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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-05-08

---Logopened Sat May 08 00:00:31 2010
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02:15<__ln__>okay, here's the non-nicotine patch:
02:16<__ln__>morning, señor
02:17<Vornicus>Yay patch!
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02:37<andythenorth>so the buy menu has a text label 'speed' and the vehicle info window has 'Max. speed'
02:37*andythenorth wonders if it's a deliberate inconsistency?
02:37<andythenorth>'Max. speed' everywhere would suit my purpose better :)
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02:57<Terkhen>good morning
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02:59<andythenorth>hi Terkhen
03:02*andythenorth has to think about a few things "(
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03:11<andythenorth>Terkhen: do you use cargodist in your FIRS games?
03:12<andythenorth>ho hum
03:12<Terkhen>I have never used cargodist
03:12<andythenorth>me neither
03:12<andythenorth>FIRS might be seriously flawed with cargodist :(
03:14<Terkhen>I remember reading something about all supplies wanting to go to the same industry
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03:15<Terkhen>is that the problem?
03:15<andythenorth>stuff like that
03:15*andythenorth is depressed about FIRS and does something else instead
03:17<Terkhen>IMO cargodist should give NewGRFs a way of deciding which cargos use that system and which ones don't
03:17<andythenorth>that would be interesting
03:18<andythenorth>I should play a cargo dist game to test FIRS, but games take time :o
03:18<andythenorth>I only have time to test trunk with FIRS
03:19<Terkhen>but adding NewGRF support in patches is kind of tricky: you could end up with grfs that support cargodist and not trunk and viceversa
03:19<Terkhen>and that situation is not desirable at all
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03:58<andythenorth>when I've asked for feedback on the's bad behaviour to do a nitpick reply to that feedback
03:58<andythenorth>yes / no?
04:11<Alberth>do you expect to get better feedback by doing that? if not, I'd just ignore it and/or learn from it that some people have a different angle than expected
04:12<Alberth>writing a negative response tends to make you feel better, but rarely turns into something positive
04:13*andythenorth nitpicks Alberth :P
04:13*Alberth ignores andythenorth :D
04:14<andythenorth>I'm not going to nitpick feedback. It discourages feedback
04:14<Alberth>good response :)
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04:26<andythenorth>this is what I wanted to nitpick because it confuses me:
04:26<andythenorth>". It's never a good idea to have an effective dependency on a single type of cargo (or in this case cargo group) for almost all industries"
04:26<andythenorth>I wonder what the evidence for this is?
04:26<andythenorth>and I don't understand this:
04:26<andythenorth>"Even more so considering how little you can influence where cargo actually goes"
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04:27<andythenorth>I thought cargo goes where the vehicles take it?
04:28<Alberth>asking for clarification is not nitpicking imho
04:29<Alberth>perhaps he assumes cargo-dist?
04:29<andythenorth>"even with Cargodist, though that does do a far better job at distributing the supplies"
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04:30<andythenorth>distributing the supplies is the job of the player? I'm properly baffled, not just being mean because someone doesn't like my work
04:30<Terkhen>I don't understand it either
04:30<andythenorth>It's a long and thoughtful piece of feedback, but I don't understand a lot of it
04:31<Alberth>I'd ask for clarification, I see nothing wrong with that
04:31<Alberth>likely he assumes some context that he didn't mention.
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04:54<nighthawk_c_m>Any 32 bpp guru online?
04:57<andythenorth>nighthawk_c_m: ...someone else wanted to collaborate on FIRS german translations, I need to send you his pm
04:57<nighthawk_c_m>Oh cool, sure
04:58<nighthawk_c_m>I will continue tonight a bit on the translation - how can we toss the translatred file to you?
04:59<andythenorth>what is your forum nick?
05:01<andythenorth>also planetmaker / Terkhen....the FIRS translation framework changed? So does nighthawk_c_m need new files to put the translation into?
05:01<Terkhen>the 7F_any file changed, yes
05:02<Terkhen>and some strings duplicated in many places were merged
05:02<nighthawk_c_m>nighthawk_c_m is my forum nick
05:03<Terkhen>nighthawk_c_m: you should download the new 7F_any.pnfo file and move your translated strings there (remember to change the LANG IDs in the new file too)
05:03<nighthawk_c_m>ok, I will take a look later on - right now I am quite pissed that I can't get that dumb 32bpp stuff to work in a patched game client
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05:10<andythenorth>nighthawk_c_m: pm sent
05:11<andythenorth>some of Kogut's suggestions are well thought out
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05:12<andythenorth>is it bonkers that (Arctic, Tropic) towns only require 1 unit of food per month? I kind of like that...
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05:16<nighthawkcm>Since you can't decide the distribution on stations it is ok I think
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05:17<nighthawkcm>Otherwise you would have to scale the need according to town size - as a result of that you would need to be able to accordingly set up trains and tell stations on how to feed the trains - or have trains go from town to town and partially unload
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05:30<andythenorth>that's exactly what I think :)
05:30<andythenorth>stuff like town population should be decoupled from demand for food
05:33<nighthawkcm>Yeah, otherwise it gets way too complicated - and under all circumstances the game has to be still somewhat newbie friendly
05:34<andythenorth>that's why FIRS also decouples primary production from delivered supplies
05:35<andythenorth>(A) the game does it for towns already, it's a nice mechanic (B) there could be horrible implications if production depended too closely on delivered supplies
05:40<nighthawkcm>^^ Such mechanics can be very complicated I guess - too complicated to work unless you create a scenario where they can work
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05:47<OwenS>"The electorate have invented an instrument of excruciating torture for the Liberal Democrats". Hehe
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05:51<goblin_>i've got quite a problem with openttd
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05:52<goblin_>does it have problems to start when its started with a link (under linux, a hardlink)
05:52<Terkhen>what problem?
05:52<goblin_>it crashes, acting like a forkbomb
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05:52<goblin_>30k processes and more until i restart, 'killall openttd' does not really help
05:53<SmatZ>hmm did goblin_ find out secret backdoor?
05:53*Zuu groans at an assert that only happens sometimes when an AI crash but not always.
05:53<goblin_>when i start the self compiled binary directly, it starts normally, but if i start it with the hardlink, it crashes
05:54<Progman>goblin_: what do you get if you run it via strace?
05:54<goblin_>the precompiled packages (ubuntu repository, deb-package from homepage) ahve the same problem, because of that i compiled it myself
05:54<goblin_>Zuu: its nearly a virgin, my openttd, ive compiled it yesterday and have no AI's installed
05:55<goblin_>i'll test
05:55<Progman>"strace ./openttd"
05:55<Zuu>goblin_: My groan was not directed at you. The assert Im trying to track down only happens for AI devs or other who use a hidden AI dev feature.
05:56<SmatZ>goblin_: did you read this part of readme/known_bugs?
05:57<SmatZ>also, there is hardly a difference between "hard linking" and "copying" the binary (for the executed program)
05:57<Zuu>It's just that it would be easier to fix if I could make a tiny AI script that cause the assert to happen rather than having to use an AI with several thousand lines of code to reproduce the assert.
05:57<SmatZ>hello PlanetMaker
05:58<goblin_>yes, i know it, but it does not start, and when i start the local binary compiled by myself, it runs normally, so i thought it was another issue
05:58<planetmaker>hey SmatZ :-)
05:58<planetmaker>give me a climate for a long, narrow map for the PS :-)
05:59<SmatZ>if the compiled binary works fine, it might be bug in your distro's binary
05:59<goblin_>Progman: my compiled file works normal, i try it with the hardlink
05:59<SmatZ>planetmaker: usually we play Arctic climate, but then there is even less space because of the hills... so could we try Tropic?
06:00<planetmaker>ok :-) Tropic it is then
06:00<goblin_>SmatZ: I thought that too, but I have the same problem with the .deb-package from the official download page
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06:00<SmatZ>goblin_: did you try "SDL_AUDIODRIVER=pulse openttd" ?
06:00<SmatZ>so you didn't read the link I posted
06:01<planetmaker>hm... unsing variety distribution on 64x2048 looks plain ugly
06:02<goblin_>yes i did, but i'm running strace at the moment, i'll try this right after
06:03<goblin_>Progman: where to paste the result?
06:05<planetmaker>hm... didn't the area tool once work for lower / raise terrain, too?
06:06<SmatZ>planetmaker: are you using clean binary?
06:06<planetmaker>hm, it does.
06:06<planetmaker>but not in scenario editor. I use clean nightly compile
06:06<SmatZ>oh, that
06:06<SmatZ>yes, by design :)
06:07<planetmaker>You can area-rise ingame, but not in scenario editor?
06:07<SmatZ>there are other tools for that in SE
06:07<planetmaker>That sounds like a design goal reversed...
06:07<Terkhen>you can change raise/lower size manually
06:07<SmatZ>it's easier to create random-looking terrain in SE
06:07<SmatZ>(reminds me I wanted to improve that)
06:08<planetmaker>Terkhen: yes. But only tile per tile
06:08<planetmaker>not drag the tool
06:08<planetmaker>but I can drag level land
06:08<planetmaker>which is quite stuipd
06:09<planetmaker>or how do I _manually_ create a nice-looking mountain range?
06:09<Terkhen>I agree, yes :P
06:09<Progman>goblin_: so, you posted the output on
06:10<planetmaker>so... I'm not missing the area-rise / area-lower tool in SE? :-(
06:11<Terkhen>I usually raise/lower a single tile and then use level :/
06:11<planetmaker>[12:07] <SmatZ> there are other tools for that in SE <-- which do you mean?
06:11<goblin_>finally, first time i piped the wrong output :-D and the system nearly hangs up when i do that, but now its done
06:11<SmatZ>planetmaker: you can choose the size of area to terraform
06:12<SmatZ>also, raise+level :)
06:12<goblin_>SmatZ: enter "SDL_AUDIODRIVER=pulse openttd" directly into the shell?
06:12<planetmaker>ah.... that :-)
06:12<planetmaker>I missed that. still... why not drag?
06:12<SmatZ>goblin_: yes .. probably you need to replace openttd by path to your hardlink
06:12<planetmaker>thanks though :-)
06:12<Progman>goblin_: what does one of the childs do?
06:13<goblin_>SmatZ: Sorry, never mind, reading is harder than i thought m(
06:13<Zuu>Finding out why a global var has the wrong value is .... fun :-)
06:13<goblin_>Progman: I don't know, use memory?
06:14<Progman>goblin_: I mean run a strace on the childs aswell ;)
06:14*SmatZ wonders if there is any fork() in OTTD code at all
06:15<goblin_>SmatZ: it's the same, plenty of processes
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: autosave?
06:15<goblin_>how do I rum strace on the children?
06:15<goblin_>in a new shell?
06:15<planetmaker>thanks SmatZ
06:16<Progman>goblin_: -f
06:16<Progman>goblin_: or with a new shell, yes
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06:17<planetmaker>SmatZ: actually I meant a different drag :-)
06:17<planetmaker>Not like a pencil but like just draw a rect and then operate on that
06:18<Progman>goblin_: do I need to ask btw. why you are using a hardlink? ;)
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06:18<andythenorth>planetmaker / Ammler coop games prove that longer trains != better yes/no?
06:18<planetmaker>andythenorth: neither. Just a matter of taste
06:19*andythenorth comes over all Toyota about something
06:19<OwenS>Longer trains are slower to accelerate but more efficient with cargo capacity, assuming same number of engines
06:19<planetmaker>shorter trains can help, though, to rise station rating slightly: trains visit stations more often
06:19<planetmaker>but that's next to negligible
06:19<goblin_>Progman: because I have compiled it and placed a link in my ~/bin folder so i can start it directly with 'openttd' and have noch to run './openttd/openttd-1.0.1/bin/openttd' ;-)
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06:20<Progman>and what about using a symlink?
06:20<planetmaker>for primary industries shorter trains do make sense though, at least in the beginning; otherwise you don't ship the cargo
06:20<Progman>and/or changing the PATH var
06:20<andythenorth>I guess there are so many variables
06:20<planetmaker>but that then depends on the industry's behaviour
06:21<planetmaker>it will feel unserviced too quickly, if you load a 32-tile train on a 32t coal mine
06:21<Progman>goblin_: anyway, have you fetched the strace output of a child of openttd?
06:21<andythenorth>I only build one or two platforms at an industry, and I don't have more total train capacity on the route than output, so more smaller trains keeps a better service
06:21<planetmaker>in general I'd say: except for very low production counts, the train length doesn't matter
06:21<goblin_>Progman: same problem with symlink
06:22<planetmaker>andythenorth: so do we play, too.
06:22<planetmaker>except for industries late game where that doesn't suffice anymore
06:22<andythenorth>also I don't use complex junctions, pre-signal wizardry etc. so smaller trains leads to less junction blocking
06:22<planetmaker>or secondary ones with a HIGH turn-over
06:22<goblin_>Progman: yes, i ran strace -f and i have 11756 lines in my logfile
06:23<Progman>show is in
06:23<planetmaker>andythenorth: you cannot service a 2000t coal mine with two tracks. Nearly irrespective of train length ;-)
06:23<andythenorth>you can if you accept a low % transported :P
06:23<planetmaker>and "usual" train length which we use are 2..7 for cargo and up to maybe 14 for inter-city passengers
06:24<planetmaker>and secondary goods transport
06:24*andythenorth hmms
06:24<goblin_>i think it was a bad idea to copy-paste the whole 11756 lines in my browser ...
06:24<goblin_>okay he's done, a moment
06:25<andythenorth>I was just thinking about the assertion "The game is designed around the concept, that more cargo/load is better"
06:25<andythenorth>which I don't think holds
06:25<andythenorth>but anyway, these pixels won't paint themselves
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06:26<andythenorth>fonsinchen: hi hi :)
06:27<andythenorth>it seems some of my assumptions about FIRS gameplay might clash with cargodist :o
06:27<andythenorth>or so players are telling me
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06:27<goblin_>Progman: the browser refused to send, but the logfile hast 7,6 MB plain ASCII text ...
06:27<SmatZ>[12:15:18] <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: autosave? <== it runs in separate thread, not process
06:27<Progman>only past the first 1000 lines
06:28<SmatZ>fork() is used when running dedicated server in background...
06:28<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: sorry, then i don't know the difference...
06:29<planetmaker>hm... how do I "paint" rain forrest (=green) tiles in the SE?
06:29*andythenorth tries to puzzle out a hack so that industries somehow require passenger service (for workers)
06:30<Eddi|zuHause>like you put desert, just with ctrl?
06:30<planetmaker>ah... nvm
06:30<planetmaker>quite intuitive :-(
06:31<andythenorth>what do you guys think about industries 'needing' workers (maybe as production boost or something)
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06:31<Alberth>plain industries call them passengers
06:31<goblin_>this is the 1000 lines tail, quite unspectacular
06:32<andythenorth>Alberth: yup, surprising number of industry tiles accept passengers
06:32<nighthawkcm>Any 32bpp guru here?
06:32<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it might be interesting, but you'd burn an incoming and an outgoing cargo for every industry this way
06:32<Alberth>but often not in a way that is useful for the player, it seems
06:33<andythenorth>been wondering about trying to look at nearby station cargo or something nuts like that
06:33<Terkhen>I don't like it
06:33<andythenorth>Pikka did it by brute force with location restrictions
06:33<Terkhen>I think it overcomplicates things
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>i think MB planned something like "workers" for his hypothetical industry set
06:33<Progman>goblin_: "#! /bin/sh\ncd /opt/free/games/op"...
06:33<planetmaker>andythenorth: I don't think industries should need workers
06:33<andythenorth>me neither
06:33<Progman>goblin_: do you start openttd via a script?
06:33<Zuu>yay, reproduction in the small AI, now I just have to narrow it down as much as I can.
06:34<andythenorth>planetmaker: it seems Chris Sawyer thought they did though :)
06:34<fonsinchen>hi andythenorth
06:34<goblin_>no, i have a hardlink in my ~home/bin directory
06:34<planetmaker>andythenorth: unless they also supply passengers, you have a perfect passenger sink
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it's not very consequent in the original industries
06:35<planetmaker>which gives the idea of the industry shipping green food... as in the novel which name I forgot
06:35<Terkhen>yeah, I'd assume that workers live near the industry, even if it is placed in the middle of nowhere
06:35<planetmaker>some association I don't fancy
06:35<andythenorth>workers have legs
06:35<andythenorth>or a bike
06:36<goblin_>Progman: there is an old installation O.o
06:36<fonsinchen>what exactly is the clash between cargodist and firs?
06:36<andythenorth>we also don't concern ourselves with how industries get fuel, electricity, water etc.
06:36<goblin_>i purged the packages from the repo and from the deb-package before i compiled ... wtf?
06:37<andythenorth>fonsinchen: I'm not exactly sure. By design FIRS requires some routes to industries to have very low cargo volumes and use reverse-feeders.
06:38<andythenorth>apparently this causes link-graph issues
06:38<goblin_>Progman: that seems to be the problem, I rm'ed this directory and now the symlink doesn't start because he demands it ... but i shurely have not linked it to THIS files because i even didn't know anymore that i had them ...
06:39<fonsinchen>very low cargo volumes might indeed be a problem if you translate that into very infrequent service.
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06:40<goblin_>strange, but then it's the fault of my system ... he won't create anymore links without ...
06:40<fonsinchen>That's the old problem about minimum and/or default moving average length
06:40<andythenorth>I can imagine the issue :)
06:41<goblin_>very strange, but when i start the binary directly (./openttd) it starts ...
06:41<fonsinchen>I thought I had solved that by making the moving average length dependent on distance, but obviously that's not the whole thing.
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06:45*andythenorth ponders making passengers "Engineering Supplies"
06:45<goblin_>Progman: okay, it was a fault with my $PATH-Variable, i've got a very old installation in /usr/local/bin which is before my ~/bin in the variable ... 'whereis openttd' would have said that to me if i had asked m(
06:45<goblin_>Progman: I'm very sorry for wasing your time ...
06:46<goblin_>now I only get: "Error: No available language packs (invalid versions?)"
06:46<planetmaker>andythenorth: you mean to replace ES by PAX?
06:46<planetmaker>hm... might be an idea
06:46<planetmaker>what industries produce ES?
06:47<andythenorth>I mean to have an industry that converts PAX to ES :P
06:47<Terkhen>that would make the game less machine shop centered
06:47<andythenorth>planetmaker and then we're back to your concern about green food
06:48<planetmaker>please don't make an industry which only accepts passengers.
06:48<planetmaker>that's IMHO very bad
06:48<andythenorth>"Workers Camp"
06:48<planetmaker>make it an add-on
06:48<andythenorth>In: PAX, Food. Out: PAX, ENSP
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06:50<andythenorth>Terkhen: I'm going to add an industry that converts Lumber & Chemicals to ENSP. That should make the machine shop less the centre
06:50<andythenorth>and also increase focus on oil
06:50<Terkhen>I like that idea
06:51<andythenorth>I shall make it so :)
06:52<planetmaker>yep, that sounds good
06:53<andythenorth>the other thing that would reduce emphasis on ENSP is sorting out town cargos :)
06:53<andythenorth>I'm not going to transport goods now that I know it's pointless
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07:04<planetmaker>loool :-)
07:04<planetmaker>andythenorth: I know one placement restriction for industries: farms in the desert look quite funny
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07:05<planetmaker>and the sand and gravel pit need different desert sprites
07:06<planetmaker>a lake right there looks out-of-place, too
07:06<andythenorth>I see your point about the lake
07:06<andythenorth>however drawing quarries is dull :P
07:06<andythenorth>the find them weird?
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>the saudis created farms in the desert
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>the fields looked circular ;=)
07:07<andythenorth>I've seen similar when I flew over Africa
07:08<andythenorth>I could cluster them near a water plant?
07:08<andythenorth>location restrictions are the wrong solution
07:08<andythenorth>being able to plant fields with custom graphics is the correct solution :)
07:08<Eddi|zuHause>so... why haven't you implemented that yet? :p
07:09<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: dunno, I just sit around doing nothing :P
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07:09<andythenorth>meanwhile someone magically stacks up a lot of newgrf commits :P
07:10<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds exactly like what i am doing ;)
07:10<andythenorth>stacking up newgrf commits?
07:10<planetmaker>andythenorth: well, yes, that makes sense with the water plant
07:10<planetmaker>May I then nevertheless propose to use the ambient ground tile?
07:11<andythenorth>you may even code it if you wish :P
07:11<andythenorth>add a ticket, it's been irritating me for a while.
07:11<andythenorth>put it in the 0.2 release queue, I'll see if I get to ti
07:11<andythenorth>it /s
07:12<planetmaker>no rush. But yeah... just putting it on some list might make sense :-)
07:14<planetmaker> <-- they kinda fight for the bit arrable space ;-)
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07:16<andythenorth>oh well
07:16<planetmaker>hm... I have a water tanker wagon with a capacity of 18t of steel :-P
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07:17*planetmaker consider to NOT use tropical refurbishment set with FIRS
07:18<andythenorth>feel free
07:18<andythenorth>should I know more than I do about bounding boxes for industry tiles?
07:19<planetmaker>hard to tell ;-)
07:19<andythenorth>well keep your eye out for sprite sorter issues :|
07:19<andythenorth>I have no idea if what I'm doing is correct
07:19<andythenorth>FooBar sliced some industries very precisely and others very broadly.
07:20<andythenorth>both seem to work
07:27*andythenorth remembers the sprite aligner
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07:31<andythenorth>*very* useful :)
07:33<Ammler> <-- does mountain before airport influence landing?
07:38<planetmaker>it doesn't
07:38<planetmaker>but it's a nice screenshot ;-)
07:39<Ammler>[13:08] <andythenorth> <-- doesn't open in the browser, either fix your server or add extension
07:40<andythenorth>Ammler: try now
07:40<andythenorth>or get a not-broken browser :P
07:41<Ammler>nah :-P
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07:43<nighthawkcm>any 32bpp guru here?
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07:44<planetmaker>nighthawkcm: I guess still not :-)
07:44<Ammler>there are 4 8bpp gurus here, is that fine enough?
07:44<planetmaker>And it helps to ask the question, not the meta-question
07:44<planetmaker>(see topic)
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07:45<planetmaker>that said: the 32bpp need to go in the data dir.
07:45<nighthawkcm>Hmm... not really, I just don't get it why the 32bpp stuff works with the extra zomm client but not with any other patched client, all I can get to work is the menue bar ...
07:45<planetmaker>And in the cfg you have to set the blitter to 32bpp-optimized
07:45<nighthawkcm>I have all that done
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07:45<planetmaker>other than that: my knowledge on that subject is purely theoretical ;-)
07:45<Ammler>nobody uses 32bpp without zoom
07:46<nighthawkcm>The zoom is worthless in my oppinion - thats why I want to use it with a different client patch compilation
07:46<nighthawkcm>If 32bpp is coupled with the zoom its kinda sense free
07:48<Ammler>nighthawkcm: but it works unpatched?
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07:49<Ammler>which patch do you try to apply additonally?
07:49<nighthawkcm>worthless is the wrong expression, I don't use it - hmm.. I think I had gotten it to work unpatched, it worked with the 32bpp zoom client - which basically only has additional Z1 and Z2 sprites
07:49<nighthawkcm>I am playing with chill cores patch pack
07:49<nighthawkcm>but it won't work with cargodist with sprinkles either
07:50<planetmaker>does it work in plain trunk or 32bpp zoom-level patch?
07:50<planetmaker>if you don't know: try it. If yes: complain to patch pack author
07:51<nighthawkcm>I doubt that a sprite is related to a patch
07:51<Ammler>apply the single patches with tests until you find the "bad" patch
07:51<planetmaker>nighthawkcm: if you use patches, the "I doubt" is bad. You have to prove that it is NOT any of those patches
07:51<nighthawkcm>Haha - I have no freaking idea how to do that
07:53<planetmaker>it's part of the things to usually do when having bugs with patch (packs): test the trunk version. And then test each patch separately
07:53<planetmaker>if it's not a trunk bug: no need to bother others than the patch (pack) authors.
07:53<nighthawkcm>Well, I base my doubt on logic - If I have a substructure like ottd - and I exchange graphic a with graphic b everything is supposed to work fine if the graphic is coded correctly - see newgrfs - and 32bpp png's are replacing the 8bpp pcx data - there should be no connection at all with the rest of the game structure unless I want the extra zoom levels
07:54<planetmaker>patches usually are only supported by them. And not telling that you have a problem with a patched version ... oh well. Can be quite annoying to find that out only later
07:54<planetmaker>nighthawkcm: it's a sufficiently complex thing. :-) And if you don't know how to test these things. Be VERY carful with your logic there
07:54<planetmaker>it's not up to us to prove you wrong, but you to prove us that your assumptions are right
07:55<planetmaker>it's a not-supported version you use, after all
07:55<nighthawkcm>Well, ottd is supposed to be a game that can be used by most people - not a seperate small group
07:55<planetmaker>yes. But not modded versions
07:55<planetmaker>if you mod, you have to show that your problems are not caused by the patches
07:55<nighthawkcm>Well, then the bomb will go up when cargodist makes it into trunk one day :-P
07:55<planetmaker>so either test whether your problem exists in trunk or let it be
07:56<planetmaker>nighthawkcm: then it's a problem of the cargodist author.
07:56<planetmaker>Then post there
07:56<nighthawkcm>should I test with latest stable or nightly?
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07:57<planetmaker>whatever you like. Nightly is usually 'better' as it might have more fixes and is the place where development goes on
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08:01<nighthawkcm>Ok, I copied all the *.tar files from the 32bpp fullzoom version to a openttd install of the latest nightly - won't work - I only get the opengfx graphics
08:02<nighthawkcm>and ingame only the userbar is now the 32bpp version ...
08:03<nighthawkcm>I even get the userbar to run under the patched client - but the rest won't work - leading to the assumption that the whole 32bpp bundle that can be found via the zoom project only works with the zoom project .... :-/
08:07<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly sure that's exactly what it said on the page you downloaded it from...
08:10<planetmaker>andythenorth: which industries use callback 28 (construction callback)?
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08:10<nighthawkcm>Thats another point - I sometimes find the install instructions / explanations a bit short and confusing to find - in the 32bpp section 90% is about the extra zoom - so is the wikki
08:11<planetmaker>[14:03] <nighthawkcm> I even get the userbar to run under the patched client - but the rest won't work - leading to the assumption that the whole 32bpp bundle that can be found via the zoom project only works with the zoom project .... :-/ <-- yes, that's the fact.
08:11<planetmaker>and that's being said in multiple places, I'm sure
08:11<nighthawkcm>at least it seems so too me which in return is very frustrating
08:11<planetmaker>nighthawkcm: you describe / experience exactly the biggest problem of the 32bpp thing: it's all for a single patch which uses some dubious methods to introduce the zoom levels
08:12<nighthawkcm>ok, so where do I find a bundle of 32bpp graphics thata ctually work with the game without a patch?
08:12<planetmaker>I don't think they really exist
08:13<nighthawkcm>hmm... well they do have to as the ez patch adds two lower zoom levels - thus the standard view exists too, as far as I understood it thats the so called z0 png's
08:13<nighthawkcm>and z1 and z2 are the extra zooms
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08:16<nighthawkcm>What did you mean with dubious code planetmaker?
08:18<planetmaker>they treat the (new) zoom-levels differently than the existing ones
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08:25<andythenorth>Yexo: your patch to make industry var A7 available during cb28 appears to work
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08:31<andythenorth>how do I do backwards compatibility in a newgrf?
08:32<planetmaker>action7: conditionally use code A or code B
08:32<andythenorth>can that check the revision number of the game?
08:33<andythenorth> is down for me
08:34<andythenorth>but not the rest of you it seems
08:35<Eddi|zuHause>seems to work here
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08:37<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: thanks
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08:41<Mazur>pm: Can you, to help test a switch, raise the train limit in Coop, please? avdg built a test track, but can't test it without trains.
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08:53<yorick>how does openttd autodetect palette?
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09:05<planetmaker>andythenorth: firs.grf:1044: Warning: 9 of 4992 pixels (0%) are pure white
09:05<planetmaker>firs.grf:1051: Warning: 2 of 1984 pixels (0%) are pure white
09:05<Ammler>[14:53] <yorick> how does openttd autodetect palette? <-- it doesn't
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09:06<andythenorth>planetmaker: thanks
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09:11<Eddi|zuHause>yorick: it detects whether you have dos or windows grfs by md5sum, and then it assumes that palette for all newgrfs
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>yorick: but you can override that by command line parameter -i, i believe
09:11<yorick>ah thanks :)
09:13<andythenorth>finding white pixels is a chore
09:14<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: it comes from the .obg
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: technical detail ;)
09:15<+glx>andythenorth: it's just a warning so you can know if you have wrong offsets in the image
09:16<Rubidium>glx: but with it some colour/palette conversions "fail"
09:23<andythenorth>planetmaker: fixed
09:29<planetmaker>andythenorth: it does tell you exactly the sprite. So... it's actually not that hard. Just tedious
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09:42*planetmaker is pissed off by the industry location permissibility callback
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09:45<andythenorth>for why?
09:45<planetmaker> <-- any idea why forests are still built in the desert? Or for that matter at all?
09:46<andythenorth>have you enabled cb28?
09:47<planetmaker>IIRC yes
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09:52<planetmaker>I think I see the problem
09:52<planetmaker>callback is already implemented... date checking
09:52<planetmaker>thus it is overwritten
09:53<planetmaker>hm... or?
09:53<planetmaker>I think I activated the wrong callback :-P
09:56<planetmaker>yes. Thanks, andythenorth
09:56<planetmaker>would you like me to commit the "forests not in desert" change?
09:58<frosch123>is there a date plantation instead?
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09:59<planetmaker>frosch123: that's another industry. But would you make plantation in the desert? And not somewhat where there's at least some water (the green area?)
10:00<planetmaker>and what's a "date plantation"?
10:00<frosch123>the dictionary told me "date" for "Dattel"
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10:03<planetmaker>even those I'd put on the green ground - or near a water well.
10:03<asilv>pruduction rate 30 dates/month?
10:03<planetmaker>but that's something more advanced not yet introduced
10:06<andythenorth>planetmaker: the game should be prevented from building these industries in desert, but the player should be allowed if they wish
10:06<andythenorth>for that we need FS3822
10:06<planetmaker>hm, ok. That's not in my (simple) mod yet
10:07<andythenorth>that's why I've left location stuff out
10:07<andythenorth>I'm hoping that 3822 hits trunk, then I'll ship location code in a few months when enough players have it
10:08<andythenorth>perhaps frosch123 could help :D
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10:14<planetmaker>andythenorth: where are the values for that var documented?
10:15<planetmaker>ah... found it
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10:18*planetmaker wonders what happens, if I query a non-existant variable
10:19<andythenorth>game crashes
10:19<andythenorth>or so it seemed when I tried it
10:19<frosch123>[16:03] <planetmaker> even those I'd put on the green ground - or near a water well. <- maybe they can only be planted on map creation, not during game
10:19<planetmaker>it fails
10:19<planetmaker>so they're still build everywhere
10:19<andythenorth>no industry built?
10:19<andythenorth>ah ok
10:19<planetmaker>and renum complains
10:19<andythenorth>but no crash?
10:19<planetmaker>yes, industries are built
10:20<planetmaker>like normal
10:20<planetmaker>like now
10:20<planetmaker>frosch123: you mean forests or date plantations only be placed upon map creation with that restriction? Or...?
10:21<frosch123>you complained that they shall not suddenly appear in desert. so, they have to be there since the beginning
10:22<andythenorth>I'm going to ship my solution
10:22<andythenorth>*once* var A7 is available :P
10:23<planetmaker>frosch123: yes, but also the automatic industry generation should IMHO not build them in the desert.
10:23<planetmaker>andythenorth: you have already implemented that?!
10:23<andythenorth>that's why I need var A7 :P
10:23<andythenorth>planetmaker: nope
10:24<andythenorth>I'm going to ship my solution *once* (a) var A7 is available (b) I've coded the nfo (c) var A7 has been in trunk for a sufficient period
10:24<andythenorth>is that more accurate?
10:24<planetmaker>hm, ok. But if you don't like non-desert forests now it I spent like 4 hours for nothing... alas
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10:25<andythenorth>no, you just solved (b) for forests and other desert industries, and you can save the diff :)
10:31*andythenorth feels bad and sends planetmaker a cookie :o
10:37<CIA-6>OpenTTD: smatz * r19768 /trunk/src/clear_cmd.cpp: -Fix: half-desert tiles would never revert back to clear tiles
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10:44<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r19769 /trunk/src/ (landscape.cpp saveload/afterload.cpp tile_map.h): -Fix [FS#3820]: MV_VOID tiles shall have no tropic zone.
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10:47<planetmaker>he :-P SmatZ took ownership of the bug and frosch does the commit ;-)
10:48<frosch123>yeah, we started both, but luckily we fixed different bugs
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10:58<andythenorth>so I have sprite sorter issues :|
10:59<yorick>oh no
10:59<andythenorth>I need to understand bounding boxes better
11:00<OwenS>Oh wow... the Lib Dem HQ has now been surrounded by people supporting electoral reform
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11:01<Sacro>we need PR
11:01<OwenS>Sacro: Which is what they are protesting for. And what the Lib Dems want :p
11:02<frosch123>andythenorth: most likely you do not have sprite sorter issues, but issues with sprites extending the tiles
11:02<Sacro>OwenS: yes
11:02<andythenorth>frosch123: sounds plausible
11:02<Sacro>i'm a lib dem voter and am pissed they didn't get 20-25% of the seats
11:03<andythenorth>so when can a sprite extend a tile and when can't it?
11:03<OwenS>Sacro: As am I. I'm also pissed that my vote is basically useless because I'm in a rock solid Labour constituency...
11:03<frosch123>when drawing the landscape tiles are only drawn if their groundtile and some 100 pixels above intersect with the area to be redrawn
11:03<Sacro>hehe, we had a major LD swing
11:03<Sacro>got it down to > 650 votes
11:03<frosch123>so if you have stuff in the spritelayout of a tile, which extends the groundsprite to left or right, it will glitch
11:04<andythenorth>so I should just slice it in two?
11:04<andythenorth>and use two tiles?
11:04<OwenS>Sacro: Here it was Lab 42.8%, Con 25.9%, LD 16.1%
11:04<OwenS>LD actually lost here to the conservatives
11:04<frosch123>likely, does it start glitching at the vertical axis of the tile border?
11:05<Sacro>39% LAB 37% LD 13% CON
11:05<andythenorth>frosch123: yes
11:05<OwenS>Oh yeah... and 4.4% BNP, which is annoying
11:06<frosch123>yeah, then you have to cut it, and include it in two tiles
11:06<OwenS>Our neighbouring constituencies were interesting... One went LAB->CON, another went (very strongly!) LAB->LD
11:07<frosch123>though you may skip the cutting if you just draw it for both tiles
11:11<andythenorth>frosch123: repeat it with different offsets?
11:12<frosch123>include it in both spritelayout
11:13<frosch123>draw the sprite from both tiles (in the same position)
11:13<andythenorth>I'll slice it :)
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11:35<andythenorth>is 'alt' considered an available key in the game?
11:37<andythenorth>ctrl would do
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11:37<Zuu>Alt is used by many window managers in Linux
11:38<andythenorth>suggestion for industry mini-map: ctrl-click on one industry type to disable all others
11:38<Zuu>At worst case it could even get triggered by Alt Gr which would cause even more problems.
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11:39*Zuu hate programs that trigger hotkeys when you try to type something that involves Alt Gr
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11:41<Zuu>Hmm, is it just my Spotify that acts strange after the upgrade? Even songs that I have localy freeze several seconds.
11:44<frosch123> <- andythenorth: what could happen when ctrl+clicking a second time? show all?
11:45<andythenorth>frosch123: yes
11:45<andythenorth>if it was *really* clever it would show only the ones previously enabled
11:45<frosch123>that is troublesome if you click on different items
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11:48<andythenorth>frosch123: the behaviour in that patch is perfect
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11:49*frosch123 changed it to show all on second click
11:51<andythenorth>probably fine too :)
11:52<frosch123>though if ctrl is uses for that, noone can add a "lock" later
11:53<frosch123>hmm, so, is it really useful enough?
11:55<andythenorth>dunno. my needs might be different
11:56<andythenorth>I use the minimap *a lot* to find specific industry types
11:56<andythenorth>every minute or so for hours at a time....
11:56<frosch123>well, me too. but usually it is enough to once press "disable all", and then click one, resp. unclick the last one and click the next one
11:56<andythenorth>you just saved me a click :)
11:57<frosch123>maybe a hotkey for disable/enable all is more useful
11:57<andythenorth>I like the ctrl solution...easier :)
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11:58<frosch123>yeah, it looks nice. but the more i think about it, i think a hotkey is beeter
11:59<frosch123>though hotkeys are so stupidly global in ottd
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12:00<andythenorth>would it also open the minimap :P
12:00<andythenorth>another click saved...
12:00<frosch123>there is already a hotkey for the minimap
12:01*andythenorth wikis
12:02<frosch123>andythenorth: all buttons in the menubar have a F-key hotkey from left to right
12:02<frosch123>smallmap is F4
12:02<andythenorth>silly old mac needs me to press fn-f4 :|
12:02<andythenorth>which is just too far for one hand :(
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12:05<Zuu>Hmm, isn't small map also 'm'?
12:06<frosch123>oh, indeed :p
12:07<andythenorth>all is well in the world
12:09<Zuu>And if you commits the filter sign list patch, ctrl+L will get hooked up with the sign lit window. ;-)
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12:21<argkde4>andythenorth: there's a toggle for the FN key in system preferences -> keyboard
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12:24<OsteHovel^PDA>programmable signals patch looks interesting ;)
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12:55<andythenorth>more layouts:
12:55<andythenorth>took a while :P
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13:08<fjb>Looks good.
13:09*andythenorth wonders what next
13:13<SmatZ>@dict greeble
13:13<SmatZ>!dict greeble
13:13<andythenorth>I put the definition in the proposal :)
13:14<andythenorth>if I try and patch for this, I am *way* out of mydepth
13:14<andythenorth>already I'm seeing this could be a problem for AI support :|
13:15<andythenorth>perhaps not if all 'fields' are treated as equal
13:16<Zuu>The greebles what do they add that fields do not have? I tried to read your proposal.
13:16<Zuu>It makes it possible for NewGRFs to choose where to build the farm tiles?
13:16<andythenorth>no, just to specify the graphics to use for the tiles
13:16<andythenorth>so that more than just farm fields can be shown
13:17<Zuu>no differentiated clear costs?
13:17<andythenorth>no, so there is not an AI problem actually
13:17<andythenorth>greeble tiles == CLEAR_FIELDS
13:17<andythenorth>the terminology will look very wrong in a lot of code though :o
13:17<Zuu>Even with diferentiated clear costs, most/all AIs would handle it it.
13:18<frosch123>can the tiles get cleared independently, or would that result in half houses etc?
13:18<Zuu>The API do not tell what things cost to build/clear. The way to get costs is to find a tile that you can test on and then activate test mode and accounting mode.
13:19<andythenorth>frosch123: I have been trying to think of things that *other* grf authors might do that would be silly.
13:19<andythenorth>I would limit graphics to fit only in one tile
13:19<andythenorth>the default farm fields look pretty complicated in how they handle adjoining layouts.
13:20<andythenorth>I don't know how much of that can be replicated
13:20<frosch123>are the tiles also destroyed by snow?
13:21<andythenorth>that is a good question
13:21<andythenorth>preferably not
13:21<frosch123>do fields always have the same size?
13:21<andythenorth>I don't know. What are the implications?
13:21<frosch123>or is there rather some field tile layout?
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13:22<andythenorth>a layout would be preferable
13:23*andythenorth looks for the current field code to see how the layouts work
13:24<frosch123>how do such fields interact with "cleartile-fences" ?
13:24*andythenorth searches for 'cleartile-fences'
13:24<andythenorth>where do I find cleartile-fences?
13:24<frosch123>currently fields have random rectangular size from 4x4 to 7x7
13:25<frosch123>andythenorth: there are fences and hedges between clear tiles and fields
13:25<andythenorth>frosch123: what file is the code in for these? I am searching....but I don't know what keyword to search on :)
13:26<frosch123>clear_cmd.cpp for the fences, and PlantFarmField in industry_cmd.cpp
13:26<frosch123>actually everything containing FarbField in industry_cmd.cpp
13:27<andythenorth>so the tile defines whether it requires a fence?
13:27<andythenorth>or did I misread clear_cmd.cpp?
13:27<frosch123>a tile decides whether it needs fencses at its north side depending on the tiletypes at the north
13:27<frosch123>so a field only builds its north fences itself. the south fences are build by the clear tiles
13:28<andythenorth>makes sense
13:28<frosch123>makes it more complicated :p
13:28<andythenorth>hmmm....the fences make my plan more complicated
13:28<andythenorth>although they could be a route to the 'industry fences' that get requested occasionally
13:29<frosch123>what type of fields are you planning? forrests and mines?
13:29<andythenorth>farms, forests, mines yes
13:29<andythenorth>possibly 'landscaping' for other industries, but I'll settle for what's possible :D
13:29<andythenorth>I also don't fancy two months of drawing 'field' tiles
13:29<andythenorth>well I would if I had nothing else to do....but.... :P
13:30<frosch123>some hay bales for ogfx would be enough :p
13:31<andythenorth>there are hay bales in FIRS. FooBar drew them. They are used in the mixed farm ;)
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13:33<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r19770 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Feature: Hide all other industries when ctrl+clicking an industry type in smallmap legend.
13:33<andythenorth>^ :)
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13:34<frosch123>the yellow swines?
13:34<frosch123>maybe a bit to bright for ogfx
13:37<andythenorth>easily recolored?
13:37<frosch123>can you show an example :p
13:37<andythenorth>this fields code is quite complex for my poor brain
13:38<andythenorth>frosch123: I haven't drawn for ogfx, I'll have a look
13:38<frosch123>neither me :)
13:40*andythenorth wonders about round bales
13:40<andythenorth>I think the default ones are actually stacks of bales, not single bales
13:41*andythenorth goes back to reading baffling industry code
13:41<frosch123> <- you mean those?
13:42<frosch123> <- or those? :p
13:42<andythenorth>round bales? Yes. But they don't fit pre 1960s or some other date (I'm not sure exactly) :)
13:42<andythenorth>and incidentally, don't tell anyone but HEQS will soon feature a Unimog
13:44<Vornicus>Round balers first appeared in 1947.
13:44<Vornicus>Or at least according to Wikipedia.
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19771 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files):
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 1 changes by josesun
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 3 changes by Tucalipe
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: russian - 1 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: slovak - 77 changes by keso53
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: swedish - 3 changes by Zuu
13:46<Vornicus>But then, square balers appear to have first appeared around that time too - 1940ish? Before then, hay bales were done manually, and looked it.
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13:48*andythenorth will try and draw some bales later
13:48<andythenorth>and thinks that a Unimog in HEQS is also available as a rail vehicle :o
13:50<Vornicus>I remember back when I used to be here and people would ask "how big is a tile?" and there are something like four answers.
13:52<Vornicus>(the topographical map gives one - a single height quantum is 33m, so a tile is about 5 times that or 166 meters; then the size of buildings gives another - about 10-15m; then the size of trains gives a third - about 30-40m. Then calculation from gauge gives something ridiculously small, and then there's a height exaggeration which makes it ridiculously large.)
13:53<andythenorth>frosch123: so the existing code plants a whole field of tiles at once?
13:53<Rubidium>a heightlevel is either 50 (current trunk) or 25 (everything from more than a week ago)
13:53<@peter1138>why was it changed?
13:54<Rubidium>because it wasn't in sync with the measurement tool
13:54<@peter1138>measurement tool should've been changed :p
13:54<Rubidium>so technically I should have said:
13:54<Alberth>350m for a mountain doesn't seem good
13:54<Rubidium>a heightlevel is either 50 for current trunk or either 25 or 50 for everything older than a week
13:55<andythenorth>and fields take on irregular shapes over time because one square overplants another?
13:55<andythenorth>square / rectangle /s
13:55<Vornicus>Rubidium: I may have gotten that 33 wrong, this was back when I was playing around with it trying to figure out how big things were -- I remembered it was something like 100m in the map was 3 height quanta or so, or something.
13:56<Rubidium>Vornicus: so, level 0, level 50 and level 100; not level 0, level 33 and level 66 (then you miss one level)
13:56<asilv>is there really need to show actual heights in meters in game? wouldn't it be better to have it in some arbitrary heightlevels
13:57<Rubidium>asilv: 50m isn't arbitrary enough?
13:57<Alberth>why? we also show speed in km/h or so
13:58<Rubidium>Alberth: I think we should give that in arbitrary numbers, i.e. in x/1.6mph, x/3.2mph or x/0.8mph
13:58<@peter1138>pixels per second
13:58<asilv>that would remove arguments like: "350m for a mountain doesn't seem good"
13:59<andythenorth>just measure everything in 'units' :P
13:59<Alberth>Rubidium: perhaps use a random generator?
13:59<@peter1138>height: 8 pixels
13:59*peter1138 ponders that as a new units format :D
13:59<andythenorth>Alberth: oddly enough I am planning some random speeds :P
13:59<Rubidium>peter1138: pixels per tick ofcourse :)
13:59<Alberth>andythenorth: not needed, we display a random speed anyway :p
14:00<@peter1138>isn't that similar to mph?
14:00<@peter1138>of course, pixels per tick would change depending on vehicle direction
14:00*Sacro ticks
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14:03<andythenorth>frosch123: for FIRS, any 'fields' would definitely be limited to organic industries (farms, plantations, forests etc.) and possibly mines
14:04<andythenorth>I can see reasons to place tiles around other industries, warehouses etc. But it will be horribly confusing for station construction.
14:05<Vornicus>Ah, here's how I got that.
14:05<Zuu>Alberth: The random speed was fixed some revisions ago. Now stuck vehicles only drive in 0 km/h
14:06<Vornicus>the absolute highest altitude you can have is colored the same as the label "500m" in the contour map.
14:07<Vornicus>Since there are exactly 16 quanta, and the bottom one is sea level, that means you get 500 / (16 - 1) for the height of one quantum.
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14:08<Vornicus>...on the /other/ hand, sea level land is colored the same as the label "100m", which makes the quanta 25m, and the beach 100m high.
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14:09<Zuu>I'd say stop caring about scale, makes life much easier.
14:09<Vornicus>Suggested fix: on the contour map, relabel the colors to 0, 200, 400, 600, and 800m, which makes sea level actually sea level, and the height quantum 50 meters.
14:10<Vornicus>Zuu: where's the fun in that? :P
14:10<andythenorth>I'd just knock the unit off and have them 0, 200, 400
14:10<Zuu>Spending your time on more fun stuff like AI programming or traffic engineering. :-)
14:11<Vornicus>But I can't program AI, and my traffic engineering skills are... well they're not very good.
14:11<Alberth>Vornicus: implemented about 22 hours ago
14:12<Vornicus>Alberth: works for me!
14:12*andythenorth ponders what a forest should look like if done with fields
14:13<Alberth>lots of railroad tracks through the forest
14:13<Zuu>And don't forget the checkpoints for the orienteering runners. :-p
14:15<andythenorth>I don't think
14:15<andythenorth>that they are essential :P
14:16*andythenorth ponders
14:17<andythenorth>how to differentiate forest 'fields' from ordinary trees
14:17<andythenorth>and whether square 'fields' of forest would look good in game
14:18<Zuu>I would probably try to make it look like man made forests.
14:18<Zuu>If you can use different graphics on different tiles you could try adding a trail from the forrest machines.
14:19<andythenorth>Zuu: currently I can't use any graphics on any field tiles, so it's a bit hypothetical :D
14:21*Vornicus tries to remember how to even /use/ presignals.
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14:27*andythenorth ponders
14:27<andythenorth>mines wouldn't need fields
14:27<andythenorth>spoil heaps and stuff might be eye candy but aren't necessary
14:28<andythenorth>frosch123: fields resolves down to (a) simply being able to control the tile graphics for existing fields (to customise for different farm types).....and (b) some kind of solution for forests, which might be best done differently
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14:36<Vornicus>Logging camps I'd actually do by having the building, and then just change the way trees nearby react.
14:40<andythenorth>Zuu: you might know the answer to this....could a 'helper' AI plant trees around logging camps?
14:42<frosch123>yes, as long as it does not bankrup
14:43<frosch123>though it cannot detect logging camps as such, just industries producing woody stuff
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>that should probably be fixed...
14:43<frosch123>grfid and local id?
14:44<andythenorth>special flag 0?
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know exactly...
14:44<frosch123>or should industries get a 4 byte behaviour id?
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>in general, newgrfs need more possibilities to tell the AI what's going on
14:44*Vornicus tries to figure out a heuristic. Each logging camp would choose a particular tree to grow - then trees of that type would be planted nearby, and then would get removed (bulldozed) when they reach maturity.
14:44<frosch123>for normal primary industries, for primary industries with production boosters, for normal secondary, for secondary which need all cargos, for secondary with stockpiling?
14:45<Zuu>andythenorth: AI's can plant trees, some use it to "bride" towns. But AI's cant know which tiles that belong to an industry, only get their north corner tile.
14:45<andythenorth>I was thinking of a hack
14:46<Zuu>Not sure if you can specify which trees to build. It is probably only random trees.
14:46<andythenorth>I could use the existing special industry flag bit 1 (industry cuts trees), but I hate that behaviour.
14:46<andythenorth>I don't want to be pinning 10 logging camp windows and planting trees when they run out :(
14:46<andythenorth>So if the logging camp could plant it's own trees....
14:46<andythenorth>its /s
14:47<andythenorth>AI could be one solution, but it's a monster hack
14:47<andythenorth>A new special flag: plant trees could be another solution
14:47<andythenorth>Or adapt the 'fields' behaviour
14:47<Alberth>remove tree cutting from the game?
14:47<Vornicus>I take it there's more to that behavior than display, for Industry Cuts Trees?
14:47<andythenorth>It produces cargo
14:48<andythenorth>I don't exactly know how the cutting relates to the cargo production rate (if at all)
14:48<andythenorth>I haven't explored it because it's one of my least favourite Chris Sawyer 'quirks'
14:50<frosch123>the trees are cut cicular around the industry, and every tile produces a fixed amount of cargo
14:51<frosch123>there are no production rates
14:51*andythenorth dislikes that :D
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14:54<andythenorth>there's so much industry code already for specific behaviours :|
14:54<andythenorth>it makes me hesitant to suggest further special flags etc
14:58<andythenorth>frosch123: resp. fields. Simply controlling the graphics used for a tile looks far less complex than controlling also the layouts and fences?
15:00*andythenorth doesn't quite understand whether the existing code specifies a number for a real sprite, or the ID of a tile
15:00<Alberth>what do you think? It happened by accident, but the blue boxes seem nice
15:01<frosch123>looks like tto
15:01<andythenorth>I preferred your single list version (sorry) :|
15:02*andythenorth has been feeling grumpy about feedback today and shouldn't inflict it on others :)
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15:43<Zuu>I think the blue and purple colours do not go well togeather.
15:44<Zuu>Is there a good reason why the lists use different backgrounds? The only reasons I can come up with are historic reasons regarding the NewGRF dialog and that the save/load dialogs use black background and somehow the black background represents that it is files.
15:46<Alberth>i changed the backgrounds all back to MAUVE, it is more subtle that way
15:47<Alberth>as for the list backgrounds, I don't know
15:47<Alberth>black matrix widget is bad as you will not see the seperating lines, I guess
15:47<Zuu>I wonder if it is a problem to have the apply button far from the close window button. Maybe it is motivated to remove the x-button and have a close button at the lower right as with the difficulty window.
15:48<Alberth>I don't like not having a 'x' close button at the top
15:49*Vornicus watches the splash screen for a while.
15:49<Zuu>Though, I do agree on that it is a bad idea to remove the 'x' as all windows apart from the difficulty window has it. It's more if it becomes a problem that users forget to apply because the apply button is to far away.
15:49<Vornicus>Am I seeing that correctly? Do level crossings now go red whenever a train is nearby?
15:50<Zuu>Vornicus: Depends on how you place your path signals.
15:50<Zuu>Whenever a train reserve a path through the level crossing they go red.
15:50<Vornicus>So the previous signal must be far enough away.
15:50<Vornicus>Hey, works for me.
15:53<Zuu>Alberth: I don't know the name of the list widgets if they are the same or different. I think it will look cleaner if both lists have the same style unless there is a reason such as having lists of things strongly related to physical files in black.
15:53<Vornicus>Does it work for non-pb signals too?
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15:53<Zuu>Since with block signals the trains don't reserve a path and thus the crossing won't know that it should go red.
15:54<Zuu>I think the crossings just check for path reservations, not for trains.
15:54<Zuu>(when the path signals are used)
15:55<Zuu>Or more correctly, they probably check for both reservations and trains but only at their own tile and maybe adjacent tiles.
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16:02<Alberth> file updated
16:02<Alberth>I kind of like the different background colours
16:03<Zuu>Looks good
16:04<frosch123> <- andythenorth: new file in the pet project folder
16:04<Zuu>In the 2-display edition does the blue squares have a function?
16:05<Alberth>yeah, just like the current implementation, they show newgrf status
16:05<Zuu>If not, I would probably remove them also to make the lists more uniform. Having a darker colour at the inactive list could still be there to indicate that they are inactive.
16:06<Zuu>Oh ok. I have to admit I haven't tested it, only looked at your screenshots.
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16:07<@peter1138>too many frames
16:07<frosch123>hmm, why did i miss the new active/inactive captions the last two times i looked at the picture :o
16:08<Zuu>Maybe we need to make the titles flash :-p
16:09<andythenorth>frosch123: that spec looks like more than I was hoping for :)
16:09<Alberth>a bid red arrow and a red star with yellow "NEW!" in it :p
16:09<andythenorth>Alberth: any particular reason you favour the 'two lists' version?
16:10<Alberth>it had the most problems that needed fixing/tweaking
16:10<frosch123>andythenorth: it is the smallest spec i could imagine, which is not an unextensible hack :) though of course it does not need implenting as a whole in the first go
16:11<Alberth>actually, I am kind of stuck on how to proceed :(
16:11<frosch123>we need a good idea where to place the buttons :s
16:12<Vornicus>From what I can tell two-lists is probably the best way to do it anyway - there's two pieces of information here, active status and load order. Having inactive things mixed into the active ones would cause confusion when trying to reorder active items.
16:12<andythenorth>it doesn't in iTunes. Millions of users....
16:12<andythenorth>itunes is one list, with check boxes for active / not active
16:12<andythenorth>plus filter in place
16:13<Alberth>andythenorth: but I tweaked this one too :)
16:13<Vornicus>And in iTunes, the order given is a sort order, not a personal order. ...and actually that check box is kinda annoying!
16:13<Alberth>Vornicus: that's why you can sort on activation order :)
16:14<andythenorth>Alberth: the single list looks preferable to me
16:14<frosch123>hmm, it is easier to arrange the buttons in the one-list view :)
16:15<andythenorth>'Activate' 'Deactivate' instead of 'Add' 'Remove'?
16:15<Vornicus>What I mean is, in iTunes, the order that they show up in your library is an order generated automatically. There's no conflicts to resolve by changing the order.
16:15<Alberth>frosch123: and there is a 2nd vertical scrollbar available for the options :)
16:15<andythenorth>in an iTunes playlist you control the order by drag and drop
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16:16<andythenorth>Alberth: the single list has a smaller info area. I liked the possibility of large info text...
16:16<Vornicus>And isn't the usual layout for this kind of setup available -> active, with a couple of arrow things in between?
16:16<andythenorth>only in hideous GUIs
16:16<andythenorth>I have a book somewhere which explains why those things are so wrong every time they're properly tested
16:17<Alberth>andythenorth: I should fix the music gui then too :)
16:17<Zuu>I think the main benefit with the 2-display version is that a possible AI gui remake is probably easier to do as a 2-display version as you can have several of the same AIs. That said, unless it happens at the same time it might not be worth to take that into account when designing the NewGRF GUI.
16:18<frosch123>imo the most bothersome issue with the onelist view is, that i see no room for extending. e.g. static/normal newgrfs or using the same gui for ais. those two points would also work with the twolist view, which also looks similiar to the current content download gui. however most troublesome with the twolist gui is, that there are no nice positions for the buttons :s
16:19<andythenorth>I really think the one-list GUI should replicate the content download
16:19<andythenorth>checkboxes, right hand panel...what's not to like?
16:19<Alberth>Zuu: can you explain that? I don't see the problem exactly
16:19<Vornicus>The checkboxes are hard to see. :(
16:19<Zuu>Alberth: Which problem?
16:20<andythenorth>Vornicus: that could be fixed
16:20<Alberth>Zuu: oh sorry, the benefit
16:20*andythenorth wonders if content download and newgrf gui can be combined to one uber-gui....
16:20<andythenorth>probably horrible
16:20<Vornicus>Almost certainly horrible.
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16:21<frosch123>andythenorth: ai and newgrf might be easier
16:21<Zuu>I shouldn't take the credit for the AI thing as I think it was frosch123 who mentioned it first.
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16:21<frosch123>he, don't blame me :p
16:21<Zuu>But you wonder why AIs better work at the 2-display edition or why that is of importance for NewGRF gui?
16:22<Alberth>why you need 2 display edition for the AIs
16:22<Zuu>Let me ask the question how would you in the 1 display edition handle that you can have more than one of the same AI?
16:22<Zuu>How would I select 3 NoCAB in the 1 display edition?
16:23<Zuu>If you have a good solution for that, then I don't see any problems with using the 1 display edition for AIs as well.
16:24<Alberth>Duplicate the entry when you activate it, so you always have a de-activated as well?
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16:25<Zuu>Possible. Have to think if it is good or bad solution.
16:25<frosch123>hmm, true, with "sort by activation" by default it is not such an issue
16:25<Alberth>frosch123: what is the requirement with static/normal newgrfs?
16:27<Zuu>If we decide the 1 display edition for NewGRFs is the best one for NewGRFs, then I'm still not sure that AIs is a strong enough reason to go for another solution because it in future might give a more consistent gui.
16:27<frosch123>currently i would imagine to switch the "active" list between two sets of active grfs. the normal and the static ones. but maybe it could also work similiar to "switch palette" which might be favourable for the onelist gui
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16:29<Alberth>grfs can be either normal or static, and you chose after activation?
16:29<frosch123>anyway, what about andy's suggestion? using the onelist view, but a big description panel on the right. so both the list and the description are bigger
16:30<Alberth>widget shuffling/sizing is never a problem :)
16:30<Alberth>I can try that.
16:31<frosch123>[22:29] <Alberth> grfs can be either normal or static, and you chose after activation? <- yes, either this or that. you have to choose before activation, and static are put at the end. also not every grf can be static (which is an expensive check which might be done when pressing a button for a single file, but not for filtering the whole list)
16:32<frosch123>so well, currently i also favor the onelist view :)
16:32<Alberth>so a 'add as static' and 'add as normal
16:32<Alberth>' button would solve the problem?
16:32<frosch123>either that, or a toggle static/non-static
16:34<Alberth>toggle may be easier
16:34<andythenorth>I haven't spent any time thinking about what buttons should go where
16:34<frosch123>don't get me wrong. it is not imporant to add that function, but there should be a plan how it could be done :)
16:34<Zuu>If you want to remove some text buttons you could consider using image buttons with 14-16 pixel large arrows similar to the right window here:
16:35<Zuu>for moving entries up/down.
16:36<frosch123>buttons below/above the list take less space than right/left of it
16:36<Zuu>It would though take some horizontal space and if the list get the full window hight then it might get quite expansive in space to place them to the right/left.
16:37<Zuu>The benefit with image buttons would be to less buttons to read, but would take more space.
16:37<Alberth>andythenorth: you want to have the checkboxes too? it might get messy if the newgrf status is also displayed
16:37<Vornicus>arg, really hate inactive mixed with active.
16:38<andythenorth>Vornicus: what problems does it cause you?
16:38<Zuu>Why not just click on the location of the blue boxes to activate/deactivate?
16:38<frosch123>checkboxes raise the same problem of multiple ais
16:38<frosch123>and yes, with the grf status :)
16:39<Vornicus>andythenorth: well, the big one in this case is that "move up" and "move down" when I have few active grfs means I have to click those buttons a lot of times to get them in the right place.
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16:39<andythenorth>not if I've understood Alberth's proposal correctly
16:40<andythenorth>he's bouncing the active ones to the top of the list
16:40<andythenorth>Alberth: is that correct?
16:40<frosch123>so what is the point of the checkboxes then?
16:40<andythenorth>how often does order matter?
16:40<frosch123>andythenorth: there is a sorting dropdown to put them at the top, or to include them into the list
16:40<andythenorth>and is drag and drop out of the question?
16:41<andythenorth>this up/down business seems a little bit 1994 :P
16:41<Alberth>it would at best only work for the active grfs, as far as I can see at the moment
16:42<Alberth>unless 'sort' means a one time sort, and after that the user can move entries around
16:43<andythenorth>I can't remember when I last played a game where order matters?
16:43<Alberth>andythenorth: if you have sorting by activation switched on, and you activate a grf, it jumps to the end of the activated list, yes
16:44<andythenorth>that would be a bit disruptive but make sense
16:44*andythenorth can forsee problems with 1 list, but nothing's perfect :)
16:45<Alberth>it currently takes the selection along, so the list is jumping too, but perhaps I should move the selection one entry down instead
16:45<andythenorth>that would be good
16:45<Zuu>I think the 1 list is good for scrolling through the list and possible clicking at the left side of the names to activate them, but then the concept of setting load order becomes less obvious I think.
16:46<Alberth>that's why sort on activation is default
16:46<andythenorth>the only time I have to worry about load order is when newgrfs are fragile or broken :P
16:47<andythenorth>it's the kind of thing that should be hidden from players. I know there are tens of newgrfs that have these problems, but maybe it's time to force the issue?
16:48<andythenorth>A player using bananas is never going to find the obscure forum post that explains how one newgrf has to be before the other. They'll just think something is broken
16:49<Alberth>I cannot even find which trains/trucks to use with ECS :p
16:49<Zuu>If you (as player) don't want to care about activation order, then imho sorting by name might be better as the active ones would not jump away possible out of sight.
16:49<andythenorth>order is a legacy from TTDP, limited number of vehicles, and people not using cargos properly
16:50<andythenorth> I use the newgrf gui....I happen to have an internet connection available...should I get informed about updates to an newgrfs I have downloaded?
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16:51<Alberth>I believe every word of what you say, but I am not the NewGRF expert you need to convince
16:52<Alberth>I hope not
16:52<Zuu>andythenorth: I think I made a such suggestion once possible at the forums. Let me see if I find it.
16:53<Zuu>The main concern I think apart from implementing the checking and possible extra load on the server was that some people including R definitely don't want that a program go online before it has been given permision for it.
16:53<andythenorth>that makes sense
16:55<Zuu>Here is the thread:
16:57<andythenorth>if I'm pay-for-bandwidth or something, it's just rude to go online :)
16:58<Zuu>Yep, good my cell phone is flat rate. :-)
16:58<Rubidium>we don't want to give anyone the impression that OpenTTD 'calls home' without your permission
16:59<andythenorth>so that also saves some code and GUI thinking
17:00<Alberth>gui is probably the simplest part of the problem
17:01<Alberth>I'll code your proposal tomorrow andythenorth, so we can see how it works out
17:01<Alberth>good night for now
17:01<andythenorth>the buttons in mine are in wrong places
17:01<andythenorth>good night :)
17:01<Alberth>you have < 12 hours to solve that problem :p
17:02<Alberth>nah, just kidding :) I will look into it
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17:45<planetmaker>frosch123: your treatise on (industry) fields sounds quite nice :-)
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18:16<uzver>hi. i've got a problem with autoupdating my buses... it says i don't have money but i do have many of them :( what's wrong?
18:17<frosch123>it does not spend all money on autoreplace/renew. you can specify in advanced settings which amount to leave for your constructions
18:18<uzver>hmm.. will look at it now
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18:24<uzver>yes. it works now. thank you... costs was fluctuating near that 200 000 EU limit
18:24<uzver>so i was no luck to update them :)
18:24<uzver>has no*
18:26<__ln__>@seen peter1138
18:26<@DorpsGek>__ln__: peter1138 was last seen in #openttd 2 hours, 17 minutes, and 16 seconds ago: <peter1138> marquee?
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18:32<andythenorth>@seen the_light
18:32<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: I have not seen the_light.
18:33<andythenorth>good night :P
18:33<andythenorth>time fo zzzzzz
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18:42<uzver>interesting... how i can use few trains on just one line...
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18:43<PeterT>planetmaker: moin?
18:45<PeterT>frosch123: I know what it means
18:45<PeterT>at this hour?
18:46<frosch123>read that wiki article
18:46<__ln__>because you won't, i'll tell you: it doesn't mean "morning".
18:47<PeterT>I just did.
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19:26<Eddi|zuHause>why do english people say "Zet Zet Zet Zet ..." when they sleep?
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19:30<bryjen>its the sound of snoring
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19:44<Eddi|zuHause>but snoring sounds more like chchchch over here...
19:48<frosch123>andythenorth: Do I get a test grf when I am awake again? :)
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19:52*uzver >_> wall whie learning how to use junctions and signals
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21:01<Nite_Owl>Hello all
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21:11<Nite_Owl>Hello DDR
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22:23<Vornicus>Arg, one button I want so much: "load until another train that will load arrives"
22:23<Vornicus>or something
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23:09*DDR nods.
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---Logclosed Sun May 09 00:00:32 2010