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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-05-05

---Logopened Wed May 05 00:00:27 2010
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02:17<Terkhen>good morning
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02:44<andythenorth>hi hi
02:45<Alberth>hi andy
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03:54<planetmaker>pong KingRobot
03:54<planetmaker>good morning folks
03:55<KingRobot>I posted another patch on that cursor bug if you want to take a look
03:56<KingRobot>It's not a final fix because it causes some problems the other way around (making the cursor disappear when it shouldn't), but I need to know if it fixes the issue on your end.
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03:56<KingRobot>If it does, I'll clean it up and make it fix both problems.
03:56<planetmaker>I haven't tested your (1st) patch under 10.4
03:57<planetmaker>And yes, you're right it's most probably two completely different issues
03:57<KingRobot>Are you on 10.5?
03:58<KingRobot>I'm on 10 6 3
03:58<planetmaker>with a bit more time at hand another day I might test on 10.4. It's on my external HD
03:59<KingRobot>Do you have time to see if patch #2 fixes the issue you described?
03:59<planetmaker>just testing
04:03<KingRobot>Alright. Don't worry about 10.4. If this is good, I'll make them both work together and then we can test on 10.4
04:03<planetmaker>works perfectly. I added a comment to FS
04:03<planetmaker>what systems can you test on?
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04:05<KingRobot>I have a MBP and an MB, both on 10.6.3, and a install of 10.5.8 that's not up and running right now. Sadly no PPC. I wish I had a PPC for testing some of my products.
04:05<planetmaker>he, yeah
04:06<KingRobot>I had a G4 but it died a few months back and I haven't been able to replace it yet.
04:06<planetmaker>that was PPC?
04:06<KingRobot>*raised eyebrow*
04:06<KingRobot>You're not a mac person, are you?
04:07<planetmaker>define 'mac person' ;-)
04:07<KingRobot>Someone who's used them for 10+ years or at least knows their history to that extent
04:07<planetmaker>But no, I didn't study the past architectures. So I guess they were still with PPC back then
04:07<KingRobot>G3 G4 G5 were all PowerPC.
04:07<planetmaker>No, I didn't use them that long
04:08<KingRobot>They switched to Intel after the G5
04:08<planetmaker>I know that they switched ;-)
04:08<@peter1138>hurr, told exchange imap to require ssl and removed the non-ssl port
04:09<@peter1138>and ... it ignores it
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04:09<planetmaker>I guess I have one of the first intel macbooks
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04:13<planetmaker>KingRobot: what problems do you expect in windowed mode?
04:14<KingRobot>The cursor state isn't being set properly
04:14<KingRobot>So for some reason, it doesn't unhide the cursor sometimes when coming outside the window
04:15<planetmaker>hm, doesn't sound good either
04:16<KingRobot>The whole thing should be reworked to be event based (triggered by entering or exiting the view window) rather than updated every time there is a mouse movement
04:16<planetmaker>he :-)
04:17<KingRobot>Actually I don't think it will be too bad.
04:17<planetmaker>well only thing I can say it works here and now
04:17<planetmaker>good job :-)
04:17<KingRobot>Did you see the notes on the MIDI crash?
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04:18<planetmaker>yes, I saw that. Not sure what to do about it though
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04:19<KingRobot>Yeah, I wasn't either.
04:19<KingRobot>Although I was surprised to see that the file cause no problems under windows and linux
04:20<Noldo>is the corrupt file from the original TTD files?
04:20<KingRobot>Several of the MIDI editors I tried to open the file with choked completely and wouldn't even open it.
04:20<KingRobot>I think it's from the new sound set
04:20<KingRobot>LittleBlueBoxCar or something like that
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04:28<planetmaker>yes, it's OpenMSX
04:29<planetmaker>Well, I can ask the artist to revise that song and (temporarily) remove it from OpenMSX.
04:29<planetmaker>It's not something which I'm entirely happy with either, though
04:29<planetmaker>It's a nice song ;-)
04:34<@Rubidium>so let is be caused by OpenMSX; it shouldn't crash on what is considered an invalid midi file
04:36<planetmaker>yes, that's why I'm undecided on what to do :-)
04:39*Alberth wonders how many NewGRFs would survive if OpenTTD used the removal policy
04:40<@Rubidium>almost none, cause removing NewGRFs can break OpenTTD
04:43<planetmaker>Alberth, I meant removing as in fixing. And... NewGRF kinda do that usually :-)
04:43<planetmaker>well... not usually but sometimes :-P
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05:03<@peter1138>men, ladies and dihedrals
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06:45*dihedral had an old nickname come back to mind he had vor yorick some time ago - but does not think yorick likes it ^^
06:46<@peter1138>lobster's quit message?
06:47<dihedral>what was lobsters quit message?
06:48<yorick>something with vaginas
06:48<@peter1138>something about a vagina
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07:06<dihedral>rdns finaly got fixed (on the side of the hoster)
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09:35<dihedral>hey ho sir Belugas
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10:03<Alberth>hello Sir
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10:35<@Belugas>Hello to you two both :)
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10:38<dihedral>"hello to you, too, you two" :-P
10:53<Eddi|zuHause>"hello to U2, you two and you, too"
10:55<__ln__>"hello to U2, you to and you, too, on youtube"
10:56<Eddi|zuHause>you're out.
10:56<dihedral>"hello to you two, you two, too, and you two: fuck off"
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11:10<@Belugas>i love this channel!
11:10<@Belugas>I really DO :D
11:12<planetmaker>whom do you do? ;-)
11:13*planetmaker waves hello :-)
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11:35<@Belugas>hey mister maker :)
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11:36<Newbie>How can I join a OpenTTD server?
11:36<planetmaker>multiplayer -> join server
11:37<Newbie>Any reason for the game to just, bomb out?
11:37<planetmaker>those with a green dot are those where you meet all the requirements (correct version, correct newgrfs)
11:37<planetmaker>define "bomb out"
11:38<Newbie>when I click "Multiplayer", the game waits and the the screen goes black
11:39<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
11:39<planetmaker>^ you made sure that the ports are open?
11:39<planetmaker>at least 3979?
11:39<Mazur>Well, the Ruby port is open. Want a glass?
11:39<planetmaker>and 3978 if you want content download?
11:40<planetmaker>Mazur, yes please.
11:40<Newbie>I am really new to OpenTTD, so no
11:40<planetmaker>a good port is nothing to neglect :-P
11:40<planetmaker>Newbie, that's a setting of your operating system and /or your firewall and router
11:40<Mazur>And possibly your ISP.
11:40<Newbie>Ill try again
11:42<Newbie>I can't manage to view any servers
11:43<+glx>maybe your ISP filters UDP
11:44<+glx> <-- what happens if you manually add a server from this list?
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12:57<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r19761 /trunk/src/newgrf_engine.cpp: -Fix: [NewGRF] Vehicle var 43 missed AI information in purchase list.
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13:26<argkde4>i've a windows installation of 1.0.1, competitors are set to 0 yet there are two competitors. is this a bug or could it be a setup problem?
13:29<SmatZ>argkde4: "stop_ai 1" and "stop_ai 2" could help
13:29<SmatZ>competitors won't disappear when you lower their number after they started
13:30<argkde4>SmatZ: the number of competitors was set to 0 before the game was started
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13:31<frosch123>did you modifiy the difficulty settings afterwards?
13:31<frosch123>i.e. setting a certain difficulty setting also sets a specific number of ais, overwriting previous settings in the ai configuration
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13:33<argkde4>SmatZ: i get "WARNING: Company is not controlled by an AI."
13:34<argkde4>oh, for 1. for 2 it told me it deleted it
13:34<argkde4>SmatZ: ok, so there was no 1, but 2 and 3 were present
13:34<frosch123>likey 1 is your company :)
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13:36<argkde4>frosch123: the number of AIs were frobbed after they were noticed, but nothing had been touched in the difficulty window until then
13:36<Alberth>you started by loading a game?
13:36<argkde4>Alberth: no, it was a new game
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19762 /trunk/src/lang/ (11 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: catalan - 3 changes by arnau
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: finnish - 3 changes by jpx_
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: french - 3 changes by glx
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: german - 3 changes by planetmaker
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: greek - 16 changes by fumantsu
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14:33<andythenorth>hi hi
14:42*andythenorth decides to measure the distance to work in meters
14:42<andythenorth>because that's the official UK system
14:44<fjb>It is the only useful system.
14:49<Sacro>andythenorth: yards kthx
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14:51*andythenorth has solved the hovercraft problem
14:51<andythenorth>which I'm sure is headline news for all viewers of this channel :P
14:52<Prof_Frink>Can it be refitted to carry eels?
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14:53<andythenorth>Prof_Frink: yes it can
14:53<andythenorth>have you defined eels?
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15:00<andythenorth>eels, salamanders, lignite ore, photons, small figurines. The Porcupine hovercraft can carry them all.
15:00<andythenorth>Except for passengers. Can't carry passengers.
15:02<argkde4>what does it mean when the couplings between cars in the All Trains list flash red?
15:02<Sacro>andythenorth: even porcupines?
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15:04<andythenorth>even porcupines.
15:04<andythenorth>porcupines != passengers
15:04<andythenorth>therefore they are allowed.
15:04<andythenorth>no passengers though
15:06<Sacro>what about a passenger disguised as a procupine
15:06<Prof_Frink>What about a porcupine disguised as a passenger?
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15:16<argkde4>is there a way to debug a "train has invalid length" error?
15:16<SmatZ>argkde4: download missing grfs
15:17<argkde4>SmatZ: how do i tell if they're missing?
15:17<andythenorth>Prof_Frink, Sacro I have no good answer to those questions :P Invent whatever answer makes you happy
15:17<Sacro>argkde4: by proving the opposite
15:17<Sacro>or well, disproving
15:18<argkde4>well, all the listed grfs are green, if thats proof
15:18<SmatZ>argkde4: for example, check console output
15:18<SmatZ>or open newgrf list and find "red dots" :-p
15:18<argkde4>no red dots
15:18<SmatZ>or open in-game console, and type "gamelog"
15:18<SmatZ>if there is any "Removed NewGRF" item, try to download it
15:18<SmatZ>but it's possible it is too late for that
15:19<frosch123>it can also be just the newgrf's fault. which newgrf causes it?
15:20<argkde4>is there a way to get stuff from the console into the clipboard?
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15:21<andythenorth>what is the prevailing wind direction in OpenTTD?
15:22<SmatZ>andythenorth: the same as in TTD
15:22<argkde4>it says it removed 44440302 north american renewal set 2.03/nars2w.grf and moved 4444f000 (oldwagons-newcargos.grf) up 5 places
15:22<SmatZ>"it" doesn't move anything 5 places up
15:22<SmatZ>someone has to do that
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15:23<SmatZ>if someone removed a newgrf, it's likely trains from that GRF will be broken
15:23<andythenorth>what is the prevailing wind direction in TTD?
15:23<SmatZ>also, there's a warning for that
15:23<argkde4>it says changed, past tense
15:23*andythenorth thinks "probably same as OpenTTD" :|
15:24<frosch123>andythenorth: compare trains smoke, with airport's wind sleeve, with oilrig flame, ...
15:24<andythenorth>no prevailing wind direction :P
15:24<frosch123>oh, and bubblegenbubbles
15:25*andythenorth has various evil-ish ideas regarding vehicle speed
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15:25<frosch123>andythenorth: windless, and freezing cold
15:25<frosch123>the wind sleeve is frozen
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15:26<andythenorth>I don't suppose any of you will commit a string change to trunk for me: "Max speed" or "Design speed" :P
15:26<andythenorth>in resp. of me having some dumb ideas about fooling with speeds
15:26<andythenorth>"Intended service speed"
15:26<andythenorth>"Rated speed"
15:26<argkde4>SmatZ: i don't get what you're saying about "someone" having to do this. these are the messages i get when i load the game
15:26<frosch123>andythenorth: you can add extra rows to the purchase list
15:27<frosch123>aren't you doing that already?
15:27<andythenorth>but apparently it's unsatisfactory when I start fooling with speeds
15:27<SmatZ>argkde4: can you post me the savegame somehow?
15:28<andythenorth>I was thinking about something evil for hovercraft speed, which led me to thinking about something good for sailing ship speeds
15:31<argkde4>SmatZ: the origin of this file is a bit odd.. it came from a windows machine running 1.0.1, but i only have 1.0.0 here on debian. so i have the original game and one i saved with 1.0.0. both of them complain on load, though, in both .0 and .1
15:31<argkde4>SmatZ: so which one do you want?
15:32<SmatZ>argkde4: the more recent
15:32<argkde4>SmatZ: heh... by date or version?
15:32<SmatZ>by date
15:32<frosch123>give him both :p
15:32<SmatZ>hehe :)
15:35<argkde4>(thats not actually my save, i'm just a consultant here :)
15:36<SmatZ>argkde4: apparently, someone DID MANUALLY remove nars2w.grf
15:36<SmatZ>he received a warning that this may cause game problems/crashes
15:36<SmatZ>and ignored the warning
15:36<SmatZ>that's all
15:37<argkde4>so without nars2w the train is too long?
15:37*Sacro hides
15:39<argkde4>SmatZ: ok.. is that game pooched now, or will it be ok with train 3 removed?
15:41<frosch123>if you get train 3 (and all others affected) into a depot before the game crashes, you might have luck to continue afterwards
15:42<argkde4>does it list all affected trains with their own popups, or just the first one?
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15:42<argkde4>and once it arrives at the depot, do what with it?
15:44*andythenorth finds a very exciting thread about logging trucks + railroads
15:44<frosch123>maybe readd nars2 then
15:45<frosch123>but that depends whether you have "support for multiple engines sets" enabled
15:45*SmatZ is back
15:45<frosch123>but first get all trains into a depot
15:46*andythenorth contemplates an industry newgrf just for logging
15:46<SmatZ>"multiple engines setts" is disabled
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15:47<frosch123>is there another engine grf loaded?
15:47<SmatZ>about 5
15:47<SmatZ>and it works :)
15:48<frosch123>well, then, argkde4, get al trains into a depot, make them stop there. and then continue playing
15:48<SmatZ>probably only Train3 needs sending to depot
15:49*andythenorth ponders
15:49<argkde4>ok, so he's made it to 1981 without sending train 3 to the depot.. all the rest of the trains have been converted to electric
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15:50<argkde4>and i take it that it shouldn't have been able to have all those grfs loaded without "support for multiple engines sets" enabled?
15:51<andythenorth>tree-length logs, scrap wood, lumber, pulp, paper, gravel, machinery, water, food, fuel, workers, chemicals, creosote
15:51<SmatZ>mixing engine sets without having "support multiple engine sets" enabled can result in strange errors
15:52<andythenorth>any other logging cargos?
15:52<frosch123>the engines overwrite each other, the last one wins
15:53<Alberth>andythenorth: 'workers' usually need a nice comortable passenger wagon, I don't see how that classifies as logging cargo :)
15:53<frosch123>so one set might define a engine with a tender, and some other grf overwrites the tender with a maglev, or the engine with a wagon, or what soever
15:53<Alberth>spare engine parts
15:53<Alberth>repair crews
15:53<Alberth>wood re-planters
15:54<andythenorth>equipment thieves
15:54<argkde4>mounties! :)
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15:54<Alberth>fire men
15:54<Alberth>heli copters for lifiting wood out of the forest
15:55<argkde4>and forest fires to go with them?
15:55<andythenorth>heli logging :)
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15:55<Alberth>double cargo! forest->water a tree, water->forest water for fire extinguishing
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15:56<andythenorth>ah it would be a nice chain :)
15:56*andythenorth adds it to the list of things that might happen 'one day'
15:59<argkde4>SmatZ: frosch123: thanks for the help, he's decided to continue playing that game in spite of the potential for crashing
16:00<andythenorth>Steel mill industry chain!
16:01<andythenorth>Coal, coke, iron ore, scrap metal, slag, equipment, steel
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16:02<frosch123>yeah, add a train transporting liquid steel from the steelmill to the roller plant. if it breaks down or drives too long, wagon capacity reduces to zero :p
16:04<Alberth>and it becomes scrap steel :)
16:05<andythenorth>I can probably measure days in transit
16:05<andythenorth>but I dunno if I can reset a wagon's cargo :P
16:05<andythenorth>or change the capacity without visiting a depot
16:06<frosch123>you also have no persistant storage in a wagon, everything is reset in depot
16:06<andythenorth>I keep forgetting that :P
16:06<andythenorth>I'm in a world of industry code
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16:15*andythenorth thinks of an unusual vehicle: hot metal 'torpedo' car hauled by front loader
16:16<SmatZ>andythenorth: the link doesn't work
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16:17<SmatZ>unknown host
16:17<andythenorth>hmm they have dns trouble sometimes
16:18<Terkhen>it is... very unusual
16:18<frosch123>link works for me
16:18*andythenorth wonders where ship movement code is
16:19<@Rubidium>andythenorth: aren't those (primarily) used for transporting molten steel between locations in the same plant?
16:19<frosch123>hmm, liquid steel in ship?
16:19<@Rubidium>i.e. it's pointless to transport them over "openttd" rail
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16:19<+glx>it's not realistic ;)
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16:20<andythenorth>Rubidium: if 'blast furnace' was one industry and 'rolling mill' was another then there would be a point....
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>glx: actually, it's "too" realistic. it doesn't fit within the game concept
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16:21<Nite_Owl>Hello all
16:21<Terkhen>that's a lot of micromanaging
16:21<Terkhen>hi Nite_Owl
16:21<andythenorth>it fits in a 'steel industry' newgrf :P
16:21<Nite_Owl>Hello Terkhen
16:21<andythenorth>I'm not proposing to code that though. I'm just fooling around.
16:22<andythenorth>meanwhile, what makes a tile TRANSPORT_WATER
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16:22<@Rubidium>andythenorth: nothing makes a tile TRANSPORT_WATER
16:23<@Rubidium>you can only have transport of TRANSPORT_WATER on a tile and even TRANSPORT_RAIL and TRANSPORT_WATER on the same tile
16:23<@Rubidium>(not talking about aqueducts here)
16:24<frosch123>but there are only 4 of those tiles
16:24*andythenorth wants to fool around and is looking for a way to make all tiles TRANSPORT_WATER....
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16:25<Terkhen>use a huge TILE_LOOP
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16:27<@Rubidium>and always return a non TRACKBIT_NONE track status when TRANSPORT_WATER is requested
16:27<frosch123>[22:19] <Rubidium> andythenorth: aren't those (primarily) used for transporting molten steel between locations in the same plant? <- actually ~20 km distance are normal
16:27<@Rubidium>frosch123: so less than 1/30th of a tile
16:28<andythenorth>every time I try and hack the game I run smack bang into my lack of proper programming understanding :P
16:28<@peter1138>or 400 tiles, depending on which scale you're using :)
16:28<andythenorth>I can read the syntax fine, but my brain doesn't do the logic properly
16:28<@Rubidium>andythenorth: only problem you'll get into is that... well the ship pathfinder will go crazy
16:29<andythenorth>among other things...I wondered how it would cope with slopes
16:29<frosch123>andythenorth: and you should make sure you to not make the map border traversable, or ships will fall of the plate
16:29<andythenorth>ha ha
16:29<andythenorth>this was a hovercraft-related project :)
16:30<frosch123>[22:29] <andythenorth> among other things...I wondered how it would cope with slopes <- just as the lock does
16:30<andythenorth>but also, these are fun
16:30<argkde4>the edges don't wrap around? thats no fun
16:30<@peter1138>hmm, circular map
16:30<@Rubidium>andythenorth: those stink enormously
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16:30*andythenorth wonders if it's easier to make all tiles TRANSPORT_WATER or to make ship pathfinder ignore tile type
16:31<frosch123>the former
16:33<frosch123>GetTileTrackStatus <- try adding a "if (mode == TRANSPORT_WATER) return CombineTrackStatus(TRACKDIR_BIT_MASK, TRACKDIR_BIT_NONE);"
16:34<frosch123>unless the pathfinder check for explicit tiletypes (they usually do for penalties, but maybe not for ships), that might be enough
16:35*andythenorth tries it
16:38<frosch123>so, if trains crash road vehicles at level crossing without noticing, can then overcraft crash trains without noticing?
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16:39<andythenorth>large hovercraft will cross obstacles several meters high...
16:39<frosch123>try ttrs buildings then
16:39<andythenorth>or several feet, for those in the uk :P
16:39*andythenorth blows up the game :P
16:40<Nite_Owl>boom ??
16:40<frosch123>why do they measure height in feet? isn't a foot more long than high?
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16:41<frosch123>andythenorth: maybe add an " && IsValidTile(tile)" to the if
16:41<@peter1138>just say "Yes" to the pathfinder
16:41<@peter1138>let all vehicles travel on any tile :D
16:42<andythenorth>partial win, partial fail :)
16:43<andythenorth>the error says I should send information to the developers. who would that be in this case :P
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16:44<Jolteon>there we go
16:44<andythenorth>Jolteon: you coded hovercraft on land?
16:44<Jolteon>got OpenTTD working!
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16:47<andythenorth>frosch123: I tried && IsValidTile(tile), still blows up :)
16:47<frosch123>then compile without assertions
16:48<Terkhen>I just tried too: segfault
16:48<frosch123>oh, segfault :o i expected some assert due to wrong tiletype
16:49<andythenorth>well it makes a change from crashes due to fooling with a string code in nfo
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16:53<frosch123>VehicleEnterTile <- hmm, so it also needs some work there
16:55<frosch123> if (_tile_type_procs[GetTileType(tile)]->vehicle_enter_tile_proc == NULL) return VETSB_CONTINUE; <- andythenorth: add that line to VehicleEnterTile
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16:57<frosch123>hmm, ships have quite a hard time to enter the depot with that patch though :p
16:57<andythenorth>in vehicle.cpp?
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: it doesn't hover 3m above ground :p
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>(re: hovercraft and train)
16:59<frosch123>oh, it still crashes, but it took some time to
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17:02<andythenorth>frosch123: I find that amusing
17:03<andythenorth>resp. hovercraft on land (not the crash)
17:03<frosch123>i used a regular cargo ship, no hovercraft was available
17:05<Terkhen> <--- ships without orders like the north
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17:16<andythenorth>Terkhen: :)
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18:43<Terkhen>good night
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---Logclosed Thu May 06 00:00:28 2010