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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-05-09

---Logopened Sun May 09 00:00:32 2010
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03:17<Terkhen>good morning
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03:23<Zuu>good morning
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03:41<planetmaker> <-- andythenorth that link was left to you by frosch last night
03:41<planetmaker>he expects a working newgrf once he wakes up :-P
03:41*andythenorth needs to learn how the bncr works :(
03:41<planetmaker>just configure it to remember the last XY lines
03:41<planetmaker>and make XY a sufficient large number
03:42<planetmaker>like 100 ... 200
03:42<planetmaker>or even larger and activate "clear upon connect"
03:42<andythenorth>how? where? etc
03:42<planetmaker>That I don't know ;-)
03:42<planetmaker>In the bouncer settings on the server
03:43*andythenorth has only one hand free. perhaps the baby should learn to type. that would help
03:43<planetmaker>yeah, teach him? her?=
03:43<nighthawk_c_m>Teach the baby to code while you do something else :-P
03:44*andythenorth will be strictly using lower case until some future time
03:44<planetmaker>small letters for small people :-P
03:45<andythenorth>newgrf gui is a puzzle
03:46<nighthawk_c_m>I should study myself why I always want a huge map, ending up with realizing that all towns are so far from each other that always a ICE/TGV line has its right to exist
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03:46<andythenorth>we're obsessing quite a lot over something that most people only use once every few days :o
03:47<planetmaker> <-- andythenorth you can login with your user name and pw there and should be able to configure it
03:47<nighthawk_c_m>I should dissasemble some GRF's some time to get a basic understanding of the pcx setups - I don't really get the idea how the nfo finds the right sprites in the pcx
03:47<andythenorth>xy coords
03:48<andythenorth>it's very basic :)
03:48<planetmaker>apropos newgrf GUI, andythenorth: why do you think that the one-list view is better? I don't follow your argument quite...
03:48<andythenorth>i might be wrong in this case
03:49<andythenorth>it's cleaner and follows a recognisable pattern, but might be the wrong tool for this problem
03:49<andythenorth>planetmaker: got firefox?
03:49<planetmaker>what 'recognizable' pattern?
03:49<andythenorth>the content download window
03:49<planetmaker>andythenorth: yes, I do. Why?
03:50<planetmaker>that's something completely different. That's an unsorted list
03:50<andythenorth> go to preferences->content->languages->choose
03:50<planetmaker>why should I chose a language?
03:50<andythenorth>just look at the gui :)
03:50<andythenorth>it's closer to solving the problem you described in your forum post
03:51<andythenorth>it's missing the info panel, but imagine this was the lhs of a two-panel layout
03:52<andythenorth>the drop down would suck in ottd though
03:52<andythenorth>makes me think those of you who like the 2-list version might have valid points
03:52<andythenorth>not my taste though :P
03:53<planetmaker>andythenorth: I don't think it's a good GUI for the task at hand in OpenTTD
03:53*andythenorth wonders what's wrong with the current newgrf 'add' using a separate window?
03:54<planetmaker>Languages make only sense to choose one. There's no point to sort them
03:54<planetmaker>and no point to compare them
03:54<andythenorth>yes there is - but nvm
03:54<Terkhen>andythenorth: it is slow
03:54<planetmaker>the current newgrf window offers not a good overview of what is selected and^
03:54<andythenorth>planetmaker: why not?
03:55<andythenorth>it gives a scrollable list of what is selected....
03:55<planetmaker>but not of what is available at the same time
03:55<planetmaker>the GUI is about making a choice of what to use
03:55<planetmaker>in order to make that efficient you need both: what you have and what you can have
03:56<planetmaker>concurrently is important
03:56<andythenorth>no it's not
03:56<planetmaker>of course.
03:56<planetmaker>say I want to select some station grfs.
03:56<planetmaker>hm... what do I miss.
03:56<planetmaker>click back and forth is very bad
03:57<planetmaker>or when going through the list, composing in general a nice selection
03:57<planetmaker>I need to know what I have when going through the list of (further) newgrf
03:57<planetmaker>This selection. That's the most important point of the NewGRF _selection_ window
03:57<andythenorth>ok fair point
03:57<planetmaker>And that very task is handled quite inefficiently in the current form
03:57<planetmaker>or with any one-list view
03:58<andythenorth>I think it's quite efficient on clicks. But maybe not on ease
03:58<planetmaker>the clicks are as few on a two-list view
03:58<andythenorth>we want ease, but speed != ease
03:58<planetmaker>just double-click to add or remove
03:58<planetmaker>which is easy :-)
03:58<andythenorth>this isn't something you do 200 times an hour, so number of clicks less important than making it obvious what to do
03:58*andythenorth hmmms
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03:59<planetmaker>Let's say: I prepared quite a number of games. And when it comes to ease of use, a two-list view is - at least for me personally - WAY preferrable when making this choice than a one-list view
04:00<andythenorth>but two small lists, one below the other doesn't solve your problem.
04:00<Ammler>wow, active sunday morning :-)
04:00<andythenorth>it's just a fail. it's logical but wrong
04:00<planetmaker>uhm... why?
04:00<planetmaker>honestly, the one-list view is a bigger fail
04:00<andythenorth>because you want to easily compare two lists yes?
04:01<andythenorth>so hiding most of each list is dumb
04:01<andythenorth>so we need something better than that. and....bigger
04:01<planetmaker>I want a view of what I have and an easy choice of things to add
04:01<andythenorth>and you might have quite a lot?
04:01<planetmaker>re-sizing is quite easily done
04:01<planetmaker>thing is that small screens have to be kept considered
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04:01<planetmaker>hello Ammler
04:01<andythenorth>that's fine, that can be handled
04:02<planetmaker>it is handled as is
04:02<andythenorth>so I typically have 15 grfs in my default setup. How many do you crazy coop people have?
04:02<planetmaker>about that number, too
04:03<planetmaker>one per vehicle type, a few stations, maybe a town, maybe some landscape
04:03<planetmaker>maybe two RV or so.
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04:03<andythenorth>so there's an active list and inactive list
04:03*andythenorth thinking out loud
04:04<andythenorth>in the current design there is an 'active' list. but no 'inactive' list
04:04<andythenorth>just an 'available' list
04:04*planetmaker doesn't see an inactive list. Just two lists being used.
04:04<planetmaker>One for the newgrs selected. One for the (remaining) newgrfs being available
04:05<planetmaker>which is what I'd do intuitively, if I'd have to select from something which I can lay out on the table in front of me
04:05<andythenorth>so call that active / inactive. or selected / avaialble
04:05<andythenorth>available /s
04:05<andythenorth>so do you feel the need to see 'selected', 'available' *and* 'info about this newgrf' all at one point?
04:06<andythenorth>I can see a reason for that....
04:06<planetmaker>Most often I only need the two lists without the detailed newgrf information
04:06<planetmaker>that's why I proposed to make the detailed information possibly available in either an extra (child) window or an optional "window extension"
04:07<andythenorth>I think that needs resolving before the rest of the list argument is resolved
04:07<planetmaker>Though I see also some benefit in having it available. But if the child window doesn't close, that would be granted
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04:08<andythenorth>I can forsee a 'utility' panel on the rhs which would cover extended info, and possibly in future setting newgrf parameters via gui
04:08<planetmaker>There's basically three principal options I see:
04:08<planetmaker>lists beneath eachother
04:09<planetmaker>lists horizontally next to each other
04:09<planetmaker>lists in two separate windows
04:09<planetmaker>which are concurrently open (e.g. the available list doesn't close as now)
04:09<planetmaker>the detailed info could be in all cases part of that window or in an extra window, doesn't really matter
04:10<planetmaker>I guess it's nicer to have that info available, though
04:10<andythenorth>and there is some thought of possibly using this for other content
04:10<planetmaker>Especially if come to think that there might become further info available in the future
04:13<andythenorth>how many characters of a newgrf title do you need to see for it to be usable?
04:14<andythenorth>I also have to think about opengfx :o
04:15<planetmaker>what about opengfx?
04:15<andythenorth>the opengfx pixel font is usefully similar to the default one :)
04:15<andythenorth>it's fine
04:15<planetmaker>default = opengfx :-P
04:16<planetmaker>proprietary = old ;-)
04:16<andythenorth>planetmaker: have a look at your newgrf narrow could the list area be?
04:16<andythenorth>before usability suffers...
04:17<planetmaker>not much narrower than default
04:17<planetmaker>well. Actually ...
04:17<planetmaker>3/5 of default
04:18<andythenorth>pixel dimensions?
04:18<planetmaker>maybe 4/5
04:19<andythenorth>I think a two-list solution is better for your problem
04:20<andythenorth>the two lists being side-by-side, for two reasons
04:20<planetmaker>@calc 64*4
04:20<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 256
04:20<andythenorth>(a) side-by-side is how we compare things
04:20<planetmaker>I do agree. That's why I made my version back than that way :-)
04:20<andythenorth>(b) if the list is to be useful, we need to give it maximum possibly vertical height
04:21<Zuu>I think a possible NewGRF settings GUI would be a separate window as with the AIs. Better use the rhs pannel for information. Like authors, sticking notes etc.
04:21<planetmaker>but as opposed to what I wrote back then, the detailed view could be even next to it, too
04:22<andythenorth>Zuu unless the game code makes it impossible, there's no reason the rhs panel can't change it's purpose depending what buttons are clicked....
04:23<Zuu>Hmm, another option would be to put the lists side by side. and then have a smaller information panel below for basic information and then any extra information/settings would be new windows.
04:23<planetmaker>I guess I could try a mockup of what might be useful
04:23<planetmaker>But it won't be a small window anymore...
04:24<planetmaker> <-- like that, Zuu ? :-)
04:26<andythenorth>planetmaker: I'm working on a mockup like that
04:26<andythenorth>only much better :P
04:26<andythenorth>or not :)
04:26<Zuu>of course it will be better when it is made by andy?
04:27<planetmaker>andythenorth: that image is not a mockup but was a working patch ;-)
04:27<planetmaker>by me actually :-P
04:28*andythenorth might be smoking crack
04:29<andythenorth>I'm making something to solve your problem not mine. I still like one list :P
04:29<andythenorth>planetmaker: you don't get 256 pixels
04:30<planetmaker>why not?
04:30<planetmaker>Smaller and the list will be hardly usable as many newgrf titles are truncated.
04:30<planetmaker>which makes selecting the proper version impossible
04:31<andythenorth>so newgrf authors should use shorter titles. me included
04:31<planetmaker>unless you want us to play with FIRS 0.1.0 and FISH 0.1.0 and so on
04:31<andythenorth>something has to give :)
04:31<planetmaker>well, those two would still fit
04:31<planetmaker>but all those ECS would become indistinguishable
04:32<planetmaker>AND: we cannot change back existing titles. And there's a lot which would get truncated with a width shorter than that
04:32<planetmaker>of course it depends upon font, but still
04:33<andythenorth>oh there's the fricking 'newgrf status' icon as well :P
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04:35<andythenorth>funny how in some places openttd gui is abstemious with white spaces and in other places it makes free with it
04:36<Alberth>it is extremely inconsistent :)
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04:38<Alberth>Someone should write a gui style guide :)
04:40<andythenorth>planetmaker et al, how long are your preset names?
04:41<Alberth>0 characters
04:41<andythenorth>brilliant, that fits into the gui very easily
04:41<andythenorth>any other bids?
04:42<Alberth>it also saves 3 buttons :)
04:42<Alberth>oh, and the preset load/save stuff
04:44<Alberth>devs will be very happy :p
04:45<andythenorth>and I have to allow for translations on buttons like 'add'? So I can't crop to min. size?
04:46<Alberth>the widget system handles that automagically
04:46<andythenorth>but if the gui is designed too precisely resp. sizes, there's a problem....?
04:47<Alberth>ie you say 'minimal size' please, and depending on the actual texts, the widget system will compute the real sizes
04:47*andythenorth is used to thinking web layouts where *everything* breaks all the time :|
04:47<planetmaker>andythenorth, presets like "tropical_strech" or "Japanese set" should fit
04:48<planetmaker>oh, hello Alberth :-)
04:48<Alberth>someone left a hole in HTML to allow specifying sizes :(
04:48<Alberth>moin planetmaker
04:49<andythenorth>really, could presets be handled in a separate window?
04:49<andythenorth>please please?
04:49<planetmaker>doesn't really make sense, does it?
04:49<Alberth>after last evening discussion, I am starting to favor the 2 list solution
04:49<andythenorth>Alberth: I am working on a layout for that in photoshop
04:49<planetmaker>If I'm about to select newgrfs, it makes perfect sense to select a collection right there
04:49<Alberth>it makes no sense for me to have presets elsewhere
04:50<andythenorth>I think the mechanism for deleting presets is....weird but anyway....
04:51<Alberth>at least you can delete them, unlike downloaded content :)
04:53<planetmaker>Something which *would* be nice, but would also need a lot of work on the newgrf implementation side (v8 newgrf version):
04:54<asilv>presets and download content don't work very well together, as presets don't automagically update to new versions downloaded from bananas. but i guess there is no reasonable way to solve that
04:54<planetmaker>a newgrf selection in the style of the adv. settings with sub-sections for the different types. But I guess that's not something possible now
04:54<planetmaker>Like newgrf->ships->fish->parameters sub menus could be possible
04:55<planetmaker>Like newgrf->ships->fish->v1.0->parameters sub menus could be possible
04:55<Ammler>the big issue is, that bananas has version info in the file path
04:55<planetmaker>that way :-) so that newgrfs are versioned and parameter not as cryptic anymore
04:56<planetmaker>anyway, that's beyond the newgrf GUI discussion now :-)
04:56<Alberth>hmm, I suggested use of tree-like somewhere, but connot remember in what area any more.
04:56<planetmaker>Alberth, it doesn't make sense as long as it cannot be supported on the newgrf side...
04:57<planetmaker>or as long as the user cannot attach (local) attributes / do the sorting
04:57<Zuu>or OpenTTD record the tags from BaNaNaS.
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04:58<Alberth>asilv: you don't always want to upgrade
04:59<Alberth>Zuu: a record seperate from the grf itself is way too complex and fragile, the grf itself should have that info
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05:00<Zuu>Alberth: I agree on that though, that having the info in the grf would be more robust.
05:01<asilv>someone called Skiper seems to have added mb's newstations and newships grfs to bananas
05:03<andythenorth>that's not going to end well :P
05:03<planetmaker>well, maybe not him, but I recall some tt-ms bloke did that some time ago, too ;-)
05:03<Zuu>hehe, add a md5sum blacklist for his grfs :-)
05:04<andythenorth>is there an official 'max width' for a new newgrf gui?
05:04<asilv>well mb's license actually would allow it, but bananas rules don't
05:06<Ammler>I am sure, it is against MB's rules
05:06<Ammler>as you can't upload the whole package
05:07<Alberth>andythenorth: as small as possible (in both directions). Afaik there is no number, but that is also kind of pointless with changing texts and font sizes
05:07<andythenorth>so....we have no agreed constraint, and we want to fit *everything* into one window
05:07<andythenorth>meh :)
05:08<Alberth>but bigger than 640x480 seems like a problem
05:08<andythenorth>what about phones?
05:08<Alberth>I doubt they have screens that big
05:08<Zuu>I've never understood why you want to play OpenTTD on a phone, when playing it on a laptop with touchpad is troublesome enough.
05:09<Alberth>having a pen to click at the screen is not better than a touch-pad?
05:09<andythenorth>the thing is, isn't the reason we have the current gui is because it fits into the tiny screens that some players want?
05:09<Zuu>A pen would be a lot better.
05:09<andythenorth>or is it just that no-one got around to changing it yet?
05:10<Zuu>That said, having a GUI that fits in 640x480 is probably not a bad thing, just don't cramp everything into 320x200 :-p
05:10<andythenorth>640x480 is perfect for the layout I'm trying
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05:10<planetmaker>Zuu, I find playing with a touchpad actually quite natural...
05:11*andythenorth plays with touchpad
05:11*planetmaker actually always plays using the touchpad only
05:11<Zuu>640x480 in English would probably be even bigger in german translation though :-p
05:11<Zuu>or Finish.
05:11<Ammler>planetmaker: s/playing/watching/
05:11<Alberth>current implementation wastes screen space because of the double grf-info display
05:11<andythenorth>that's what I'm thinking
05:12<Zuu>Maybe I'm to used to wacoms absolute adressing to be comfortable with a touchpad.
05:12<andythenorth>in a mockup....would you rather see my preferred layout at 640x480, or 'proof' that it can be crammed a bit smaller?
05:12<Ammler>Alberth: did you ever check the "old new" newgrf gui?
05:13<Alberth>any layout will be fine, I cannot judge sizes until after implementation
05:13<Ammler>it might be coded bad, what I don't have an idea about, but it is still best.
05:13<Alberth>Ammler: yes I did, but trying to upgrade got incredible messy, so I started anew.
05:14<Alberth>Ammler: you mean with the drag/drop?
05:14<Ammler>drag&drop, switch name->file, nice big lists
05:14<Alberth>or with the layout?
05:15<Terkhen>Alberth: trees were for the splitted refit window
05:16<Alberth>I am just starting to consider new features, just getting at the current point already took me 3 attempts and several weeks
05:16<Alberth>Terkhen: ah, yes. Thanks
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05:18<Ammler>also static grfs should be handle-able by gui
05:19<Alberth>Ammler: I don't expect to be finished after putting my new gui into trunk.
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05:20<Alberth>so further suggestions are welcome in the thread I guess.
05:20<Rubidium>andythenorth: there is a minimum maximum size: 640x480, i.e. the smallest scaled version of the window should fit when playing the game at 640x480.
05:21<Alberth>in english UK :)
05:21<andythenorth>great, that's a nice constraint
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05:21<andythenorth>now if stuff doesn't fit, I can kick it off the screen :P
05:21<andythenorth>constraints == good
05:22<Alberth>only constraints that you can realize are good
05:22<Rubidium>see e.g. the network server list, which is less than 640x480 with its minimum size, but the default size is way bigger to make it more usable
05:23<Ammler>is openttd able to detect, if a grf is able to load static before loading a game?
05:24<Alberth>frosch123 said yes yesterday, but the check is expensive
05:24<Alberth>so doing it with every grf is not possible
05:25<Zuu>But it could be done when you try to make a NewGRF static?
05:26<Ammler>Zuu: that is, I usually list every newgrf to the static section after restart, the list is cleaned with static grfs :-)
05:26<Ammler>hmm, was a long time ago, actually
05:26<Rubidium>maybe it is becoming time to start with DV's idea w.r.t. loading NewGRFs
05:26<Rubidium>cache stuff, so we don't need to read them upon startup except when they're new
05:27<Rubidium>e.g. name, description, palette etc.
05:27<Rubidium>but you can then also cache the static data
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05:29<Ammler>also change the cfg/preset list to grfid or something version independent
05:30<Rubidium>for that we better add (proper) versioning to NewGRFs too
05:30<planetmaker> <-- don't bother with the messy background colours
05:30<planetmaker>does that look like something which might make sense?
05:31<Ammler>I thought about changing all newgrf file names to grfid.grf in the pre-bananas time
05:31<planetmaker>that would unify selection and (possible) download of newgrfs.
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05:32<planetmaker>Left: what is selected for the current game, right: what is available (green dot) and could be available (empty checkbox)
05:32<planetmaker>but the latter only, if "check online content" has been clicked. No automatic calling home
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05:33<Ammler>well, a kind of statistic for which grfs are "really" used would be cool :-)
05:34<planetmaker>could be added in the left list by an appropriate colour bubble preceeding static newgrfs
05:34<planetmaker>and an additional toggle in the view down which allows "set as static"
05:34<planetmaker>s/view down/details view/
05:35<Ammler>set as static could be handled like palette
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05:36<Alberth>the problem of your idea is that you split downloading to two windows
05:36<Alberth>I am not sure that is a good idea
05:37<andythenorth>md5 sums :|
05:37<Ammler>he, what about one list for local and bananas grfs
05:37<andythenorth>can md5 sums wrap?
05:37<Alberth>also the current gui is already quite complicated without the download integrated
05:37<Alberth>andythenorth: they do afaik
05:37<andythenorth>why show them at all :|
05:37<Ammler>and a simple toggle, if you like to view both and if you choose a grf which isn't local it downloads
05:38<Ammler>also very confusing is that bananas uses other names than newgrf gui
05:39<Alberth>(11:39:25 AM) Ammler: he, what about one list for local and bananas grfs <-- isn't the download gui doing that already?
05:39<Ammler>Alberth: I meant in the list where you chose the grf to use
05:39<Ammler>(no sep. bananas gui)
05:40<planetmaker>Alberth, the download functionality could easily be left out of that window, if that's not desired.
05:40<planetmaker>it wouldn't change the layout really
05:40<Alberth>Ammler: bananas has more stuff than newgrfs
05:41<planetmaker>Alberth, but then, if a unified extension selection (AI + NewGRF) is desired, it could make sense to just allow downloading from that window, too
05:42<planetmaker>or just add the button "download online content" which will open that (existing) download dialogue
05:44<Alberth>planetmaker: <-- like this?
05:44<Ammler>ah, I see, planetmaker's sreen is already what I meant
05:46<Ammler>bananas should use the "manual" name only, when needed
05:46<planetmaker>Alberth, yes. You may note that I added that button to my mockup, too ;-)
05:46<planetmaker>at the bottom of the "all extensions" list
05:47<Alberth>I see it
05:47<Alberth>but you also have 3 vertical scrollbars, which is not possible atm :)
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05:50<planetmaker>I thought of adding the detailed information to the right of the two lists
05:50<planetmaker>but that goes definitely beyond a width of 640 pixels
05:52<andythenorth>Alberth: what's the limitation with 3 vertical scrollbars?
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05:54<Ammler>detail data needs a min width, not just fro md5sum
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05:55<Ammler>that is very ugly in one of Alberth's guis
05:55<Alberth>Window class has a vscroll, vscoll2, and hscroll Scrollbar data structure (2 vertical, 1 horizontal). Also there are WWT_SCROLLBAR, WWT_SCROLL2BAR, and WWT_HSCROLLBAR widgets, ie specific for each of the Scrollbar data structures.
05:56<planetmaker>well, the details view somehow needs a scroll bar or more space than in my mock-up
05:56<Alberth>we need a generalized scrollbar concept if you want to go beyond that limit
05:56<planetmaker>andythenorth, it's simply not possible without ^
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05:58<andythenorth>well we can shortly admire my photoshop and say it's impossible :P
05:58<Ammler>something else, is it possible to tell renum to ignore @@WARNING settings in nfo?
06:00<planetmaker>Ammler, I don't think... that's what they're for after all
06:01<Alberth>write a sed script to delete them first?
06:08<Ammler>planetmaker: would be nice for checking if some settings become obsolete
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06:10<planetmaker>sure. But then they're easily deleted and tested against. Unless it is sprinkled all throughout the code.
06:10<planetmaker>but in that case grep and / or sed indeed helps ;-)
06:11<Alberth>as well as a consistent code style :p
06:12<heffer>hmmm. i just was about to push the latest opengfx 0.2.4 into Fedora repositories as this weird bug occurs to me
06:12<heffer>as soon as i move the openttd window the game hangs. but ONLY if i'm on the start screen
06:13<andythenorth>planetmaker: ^ does that address your 'comparison' need?
06:13<planetmaker>andythenorth, yes, it does
06:13<heffer>oh okay. it hangs randomly ingame as well
06:13<planetmaker>I'd like to propose one little change though
06:14<planetmaker>The Preset should be next to the "Selected" and the preset buttons "save" and "delete" immediately beneath that
06:14<planetmaker>as it basically gives the selected list its name
06:14<planetmaker>(if it has one, otherwise it's "custom" as in your screen
06:15<planetmaker>heffer, with other opengfx versions, too?
06:15<planetmaker>I don't see how OpenGFX causes a hang... at least it didn't for me, nor did I hear such before
06:15<heffer>no it seems unrelated to which graphics set is used
06:15<planetmaker>uff ;-)
06:15<heffer>i just noticed it while testing the new opengfx
06:16<heffer>i unfortunately didn't have the time lately to get into excessive openttd gaming as i used to :D
06:16<planetmaker>heffer, do you have a /data directory somewhere?
06:16<heffer>yes. i was about to move that now
06:16<planetmaker>with MANY files?
06:17<heffer>in fact i didn't have one in my current profile
06:17<heffer>i moved the openttd folder in my home dir anyway
06:17<heffer>still hangs.
06:17<heffer>i'm recompiling openttd now
06:18<Zuu>andythenorth: IIRC an OpenTTD limitation is that there can only be two vectical scrollbars per window.
06:18<Zuu>Thoguh, maybe Alberth managed to get away with it.
06:19<Zuu>Still, rising that limit to 3 is probably not that hard, just that a system that allow any numbers would be a more clean fix.
06:19<andythenorth>yep, the 3 scrollbars is a late-breaking piece of news for me :P
06:20<andythenorth>might prevent this layout
06:20<andythenorth>planetmaker: you are right about the location of the preset name, but it presents various problems
06:21<Zuu>I like the layout though and as said it might not be impossible to raise the limit.
06:21<frosch123>andythenorth: your "add" button is in the wrong panel
06:21<andythenorth>frosch123: I'm thinking that.
06:21<andythenorth>the whole add / remove thing sucks
06:21<andythenorth>we have drag and drop for vehicle groups
06:22<Zuu><-- removed the limit of max one edit box visible at the time in order to make his filter sign list patch, and this shouldn't be harder. :-p
06:22<heffer>yaaay. seems to be a graphics driver issue in conjunction with compositing. we had lots of those in the late Fedora 13 development cycle
06:22<heffer>so basically it's nothing i need to care about
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06:23<Zuu>Eg. if the 3-pannel version come up as a really good solution, then it might be worth the time it takes to add the ability to have more than 2 scroll bars. Especially if you think it would be usefull in future. So I'd say don't wory to much about it right now.
06:24<planetmaker>andythenorth, the detail information in your layout doesn't really need a scrolbar
06:24<Zuu>Depends on if andy is going to put his readme there or not. :-)
06:24<planetmaker>and I think one needs both: add/remove buttons and drag+drop
06:25<planetmaker>hm... readme.
06:25<planetmaker>it'd be nice, if the details view could have a button "show readme".
06:26<planetmaker>That's an issue especially with all those bananas things people download
06:26<planetmaker>they're most often not even aware that there's a readme being shipped with the stuff they downloaded
06:26<planetmaker>actually the same goes with the license.
06:26<Zuu>andy proposed something along that yesterday or the day before that or so.
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06:26<Alberth>(12:20:43 PM) Zuu: Thoguh, maybe Alberth managed to get away with it. <-- what did I do ?
06:26<andythenorth>the panel on the right could be limited/truncated, with a 'more' button
06:27<planetmaker>andythenorth, for now it doesn't need any.
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06:27<planetmaker>it's usually large enough. Unless it's too small :-P
06:27<Zuu>Isn't it today that there is vscrollbar and vscrollbar2 variables for the two scrollbars?
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06:28<Zuu>I was thinking about if you had been adressing that in your gui system rework.
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06:28<Alberth>Zuu: oh, you missed that part :)
06:29<andythenorth>planetmaker: why are the add / remove buttons needed?
06:29<Zuu>Oh ok
06:29<planetmaker>legacy ;-)
06:29<andythenorth>the music window doesn't have add/remove
06:29<andythenorth>the vehicle groups neither
06:29<Zuu>Isn't it the same problem as the only one edit box per window limitation, that we need a way to associate data storage with widgets.
06:30<planetmaker>I agree that they're not strictly needed
06:30<andythenorth>the add/remove looks just like a legacy decision made by whoever invented newgrf 0.x
06:30<Alberth>Zuu: I didn't touch the scrollbars, only the widgets :)
06:30<andythenorth>add/remove is GUI design 1984 style :P
06:30<andythenorth>we're going through all our web apps killing those things thanks to jquery drag and drop
06:30<planetmaker>andythenorth, then you need a trashbin in order to delete files ;-)
06:31<andythenorth>imagine if the depot window was just two lists with 'add' and 'remove' buttons to configure a train consist
06:31<Alberth>rm * is so much quicker
06:32<planetmaker>sudo rm -rf / is even better :-P
06:32<andythenorth>if we kill add/remove *and* up / down in favour of dnd we get an epic win
06:32<Alberth>planetmaker: permission denied :p
06:32<planetmaker>andythenorth, the up / down is useful
06:33<planetmaker>way more than the add / remove
06:33<andythenorth>ok, so in the depot want < > arrows to set the position of a wagon in a consist?
06:33<Zuu>Indeed, and without proper visual feedback, the drag and drop becomes tricky.
06:33<Ammler>heffer: do you use KDE?
06:33<andythenorth>these buttons are bollocks :)
06:33<planetmaker>simply for the reasons that the drag to a certain position between two arbitrary but distinct newgrf is not quite easy due to the height scale of the lines
06:34<planetmaker>andythenorth, depot is different. Wagons are bigger
06:34<@peter1138>ultra realistic
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06:36<planetmaker>further, andythenorth: a text button is quite clear what it does.
06:36<planetmaker>A hidden function like drag or double click is not as intuitive.
06:36<andythenorth>no it's not
06:36<andythenorth>what does 'add' do?
06:36<planetmaker>add that thing what is selected, eh?
06:37<andythenorth>which thing, to where?
06:37<planetmaker>counter-question: what does <nothing> do?
06:37<heffer>no. gnome
06:37*andythenorth revisits the depot argument
06:37<andythenorth>yep, depot argument still holds
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06:38<Alberth>andythenorth: what does 'buy' do in the buy vehicle gui?
06:38<planetmaker>not quite, andythenorth :-)
06:38<andythenorth>Does 'add' get me new content from Bananas?
06:39<planetmaker>you know this game. You know the short way. But a new user is whom has to be targeted with GUI design, who needs to figure out things
06:39<andythenorth>Does 'remove' delete the grf from my filesystem?
06:39<planetmaker>Things need to be made easy for those
06:39<andythenorth>yep, and less stuff == more easy
06:39<andythenorth>remove everything possible, leave only what is needed
06:39<planetmaker>not if you remove the essentials
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06:40<planetmaker>or if you remove things which make proper placement (like putting a grf exactly between two others) arbitrarily difficult.
06:40<Zuu>Visual clues are imho important to show newbies what the gui is intended to do.
06:40<planetmaker>e.g. I never adjust grf oder by drag+drop. Simply because the height is too tiny to adjust my mouse properly
06:40<planetmaker>too much hassle
06:40<Zuu>same here
06:40<Zuu>I find moving orders up/down a bit tricky
06:41<planetmaker>I unfortunately don't find the GUI design page I'm looking for which describes these principles so nicely.
06:41<planetmaker>Zuu, yes, good example. A pain
06:41<andythenorth>you don't move newgrf order by drag and drop because you can't :p
06:41<andythenorth>and orders are a pain because drag and drop implementation is broken
06:41<planetmaker>andythenorth, I could with the old new newgrf gui
06:41<@peter1138>you never adjust grf order by drag+drop simply because it's not implemented
06:41<planetmaker>and I hated it there
06:41<planetmaker>peter1138, ^
06:42<planetmaker>the lines are just too tiny to use drag+drop adjustment of order
06:42<Zuu>[12:33:09] <Zuu> Indeed, and without proper visual feedback, the drag and drop becomes tricky
06:42<planetmaker>hm, yes, Zuu. With feedback it might become quite better
06:43<planetmaker>that's the main cause, you're right, which makes it troublesome
06:43<andythenorth>draggables have to look like draggables
06:43<Alberth>(12:44:25 PM) planetmaker: the lines are just too tiny to use drag+drop adjustment of order <-- so you had to drop between two other grfs?
06:43<andythenorth>orders dragging is completely fucked so please don't use that as an example
06:44<planetmaker>Alberth, when adjusting newgrf order that's something one would like to do, yes
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06:44<andythenorth>normally you just split lines in half and drop above or below the split
06:44<Alberth>I'd expect that dargging a grf on top of another one would mean I want the new one at that place, shifting the others down
06:44<andythenorth>you shouldn't need to hit a tiny drag target of the divider, that's dumb
06:45<planetmaker>Alberth, maybe yes. But it still would help BIG TIME, if the place it will get inserted is highlighted in some way
06:45<Zuu>I would expect that there is a thick line drawn over the divider where it would be inserted.
06:45<planetmaker>like a bold separation line or so
06:45*andythenorth tries some itunes drag and drop (approx same size lines)....hmmm not as good as it should be
06:45*andythenorth remains unconvinced by dnd
06:46<andythenorth>despite arguing strongly about it :P
06:46<planetmaker>like adding bookmarks to firefox
06:46<andythenorth>also, dnd could be TMWFTLB, given the existing code....exists
06:47<andythenorth>So the wording....
06:47<andythenorth>If we have 'Inactive', 'Active' for the two lists....then we can have 'Activate' and 'Deactivate' for the buttons
06:47<andythenorth>and suddenly it starts to make more sense
06:48*andythenorth stops arguing and starts drawing
06:48<planetmaker>add / remove or activate / de-activate is a detail. The latter might be better wording, agreed
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06:49<andythenorth>it matters to me :)
06:49<andythenorth>stuff has to relate correctly, or it's just broken
06:51*Zuu wants a legend in word that allows quick jumping to headlines in his 29-page documnet. - I guess one has to think vim and use search more to navigate.
06:51*andythenorth argues about guis like programmers argue architecture decisions
06:51<frosch123> <- andythenorth: when do i get a test grf? :p
06:51*Zuu start thinking about a vba addon.
06:52<andythenorth>frosch123: when the arguing is done (sorry!) :)
06:52<andythenorth>planetmaker: yes yes. which is why I'm trying to solve the problem you describe, not the one that fits my personal taste :P
06:53<Ammler>frosch123: could also be used for a lumbermill industry?
06:53<andythenorth>Ammler: possibly.
06:53<planetmaker> <-- that's the exact article I looked for
06:54<planetmaker>dealing with the "pointing accuracy" which you want to require (or not)
06:54<planetmaker>this guy has quite a number of good articles :-)
06:54<frosch123>Ammler: you cannot plant trees, and let the lumbermill cut them. but you can plant tree-looking industry tiles, let them grow, and let them notify the industry when the cut themself. that is they result in no production if the player cuts them for some railroad
06:54<Alberth>planetmaker: he also has a book with them, I found out
06:55<andythenorth>planetmaker: I have three of his books. we buy them for all of our developers :P
06:56<planetmaker>then you agree to the article I linked ;-)
06:56<andythenorth>Joel is practical, but this a better book on GUI design
06:56<nighthawkcm>what do your developers develop?
06:56<Ammler>frosch123: possible to check, if the tile you plant the industry tile has a tree?
06:56<planetmaker>and that drag+drop without feedback for sorting default text lines in OpenTTD is... a pain
06:56<andythenorth>yes, but only because the drag-and-drop implementation is broken
06:56<andythenorth>and it's probably TMWFTLB to get right
06:56<frosch123>Ammler: yes
06:56<andythenorth>so we'll try the buttons
06:57<Ammler>frosch123: then it is possible to simulate current LumberMill already, isn't?
06:57<frosch123>landscape class of the landinfo of nearby tiles variable
06:57<frosch123>oh, that way. yes, maybe. but i do not know how often farms try to plant fields
06:59*Zuu want to kill VBA for not prefixing their types and not allowing eg. using lower case for vars and upper case for types.
06:59<planetmaker>hm, Rubidium ? Someone probably uploaded stuff to bananas whom he's not the author of
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07:00<frosch123>hmm, maybe we should man grfs with grfid "mb"xx
07:00*Alberth gives Zuu a big sharp axe
07:00<planetmaker>frosch123, just add a list of md5sums which need exclusion
07:00<Alberth>and auto-ban any user that tries adding them :p
07:00<Zuu>Maybe it was not really all that good for my health to do some VBA coding..
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07:01*Alberth is not so sure that having an ill Zuu with a sharp axe is such a good idea :p
07:01<planetmaker>hahaha :-)
07:02<andythenorth>Alberth: shall I assume 3 vertical scrollbars is a no-no?
07:02<Alberth>unless you generalize the scrollbar code first, indeed it is
07:03<@peter1138>openttd can't have 3 vertical scrollbars... yet
07:03<andythenorth>fine fine
07:03<@peter1138>i should finish off that patch...
07:03<planetmaker>go go :-)
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07:18<andythenorth>planetmaker frosch123 Alberth
07:18<andythenorth>there are some changes I'd like to make to that...but...
07:18<andythenorth>what do you think?
07:19<Ammler>why the details on the side and not below?
07:20<Zuu>Actually I like it better at the side than below. You don't want to read that wide lines of text.
07:21<planetmaker>looks fine to me, andythenorth
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07:21<Ammler>but the grf authors didn't make the descriptions in that respect
07:22<planetmaker>Ammler, they didn't make it for any width or size. So any is fine
07:22<andythenorth>It's a question of priorities. planetmaker wants to compare two lists
07:22<andythenorth>the correct way to compare two lists is side by side, with max possible height for lists
07:22<Ammler>hmm, they made it looking fine for current width
07:22<planetmaker>andythenorth, that's not an argument against putting the details view below it ;-)
07:22<andythenorth>yes it is
07:22<andythenorth>it wastes vertical height
07:23<planetmaker>you still have 130 pixels ;-) But I like it better this way
07:23<Ammler>Zuu: there aren't wide, because authors added newlines
07:23<planetmaker>so I won't argue against three panels next to eachother
07:23<andythenorth>Also, I have other plans for that side panel....
07:23<planetmaker>which are?
07:23*Ammler prefers pm's proposal
07:24<Zuu>pm's proposal to not argue against the 3-panel edition?
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07:27<andythenorth>the side panel could also be used for setting newgrf parameters by gui
07:27<andythenorth>planetmaker: what was the link to your proposal
07:27<Ammler>Zuu: <-- I count 2
07:28<Ammler>andythenorth: ^
07:29<planetmaker>my proposal is not as refined ;-)
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07:29<Zuu>Ammler: so do I on that image, I was just joking with you. pm just said before that he would not argue against the 3-panel edition.
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07:29<Ammler>Zuu: that is why I did ;-)
07:29<planetmaker>Zuu I can live with either.
07:29<planetmaker>both need a 3rd scrollbar.
07:29<Ammler>well, almost everything is better than current
07:30<planetmaker>pro for mine: wider lists and wider details view. con: higher window
07:30<planetmaker>pro for andy's: smaller window, more space for detail view (I think)
07:31<planetmaker>both proposals will fail on some detail views without scrollbar for it
07:31<andythenorth>planetmaker: yours has more pixel real estate for info
07:31<planetmaker>yes, but the usable amount is not necessarily bigger
07:31<andythenorth>it only has about 8 lines
07:32<planetmaker>as the usable amount is some convolution of space and lines
07:32<andythenorth>mine has about 25 lines
07:32<andythenorth>so the horizontal layout forces a lot of waste
07:32<Eddi|zuHause>newgrfs could use a more detailed description in their... description
07:32<Zuu>I have to agree that both have their pros and cons, but are still good improvements.
07:32<planetmaker>andythenorth, not all of those 25 are usable, though, either. Like the md5sum will always eat two or three.
07:33<andythenorth>for the interaction, I have some issues with mine, but I think it's the best way to solve the described problem
07:33<planetmaker>As will others with longer descriptions break lines, too
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>the newgrf description should basically be the same as the description on bananas
07:33<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I kind of think that too.
07:33<planetmaker>andythenorth, I prefer my solution as it allows easier to integrate both newgrf and AI selection in one window
07:34<andythenorth>my design is currently only 355px high, it would permit significantly long lists
07:34<planetmaker>which would due to the limited width of your lists not be reasonably feasable
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>description what the grf does, what parameters are available, link to forum topic, etc.
07:34<planetmaker>yes, Eddi|zuHause we had that :-P
07:35<andythenorth>why would you select AI in the same window?
07:35<planetmaker>andythenorth, as both are "extensions"
07:35<planetmaker>when designing a game it makes kinda sense to unify that
07:35<planetmaker>if not - no problem
07:35<planetmaker>more real estate for the names themselves
07:36<planetmaker>or for a possible category tag or so
07:36<planetmaker>all of which is discussed ;-)
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07:39*andythenorth ponders
07:39*frosch123 is quite amused about the tags of the recently uploaded mb grfs :p
07:40<Zuu>what are the tags?
07:40<planetmaker>^ ?
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07:40<andythenorth>do we want AI / newgrf all handled in one window? Or panes (like firefox add-ons)?
07:40<frosch123>newstations: new, stations, ttdpatch; newships: new, ships, ttdpatch, blunck :p
07:41<Ammler>Zuu: you see them in the openttd gui
07:41<planetmaker>haha :-)
07:41<Zuu>andythenorth: You probably want to separet them on different tabs or something as they would need slightly different gui.
07:41<Alberth>andythenorth: the idea is to do them in the same kind of window
07:41<Zuu>And you do not really want to put a newgrf on an AI slot or the other way around. :-p
07:42<planetmaker>Alberth, then a tab'ed view might make sense
07:42<Ammler>frosch123: is at least the readme in the tar?
07:42<Alberth>it makes no sense at all to me
07:42*andythenorth more drawing
07:42<frosch123>did not look, but the description seems to be copied directly
07:42<Alberth>AI and NewGRF are totally different things
07:42<planetmaker>they're both extensions.
07:43<planetmaker>both need parameter being set (kinda)
07:43<planetmaker>yes, add-ons
07:43<planetmaker>they're only different from what they impact. But not in the way that they're add-ons (yes, the better word)
07:44<andythenorth>Any other feedback on my last screenie? I think they yellow buttons are too vivid
07:44<andythenorth>Preset drop down menu big enough?
07:44<planetmaker>should be
07:44<Alberth>always, it resizes automagically
07:44<planetmaker>but I still like my wider view ;-)
07:44<andythenorth>I don't dislike it
07:44<planetmaker>not so many cut-off texts
07:44<andythenorth>but imagine you're new to the game....
07:45<frosch123>oh, TrueBrain is also here
07:45<planetmaker>or, Alberth would it re-size in both views automatically?
07:45<andythenorth>planetmaker: I might clean up your mockup later
07:45<Alberth>both views?
07:45<planetmaker>IIRC the lhs view of andythenorth's proposal (the current window) doesn't quite scale always
07:45*frosch123 likes highlighting without giving reasons
07:45<planetmaker>Alberth, active and inactive lists
07:45<Zuu>IIRC you set proportions so eg each take 1/3 but it could be something else to.
07:45<Zuu>Eg 2/5, 2/5, 1/5.
07:46<TrueBrain>grr @ frosch123
07:46<frosch123>TrueBrain: do you mind telling me, how to remove content from bananas violating the tos?
07:46<frosch123>rb does not seem to be around
07:46<Alberth>good morning TB, glad you are awake too :)
07:46<TrueBrain>send me the entry which is in violation, and the reason :)
07:47<planetmaker>latest two
07:47*Alberth gives TB some coffee
07:47<frosch123>the two new newstations and newships, both not uploaded by owner
07:47*andythenorth thinks not all space should always be filled by buttons
07:48<planetmaker>hehe. Automatic button re-size so that there's no space left.
07:48<frosch123>is there an easy way to blacklist uploading of grfs with certain grfid's or md5sums?
07:48<planetmaker>Gives a nice crowded feeling ;-)
07:48<Alberth>andythenorth: the empty space also has widgets, and can also resize
07:49<Alberth>eg the centering of the 'quit' button in the intro screen is done in that way
07:50<TrueBrain>frosch123 / Alberth: you are 100% sure Skiper is not the author? (and I ask you two as planetmaker is not a developer :p)
07:50<frosch123>i am reasonably sure :)
07:50*Alberth is clueless
07:51<planetmaker>TrueBrain, hard to be sure, but would you think that mb uploads under a different name than his?
07:51<frosch123>you may blame me, if the upload was my author :)
07:51<TrueBrain>so nobody complained :p
07:52<planetmaker>hehe. Or change the TOS. ;-)
07:52<Alberth>we could pull the entry, and send mb a pm, telling that we did that
07:52-!-last_evolution [] has joined #openttd
07:52<Alberth>and also telling him that we black-listed his grf (if we are doing that)
07:52<Ammler>why not asking him to upload his stuff?
07:53<Ammler>or if it might be ok, what skiper did
07:53<Alberth>by bananas rules it is not afaik
07:53<Ammler>well, skiper needs to be droped anyway
07:53<frosch123>yeah, ask him we are tired of deleting his stuff, whether he wants to upload them officially?
07:53<Ammler>else others might think, it is
07:54<TrueBrain>we require the original author to upload
07:55<Alberth>well, it does show people like his grfs :)
07:55<Alberth>that may make him change his mind if you ask in the right way
07:56<TrueBrain>so go ask mb
07:57<Alberth>don't look at me, I don't even know what grfs mb has made :p
07:57<TrueBrain>grfs removed, mailed Skiper explaining why
07:57<Alberth>thank you very much
07:58<TrueBrain>but yes, BaNaNaS needs a blacklist system :p
07:58<Ammler>or a moderator system
07:59<TrueBrain>no, voted very much against that
07:59<TrueBrain>BaNaNaS has to be maintaince free
07:59<TrueBrain>(ignoring the few TOS violations a year)
07:59<Ammler>well, maintaining blacklist needs moderator too
07:59<TrueBrain>not really
07:59<TrueBrain>just the ones from mb in fact
07:59<TrueBrain>till he changes is mind :)
08:00<Alberth>hardcode them in bananas :p
08:00<frosch123>then just test the grfid for starting with "mb" :p
08:00<TrueBrain>ghehe :)
08:01<TrueBrain>BaNaNaS is really much bigger than I ever expected it to be
08:01<Ammler>or "fix" the TOS
08:01<TrueBrain>hell no
08:01<Zuu>Hmm or add a field in the grf spec for if it is allowed to be on bananas, given that it is considerable easy to read it from the phyton script.
08:01<TrueBrain>that is the worst idea yet
08:01<TrueBrain>Zuu: ghehe
08:01<frosch123>the very worst :)
08:01<TrueBrain>nice idea :)
08:01<TrueBrain>Yexo: concratz on your 100,000 download :p
08:02<Alberth>Zuu: so how long would it be before we get the same grfs with just that single bit different?
08:02<TrueBrain>Alberth: are people that bad?! :(
08:02<TrueBrain>(Sarcasm :p)
08:03<Ammler>well, you need to remove all current grfs as not set means not allowed :-)
08:03<Alberth>I have given up hope on mankind in that respect
08:03<frosch123>Ammler: affecting all md5sums :p
08:03<TrueBrain>easier to make the bit say: not allowed :p
08:04<Zuu>Having allowed as default makes much more sense.
08:04<TrueBrain>Ammler: about your "fix" the TOS idea: mb is completely fully 100% in his right to not upload his GRFs. If he feels he should not do that, it is his right, his freedom. We should learn to respect that, how ever annoying it might be.
08:05<Alberth>we can also add some encrypted data in the grf, and the author must prove he has the original data
08:05<TrueBrain>lets PGP sign grfs :p
08:05<Ammler>TrueBrain: I am quite sure, MB isn't against uploading to bananas, do you know more than me?
08:05<frosch123>just disallow uploading crap older thand 3 years :p
08:06<TrueBrain>frosch123: but how to detect that ..... :p
08:06<TrueBrain>Ammler: he might not be against, but he didn't do it either. His freedom, his right
08:06<Ammler>yep, exactly
08:07<Ammler>but it isn't fair to blame MB for what skiper did
08:07<Zuu>andythenorth: At least for AIs I would want a seperate window for the settings or you would need to line break the setting names.
08:07<andythenorth>let me look
08:07<TrueBrain>Ammler: I don't know about you, but I blame Skiper
08:07<andythenorth>I think there is more going on than just this newgrf window
08:08<andythenorth>why do we need 'options, advanced settings, 'difficulty settings'
08:08<Alberth>nobody merged them until today
08:08<andythenorth>all of this seems a bit upside down to me
08:08<andythenorth>I don't mean they are merged :)
08:08<Ammler>merge and make presets :-)
08:08<Alberth>Ammler: I don't see how we blame mb
08:08<andythenorth>I mean why so many?
08:08<Zuu>I think we want to have some difficulty system but maybe have it separeted to where options etc. are located.
08:09<Alberth>(02:10:32 PM) Alberth: nobody merged them until today <-- andythenorth
08:09<TrueBrain>k, gone; have a good day all!
08:09<Alberth>bye TB
08:09<andythenorth>Zuu: I don't see any problem for a separate settings window
08:10<Zuu>Also there was a forum theread with joining setting window suggestions some time ago that eventually died when the poster realized nobody would pickup his ideas and code them for him.
08:10<Alberth>even someone refused?
08:11<andythenorth> only have a grf active once, but multiple instances of an AI can be the AI and newgrf lists are conceptually different....which is fine
08:11<Zuu>andythenorth: Sure, no problem to have a button to open the setting window.
08:11<Zuu>(for ais)
08:11*andythenorth wonders what is the flow for the player thinking "I just want to start a new game"
08:12<andythenorth>most of the suggestions by the forum guy were bloody awful
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08:15<andythenorth>are we trying to get a quick improvement of newgrf window....
08:15<andythenorth>...or shall we sort out the gui for new players who don't understand all the legacy stuff
08:15<Zuu>a good and valid question
08:15<andythenorth>optimising the newgrf window might be polishing a poo :)
08:16<planetmaker><frosch123> just disallow uploading crap older thand 3 years :p <--- touch `ls ~/.openttd/data/*.grf` ;-)
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08:17<andythenorth>Alberth: are you much interested in improving the whole 'start a game' GUI?
08:17<planetmaker>Zuu, I once started to tackle the merge of options and settings...
08:17<planetmaker>but it proved to be a snake pit
08:18<andythenorth>I ask because we already have a lot of projects going on, there's no point incurring a lot of work-in-progress
08:18<Alberth>not at this time
08:18<frosch123>andythenorth: ottd always improved in small steps
08:18<andythenorth>but I now think that just tweaking newgrf gui is lipstick on a pig
08:18<andythenorth>what is a fricking newgrf anyway?
08:18<andythenorth>I was scared to install one for about 2 years, it looked complicated
08:19<planetmaker><andythenorth> only have a grf active once, but multiple instances of an AI can be the AI and newgrf lists are conceptually different....which is fine <-- I think that is thinking in programmer's terms. Not user concepts
08:20<planetmaker><andythenorth> ...or shall we sort out the gui for new players who don't understand all the legacy stuff <-- definitely a good suggestion
08:20<andythenorth>suggestions are easy :P
08:20<planetmaker>yeah :-P
08:21<andythenorth>planetmaker: the AI point....I think adding AIs is completely different to moving stuff from one list to another. I don't know that they should use the same GUI pattern, that was my thinking
08:21<Ammler>wrote a pm do mb
08:21<andythenorth>was that a haiku
08:21<planetmaker>I think we talking here all know that suggestions come easy, realization... is something else
08:22<andythenorth>I keep looking at all the buttons and asking 'why?'. Why should I click newgrf settings? What does it mean? What is AI settings?
08:22<andythenorth>Why should I check online content? What do I get?
08:22<planetmaker>andythenorth, if it's about re-thinking "how to start a game", an AI is just as a NewGRF an extension to the default game. Both of which need configuring
08:23<andythenorth>so to start a game....either (A) choose a scenario or (B) start a custom game
08:23<planetmaker>Using any settings on either, newgrf or AI is and advanced thing. Way more advanced than just adding or removing them
08:23<planetmaker>I'm talking about 'custom game'
08:23<planetmaker>Things I have to do (currently) are:
08:23<planetmaker>- check difficulty settings for number of competitors, loan, interests etc
08:24<andythenorth>To start a custom game, the things that matter: map/landscape; add-ons, competitors, difficulty settings
08:24<planetmaker>- checking newgrf settings for proper selection
08:24<planetmaker>- checking AIs adding those which I need
08:24<planetmaker>- checking adv. settings for the crucial ones which cannot be changed in the game
08:24<Alberth>but just sticking to newgrfs, eg my brother had a bad experience with ECS because he didn't load a good set of trains/RVs that is more of a problem for new players than some buttons imho
08:24<planetmaker>which is a LONG lists
08:24<planetmaker>Alberth, agreed
08:24<Zuu>I think it would make sense to collect various settings to a bigger new-game window. A problem though is that in-game you would probably want to access the old separate windows. A possible way to overcome this would be to add the concept of Frames to the GUI code. Eg. some of todays windows would become frames that are included in separate windows and combined in a big new-game window.
08:24<planetmaker>Dependencies would be nice ;-)
08:25<andythenorth>Alberth: agreed
08:25<andythenorth>Zuu: that is a good point.
08:25<andythenorth>but *do* you want to access the old separate windows?
08:25<andythenorth>if there was a better alternative?
08:25<planetmaker>better depends upon what you want to do
08:25<Zuu>Another option would be to show that big new-game window and grey out things you can't do when the game has been started already.
08:25<andythenorth>seems an obvious route
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08:27<andythenorth>so planetmaker you started looking at sensible reorganisation of 'Game Options' 'Advanced Settings' 'Difficulty' ?
08:27<planetmaker>yes. But quite some time ago
08:27<planetmaker>IMHO it'd make perfect sense to move the newgrf and AI selection to the new game window
08:27<planetmaker>and some of the options (driving side, town names), too
08:28<planetmaker>or maybe even to the adv. options
08:28<andythenorth> many economy options does the game have? This worries me as I am coding industries
08:28<planetmaker>some ;-)
08:28<Zuu>can NewGrfs read advanced options?
08:28<andythenorth>So there is 'steady', 'fluctuating', 'smooth (on/off)'. How do they all interact?
08:28<Ammler>another pm to peter :-)
08:28<planetmaker>The real difficulty is: what are the essential options (frequently changed) and what are the real "advanced options" which usually are only selected once and not changed often
08:29<planetmaker>Zuu, yes
08:29<planetmaker>at least some
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08:29<andythenorth>environment vs. instance
08:29<andythenorth>if that makes any sense
08:30<planetmaker>no. But only because of a parse error / context error here (I don't get you)
08:30<andythenorth>global / local?
08:30<planetmaker>you are talking about what?
08:31<andythenorth>settings...hmmm, hard to find the right explanation
08:31<Ammler>you also need to differ between difficulty levels for setting and gameplay
08:31<andythenorth>.some things change for 'this is my openttd' and some for 'this is my game starting in 1923 with NARS 2' or whatever
08:31<planetmaker>there's one part of the settings which is quite obviously different: the local GUI settings
08:31<andythenorth>it's probably obvious but I'm missing the right terminology :)
08:32<planetmaker>then there's the settings which can be changed only upon game start
08:32<planetmaker>and then there's some which can be changed always
08:32<andythenorth>so the right analogy is 'application vs. document'
08:32<planetmaker>But the latter two... well... not all are really equally important ;-)
08:33<planetmaker>andythenorth, I don't think.
08:33<planetmaker>Settings once chosen are saved - as default for the next time you configure things
08:33<planetmaker>so all are global so to say
08:34<planetmaker>but if you are already running a game, everything except the gui settings are local to that particular game (document), if one takes that analogy
08:34<andythenorth>I think we understand each other, but lets take some examples
08:34<planetmaker>and then changes are NOT saved to the global config
08:34<andythenorth>Screenshot format?
08:34<planetmaker>GUI setting
08:35<planetmaker>language: GUI setting
08:35<planetmaker>engine pool: game setting
08:35<planetmaker>signal distance: GUI setting
08:35<andythenorth>Savegame format?
08:35<planetmaker>max_trains: game setting
08:35<planetmaker>andythenorth, yes, but those are not bothersome
08:36<andythenorth>so basically, everything that is already in Advanced Settings->Interface looks correct
08:36<planetmaker>strictly local settings which may differ from client to client in a MP game are not so many. They're already quite well separated in its own section in the settings
08:36<andythenorth>And some things in Game Options belong somewhere like that
08:36<andythenorth>e.g. graphics and sound sets?
08:36<planetmaker>I don't think
08:36<andythenorth>screen resolution?
08:36<planetmaker>That's something which cannot be changed in a running game (base sets)
08:37<planetmaker>screen resolution might work.
08:37<andythenorth>everything in Advanced Settings can be changed during the game?
08:37<Zuu>no, eg #op codes can not be changed in a runnig game.
08:38<planetmaker>neither a number of other settings which would screw newgrfs
08:38<planetmaker>most prominent one is engine pool
08:39<andythenorth>so same for base graphics / sound? Just don't allow change in running game
08:39<Zuu>So either it is made clear what is possible to change in games using grouping of settings or introducing an icon or not at all.
08:39<andythenorth>Zuu: that's an optimisation :)
08:39<planetmaker>Zuu, things are grayed out, if not possible. It works that way
08:39<andythenorth>if the proper things are in the proper place, we can optimise later :)
08:40<andythenorth>but things are in improper places at the moment. I've been playing the game for years, and I'm often baffled :o
08:40<Zuu>sure, can be tweaked at the end. I was though more refering to informing players before they start the game what settings they can't change after the game has started.
08:40<planetmaker>hm, can the adv. settings "eat" drop down menus?
08:40<andythenorth>Zuu: agreed ;)
08:41<andythenorth>Lets kick holes in Difficulty Settings....
08:41<andythenorth>Max no. competitors?
08:41<planetmaker>Zuu, indeed it might be the best idea to just give them a visual indicator within the normal category scheme
08:41<planetmaker>then at least the categories are not broken by the fact that something can / cannot be changed later in the running game
08:42<planetmaker>andythenorth, the whole difficulty settings IMHO can go
08:42<andythenorth>it's junk and wastes pixels
08:42<andythenorth>nearly all of it is replicated somewhere else
08:42<planetmaker>it could be integrated in the new game / adv. options dialogue without loss
08:42<planetmaker>but nothing is replicated. It just needs moving
08:42<Zuu>Agreed, though I would like to keep the posibility to globaly say I want an easy, medium or hard game without caring about details. (mostly for newbies)
08:42<planetmaker>none of those things can be set elsewhere
08:43<planetmaker>Zuu, yes. Just one button in the "new game" view
08:43*andythenorth finds that some of the difficulty settings make no difference really
08:43<planetmaker>drop down with "custom / easy / intermediate / difficult"
08:43*planetmaker agrees with andythenorth
08:43<andythenorth>with the default game in temperate, you either run coal first and win, or you don't. 'Difficulty' is irrelevant
08:44<planetmaker>But that's another topic. Let's not mix that :-)
08:44<Zuu>Difficulty affects the default settings for AIs and could possible do that for NewGRFs to if someone adds that.
08:44<planetmaker>Adding / removing single settings to a particular difficulty level is something which can be discussed separately.
08:44<andythenorth>Interest rate is also almost pointless
08:44<Zuu>pm: agreed it can be a separate discussion.
08:44<planetmaker>slope steepness could certainly be a difficulty setting ;-)
08:45<andythenorth>yup....I just wanted to raise the idea of letting some of the original settings go to the bin
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08:45<planetmaker>ok, back to sorting options and settings: difficulty could be boiled down to one switch
08:45<andythenorth>are we going to document this anywhere?
08:45<planetmaker>and maybe indicate (also) those settings which affect difficulty
08:45<planetmaker>I'll make a copy of this, I guess :-)
08:46<andythenorth>we might need pictures :o
08:46<planetmaker>an indicator like for the "cannot be changed ingame" thing, too
08:46<planetmaker>andythenorth, later :-) First the concept
08:46<Zuu>we leave it for you andy to design a clear icon that everyone understands ;-)
08:46<andythenorth>meh.....I was thinking 'concept art' :P
08:47<andythenorth>so 'play heightmap' always confuses me
08:47<andythenorth>I want to 'play game' and 'choose landscape options'
08:47<andythenorth>heightmap in my head goes alongside the random generators
08:47<planetmaker>makes sense
08:48<planetmaker>What I like, though, is the quick-start option to select a climate and ctrl+click "new game" :-)
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08:48<andythenorth>that was well-hidden :o
08:49<planetmaker>very much so, yes :-P
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08:49<planetmaker>but then ctrl is the MAGIC key ;-)
08:49<Zuu>Could be a quick start button on the main window when we get more space there with a separate window with just difficulty + climate selection.
08:49<andythenorth>Zuu I think it can be handled differently
08:49<planetmaker>Zuu, then it's not quick anymore, if I need to go through another window
08:50<planetmaker>then I can just press newgame and accept the defaults and say "go"
08:50*andythenorth is envisaging a tab-based window with a 'Go' button always present
08:51<andythenorth>(not a wizard where you have to go through every screen in order)
08:51*planetmaker hmmmms
08:51<Zuu>And having the main settings at the first tab...
08:51<planetmaker>andythenorth, sounds quite good for the settings of a new game
08:51<andythenorth>adding / changing climates is really a no no for openttd?
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08:51<planetmaker>and the whole current adv. settings could go to a separate "adv. settings" one
08:52<planetmaker>andythenorth, not entirely I'd think. But why?
08:52<andythenorth>just thinking in pictures.....considering layouts / organisation
08:52<planetmaker>You can always replace an existing one...
08:52<andythenorth>killing toyland is a no no?
08:52<planetmaker>Otherwise I'd have to kill you :-P
08:53<andythenorth>whoever did and redid the advanced settings was smart
08:53<andythenorth>it's good work
08:54<quix>hi everyone! i'd like to include mysql support for saving highscores in my mod. where's the best way to add the needed link options? like "-L/usr/lib64/mysql -lmysqlclient -lz -lcrypt -lnsl -lm -L/usr/lib64 -lssl -lcrypto"
08:54<andythenorth>I think a few Advanced Settings are really difficulty settings....slope steepness etc (as planetmaker said)
08:55<andythenorth>Is max vehicles an advanced setting or difficulty setting do you think?
08:55<Zuu>quix: If it is just for your personal use you could do that in the makefile and/or visual studio project files.
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08:56<planetmaker>the amount of vehicles doesn't quite affect difficulty. Except if you allow / disallow aircrafts
08:56*andythenorth doesn't make scenarios much....are there any advanced settings that should be restricted in a scenario?
08:56<andythenorth>or in a future goals framework?
08:56<quix>Zuu: ok, i was looking at so there's no clean already prepared way for this?
08:56<+glx>pass that to configure
08:56<Zuu>I think so, but it was a half year since I looked in a makefile last.
08:57<planetmaker>andythenorth, well... the amount of vehicles available makes certainly sense for a scenario
08:57<Zuu>and it really depends on how you make the Makefile. All Makefiles are not the same.
08:57<planetmaker>But it remains something which can be changed on a running game
08:58*andythenorth wants to be sure to leave the way open for a future goals framework
08:58<planetmaker>In a scenario setting (when loading one) it makes sense to honour all settings saved within that game.
08:58<planetmaker>After all a scenario is just a savegame with another file extension
08:58<quix>glx: i can just pass it to configure? okay, will check...
08:58<planetmaker>So no need to make anything special there. Everything should be in the scenario file, if you choose to load it.
08:58<andythenorth>planetmaker fine for current scenarios, but in a goals framework authors might want to restrict some options?
08:59<planetmaker>andythenorth, yes, but every option (except GUI) is saved in a savegame / scenario
08:59<Zuu>all options but the GUI options would imho be disabled in a goal scenario?
08:59<planetmaker>so nothing to bother about. It will then in the future be also with the enhanced scenario scripts
09:00<planetmaker>Zuu, well. Should it? I don't think
09:00<andythenorth>interestingly, if goals become available, the default difficulty easy/medium/hard settings are just instances of a goal
09:00<planetmaker>Any option change is recorded in the savegame. Why would you forbid the player to change options though?
09:01<andythenorth>depends on how we think goals work....and how much personal taste a goal author gets to impose on players
09:01<planetmaker>I think to that end no provision has to be taken. People who want to play a scenario play it with the given settings - or don't
09:01<planetmaker>andythenorth, an author can impose everything. But a player can change (nearly) everything
09:02<planetmaker>except those things which simply cannot once the map is created
09:02<Zuu>Makes sense, or make a cheat to enable changing options.
09:02<planetmaker>I think no difference required
09:02<andythenorth>I think it would be handled same as cheat
09:02<planetmaker>well... cheat... yes. what is a cheat? ;-)
09:02<planetmaker>the magic bulldozer?
09:03<planetmaker>time reset?
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09:03<andythenorth>It's a cheat if an author limits players to 50 vehicles, and they enable 500 :)
09:03<Zuu>Cheats are things that are usefull for developers to test their code/ais/newgrfs etc.
09:03<planetmaker>hm... game start dialogue could use a "starting loan / max loan / starting money" setting ;-)
09:04<Zuu>Hmm, maybe that could be a first step, getting things from the dificulty window to the new game window?
09:04<planetmaker>andythenorth, the principle difficulty with that is: there is no single difference between scenario and savegame.
09:04<planetmaker>So it's hard to make it a difference
09:04<andythenorth>I'm not too bothered right now
09:04<planetmaker>Zuu, yes, sure
09:05<Zuu>Though it will possible require moving hightmap and some care for scenario editor. But that would be needed anyways for the overall goals.
09:06<andythenorth>some of the stuff in advanced settings would be baffling to most players (hmmm....what is the correct % for feeder leg profit anyway? I have no idea)
09:06<andythenorth>some of it is stuff that is not strictly a difficulty setting, but comes up often
09:06<planetmaker>yeah. The default
09:07<andythenorth>I'm about to use the words map/world/landscape interchangeably :)
09:07<andythenorth>Some things might be better belonging to the 'world' settings for a game, even though it could be argued they are advanced settings.
09:08<andythenorth>a slavish consistency can be bad :)
09:08<planetmaker>exactly. That's the snake pit I talked about in the very beginning ;-)
09:09<andythenorth>A lot of the stuff currently in 'advanced settings->economy' would be quite appropriate for 'world' settings
09:09*andythenorth wants to be systematic
09:12<Zuu>hmm, looking at the World Generation window. Perhaps you could divide it into landscape options eg. things that affects the landscape generated or you would use a height map instead, and the settings for things that the world generator would plop onto the land.
09:12<Zuu>Using tha division it would be easier to include the opotion to use a height map there.
09:13<planetmaker>sounds reasonable.
09:13<planetmaker>In any case it's getting too many options for a single window.
09:13<planetmaker>So some kind of tab'ed view might indeed come in handy there
09:14<andythenorth>yup, I'm making that assumption
09:14*planetmaker should get accustomed with the current GUI code.
09:14<planetmaker>which will be far easier than a year ago or so
09:14<andythenorth>planetmaker: so reviewing advanced settings, (using current trunk)....
09:15<andythenorth>*everything* under 'Interface' is fine where it is?
09:15<andythenorth>(i.e. it's not a 'difficulty' type setting)
09:16<planetmaker>yes, IIRC
09:16<planetmaker>the categories of the adv. settings in general make sense
09:17<planetmaker>there's not much to bother with them
09:17<andythenorth>I just want to be systematic about :)
09:17<planetmaker>main thing is cheats / options / new game / difficulty things
09:18<andythenorth>Well first we take the known knowns....then we deal with the known unkowns ;)
09:18<andythenorth>Some of the 'allow building....' are they really difficulty settings?
09:18<Zuu>why isn't build on slope a difficulty setting?
09:19<andythenorth>I wonder that
09:19<Zuu>Or building road stops on other companies road.
09:19<andythenorth>Same for 'airports never expire'
09:19<planetmaker>Zuu, only the traditional difficulty settings are difficulty settings.
09:19<planetmaker>No non-TTD ones were added. IIRC
09:20<Zuu>yep, for historical reasons none of the new ones has been added to difficulty.
09:20<andythenorth>Yep, but that's what we're talking about changing, right...
09:21<andythenorth>Ok. I've made a note about those points
09:21<andythenorth>So 'Vehicles'
09:21<andythenorth>'Routing' is all fine
09:21<frosch123>how about trashing difficulty settings completely? instead add profiles for advanced settings?
09:22<andythenorth>frosch123: could be the right conclusion....
09:22<quix>alright, thanks for help! this made it work:
09:22<quix>export CFLAGS='-I/usr/include/mysql'
09:22<quix>export LDFLAGS='-L/usr/lib/mysql -lmysqlclient'
09:22<andythenorth>Is 90' turns a difficulty setting, or a matter of taste?
09:23<frosch123>andythenorth: when 90° turns are allowed, the game is harder as trains may go where they shall not go
09:23<+glx>quix: using --CFLAGS and --LDFLAGS without export should work too
09:23<Sacro>frosch123: errm, tautology states a train can always go where it can go
09:23<frosch123>so, no, most settings are no difficulty settings, but rather taste settings
09:24<andythenorth>most are, but some might not be....
09:24<andythenorth>I am thinking 'difficulty / world' settings I guess. And I am also looking for things that come up a lot as questions
09:24<andythenorth>Autorenew? Comes up a lot in player questions....
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>i agree with adding profiles to advanced settings
09:25<andythenorth>Autorenew on/off seems like a world setting. The exact money / time seems like an advanced setting
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>but also some settings should get a "difficulty modifier"
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>like 50% for easy, 100% medium, 200% hard
09:25<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: but shall profiles affect all settings, or just a section of settings?
09:26<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: that depends...
09:26<frosch123>e.g. settings cartegories like: interface, world generation, company/client settings, game settings
09:27*andythenorth thinks that settings profiles would overlap somehow with the idea of a goals framework
09:27<andythenorth>(scripted scenarios)
09:27<planetmaker><frosch123> how about trashing difficulty settings completely? instead add profiles for advanced settings? <-- yes. That's what I think, too
09:27<planetmaker>just adding a difficulty button in the new game menu
09:27<planetmaker>and change the associated settings
09:27<planetmaker>(or skip difficulties at all)
09:28<andythenorth>Maintenance....any of that really a 'difficulty' setting
09:28<planetmaker>breakdowns is
09:29<planetmaker>andythenorth, overlapping with goals for settings is no issue
09:29<frosch123>is disabling path signals a difficulty setting?
09:29<planetmaker>besides goals don't exist ;-)
09:29<planetmaker>uh, they can be disabled?
09:29<frosch123>good point, maybe thay cannot :p
09:30<frosch123>anyway, i cannot remember having ever played one of the difficulty profiles
09:33*planetmaker neither
09:33<SmatZ>I remember I played with "Hard" and bankrupted soon
09:33<SmatZ>then I found the power of long-distance air trainsport :-p
09:33<planetmaker>Maybe indeed the easy/intermediate/hard settings could be converted to a settings profile. And then allow user-generated profiles in a 2nd step, too
09:34<andythenorth>that's kind of what I had in mind
09:34<planetmaker>sounds most reasonable.
09:34<planetmaker>And most extensible
09:34<SpComb>download configurations from Bananas!
09:34<andythenorth>then a 'goal' is that + some scripted rules + an optional map / newgrf / AI list
09:34<frosch123>yeah, but the profiles should not set all options to a certain value, but also allow "keep whatever previous value"
09:35*andythenorth thinks it's important that goals are not tied to a specific scenario
09:35<andythenorth>(if they ever exist)
09:35<planetmaker>frosch123, a profile should just set those values which it defines
09:35<frosch123>e.g. while disabling building on slope certainly makes the game harder, it is just annoying
09:36<frosch123>but maybe, some want "hard settings" to be annoying :)
09:36<andythenorth>but the sensible default is 'on'
09:36<andythenorth>so perhaps it can stay in advanced settings
09:36<planetmaker>frosch123, not every thing which affects difficulty would need to be changed ;-)
09:37<andythenorth>Slope steepness for trains 'world' or 'advanced'?
09:37<andythenorth>also weight multiplier
09:37<planetmaker>hm, for a start the current difficulty stuff could just be integrated in the newgame window / adv. settings
09:37<planetmaker>andythenorth, definitely advanced
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09:37<frosch123>andythenorth: that is why i prefer profiles, which can define values but do not have to. so if someone wants to post a "annoying hard" profile on the forums, he may enforce disabling building on slopes, ...
09:38<frosch123>just.. i cannot imagine a gui where you can define profiles, and which settings they contain
09:39<andythenorth>let's not worry about that
09:39<andythenorth>I can't imagine a gui where you define advanced varaction 2 either
09:39<andythenorth>but I can imagine a flat text file for profiles
09:40<frosch123>yup, that is easy :)
09:40<andythenorth>Railroad car speed limits....World / advanced?
09:40<planetmaker>frosch123, and it's easy to dump all current settings to a file. Then one can delete stuff from a text file
09:40<planetmaker>or - like the download window - make checkboxes which settings need exporting
09:41<planetmaker>andythenorth, anything non-terrain is not world ;-)
09:41<planetmaker>train settings definitely are not world settings
09:41<planetmaker>(in my understanding)
09:41<andythenorth>trains don't exist in the world?
09:41<andythenorth>trains are platonic entities?
09:41<planetmaker>then define what a "world" setting constitutes for you
09:42<planetmaker>it's not what you defined above as "map" setting IMHO
09:42<andythenorth>agreed....I'm sort of working it out as I go
09:42<planetmaker>which is terrain, size, climate, ...
09:42<planetmaker>and not an assortment of maybe-used settings
09:42<andythenorth>but also how some things behave that a player might care about and not want to go looking in advanced settings for
09:42<planetmaker>picking out single ones from the current adv. settings makes little sense
09:43<planetmaker>andythenorth, yes. But then that's everytime something else.
09:43<planetmaker>is driving side world / adv setting / or ... ?
09:43<andythenorth>probably a world setting
09:43<andythenorth>it will make sense when I get to the end of the list :)
09:43<planetmaker>I never touch it. I nearly forget about it. But I'm bothered if it's from my default
09:44<andythenorth>and also this argument is part of working out the answer :)
09:44<planetmaker>yeah. But you set it once and never need it again
09:44<planetmaker>so that's the argument to hide it actually
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09:44<andythenorth>I change it when I play a UK game, but that doesn't mean everyone will / should
09:44<planetmaker>and a similar argument goes for many settings. Unfortunately
09:45<andythenorth>which is why nearly everything in 'advanced settings' is correct
09:45<andythenorth>I'm just looking for the ones that I might have to try and fit into a gui design for setting up a game
09:45<Zuu>based on my idea to split new game gen in two parts (as a try to make a first small step):
09:45<Zuu>The upper part would change if you choose Load heightmap.
09:46<andythenorth>Zuu: if you imagined something like that combined with tabs for 'newgrfs', 'competitors' etc
09:46<andythenorth>that is what I have in mind
09:46<Zuu>Me too. I was just trying to figure out what the first step would be in order to go from talk to action. :-)
09:47<planetmaker>yes, me too, similar
09:47<andythenorth>planetmaker I'm just going to keep using 'world' where I mean 'setup new game'. It stops me getting confused with 'setup openttd application settings'
09:47<Zuu>haven't read the back log since I went afi (away from irc) while painting.
09:48<andythenorth>So anything in Advanced->Stations that would belong in 'world'
09:48<andythenorth>Airport noise limits?
09:48<planetmaker>uhm... your wording is confusing.
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09:49<frosch123>[15:46] <Zuu> The upper part would change if you choose Load heightmap. <- you also need climate and date for heightmaps :p
09:50<planetmaker>Would it make sense to get rid of the "map edges: manual / automatic"?
09:50<Zuu>Yep, I'm thinking about greying out all that is not needed for heighmaps.
09:50<planetmaker>I know that it makes a difference, but...
09:50<planetmaker>Zuu, I meant generally
09:51<frosch123>the advanced setting for disallowing terraforming at the border is mainly for compatiblity with older savegames
09:51<andythenorth>Advanced Settings -> Economy....
09:51<Zuu>I'm not satisified with "world objects", just couldn't come up with something better quickly.
09:51<andythenorth>We can sort the naming out later.
09:52<planetmaker>general settings
09:52<andythenorth>We can't name groups until we know what is in the groups :)
09:52<planetmaker>or properties
09:53<andythenorth>So things that might no belong in advanced settings....
09:53<andythenorth>town road layouts
09:53<andythenorth>founding towns
09:53<andythenorth>town growth speed
09:54<andythenorth>manual industry construction method
09:54<andythenorth>allow multiple similar industries per town
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09:54<andythenorth>smooth economy on / off
09:54<andythenorth>inflation on / off
09:56<planetmaker>frosch123, exactly. But as such it could be handled in the background without user visibility
09:58<planetmaker>hm, inflation on/off could be removed, if inflation 0% is accepted
10:01<andythenorth>good point
10:02<andythenorth>oh my, look at the time :o
10:02<andythenorth>I still haven't coded fields
10:04*andythenorth finishes looking at advanced settings
10:05<andythenorth>so of the existing difficulty settings
10:06<andythenorth>planetmaker, maybe it's time to sort out terms
10:06<andythenorth>So player journey is 'start screen' -> 'new game'. Can we call the process 'game setup'?
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10:09*andythenorth whistles for a bit
10:12<planetmaker>andythenorth, yes, 'game setup' sounds fine for that window which is opened by pressing the 'new game' button
10:13<andythenorth>so the known knowns.....
10:13<andythenorth>'map' or 'landscape' or 'terrain'
10:13<andythenorth>which do you prefer?
10:14<planetmaker>hm. Depends a bit what it comprises
10:14<planetmaker>if it's including #towns and industries: map.
10:15<planetmaker>if only size, climate, shape: landscape
10:15<andythenorth>may or not call include those things
10:15<andythenorth>may or may not include towns and industries
10:15<andythenorth>so the other knowns....
10:16<andythenorth>and then 'competitors' or 'AI'
10:16<andythenorth>which do you prefer?
10:16<planetmaker>let's call the first thing with 'maps'
10:16<planetmaker>then 'newgrfs'. 'AIs' and 'settings' for the advances settings as is
10:18<andythenorth>are you thinking 'advanced settings' would be available in 'game setup'?
10:18<andythenorth>or are you thinking of 'settings' as the 'other stuff'
10:19<planetmaker>I think that the adv. settings could be one tab of the 'game setup'. yes
10:19<planetmaker>it's something I always have to look at when generating a new map
10:20<andythenorth>ok, well keep that thought
10:20<andythenorth>so I think there is one other group of stuff, which could be something like
10:20<planetmaker>but there's IMHO no need to distinguish other settings and adv. settings. All difficulty stuff and some of the options go there, too
10:20<planetmaker>so then there's only one place to change all game relevant settings
10:21<andythenorth>I think advanced settings is totally overwhelming for some items
10:21<planetmaker>only base sets and language and possibly screen size / resolution remain in the options dialogue
10:21<andythenorth>options needs to die :)
10:21<planetmaker>andythenorth, yes. But for a proper game config it's good
10:21<andythenorth>ok. let's just agree what we definitely have
10:22<andythenorth>so: map | newgrfs | AIs | settings
10:22<planetmaker>or, we pick an arbitrary number of settings which fill one tab - call that 'settings' and add another 'adv. settings' with everything
10:22<andythenorth>yes I think there may be something which we just call 'other' or 'settings'
10:22<planetmaker>I think we can agree on those four tabs, yes
10:23<andythenorth>ok....digression. I intend that the first screen is something as simple as this
10:23<andythenorth>ignore the layout / graphic design
10:23<andythenorth>the important thing is making it obvious what to do
10:24*andythenorth thinks of two further things that could be removed from the splash....
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10:25<andythenorth>why do I need to edit advanced settings outside the context of a game or game setup?
10:26<planetmaker>you don't.
10:26<planetmaker>not if it's moved to game setup
10:26<andythenorth>exactly :)
10:26<andythenorth>but Check Online Content is actually needed
10:26<andythenorth>for scenarios etc
10:26<andythenorth>so I can't remove that :o
10:27<andythenorth>slightly revised :)
10:27<planetmaker>I'd keep the climates. And possibly make them a quick-start button for that climate
10:27<yorick>andythenorth: that's ugly
10:28<planetmaker>not the point, yorick ;-)
10:28<andythenorth>so when I said 'ignore the layout / graphic design' my internet connection must have lapsed :P
10:28<andythenorth>or I was speaking muppet or swedish chef or something
10:29<yorick>no, but that was already out of my screen
10:29<Zuu>I don't see why the climates should be in the splash. I only think it will be confusing.
10:29<planetmaker>Zuu, the beloved quick start ;-)
10:30<planetmaker>but then I guess I use that mostly when I test things
10:31<planetmaker>andythenorth, what about adding a "Quickstart" button directly to the main menu.
10:31<planetmaker>It will take a random climate, and some other things also randomized and "go".
10:31<planetmaker>The quickstart thing is quite nice with e.g. FreeOrion
10:32<planetmaker>just click and jump a game
10:32<planetmaker>no nothing required
10:32<planetmaker>then "new game" would be renamed to "configure new game" or similar
10:33<yorick>I'd say "start random game" and "new game"
10:33<planetmaker>And the buttons could all be one row or so
10:33<Zuu>I don't think you need to rename "new game" just put the quick start at the top.
10:33<planetmaker>ok :-)
10:33<planetmaker>uh... much to do we have now :-)
10:34<Zuu>Yep. first document what has been agreed on and work out a plan on which steps to start with.
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10:35<Zuu>Perhaps see what things can be done independent and what things depend on other things. Eg. quick start can be changed already today.
10:36<andythenorth>I think the climates might return....because Chris Sawyer intended them to be there :P
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10:36<Zuu>Maybe we need to keep them as they seem to be the most holy part of the game.
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10:37<andythenorth>planetmaker: so I've killed 'Game Options'
10:37<andythenorth>and 'Advanced Settings'
10:37<andythenorth>so how do I change the resolution?
10:37<Zuu>Screen options? :-p
10:38<planetmaker>andythenorth, I think an 'options' dialogue to change the language must remain available from the main menu
10:39<andythenorth>Tis a good point
10:39<Zuu>So a minor options dialog from the main menu with language, resolution, screen size and maybe sound volume.
10:39<planetmaker>and then the base sets used could (should?) remain there, too
10:39<andythenorth>I think they are advanced options
10:40<planetmaker>or are they game options?
10:40<Zuu>depends on if "game" refer to the progarm or a game instance that you play.
10:40<Zuu>program options?
10:40<planetmaker>hm. yes
10:40<andythenorth>well they affect everything
10:40<andythenorth>but increasingly players will just see opengfx
10:41<planetmaker>that's why they could remain in the game options.
10:41*planetmaker is undecided
10:41<andythenorth>if they download the game from some d/l service or preinstall....they'll never even know about the original graphics
10:41<andythenorth>it puts something on the first screen that could go wrong?
10:41<andythenorth>what happens if I have no windows graphics installed?
10:41<planetmaker>half of the current bug reports are by people who use OpenGFX
10:42<andythenorth>if the windows graphics are not available, does the menu show them?
10:42<planetmaker>nothing shows then
10:42<planetmaker>we have no font
10:42<andythenorth>oh :o
10:42<planetmaker>crash boom bang
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10:43<andythenorth>and they affect the appearance of all windows....maybe the base graphics set is definitely in a core 'options' window
10:44<andythenorth>I think sound is different. If I had no knowledge of legacy stuff, why would I ever change the sounds to the originals?
10:44<planetmaker>andythenorth, not to the original. But maybe to "super duper new free yippieh sound set"
10:44<andythenorth>but that's content....
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>idea: one can ctrl+click on a setting to lock it from being changed with the preset (similar to transparency settings)
10:45<planetmaker>nice idea, Eddi|zuHause :-)
10:45<planetmaker>we already have the lock icon for that
10:45<Zuu>I think its a good to keep the base sets togeather and not scatter them.
10:45<andythenorth>for why?
10:45<andythenorth>the sounds / music seem to be analagous to newgrfs, AIs etc
10:45<andythenorth>without base graphics the game is broken
10:46<Zuu>I don't see how selection of base sonud differ from base graphics.
10:46<planetmaker>andythenorth, not quite. They're not a per-game thing
10:46*andythenorth thinks
10:46<planetmaker>a game does not configure them
10:46<Zuu>if you have no graphics, then OpenTTD don't start.
10:46<planetmaker>it configures settings, AI and newgrf, though
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>base sets/language/resolution looks like a good thing to keep separate
10:47<planetmaker>town names and driving side need to be removed from options, though
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>but the town names should be separated from that
10:47<andythenorth>but nor does a game configure screen shot format, save game name format, mini-map colour, window snap radius
10:47*andythenorth thinks sounds are just 'content' to most players
10:47*andythenorth is often wrong though
10:48<planetmaker>andythenorth, sounds are content... but it's possible to define sound newgrfs. So...
10:48<Zuu>sure but these are the _base_ sounds and therefor they have more in commmon with the _base_ graphics.
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: imho base sets should be a "set up once and forget about it" job
10:48<andythenorth>In which case they go in Advanced Settings
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>whereas newgrfs etc. are a "change for every game" thing
10:48<andythenorth>Advanced Settings -> Sound
10:49<planetmaker>nope :-) base = required for OpenTTD to run. Adv. settings are not required
10:49<andythenorth>town names look probable for 'map' to me
10:49<planetmaker>It's only so that "no sound" ships with openttd
10:49*Ammler would like to be able to change base sets
10:50<planetmaker>but indeed it's a question, whether not some of the current adv. settings->UI should be moved to another place. Jointly with the remaining current options.
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10:50<Darkdjinn>hello there
10:50<Darkdjinn>is there any Staff or translation manager online ?
10:50<andythenorth>planetmaker: Agreed
10:50<Zuu>Darkdjinn: Probably, but it is easiest if you just ask your question I think.
10:51<planetmaker>so... splitting adv. settings: (local) GUI stuff and game-specific stuff.
10:51<Darkdjinn>the question i mailed but i can ask as well. its if the team can add Thai language to the game ?
10:51<planetmaker>then the Options view would become a tab'ed view similar to the game setup view
10:51<Zuu>pm: that makes sense
10:51<andythenorth>planetmaker: GUI | Gameplay
10:52<planetmaker>yes. gameplay accessible via the game setup dialogue
10:52<Darkdjinn>and where the fots can be downloaded for other asian languages that i wish to ask to
10:52<planetmaker>and gui via the game options from main menu
10:52<Zuu>Darkdjinn: I see that Thai is already at
10:52<andythenorth>and what about in game?
10:52<Terkhen>Darkdjinn: Thai appears in the language list already
10:52<andythenorth>planetmaker: what if there is one 'advanced settings' window with two tabs?
10:52<Zuu>It is only 36.3% complete though, so if you want to help translating that would be very helpful.
10:53<Darkdjinn>my wife will assist with that in a few days i think so i can maybe help with Thai yes
10:53*andythenorth goes to visit the OS X
10:53<Darkdjinn>but where do i get the fonts for all laguages in use in game ?
10:53<planetmaker>ingame the same thing as the 'game setup' - but the first page might be completely grayed out as it cannot be changed
10:53<Terkhen>Darkdjinn: <-- check this then
10:53<andythenorth>planetmaker: screen resolution *can* be changed
10:54<planetmaker>andythenorth, yes, but that's not a 'game setup' but an 'option'
10:54<planetmaker>they remain accessible via the 'options menu' ingame - right as now
10:55<planetmaker>no need to prepare anything special there
10:55<Zuu>Darkdjinn: you probably have a font in your system already for asian languages.
10:55<andythenorth>can we represent this as a tree in ascii text?
10:55<planetmaker>I guess...
10:55<Zuu>In openttd.cfg you will have to specify a font to use.
10:56<Darkdjinn>anyone who knows where i can download the fonts for OTT to use symbol or laguages that is not aplhpabetic as ariabian or asian languages ?
10:57<+glx>there's no such thing, you just need to use the fonts available on your computer
10:57<Zuu>Darkdjinn: What operating system do you use?
10:57<Darkdjinn>win xp SP3
10:57<Zuu>Hmm, and why do we not have a wiki article about this? or why am I not finding it by searching for "font"?
10:58<Zuu> <-- might be of some help
10:58<planetmaker> <-- similar to that, andythenorth
10:59<Zuu>IIRC it is the name of the font you set. So eg. open word and find a font that works for you and put that name in openttd.cfg.
11:00<+glx>or just let openttd autodetect the right font
11:01<Zuu>planetmaker: looks good
11:01<Darkdjinn>where are the fonts located in OS under winxp ?
11:01<Darkdjinn>windows/fonts ?
11:02<andythenorth>planetmaker: bah you beat me :P
11:02<andythenorth>I had to do chores :|
11:02<Darkdjinn>how do i add the locate in OTT cfg to make it detect there ?
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11:03<andythenorth>planetmaker: I'm not sure how 'settings' works in your model
11:03<andythenorth>how does it relate to existing 'advanced settings'?
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11:04<Zuu>Hello Yexo
11:04<andythenorth>also screenshot format and autosave frequency can go into advanced settings
11:04<Yexo>good evening
11:04<andythenorth>hi yorick
11:04<andythenorth>Yexo: sorry
11:04<andythenorth>meh silly auto-complete
11:07<+glx>Darkdjinn: you don't need to set anything in openttd.cfg, by default it will try to find a font able to display the chosen language
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11:11<Darkdjinn>in which folder shall the fonts be in or ?
11:13<+glx>fonts are where windows put them
11:13<+glx>openttd just asks windows
11:14<planetmaker>hello Yexo
11:14<planetmaker>andythenorth: for a starter I'd add the current adv. settings there
11:14<planetmaker>as a 2nd step it could be split in two: settings and adv. settings
11:15<planetmaker>where 'settings' is a selection of 'important' settings
11:15<planetmaker>But I'm not sure whether that's sensible
11:15<planetmaker>I'd make it a bit like the current adv. settings dialogue, just a bit re-worked
11:15<andythenorth>I was thinking that adv. settings just lives in its own window as now
11:15<planetmaker>possibly with the option for pre-sets
11:16<andythenorth>but I guess it could change
11:16<planetmaker>it could. But that's - opposed to the general change discussed - actually only a detail ;-)
11:16<andythenorth>if players think that to setup a game they go through each tab, then adv. settings hits them with a lot of stuff
11:16<planetmaker>hehe. yes
11:16<andythenorth>so it might want to be hidden behind a click somewhere
11:17<andythenorth>that's why they are 'advanced settings' :)
11:17<planetmaker>well... but either non (then the tab is just 'advanced settings') or it's too many
11:17<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19772 /trunk/src/ai/ai_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3818]: the break-on-log-message feature could trigger an assert (Zuu)
11:17<andythenorth>I think there might be a 'general' tab as opposed to 'settings'
11:17<planetmaker>general is the first tab ;-)
11:18<andythenorth>there's a bunch of stuff that are more general than 'map'
11:18<andythenorth>like economy settings, breakdowns etc
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11:18*andythenorth looks at existing 'difficulty' screen
11:18-!-mode/#openttd [+o orudge] by ChanServ
11:19<planetmaker>yes. But if you try to sort it out - you either end up with a separate tab for each - or you just re-use the current adv. settings as is
11:19<andythenorth>nah I misled you there, I'm thinking *most* of adv. settings is fine. It's the stuff in 'difficulty' that needs looking at...
11:20<planetmaker>well. I'd skip that except a button in the settings? map? tab
11:20<planetmaker>and just change the affected things wherever they are
11:20<planetmaker>most should be in the adv. settings anyway
11:20<andythenorth>So 'general' things: loan; interest rate; running costs; breakdowns; subsidy multiplier; economy; disasters
11:21<andythenorth>train reversing *definitely* an advanced thing
11:21<planetmaker>hm. ok. Let's make that the 'settings'
11:21<andythenorth>City council attitude?
11:21<planetmaker>and the current adv. settings keep their name
11:21<andythenorth>Zuu: how do AIs interact with 'construction speed of competitors' ?
11:22<planetmaker>so: map | newgrf | AI | settings | adv. settings
11:23<planetmaker>andythenorth: I'm not quite sure though whether that's sensible. But for a starter that might work with settings and adv. settings
11:23<planetmaker>then the 'settings preset' (aka difficulty) might go to settings, too
11:24<andythenorth>adv. settings is a button on the 'settings' tab?
11:24<Yexo><andythenorth> Zuu: how do AIs interact with 'construction speed of competitors' ? <- on "very fast" AIs get a tick every game tick, on "fast" they get a tick every second game tick, on "normal" they get a tick every 4th game tick, etc.
11:25<planetmaker>andythenorth: might also work for a starter
11:25<andythenorth>Zuu so the setting still matters?
11:25<Yexo>I'm not Zuu, but yes :p
11:25<andythenorth>planetmaker: the adv. settings would remain available from the menu in game as now - for convenience
11:26<planetmaker>andythenorth: but it doesn't quite make sense to distinguish the current options / difficulty / adv. settings things
11:26<planetmaker>they're all the same. Just different names attached
11:26<andythenorth>I know, but we've found we can't consolidate them easily so far
11:26<planetmaker>transitionally that's the way to go, yes
11:26<planetmaker>but only transitionally
11:27*planetmaker created a 'gui' repo on the local HDD
11:27<andythenorth>I still think some of the 'options' proposed above are advanced settings or settings.
11:27<andythenorth>like 'drive side'
11:28<planetmaker>yes. Those two
11:28<planetmaker>and we already agreed on that, not? ;-)
11:28<andythenorth>measuring units?
11:28<planetmaker>not sure. It's a GUI thing
11:28<planetmaker>so it belongs there, too, I guess
11:29<planetmaker>But it's part of the (current) adv. settings which actually should go to options :-)
11:29<andythenorth>planetmaker: I'm just trying to think if there's a way to eliminate a separate 'options' dialog
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>i think the units could be advanced settings
11:29<planetmaker>andythenorth: no, there isn't
11:29<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: it's like language...
11:29<andythenorth>planetmaker you know how the mac can have a monitor resolution menubar widget?
11:29<andythenorth>things like that...
11:30<planetmaker>andythenorth: there are two different things: user interface --> options
11:30<planetmaker>game affect --> adv. settings
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>maybe, but in a NARS or UKRS game, you might want to use imperial, but with a DBSet game, you might want to use metric?
11:30<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: maybe :-)
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: some current advanced settings only affect user interface
11:30<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that's how I feel about it....but lets stick to trying to kill the options dialog
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>like all in the "interface" section
11:30<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: I know. It was an argument to move those to options
11:31<planetmaker>as we plan to move adv. settings into a tab of the 'new game' dialogue. Where those make absolutely no sense
11:31<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i don't think that is a goal that should be aimed at
11:31<andythenorth>for why?
11:31<planetmaker>andythenorth: I'm with Eddi|zuHause
11:31<planetmaker>you cannot remove the access to the option "choose language"
11:32<planetmaker>I thought we were already past that?
11:32<planetmaker>discuss that again?
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11:32<andythenorth>well we agree that resolution, base sets and language don't belong in adv. settings?
11:33<planetmaker>yes. So they're options
11:33<Darkdjinn>where on the website can i see which languages is not 100 % translated ?
11:33<andythenorth>why did we agree they aren't adv. settings?
11:33<planetmaker>And things like "savegame date format" is one of those, too. As it's nothing which deals with 'new game settings'
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>Darkdjinn: under
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>as the topic clearly says ;)
11:33<planetmaker>andythenorth: anything which does not affect the game is by this definition part of options
11:34<planetmaker>which is much of the current interface section of the adv. settings
11:34<andythenorth>ok that might be the leap we need to make
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: you mean "game mechanics"
11:34<andythenorth>so I hadn't quite made that leap yet
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>of course also interface settings affect the game...
11:34<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: yes. But you just told me that "measurement units" should be part of that :-P
11:35<Darkdjinn>is there a list of those 2161 words that need to be translated ?
11:35<Darkdjinn>from thai that is
11:35<planetmaker>if you log into the webtranslator: yes
11:36<Darkdjinn>i will make account first
11:36<planetmaker>or download the source
11:36<planetmaker>web translator is recommended, though
11:37*andythenorth wonders if we can get to just one 'options' dialog and one 'game settings' dialog
11:37<andythenorth>adv. settings being split between the two
11:37<andythenorth>or maybe that's bad
11:37<andythenorth>no it's good
11:38<andythenorth>planetmaker: is this roughly what you're thinking....
11:38<Darkdjinn>there now that is complete
11:39<andythenorth>combine options into adv. settings (adding tree nodes for 'base sets', 'language' etc.)
11:39<andythenorth>they're not advanced
11:39*andythenorth has a think
11:40<andythenorth>If adv. settings was 'Preferences' that would do it
11:41<planetmaker>andythenorth: not quite what I'm thinking
11:41<planetmaker>I'm thinking of keeping two: the 'game settings' and the 'game options'
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11:42<andythenorth>but no third dialog...?
11:42<planetmaker>no. why three?
11:42<planetmaker>there's some settings in the game creation
11:42<andythenorth>don't worry about it. I don't want's just a question of agreeing some names I think
11:42<planetmaker>and there's the options from the main menu
11:43<andythenorth>and adv. settings?
11:43<planetmaker>that's sub-summed under settings. Those which affect the game behaviour. Those which are saved with a game
11:43<planetmaker>with a map
11:43<planetmaker>basically everything saved in a .sav file needs to be in the (adv.) settings.
11:44<andythenorth>that distinction makes sense
11:44<andythenorth>from an implementation perspective
11:44<Rubidium>planetmaker: where? What?
11:44<planetmaker>Whether they're now in a tab directly or accessible via a button there
11:44<planetmaker>Rubidium: ?
11:44<Rubidium>oh, think TB already handled it
11:44<planetmaker>ah, yes
11:45<planetmaker>andythenorth: the implementation side has not to be changed. We only talk GUI
11:45<planetmaker>the backend may (and should!) stay as it is.
11:45<andythenorth>ok lets test....
11:46<andythenorth>so I want to change screen resolution...
11:46<andythenorth>from in game...
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11:50<Darkdjinn>funny thai does not work in IRC :)
11:50<planetmaker>andythenorth: as usual you use the options dialogue
11:50<planetmaker>nothing changes
11:51<+glx>Darkdjinn: it does if your client is set properly
11:51<andythenorth>planetmaker so I'm in game....I want to change the function of the scroll wheel....
11:52<planetmaker>go to options
11:52<frosch123>หวัดดี Darkdjinn :)
11:52<frosch123>(mind i just got that from some random dictionary)
11:52<+glx>planetmaker: fail it's not thai
11:52<planetmaker>mind that I don't know what I wrote - and that's arabic ;-)
11:53<andythenorth>planetmaker: I'm in game....I want to change window snap radius?
11:53<planetmaker>there's just two dialogues: game settings and options
11:54<planetmaker>game setting creates the game (and remains available ingame with grayed out stuff)
11:54<planetmaker>and options - which will also remain available ingame
11:54<andythenorth>so quite a lot of current adv. settings gets moved to 'options'?
11:54<planetmaker>but the options is directly availabe from openttd main menu while the game settings are what you get by clicking 'new game'
11:54<planetmaker>andythenorth: yes. all GUI stuff
11:55<andythenorth>I think we're clear on that
11:55<planetmaker>everything which is really local to _you_ - and not to your game ;-)
11:55<andythenorth>'options' is the equivalent of 'OpenTTD preferences'
11:56<planetmaker>I guess so :-)
11:56<planetmaker>Could even be called that way then
11:56<andythenorth>it would make sense to mac users :P
11:56<andythenorth>if there are any left
11:58<frosch123>Darkdjinn: you have to set you client to utf-8. then you can enter text or copy&paste as you wish
11:59<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19773 /trunk/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Add: [NoAI] AIIndustry::GetIndustryID(TileIndex)
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12:03<Darkdjinn>i think IRC is not supporting real thai font only some
12:03<andythenorth>planetmaker: afk
12:03<andythenorth>working on something though
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12:14<Zuu>Oh Yexo has entered a NoAI mode :-)
12:15<Zuu>Two nice commits.
12:15<Yexo>thanks for the patch :)
12:16<Yexo>AITile.IsIndustryTile <- you can implement that now as AIIndustry::IsValidIndustry(AIIndustry.GetIndustryID(tile))
12:17<Zuu>Yep, and you can store the id and llocation of an industry to detect if it has been closed down or not.
12:18<Yexo>it'd be better to rely on the events for that
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12:18<Zuu>Probably, unless they somehow get lost.
12:19<Zuu>But by default, the events are better, then if a connection do not make profit, you could manualy check if the intustry remains.
12:22<Zuu>I was thinking about (yesterday) if it would be possible that the API could give some more information regarding if other players use an industry or not. There is the function to get number of adjacent stations, but it would be quite expansive to filter out your own stations from that number.
12:23<Zuu>The purpose of this information would be to implement a setting to make the AI not compete about industries used by other players.
12:23<Yexo>basically that would be FS#2776 (more information about other companies) combined with a function to get all accepted cargoes for a station
12:24<Yexo>if you don't want to compete at all you could check % transported > 0
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12:24<Zuu>That works with a month delay or so.
12:25<Zuu>I will probably do that for now.
12:25<andythenorth>planetmaker: there would be no reason to not shortcut to 'game settings' tabs like this:
12:26<planetmaker>I have to agree, that would be feasable and probably even desirable.
12:27<planetmaker>But your screenshot shows: there's yet another place of things which could go into one of 'gameplay settings' or 'openttd preferences' ;-)
12:27<andythenorth>makes me think that there is something weird going on with how transparency is arranged in that menu....but that's for another day
12:27<planetmaker>(or transparancy options)
12:28<Zuu>CluelessPLus use "(production - transported) * income per unit" to evaluate new connections, so even without the transported > 0 condition it will not find sources with high ratio transported interesting.
12:28<Yexo>andythenorth: how about removing all *displayed and transparant* from that dropdown and move them to the transparency options window?
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12:28<andythenorth>Yexo: I considered it
12:28<andythenorth>me and planetmaker have started a project of rearranging settings....but I think transparency can be safely left out of that for today :)
12:29<Yexo>Zuu: a coal mine that produces 2000 items per month but has 50% transported is less interesting then a coal mine that produces 1000 items per month where nothing is transported
12:30<Zuu>Hmm, you could fix that by multiplying "transported" by a factor > 1.
12:31<Zuu>That factor could be labeled "resistance against competeing" and I get yet another AI setting :-)
12:32<andythenorth>planetmaker: so now I'm back where I started the day, looking at a newgrf gui mockup :)
12:32<andythenorth>but I might stop and look at some nfo for fields before frosch123 disappears from irc :)
12:32<Zuu>And you haven't made the field grf yet? ;-)
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12:39<andythenorth>frosch123: so do I need to enable cb 0x155 with industry prop 21 or 22?
12:39<andythenorth>I am reading the code, but out of my depth :)
12:46<frosch123>you have to specify to industry to plant fields
12:47<andythenorth>and then handle cb 0x155
12:47<frosch123>somewhere in the industry behaviour flags
12:47<frosch123>the callback itself does not need activation
12:48<andythenorth>so cb 0x155 is 9Bh when I check it? Or am I being dumb?
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12:52<frosch123>0x155 is already hex
12:52*andythenorth facepalms
12:52<planetmaker>ha. Drive side and town names moved to game creation dialogue :-9
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12:53<andythenorth>ach, lets see if I can blow up the game
12:54<Yexo>planetmaker: I think it's possible to change the drive side as long as no (road?) vehicles have been build
12:54<planetmaker>Yexo: I guess so
12:55<planetmaker>Still it makes sense to move it away from the options to the game creation dialogue
12:55<Zuu>the game creation dialogue will be accesible from inside the game if they haven't changed that in the proposal when I've been away.
12:55<andythenorth>call it 'game setup' or 'game settings'
12:55<andythenorth>and it has tabbed panes
12:55<Yexo>ah, then it does make sense indeed
12:55<planetmaker>andy but not yet :-)
12:56<planetmaker>but that's the goal, yes
12:56<andythenorth>planetmaker: obv. not :)
12:56<Zuu>Do you plan to set up a project space at eg dev.openttdcoop org or something and collect the ideas there?
12:56*andythenorth crosses fingers
12:57<planetmaker>probably a good idea, Zuu :-)
12:58<planetmaker>9 hours of discussion shouldn't just go to the waste bin ;-)
12:59*andythenorth wishes his compile would go faster
13:01<andythenorth>frosch123: well I managed to prevent any fields getting built at all :P
13:01<frosch123>great :)
13:01<frosch123>what did you try? :p
13:02<andythenorth>I can work through some debugging myself, I've probably made silly errors
13:03<andythenorth>lots of them
13:04<frosch123>doesn't nforenum complain about the first sprite?
13:05<frosch123>there is no industry id after the 89, and there is no callback result 0x8000
13:05<andythenorth>all of those things :)
13:05<andythenorth>get complained about
13:05<andythenorth>I am fixing them
13:10<andythenorth>frosch123: do I need to set tile prop 08 to 0xFE to have this work?
13:10<andythenorth>spec implies yes...
13:11<frosch123>yes, you need to
13:11<frosch123>and you also cannot use that tile in a regular industry layout then
13:18<andythenorth>frosch123: the game thinks this is invalid action 0
13:18<frosch123>what does it say?
13:19<andythenorth>I must have done something wrong and then fixed it
13:19<andythenorth>I have an advance :)
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13:21<andythenorth>having an action 3 for the tile might help :)
13:22<ccfreak2k>andythenorth, armageddon!
13:24*andythenorth just found an easy way to simulate grain elevators :P
13:24<andythenorth>might be overkill though
13:25<andythenorth>frosch123: ^
13:25<frosch123>are they player destroyable? does the game crash when you remove the industry?
13:26<andythenorth>they are player destroyable :)
13:27<andythenorth>and the game crashes when I removed the industry
13:27<andythenorth>want a crash log? Or would you prefer the grf?
13:27<frosch123>i guess the grf
13:28<andythenorth>I've hacked it together, the fault could be mine
13:28<andythenorth>do you have a FIRS checkout? I could give you a diff
13:28<frosch123>sure i have a firs checkout :)
13:28*andythenorth wonders how to diff
13:28<frosch123>hg diff >bla.diff
13:31<ccfreak2k>Fields of bulldozers.
13:31<andythenorth>the diff might freak out due to an uncommitted change in a graphics file, so I included the grf
13:33<andythenorth>interestingly the tiles are building foundations on slopes
13:34<andythenorth>and I just got an assert from the minimap
13:34<planetmaker>lol @ founations on fields :-)
13:34<frosch123>actually fields on foundations :p
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13:35<planetmaker>is good for rice fields ;-)
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13:37*andythenorth waits for frosch123 to point out obvious nfo mistakes :(
13:38<frosch123>well, the crashes are my fault :)
13:39<frosch123>but you could test the animation control callback to remove tiles on their own
13:43<frosch123>i guess stay away from the smallmap for now :p
13:44*andythenorth codes for cb 25
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19774 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: czech - 33 changes by Hadez
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: korean - 3 changes by junho2813
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: portuguese - 3 changes by JayCity
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: russian - 24 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: slovenian - 3 changes by ntadej
13:46<frosch123>oh well, i guess there is a lot of work left :s
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13:47<andythenorth>worth it though :)
13:50<planetmaker>I'm just beaten with blindness. Where are the strings displayed in the adv. settings associated with an entry?
13:55<planetmaker>ah.... right :-) Thanks
13:56<__ln__>who wants to commit a critical patch related to full english breakfast?
14:00<SmatZ>mmm bacon and eggs
14:01<yorick>no grf sprite(except real sprites) can actually contain decimal data, right?
14:01<frosch123>is it a then/than, safe/save or sucessfull/successful patch?
14:01<__ln__>the former
14:02<yorick>nvm afk
14:02<frosch123>yorick: there are escapes, and strings, and ..
14:03<SmatZ>only 6 occurences?
14:03*andythenorth wonders how long this will take to blow up
14:04<__ln__>yes, well, it may not cover all wrong thens.
14:04<andythenorth>longer than I though
14:06<andythenorth>frosch123: the land info tool exciting reports the tiles as 'arable farm (under construction)'
14:07<frosch123>hmm, what should it report there?
14:07<frosch123>houses have a description callback
14:08<andythenorth>default game reports 'Fields'
14:08<andythenorth>perhaps Fields (for INDUSTRY NAME)
14:08<frosch123>but that fails once you plant other stuff than fields :)
14:09<andythenorth>ok so maybe the cb for description then
14:10<andythenorth>I don't have to enable cb 25 for tiles do I?
14:10<andythenorth>can't see any spec saying I do
14:10<frosch123>Triggers for callback 25 (11) <- property 11
14:11<andythenorth>ah prop 11 :)
14:11<frosch123>only bit 0 and 1 are available for fields
14:11<frosch123>that is, fields can only trigger themself, and are not triggered by the industry
14:13<CIA-6>OpenTTD: smatz * r19775 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Fix: improper use of 'then' in few comments (ln)
14:15<andythenorth>frosch123: trying to close fields neither blows up nor acts as expected :|
14:17<frosch123>hmm, maybe i patched the wrong function :p
14:17<andythenorth>maybe I wrote the wrong nfo
14:17<frosch123>yeah, i patched cb 26, not 25
14:18<frosch123>i guess both would make sense
14:19*andythenorth tests cb 26
14:21<frosch123> <- updated
14:21<frosch123>now both cb 25 and 26 should work, but the value was changed from fd to fc
14:21<frosch123>however, stay away from minimap, and do not close industries :p
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14:27<andythenorth>frosch123: fieldss removing themselves now seems to work
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14:29*andythenorth thinks this will work for forests as well....there's plenty of animation control available to make it interesting
14:29<frosch123>so, at least some stuff works :)
14:29<andythenorth>want an updated grf?
14:30<frosch123>yup, i guess then i can debug the rest over the week :s
14:30<frosch123>diff is enough
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14:31<andythenorth>diff included ^
14:34<frosch123>lots of houses are planted and then razed again :p
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14:36<andythenorth>it's quite brutal :)
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14:38<planetmaker>lol :-)
14:38<planetmaker>killing fields in a new meaning ,eh?
14:38<planetmaker>and that in a peaceful game like this
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14:47<andythenorth>frosch123: what results will field tiles get in resp. of tile var 43?
14:48<frosch123>0xFFFFFFFF if the industry no longer exists, else the usual value
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14:49<andythenorth>so signed (for negative x or y)?
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14:51<Ammler>wow, what a huge description field on the new window :-)
14:52<Yexo>could be useful for setting parameters with
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14:55<andythenorth>kogut just posted the equivalent of planetmaker's suggestion
14:57<Ammler>well, it also depends how the window behaves on resize
14:58<frosch123>wow, the new gui looks quite nice! (wrt. whitespace, label colours and such)
15:03<Alberth>Ammler: both lists get about 1/2 of the vertical extra space
15:05<planetmaker> <-- andythenorth
15:05<frosch123>hmm, i guess there is a way to detect how many parameters are used by a newgrf. so we could display one parameter per row, and allow editing them separately
15:05<planetmaker>frosch123: I'm not so sure about that assumption...
15:05<frosch123>i thought about checking for actiond which assign only if not yet assigned
15:06<Yexo>that doesn't detect those parameters where 0 is the default value
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15:07<frosch123>hmm, ok, maybe it is too much effort then
15:07<Alberth>planetmaker: you are going for a 2 screen wide gui? :p
15:08<planetmaker>Alberth: it's not meant to be one window. But to show changes to both at the same time
15:08<Alberth>phew :)
15:08<planetmaker>(driving side + town names got moved there from options)
15:08<Zuu>planetmaker: If you plan to start doing small movements like this, perhaps do some kind of grouping like the image I posted before. It will of course be re-made later with the tab-views but so we don't have a total mess untill then. :-)
15:09<planetmaker>and let's state: yes, GUI changes are easier than before your changes, Alberth :-)
15:09<Zuu>You could to make it easy, just put things like drive side below the landscape stuff.
15:09<planetmaker>Zuu: that will need doing, yes
15:10<planetmaker>But IMHO the next step would rather be to add a tab thingy
15:10<planetmaker>One row of buttons doesn't kill it.
15:10<planetmaker>But it's one place less for real game options.
15:10<planetmaker>So this is - IMHO - a good change even without anything else following ;-)
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15:12<planetmaker>but adding more to the window would kill the game start window, I'm with you there :-)
15:12<frosch123>looking at difficulties: initial loan, inflation, running cost, breakdowns, subsidy multiplier, construction cost, recessions, train reversing, disasters and city tolerance are left. all into advanced settings?
15:12<Zuu>If you plan to incoperate the NewGRF + AI stuff from start, we might concider implementing frames so that the NewGRF Setting window class type can change into Frame and then that frame is included in the world gen window. This way not *everything* has to go in the same class.
15:12<planetmaker>frosch123: yes.
15:12<planetmaker>except maybe disasters
15:13<frosch123>where would you put disasters then? :p
15:13<planetmaker>the world generation :-P
15:13<Zuu>Though, I don't know what the devs opinion is on that, but I would probably try to not cramp everything in the same class.
15:13<planetmaker>frosch123: for a starter I'd actually add them to the 2nd tab of the world generation window
15:14<frosch123>Zuu: imo putting everything in one window is a bad idea. too much complexity for the neebie
15:14<planetmaker>(which would then mimic the difficulty settings and offer a button to open the adv. settings
15:14<andythenorth>everyone is always so concerned about the newbie :)
15:14<Zuu>frosch123: The window will have tabs.
15:14<andythenorth>rightly so
15:14<planetmaker>then, next, most would be moved to adv. settings and some selected, often used ones added there
15:14<planetmaker>for quick access
15:14<planetmaker>sounds reasonable?
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15:14<frosch123>planetmaker: what qualifies them to get their own window? imo they fit perfectly between the other advanced settings
15:15<planetmaker>yes, they do :-)
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15:15<planetmaker>I guess a settings tab could copy those settings which cannot be changed on a running game
15:15<frosch123>what is the difference between initial load, inflation and "no inflation" on the other side. breakdowns vs. realistic acceleration, recession vs. smooth economy, train reversing vs. 90 degree turns, city tolerance vs. airport noise?
15:15<planetmaker>so that they're reviewed before starting
15:16<planetmaker>hehe :-)
15:16<planetmaker>frosch123: you could alternatively read the logs of this channel since about 10am :-P
15:16<frosch123>hmm, why can't you change intial loan in game?
15:16<planetmaker>yes: there's no difference
15:17<frosch123>same about interest
15:17<planetmaker>that's one of the reasons we want to get rid of difficulty settings
15:17<Rubidium>frosch123: what's the point in changing the initial loan?
15:17<Zuu>frosch123: The world gen dialog will be accesible from in game, with the settings that can't be changed grayed out.
15:17<planetmaker>Rubidium: difficulty
15:17<Rubidium>planetmaker: really?
15:17<frosch123>Rubidium: rename it to "maximum loan"
15:17<planetmaker>Rubidium: yes. With more loan I can borrow more and build a bigger more profitable route from the start.
15:18<andythenorth>planetmaker: it's looking good
15:18<Rubidium>yeah, okay... you're right... finding the maximum loan and increasing your loan is more difficult
15:18<andythenorth>but I think when you start trying to fit in height map stuff as well, you'll find you want that screen for 'other'
15:18<andythenorth>or 'gameplay settings' :)
15:18<Rubidium>planetmaker: that's not the initial loan, but the initial MAXIMUM loan
15:18<frosch123>[21:17] <Zuu> frosch123: The world gen dialog will be accesible from in game, with the settings that can't be changed grayed out. <- that is were you can pm contratict the discussion of the day. you remove the stupid difficulty window, but create a new window?
15:18<Ammler>hmm, I have a silly gui request: Might it be possible to move the close "X" to the right edge?
15:19<Rubidium>Ammler: use Arabic or Hebrew
15:19<planetmaker>frosch123: not quite
15:19<Vornicus>I think there's enough buttons on the right already.
15:19<Ammler>is there a WM, which has that on the left?
15:19<@peter1138>ubuntu's latest
15:19<frosch123>Ammler: just switch to a rtl language
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15:19<planetmaker>we want to move everything you need to consider to the window(s) behind the 'new game' button
15:20<planetmaker>thus: a tab'ed window
15:20<frosch123>oh, damn, rb said the same :p
15:20<@peter1138>windows 3.1
15:20<planetmaker>one tab needs to be settings
15:20<Ammler>stupid OSX :-)
15:20<Vornicus>(but OSX also puts minimize and maximize over on the left)
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15:20<andythenorth>Ammler: stupid other window managers
15:20<frosch123>planetmaker: but aren't all options already there?
15:20<@peter1138>os/2 warp
15:20<planetmaker>and all settings are gathered there. Thus the adv. settings are moved there
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15:20<planetmaker>frosch123: not at all.
15:21<@peter1138>risc os
15:21<Prof_Frink>A suitably (mis)configured kwin.
15:21<frosch123>(after moving driveside and town names)
15:21<planetmaker>no newgrfs, no AI, no adv. settings there
15:21<@peter1138>all have the X on the left
15:21<planetmaker>it's all in the main menu
15:21<Ammler>an "X" on both sides?
15:21<@peter1138> hehe :D
15:21<planetmaker>thus it's not clear it needs consideration
15:26<@peter1138>hmm, difficult to get a diff from the source for that :s
15:27<planetmaker>frosch123: basically they are nearly all there. The UI things need to go then from the adv. settings to the options window
15:27<planetmaker>as they're not related to the game creation at all
15:28<planetmaker>and the savegame date format is better listed near the language settings and measurment units used
15:28<planetmaker>or so
15:28<andythenorth>peter1138 ha ha....TTD was one of the reasons my brother bought a Win 3.1 pc, which is how I started playing TTD in 1994. 'My' computer was an Acorn A3000
15:29<planetmaker>How do I go about moving strings in _each_ language file to another place within them?
15:29<Rubidium>planetmaker: you don't :)
15:29<planetmaker>or is it sufficient to just move it in english.txt?
15:29<Alberth>andythenorth: I started with a BBC B, and ended with one of the first risc os machines
15:30<andythenorth>sounds familiar
15:30<planetmaker>Rubidium: well, but if I rename strings?
15:30*andythenorth played too much JCB Digger when small
15:30<frosch123>planetmaker: sed ?
15:30<Alberth>then linux kernel 0.13 was released :)
15:31<planetmaker>frosch123: renaming successful. But now moving them to another place in each file?
15:31<frosch123>do not move them :)
15:31<planetmaker>they're in the wrong place...
15:31<Alberth>delete the original, insert a new one at the new place
15:31<frosch123>i guess wt3 will do that
15:31<planetmaker>like mapgen strings in the middle of game_options
15:31<frosch123>but of course you could also do that with sed if you want to
15:31<planetmaker>I don't :-P
15:32<planetmaker>I don't have any idea how to do that with sed. Though it's probably possible
15:32<Rubidium>I think it's better to keep a sed for renaming the other translations (so it can be done upon/after commit) and fix the order in english.txt
15:32<Rubidium>then WT3 will make sure they're (over time) in the right order again
15:33<planetmaker>Well, I did the replace with nedit, but that amounts to the same. One click, replace everywhere
15:33<planetmaker>ok, then I'll just adopt English order ;-)
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15:36<planetmaker>thanks, Alberth
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15:42<Ammler> <-- how do I see the rest of the ServerAddress?
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15:53<andythenorth>planetmaker: ultimately....something like this?
15:53*Zuu wonders why all intersection capacity model softwares name themself with uppercase names.
15:54*Alberth expected nicely drawn tabs
15:54<andythenorth>are they possible? I'm just going by what the game already does
15:54<Zuu>There is image buttons, but duno if they can be used for that.
15:55<andythenorth>we could add icons, but to what result? Pictures aren't always needed, they can just be visual noise
15:55<Alberth>it needs work, but such a row of ugly buttons was the reason I tree-ified the advanced settings :)
15:56<Alberth>(along with the recognition that space was very limited :) )
15:56<Zuu>I was more refering to hacking in drawn tabs using image buttons :-)
15:56<Zuu>But a better solution is probably to introduce a tab panel widget of some sort.
15:57<andythenorth>as in 'translations might not fit'?
15:57<Zuu>or as in translating images?
15:57<Alberth>as in how to translate an image?
15:57*andythenorth lives in a world where 'images for words' is a big no-no
15:58<andythenorth>not accessible, not translatable, costs way too much money to maintain
15:58<andythenorth>bad for seo, can't be searched, etc etc
15:58<Zuu>I was thinking in the lines of image + text buttons but maybe that's not possible and still the idea was not really ment to be serious.
15:58<Alberth>a widget that can select one plane to display from several planes already exists
15:58<andythenorth>yep....would be worth doing.
15:58<andythenorth>these are not proper tabs....they are....broken tabs because they don't connect to the pane
15:58<Alberth>so you 'only' need to make a nice tab-like row
15:59<andythenorth>they don't have to look like 'tabs', they just have to connect to the pane :)
15:59*andythenorth draws
15:59<Zuu>Alberth: what do you think, is implementing frames something that this suggestion would need. The benefit would be to keep each tab content in their own class. And possible not having a giant widget tree with all widgets.
16:00<Alberth>andythenorth: in RCT they use images for everything instead of words, no translations needed :)
16:00<andythenorth>sucks unless you have some imaging library converting all your text to images :P
16:00<andythenorth>after 16 years, is it time the game had some rounded corners?
16:01<Alberth>no real proper images, like you draw them, not words as a collection of pixels
16:01<Alberth>Zuu: what is a frame?
16:01<Vornicus>I actually like the square thingies.
16:01<frosch123>andythenorth: rounded corners are damn ugly
16:01<andythenorth>they aren't
16:01<andythenorth>but they don't fit TTD style :)
16:02<Zuu>A frame in Delphi is almost like a window. It is a root level to place widgets on. Yet, the frame can be placed on other windows. This makes it possible to split up big windows in several classes as well as reusing a frame at many places.
16:02<Alberth>Zuu: you are going to have 1 main class and 1 main widget tree, I think.
16:03<frosch123>for tablike button in ttd i would suggest a trapezium shape
16:03<frosch123>with a 90° angle on the left (for ltr languaes) and a 60° slope on the other end
16:03*andythenorth suggests sticking with Simon Foster intended
16:04<andythenorth>it's worked for 16 years, why start bleeding the interface now?
16:04<Zuu>why bother with drag and drop then? ;-)
16:04<andythenorth>it was always there
16:04<Alberth>it has no rounded corners
16:04<andythenorth>and interaction != graphic design
16:06<Alberth>Zuu: the Window class is still the main point of entry for all callbacks, introducing a frame is going to be non-trivial, I think.
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16:07<Zuu>I agree that frames would be non-trival. Maybe it will not work good in OpenTTD where each Window implementation does quite a lot of the input processing instead of having per-widget callbacks.
16:08<frosch123>Alberth: isn't it just about using the same widget enum for all configuration windows, and then including a widget tree from another definition into a new definition?
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16:08<frosch123>i.e. instead of copy pasting some lines between containerstart/-end include some other widget tree
16:09<frosch123>otoh, how many widgets does the advanced settings window have?
16:09<Alberth>very few widgets
16:09<Alberth>all settings are fake
16:11<andythenorth>^ would need to look more 'pane-like'
16:11<Alberth>frosch123: what about al the OnXYZ callbacks? that's what I am worried about more
16:12<planetmaker> <-- I added a new task to FS.
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16:13<planetmaker>Maybe we can treat that like a general task as is done for the OSX deprecation topic and was done for the window system transition?
16:13<frosch123>i do not know the adv. settings window very well, but is it more than putting the drawwidget and onclick functions into some separate class?
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16:13<planetmaker>I also added the first three patches which move road vehicle and town names away from options
16:14<planetmaker>frosch123: for the RV driving side virtually no work was required
16:14<Zuu>well, the window that has frames would need to repeat the call to the OnXXX functions to the active frames.
16:14<Zuu>Eg. on a tab window, only the visible panel/frame needs to be painted etc.
16:15<Alberth>stacked widget takes care of that
16:15<Alberth>although you may want to make a new 'widget' that redirects to the other window
16:18<frosch123>anyway, i do not really favour the all in one tabbed window. better add some buttons for "newgrf settings", "ai settings", "game settings", "interface settings" or so
16:19<planetmaker>frosch123: what's wrong with tabbed? It's actually a design which intuitvely is associated with several options which configure a common thing
16:19<frosch123>it restricts the window size, everything needs to fit into the same space
16:19<frosch123>and i do not consider it more intuitive for very different things
16:20*andythenorth hmmms
16:20<planetmaker>consider it globally: what do I need to do to get a new map started?
16:20<planetmaker>- set map preferences
16:20<planetmaker>- set newgrf preferences
16:20<planetmaker>- set AI preferences
16:20<planetmaker>- set 'other' settings
16:20<andythenorth>planetmaker steals my words :o
16:20<planetmaker>feel honoured. It's a sign of good wording ;-)
16:21<planetmaker>luckily you cannot copyright those words :-P
16:22<andythenorth>i was going to type the same, but it's slow with one hand :P
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16:22<planetmaker>let your son do the typing ;-)
16:23<andythenorth>dwjnmf cXIK
16:24<andythenorth>WS5II8QWEFUKqef8i3 c bbb
16:24<Alberth>to make start of a new game more streamlined is good, but all settings stuff in one big window feels a bit bulky
16:24<Alberth>andythenorth: now you type the missing letters :)
16:24<andythenorth>Alberth: it's clear that there is still 'advanced settings' ?
16:25<planetmaker>Alberth: I agree, I'm unsure about the (current) advanced settings. They're many.
16:25<planetmaker>But then, I think that a tab view will give the strongest hint of what needs doing
16:26<planetmaker>and it's like one window for each. They just share a common header
16:26<planetmaker>E.g. the newgrf window hardly needs changing
16:26<planetmaker>nor the KI window
16:26<andythenorth>I think current advanced settings is fine and can handle the extra stuff from 'game options' that can be added to it
16:26<planetmaker>actually the adv. settings neither
16:26<planetmaker>it just needs visual integration
16:26<Alberth>so it is going to be a nicely inconsistent mess :)
16:27<planetmaker>Alberth: as it is now
16:27<planetmaker>but it makes things obvious
16:27<Alberth>different styles all over the place :)
16:27<planetmaker>making it consistent is then the next thing :-)
16:27<Alberth>I agree with your remark
16:27<andythenorth>currently it is very hard to build a mental model of what is where
16:27<andythenorth>I get lost, and I've been playing OTTD for 4 years
16:28<Alberth>yes, I agree the idea and the intention are good
16:28<Alberth>window style is not that important now
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16:28<planetmaker>it's a project of similar impact as your window system. Maybe not quite as big. But it will take time. Quite some
16:28<Alberth>the qeustion is just whether throwing it all in a single window is such a good idea
16:29<planetmaker>I do think it makes sense :-)
16:29<Alberth>although i also agree a tabbed panel is the obvious choice
16:29<Zuu>A ugly hack would be to have each tab pane in their existing windows and create a fift window with the head that opens/closes each panel-window.
16:29<planetmaker>finding a common size is not that difficult. They're approx. similar anyway
16:29<planetmaker>and given the re-sizing capability...
16:30<andythenorth>constraints are good....
16:30<andythenorth>they will force design choices
16:30<Alberth>Zuu: as a proof of concept, that would be a good solution for a first impression
16:30<andythenorth>everybody wants a pony with the current GUI, and that pony means 'buttons everywhere' :P
16:30<andythenorth>all crammed together
16:30<planetmaker>Zuu: yes, as transition / mockup that might actually work
16:31<andythenorth>stacked vertical buttons with no gaps makes it very easy to click on the wrong hit target, drives me nuts
16:31<Alberth>1x1 pixel seems big enough to me :)
16:31<planetmaker>:-D. black or white only, please!
16:31*andythenorth nvm
16:32<Alberth>use tooltip to decide which button you have :p
16:32<andythenorth>1x2 pixels. 1 black (0), 1 white (1). Set preferences with patterns of clicks corresponding to binary
16:33<andythenorth>if we had 16 pixels it could be byte code
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16:36<Alberth>we have 256 colours :)
16:36<Alberth>good night
16:37<frosch123>night albert
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16:37<planetmaker>good night, Albert...
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17:03<andythenorth>zzzzz zzzz
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18:07<Terkhen>good night
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18:44<Eddi|zuHause>haha, elections in germany are way more funy... 5 parties, two large parties have 67 seats, smaller parties have 23, 13 and 11 seats: necessary for majority: 91, any "sensible" coalition has only <=90 seats
18:46<Zuu>I'm a bit dissapointed that in Sweden two blocks has been formed with 4 respective 3 parties in each which make up their sides before the election. Now it becomes less and less important which party in the block you vote on.
18:47<Zuu>IMHO you should tell which party/persons you like and then after that the parties that people like most form an alianse.
18:47<Zuu>With the current development we soon get the US situation with just two parties to vote on.
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>well, the difference in germany is that nobody really wants a coalition with the "left" party
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>so you have two blocks who neither can get a majority
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>... more often than not
18:48<Zuu>I guess with the WW2 history it is much more forbidden to include the "left" party in Germany than in other countries.
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>this is more about the post-ww2 history
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18:51<Eddi|zuHause>in this election in the Land Nordrhein-Westfalen the possible coalitions were a little more open, because it was kinda expected that the existing conservative (black)/liberal (yellow) coalition wasn't going to win anyway, so they hoped they could form an experimental black/green coalition
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18:52<Eddi|zuHause>which now also doesn't have a majority
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>the only sensible coalitions now are a "grand coalition" (black/red) between the two large parties or a "red/red/green" coalition with the left party
18:54<SmatZ>what is wrong with me? I am playing Portal, and I simply can kill my companion cube!
18:54<SmatZ>because... I like her...
18:54<Eddi|zuHause>way lesser chance has a "jamaica" (black/yellow/green) coalition
18:55<Eddi|zuHause>or an "ampel" [=traffic light] (red/yellow/green) coalition
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19:33<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: At present we have "Blue/Yellow-who-hate-each-other" or "Yellow/Red/4-tiny-others-which-won't-be-stable" :P
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19:35<OwenS>Its quite interesting.
19:35<OwenS>The other thing is that the 4-tiny-others will try to extract blood, being as they are
19:36<OwenS>But hey, at least in Germany a party which gets 23% of the vote gets 23% of the seats rather than 11% :P
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19:45<Eddi|zuHause>the difference is that it's extremely unlikely that you have "4 tiny others"
19:45<Eddi|zuHause>as parties with less than 5% of the votes get no seats
19:50<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: We have 7 small parties ;)
19:50<OwenS>But yes our system is broken. Why do you think its top of the Lib Dem's agenda? :p
19:50<Eddi|zuHause>we have about 20 small parties, but rarely anyone of these gets significant amount of votes
19:51<OwenS>The parties go, sizewise, 306/258/57/8/6/5/3/3/1/1/0.../1 (the last is an independent)
19:51<Eddi|zuHause>you occasionally hear outcries when a right wing party manages to get into a parliament, but usually they get out of there in the next election
19:52<OwenS>Our rightwing nutjobs got 1.9% of the vote, but no seats
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19:53<Eddi|zuHause>5% is a pretty steep margin. nationwide that means about 2 million votes
19:54<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: DUP got 8 seats but only 0.6% of the votes... our system is really screwy like that :p
19:55<OwenS>(Northern Ireland's constituencies are smaller population wise, so they have a significantly above-average proportion of the seats for their population)
19:55<Eddi|zuHause>well, if you have a regionally founded party that can do that, that is possible in germany as well
19:56<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. bavaria's CSU
19:56<OwenS>Also, none of the national parties stand in Northern Irelend (But do everywhere else), bizzarely
19:56<Eddi|zuHause>when they get 50% in bavaria, that means they easily pass 5% nationwide, with only bavarian votes
19:57<Eddi|zuHause>but the CSU has kind of a "fixed" coalition with the CDU, which runs in the rest of germany
19:58<OwenS>Heh, we don't really have any coalitions.
19:58<OwenS>The SNP have spent the last 5 years attacking Labour. Now they want to cuddle up to them because they hate the Conservatives more :p
19:58<Eddi|zuHause>it's more than a coalition
19:58<Eddi|zuHause>it's more like "sister parties"
19:59<Eoin>SNP > Labour
19:59<Eddi|zuHause>mean they form one united fraction, not two separate ones
20:00<Eoin>No one in scotland likes the tories
20:00<OwenS>Yeah, they only got one seat
20:00<Eddi|zuHause>Eoin: i thought they got one seat
20:00<Eoin>they did
20:00<Eoin>not one seat changed in scotland
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20:00<Eoin>we are all like "change"
20:00<Eoin>aye, maybe tommorow
20:00<Eddi|zuHause>that means at least in one section, a "majority" likes them ;)
20:00<Eoin>but its south scotland
20:01<Eoin>nearer you get to england
20:01<Eoin>more they tories are loved
20:01<Eoin>tories came fourth in my seat
20:01<Eoin>labour > snp > lib dem > tories
20:01<Eoin>and other half of city was
20:01<Eoin>snp > labour > lib dem > tories
20:03<OwenS>Mine was Lab >> Con >> LD (held); south was Con > Lab > LD (By .5%!), East was LD >> Lab > Con, with a 21.8% to LD swing
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20:57<@orudge>Eoin: see, if we had PR though, the Tories would have half a dozen or so seats in Scotland
20:58<@orudge>there are certainly quite a few Tory supporters, just not quite as many as there are Labour and SNP :p
20:58<@orudge>TV times
21:04<Eddi|zuHause>that's the drawback of pure proportional sytem, it does not properly recognise locally founded parties
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21:21<Eoin>PR for all partys but tories ukip and bnp
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22:51<ccfreak2k><Knifa> no one in scotland
22:51<ccfreak2k><Knifa> voted for conservatives
22:51<ccfreak2k><Knifa> but they still got the most votes somehow.
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---Logclosed Mon May 10 00:00:32 2010