1993 new fruit plantation
17:10*andythenorth wonders how new industry construction chance interacts with probability during random gameplay for each industry?
17:10<frosch123>ah, yes, i can remember that day. me any my school mates visited the plantation
17:10<andythenorth>must have been a nice day out to Tinbourne
17:13<andythenorth>new steel mill just got built 28-10-1993
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17:28<andythenorth>frosch123: :|
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17:34<frosch123> ind->last_prod_year = _cur_year - RandomRange(5); <- so, what does not work about that?
17:34<andythenorth>it's 1990, sign?
17:35<andythenorth>sign issue?
17:35<frosch123>(sure it would fail if you start in year 1-5 :p)
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17:46*andythenorth gives up on industry closure (again) :P
17:47<andythenorth>FIRS will prevent closure until we've figured out a good way to solve the unsolvable :)
17:59<Lakie>Just quickly, which plane is the x plane in (o)ttd?
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17:59*Lakie always gets confused
17:59<@Rubidium>the plane that bombs ufos?
17:59<Lakie>Lol, na, tile coord
18:00<Lakie>Ok, thankyou. :)
18:00<frosch123>top of viewport.cpp
18:01<andythenorth>frosch123: I am actually baffled why your last_prod_year patch produces those results
18:01<andythenorth>far as I can see it should work
18:01<andythenorth>I've read industry_cmd.cpp
18:01<frosch123>andythenorth: actually it seems to work for me
18:02<frosch123>though i uses default industries
18:02<frosch123>maybe firs is unbalanced as there are more secondary industries than primary?
18:02<andythenorth>could be
18:03<andythenorth>it just seems weird that there are still very few closures in the first 5 years, then a mass wave
18:06<frosch123>i might do some statistics tomorrow comparing firs and default industries
18:06<andythenorth>Terkhen had a patch that outputs closures to the console IIRC
18:08<frosch123>well, unless it is more than a few printfs i can faster do that myself than asking :p
18:08<frosch123>anyway, night
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18:40<planetmaker>I'd propose a poison distribution of lifetime till closure for industries
18:40<planetmaker>with max=5(?) 10(?) years
18:41<planetmaker>maybe map size dependent
18:41<planetmaker>as building speed = linear, and mapsize = quadratic behaviour
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19:48<Nite_Owl>Hello all
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---Logclosed Sun May 02 00:00:21 2010