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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-05-10

---Logopened Mon May 10 00:00:32 2010
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01:31<DDR_>Good morning, dihedral.
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02:36<arkenklo>hey, yeah, sorry for storming in and being an ass, I've looked everywhere and haven't found an answer. How do you open up the "local authority" window?
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02:44<blathijs>Arkenklo: IIRC you need to click a town's name
02:45<Arkenklo>aha, the name
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03:42<planetmaker>good morning
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05:00<Terkhen>good morning
05:04<planetmaker>moin Terkhen
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05:35<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19776 /trunk/src/script/script_scanner.cpp: -Change: don't scan for tars in the script scanner; it has already happened.
05:37<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19777 /trunk/src/ (fileio.cpp fileio_func.h network/network_content.cpp): -Change: use the file scanner to find the .tars
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05:44<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19778 /trunk/src/stdafx.h: -Change: use the value from PATH_MAX (POSIX) for MAX_PATH (Windows/OpenTTD) if it exists
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05:49<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19779 /trunk/src/ (fileio.cpp fileio_func.h): -Change: add a return type to AppendPathSeparator and use that to determine whether we could append the path separator. If not, do not recurse into that directory as the path would exceed the maximum path length
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05:51<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19780 /trunk/src/os/unix/unix.cpp: -Fix [FS#3807]: make sure that when checking whether a path + filename are valid the whole string can be constructed within an array of length MAX_PATH. If not, the name is too long and is deemed invalid
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06:09<OwenS>Whoa, looks like I got my Eva Platinum tin box just in time. They're now at £100 :o
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07:52<andythenorth>can we teach the AI to build rivers?
07:53<Eddi|zuHause>you would have to start an AI in the scenario editor first
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07:54<planetmaker>andythenorth, first we'd have to teach us building rivers ingame. Something which is easily solved but I don't know anymore why it wasn't wanted back then
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07:54<andythenorth>can we make it possible for rivers to be built in game?
07:54<planetmaker>very easily
07:54<Redirect_Left>isn't that a just a big canal?
07:54<andythenorth>it's a canal with funny sprites :)
07:54<andythenorth>and no locks
07:55<planetmaker>andythenorth, I even have a patch for that somewhere...
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07:55<Eddi|zuHause>... i have this old river generation patch lying around
07:55<planetmaker>updating should be fairly simple
07:55<andythenorth>did anyone try river generation algorithms?
07:55<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, you, too? ;-)
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>but it depends on rivers on half-slopes
07:55<planetmaker>andythenorth, afaik only Eddi and myself tried
07:55<andythenorth>I wondered if it would be fun for an AI....just start at the coast and work upwards, trying to take turns every so often
07:56<planetmaker>sounds like the wrong concept for river generation.
07:56<planetmaker>It's not an AI task. It's a generic game task
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>also it needs improvements wrt. getting stuck at minor or major obstacles
07:56<planetmaker>using an AI doesn't really offer an advantage there IMHO
07:57<planetmaker>yeah... slopes are a bitch. That's where the assertions strike
07:57<planetmaker>and path finding. That's where it starts to look funny under certain conditions
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>well, i just started somewhere, and went until there was a sink in the tgp-heightmap
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>but this way, rivers tend to end on seemingly flat terrain
07:58<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, yeah, that results in lakes
07:59<planetmaker>If you walk up it works, too, but rivers might be quite short...
07:59<andythenorth>in some countries canals are major civil projects (rather than commercial projects), so a canal-building AI could be fun
07:59<andythenorth>highways also
07:59<andythenorth>AI for major infrastructure projects?
07:59<andythenorth>we'd need a way to send it money via taxes :P
07:59<planetmaker> <-- andythenorth there are my old patches
08:00<planetmaker>andythenorth, no need for that. Just make it build routes with a vehicle preference. And proper algorithm. Then those things will happen automatically
08:00<andythenorth>capitalism :P
08:00<planetmaker>Look at current road AIs. They build huge road networks.
08:00<andythenorth>I'm surprised by all you Europeans being so free-market :P
08:00<planetmaker>Teach them to build highways and you're set
08:01<planetmaker>highways as opposed to the normal roads they congest now
08:01-!-Guest214 is now known as George
08:02<George>1188 * 12 02 00 92 84 C1 00 00 02 90 00 91 00
08:02<George>// 1188 * 11 02 00 92 83 00 00 02 90 00 91 00
08:02<George>is the first line correct?
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08:03*planetmaker finds uncommented NFO quite hard to read as it needs numerous look-ups in the wiki
08:04<Progman>s/uncommented (NFO quite hard to read).*/$1/
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08:24<planetmaker>George3, I doubt that C1 is a proper position within the consist
08:25<George3>what value would mean first vehicle in the chain with the same ID?
08:25<Ammler>George3: you really code that way?
08:26<Ammler>big hex only rows?
08:26<Ammler>then decoded "George-GRFs" _are_ like sources :-)
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08:27<planetmaker>reading the docs it sounds right, though
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08:29<planetmaker>looks ok, though you use no random triggers nor random bits (you mask out everything)
08:29<planetmaker>or I don't understand it. Rather likely
08:31-!-George3 is now known as George
08:32<planetmaker>I'd try ...C1 8D 03...
08:33<planetmaker>or whatever reason you want to call the randomizer, change the 2nd byte I quoted
08:34<George>random-triggers 00 - when build
08:34<planetmaker>is that so?
08:34<George>randbit 00 is bit 0 is first bit
08:34<planetmaker>1st bit is 01
08:35<planetmaker>it's a mask. And I don't see where you get the 00 = when build information from
08:35<George>or untriggered bits, set only at the time of purchase
08:36<George>(from wiki)
08:36<planetmaker>the link you gave doesn't stat that.
08:36<planetmaker>0 01 Vehicle gets new load of cargo (only after it was empty)
08:36<planetmaker>1 02 Vehicle enters a depot and is serviced
08:36<planetmaker>2 04 The consist has unloaded all cargo
08:36<planetmaker>3 08 Any vehicle of the consist receives cargo
08:36<planetmaker>4 10 Callback 32 returned 1
08:36<planetmaker>^ those triggers are available. No "upon build"
08:37<George>This is a bit mask of triggers which cause re-randomizing. Normally, any matching trigger causes the graphics to be randomized again, but if you add 80 to the bitmask, the re-randomizing only happens if all triggers have occurred.
08:37<George>Trigger bits are feature-specific, see below.
08:37<George>For versions before 2.0.1 alpha 30, leave this at 00. It doesn't quite work the way intended (it was supposed to allow independent random chains, but currently everything is re-randomized at the same time, thereby defeating this mechanism).
08:37<George>Since 2.0.1 alpha 30, only those bits that actually get triggered will be re-randomized. Prior versions always re-randomized all bits. This will make it possible to have independent sets of bits for independent triggers (or untriggered bits, set only at the time of purchase). Setting randbit determines the first bit to be re-randomized, as well as basing the random graphics on. The total number of bits used is the 2-logarithm of nrand below (e.g., for nrand
08:37<planetmaker>I don't read your conclusion from that
08:38<George>it says "or untriggered bits, set only at the time of purchase"
08:38<planetmaker>yes, ok
08:38<George>that means that on purchase the randomisations always happens
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08:39<George>and value 00 means no randomisation in future
08:39<George>(no trigger met)
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08:41<planetmaker>set randbit to 01
08:43<planetmaker>you want to start with the 1st bit :-)
08:43<planetmaker>and it's a bit mask
08:46<George>wiki says "Setting randbit determines the first bit to be re-randomized"
08:46<George>value 00 means start from first bit
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08:47<planetmaker>well. Then it is correct. Does it work for you?
08:47<planetmaker>If not you might actually say what _does_ bother you
08:47<planetmaker>instead of asking around your problem and having us doe guesswork
08:48<Rubidium>that I have to do some shopping right now
08:48<George>for me this part works as intended
08:48<planetmaker>enjoy your feminine side, Rubidium ;-)
08:48<planetmaker>... err, George, so?
08:49<planetmaker>it works for you, it is correct according to your wiki reading. So what's the real issue?
08:49*planetmaker is quite baffled
08:49<George>as for randomization 84 count c1 I get problem
08:50<George>I currently made the following workaround, but it was not what I intended
08:50<George>1188 * 11 02 00 92 80 00 00 02 90 00 91 00
08:50<George> 1189 * 12 02 00 93 84 41 00 00 02 90 00 91 00
08:50<George> 1190 * 12 02 00 94 84 42 00 00 02 90 00 91 00
08:50<George> 1191 * 12 02 00 95 84 43 00 00 02 90 00 91 00
08:50<George> 1192 * 22 02 00 96 81 41 00 03 03
08:50<George> 92 00 00 00
08:50<George> 93 00 01 01
08:50<George> 94 00 02 02
08:50<George> 95 00
08:50<George>// 1188 * 12 02 00 92 84 C1 00 00 02 90 00 91 00
08:50<George>// 1188 * 11 02 00 92 83 00 00 02 90 00 91 00
08:50<Redirect_Left>PASTEBIN PLS.
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08:51<@peter1138>ahh, the well documented NFO strikes again
08:51<George>So, as you can see I test the position in the chan, but it is not absolutely correct
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08:52<planetmaker>For type 84, this specifies which vehicle's random bits this vehicle will be using and/or modifying.
08:54<George>peter1138: but me doubts that such comments help
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08:55<George>planetmaker: yes, but the problem is that how can I test the whole chain?
08:55<George>I supposed value C1 would mean the first one in a row, but it does not work
08:56<@peter1138>no, that is not well documented NFO either
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08:58<George>peter1138: can you make the example of well documented NFO for these lines?
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08:59<planetmaker> <-- MU code from 2cctrainset
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08:59<planetmaker>see lines 146 following
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>George: ideally, each byte, word or dword is commented individually on what it means
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>but in the end, it's not the quantity of comments that matters
09:00<planetmaker>tty? ;-)
09:01*peter1138 remembers the days before the pts/x switchover
09:01<Eddi|zuHause>what matters is that someone who doesn't code NFO every day can understand what's supposed to be going on without flipping back and forth in the specs
09:01<George>Well, back to topic. is value C1 correct and should check random bits of the first vehicle in a row with the same ID?
09:01<@peter1138>tons of /dev/ttyPx entries instead
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09:02<@peter1138>all statci
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09:02*planetmaker has no real clue about those random2 variables
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09:02<@peter1138>hehe, what was the question?
09:06<@peter1138>ah, relative scope
09:06<@peter1138>C1 is 1100 0001
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>... hm... i shouldn't try to do three things simultaneously
09:08<@peter1138>so the C1 makes it start from the first vehicle in the chain with the same ID
09:09<@peter1138>the 1 makes it take the next vehicle
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09:13<@peter1138>George, does that make sense?
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09:18<George>I epected the same
09:19<George>but OTTD crashes
09:19<George>Currently trying to make a test GRF and a bug report
09:19<George>I just wanted to ask first if my code is correct
09:19<George>According to the discussion - it should
09:19<planetmaker>even incorrect code must not trigger a crash
09:19<@peter1138>do you know where in the chain it crashes?
09:20<George>The crash happens when I press "new vehicle" bottom in depot
09:22<@peter1138>looks like it could happen if the vehicle doesn't actually exist yet
09:23<George>you mean "beacuse the vehicle doesn't actually exist yet"?
09:24<@peter1138>if. i don't know yet.
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09:25<George>but in purchase window it does not exist yet, doesn't it?
09:25<@peter1138>it doesn't crash in the purcahse window though
09:25<@peter1138>it crashes when you build it
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09:25<George>so, I should make the test GRF, right?
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09:26<George><@peter1138> it crashes when you build it - no. when I try to open purchase window
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09:27<@peter1138>that would do it
09:27<@peter1138>it calls self->First() when self could be NULL
09:28<George>do you mean you do not need a test GRF, you have found a problem already?
09:29<@peter1138>do you compile your own openttd?
09:29<George>I use only nighties
09:30<@peter1138>well that's not helpful
09:30<George>R19774 currently
09:31<@peter1138>^ that's probably your first
09:31<@peter1138>^ that's probably your fix
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09:31<@peter1138>but i can't test it, so
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09:38<George>can I add anything?
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09:50<Eddi|zuHause>how is that a "chinese" concept? i have seen "moving platforms" etc. in a german TV show 20 years ago...
09:51<__ln__>is there something the chinese wouldn't copy
09:52<Doorslammer>Its a ridiculous idea
09:53<Doorslammer>That as well
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09:58<theholyduck>Doorslammer, well it could work in theory, if albeit a bit impractical both from the point of view of drag, not to mention making the transition smooth
09:59<theholyduck>and finally, what if loads of people wants to board the train?
09:59<Doorslammer>Oh, I don't think that's the biggest worry here
09:59<Doorslammer>Ah, you got it there with the last point
09:59<theholyduck>not to mention
09:59<theholyduck>LEAVE the train
10:00<Doorslammer>I bet their current catenary requirements have scuppered it already too
10:01*theholyduck wishes the norwegian train system was more reliable
10:01<theholyduck>there has been only minimal maintenance on it for years apparently.
10:01<theholyduck>and now its falling appart everywhere
10:02<Doorslammer>The opposite has an even funnier ring to it
10:03<theholyduck>the only good part is the relativly cheap 1st class wagon and the silent wagon
10:03<theholyduck>because they're almost always empty
10:03<Doorslammer>Not long ago, a suburban EMU got caught up in some wires
10:03<Doorslammer>Public and media reaction to it?
10:03<theholyduck>where as the rest of the trains can be way overcrowded
10:03<Doorslammer>"Why on earth did this happen?"
10:05<Doorslammer>Like things don't break on catenary systems...
10:08<Doorslammer>lol, did anyone read the comment under that article?
10:08<Doorslammer>MICHAEL j. sCHMITZ says:
10:08<Doorslammer>April 26, 2010 at 3:18 am
10:09<planetmaker>are you alright?
10:11<Doorslammer>Why on earth do you ask?
10:11<theholyduck>Doorslammer, that comment made me lol
10:12<theholyduck>Doorslammer, there was a huge train related accident in norway this year actually
10:12<Doorslammer>Was there?
10:12<theholyduck>Doorslammer, some trains at a station came loose or something
10:12<theholyduck>at the top of a hill
10:12<theholyduck>and went down sevral km of hills
10:12<Doorslammer>Crikey, in Norway?
10:12<theholyduck>untill derailing and flying straight through a dock
10:12<theholyduck>through houses, cars, and what not
10:12<theholyduck>Doorslammer, yeah
10:13<Doorslammer>How on earth can something like that happen in 2010. Did we suddenly fly back to 1889 or something?
10:14<Doorslammer>Something similar in South Africa too
10:14<theholyduck>Doorslammer, well the breaks didnt work
10:14<theholyduck>Doorslammer, they did manage to route it off the trafficated lines
10:15<theholyduck>but didnt have time to get people out of the way
10:15<Doorslammer>Thats still a bit mad
10:15<theholyduck> Doorslammer
10:15<theholyduck>hit the "neste" button to see various pics
10:16<theholyduck> has a huge pic at the top of one of the buildings hit
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11:28<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i wrote a reply on the forum, hope it's helpful...
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12:27*Mazur is away: I'm busy
12:27*Mazur is back (gone 00:00:02)
12:28<OwenS>Mazur: Please keep away notifications to /away and /back...
12:28<@Belugas>or you'll be away and not back any time soon
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12:28<@Belugas>hey... that was not me!
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12:35<OwenS>Whoa! Gordon Brown to resign!
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13:11<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19781 /trunk/ (config.lib src/network/core/os_abstraction.h src/stdafx.h): -Fix [FS#3809]: compilation on NetBSD failed (Krille)
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13:21<@Belugas>bonne soiree
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13:24<Wolf01>gah internet connection freezed.. it's too slow, I can't even open tt-forums... maybe I should try to odd open it :|
13:27<CIA-6>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r19782 /trunk/src/newgrf_engine.cpp: -Fix [FS#3828]: NULL pointer deference when testing relative scope *action2 on an unbuilt engine.
13:28<Wolf01>I want to code an addin to the transparent toolbar: transparent roads/rails, at least one could see what's under the road.
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13:29<@peter1138>but there isn't anything under the road
13:30<Wolf01>For me it's useful because I often place 2 parallel one-way roads to simulate the highways, and to stop cities/competitors to spawn crossings all around I dig the terrain in the middle
13:30<Wolf01>So I need to see where the terrain is plain and where it's dug :P
13:33<@Belugas>Wolf01, there is nothing under the road/rail. it's plain grass
13:33<@Belugas>in ottd, at least
13:34<Wolf01>but there is a trench under my road!
13:34<@Belugas>PROVE IT!
13:35<@peter1138>There isn't. It's filled by the foundations.
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13:39*Belugas enjoys The Cure, from all era
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13:43<Wolf01> here
13:44<nighthawk_c_m>evening guys
13:45<Wolf01>'night, hawk
13:45<planetmaker>evening guy
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19783 /trunk/src/lang/ (polish.txt russian.txt):
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: polish - 5 changes by xine
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: russian - 24 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:47<@Belugas>Wolf01 : [13:35] <@peter1138> There isn't. It's filled by the foundations.
13:47<Wolf01>at least I should see the foundations
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13:51<@Belugas>hem... nope
13:51<@Belugas>'cause on top of the foundations, there is only grass :)
13:53<Wolf01>and overlaying a transparent sloped tile over the road?
13:58<@Belugas>Wolf01, and what to do when there are no slopes?
13:58<Wolf01>draw nothing
13:58<@Belugas>then your not really better
13:59<@Belugas>two standards are bad, i'd say
13:59<@Belugas>one for foundations, one for nothing
13:59<Wolf01>then draw a plane tile, so it looks like the road is transparent
14:04<@Belugas>so... basically, you're saying that roads should be transparent and invisible
14:04<@Belugas>aqnd right now, they are just invisible
14:06<Wolf01>if you draw a transparent overlay, like it works for bridges, houses.. the roads should look like transparent too, but we need to add the overlay only when the transparency is active
14:07<Wolf01>there is no need to draw the standard tile + the transparent road tile when the road is "solid"
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14:08<COLT>are ther any Bananas admin ??
14:08<Wolf01>it might require a little change here and there, but I think it's easy to do
14:09<COLT>I have big problem
14:10<Ammler>(if they don't answer here)
14:10<COLT>its not a bug
14:11<COLT>One of our members quit and we don't have contact with him. We want to delete old version of Polish Set from bananas but we dont have account passwords etc . is possible to delete Polish Set 1.5a from Bananas by the admin.
14:12<Ammler>you can't delete
14:12<COLT>I'am Polish Set developer
14:12<Ammler>but you could upload a new version, then the old isn't available anymore
14:12<COLT>then how to remove it from bananas
14:12<COLT>i write
14:12<Ammler>or hide it with min/max version
14:12<@Belugas>Wolf01, it "feels" decent, i'd say
14:14<Ammler>they do delete only, if the upload was against the TOS
14:14<COLT>"One of our members quit and we don't have contact with him. We want to delete old version of Polish Set from bananas but we dont have account passwords etc" thats a problem
14:14<Ammler>that is no reason :-)
14:14<Ammler>but you could ask them to move the set to an other account
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14:14<COLT>and on bananas are two versions of Polish Set
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14:15<COLT>i make new account to upload new version
14:15<Ammler>but then you have 3 different?
14:16<COLT>what 3 different
14:16<COLT>iur member have account and quit on his account is Polish Set 1.5a
14:17<COLT>i make new account to upload new version of Set
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14:17<Ammler>COLT: you should ask them to move it to you
14:17<Ammler>so you can update that
14:18<Ammler>so the old set will automatically be hidden
14:19<COLT>i wrote post on forum maybe that helps :)
14:20<Ammler>I would recommend to use "set account" if you are team, but TB doesn't like that.
14:21<planetmaker>COLT: you make yourself an account and ask one of the bananas admins nicely whether they give your account also access to the set
14:21<planetmaker>Though not user-configurable, it's possible for more than one account to have access to an entry
14:21<planetmaker>One thing no single account can do is to delete an old entry.
14:22<planetmaker>And that's something which the TOS state: you agree that things are allowed to be kept eternally on bananas
14:22<planetmaker>good evening andythenorth :-)
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14:23<planetmaker>COLT, but something you should not do is to create a new entry for an update of the Polish train set.
14:24<planetmaker>Then you made sure that the old entry will remain active ;-)
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14:25<Rubidium>planetmaker: they changed the GRF ID, so it's considered a new NewGRF
14:25<COLT>yes i chnged id to can upload
14:26<planetmaker>Rubidium, always? IIRC FIRS and 2cctrainset have already updated old versions by changing the GRFID
14:26<Ammler>colt the only reason?
14:26<Ammler>else it would still be compatible?
14:27<planetmaker>but might be that at the same time the max version for the old ones was limited to something reasonably low
14:27<Rubidium>planetmaker: don't know whether updating checks for the same NewGRF ID
14:27<Ammler>same entry can have different ID, but not same ID different entries
14:27<planetmaker>Rubidium, I think it doesn't
14:27<planetmaker>(which I consider sensible)
14:27<planetmaker>If the author knows what they do ;-)
14:28<Rubidium>ah, yes... looking at the DB that seems possible
14:28<Ammler>COLT: why do you ask here, if you do anyway what you want?
14:28<planetmaker>even OpenGFX exercised that with the extra newgrf ;-)
14:28<COLT>remove old version of Polish Set 1.5a
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14:28<planetmaker>first act, then ask ;-)
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14:29<planetmaker>COLT, that's not possible, won't happen. You agreed that it won't happen.
14:29<planetmaker>Or the old author did
14:29<planetmaker>You even agreed that your current uploaded version will NEVER be removed
14:29<COLT>old author gone lost
14:29<Ammler>some might need that grf for the saves they have
14:29<planetmaker>doesn't matter
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14:29<Rubidium>planetmaker: I don't think that base sets test GRF IDs
14:30<Rubidium>also, there are two explanations of removing something
14:30<planetmaker>yes, may be.
14:30<Rubidium>the "removing it from the list that will be shown in-game" vs "removing it completely so it can't be found by GRF ID + md5 checksum anymore"
14:30<Rubidium>the former can be done, the latter won't be done
14:31<Rubidium>there, now he should be happ
14:32<planetmaker>uh... a NC-ND set :-(
14:32<Rubidium>COLT: next time please ask about taking over something before jumping through hoops to get it working/done
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14:33<planetmaker>Rubidium, what license did the old one have?
14:33<Rubidium>the same
14:33<planetmaker>ok :-)
14:33<COLT>ok one more thanx and sry for a problem
14:34<Ammler>colt, how can a team develop a "ND" set?
14:34<planetmaker>:-) good question. May you modify stuff from the old author? ;-)
14:35<Rubidium>if the copyright is assigned to the same entity there should be no problem at all
14:36<Ammler>Rubidium: I know, it is possible, I just wonder, how they manage such a complex license ;-)
14:38<Ammler>what is a legal entity?
14:39*andythenorth is a legal entity
14:39<planetmaker>Ammler, many things can be. Also a bunch of people
14:39<andythenorth>should vehicle reliability be hidden?
14:39<Wolf01>Belugas, so... it might be a good idea?
14:39<planetmaker>anything which can be sued basically
14:39<andythenorth>or which can hold copyright (for example)
14:39<andythenorth>or enter into a contract
14:39<Ammler>andythenorth: single persons is easy
14:40<planetmaker>andythenorth, "can enter contracts" is - afaik - the important thing
14:40<@Belugas>Wolf01, i've not said that. I said it felt decent, mostly talking about the arguments
14:40<@Belugas>i don't feel in a postion to say it's a good idea or not
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14:43<andythenorth>planetmaker...I was going to tidy up your newgrf GUI layout, but ChillCore got there first :)
14:44<andythenorth>it looks ok, I can't read the buttons though :O
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14:45<frosch123>the details panel is far too small on the horizontal arrangements. it could never take widgets for paramters
14:47<andythenorth>frosch123: from what I can see, most people don't care about that
14:47<andythenorth>the lists are the main thing for most of the players who've commented
14:48*andythenorth wonders though
14:48<frosch123>because there is nothing much with parameters yet :p
14:48<andythenorth>the people commenting here and on the forums are serious power users of the game. They know the grfs, and they care about things like MD5 sum and the ordering of newgrfs
14:49<andythenorth>meanwhile....I watch the bananas download counts for newgrfs. They are *way* out of proportion to visits to the newgrf forums
14:50<andythenorth>I reckon it's very easy to ignore the experience of all those players who just get the game and only use bananas
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14:54*andythenorth doesn't have the hump but is a bit baffled by the GUI justifications
14:54<andythenorth>if the lists are so important why keep making them so small? It's bizarre.
14:54<andythenorth>it's like when some of you tell me the proper way to do something with code and I just say "no thanks, I just want a dirty hack" very frustrating :P
14:55<frosch123>whats small about them?
14:55<planetmaker>frosch123: andythenorth I honestly don't care much about whether Alberth's vertical list arrangement or my horizontal one gets implemented
14:55<frosch123>you can always make them to not open in the smallest size
14:55<planetmaker>if the vertical one by Alberth is more future proof: quite fine with me
14:56<andythenorth>Let's all fall out about it ! Fork Fork!
14:56<andythenorth>Or not
14:56<planetmaker>and yes, I see that the detail information is too small. Chillcore's mockup actually shows it clearly. The 2cctrainset description is truncated in his view
14:56<frosch123>planetmaker: if i got it right, due to nested widgets it does not matter at all, as it can be easily changed :p
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14:57<planetmaker>frosch123: quite true
14:57<planetmaker>apropos change: was it agreed upon that the difficulty choice can go without replacement?
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14:57<frosch123>andy has nice button arrangements btw :)
14:57*andythenorth waves bye bye to difficulty
14:58<planetmaker>yes, he has
14:58<planetmaker>they're in my local repo already moved to the adv. settings - but now the (old) difficulty window has many undefined strings :-P
14:58<planetmaker>so it has to go ;-)
14:58<andythenorth>I think the 2 list, info below version can be tidied up. I might try. My taste is irrelevant to solving the problem.
14:58<planetmaker>andythenorth: we forgot one thing in the main GUI: the highscore :-)
14:58<frosch123>planetmaker: i do not care about difficulties, but i guess it also requires trashing the highscore. which it do not care either :p
14:59<andythenorth>stupid highscores :)
14:59<frosch123>however, i am not the only one
14:59<planetmaker>frosch123: it doesn't require that. Just making it accessible from the main menu will hopefully work
14:59<frosch123>isn't highscore per difficulty level?
14:59<planetmaker>hm... I don't know :-)
15:00<frosch123>i might be mistaken as well :)
15:00<planetmaker>So far I only moved the settings ;-)
15:01*planetmaker now clones the repo to the devzone
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15:02<frosch123>yes, the highscore is per difficulty level
15:02<frosch123>so only "custom" would remain
15:02<planetmaker>that doesn't really bother me :-)
15:03<frosch123>same would hold for newgrfs (i guess only ecs vectors use it)
15:03<planetmaker>oh, they can read that? Why does no one use it? :-)
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15:03<frosch123>ecs disallows turning of stockpiles, resources and such when on "hard" setting
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15:04<frosch123>but i guess, if someone complains then due to removing the highscore or their nice "hard" setting or so
15:05<planetmaker>well. I'm thinking of possibly re-adding that then under the game generation menu
15:06<planetmaker>With a revised list of settings which constitute difficulty levels
15:06<planetmaker>Maybe some kind of indicator in the adv. settings which shows which settings are affected
15:06<planetmaker>And only have the difficulty choice obvious on a 2nd 'new game' tab. Jointly with the amount of towns and industries or so
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15:07<planetmaker>So: 1st tab: Only map settings. 2nd, 3rd tab: newgrf + AI, 4th tab: difficulty + access to adv. settings
15:08<planetmaker>+ town#, town names
15:08<planetmaker>those things which don't belong strictly to map in the smallest sense
15:08<planetmaker>or that tab is just the diff. settings and the adv. settings displayed below... hm
15:08<planetmaker>sounds nearly like a plan ;-)
15:09<planetmaker>yes, I like talking to myself :-P
15:12<frosch123>i guess one highscore for all settings should be enough
15:13<planetmaker>I guess so, too
15:13<frosch123>there is no point in distinguishing them by difficulty, as there are more important settings like map size :p
15:13<planetmaker>:-) yup
15:14<frosch123>but likely newbies need some kind of highscore until they learn that they have to build 200 busstops or so :p
15:14<planetmaker>actually that assumption isn't true anymore ;-)
15:14<planetmaker>though bus stops help.
15:15<frosch123>i guess highscore should be on main menu
15:15<frosch123>iirc it is there for most games
15:15<planetmaker>I think changing the 'difficulty' button to 'highscores' is what I like to do :-)
15:15<frosch123>would keep the layout :p
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15:16<planetmaker>the main menu layout is something only to be changed once things are (also) found in the game creation dialogue ;-)
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15:17*Rubidium wonders what the point of adding two more settings to the map generation window are; there are already too much things to choose from for most people
15:18<planetmaker>Rubidium: you mean those patches I posted?
15:19<planetmaker>those two are two things which one really might want to change from game to game - unlike most adv. settings
15:19<planetmaker>driving side depends upon whether I chose db set or japanese set. As do town names
15:19<andythenorth>planetmaker: resp. towns + industries etc. on a 2nd tab.....that's my conclusion too
15:19<planetmaker>The other settings can remain
15:19<planetmaker>andythenorth: yes, that will come
15:19<Rubidium>but then they're more related to NewGRF settings
15:19<andythenorth>hence something like 'gameplay settings' or 'world settings' or some such name
15:20<planetmaker>Rubidium: in a way
15:20<planetmaker>As stated there, they're a first step
15:20<planetmaker>In a 2nd step I'd like to move them to a separate tab in the new game dialogue
15:20<Rubidium>also the language changes are a big mess due to breaking the alignment
15:20<planetmaker>hm :S
15:21<Rubidium>maybe doing it in the reverse order is better
15:21<planetmaker>what in reverse order?
15:21<Rubidium>first making the separate tab with some stuff, then moving the game options to that tab
15:22<planetmaker>yeah, maybe an idea
15:22<andythenorth>he could be right :)
15:24<planetmaker>making tabs is the difficult part of all this anyway :-)
15:24*andythenorth wonders about a pleasing design for the tabs
15:25<planetmaker>andythenorth: you're responsible for the design of that ;-)
15:25<planetmaker>you're the graphics artist :-P
15:25<andythenorth>well it has to be rectangular :)
15:25<Ammler>a button "next"
15:26<andythenorth>for why?
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15:28*planetmaker has an idea and grabs gimp
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15:36*planetmaker is not happy with gimp :S
15:36*frosch123 is happy with coffee
15:36*andythenorth is happy with sea bass
15:39<frosch123> <- andythenorth: i guess most users either do not use any newgrfs, or use a mess like that. in any case the gui does not matter
15:39<frosch123>so i guess it is fine to design the gui for advanced users
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15:40<planetmaker>outch @ server newgrf list
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15:41<frosch123>it even contains logic train :p
15:42<planetmaker>well. That can make sense :-)
15:42<planetmaker>it cannot use wagons anyway
15:42<andythenorth>I reckon they just download everything on bananas and install it
15:43<frosch123>oh, i guess you use it for silly junctions in regular games
15:43<planetmaker>andythenorth: yeah, that seems to happen more often than one thinks
15:43<planetmaker>frosch123: yes :-P
15:43<andythenorth>well there's no harm in it, but....
15:43<Ammler>planetmaker: cannot != shoudn't ;-)
15:43<planetmaker>though the amount of games we use it is small
15:44<andythenorth>Is it the lack of info? Or just human nature?
15:44<frosch123>and there is still an impressive number of servers which only use generic trams
15:44<frosch123>which i consider as "we know grfs, but we do not want to play with stupid grfs, but we want trams"
15:45*andythenorth thinks of a newgrf gui layout
15:45<andythenorth>it's space efficient but won't be beautiful :|
15:45<Ammler>frosch123: I would consider it as "We have no idea about grfs, but that trams thing was there with 0.6"
15:46<frosch123>i would accept that reason with 0.6, but not 1.0.1
15:46<Ammler>updated server
15:46<andythenorth>so if newgrf info doesn't fit in current newgrf window, what is supposed to happen?
15:47<andythenorth>is the answer 'Fail' ?
15:47*andythenorth had never noticed the text truncation before
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15:47<Ammler>or it is simply too difficulty to setup a game with grfs on a server.
15:52<devilsadvocate>i usually play with a small set of newgrfs, but i like to move things around on occasion. i'd certainly welcome a new interface
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15:58<nighthawk_c_m>Could a linebreak be coded so Newgrf info is not truncated?
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16:03<@Belugas>what do you mean? where?
16:04<andythenorth>nighthawk_c_m: if there isn't room for the text, it has to be truncated no?
16:04<nighthawk_c_m>In that case yes
16:04<nighthawk_c_m>Could it be made in a scrollable window?
16:05<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you requested a large info panel for newgrfs
16:05<nighthawk_c_m>like a little scrollbox, might be necessary as sometimes parameters are explained at the end
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16:07<andythenorth>planetmaker: what are you gimping? :P
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16:24<andythenorth>frosch123: did your fields patch last night fix 'game blows up when industry is removed'?
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16:26<frosch123>only partially
16:26<andythenorth>not currently blowing up :)
16:27<andythenorth>I can't find a way to make it so far
16:27<frosch123>just use landinfo :p
16:27<frosch123>or smallmap
16:27<frosch123>well, smallmap crashes also when industry is not removed
16:27<andythenorth>smallmap seems fine. landinfo is not :)
16:27<frosch123>you need to switch to vegatation or owner map or so
16:28<frosch123>however, you will have to wait some longer. the next weekend is a long weekend, but not for ottd :)
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16:30<andythenorth>yup owner map blows up :)
16:30<andythenorth>creating complex field layouts with var 43 is a no no
16:31<frosch123>you cannot maintain any layout after the industry is removed, except you store it earlier in the animation state or so
16:31<planetmaker>andythenorth: I decided to rather download inkscape :-P+
16:31<frosch123>however, you also have random bits :)
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16:32<andythenorth>frosch123: random is fine......but clue for how to store in the animation state?
16:33<frosch123>you have a animation trigger for the construction stage. you can then store some value as animation frame, which you can use as "persistant" storage if you do not need animations
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16:34<frosch123>e.g. check surrounding tiles for field dimensions and then store the relative position inside the field in the animation stage
16:35*andythenorth saves that info
16:35<Chrill>Is there anyone here fluent in German?
16:35<andythenorth>the Germans probably are
16:35<frosch123>but well, if you have a idea how to do layouts via the plant callback :)
16:35<planetmaker>some are
16:35<Chrill>Could you please be so kind to translate the following for me: "I have been living there since the age of 1"
16:35<nighthawk_c_m>What do you need Chrill?
16:36<Chrill>the above :P
16:36<planetmaker>ich habe dort gewohnt seit ich eins bin
16:36*andythenorth used to be able to do *that* much german :o
16:36<planetmaker>or rather
16:36<planetmaker>ich lebe dort seit ich eins bin
16:36<frosch123>s/eins/ein Jahr alt/
16:36<nighthawk_c_m>Ich lebe hier seit meinem ersten Lebensjahr.
16:36<@Belugas>Chu icitte depuis qu
16:36<@Belugas>jai un an
16:37<planetmaker>nighthawk_c_m: you wouldn't say that ;-)
16:37<Chrill>Ich lebe dort seit ich ein Jahr alt bin ??
16:37<planetmaker>that's something I might write in a formal letter though
16:37<Chrill>Thank you all :)
16:37<frosch123>planetmaker: though it is nice that you stopped your multiple personalities
16:38<nighthawk_c_m>That would work too Chrill, my translation was formal, thats right planetmaker
16:38<frosch123>"seit ich eins bin" :p
16:38<planetmaker>hahaha :-)
16:39<planetmaker>before I was at least three :-P Even Freud already knew that ;-)
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17:03<Rubidium>night Belugas
17:04<@Belugas>may the night be kind with you Rubidium
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17:04*Belugas is gone
17:09<planetmaker>andythenorth: <-- not quite elaborate, but something like that
17:10<planetmaker>the tabs could probably be mimiced by appropriate button handling
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17:10<andythenorth>planetmaker: stick around for 10mins, I'm working on something....
17:10<planetmaker>I'll be there another 10 minutes, yes
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17:13<Rubidium>it's >640x480 :)
17:14<planetmaker>it should be exactly 640x480
17:14<Zuu>Its 641x485
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17:14<planetmaker>but then it's a mockup only ;-). So inkscape saved the parts which overlap, too
17:15<Zuu>Indeed, those extra pixels does hardly matter.
17:23<planetmaker> <-- still too big, but with the newgrf selection dialogue open
17:24<Ammler>no "next" button?
17:24<Ammler>how do you go forward?
17:24<Zuu>Click at the tabs at the top?
17:24<Ammler>that isn't logical
17:25<Zuu>Depends on where you come from.
17:25<Ammler>or obvious at least :-)
17:26<Ammler>well, I know no "wizard" working that way, do you?
17:26<Ammler>tabs might be fine to indicate where you are
17:26<Zuu>Depends if you want to make it like a wizard or more like something with several tabs.
17:26<Ammler>but then you need a button start game
17:26<Ammler>on every tab
17:27<Zuu>It's at the bottom, always vissible
17:27<planetmaker>Ammler: clicking on tabs is quite logical to me
17:27<Ammler>ah, "Generate World" is a button?
17:27<planetmaker>but next and previous could go next to the generate button in the bottom
17:27<Zuu>The tab-book widget would end not at the bottom but say 60 pixles up from the bottom of the window.
17:27<Ammler>no, all fine then :-)
17:28<andythenorth>Ammler it's not a wizard
17:28<andythenorth>it wizard is *really* annoying
17:28<Ammler>andythenorth: yeah, I see now
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17:29<andythenorth>planetmaker: in the design above....I would propose a future addition of 'more info'
17:29<andythenorth>for each newgrf (with a popup window)
17:29<planetmaker>hm, yes
17:30<andythenorth>I am pushing the two list thing to see if it works
17:30<andythenorth>(side by side lists I should say)
17:30<planetmaker>andythenorth: IMHO in your mockup the tabs are not clearly enough visible as tabs
17:30<andythenorth>nope they aren't very 'tab'
17:31<andythenorth>I'm not happy with those.
17:31<planetmaker>you may notice that I just used Alberth's newgrf GUI ;-)
17:31<Ammler>dunno, if "tab" is openttdish
17:31<Ammler>buttons looks nice
17:31<Zuu>Old advanced settings dialog had it.
17:31<planetmaker>my mockup rather targeted the gui as a whole with an inset for the others
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17:31<planetmaker>Ammler: it's a proven, easily recognizable GUI element
17:31<planetmaker>and what Zuu says
17:32<planetmaker>says? sais?
17:32<Ammler>yes, those were buttons like andy made
17:32<Zuu>Depending on if you by 'tab' refer to the kind of gui or making the tabs appear visually as tabs.
17:32<andythenorth>I think on balance I like Alberth's newgrf gui....but tell me, when you have one list above the other, what do the buttons 'move up' and 'move down' imply?
17:32<andythenorth>and arrows don't help either :|
17:33<andythenorth>As a newgrf author I like the big 'info' box in Alberth's design. More space for me :)
17:33<andythenorth>to put words in :)
17:33<planetmaker>andythenorth: I guess those 8 lines which you have in your mockup are quite sufficient in most cases, too
17:33<planetmaker>hm.. or?
17:33<planetmaker>or one just gives it a few lines more
17:33<andythenorth>there are some missing
17:33<Zuu>Especially if a parameter GUI is made.
17:33<andythenorth>well the lists could be shorter
17:33<Zuu>Then you don't have to explain them in words.
17:33<andythenorth>it's scalable
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17:34<andythenorth>this is only 390px high right now
17:34<andythenorth>and it will scale to quite a lot less than 480px
17:34<planetmaker>andythenorth: then we have still some space :-)
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17:35<andythenorth>we need space
17:35<andythenorth>the newgrf names in that mockup are the longest I could find
17:35<planetmaker>yes, they probably are among the longest
17:35<andythenorth>and there is room in the buttons for dutch etc
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17:40<planetmaker>should suffcie, yes
17:41<andythenorth>I've moved the 'go' button to be centred and bigger....looks better
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17:45<Zuu>andythenorth: Not sure if it is indented, but the online content button is missing as well as the reload button in your last mockup.
17:47<Zuu>As well as the set parameters button.
17:47<Zuu>and toggle pallete
17:47<Zuu>Though if a parameter gui is made, the palette could be seen as a parameter and do not need a special button.
17:48<andythenorth>I thought it looked nice and simple :)
17:48<Zuu>Just as all AIs have the same setting in common (days to wait before the AI starts)
17:48<Zuu>the same _first_ setting*
17:48<Zuu>Hehe :-)
17:48<andythenorth>online content is applicable across AIs, maps (heightmaps) and newgrfs?
17:49<Zuu>Yep, it could be placed at the bottom but then you should probably link it to the online content dialog with all types enabled.
17:50<andythenorth>why do we still need reload? Why doesn't reload happen when I open this tab?
17:50<andythenorth>or is there a good optimisation reason?
17:50<Zuu>Or make that a hidden ctrl feature and by default only show the types related to the current tab.
17:50<Yexo>andythenorth: because a reload takes time, I don't want openttd to rescan all newgrfs when I open a different tab on the newgame window
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17:51<andythenorth>that's a good reason
17:51<Yexo>I really like your latest mockup :)
17:51<Zuu>You could have a reload icon similar to a browser at the top right corner of the left panel.
17:51<Terkhen>good night
17:52<andythenorth>Yexo: you like it because it's simple :P I missed off most of the buttons
17:52<andythenorth>good night Terkhen
17:52<Zuu>night Terkhen
17:52<Yexo>night Terkhen
17:52<Yexo>andythenorth: maybe :)
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17:54<andythenorth>640px in dutch with two lists becomes challenging :)
17:54*andythenorth has an idea
17:55<andythenorth>current window has 'parameters' and 'set parameters'
17:55<andythenorth>also 'palette' and 'toggle palette'
17:55*andythenorth sees a simplification
17:56<planetmaker>small arrows next to the "palette" word? ;-)
17:56<andythenorth>like advanced settings
17:56<andythenorth>and there must be something we can do for parameters
17:57<Zuu>For parameters, take a look on how it works for NoAI. But I guess you've seen that dialog :-)
17:58<Zuu>I guess you need in the grf spec to name the settings and give them upper/lower limits.
17:58<andythenorth>Zuu we might need a whole load of stuff to do with strings and bit maps
17:59<andythenorth>but for now I'd be happy to just have a 'set parameters' button in a convenient place
17:59<Zuu>Initially we can leave the parameter guis as they are right now.
17:59<Zuu>Having them in a separate window later will probably be okay.
17:59<Zuu>Or it can be integrated at a later point.
18:00<Yexo>Zuu: <- newgrf spec for extra information about the parameters
18:00<andythenorth>there's no layout that will fit everyone's wishes into <640px :)
18:00<andythenorth>so a separate window for parameters is fine
18:00<andythenorth>nothing wrong with separate windows :) It's the flow through them that matters :o
18:00<Zuu>And for reference (obviously not for you Yexo, but maybe for andy) here is how the parameters work in NoAI:
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18:02<Zuu>In this case I even think it could be good to have a separte window for settings/parameters of NewGRFs/AIs.
18:03<Yexo>I agree, showing the active / available AIs in one window would be nice (same as the new newgrf gui)
18:03<Zuu>Perhaps make the "make active" button double-height and add the parameters button adove/below "make inactive"?
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18:06<Zuu>Also nice to have a consistant gui between newgrfs and ais. Though there will be some minor differences. Such as being able to add multiple AIs of the same kind. But those are still small enough that it doesn't stop the posibility to use fairly similar guis.
18:06<planetmaker>good night for now
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18:14<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you requested a large info panel for newgrfs <-- no... i mean yes, but that's not what i meant. i meant in the newgrf forum the bit about determining the quadrant
18:14<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: have I missed a message from you somewhere?
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>i thought you were replying to this: <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i wrote a reply on the forum, hope it's helpful...
18:16<andythenorth>it was helpful thanks
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18:31<andythenorth>too many buttons :P
18:34<andythenorth>why don't AIs have to be reloaded?
18:34<andythenorth>sorry, rescanned
18:36<andythenorth>good night
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18:41<Yexo>andythenorth: AIs also need to be rescanned if you put a new AI in the ai/ directory
18:41<Yexo>it could be there is currently no button for that in the gui, but there is a commandline function IIRC
18:41<andythenorth>where is the button for that?
18:42*andythenorth wonders if rescan button can be deprecated
18:42<Yexo>AIs are rescanned automatically after downloading some via the online content, and also every time a game is started/loaded
18:42<Eddi|zuHause>the key above tab opens the command line
18:42<andythenorth>the 'rescan' button seems like one button too many
18:43<andythenorth>although I do actually make use of it often
18:43<Yexo>why do you use it?
18:44<andythenorth>hmmm not sure
18:44<andythenorth>occasionally I manually add or delete a newgrf
18:44<Yexo>it's a useless button imo, the only case you need it if you manually put some grf in the data directory and want to use it without restarting openttd
18:45<Yexo>but then there is a console command for it
18:45<andythenorth>is there one now? Does reload_newgrfs also rescan?
18:45<Yexo>isn't there?
18:45<andythenorth>not sure right now
18:46<Yexo>apparently not
18:46<andythenorth>ho hum
18:47<PeterT>andythenorth: looks nice
18:47<PeterT>color change <3
18:47<andythenorth>I would like to eliminate the rescan button, and I think the buttons for setting newgrf palette / parameters are confusing
18:47<andythenorth>one button 'configure newgrf' would be better
18:47<Yexo>what about adding a scrollbar for the info panel for those newgrfs with a lot of text?
18:47<andythenorth>can't have three vertical scrollbars in a window
18:48<andythenorth>but otherwise....yes :)
18:48<Yexo>something for alberth to work on support for that :)
18:48<andythenorth>how often does the palette need to be switched?
18:48<andythenorth>I've never done it
18:49<Yexo>only if you use base graphics with a windows palette and a newgrf with the dos palette (or the other way around)
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19:07<Eddi|zuHause>#Wir sind die Saunafreunde Aufguss 09, der erste deutsche Spitzen Schwitz Verein
19:07<Eddi|zuHause># Wenn wir in uns'rer spitze Klitsche, auf der glitsche Pritsche schwitzen
19:07<Eddi|zuHause># Schwitze Schweiß verspritzen, dabei zwetschge Schnäpse zwitschern
19:08<Eddi|zuHause># Muss man beschwipste Schwitzer schonmal bisschen stützen
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19:10<Eddi|zuHause>[try singing that outloud :p]
19:11<__ln__>Deutschland hat leider in Eishockey heute verloren.
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>i heard, but i had no idea we even played ice hockey :)
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure you can find youtube videos about "Aufguss 09" [Jürgen von der Lippe]...
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20:03<Eddi|zuHause>hm... something is not right... i have files magically disappearing...
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---Logclosed Tue May 11 00:00:33 2010