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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-05-04

---Logopened Tue May 04 00:00:00 2010
---Daychanged Tue May 04 2010
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01:21<dihedral>morning
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01:55<Terkhen>good morning
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02:01<planetmaker>good morning
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02:13<nighthawk_c_m>moin
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---Logclosed Tue May 04 03:03:28 2010
---Logopened Tue May 04 03:03:34 2010
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03:12<Noldo>planetmaker: parser stuff in NML looks nice
03:19-!-valhallasw [~valhallas@s55928dd9.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd
03:24<@peter1138>hurr
03:25<@peter1138>nvidia drivers are broken in debian squeeze :s
03:25<dihedral>\o/
03:25<Noldo>it happens
03:26<@peter1138>the package hasn't been updated since lenny
03:26<@peter1138>but the kernel is different
03:26<@peter1138>so...
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03:28<dihedral>hehe
03:29<@peter1138>le sigh
03:29<Noldo>I remember using nvidia stuff from sid quite often when using debian
03:33<@peter1138>yeah, sid has 190.53
03:36*peter1138 ponders a native freedos partition
03:36<dihedral>uhh...
03:44<planetmaker>Noldo, it certainly will help the projects, if people start using it (more) :-)
03:45<Noldo>planetmaker: where is the magic that reads those http://www.hs.fi/fingerpori/
03:45<Noldo>argh
03:45<Noldo>planetmaker: where is the magic that reads those 'param_assignment : param EQ expression SEMICOLON'
03:45<Noldo>or are they just comments
03:45<planetmaker>you mean in the NML source?
03:45<Noldo>yes
03:46<Noldo>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/revisions/115/entry/nml/parser.py
03:46<planetmaker>dunno by heart. It might even be in the python lex extension
03:46<planetmaker>or there
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03:47<planetmaker>http://www.dabeaz.com/ply/
03:47<Noldo>ok, great
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04:19<dihedral>uh - a yorick
04:21<yorick>a yorick?!
04:21<@peter1138>alas, poor yorick
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08:23<Ammler>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=40162&p=875195#p875195 <-- very helpful comment :-(
08:24<@Rubidium>Ammler: he basically says: please make even more dreadful icons and cursors, I'll gladly use those over the current ones
08:24<SmatZ>:D
08:25<SmatZ>hmm isn't OGFX mouse cursor a bit misplaced?
08:25<SmatZ>it seems the cursor "active point" isn't in the cursor's top
08:25<dihedral>:-P
08:26<SmatZ>hmm it seems to be unrelated to OGFX
08:27<SmatZ>it's caused by foundations
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08:51<planetmaker>hm, no, I won't answer there "go right ahead to draw better ones"
08:52<@peter1138>SmatZ needs a graphics tablet puck
08:52<@peter1138>the type with a window and cross hairs for accurate positioning
08:52<yorick>I have one
08:53<yorick>for 100 euros he can buy it
08:53<yorick>(it's one of those obscure ones that doesn't work on linux and requires batteries)
08:53<yorick>also without cross hairs :)
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09:02<dihedral>why on earth by one that aint from graphire?
09:02<dihedral>erm... wacom ^^
09:03<SmatZ>hehe :)
09:05<yorick>it's supposed to be using wacom drivers
09:05<yorick>but it's an aiptek tablet
09:06<yorick>so it uses aiptek drivers which don't work
09:06<yorick>someone bought it for me
09:06<dihedral>i'd not even buy a tablet if it's not from wacom
09:06<dihedral>ah
09:06<dihedral>that explains :-P
09:07<yorick>and windows drivers suck
09:07<yorick>and windows generic drivers don't do pressure
09:12<@Belugas>hello
09:12<yorick>hello sir Belugas
09:13<@Belugas>Yo, Rick !
09:13<yorick>:-|
09:13<yorick>you people decided to break my stuff
09:13<yorick>so I'm fixing my stuff :)
09:14<SmatZ>where have you been?
09:14<yorick>dalnet, mostly
09:14<dihedral>never mind ^^
09:15<@Belugas>hello, Yorick :) Soory, i was a bit... facetious
09:16<yorick>:-)
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10:33<Zuu>hmm, I've managed to press the wrong button of forward and pause with my Wacom and OGFX many times.
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10:37<nicfer>hello all
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10:37<yorick>hello
10:37<nicfer>question, is cargo dEst dead?
10:38<yorick>ping peter1138
10:38<yorick>he knows
10:39<nicfer>last version is based on 0.7.0 nightlies
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10:47<planetmaker>it is
10:47<planetmaker>the answer is quite obvious as you gave it yourself already :-)
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12:31<asilv>how nice, it's snowing again
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12:36<SmatZ>asilv: it's snowing in Finland?
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12:38<asilv>yes
12:39<asilv>temperature is +1C so it melts as soon as it hits the ground
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12:40<SmatZ>nice
12:48<Prof_Frink>It was snowing in England yesterday.
12:50<TrueBrain>england is crazy anyway
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13:04<+glx>there was snow in France too
13:05<Noldo>it's been raining all kinds of stuff
13:05<+glx>in Ireland they had the volcano again
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13:06<Eddi|zuHause>it wasn't snow, it was fallout from the volcano ashes :p
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13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19757 /trunk/src/lang/ (luxembourgish.txt portuguese.txt unfinished/irish.txt):
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: irish - 253 changes by tem
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 25 changes by Phreeze
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: portuguese - 1 changes by JayCity
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14:18<andythenorth>did some mac bugs get worked on?
14:23<andythenorth>Alberth: the newgrf gui stuff....my instinct is that v2 might be the better one.
14:23<andythenorth>Have you used the itunes interface?
14:24<Alberth>no idea, ok please post a post :), no
14:24<andythenorth>meh, forums :P
14:24<Alberth>(sorry, had a bad day at the office)
14:24<andythenorth>ok :)
14:25<Alberth>I really like the 1 display version, what is bad about it?
14:27<Alberth>or, why is the 2 display one better?
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14:29<andythenorth>Alberth: I like the 1 display version.
14:29<andythenorth>I mentioned itunes because it is a similar design pattern
14:29<andythenorth>there is filter-in-place + checkboxes to enable / disable songs.
14:30<Alberth>oh, v2 = 1 display version? I thought I numbered them the other way around
14:30<andythenorth>I just didn't read that properly :)
14:30*Alberth hugs andythenorth
14:30<andythenorth>I don't know if newgrf window solves the same problem as itunes, so it may be a bad use of patterns....but I think it could work
14:31<Alberth>the big thing against it is that it is more difficult to grasp at first, I think
14:33<Alberth>on the other hand, 2 display of which always 1 is active, and with every grf in exactly one of the displays, is also not a big step forwards
14:33*Alberth puts on Korn
14:33<andythenorth>I don't like these 2 display things. I find them confusing
14:34*andythenorth looks at firefox plugins GUI
14:34<Alberth>I will read the comments more closely tomorrow.
14:34<andythenorth>hmm not much to learn from firefox
14:35*andythenorth likes GUI problems :)
14:35*andythenorth doesn't trust a lot of the forum opinions on GUI problems :P
14:35<Alberth>also, nice progress on the minimap legends, it seems.
14:35<Alberth>you have seen FS#3812? :p
14:36<andythenorth>I have now
14:36<Alberth>expected outcome at the forum is 50%/50%, right? :)
14:37<andythenorth>:)
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14:39<Eddi|zuHause>is that who i think it is?
14:39-!-ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
14:39<yorick>it looks like him
14:40-!-heffer_ [~felix@mue-88-130-84-181.dsl.tropolys.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:41<yorick>and it isn't
14:42<yorick>the real one is ludde [~b@c83-248-101-208.bredband.comhem.se]
14:43<@Rubidium>andythenorth: who would be working on the mac bugs?
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>how could there be two of these in sweden?
14:43<yorick>Eddi|zuHause: this one is Ludvig Kjellsson
14:44<andythenorth>Rubidium: KingRobot posted a build...wasn't sure if he has actually done new work, or just applied existing patches
14:44<andythenorth>it was in the openttd forum
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>dear cat. the space bar is not a pillow.
14:45<@Rubidium>andythenorth: they post builds, nothing more... besides some googleing around (at least that's how it looks to me)
14:46<andythenorth>ho hum
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>it's funny, the cat puts the head on the space bar, and then watches the cursor move
14:48<Alberth>"typing for cats, lesson #1"
14:49<SpComb>what would you do if you were a cat?
14:50<Alberth>sleep at a warm cozy place near a human that strokes me
14:50<andythenorth>fix the mac build. cats prefer macs :P
14:50<andythenorth>we probably have about as much chance of Eddi's cat fixing it as a mac user
14:50<Alberth>andythenorth: cats hunt mice, not bugs
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>that is not true, my cats hunt flies
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>and wasps
14:51<@Belugas>mine too mine too!
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>and basically everything else that moves and is smaller than them
14:51<@Belugas>and spiders
14:51<@Belugas>and my shoes laces...
14:57*andythenorth still had decision paralysis about hovercraft
14:57<andythenorth>such a lot of thought about so few pixels :P
14:58*Alberth gives andythenorth some dice
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15:00<andythenorth>roll 1 for faster unloaded than loaded. roll 2 for refit to faster with smaller capacity, slower with higher capacity, roll 3 for both
15:01<Zuu>Nice to hear that you Alberth like the 1 display version.
15:02<Zuu>Whichever you want to chose I'm sure you can pick some forum posts as motivation for your decision. :-p
15:02<yorick>I like the 2 display version
15:03<yorick>my cat is usually scared of everything that moves
15:03<yorick>including flies, butterflies and mice
15:03<yorick>laser dots are fine :)
15:04<Zuu>I find the 1 display version easier to understand. Which should be good for the noobs. (hopefully)
15:04<yorick>but I find the 2 display version useful
15:04-!-fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbaafe6.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:04<yorick>lets make it configurable
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15:06*andythenorth thinks the newgrf GUI window is only one part of the problem
15:06<andythenorth>the whole newgrf experience could use a bit of love
15:07<@Belugas>[14:33] * Alberth puts on Korn <-- COOL!
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15:08<andythenorth>so players download stuff via bananas, there's no easy access to a read me or manual for each newgrf, then they have to set parameters with bit maps etc.
15:08<andythenorth>frosch123 had some thoughts http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/texts/StaticGRFInfo.txt
15:08<Ammler>possibility to load static grfs for example
15:09<andythenorth>I would like to think about it end-to-end, from Bananas onwards
15:09*Alberth clears the path for andythenorth
15:09<andythenorth>:D
15:10*andythenorth is worried about turning into mb
15:12<andythenorth>ok so my implementation suggestions are usually bad
15:12<andythenorth>but how could a newgrf provide more information within the game interface?
15:13<andythenorth>either via bananas (store the info on the web), or in the grf itself (extended info of some kind)
15:13<andythenorth>I dunno which is best
15:13<frosch123>hmm, there are some advantages of the 2 view gui: one could later add an option switch the "active grf" list between normal and static grfs, and a similiar gui could be used for ais. that is, when number of ais grows it also needs an more advanced gui, but in contrast to grfs you can load one ai multiple times, which looks more intuitive with 2 views
15:13-!-Muxy [~Muxy@main.goulp.net] has joined #openttd
15:14<yorick>andythenorth: I think it should do both
15:16<andythenorth>no
15:16<andythenorth>information is already spread around enough places.
15:17<andythenorth>currently for a newgrf set I maintain:
15:17<andythenorth>- a read me txt, a bananas entry, a forum page, a newgrf entry, an entry on my site, and possibly a pdf manual
15:17<frosch123>[21:13] <andythenorth> I dunno which is best <- imo version specific information belongs into the grf, while general/up-to-date information belongs on the web
15:18<andythenorth>and in terms of bandwidth costs etc?
15:18<andythenorth>and anything else like memory usage of grfs and other things I tend to overlook?
15:19<frosch123>bandwidth? that is a matter of the format you use :)
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15:20<andythenorth>and if I'm playing with no web connection...essential stuff needs to be locally with the grf
15:21<Alberth>inside seems pretty locally with the grf to me :)
15:21<andythenorth>yup
15:21<andythenorth>just thinking out load
15:21<Alberth>it also never gets lost then
15:21<andythenorth>loud /s
15:21<frosch123>in the grf? or in the tar? only the grf is loaded by ottd, and you can only put stuff in the grf which is displayed inside ottd. the latter quite limits the format and the amount of information
15:21<andythenorth>can the game render stuff from a text file?
15:22<andythenorth>let me put it another way: I have no idea where the readme files go when Bananas downloads them
15:22<frosch123>extracting a pdf from the tar and running an external pdf viewer is something different
15:22<andythenorth>I guess the game has no cross-platform way to open files externally?
15:22<Alberth>you guessed right :)
15:22<andythenorth>makes sense
15:23*andythenorth counts some words
15:23<Alberth>cat mytext | wc -w
15:24<yorick>you can do wc -w mytext
15:24<frosch123>if the average ubuntu/osx user wasn't that noobish, i would suggest to do a windows specific way and to do the rest via an executable-path in openttd.cfg
15:24<yorick>less animal-cruel than piping cats :)
15:25<frosch123>so currently there would only be an option to show textfiles inside ottd
15:25<frosch123>which will likely be very ugly :s
15:25<andythenorth>does 10,000 chars sound a lot to show in a scrolling window inside ottd?
15:25<andythenorth>the HEQS manual is 10k chars, 4 pages pdf
15:25*andythenorth knows pdf is out of the question btw
15:25<frosch123>plain text? no images?
15:26<Alberth>section heading, empty lines?
15:26-!-Zuu_ [~Zuu@c-f5f9e253.025-58-6e6b702.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #openttd
15:26<andythenorth>no images
15:26<Alberth>@calc 10000/80
15:26<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 125
15:26<andythenorth>section headings and empty lines would be needed
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15:27-!-Zuu_ is now known as Zuu
15:27*andythenorth is used to the existing control chars and wouldn't mind using those if that was the only way
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15:27<andythenorth>although if we have to use the existing control chars a converter app might be worthwhile :P
15:28<Alberth>I always use restructuredtext for plain text documents
15:28<frosch123>hmm. bananas readmes are not translateable, are they?
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15:35<Zuu>frosch123: Good points regarding 2 part gui. - Possibility to make a similar gui for AIs later.
15:37*Alberth is puzzled, how is a newgrf and a ai connected?
15:37<andythenorth>hmm
15:38<frosch123>well, you have a list of available ones, select some for the game. you can view some information about each ai, and you can set parameters
15:38<andythenorth>restructured text is available in zope which is the framework running my site
15:38-!-KritiK [~Maxim@95-27-143-181.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
15:38<Zuu>with 2 views you can select multiple AIs which would be hard on the 1-display edition of the gui.
15:38<frosch123>is there any difference between ai settings and newgrf settings, except the the same ai can be loaded multiple times, and there is a special "random" ai?
15:39<Zuu>having similar guis for NewGRFs and AIs is good as the users only need to learn it once then.
15:39<Alberth>andythenorth: there is also a restructuredtext -> html convertor
15:39<Zuu>The AI settings have defaults based on difficulty, but that is not displayed currently.
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15:40<andythenorth>Alberth: that was the direction of my thinking....
15:41<Zuu>Well, you see the current AI settings and they change when you change difficulty, so in some sense it is displayed currently if you are aware of it.
15:42<Zuu>But that is probably a minor difference.
15:43*andythenorth wonders if the in game guis for 'add ons' should mirror bananas site
15:43<andythenorth>maybe set a new game up by choosing heightmap / scenario, newgrfs, AIs, other settings
15:44<andythenorth>a picture would be worth a lot of words here :P
15:44<Zuu>I see a picture for my inner views, but duno if it looks like yours :-p
15:49<andythenorth>I have been experimenting with AIs recently. I found it baffling to add one to the game
15:49<andythenorth>I can be quite stupid sometimes though :|
15:50<Zuu>When AI started out it picked an AI by random and your only way to control which AI it should take was to control which AI files OpenTTD found by moving the files around. :-) Then they added a -a parameter and only just before trunk merge, the gui was added.
15:51<Zuu>When NoAI*
15:51<Zuu>That said, do you have any specific question?
15:52<andythenorth>no I figured it out, it just took me a while
15:54<andythenorth>so with restructured text, I could maintain one 'about this newgrf' document and publish in many places easily...seems like a good idea
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16:11*andythenorth stops talking at other people and goes write code
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16:19<Zuu>Hmm, just creating a class instance and store the instances in a list for every town and industry on a dense 2048*2048 map takes forever... :-)
16:19<Zuu>I guess I have to by random select maximum X number of towns and Y number of industries to look at.
16:20<frosch123>lets' reduce the maximum size to 1kx1k :p
16:21<Alberth>4 times as much room in a tile :p
16:22<frosch123>do ais get oom killed?
16:22<Zuu>AIAbstractList.Randomize() would be nice so you could use C++ code to randomize the list of industries. Else I guess just runnig a squirrel function for every industry to assign a random value to it would take quite long time.
16:23<frosch123>isn't there already such function?
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16:23<Zuu>AIs that run atomic operations that take long can freeze OpenTTD for long.
16:24<Zuu>Such as valuating a very large list.
16:25<Zuu>Wow, in 10 ingame years it added all towns and industries to a squrrel array (but I only have high amount of towns and medium amount of industries)
16:26<SmatZ>true, but I think the fact that commands aren't allowed while valuating a list prevents people from doing too much things there
16:26<SmatZ>(I may be wrong)
16:26<frosch123>ok, i have no idea about the execution times of ais. i would just have evaluated some random function, and then sorted by value
16:27<Zuu>Usually randomizing a list is fairly easy. The problem is that randomizing very large lists means freezing OpenTTD while doing it.
16:28<Zuu>But I need to check my code, because it was only a total of 17621 towns and industries that it added. Shouldn't take that long. But then those 17621 instances maybe take a while to create.
16:29*andythenorth discovers he's accidentally drawn modular buildings
16:31<Zuu>Actually picking a good connection among those 17000 nodes was fairly quick as it doesn't do a full search. It picks the k best nodes and then search through all other nodes for each of these k nodes. Since k is rather small it doesn't take very long.
16:32-!-tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-22-201.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:33<PeterT>the response time to ap+ commands in 1.0.1 is so much faster!
16:34<SmatZ>PeterT: compared to what?
16:34<PeterT>SmatZ: 1.0.0
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16:34<PeterT>and 0.7.5
16:34<frosch123>what got changed?
16:34<SmatZ>PeterT: I don't think there was any change that could affect that
16:35<PeterT>Maybe my server decided to be faster
16:35<SmatZ>hehe :)
16:43<frosch123>night
16:43*andythenorth inspect in place wins again
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16:46<andythenorth>making industry layouts is fun
16:46<andythenorth>all you have to do is count a lot :)
16:48*andythenorth wonders how many layouts to do before it's TMWFTLB
16:48<@Rubidium>#(TMWFTLB)-1
16:49<andythenorth>an entirely accurate answer :P
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16:51<Terkhen>until it gets boring
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16:53<andythenorth>it's kind of fun. you should have a go. Then I get to critique your FIRS work :)
16:53<andythenorth>mostly other people get to critique my work. A change would be nice
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16:55<Terkhen>you'd have it easy, I can't code anything more complicated than action0/7 and I can't draw at all :P
16:56<andythenorth>making industry layouts is copy, paste. if you can manipulate an xy grid in your head and count from 0, you'd be fine :P
16:57<andythenorth>it really is fun & satisfying :)
16:58-!-asilv [~as@h-62-142-160-55.joensuunelli.fi] has quit []
16:59<Terkhen>still sounds complicated :P
16:59<Terkhen>I'm currently playtesting the spanish translation
17:02<andythenorth>well I'll keep all the fun to myself then :)
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17:09<andythenorth>6 textile mill layouts is probably enough
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17:21*Zuu decides it is a good idea to go to sleep
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17:22*andythenorth votes with Zuu
17:22<andythenorth>good night
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17:24<Terkhen>me too, good night
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18:04<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19758 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 3 dirs): -Add: {HEIGHT} string command
18:05<PeterT>translated.
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18:10<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19759 /trunk/src/lang/ (50 files in 2 dirs): -Change: use the {HEIGHT} command for the measurement tool
18:12<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19760 /trunk/src/ (55 files in 3 dirs): -Change: use the {HEIGHT} command for the smallmap legend
18:15<murr4y>i'd guess people in a channel like #openttd would be interested in this: http://www.wolfire.com/humble
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18:15<murr4y>don't mean to break any rule or anything by posting it!
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18:20<yorick>murr4y: argh
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18:23<murr4y>:o
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18:28<lugo>murr4y, rofl
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18:29<@Rubidium>sounds like it's one of those sites you shouldn't visit... so my instincts were right :)
18:33<murr4y>i wouldn't say it is :)
18:33<murr4y>"The Humble Indie Bundle (pay what you want for five awesome indie games)"
18:34<murr4y>i just came across it, thought it was pretty cool
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18:34<murr4y>i know world of goo is awesome (imo anyway), don't know about the other games though
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20:08<Eddi|zuHause>hm... if we rescale the height level legend to fixed heights, we need as next step more height levels to create actual mountains (4000m == 160 levels at 25m per level))
20:08<Eddi|zuHause>preferably with additional steep slopes...
20:09<Eddi|zuHause>and cliffs
20:11<__ln__>actual mountains will take huge areas of map space
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20:23<fjb>Hm, so make more and smaller tiles, bigger houses etc., just rescale everything. :-)
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21:09<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: that's why you need steeper slopes
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23:25<KingRobot>ping planetmaker
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---Logclosed Wed May 05 00:00:27 2010