--- | Log | opened Sat May 08 00:00:31 2010 |
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02:15 | <__ln__> | okay, here's the non-nicotine patch: http://users.utu.fi/lanurm/ottd/then-than-2010.diff |
02:16 | <andythenorth> | morning |
02:16 | <__ln__> | morning, señor |
02:17 | <Vornicus> | Yay patch! |
02:25 | <andythenorth> | oh |
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02:37 | <andythenorth> | so the buy menu has a text label 'speed' and the vehicle info window has 'Max. speed' |
02:37 | * | andythenorth wonders if it's a deliberate inconsistency? |
02:37 | <andythenorth> | 'Max. speed' everywhere would suit my purpose better :) |
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02:57 | <Terkhen> | good morning |
02:57 | <Zuu> | morning |
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02:59 | <andythenorth> | hi Terkhen |
03:02 | * | andythenorth has to think about a few things "( |
03:02 | <andythenorth> | :( |
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03:11 | <andythenorth> | Terkhen: do you use cargodist in your FIRS games? |
03:12 | <Terkhen> | no |
03:12 | <andythenorth> | ho hum |
03:12 | <Terkhen> | I have never used cargodist |
03:12 | <andythenorth> | me neither |
03:12 | <andythenorth> | FIRS might be seriously flawed with cargodist :( |
03:14 | <Terkhen> | I remember reading something about all supplies wanting to go to the same industry |
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03:15 | <Terkhen> | is that the problem? |
03:15 | <andythenorth> | stuff like that |
03:15 | * | andythenorth is depressed about FIRS and does something else instead |
03:17 | <Terkhen> | IMO cargodist should give NewGRFs a way of deciding which cargos use that system and which ones don't |
03:17 | <andythenorth> | that would be interesting |
03:18 | <andythenorth> | I should play a cargo dist game to test FIRS, but games take time :o |
03:18 | <andythenorth> | I only have time to test trunk with FIRS |
03:19 | <Terkhen> | but adding NewGRF support in patches is kind of tricky: you could end up with grfs that support cargodist and not trunk and viceversa |
03:19 | <Terkhen> | and that situation is not desirable at all |
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03:58 | <andythenorth> | when I've asked for feedback on the forums.....it's bad behaviour to do a nitpick reply to that feedback |
03:58 | <andythenorth> | yes / no? |
04:09 | <__ln__> | no |
04:11 | <Alberth> | do you expect to get better feedback by doing that? if not, I'd just ignore it and/or learn from it that some people have a different angle than expected |
04:12 | <Alberth> | writing a negative response tends to make you feel better, but rarely turns into something positive |
04:13 | * | andythenorth nitpicks Alberth :P |
04:13 | <andythenorth> | :D |
04:13 | * | Alberth ignores andythenorth :D |
04:14 | <andythenorth> | I'm not going to nitpick feedback. It discourages feedback |
04:14 | <Alberth> | good response :) |
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04:26 | <andythenorth> | this is what I wanted to nitpick because it confuses me: |
04:26 | <andythenorth> | ". It's never a good idea to have an effective dependency on a single type of cargo (or in this case cargo group) for almost all industries" |
04:26 | <andythenorth> | I wonder what the evidence for this is? |
04:26 | <andythenorth> | and I don't understand this: |
04:26 | <andythenorth> | "Even more so considering how little you can influence where cargo actually goes" |
04:27 | <andythenorth> | :( |
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04:27 | <andythenorth> | I thought cargo goes where the vehicles take it? |
04:28 | <Alberth> | asking for clarification is not nitpicking imho |
04:29 | <Alberth> | perhaps he assumes cargo-dist? |
04:29 | <andythenorth> | "even with Cargodist, though that does do a far better job at distributing the supplies" |
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04:30 | <andythenorth> | distributing the supplies is the job of the player? I'm properly baffled, not just being mean because someone doesn't like my work |
04:30 | <Terkhen> | I don't understand it either |
04:30 | <andythenorth> | It's a long and thoughtful piece of feedback, but I don't understand a lot of it |
04:31 | <Alberth> | I'd ask for clarification, I see nothing wrong with that |
04:31 | <Alberth> | likely he assumes some context that he didn't mention. |
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04:54 | <nighthawk_c_m> | Any 32 bpp guru online? |
04:57 | <andythenorth> | nighthawk_c_m: ...someone else wanted to collaborate on FIRS german translations, I need to send you his pm |
04:57 | <nighthawk_c_m> | Oh cool, sure |
04:58 | <nighthawk_c_m> | I will continue tonight a bit on the translation - how can we toss the translatred file to you? |
04:59 | <andythenorth> | what is your forum nick? |
05:01 | <andythenorth> | also planetmaker / Terkhen....the FIRS translation framework changed? So does nighthawk_c_m need new files to put the translation into? |
05:01 | <Terkhen> | the 7F_any file changed, yes |
05:02 | <Terkhen> | and some strings duplicated in many places were merged |
05:02 | <nighthawk_c_m> | nighthawk_c_m is my forum nick |
05:03 | <Terkhen> | nighthawk_c_m: you should download the new 7F_any.pnfo file and move your translated strings there (remember to change the LANG IDs in the new file too) |
05:03 | <nighthawk_c_m> | ok, I will take a look later on - right now I am quite pissed that I can't get that dumb 32bpp stuff to work in a patched game client |
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05:10 | <andythenorth> | nighthawk_c_m: pm sent |
05:11 | <andythenorth> | some of Kogut's suggestions are well thought out |
05:11 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
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05:12 | <andythenorth> | is it bonkers that (Arctic, Tropic) towns only require 1 unit of food per month? I kind of like that... |
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05:16 | <nighthawkcm> | Since you can't decide the distribution on stations it is ok I think |
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05:17 | <nighthawkcm> | Otherwise you would have to scale the need according to town size - as a result of that you would need to be able to accordingly set up trains and tell stations on how to feed the trains - or have trains go from town to town and partially unload |
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05:30 | <andythenorth> | that's exactly what I think :) |
05:30 | <andythenorth> | stuff like town population should be decoupled from demand for food |
05:33 | <nighthawkcm> | Yeah, otherwise it gets way too complicated - and under all circumstances the game has to be still somewhat newbie friendly |
05:34 | <andythenorth> | that's why FIRS also decouples primary production from delivered supplies |
05:35 | <andythenorth> | (A) the game does it for towns already, it's a nice mechanic (B) there could be horrible implications if production depended too closely on delivered supplies |
05:40 | <nighthawkcm> | ^^ Such mechanics can be very complicated I guess - too complicated to work unless you create a scenario where they can work |
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05:47 | <OwenS> | "The electorate have invented an instrument of excruciating torture for the Liberal Democrats". Hehe |
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05:51 | <goblin_> | hi |
05:51 | <goblin_> | i've got quite a problem with openttd |
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05:52 | <goblin_> | does it have problems to start when its started with a link (under linux, a hardlink) |
05:52 | <Terkhen> | what problem? |
05:52 | <goblin_> | it crashes, acting like a forkbomb |
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05:52 | <goblin_> | 30k processes and more until i restart, 'killall openttd' does not really help |
05:53 | <SmatZ> | hmm did goblin_ find out secret backdoor? |
05:53 | <SmatZ> | oops |
05:53 | * | Zuu groans at an assert that only happens sometimes when an AI crash but not always. |
05:53 | <goblin_> | when i start the self compiled binary directly, it starts normally, but if i start it with the hardlink, it crashes |
05:54 | <Progman> | goblin_: what do you get if you run it via strace? |
05:54 | <goblin_> | the precompiled packages (ubuntu repository, deb-package from homepage) ahve the same problem, because of that i compiled it myself |
05:54 | <goblin_> | Zuu: its nearly a virgin, my openttd, ive compiled it yesterday and have no AI's installed |
05:55 | <goblin_> | strace? |
05:55 | <goblin_> | i'll test |
05:55 | <Progman> | "strace ./openttd" |
05:55 | <Zuu> | goblin_: My groan was not directed at you. The assert Im trying to track down only happens for AI devs or other who use a hidden AI dev feature. |
05:56 | <SmatZ> | goblin_: http://paste.openttd.org/225747 did you read this part of readme/known_bugs? |
05:57 | <SmatZ> | also, there is hardly a difference between "hard linking" and "copying" the binary (for the executed program) |
05:57 | <Zuu> | It's just that it would be easier to fix if I could make a tiny AI script that cause the assert to happen rather than having to use an AI with several thousand lines of code to reproduce the assert. |
05:57 | <planetmaker> | moin |
05:57 | <SmatZ> | hello PlanetMaker |
05:58 | <goblin_> | yes, i know it, but it does not start, and when i start the local binary compiled by myself, it runs normally, so i thought it was another issue |
05:58 | <planetmaker> | hey SmatZ :-) |
05:58 | <planetmaker> | give me a climate for a long, narrow map for the PS :-) |
05:59 | <SmatZ> | if the compiled binary works fine, it might be bug in your distro's binary |
05:59 | <goblin_> | Progman: my compiled file works normal, i try it with the hardlink |
05:59 | <SmatZ> | planetmaker: usually we play Arctic climate, but then there is even less space because of the hills... so could we try Tropic? |
06:00 | <planetmaker> | ok :-) Tropic it is then |
06:00 | <goblin_> | SmatZ: I thought that too, but I have the same problem with the .deb-package from the official download page |
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06:00 | <SmatZ> | :/ |
06:00 | <SmatZ> | goblin_: did you try "SDL_AUDIODRIVER=pulse openttd" ? |
06:00 | <goblin_> | no |
06:00 | <SmatZ> | so you didn't read the link I posted |
06:01 | <planetmaker> | hm... unsing variety distribution on 64x2048 looks plain ugly |
06:02 | <goblin_> | yes i did, but i'm running strace at the moment, i'll try this right after |
06:03 | <goblin_> | Progman: where to paste the result? |
06:04 | <SmatZ> | goblin_: http://paste.openttd.org/ |
06:05 | <planetmaker> | hm... didn't the area tool once work for lower / raise terrain, too? |
06:06 | <SmatZ> | planetmaker: are you using clean binary? |
06:06 | <planetmaker> | hm, it does. |
06:06 | <planetmaker> | but not in scenario editor. I use clean nightly compile |
06:06 | <SmatZ> | oh, that |
06:06 | <SmatZ> | yes, by design :) |
06:07 | <planetmaker> | uh? |
06:07 | <planetmaker> | You can area-rise ingame, but not in scenario editor? |
06:07 | <SmatZ> | there are other tools for that in SE |
06:07 | <planetmaker> | That sounds like a design goal reversed... |
06:07 | <planetmaker> | hm |
06:07 | <Terkhen> | you can change raise/lower size manually |
06:07 | <SmatZ> | it's easier to create random-looking terrain in SE |
06:07 | <SmatZ> | (reminds me I wanted to improve that) |
06:08 | <planetmaker> | Terkhen: yes. But only tile per tile |
06:08 | <planetmaker> | not drag the tool |
06:08 | <planetmaker> | but I can drag level land |
06:08 | <planetmaker> | which is quite stuipd |
06:09 | <planetmaker> | or how do I _manually_ create a nice-looking mountain range? |
06:09 | <Terkhen> | I agree, yes :P |
06:09 | <Progman> | goblin_: so, you posted the output on paste.openttd.org? |
06:10 | <planetmaker> | so... I'm not missing the area-rise / area-lower tool in SE? :-( |
06:11 | <goblin_> | http://paste.openttd.org/225748 |
06:11 | <Terkhen> | I usually raise/lower a single tile and then use level :/ |
06:11 | <planetmaker> | [12:07] <SmatZ> there are other tools for that in SE <-- which do you mean? |
06:11 | <goblin_> | finally, first time i piped the wrong output :-D and the system nearly hangs up when i do that, but now its done |
06:11 | <SmatZ> | planetmaker: you can choose the size of area to terraform |
06:12 | <SmatZ> | also, raise+level :) |
06:12 | <goblin_> | SmatZ: enter "SDL_AUDIODRIVER=pulse openttd" directly into the shell? |
06:12 | <planetmaker> | ah.... that :-) |
06:12 | <planetmaker> | I missed that. still... why not drag? |
06:12 | <SmatZ> | goblin_: yes .. probably you need to replace openttd by path to your hardlink |
06:12 | <planetmaker> | thanks though :-) |
06:12 | <Progman> | goblin_: what does one of the childs do? |
06:13 | <goblin_> | SmatZ: Sorry, never mind, reading is harder than i thought m( |
06:13 | <Zuu> | Finding out why a global var has the wrong value is .... fun :-) |
06:13 | <goblin_> | Progman: I don't know, use memory? |
06:13 | <SmatZ> | planetmaker: https://secure.openttd.org/bugs/task/2001 |
06:14 | <Progman> | goblin_: I mean run a strace on the childs aswell ;) |
06:14 | * | SmatZ wonders if there is any fork() in OTTD code at all |
06:15 | <goblin_> | SmatZ: it's the same, plenty of processes |
06:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | SmatZ: autosave? |
06:15 | <goblin_> | how do I rum strace on the children? |
06:15 | <goblin_> | in a new shell? |
06:15 | <planetmaker> | thanks SmatZ |
06:16 | <Progman> | goblin_: -f |
06:16 | <Progman> | goblin_: or with a new shell, yes |
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06:17 | <planetmaker> | SmatZ: actually I meant a different drag :-) |
06:17 | <planetmaker> | Not like a pencil but like just draw a rect and then operate on that |
06:18 | <Progman> | goblin_: do I need to ask btw. why you are using a hardlink? ;) |
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06:18 | <andythenorth> | planetmaker / Ammler coop games prove that longer trains != better yes/no? |
06:18 | <planetmaker> | andythenorth: neither. Just a matter of taste |
06:18 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
06:19 | * | andythenorth comes over all Toyota about something |
06:19 | <OwenS> | Longer trains are slower to accelerate but more efficient with cargo capacity, assuming same number of engines |
06:19 | <planetmaker> | shorter trains can help, though, to rise station rating slightly: trains visit stations more often |
06:19 | <planetmaker> | but that's next to negligible |
06:19 | <goblin_> | Progman: because I have compiled it and placed a link in my ~/bin folder so i can start it directly with 'openttd' and have noch to run './openttd/openttd-1.0.1/bin/openttd' ;-) |
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06:20 | <Progman> | and what about using a symlink? |
06:20 | <planetmaker> | for primary industries shorter trains do make sense though, at least in the beginning; otherwise you don't ship the cargo |
06:20 | <Progman> | and/or changing the PATH var |
06:20 | <andythenorth> | I guess there are so many variables |
06:20 | <planetmaker> | but that then depends on the industry's behaviour |
06:21 | <planetmaker> | it will feel unserviced too quickly, if you load a 32-tile train on a 32t coal mine |
06:21 | <Progman> | goblin_: anyway, have you fetched the strace output of a child of openttd? |
06:21 | <andythenorth> | I only build one or two platforms at an industry, and I don't have more total train capacity on the route than output, so more smaller trains keeps a better service |
06:21 | <planetmaker> | in general I'd say: except for very low production counts, the train length doesn't matter |
06:21 | <goblin_> | Progman: same problem with symlink |
06:22 | <planetmaker> | andythenorth: so do we play, too. |
06:22 | <planetmaker> | except for industries late game where that doesn't suffice anymore |
06:22 | <andythenorth> | also I don't use complex junctions, pre-signal wizardry etc. so smaller trains leads to less junction blocking |
06:22 | <planetmaker> | or secondary ones with a HIGH turn-over |
06:22 | <goblin_> | Progman: yes, i ran strace -f and i have 11756 lines in my logfile |
06:23 | <Progman> | show is in paste.openttd.org |
06:23 | <planetmaker> | andythenorth: you cannot service a 2000t coal mine with two tracks. Nearly irrespective of train length ;-) |
06:23 | <andythenorth> | you can if you accept a low % transported :P |
06:23 | <planetmaker> | and "usual" train length which we use are 2..7 for cargo and up to maybe 14 for inter-city passengers |
06:24 | <planetmaker> | and secondary goods transport |
06:24 | * | andythenorth hmms |
06:24 | <goblin_> | i think it was a bad idea to copy-paste the whole 11756 lines in my browser ... |
06:24 | <goblin_> | okay he's done, a moment |
06:25 | <andythenorth> | I was just thinking about the assertion "The game is designed around the concept, that more cargo/load is better" |
06:25 | <andythenorth> | which I don't think holds |
06:25 | <andythenorth> | but anyway, these pixels won't paint themselves |
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06:26 | <andythenorth> | fonsinchen: hi hi :) |
06:27 | <andythenorth> | it seems some of my assumptions about FIRS gameplay might clash with cargodist :o |
06:27 | <andythenorth> | or so players are telling me |
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06:27 | <goblin_> | Progman: the browser refused to send, but the logfile hast 7,6 MB plain ASCII text ... |
06:27 | <SmatZ> | [12:15:18] <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: autosave? <== it runs in separate thread, not process |
06:27 | <Progman> | only past the first 1000 lines |
06:28 | <SmatZ> | fork() is used when running dedicated server in background... |
06:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | SmatZ: sorry, then i don't know the difference... |
06:29 | <goblin_> | http://paste.openttd.org/225749 |
06:29 | <planetmaker> | hm... how do I "paint" rain forrest (=green) tiles in the SE? |
06:29 | * | andythenorth tries to puzzle out a hack so that industries somehow require passenger service (for workers) |
06:30 | <Eddi|zuHause> | like you put desert, just with ctrl? |
06:30 | <planetmaker> | ah... nvm |
06:30 | <planetmaker> | yeah |
06:30 | <planetmaker> | quite intuitive :-( |
06:31 | <andythenorth> | what do you guys think about industries 'needing' workers (maybe as production boost or something) |
06:31 | <goblin_> | http://paste.openttd.org/225750 |
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06:31 | <Alberth> | plain industries call them passengers |
06:31 | <goblin_> | this is the 1000 lines tail, quite unspectacular |
06:32 | <andythenorth> | Alberth: yup, surprising number of industry tiles accept passengers |
06:32 | <nighthawkcm> | Any 32bpp guru here? |
06:32 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: it might be interesting, but you'd burn an incoming and an outgoing cargo for every industry this way |
06:32 | <Alberth> | but often not in a way that is useful for the player, it seems |
06:33 | <andythenorth> | been wondering about trying to look at nearby station cargo or something nuts like that |
06:33 | <Terkhen> | I don't like it |
06:33 | <andythenorth> | Pikka did it by brute force with location restrictions |
06:33 | <Terkhen> | I think it overcomplicates things |
06:33 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i think MB planned something like "workers" for his hypothetical industry set |
06:33 | <Progman> | goblin_: "#! /bin/sh\ncd /opt/free/games/op"... |
06:33 | <planetmaker> | andythenorth: I don't think industries should need workers |
06:33 | <andythenorth> | me neither |
06:33 | <Progman> | goblin_: do you start openttd via a script? |
06:33 | <Zuu> | yay, reproduction in the small AI, now I just have to narrow it down as much as I can. |
06:34 | <andythenorth> | planetmaker: it seems Chris Sawyer thought they did though :) |
06:34 | <fonsinchen> | hi andythenorth |
06:34 | <goblin_> | no, i have a hardlink in my ~home/bin directory |
06:34 | <planetmaker> | andythenorth: unless they also supply passengers, you have a perfect passenger sink |
06:35 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: it's not very consequent in the original industries |
06:35 | <planetmaker> | which gives the idea of the industry shipping green food... as in the novel which name I forgot |
06:35 | <Terkhen> | yeah, I'd assume that workers live near the industry, even if it is placed in the middle of nowhere |
06:35 | <planetmaker> | some association I don't fancy |
06:35 | <andythenorth> | workers have legs |
06:35 | <andythenorth> | or a bike |
06:36 | <goblin_> | Progman: there is an old installation O.o |
06:36 | <fonsinchen> | what exactly is the clash between cargodist and firs? |
06:36 | <andythenorth> | we also don't concern ourselves with how industries get fuel, electricity, water etc. |
06:36 | <goblin_> | i purged the packages from the repo and from the deb-package before i compiled ... wtf? |
06:37 | <andythenorth> | fonsinchen: I'm not exactly sure. By design FIRS requires some routes to industries to have very low cargo volumes and use reverse-feeders. |
06:38 | <andythenorth> | apparently this causes link-graph issues |
06:38 | <goblin_> | Progman: that seems to be the problem, I rm'ed this directory and now the symlink doesn't start because he demands it ... but i shurely have not linked it to THIS files because i even didn't know anymore that i had them ... |
06:39 | <fonsinchen> | very low cargo volumes might indeed be a problem if you translate that into very infrequent service. |
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06:40 | <goblin_> | strange, but then it's the fault of my system ... he won't create anymore links without ... |
06:40 | <fonsinchen> | That's the old problem about minimum and/or default moving average length |
06:40 | <andythenorth> | I can imagine the issue :) |
06:41 | <goblin_> | very strange, but when i start the binary directly (./openttd) it starts ... |
06:41 | <fonsinchen> | I thought I had solved that by making the moving average length dependent on distance, but obviously that's not the whole thing. |
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06:45 | * | andythenorth ponders making passengers "Engineering Supplies" |
06:45 | <goblin_> | Progman: okay, it was a fault with my $PATH-Variable, i've got a very old installation in /usr/local/bin which is before my ~/bin in the variable ... 'whereis openttd' would have said that to me if i had asked m( |
06:45 | <goblin_> | Progman: I'm very sorry for wasing your time ... |
06:46 | <goblin_> | now I only get: "Error: No available language packs (invalid versions?)" |
06:46 | <planetmaker> | andythenorth: you mean to replace ES by PAX? |
06:46 | <planetmaker> | hm... might be an idea |
06:46 | <planetmaker> | what industries produce ES? |
06:47 | <andythenorth> | I mean to have an industry that converts PAX to ES :P |
06:47 | <Terkhen> | that would make the game less machine shop centered |
06:47 | <andythenorth> | planetmaker and then we're back to your concern about green food |
06:47 | <andythenorth> | :D |
06:47 | <planetmaker> | :-D |
06:48 | <planetmaker> | please don't make an industry which only accepts passengers. |
06:48 | <planetmaker> | that's IMHO very bad |
06:48 | <andythenorth> | "Workers Camp" |
06:48 | <planetmaker> | make it an add-on |
06:48 | <planetmaker> | FIRS-dictator |
06:48 | <andythenorth> | In: PAX, Food. Out: PAX, ENSP |
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06:50 | <andythenorth> | Terkhen: I'm going to add an industry that converts Lumber & Chemicals to ENSP. That should make the machine shop less the centre |
06:50 | <andythenorth> | and also increase focus on oil |
06:50 | <Terkhen> | I like that idea |
06:51 | <andythenorth> | I shall make it so :) |
06:52 | <planetmaker> | yep, that sounds good |
06:53 | <andythenorth> | the other thing that would reduce emphasis on ENSP is sorting out town cargos :) |
06:53 | <andythenorth> | I'm not going to transport goods now that I know it's pointless |
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07:04 | <planetmaker> | loool :-) |
07:04 | <planetmaker> | andythenorth: I know one placement restriction for industries: farms in the desert look quite funny |
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07:05 | <planetmaker> | and the sand and gravel pit need different desert sprites |
07:06 | <planetmaker> | a lake right there looks out-of-place, too |
07:06 | <andythenorth> | he |
07:06 | <andythenorth> | I see your point about the lake |
07:06 | <andythenorth> | however drawing quarries is dull :P |
07:06 | <andythenorth> | the farms....you find them weird? |
07:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the saudis created farms in the desert |
07:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the fields looked circular ;=) |
07:07 | <andythenorth> | I've seen similar when I flew over Africa |
07:08 | <andythenorth> | I could cluster them near a water plant? |
07:08 | <andythenorth> | location restrictions are the wrong solution |
07:08 | <andythenorth> | being able to plant fields with custom graphics is the correct solution :) |
07:08 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so... why haven't you implemented that yet? :p |
07:09 | <andythenorth> | http://tt-foundry.com/misc/greeble_tiles_proposal |
07:09 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: dunno, I just sit around doing nothing :P |
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07:09 | <andythenorth> | meanwhile someone magically stacks up a lot of newgrf commits :P |
07:10 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that sounds exactly like what i am doing ;) |
07:10 | <andythenorth> | stacking up newgrf commits? |
07:10 | <planetmaker> | andythenorth: well, yes, that makes sense with the water plant |
07:10 | <planetmaker> | May I then nevertheless propose to use the ambient ground tile? |
07:10 | <planetmaker> | http://img.openttdcoop.org/images/unnamed280.png |
07:11 | <andythenorth> | you may even code it if you wish :P |
07:11 | <planetmaker> | :-) |
07:11 | <andythenorth> | add a ticket, it's been irritating me for a while. |
07:11 | <andythenorth> | put it in the 0.2 release queue, I'll see if I get to ti |
07:11 | <andythenorth> | it /s |
07:12 | <planetmaker> | no rush. But yeah... just putting it on some list might make sense :-) |
07:14 | <planetmaker> | http://img.openttdcoop.org/images/unnamed080.png <-- they kinda fight for the bit arrable space ;-) |
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07:16 | <andythenorth> | oh well |
07:16 | <planetmaker> | hm... I have a water tanker wagon with a capacity of 18t of steel :-P |
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07:17 | * | planetmaker consider to NOT use tropical refurbishment set with FIRS |
07:18 | <andythenorth> | feel free |
07:18 | <andythenorth> | should I know more than I do about bounding boxes for industry tiles? |
07:19 | <planetmaker> | hard to tell ;-) |
07:19 | <andythenorth> | well keep your eye out for sprite sorter issues :| |
07:19 | <andythenorth> | I have no idea if what I'm doing is correct |
07:19 | <andythenorth> | FooBar sliced some industries very precisely and others very broadly. |
07:20 | <andythenorth> | both seem to work |
07:27 | <andythenorth> | oooh |
07:27 | * | andythenorth remembers the sprite aligner |
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07:31 | <andythenorth> | *very* useful :) |
07:33 | <Ammler> | http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=858964#p858964 <-- does mountain before airport influence landing? |
07:38 | <planetmaker> | it doesn't |
07:38 | <planetmaker> | but it's a nice screenshot ;-) |
07:39 | <Ammler> | [13:08] <andythenorth> http://tt-foundry.com/misc/greeble_tiles_proposal <-- doesn't open in the browser, either fix your server or add extension |
07:40 | <andythenorth> | Ammler: try now |
07:40 | <andythenorth> | or get a not-broken browser :P |
07:41 | <Ammler> | nah :-P |
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07:43 | <nighthawkcm> | any 32bpp guru here? |
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07:44 | <planetmaker> | nighthawkcm: I guess still not :-) |
07:44 | <Ammler> | there are 4 8bpp gurus here, is that fine enough? |
07:44 | <planetmaker> | And it helps to ask the question, not the meta-question |
07:44 | <planetmaker> | (see topic) |
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07:45 | <planetmaker> | that said: the 32bpp need to go in the data dir. |
07:45 | <nighthawkcm> | Hmm... not really, I just don't get it why the 32bpp stuff works with the extra zomm client but not with any other patched client, all I can get to work is the menue bar ... |
07:45 | <planetmaker> | And in the cfg you have to set the blitter to 32bpp-optimized |
07:45 | <nighthawkcm> | I have all that done |
07:45 | <planetmaker> | 32bpp-anim |
07:45 | <planetmaker> | sorry |
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07:45 | <planetmaker> | other than that: my knowledge on that subject is purely theoretical ;-) |
07:45 | <Ammler> | nobody uses 32bpp without zoom |
07:46 | <nighthawkcm> | The zoom is worthless in my oppinion - thats why I want to use it with a different client patch compilation |
07:46 | <nighthawkcm> | If 32bpp is coupled with the zoom its kinda sense free |
07:48 | <Ammler> | nighthawkcm: but it works unpatched? |
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07:49 | <Ammler> | which patch do you try to apply additonally? |
07:49 | <nighthawkcm> | worthless is the wrong expression, I don't use it - hmm.. I think I had gotten it to work unpatched, it worked with the 32bpp zoom client - which basically only has additional Z1 and Z2 sprites |
07:49 | <nighthawkcm> | I am playing with chill cores patch pack |
07:49 | <nighthawkcm> | but it won't work with cargodist with sprinkles either |
07:50 | <planetmaker> | does it work in plain trunk or 32bpp zoom-level patch? |
07:50 | <planetmaker> | if you don't know: try it. If yes: complain to patch pack author |
07:51 | <nighthawkcm> | I doubt that a sprite is related to a patch |
07:51 | <Ammler> | apply the single patches with tests until you find the "bad" patch |
07:51 | <planetmaker> | nighthawkcm: if you use patches, the "I doubt" is bad. You have to prove that it is NOT any of those patches |
07:51 | <nighthawkcm> | Haha - I have no freaking idea how to do that |
07:53 | <planetmaker> | it's part of the things to usually do when having bugs with patch (packs): test the trunk version. And then test each patch separately |
07:53 | <planetmaker> | if it's not a trunk bug: no need to bother others than the patch (pack) authors. |
07:53 | <nighthawkcm> | Well, I base my doubt on logic - If I have a substructure like ottd - and I exchange graphic a with graphic b everything is supposed to work fine if the graphic is coded correctly - see newgrfs - and 32bpp png's are replacing the 8bpp pcx data - there should be no connection at all with the rest of the game structure unless I want the extra zoom levels |
07:54 | <planetmaker> | patches usually are only supported by them. And not telling that you have a problem with a patched version ... oh well. Can be quite annoying to find that out only later |
07:54 | <planetmaker> | nighthawkcm: it's a sufficiently complex thing. :-) And if you don't know how to test these things. Be VERY carful with your logic there |
07:54 | <planetmaker> | it's not up to us to prove you wrong, but you to prove us that your assumptions are right |
07:55 | <planetmaker> | it's a not-supported version you use, after all |
07:55 | <nighthawkcm> | Well, ottd is supposed to be a game that can be used by most people - not a seperate small group |
07:55 | <planetmaker> | yes. But not modded versions |
07:55 | <planetmaker> | if you mod, you have to show that your problems are not caused by the patches |
07:55 | <nighthawkcm> | Well, then the bomb will go up when cargodist makes it into trunk one day :-P |
07:55 | <planetmaker> | so either test whether your problem exists in trunk or let it be |
07:56 | <planetmaker> | nighthawkcm: then it's a problem of the cargodist author. |
07:56 | <planetmaker> | Then post there |
07:56 | <nighthawkcm> | should I test with latest stable or nightly? |
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07:57 | <planetmaker> | whatever you like. Nightly is usually 'better' as it might have more fixes and is the place where development goes on |
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08:01 | <nighthawkcm> | Ok, I copied all the *.tar files from the 32bpp fullzoom version to a openttd install of the latest nightly - won't work - I only get the opengfx graphics |
08:02 | <nighthawkcm> | and ingame only the userbar is now the 32bpp version ... |
08:03 | <nighthawkcm> | I even get the userbar to run under the patched client - but the rest won't work - leading to the assumption that the whole 32bpp bundle that can be found via the zoom project only works with the zoom project .... :-/ |
08:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i'm fairly sure that's exactly what it said on the page you downloaded it from... |
08:10 | <planetmaker> | andythenorth: which industries use callback 28 (construction callback)? |
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08:10 | <nighthawkcm> | Thats another point - I sometimes find the install instructions / explanations a bit short and confusing to find - in the 32bpp section 90% is about the extra zoom - so is the wikki |
08:11 | <planetmaker> | [14:03] <nighthawkcm> I even get the userbar to run under the patched client - but the rest won't work - leading to the assumption that the whole 32bpp bundle that can be found via the zoom project only works with the zoom project .... :-/ <-- yes, that's the fact. |
08:11 | <planetmaker> | and that's being said in multiple places, I'm sure |
08:11 | <nighthawkcm> | at least it seems so too me which in return is very frustrating |
08:11 | <planetmaker> | nighthawkcm: you describe / experience exactly the biggest problem of the 32bpp thing: it's all for a single patch which uses some dubious methods to introduce the zoom levels |
08:12 | <nighthawkcm> | ok, so where do I find a bundle of 32bpp graphics thata ctually work with the game without a patch? |
08:12 | <planetmaker> | I don't think they really exist |
08:13 | <nighthawkcm> | hmm... well they do have to as the ez patch adds two lower zoom levels - thus the standard view exists too, as far as I understood it thats the so called z0 png's |
08:13 | <nighthawkcm> | and z1 and z2 are the extra zooms |
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08:16 | <nighthawkcm> | What did you mean with dubious code planetmaker? |
08:18 | <planetmaker> | they treat the (new) zoom-levels differently than the existing ones |
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08:25 | <andythenorth> | Yexo: your patch to make industry var A7 available during cb28 appears to work |
08:25 | <andythenorth> | :) |
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08:31 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
08:31 | <andythenorth> | how do I do backwards compatibility in a newgrf? |
08:32 | <planetmaker> | action7: conditionally use code A or code B |
08:32 | <andythenorth> | can that check the revision number of the game? |
08:33 | <andythenorth> | grrr |
08:33 | <andythenorth> | http://bugs.openttd.org/ is down for me |
08:34 | <andythenorth> | but not the rest of you it seems |
08:35 | <Eddi|zuHause> | seems to work here |
08:35 | <Eddi|zuHause> | try secure.openttd.org/bugs? |
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08:37 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: thanks |
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08:41 | <Mazur> | pm: Can you, to help test a switch, raise the train limit in Coop, please? avdg built a test track, but can't test it without trains. |
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08:53 | <yorick> | how does openttd autodetect palette? |
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09:05 | <planetmaker> | andythenorth: firs.grf:1044: Warning: 9 of 4992 pixels (0%) are pure white |
09:05 | <planetmaker> | firs.grf:1051: Warning: 2 of 1984 pixels (0%) are pure white |
09:05 | <Ammler> | [14:53] <yorick> how does openttd autodetect palette? <-- it doesn't |
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09:06 | <andythenorth> | planetmaker: thanks |
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09:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yorick: it detects whether you have dos or windows grfs by md5sum, and then it assumes that palette for all newgrfs |
09:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yorick: but you can override that by command line parameter -i, i believe |
09:11 | <yorick> | ah thanks :) |
09:13 | <andythenorth> | meh |
09:13 | <andythenorth> | finding white pixels is a chore |
09:14 | <Rubidium> | Eddi|zuHause: it comes from the .obg |
09:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Rubidium: technical detail ;) |
09:15 | <+glx> | andythenorth: it's just a warning so you can know if you have wrong offsets in the image |
09:16 | <Rubidium> | glx: but with it some colour/palette conversions "fail" |
09:23 | <andythenorth> | planetmaker: fixed |
09:23 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
09:29 | <planetmaker> | andythenorth: it does tell you exactly the sprite. So... it's actually not that hard. Just tedious |
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09:42 | * | planetmaker is pissed off by the industry location permissibility callback |
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09:45 | <andythenorth> | for why? |
09:45 | <planetmaker> | http://paste.openttd.org/225751 <-- any idea why forests are still built in the desert? Or for that matter at all? |
09:46 | <andythenorth> | have you enabled cb28? |
09:47 | <planetmaker> | IIRC yes |
09:48 | <planetmaker> | http://paste.openttd.org/225752 |
09:48 | <planetmaker> | yes |
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09:49 | <planetmaker> | hm... |
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09:52 | <planetmaker> | I think I see the problem |
09:52 | <planetmaker> | callback is already implemented... date checking |
09:52 | <planetmaker> | thus it is overwritten |
09:53 | <planetmaker> | hm... or? |
09:53 | <planetmaker> | I think I activated the wrong callback :-P |
09:56 | <planetmaker> | yes. Thanks, andythenorth |
09:56 | <planetmaker> | would you like me to commit the "forests not in desert" change? |
09:58 | <frosch123> | is there a date plantation instead? |
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09:59 | <planetmaker> | frosch123: that's another industry. But would you make plantation in the desert? And not somewhat where there's at least some water (the green area?) |
10:00 | <planetmaker> | and what's a "date plantation"? |
10:00 | <frosch123> | the dictionary told me "date" for "Dattel" |
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10:03 | <planetmaker> | oh |
10:03 | <planetmaker> | even those I'd put on the green ground - or near a water well. |
10:03 | <asilv> | pruduction rate 30 dates/month? |
10:03 | <planetmaker> | but that's something more advanced not yet introduced |
10:03 | <planetmaker> | :-D |
10:06 | <andythenorth> | planetmaker: the game should be prevented from building these industries in desert, but the player should be allowed if they wish |
10:06 | <andythenorth> | for that we need FS3822 |
10:06 | <andythenorth> | http://bugs.openttd.org/task/3822 |
10:06 | <planetmaker> | hm, ok. That's not in my (simple) mod yet |
10:07 | <andythenorth> | that's why I've left location stuff out |
10:07 | <andythenorth> | I'm hoping that 3822 hits trunk, then I'll ship location code in a few months when enough players have it |
10:08 | <andythenorth> | perhaps frosch123 could help :D |
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10:14 | <planetmaker> | andythenorth: where are the values for that var documented? |
10:15 | <planetmaker> | ah... found it |
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10:18 | * | planetmaker wonders what happens, if I query a non-existant variable |
10:19 | <andythenorth> | game crashes |
10:19 | <andythenorth> | or so it seemed when I tried it |
10:19 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
10:19 | <frosch123> | [16:03] <planetmaker> even those I'd put on the green ground - or near a water well. <- maybe they can only be planted on map creation, not during game |
10:19 | <planetmaker> | it fails |
10:19 | <planetmaker> | so they're still build everywhere |
10:19 | <andythenorth> | no industry built? |
10:19 | <andythenorth> | ah ok |
10:19 | <planetmaker> | and renum complains |
10:19 | <andythenorth> | but no crash? |
10:19 | <planetmaker> | yes, industries are built |
10:20 | <planetmaker> | like normal |
10:20 | <planetmaker> | like now |
10:20 | <planetmaker> | frosch123: you mean forests or date plantations only be placed upon map creation with that restriction? Or...? |
10:21 | <frosch123> | you complained that they shall not suddenly appear in desert. so, they have to be there since the beginning |
10:22 | <andythenorth> | I'm going to ship my solution |
10:22 | <andythenorth> | :) |
10:22 | <andythenorth> | *once* var A7 is available :P |
10:23 | <planetmaker> | frosch123: yes, but also the automatic industry generation should IMHO not build them in the desert. |
10:23 | <planetmaker> | andythenorth: you have already implemented that?! |
10:23 | <andythenorth> | that's why I need var A7 :P |
10:23 | <andythenorth> | planetmaker: nope |
10:24 | <andythenorth> | I'm going to ship my solution *once* (a) var A7 is available (b) I've coded the nfo (c) var A7 has been in trunk for a sufficient period |
10:24 | <andythenorth> | is that more accurate? |
10:24 | <planetmaker> | hm, ok. But if you don't like non-desert forests now it I spent like 4 hours for nothing... alas |
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10:25 | <andythenorth> | no, you just solved (b) for forests and other desert industries, and you can save the diff :) |
10:31 | * | andythenorth feels bad and sends planetmaker a cookie :o |
10:31 | <planetmaker> | :-) |
10:37 | <CIA-6> | OpenTTD: smatz * r19768 /trunk/src/clear_cmd.cpp: -Fix: half-desert tiles would never revert back to clear tiles |
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10:44 | <CIA-6> | OpenTTD: frosch * r19769 /trunk/src/ (landscape.cpp saveload/afterload.cpp tile_map.h): -Fix [FS#3820]: MV_VOID tiles shall have no tropic zone. |
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10:47 | <planetmaker> | he :-P SmatZ took ownership of the bug and frosch does the commit ;-) |
10:48 | <frosch123> | yeah, we started both, but luckily we fixed different bugs |
10:48 | <planetmaker> | :-) |
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10:58 | <andythenorth> | so I have sprite sorter issues :| |
10:59 | <yorick> | oh no |
10:59 | <andythenorth> | I need to understand bounding boxes better |
11:00 | <OwenS> | Oh wow... the Lib Dem HQ has now been surrounded by people supporting electoral reform |
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11:01 | <Sacro> | we need PR |
11:01 | <OwenS> | Sacro: Which is what they are protesting for. And what the Lib Dems want :p |
11:02 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: most likely you do not have sprite sorter issues, but issues with sprites extending the tiles |
11:02 | <Sacro> | OwenS: yes |
11:02 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: sounds plausible |
11:02 | <Sacro> | i'm a lib dem voter and am pissed they didn't get 20-25% of the seats |
11:03 | <andythenorth> | so when can a sprite extend a tile and when can't it? |
11:03 | <OwenS> | Sacro: As am I. I'm also pissed that my vote is basically useless because I'm in a rock solid Labour constituency... |
11:03 | <frosch123> | when drawing the landscape tiles are only drawn if their groundtile and some 100 pixels above intersect with the area to be redrawn |
11:03 | <Sacro> | hehe, we had a major LD swing |
11:03 | <Sacro> | got it down to > 650 votes |
11:03 | <frosch123> | so if you have stuff in the spritelayout of a tile, which extends the groundsprite to left or right, it will glitch |
11:04 | <andythenorth> | so I should just slice it in two? |
11:04 | <andythenorth> | and use two tiles? |
11:04 | <OwenS> | Sacro: Here it was Lab 42.8%, Con 25.9%, LD 16.1% |
11:04 | <OwenS> | LD actually lost here to the conservatives |
11:04 | <frosch123> | likely, does it start glitching at the vertical axis of the tile border? |
11:05 | <Sacro> | 39% LAB 37% LD 13% CON |
11:05 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: yes |
11:05 | <OwenS> | Oh yeah... and 4.4% BNP, which is annoying |
11:06 | <frosch123> | yeah, then you have to cut it, and include it in two tiles |
11:06 | <OwenS> | Our neighbouring constituencies were interesting... One went LAB->CON, another went (very strongly!) LAB->LD |
11:07 | <Sacro> | mmm |
11:07 | <frosch123> | though you may skip the cutting if you just draw it for both tiles |
11:11 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: repeat it with different offsets? |
11:12 | <frosch123> | include it in both spritelayout |
11:13 | <frosch123> | draw the sprite from both tiles (in the same position) |
11:13 | <andythenorth> | I'll slice it :) |
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11:34 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
11:35 | <andythenorth> | is 'alt' considered an available key in the game? |
11:37 | <andythenorth> | nvm |
11:37 | <andythenorth> | ctrl would do |
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11:37 | <Zuu> | Alt is used by many window managers in Linux |
11:38 | <andythenorth> | suggestion for industry mini-map: ctrl-click on one industry type to disable all others |
11:38 | <Zuu> | At worst case it could even get triggered by Alt Gr which would cause even more problems. |
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11:39 | * | Zuu hate programs that trigger hotkeys when you try to type something that involves Alt Gr |
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11:41 | <Zuu> | Hmm, is it just my Spotify that acts strange after the upgrade? Even songs that I have localy freeze several seconds. |
11:44 | <frosch123> | http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/diffs/fsandy.diff <- andythenorth: what could happen when ctrl+clicking a second time? show all? |
11:45 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: yes |
11:45 | <andythenorth> | if it was *really* clever it would show only the ones previously enabled |
11:45 | <frosch123> | that is troublesome if you click on different items |
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11:48 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: the behaviour in that patch is perfect |
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11:49 | * | frosch123 changed it to show all on second click |
11:51 | <andythenorth> | probably fine too :) |
11:52 | <frosch123> | though if ctrl is uses for that, noone can add a "lock" later |
11:53 | <frosch123> | hmm, so, is it really useful enough? |
11:55 | <andythenorth> | dunno. my needs might be different |
11:56 | <andythenorth> | I use the minimap *a lot* to find specific industry types |
11:56 | <andythenorth> | every minute or so for hours at a time.... |
11:56 | <frosch123> | well, me too. but usually it is enough to once press "disable all", and then click one, resp. unclick the last one and click the next one |
11:56 | <andythenorth> | you just saved me a click :) |
11:57 | <frosch123> | maybe a hotkey for disable/enable all is more useful |
11:57 | <andythenorth> | I like the ctrl solution...easier :) |
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11:58 | <frosch123> | yeah, it looks nice. but the more i think about it, i think a hotkey is beeter |
11:59 | <frosch123> | though hotkeys are so stupidly global in ottd |
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12:00 | <andythenorth> | would it also open the minimap :P |
12:00 | <andythenorth> | another click saved... |
12:00 | <frosch123> | :p |
12:00 | <frosch123> | there is already a hotkey for the minimap |
12:01 | <andythenorth> | ! |
12:01 | * | andythenorth wikis |
12:02 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: all buttons in the menubar have a F-key hotkey from left to right |
12:02 | <frosch123> | smallmap is F4 |
12:02 | <andythenorth> | silly old mac needs me to press fn-f4 :| |
12:02 | <andythenorth> | which is just too far for one hand :( |
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12:05 | <Zuu> | Hmm, isn't small map also 'm'? |
12:06 | <frosch123> | oh, indeed :p |
12:07 | <andythenorth> | yay |
12:07 | <andythenorth> | all is well in the world |
12:09 | <Zuu> | And if you commits the filter sign list patch, ctrl+L will get hooked up with the sign lit window. ;-) |
12:09 | <Zuu> | list* |
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12:21 | <argkde4> | andythenorth: there's a toggle for the FN key in system preferences -> keyboard |
12:21 | <andythenorth> | indeed |
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12:24 | <OsteHovel^PDA> | programmable signals patch looks interesting ;) |
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12:55 | <andythenorth> | more layouts: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=41607&p=875985#p875985 |
12:55 | <andythenorth> | took a while :P |
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13:08 | <fjb> | Looks good. |
13:09 | * | andythenorth wonders what next |
13:11 | <andythenorth> | C++ |
13:11 | <andythenorth> | ?? |
13:11 | <andythenorth> | http://tt-foundry.com/misc/greeble_tiles_proposal |
13:13 | <SmatZ> | @dict greeble |
13:13 | <SmatZ> | !dict greeble |
13:13 | <SmatZ> | mmmmm |
13:13 | <andythenorth> | I put the definition in the proposal :) |
13:13 | <andythenorth> | ummm |
13:14 | <andythenorth> | if I try and patch for this, I am *way* out of mydepth |
13:14 | <andythenorth> | already I'm seeing this could be a problem for AI support :| |
13:15 | <andythenorth> | perhaps not if all 'fields' are treated as equal |
13:16 | <Zuu> | The greebles what do they add that fields do not have? I tried to read your proposal. |
13:16 | <Zuu> | It makes it possible for NewGRFs to choose where to build the farm tiles? |
13:16 | <andythenorth> | no, just to specify the graphics to use for the tiles |
13:16 | <andythenorth> | so that more than just farm fields can be shown |
13:17 | <Zuu> | no differentiated clear costs? |
13:17 | <andythenorth> | no, so there is not an AI problem actually |
13:17 | <andythenorth> | greeble tiles == CLEAR_FIELDS |
13:17 | <andythenorth> | the terminology will look very wrong in a lot of code though :o |
13:17 | <Zuu> | Even with diferentiated clear costs, most/all AIs would handle it it. |
13:18 | <frosch123> | can the tiles get cleared independently, or would that result in half houses etc? |
13:18 | <Zuu> | The API do not tell what things cost to build/clear. The way to get costs is to find a tile that you can test on and then activate test mode and accounting mode. |
13:19 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: I have been trying to think of things that *other* grf authors might do that would be silly. |
13:19 | <andythenorth> | I would limit graphics to fit only in one tile |
13:19 | <andythenorth> | the default farm fields look pretty complicated in how they handle adjoining layouts. |
13:20 | <andythenorth> | I don't know how much of that can be replicated |
13:20 | <frosch123> | are the tiles also destroyed by snow? |
13:21 | <andythenorth> | that is a good question |
13:21 | <andythenorth> | preferably not |
13:21 | <frosch123> | do fields always have the same size? |
13:21 | <andythenorth> | I don't know. What are the implications? |
13:21 | <frosch123> | or is there rather some field tile layout? |
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13:22 | <andythenorth> | a layout would be preferable |
13:23 | * | andythenorth looks for the current field code to see how the layouts work |
13:24 | <frosch123> | how do such fields interact with "cleartile-fences" ? |
13:24 | * | andythenorth searches for 'cleartile-fences' |
13:24 | <andythenorth> | where do I find cleartile-fences? |
13:24 | <frosch123> | currently fields have random rectangular size from 4x4 to 7x7 |
13:25 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: there are fences and hedges between clear tiles and fields |
13:25 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: what file is the code in for these? I am searching....but I don't know what keyword to search on :) |
13:26 | <frosch123> | clear_cmd.cpp for the fences, and PlantFarmField in industry_cmd.cpp |
13:26 | <frosch123> | actually everything containing FarbField in industry_cmd.cpp |
13:26 | <frosch123> | *m |
13:27 | <andythenorth> | so the tile defines whether it requires a fence? |
13:27 | <andythenorth> | or did I misread clear_cmd.cpp? |
13:27 | <frosch123> | a tile decides whether it needs fencses at its north side depending on the tiletypes at the north |
13:27 | <frosch123> | so a field only builds its north fences itself. the south fences are build by the clear tiles |
13:28 | <andythenorth> | makes sense |
13:28 | <frosch123> | makes it more complicated :p |
13:28 | <andythenorth> | hmmm....the fences make my plan more complicated |
13:28 | <andythenorth> | although they could be a route to the 'industry fences' that get requested occasionally |
13:29 | <frosch123> | what type of fields are you planning? forrests and mines? |
13:29 | <andythenorth> | farms, forests, mines yes |
13:29 | <andythenorth> | possibly 'landscaping' for other industries, but I'll settle for what's possible :D |
13:29 | <andythenorth> | I also don't fancy two months of drawing 'field' tiles |
13:29 | <andythenorth> | well I would if I had nothing else to do....but.... :P |
13:30 | <frosch123> | some hay bales for ogfx would be enough :p |
13:31 | <andythenorth> | there are hay bales in FIRS. FooBar drew them. They are used in the mixed farm ;) |
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13:33 | <CIA-6> | OpenTTD: frosch * r19770 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Feature: Hide all other industries when ctrl+clicking an industry type in smallmap legend. |
13:33 | <andythenorth> | ^ :) |
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13:34 | <frosch123> | the yellow swines? |
13:34 | <frosch123> | maybe a bit to bright for ogfx |
13:37 | <andythenorth> | easily recolored? |
13:37 | <frosch123> | can you show an example :p |
13:37 | <andythenorth> | this fields code is quite complex for my poor brain |
13:38 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: I haven't drawn for ogfx, I'll have a look |
13:38 | <frosch123> | neither me :) |
13:40 | * | andythenorth wonders about round bales |
13:40 | <andythenorth> | I think the default ones are actually stacks of bales, not single bales |
13:40 | <andythenorth> | http://www.waterloo-farm.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/hay_bales_stack.jpg |
13:41 | * | andythenorth goes back to reading baffling industry code |
13:41 | <frosch123> | http://www.bauer-beelitz.de/images/heuballen.jpg <- you mean those? |
13:42 | <frosch123> | http://www.agrartransporte-lauber.de/Bilder/360_unimog_mit_heuballen.jpg <- or those? :p |
13:42 | <andythenorth> | round bales? Yes. But they don't fit pre 1960s or some other date (I'm not sure exactly) :) |
13:42 | <andythenorth> | and incidentally, don't tell anyone but HEQS will soon feature a Unimog |
13:44 | <Vornicus> | Round balers first appeared in 1947. |
13:44 | <Vornicus> | Or at least according to Wikipedia. |
13:45 | <CIA-6> | OpenTTD: translators * r19771 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files): |
13:45 | <CIA-6> | OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: |
13:45 | <CIA-6> | OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 1 changes by josesun |
13:45 | <CIA-6> | OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 3 changes by Tucalipe |
13:45 | <CIA-6> | OpenTTD: russian - 1 changes by Lone_Wolf |
13:45 | <CIA-6> | OpenTTD: slovak - 77 changes by keso53 |
13:45 | <CIA-6> | OpenTTD: swedish - 3 changes by Zuu |
13:46 | <Vornicus> | But then, square balers appear to have first appeared around that time too - 1940ish? Before then, hay bales were done manually, and looked it. |
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13:48 | * | andythenorth will try and draw some bales later |
13:48 | <andythenorth> | and thinks that a Unimog in HEQS is also available as a rail vehicle :o |
13:50 | <Vornicus> | I remember back when I used to be here and people would ask "how big is a tile?" and there are something like four answers. |
13:52 | <Vornicus> | (the topographical map gives one - a single height quantum is 33m, so a tile is about 5 times that or 166 meters; then the size of buildings gives another - about 10-15m; then the size of trains gives a third - about 30-40m. Then calculation from gauge gives something ridiculously small, and then there's a height exaggeration which makes it ridiculously large.) |
13:53 | <Rubidium> | huh? |
13:53 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: so the existing code plants a whole field of tiles at once? |
13:53 | <Rubidium> | a heightlevel is either 50 (current trunk) or 25 (everything from more than a week ago) |
13:53 | <@peter1138> | why was it changed? |
13:54 | <Rubidium> | because it wasn't in sync with the measurement tool |
13:54 | <@peter1138> | measurement tool should've been changed :p |
13:54 | <Rubidium> | so technically I should have said: |
13:54 | <Alberth> | 350m for a mountain doesn't seem good |
13:54 | <Rubidium> | a heightlevel is either 50 for current trunk or either 25 or 50 for everything older than a week |
13:55 | <andythenorth> | hmmm |
13:55 | <andythenorth> | and fields take on irregular shapes over time because one square overplants another? |
13:55 | <andythenorth> | square / rectangle /s |
13:55 | <Vornicus> | Rubidium: I may have gotten that 33 wrong, this was back when I was playing around with it trying to figure out how big things were -- I remembered it was something like 100m in the map was 3 height quanta or so, or something. |
13:56 | <Rubidium> | Vornicus: so, level 0, level 50 and level 100; not level 0, level 33 and level 66 (then you miss one level) |
13:56 | <asilv> | is there really need to show actual heights in meters in game? wouldn't it be better to have it in some arbitrary heightlevels |
13:57 | <Rubidium> | asilv: 50m isn't arbitrary enough? |
13:57 | <Alberth> | why? we also show speed in km/h or so |
13:58 | <Rubidium> | Alberth: I think we should give that in arbitrary numbers, i.e. in x/1.6mph, x/3.2mph or x/0.8mph |
13:58 | <@peter1138> | pixels per second |
13:58 | <asilv> | that would remove arguments like: "350m for a mountain doesn't seem good" |
13:59 | <andythenorth> | just measure everything in 'units' :P |
13:59 | <Alberth> | Rubidium: perhaps use a random generator? |
13:59 | <@peter1138> | height: 8 pixels |
13:59 | * | peter1138 ponders that as a new units format :D |
13:59 | <andythenorth> | Alberth: oddly enough I am planning some random speeds :P |
13:59 | <Rubidium> | peter1138: pixels per tick ofcourse :) |
13:59 | <Alberth> | andythenorth: not needed, we display a random speed anyway :p |
13:59 | <@peter1138> | aye |
14:00 | <@peter1138> | isn't that similar to mph? |
14:00 | <Alberth> | sshh! |
14:00 | <@peter1138> | :) |
14:00 | <@peter1138> | of course, pixels per tick would change depending on vehicle direction |
14:00 | * | Sacro ticks |
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14:03 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: for FIRS, any 'fields' would definitely be limited to organic industries (farms, plantations, forests etc.) and possibly mines |
14:04 | <andythenorth> | I can see reasons to place tiles around other industries, warehouses etc. But it will be horribly confusing for station construction. |
14:05 | <Vornicus> | Ah, here's how I got that. |
14:05 | <Zuu> | Alberth: The random speed was fixed some revisions ago. Now stuck vehicles only drive in 0 km/h |
14:06 | <Vornicus> | the absolute highest altitude you can have is colored the same as the label "500m" in the contour map. |
14:07 | <Vornicus> | Since there are exactly 16 quanta, and the bottom one is sea level, that means you get 500 / (16 - 1) for the height of one quantum. |
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14:08 | <Vornicus> | ...on the /other/ hand, sea level land is colored the same as the label "100m", which makes the quanta 25m, and the beach 100m high. |
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14:09 | <Zuu> | I'd say stop caring about scale, makes life much easier. |
14:09 | <Vornicus> | Suggested fix: on the contour map, relabel the colors to 0, 200, 400, 600, and 800m, which makes sea level actually sea level, and the height quantum 50 meters. |
14:10 | <Vornicus> | Zuu: where's the fun in that? :P |
14:10 | <andythenorth> | I'd just knock the unit off and have them 0, 200, 400 |
14:10 | <andythenorth> | etc |
14:10 | <Zuu> | Spending your time on more fun stuff like AI programming or traffic engineering. :-) |
14:11 | <Vornicus> | But I can't program AI, and my traffic engineering skills are... well they're not very good. |
14:11 | <Alberth> | Vornicus: implemented about 22 hours ago |
14:12 | <Vornicus> | Alberth: works for me! |
14:12 | * | andythenorth ponders what a forest should look like if done with fields |
14:13 | <Alberth> | lots of railroad tracks through the forest |
14:13 | <andythenorth> | ? |
14:13 | <Zuu> | And don't forget the checkpoints for the orienteering runners. :-p |
14:15 | <andythenorth> | I don't think |
14:15 | <andythenorth> | that they are essential :P |
14:16 | * | andythenorth ponders |
14:17 | <andythenorth> | how to differentiate forest 'fields' from ordinary trees |
14:17 | <andythenorth> | and whether square 'fields' of forest would look good in game |
14:18 | <Zuu> | I would probably try to make it look like man made forests. |
14:18 | <Zuu> | If you can use different graphics on different tiles you could try adding a trail from the forrest machines. |
14:19 | <andythenorth> | Zuu: currently I can't use any graphics on any field tiles, so it's a bit hypothetical :D |
14:21 | * | Vornicus tries to remember how to even /use/ presignals. |
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14:27 | * | andythenorth ponders |
14:27 | <andythenorth> | mines wouldn't need fields |
14:27 | <andythenorth> | spoil heaps and stuff might be eye candy but aren't necessary |
14:28 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: fields resolves down to (a) simply being able to control the tile graphics for existing fields (to customise for different farm types).....and (b) some kind of solution for forests, which might be best done differently |
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14:36 | <Vornicus> | Logging camps I'd actually do by having the building, and then just change the way trees nearby react. |
14:40 | <andythenorth> | Zuu: you might know the answer to this....could a 'helper' AI plant trees around logging camps? |
14:42 | <frosch123> | yes, as long as it does not bankrup |
14:43 | <frosch123> | though it cannot detect logging camps as such, just industries producing woody stuff |
14:43 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that should probably be fixed... |
14:43 | <frosch123> | how? |
14:43 | <frosch123> | grfid and local id? |
14:44 | <andythenorth> | special flag 0? |
14:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i don't know exactly... |
14:44 | <frosch123> | or should industries get a 4 byte behaviour id? |
14:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | in general, newgrfs need more possibilities to tell the AI what's going on |
14:44 | * | Vornicus tries to figure out a heuristic. Each logging camp would choose a particular tree to grow - then trees of that type would be planted nearby, and then would get removed (bulldozed) when they reach maturity. |
14:44 | <frosch123> | for normal primary industries, for primary industries with production boosters, for normal secondary, for secondary which need all cargos, for secondary with stockpiling? |
14:45 | <Zuu> | andythenorth: AI's can plant trees, some use it to "bride" towns. But AI's cant know which tiles that belong to an industry, only get their north corner tile. |
14:45 | <andythenorth> | I was thinking of a hack |
14:46 | <Zuu> | Not sure if you can specify which trees to build. It is probably only random trees. |
14:46 | <andythenorth> | I could use the existing special industry flag bit 1 (industry cuts trees), but I hate that behaviour. |
14:46 | <andythenorth> | I don't want to be pinning 10 logging camp windows and planting trees when they run out :( |
14:46 | <andythenorth> | So if the logging camp could plant it's own trees.... |
14:46 | <andythenorth> | its /s |
14:47 | <andythenorth> | AI could be one solution, but it's a monster hack |
14:47 | <andythenorth> | A new special flag: plant trees could be another solution |
14:47 | <andythenorth> | Or adapt the 'fields' behaviour |
14:47 | <Alberth> | remove tree cutting from the game? |
14:47 | <Vornicus> | I take it there's more to that behavior than display, for Industry Cuts Trees? |
14:47 | <andythenorth> | It produces cargo |
14:47 | <Vornicus> | ah. |
14:48 | <andythenorth> | I don't exactly know how the cutting relates to the cargo production rate (if at all) |
14:48 | <andythenorth> | I haven't explored it because it's one of my least favourite Chris Sawyer 'quirks' |
14:50 | <frosch123> | the trees are cut cicular around the industry, and every tile produces a fixed amount of cargo |
14:51 | <frosch123> | there are no production rates |
14:51 | * | andythenorth dislikes that :D |
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14:54 | <andythenorth> | there's so much industry code already for specific behaviours :| |
14:54 | <andythenorth> | it makes me hesitant to suggest further special flags etc |
14:58 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: resp. fields. Simply controlling the graphics used for a tile looks far less complex than controlling also the layouts and fences? |
15:00 | * | andythenorth doesn't quite understand whether the existing code specifies a number for a real sprite, or the ID of a tile |
15:00 | <Alberth> | what do you think? It happened by accident, but the blue boxes seem nice http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/new_newgrf2.png |
15:01 | <frosch123> | looks like tto |
15:01 | <andythenorth> | I preferred your single list version (sorry) :| |
15:02 | * | andythenorth has been feeling grumpy about feedback today and shouldn't inflict it on others :) |
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15:43 | <Zuu> | I think the blue and purple colours do not go well togeather. |
15:44 | <Zuu> | Is there a good reason why the lists use different backgrounds? The only reasons I can come up with are historic reasons regarding the NewGRF dialog and that the save/load dialogs use black background and somehow the black background represents that it is files. |
15:46 | <Alberth> | i changed the backgrounds all back to MAUVE, it is more subtle that way |
15:47 | <Alberth> | as for the list backgrounds, I don't know |
15:47 | <Alberth> | black matrix widget is bad as you will not see the seperating lines, I guess |
15:47 | <Zuu> | I wonder if it is a problem to have the apply button far from the close window button. Maybe it is motivated to remove the x-button and have a close button at the lower right as with the difficulty window. |
15:48 | <Alberth> | I don't like not having a 'x' close button at the top |
15:49 | * | Vornicus watches the splash screen for a while. |
15:49 | <Zuu> | Though, I do agree on that it is a bad idea to remove the 'x' as all windows apart from the difficulty window has it. It's more if it becomes a problem that users forget to apply because the apply button is to far away. |
15:49 | <Vornicus> | Am I seeing that correctly? Do level crossings now go red whenever a train is nearby? |
15:50 | <Zuu> | Vornicus: Depends on how you place your path signals. |
15:50 | <Zuu> | Whenever a train reserve a path through the level crossing they go red. |
15:50 | <Vornicus> | So the previous signal must be far enough away. |
15:50 | <Vornicus> | Hey, works for me. |
15:53 | <Zuu> | Alberth: I don't know the name of the list widgets if they are the same or different. I think it will look cleaner if both lists have the same style unless there is a reason such as having lists of things strongly related to physical files in black. |
15:53 | <Vornicus> | Does it work for non-pb signals too? |
15:53 | <Zuu> | nope |
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15:53 | <Zuu> | Since with block signals the trains don't reserve a path and thus the crossing won't know that it should go red. |
15:54 | <Vornicus> | ok. |
15:54 | <Zuu> | I think the crossings just check for path reservations, not for trains. |
15:54 | <Zuu> | (when the path signals are used) |
15:55 | <Zuu> | Or more correctly, they probably check for both reservations and trains but only at their own tile and maybe adjacent tiles. |
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16:02 | <Alberth> | http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/new_newgrf2.png file updated |
16:02 | <Alberth> | I kind of like the different background colours |
16:03 | <Zuu> | Looks good |
16:04 | <frosch123> | http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/texts/farmtiles.txt <- andythenorth: new file in the pet project folder |
16:04 | <Zuu> | In the 2-display edition does the blue squares have a function? |
16:05 | <Alberth> | yeah, just like the current implementation, they show newgrf status |
16:05 | <Zuu> | If not, I would probably remove them also to make the lists more uniform. Having a darker colour at the inactive list could still be there to indicate that they are inactive. |
16:06 | <Zuu> | Oh ok. I have to admit I haven't tested it, only looked at your screenshots. |
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16:07 | <@peter1138> | too many frames |
16:07 | <frosch123> | hmm, why did i miss the new active/inactive captions the last two times i looked at the picture :o |
16:08 | <Zuu> | Maybe we need to make the titles flash :-p |
16:09 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: that spec looks like more than I was hoping for :) |
16:09 | <@peter1138> | marquee? |
16:09 | <Alberth> | a bid red arrow and a red star with yellow "NEW!" in it :p |
16:09 | <andythenorth> | Alberth: any particular reason you favour the 'two lists' version? |
16:10 | <Alberth> | it had the most problems that needed fixing/tweaking |
16:10 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: it is the smallest spec i could imagine, which is not an unextensible hack :) though of course it does not need implenting as a whole in the first go |
16:11 | <Alberth> | actually, I am kind of stuck on how to proceed :( |
16:11 | <frosch123> | we need a good idea where to place the buttons :s |
16:12 | <Vornicus> | From what I can tell two-lists is probably the best way to do it anyway - there's two pieces of information here, active status and load order. Having inactive things mixed into the active ones would cause confusion when trying to reorder active items. |
16:12 | <andythenorth> | it doesn't in iTunes. Millions of users.... |
16:12 | <andythenorth> | itunes is one list, with check boxes for active / not active |
16:12 | <andythenorth> | plus filter in place |
16:13 | <Alberth> | andythenorth: http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/new_newgrf1.png but I tweaked this one too :) |
16:13 | <Vornicus> | And in iTunes, the order given is a sort order, not a personal order. ...and actually that check box is kinda annoying! |
16:13 | <Alberth> | Vornicus: that's why you can sort on activation order :) |
16:14 | <andythenorth> | Alberth: the single list looks preferable to me |
16:14 | <frosch123> | hmm, it is easier to arrange the buttons in the one-list view :) |
16:15 | <andythenorth> | 'Activate' 'Deactivate' instead of 'Add' 'Remove'? |
16:15 | <Vornicus> | What I mean is, in iTunes, the order that they show up in your library is an order generated automatically. There's no conflicts to resolve by changing the order. |
16:15 | <Alberth> | frosch123: and there is a 2nd vertical scrollbar available for the options :) |
16:15 | <andythenorth> | in an iTunes playlist you control the order by drag and drop |
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16:16 | <andythenorth> | Alberth: the single list has a smaller info area. I liked the possibility of large info text... |
16:16 | <Vornicus> | And isn't the usual layout for this kind of setup available -> active, with a couple of arrow things in between? |
16:16 | <andythenorth> | only in hideous GUIs |
16:16 | <andythenorth> | I have a book somewhere which explains why those things are so wrong every time they're properly tested |
16:17 | <Alberth> | andythenorth: I should fix the music gui then too :) |
16:17 | <Zuu> | I think the main benefit with the 2-display version is that a possible AI gui remake is probably easier to do as a 2-display version as you can have several of the same AIs. That said, unless it happens at the same time it might not be worth to take that into account when designing the NewGRF GUI. |
16:18 | <frosch123> | imo the most bothersome issue with the onelist view is, that i see no room for extending. e.g. static/normal newgrfs or using the same gui for ais. those two points would also work with the twolist view, which also looks similiar to the current content download gui. however most troublesome with the twolist gui is, that there are no nice positions for the buttons :s |
16:19 | <andythenorth> | I really think the one-list GUI should replicate the content download |
16:19 | <andythenorth> | checkboxes, right hand panel...what's not to like? |
16:19 | <Alberth> | Zuu: can you explain that? I don't see the problem exactly |
16:19 | <Vornicus> | The checkboxes are hard to see. :( |
16:19 | <Zuu> | Alberth: Which problem? |
16:20 | <andythenorth> | Vornicus: that could be fixed |
16:20 | <Alberth> | Zuu: oh sorry, the benefit |
16:20 | * | andythenorth wonders if content download and newgrf gui can be combined to one uber-gui.... |
16:20 | <andythenorth> | probably horrible |
16:20 | <Vornicus> | Almost certainly horrible. |
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16:21 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: ai and newgrf might be easier |
16:21 | <Zuu> | I shouldn't take the credit for the AI thing as I think it was frosch123 who mentioned it first. |
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16:21 | <frosch123> | he, don't blame me :p |
16:21 | <Zuu> | But you wonder why AIs better work at the 2-display edition or why that is of importance for NewGRF gui? |
16:22 | <Alberth> | why you need 2 display edition for the AIs |
16:22 | <Zuu> | Let me ask the question how would you in the 1 display edition handle that you can have more than one of the same AI? |
16:22 | <Zuu> | How would I select 3 NoCAB in the 1 display edition? |
16:23 | <Zuu> | If you have a good solution for that, then I don't see any problems with using the 1 display edition for AIs as well. |
16:24 | <Alberth> | Duplicate the entry when you activate it, so you always have a de-activated as well? |
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16:25 | <Zuu> | Possible. Have to think if it is good or bad solution. |
16:25 | <frosch123> | hmm, true, with "sort by activation" by default it is not such an issue |
16:25 | <Alberth> | frosch123: what is the requirement with static/normal newgrfs? |
16:27 | <Zuu> | If we decide the 1 display edition for NewGRFs is the best one for NewGRFs, then I'm still not sure that AIs is a strong enough reason to go for another solution because it in future might give a more consistent gui. |
16:27 | <frosch123> | currently i would imagine to switch the "active" list between two sets of active grfs. the normal and the static ones. but maybe it could also work similiar to "switch palette" which might be favourable for the onelist gui |
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16:29 | <Alberth> | grfs can be either normal or static, and you chose after activation? |
16:29 | <frosch123> | anyway, what about andy's suggestion? using the onelist view, but a big description panel on the right. so both the list and the description are bigger |
16:30 | <Alberth> | widget shuffling/sizing is never a problem :) |
16:30 | <Alberth> | I can try that. |
16:31 | <frosch123> | [22:29] <Alberth> grfs can be either normal or static, and you chose after activation? <- yes, either this or that. you have to choose before activation, and static are put at the end. also not every grf can be static (which is an expensive check which might be done when pressing a button for a single file, but not for filtering the whole list) |
16:32 | <frosch123> | so well, currently i also favor the onelist view :) |
16:32 | <Alberth> | so a 'add as static' and 'add as normal |
16:32 | <Alberth> | ' button would solve the problem? |
16:32 | <frosch123> | either that, or a toggle static/non-static |
16:34 | <Alberth> | toggle may be easier |
16:34 | <andythenorth> | http://tt-foundry.com/misc/one_list_newgrf_gui.png |
16:34 | <andythenorth> | I haven't spent any time thinking about what buttons should go where |
16:34 | <frosch123> | don't get me wrong. it is not imporant to add that function, but there should be a plan how it could be done :) |
16:34 | <Zuu> | If you want to remove some text buttons you could consider using image buttons with 14-16 pixel large arrows similar to the right window here: http://www.junctioneer.net/site/resources/howto/junction/step6.png |
16:35 | <Zuu> | for moving entries up/down. |
16:36 | <frosch123> | buttons below/above the list take less space than right/left of it |
16:36 | <Zuu> | It would though take some horizontal space and if the list get the full window hight then it might get quite expansive in space to place them to the right/left. |
16:37 | <Zuu> | The benefit with image buttons would be to less buttons to read, but would take more space. |
16:37 | <Alberth> | andythenorth: you want to have the checkboxes too? it might get messy if the newgrf status is also displayed |
16:37 | <Vornicus> | arg, really hate inactive mixed with active. |
16:38 | <andythenorth> | Vornicus: what problems does it cause you? |
16:38 | <Zuu> | Why not just click on the location of the blue boxes to activate/deactivate? |
16:38 | <frosch123> | checkboxes raise the same problem of multiple ais |
16:38 | <frosch123> | and yes, with the grf status :) |
16:39 | <Vornicus> | andythenorth: well, the big one in this case is that "move up" and "move down" when I have few active grfs means I have to click those buttons a lot of times to get them in the right place. |
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16:39 | <andythenorth> | not if I've understood Alberth's proposal correctly |
16:40 | <andythenorth> | he's bouncing the active ones to the top of the list |
16:40 | <andythenorth> | Alberth: is that correct? |
16:40 | <frosch123> | so what is the point of the checkboxes then? |
16:40 | <andythenorth> | how often does order matter? |
16:40 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: there is a sorting dropdown to put them at the top, or to include them into the list |
16:40 | <andythenorth> | and is drag and drop out of the question? |
16:41 | <andythenorth> | this up/down business seems a little bit 1994 :P |
16:41 | <Alberth> | it would at best only work for the active grfs, as far as I can see at the moment |
16:42 | <Alberth> | unless 'sort' means a one time sort, and after that the user can move entries around |
16:43 | <andythenorth> | I can't remember when I last played a game where order matters? |
16:43 | <Alberth> | andythenorth: if you have sorting by activation switched on, and you activate a grf, it jumps to the end of the activated list, yes |
16:44 | <andythenorth> | that would be a bit disruptive but make sense |
16:44 | * | andythenorth can forsee problems with 1 list, but nothing's perfect :) |
16:45 | <Alberth> | it currently takes the selection along, so the list is jumping too, but perhaps I should move the selection one entry down instead |
16:45 | <andythenorth> | that would be good |
16:45 | <Zuu> | I think the 1 list is good for scrolling through the list and possible clicking at the left side of the names to activate them, but then the concept of setting load order becomes less obvious I think. |
16:46 | <Alberth> | that's why sort on activation is default |
16:46 | <andythenorth> | the only time I have to worry about load order is when newgrfs are fragile or broken :P |
16:47 | <andythenorth> | it's the kind of thing that should be hidden from players. I know there are tens of newgrfs that have these problems, but maybe it's time to force the issue? |
16:48 | <andythenorth> | A player using bananas is never going to find the obscure forum post that explains how one newgrf has to be before the other. They'll just think something is broken |
16:49 | <Alberth> | I cannot even find which trains/trucks to use with ECS :p |
16:49 | <Zuu> | If you (as player) don't want to care about activation order, then imho sorting by name might be better as the active ones would not jump away possible out of sight. |
16:49 | <andythenorth> | order is a legacy from TTDP, limited number of vehicles, and people not using cargos properly |
16:50 | <andythenorth> | also.....so I use the newgrf gui....I happen to have an internet connection available...should I get informed about updates to an newgrfs I have downloaded? |
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16:51 | <Alberth> | I believe every word of what you say, but I am not the NewGRF expert you need to convince |
16:52 | <Alberth> | I hope not |
16:52 | <Zuu> | andythenorth: I think I made a such suggestion once possible at the forums. Let me see if I find it. |
16:53 | <Zuu> | The main concern I think apart from implementing the checking and possible extra load on the server was that some people including R definitely don't want that a program go online before it has been given permision for it. |
16:53 | <andythenorth> | that makes sense |
16:55 | <Zuu> | Here is the thread: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=44582 |
16:57 | <andythenorth> | if I'm pay-for-bandwidth or something, it's just rude to go online :) |
16:58 | <Zuu> | Yep, good my cell phone is flat rate. :-) |
16:58 | <Rubidium> | we don't want to give anyone the impression that OpenTTD 'calls home' without your permission |
16:59 | <andythenorth> | so that also saves some code and GUI thinking |
17:00 | <Alberth> | gui is probably the simplest part of the problem |
17:01 | <Alberth> | I'll code your proposal tomorrow andythenorth, so we can see how it works out |
17:01 | <Alberth> | good night for now |
17:01 | <andythenorth> | the buttons in mine are in wrong places |
17:01 | <andythenorth> | good night :) |
17:01 | <Alberth> | you have < 12 hours to solve that problem :p |
17:02 | <Alberth> | nah, just kidding :) I will look into it |
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17:45 | <planetmaker> | moin |
17:45 | <planetmaker> | frosch123: your treatise on (industry) fields sounds quite nice :-) |
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18:16 | <uzver> | hi. i've got a problem with autoupdating my buses... it says i don't have money but i do have many of them :( what's wrong? |
18:17 | <frosch123> | it does not spend all money on autoreplace/renew. you can specify in advanced settings which amount to leave for your constructions |
18:18 | <uzver> | hmm.. will look at it now |
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18:24 | <uzver> | yes. it works now. thank you... costs was fluctuating near that 200 000 EU limit |
18:24 | <uzver> | so i was no luck to update them :) |
18:24 | <uzver> | has no* |
18:26 | <__ln__> | @seen peter1138 |
18:26 | <@DorpsGek> | __ln__: peter1138 was last seen in #openttd 2 hours, 17 minutes, and 16 seconds ago: <peter1138> marquee? |
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18:32 | <andythenorth> | @seen the_light |
18:32 | <@DorpsGek> | andythenorth: I have not seen the_light. |
18:33 | <andythenorth> | good night :P |
18:33 | <andythenorth> | time fo zzzzzz |
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18:42 | <uzver> | gn |
18:42 | <uzver> | interesting... how i can use few trains on just one line... |
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18:43 | <PeterT> | planetmaker: moin? |
18:45 | <frosch123> | PeterT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moin |
18:45 | <PeterT> | frosch123: I know what it means |
18:45 | <PeterT> | but...morning? |
18:45 | <PeterT> | at this hour? |
18:46 | <frosch123> | read that wiki article |
18:46 | <__ln__> | because you won't, i'll tell you: it doesn't mean "morning". |
18:47 | <PeterT> | I just did. |
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19:26 | <Eddi|zuHause> | why do english people say "Zet Zet Zet Zet ..." when they sleep? |
19:30 | -!- | last_evolution [~last_evol@r5ba58.net.upc.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving] |
19:30 | <bryjen> | its the sound of snoring |
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19:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but snoring sounds more like chchchch over here... |
19:48 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/texts/farmtiles.txt http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/diffs/customisablefarmtiles.diff Do I get a test grf when I am awake again? :) |
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19:52 | * | uzver >_> wall whie learning how to use junctions and signals |
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20:03 | <frosch123> | night |
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21:01 | <Nite_Owl> | Hello all |
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21:10 | <DDR> | Hi. |
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21:11 | <Nite_Owl> | Hello DDR |
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22:23 | <Vornicus> | Arg, one button I want so much: "load until another train that will load arrives" |
22:23 | <Vornicus> | or something |
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23:09 | * | DDR nods. |
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--- | Log | closed Sun May 09 00:00:32 2010 |