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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-05-06

---Logopened Thu May 06 00:00:28 2010
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01:54<dihedral>morning
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02:02<KingRobot>planetmaker: I posted a final version of the mouse fix this evening.
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02:40<planetmaker>KingRobot: I tested it
02:40<KingRobot>Is it good?
02:40<planetmaker>I find it strange. I _can_ reproduce the imprinted mouse bug (when switching to full screen in 8bpp-optimized blitter) with _every_ of those three fixes you posted
02:41<planetmaker>Meaning: I have to revoke my statement from yesterday that the 2nd version fixes it :-(
02:41<planetmaker>That leaves me wondering...
02:41<KingRobot>Er, what happened yesterday, then?
02:41<planetmaker>KingRobot: _that_ I wonder about.
02:42<planetmaker>There must be something else in play which did *something* to make sure that kCGErrorFailure didn't occur...
02:42<planetmaker>And I have no frigging idea as of what :-(
02:42<KingRobot>Hrm.
02:42<planetmaker>exactly
02:43<KingRobot>The 2nd fix doesn't use that error check
02:43<KingRobot>So that's not the issue.
02:43<planetmaker>I just played through every patch, yeah :S
02:44<KingRobot>are you familiar with libgmalloc?
02:44<planetmaker>I'm afraid not
02:44<planetmaker>what's the issue with it?
02:44<KingRobot>None; it's an OS X debugging tool
02:44<KingRobot>It checks for memory overwrites... sort of a valgrind lite
02:44<planetmaker>ah
02:45<KingRobot>It's only good for 10.6
02:45<KingRobot>All you have to do to use it is
02:45<KingRobot>set DYLD_INSERT_LIBRARIES to /usr/lib/libgmalloc.dylib
02:45<KingRobot>then run the program
02:46<KingRobot>It will yield a EXC_BAD_ACCESS at the location in the code that caused it.
02:47<KingRobot>You might try that.
02:47<KingRobot>The trouble is that the cursor is in the framebuffer
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02:48<KingRobot>So, if the cursor is enabled and you're blitting pixels direct to the framebuffer, you don't stand a chance.
02:49<KingRobot>The cursor may or may not win since you're both writing to the same bit of memory.
02:49<planetmaker>let's see...
02:51<planetmaker>hehe... sluggish behaviour ;-)
02:53<planetmaker>works as before
02:54<KingRobot>Hmm, it's not an overflow then
02:54<KingRobot>Interesting
02:56<KingRobot>Does the cursor ever have any reason to be visible in full-screen mode?
02:56<KingRobot>I was a bit confused by fullscreen.mm:350
02:57<planetmaker>Well, one wants a cursor also in full-screen mode, not?
02:57<planetmaker>Though not during switching, I guess
02:58<planetmaker>Maybe it might be a good idea to undraw it, then switch modes, then draw it again?
02:58<KingRobot>By the time it has reached that line, it's already faded in
02:58<KingRobot>So why would we ever need to see the OS cursor after that point?
02:59<planetmaker>I don't know wether it's the OS cursor. Maybe as it fits the colour. But the shape is... ragged and tattered.
02:59<KingRobot>Hrm
02:59<KingRobot>Well, I have two more ideas that can be tried.
03:00<KingRobot>A: Set the cursor to a custom all alpha cursor whenever it should be hidden.
03:01<KingRobot>B: Shove the cursor to the bottom right corner of the screen using CGDisplayMoveCursorToPoint
03:02<KingRobot>A may or may not work, depending on the issue you're describing
03:02<KingRobot>B would leave a single pixel in the corner having the problem
03:02<planetmaker>hehe
03:03<planetmaker>it's somehow still connecte to the colour space...
03:03<KingRobot>Hrm
03:03<KingRobot>What API are you building against?
03:03<planetmaker>CGSColorProfileCreateWithColorSpace: Invalid ICC color space(0x18821dfe0)
03:03<planetmaker>10.6
03:04<KingRobot>Ah, you see that in the console?
03:04<planetmaker>what I posted is output in the console
03:04<planetmaker>like what I posted in FS yesterday. yes
03:05<KingRobot>Are you building 64-bits against 10.6?
03:05<planetmaker>http://paste.openttd.org/225744 <-- the whole debug sessions with several switches between full screen and windowed mode
03:05<planetmaker>yes, it's a x64 build
03:05<planetmaker>IIRC
03:06<KingRobot>Ah, I wonder if that is the issue.
03:06<KingRobot>I'm building 32-bits against the 10.4 and 10.5 SDKs, and I have not been able to replicat the issue when running that binary on 10.6.3
03:06<@Rubidium>planetmaker: does it happen with the x86 build? Is it fixed with KingRobot's patches on the x86 build?
03:07<planetmaker>I need to test. Can any of you two quickly give me the configure command for that end?
03:07<@Rubidium>because if so, isn't the "better" fix to just not make x64 binaries anymore?
03:07<planetmaker>hm, not sure
03:07<planetmaker>that can result in serious library issues
03:08<planetmaker>if they are not compiled universally by e.g. macports by default
03:08<planetmaker>one has to ask for the specifically
03:08<planetmaker>I did, though. Except libtimidity which macports has not
03:08<KingRobot>planetmaker: my configure looks like this:
03:08<KingRobot>./configure --cc-build="gcc-4.0" --cc-host="gcc-4.0" --cxx-build="g++-4.0" --cxx-host="g++-4.0" --with-cocoa --enable-universal
03:09<planetmaker>is --with-cocoa needed? And the gcc selection? Should be default
03:10<KingRobot>planetmaker & Rubidium - there is currently no (compatibility) reason to build x86_64 for 10.6 unless you are writing screensavers.
03:11<planetmaker>hmpf... configure already tells me that I'll compile two ppc versions which will fail to link...
03:11<planetmaker>I don't have ppc libraries currently
03:11<planetmaker>can I skip those building steps
03:11<planetmaker>?
03:12<@Rubidium>heh, I'm just proposing the OS X solutions applied lately... instead of finding a way to determine when it is or isn't buggy "you" declare it always buggy
03:13<@Rubidium>planetmaker: 3 ppc binaries :)
03:13<planetmaker>KingRobot: http://paste.openttd.org/225745 <- my default configure
03:13<planetmaker>Rubidium: no, not fat please ;-)
03:15<planetmaker>WARNING: Could not find a usable 10.4u SDK, the resulting <- hm...
03:15<planetmaker>ls /Developer/SDKs/
03:16<planetmaker>MacOSX10.3.9.sdk MacOSX10.5.sdk
03:16<planetmaker>MacOSX10.4u.sdk MacOSX10.6.sdk
03:16<KingRobot>Using which configure string?
03:16<planetmaker>--enable-universal --without-libtimidity
03:17<KingRobot>Did you specify the gcc-4.0 compiler?
03:17<planetmaker>ah, nvm.
03:17<planetmaker>^
03:17<KingRobot>10.4u SDK will not build with the 4.2 compiler
03:17<planetmaker>yes, I know :-)
03:17<KingRobot>Okay :)
03:18<KingRobot>How are you setting 8bpp? Maybe I'm not doing it right.
03:18<planetmaker>blitter = 8bpp-optimized in the openttd.cfg
03:18<planetmaker>or what do you mean?
03:18<KingRobot>yes, that :)
03:19<planetmaker>of course we could just say that it's a deprecated setting - it's not the default anymore anyway...
03:21<dihedral>http://pub.dihedral.de/openttd/coopVSnoai/ <- hehe
03:21<dihedral>remember that planetmaker ?
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03:21<planetmaker>oh yes. Great fun!
03:22<planetmaker>~/ottd/trunk> ./configure CFLAGS="-arch i386" --without-libtimidity <-- I'll try that for i386 binary
03:22<KingRobot>Ah, should work.
03:22<KingRobot>Care to just try my binary?
03:23<planetmaker>link?
03:23<KingRobot>just a sec
03:23<KingRobot>http://openttd.eisbox.net/files/bundle.tmp.zip - current trunk with the final patch
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03:24<planetmaker>is there a quick way to inspect the arch a binary was build for?
03:24<KingRobot>yes
03:24<KingRobot>lipo -info /path/to/binary
03:25<planetmaker>thanks
03:26<planetmaker>src/newgrf_debug_gui.cpp:105: warning: ‘class NIHelper’ has virtual functions but non-virtual destructor <-- that was a gcc40 bug, right?
03:27<KingRobot>Not sure... I get that too, but it's just a warning.
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03:27<planetmaker>I recall that gcc issues *some* bogus warning. But not which
03:28<planetmaker>src/smallmap_gui.cpp:642: warning: ‘tile$y’ may be used uninitialized in this function <-- I think it was this, though
03:30<planetmaker>eeek...
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03:31<planetmaker>I just started my version as configured as pasted above
03:31<planetmaker>no real change
03:32<planetmaker>one odditiy (which I *think* I saw the last time with the x64 version, too, but now I paid close attention): the mouse cursor was fine when switching to full screen the FIRST time
03:32<planetmaker>but it got an ugly permanent mark every subsequent time when switching to full screen
03:33<planetmaker>hilarity...
03:33<planetmaker>KingRobot: your version has the mouse cursor issue, too
03:33<KingRobot>Interesting
03:34<KingRobot>10.6.3?
03:34<KingRobot>Which mac & video card?
03:34<planetmaker>macbook with on-board video by intel
03:35<planetmaker>Graphics: Intel GMA 950, GMA 950, Built-In, spdisplays_integrated_vram
03:36<KingRobot>I have a Macbook Pro with nVidia, and am no longer to replicate the issue since the patch
03:36<KingRobot>Is yours the black or the white macbook
03:36<planetmaker>Model: MacBook2,1, BootROM MB21.00A5.B07, 2 processors, Intel Core 2 Duo, 2 GHz, 2 GB, SMC 1.13f3
03:37<KingRobot>My wife has a nearly identical model running 10.6.3. Perhaps I can replicate it there.
03:37<planetmaker>When I played around with this the first time (when the http://bugs.openttd.org/task/3198 was new) I tested the patch, too
03:37<planetmaker>It somewhat depended on *something* else
03:38<planetmaker>Whether some mode was set or switched by another programme or not
03:38<planetmaker>when done beore, it worked
03:38<planetmaker>when not done, the error showed.
03:38<planetmaker>But that's just a gut feeling which I couldn't point my finger at.
03:38<KingRobot>It's a fair guess, at any point
03:38<planetmaker>And at that time I failed to get the error again. So... fine
03:39<planetmaker>obviously it wasn't quite as fine, though
03:39<planetmaker>well, not that message what I got, but these terminal / console messages
03:40<KingRobot>do you know how to set a breakpoint on a symbol in gdb?
03:40<planetmaker>I'm afraid not
03:41<planetmaker>but it's not something which cannot be found out
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03:41<KingRobot>I'd like to find out where CGSColorProfileCreateWithColorSpace is being called from.
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03:45<KingRobot>Hm
03:45<KingRobot>Seems to be a rabbit trail
03:46<KingRobot>CGSColorProfileCreateWithColorSpace is being called, not when starting into full-screen mode, but when exiting from full-screen mode and creating the quartz window.
03:49<planetmaker>hmpf
03:55<Terkhen>good morning
03:56<KingRobot>Or, as has been mentioned, we could simply disallow 8-bit color under 10.6
03:56<KingRobot>It's not like any machine running 10.6 won't have the horsepower to handle 32 bits
03:58<dihedral>grr - awstats aint doing what i want it to do ....
03:59<dihedral>have multiple logs in one log file (using vhost_alias)
03:59<KingRobot>It's like as not that direct blitting to the display will be gone altogether with the next version of the OS.
03:59<dihedral>i.e. *.example.org goes to one log file
03:59<dihedral>how can i not tell awstats to use that vhost name when linking in the stats?
03:59<KingRobot>dihedral: sadly I only know webalizer :)
03:59<dihedral>hmmmpf
04:00<dihedral>i used to do that with webalizer
04:00<dihedral>i mangled the log files before processing ^^
04:03<planetmaker>mon Terkhen
04:03<planetmaker>KingRobot: the reverse? ;-)
04:03<planetmaker>a 32 or 64 bit machine cannot handle 8 bits. Too tiny to care correctly about :-P
04:03<KingRobot>Ha :)
04:04<KingRobot>What about a new video driver using glDrawPixels?
04:04<planetmaker>if that makes it future-proof: go for it :-)
04:04<planetmaker>I don't know what 10.7 will bring us in that respect.
04:05<KingRobot>Future-proofed software for OS X is an oxymoron :)
04:05<KingRobot>But for now, glDrawPixels is not listed as deprecated, so it should at least work for 10.7
04:07<KingRobot>The only drawback is that I've read it is slow, but perhaps if we are sending in 8-bit indexed data it might work.
04:09<KingRobot>The other option is quad tiling
04:09<planetmaker>for sure make it another configure option :-)
04:10<planetmaker>then we can have tripple fun on a mac: cocoa-traditional, sdl, and cocoal-modern ;-)
04:10<KingRobot>lol
04:11<KingRobot>The SDL version is borked as far as I know
04:11<KingRobot>And I know nothing about SDL, so I'm not likely to fix it
04:11<planetmaker>quite so
04:12<planetmaker>I tested it once just because - and it was "interesting"
04:12<planetmaker>well, FS has the result ;-)
04:15<KingRobot>Are you familiar with dirty_rects?
04:19<planetmaker>I think I have an idea of the concept
04:19<planetmaker>but not more
04:19<planetmaker>except if it is a function with that particular name.
04:19<planetmaker>I haven't really dealt with GUI code
04:22<KingRobot>a function really? it looks like a structure
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04:33<planetmaker>ok, I have no idea... hm... there he goes
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05:07<dihedral>Rubidium_ / TrueBrain: which one of you setup your awstats?
05:07<dihedral>i am assuming it was TrueBrain ?
05:07<dihedral>do you use separate stats for each subdomain, or do you have them somhow combined?
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05:28<planetmaker>no rubi here
05:29<Eddi|zuHause>yes there is
05:29<planetmaker>ah... there is ;-)
05:30<TrueBrain>I just have one general advise: never use awstats
05:31<dihedral>why is that TrueBrain
05:31<TrueBrain>because it *sucks*
05:32<dihedral>can you be more specific?
05:32<TrueBrain>not really
05:32<TrueBrain>just my experience
05:32<TrueBrain>webalizer does what it should do, and at an amazing speed :)
05:32<dihedral>TrueBrain: something really puzles me
05:32<dihedral>there was a time where you said webalizer sucks, and awstats is way better,
05:33<dihedral>now you are back to square one
05:33<TrueBrain>opinions change. I hope I am allowed to?
05:33<dihedral>there seems to be moments where you to that with every peice of (something) you do
05:33<dihedral>and you always do it very vaguely
05:33<TrueBrain>as every sane human being should be doing
05:33<dihedral>i.e. - that sucks, that's better
05:33<dihedral>^^
05:34<TrueBrain>there is a reason I don't go into details; mostly because it is my opinion, and every other person should find it out for his self what he likes/dislikes
05:34<TrueBrain>when I go into detail, I have concrete reasons for nobody to ever use it
05:34<TrueBrain>compare it to food
05:34<TrueBrain>you have likes and dislikes
05:34<dihedral>^^
05:34<TrueBrain>they change over time (at least, I hope so)
05:35<dihedral>i would really love to know why you think awstats sucks ;-)
05:35<TrueBrain>so you say: this I don't eat, it is shit
05:35<TrueBrain>while others LOVE to eat it
05:35<dihedral>just so that hopefully i do not need to go through the same process ^^
05:41<Eddi|zuHause>i hate "raw" cheese
05:41<Eddi|zuHause>but i love cheese on pizza
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06:18<blathijs>TrueBrain: Now there's crappy timing for expression opinions: I've just set up awstats for a bunch of domains this week :-)
06:18<TrueBrain>dihedral: well, enjoy it :p
06:18<TrueBrain>awstats was nice, till a certain limit
06:21<blathijs>So, performance is the main problem with awstats?
06:21<blathijs>Looking at the sample report from webalizer, it doesn't seem to add much (actuallly show less, I think..)
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06:23<blathijs>And actually, the points raised under "Criticism" at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webalizer seem valid downsides to me...
06:26<TrueBrain>blathijs: performance, but also sane things like: configuration, and installation. And: do-not-break-on-every-update
06:26<TrueBrain>stuff like that :p
06:26<TrueBrain>and webalizer is far from perfect, but at least it just works :)
06:27<TrueBrain>modlogan was much better on all terms
06:27<TrueBrain>but it died ..
06:27<TrueBrain>I am still waiting for some sane person to make a stats app which also parses subdomains and shit correctly
06:27<blathijs>So, from the looks of it, I guess I'm more happy with awstats now. Though I'm kinda wondering why I didn't even look at webalizer last week, I thought that awstats was the only sane and maintained log analyzer left
06:27<TrueBrain>webalizer is the oldest and most used
06:28<blathijs>Yeah, modlogan was awesome, I think I've even done some hacking for it a while back
06:28<TrueBrain>awstats is the 'newer' brother, but becomes more and more bloatware :(
06:29<blathijs>One of the things I miss in all of those, though, is freely zooming around the dataset. e.g., seeing the google terms for a specific day instead of only per month, or between two dates, etc.
06:29<blathijs>But I guess that takes way more storage space and processing time to dynamically generate those reports
06:30<blathijs>And I'm not even sure I'd really use that if it were possible, it just sounds useful :-p
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06:56<planetmaker>{BLACK}Increase servicing interval with 10. Ctrl+Click increases servicing interval with 5 <-- sounds wrong to me
06:56<planetmaker>wouldn't it have to say "...increase ...by 10..." ?
06:57<planetmaker>and by 5 respectively?
07:03<dihedral>TrueBrain: what you mention above all is helpful ;-)
07:03<TrueBrain>it is?
07:03<dihedral>i.e. performance, bloatware, breaking upon upgrade ....
07:03<dihedral>just the things i wanted to hear from you
07:03<TrueBrain>planetmaker: I smells like a dutch person wrote that :p
07:04<dihedral>does webalizer decently process multiple vhost_alias entries in a single log file?
07:04<dihedral>or how do you go about that?
07:04<dihedral>i.e. if *.example.org was all logged to one file
07:04<TrueBrain>dihedral: it is just the same old cynical me, so you could have filled that in yourself :p
07:04<dihedral>lol ^^
07:05<TrueBrain>dihedral: no stat system really likes subdomains
07:05<dihedral>shit ^^
07:05<planetmaker>TrueBrain, given the average nationality of an OpenTTD dev, the chances are not that bad :-P
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07:05<dihedral>i used to pre-process my logs, moving the vhost-name into the request uri
07:05<dihedral>before webalizer would process the logs
07:06<dihedral>that used to work kind of ^^
07:06<TrueBrain>planetmaker: darn, you are on to me :)
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08:11<Adambean>hm. is it safe to disconnect the front panel audio header (ac97 based) from a sound card while the system is running? discovered the cba to shut
08:12<Adambean>L/R is the wrong way, needs flipping
08:12<Adambean>cba to shut down
08:12<planetmaker>then try it out
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08:25<+glx>Adambean: disconnecting front panel will probably shutdown rear panel
08:25<Adambean>nah it hasnt still working
08:25<Adambean>pics or it didnt happen? ;)
08:25<Adambean>www.reece-eu.net/tmp/ac97-frontpanel-hotswapped.jpg
08:26<+glx>because the you need jumpers to have sound in rear without front
08:26<Adambean>nahh
08:26<Adambean>not on this card you dont
08:26<+glx>but except that there's no real risk
08:26<Adambean>now to swap pin 6 and 10
08:27<+glx>it's AC97 standard, rear is disabled when you plug a jack in front
08:27<+glx>so if you remove front, it's the same
08:28<Adambean>this card does intel hd out or ac97
08:28<Adambean>so i guess it doesnt care
08:28<Adambean>you also have to select front panel out in the driver
08:28<Adambean>treats them independantly
08:31<+glx>http://www.intel.com/support/motherboards/desktop/sb/cs-015851.htm <-- ha right there are 2 types
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08:32<Adambean>swapped. now to reconnect it
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09:05<@Belugas>hi thre
09:05<@Belugas>there
09:05<yorick>hi
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13:24<Limb>Hey quick question, how do I get cargo from a road depot to a train station?
13:24<Sacro>my plane
13:24<Sacro>*by
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>Limb: they must be the same station
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>Limb: try building the second station with ctrl
13:27<Limb>Ah that did it
13:27<Limb>thanks :)
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13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19763 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: dutch - 3 changes by habell
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: irish - 3 changes by tem
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: italian - 3 changes by lorenzodv
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 3 changes by mantaray
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 3 changes by mantaray
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14:23<andythenorth>hi hi
14:25<fjb>Moin andythenorth
14:32<Sacro>'irish' isn't a language
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14:35<planetmaker>g'day andythenorth
14:36<planetmaker>Sacro, but it's a translation.
14:37<@peter1138>this is where sacro is wrong
14:37<Sacro>hmm
14:37<Sacro>shouldn't it be 'gaelic' ?
14:37<@peter1138>no
14:37<planetmaker>^
14:37<Sacro>or is it just english with a lot more swearing
14:38<@peter1138>that's scottish
14:38<Xaroth>Gaeilge
14:38<Sacro>hmmm
14:40<Xaroth>people sometimes call it Irish Gaelic tho
14:40<__ln__>people and sacros
14:41<Xaroth>but Gaelic is the proper term for scottish
14:41<Xaroth>so to make it more complex they call it Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic
14:41<@peter1138>yeah
14:41<@peter1138>so
14:41<@peter1138>it's Irish, in english
14:41<@peter1138>and Gaeilge in Irish
14:41<@peter1138>##name Irish
14:41<@peter1138>##ownname Gaeilge
14:41<@peter1138>##isocode ga_IE
14:42<@peter1138>see!
14:42<Xaroth>there was another Gaelic but i forgot where that one got from
14:42<Xaroth>AH, Manx Gaelic
14:43<Sacro>i thought it was gaelic and scots?
14:44<Xaroth>no, Gaelic is just used for anything semi-english :p
14:45<Xaroth>but apparently, the Irish script is called Gaelic :P
14:45<Xaroth>damn them brits are confusing :/
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15:10<Nite_Owl>Hello all
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15:21<Wizzleby>Gaelic is hardly semi-english, though modern english retains some gaelic loanwords... but the linguistic rules of the three Goidelic celtic languages are rather far from english =P
15:22<Wizzleby>example: mhaol: pronounced 'mweel'
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15:46<andythenorth>frosch123: if we're going to have hovercraft travelling on land, I'll have to redraw the sprites for 'spray' (which uses the water cycle) :P
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15:46<frosch123>maybe replace it with the demolition animation
15:47<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/hovercraft_land.png
15:47<andythenorth>it clears the fence nicely....
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15:49<fjb>What happens in a town?
15:50<frosch123>you know the simcity ufo?
15:50*fjb never played Simcity.
15:51<andythenorth>fjb: hmmm hovercraft drives through houses
15:52*andythenorth envisages free-roaming vehicles.
15:52<andythenorth>however not free-roaming through buildings
15:53<andythenorth>except for bulldozers
15:53<andythenorth>which can go anywhere they choose
15:53<fjb>That will make the people unhappy.
15:54*andythenorth wonders why?
15:55<fjb>And buoys will look strange at land.
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15:55*fjb would definitely not like a hovercraft moving around his kitchen.
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15:59<andythenorth>fjb: you never know until you try it
15:59*Eddi|zuHause needs a hovercraft in 1:87 scale...
16:01*frosch123 needs a hovercraft in a about twice the size as the stupid quad which is driving every morning at 7:00 around my house, and does more noise than three harleys or so
16:03*Eddi|zuHause wonders whether a hovercraft is covered by the StVZO
16:04<frosch123>what does the Z mean?
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>Zulassung
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16:04<Eddi|zuHause>it defines which vehicles are allowed to go on public roads
16:09<__ln__>apropos, youtube claims that Christopher Lee has dubbed himself into German in some 80's movie.
16:09*andythenorth wonders if hovercraft would go straight over hills, or try and follow valleys
16:10<fjb>__ln__: It is true. He speaks German very well.
16:11<andythenorth>hmm
16:11<fjb>andythenorth: Depends on its power and the trees.
16:11<andythenorth>trees might be a problem indeed
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: yes, he speaks german
16:13<__ln__>fjb, Eddi: yeah, he does, i've seen an interview of him in german
16:14<__ln__>still, Arnold speaks german but doesn't dub himself. :)
16:14<Nite_Owl>my hovercraft is full of eels
16:14<fjb>His German sounds more like English now.
16:14<andythenorth>that must be pleasing
16:15<andythenorth>what supplies eels?
16:16<Nite_Owl>Monty Python
16:17<fjb>They also supplied spam.
16:17<Nite_Owl>and Vikings
16:17<andythenorth>what accepts eels?
16:17<__ln__>Nite_Owl: i asked a few days ago whether hovercraft can be refitted for eels, but i was told no. :(
16:17<Nite_Owl>the local eel house ??
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16:20<andythenorth>__ln__: it wasn't me who said no was it?
16:21<Nite_Owl>the original sketch should be on youtube
16:21<__ln__>andythenorth: i can't remember; maybe.
16:22<__ln__>and quite surprisingly, the original sketch is legally on youtube.
16:22<andythenorth>definitely can be refitted to eels
16:22<Combuster>I want my bug back :'(
16:25*andythenorth fails to either code something or read the book on lean software development :P
16:25<Nite_Owl>Python donated a lot of their shows to youtube
16:25<__ln__>youtube seems quite broken today, but here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akbflkF_1zY
16:29<Nite_Owl>still funny after all these years
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16:45*andythenorth thinks the UK government may contain eels soon
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16:54<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: there is currently no grf providing eels, so it can't be refitted to eels.
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16:58<andythenorth>is the UK government refittable to eels?
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>that i don't know
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>have you tried?
16:59<Nite_Owl>only the slimy kind ??
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17:01<frosch123>night
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17:07<Eddi|zuHause>these british people might make their first step into a modern democracy today
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17:15<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: That first step being?
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: the need for a coalition
17:16<OwenS>The exit polls say that the seats will be 307/255/59/19, (Con/Lab/LibDem/Other), which means no majority, which means coalition seems likely
17:17<OwenS>(It must be admitted UK exit polls are notoriously unreliable)
17:17<OwenS>As incumbents Labour get the chance to form government first - probably by trying to ally with the liberal democrats
17:17<SmatZ>650 total, isn't that too much?
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>germany has a similar number...
17:17<OwenS>SmatZ: 650 seats for members of the house of commons
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>but due to germany's obscure system, the number can vary depending on the results of the election...
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17:19<OwenS>Interestingly, both Labour and the Lib Dems have electoral reform high on their priorities
17:21<SmatZ>in most cases, and in (almost) all cases of important laws, all members of one party vote the same
17:21<SmatZ>so I wonder why are there so many members in the parliament...
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: one representant for each region
17:22<OwenS>Indeed
17:23<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: you have different system than we have then :) so does it mean, when one party has (little) majority in all regions, it will get 100% of seats in the parliament?
17:23<OwenS>It actually results in isdiosyncratic representations because regions have different populations
17:23<OwenS>SmatZ: That is the case. Thats the issue
17:23<SmatZ>interesting
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: in britain they have majority voting system, so that can happen, yes
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: in germany, they have a hybrid system
17:24<OwenS>Both Labour and LibDems want to switch to Single Transferable Vote
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>299 seats are given by majority vote, and an additional 299 seats are given by proportional vote
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>so you have 2*299+X members in the german Bundestag
17:25<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: Thats the system I've wanted :p
17:25<OwenS>Whats the X?
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>where X is a complicated number when a party gets more majority seats than their proportional vote allows
17:26<SmatZ>we have several regions, each region has X seats - and in each region is proportional vote
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17:27<OwenS>SmatZ: Thats basically what Single Transferable Vote is, with a slight modification so that regions still have a representative MP
17:29-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1DE3E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: example: say a party got 10 direct candidates elected, but by the proportional vote it is only entitled to 8 seats, then 2 additional seats get awarded to the party, resulting in X=2
17:30<OwenS>So awkward but smart
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>it gets more complicated than that, because X is calculated separately for each Land (of which 16 exist), then all are added together
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>that means party A can get "overhang mandates" from land 1, and party B can get some from land 2
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17:34<Eddi|zuHause>the most extreme case: a party gets all direct mandates, but does not take part in the proportional vote at all, then you have X=299, thus you get 3*299 members ;)
17:34<OwenS>O_o
17:35<OwenS>Apparently people have had to be turned away at polling stations because they were still queuing at the deadline
17:40<SmatZ>that's a pity when you leave the office at 18:00 and the polling station closes one hour later
17:40<SmatZ>especially when there are more people in that situation
17:41<OwenS>SmatZ: They close at 2200
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: they closed at 22:00 local time
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>in germany, elections must be on sundays
17:41<OwenS>And they opened up early in the morning
17:42<SmatZ>ok :)
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17:43<OwenS>Our first count is supposed to be coming back in about 7 minutes
17:43<OwenS>(That is, count from the first constituency)
17:43<SmatZ>that's what I heard in local news... that many people were leaving the office just a hour before the polling station closes
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17:43<OwenS>SmatZ: If they left work at 2100h (And thats a late shift). presumably they started late enough to vote on the morning
17:44<SmatZ>ok, news fail :)
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>"Wer in Stalingrad war, wird von Playstation 3 enttäuscht sein."
17:46<Terkhen>andythenorth: why is the production of all farms in FIRS so low? :/
17:46<andythenorth>Terkhen: in recent nightlies?
17:46<Terkhen>today's
17:47<andythenorth>I find it looks ridiculous to route *lots* of trucks to a farm, or large trains
17:47<andythenorth>I'm going to add location code to make farms cluster near each other though
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>the number of farms should then be increased
17:48<Terkhen>I agree, but I barely can route two trucks to a farm now
17:48<Terkhen>okay :)
17:48<andythenorth>deliver farm supplies :P
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17:49<Eddi|zuHause>maybe it's a barley farm ;)
17:49<andythenorth>Terkhen: it would be a handy piece of play testing if you could try and max production with FMSP
17:49<andythenorth>I think it should get to about 300t max, but testing takes time :)
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>(please tell me that joke was bad.)
17:49<Terkhen>hmmm... okay
17:51*andythenorth makes more industry layouts
17:51<andythenorth>lots to do before I can play a test game :|
17:53<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: That joke was bad.
17:54<andythenorth>barely a joke
17:55<Terkhen>I don't get it... probably because I don't know what is a barley
17:56<PeterT>Terkhen: Hey, remember how I was going to Spain and was stuck in Ireland because of the volcano?
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17:56<planetmaker>Terkhen: an alcoholic beverage
17:56<PeterT>well, the tour company gave me a free trip to Spain
17:56<PeterT>Iceland volcano <3
17:57<Terkhen>hmm.. I did not know you got stuck because of the volcano
17:57<Terkhen>that's nice of them, I have some friends that got no compensations
17:58<PeterT>well, it's not like they lose money or anything
17:58<PeterT>they just don't make as big of a profit off me
17:58<PeterT>it is a company called "EF Tours"
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18:01<Terkhen>never heard of them
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18:05<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: to my knowledge, "barley" = "Gerste"
18:05<andythenorth>had a forums pm from someone offering FIRS german translation
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>particularly well known as basic ingredience of beer
18:05<andythenorth>who was working on that?
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>i thought planetmaker once wanted to do that?
18:08<andythenorth>nighthawk ?? was doing it
18:08<planetmaker>yes, I did the existing but currently not used and out-dated translation
18:08<planetmaker>Sure enough I *could* do a new one, but I won't fight for it, if there's another translator :-)
18:09<PeterT>is there away to dump the console/log into a text file?
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>i once had a list of german cargo names, but i have no idea how to properly translate "supplies"
18:09-!-bryjen [~bryjen@63.147.94.149] has quit [Quit: Quit]
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: yes, start with "openttd 2>log.txt"
18:10<planetmaker>^
18:10<Terkhen>andythenorth: I think it was nighthawk, yes
18:10<planetmaker>iirc yes
18:10<andythenorth>well now lots of us have that information :)
18:10<andythenorth>so we're all to blame if I forget
18:11<planetmaker>:-D
18:11<planetmaker>crowd-sourcing?
18:11<PeterT>Eddi|zuHause: thanks
18:13<PeterT>Eddi|zuHause: what about on Windows?
18:13<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: i don't know if windows supports 2>
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>but if at all, it must be converted to a console app first
18:14<PeterT>yes, that's what yorick said
18:14*andythenorth wonders what layouts to add next
18:14<PeterT>Eddi|zuHause: thanks
18:14<OwenS>Interestingly, some of our 650 seats are never filled
18:15*SmatZ would gladly accept some of those unused
18:16<OwenS>Haha
18:16<OwenS>Sinn Fein MPs refuse to swear allegance to the queen :p
18:17<SmatZ>how comes?
18:18<OwenS>SmatZ: They're Irish Republicans
18:18<OwenS>i.e. they want to be part of Ireland not the UK
18:18<SmatZ>interesting :)
18:18<SmatZ>I mean, really interesting
18:18<SmatZ>I wouldn't expect that in GB
18:19<OwenS>The irony is that if someone were to propose to give NI to Eire, then they couldn't vote for it :p
18:19<SmatZ>:)
18:20-!-JostVice [~jostvice@85.136.129.22.dyn.user.ono.com] has left #openttd []
18:21<SmatZ>@seen JostVice
18:21<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: JostVice was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 6 days, 9 hours, 21 minutes, and 17 seconds ago: <JostVice> I already have two platforms in the stations, and a section with double track, what sygnals should i put in that section and in the track? I guess normal two way block signals in the whole track, and entry presignals and exit signals ?
18:22<Eddi|zuHause>someone was talking on-topic here? how dare he!
18:22<SmatZ>:)
18:22<andythenorth>@seen the_answers
18:22<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: I have not seen the_answers.
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18:27<yorick>what's gonna be special for r20000
18:27<OwenS>XD Nice to hear the BNP candidate getting booed
18:27<andythenorth>yorick: hovercraft on land
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18:28<yorick>andythenorth: maybe we get tomatoes
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18:32<yorick>@svn commit 15027
18:32<@DorpsGek>yorick: Invalid arguments for svn.
18:32<PeterT>@commit r15027
18:32<@DorpsGek>PeterT: Invalid arguments for _commit.
18:32<PeterT>D:
18:32<yorick>(svn r15027) -Merge: tomatos and bananas left to be, here is NoAI for all to see.
18:32<yorick>we already got bananas
18:33<yorick>have we got tomatos?
18:33<@peter1138>etcyes
18:33<@peter1138>er
18:33<@peter1138>yes
18:34<@peter1138>i grew them in my garden
18:34<yorick>oh nvm then
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18:42<Eddi|zuHause>what a lovely fellow.
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18:51<Terkhen>good night
18:52<andythenorth>good night
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19:09<Eddi|zuHause>hm... google changed the layout?
19:10<PeterT>Eddi|zuHause: yes, it looks awful
19:12<OwenS>Only in the UK elections... Could a polling station have to call in the bomb squad
19:12<OwenS>One of the Northern Ireland counts has had a bomb threat
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19:58<DanMacK>Hey all
20:00<PeterT>hi DanMacK
20:00<andythenorth>hi DanMacK
20:01<PeterT>bit late, andythenorth
20:02<PeterT>andythenorth: are you waiting for the polling results too?
20:02<andythenorth>uh huh
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20:27<andythenorth>bed time
20:27<andythenorth>good night
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20:49<Eddi|zuHause>maybe one of you guys can explain this "swing" figure to me that they are constantly talking about?
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---Logclosed Fri May 07 00:00:28 2010