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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-05-12

---Logopened Wed May 12 00:00:34 2010
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02:18<planetmaker> <-- does that look about alright, Rubidium andythenorth Ammler ?
02:21<argkde4>unasked for opinion: my sense of symmetry needs some space beneath the southwest/southeast buttons :)
02:21<planetmaker>every opinion is welcome. And you're perfectly right
02:22<argkde4>and the generate button might as well be centered
02:23<planetmaker>I thought about that but decided against.
02:23<planetmaker>First think I look to finish something is in the corners
02:23<argkde4>because of its size, it makes the box look lopsided to me
02:24<planetmaker>but it could well span the whole width. But that looks a bit stupid, too
02:24<ccfreak2k>planetmaker, why are three buttons on the top pressed?
02:24<planetmaker>that's mimicing tabs
02:24<planetmaker>the active one isn't
02:25<ccfreak2k>If map is the currently selected tab, I think they need to be inverted.
02:25<argkde4>and a nitpick.. the "pressed" highlight of the AI button looks as if its wider than the box
02:25<argkde4>ccfreak2k: me too
02:26<planetmaker>ccfreak2k: a tab should IMHO blend in with what it relates to. Reverting pressed / unpressed does exactly the opposite
02:26<ccfreak2k>It doesn't actually look like a tab, though.
02:26<ccfreak2k>It looks like a button.
02:26<planetmaker>and yes, the AI button seems to extend 1px to the right. Which I think is a window system glitch
02:27<planetmaker>so I guess I should get rid of the separation line between main panel and button?
02:27<argkde4>yeah, the tab should have the same background color as the rest of the panel, however in that case it needs to lose the separator between the "tabs" and the rest of the box
02:27<Arkenklo>the wiki is mucked up, what's the public server address?
02:28<Arkenklo>oh sorry btw, wrong channel :)
02:28<dihedral>Arkenklo: the point of a wiki (no matter where it is) is mostly that users (e.g. YOU) can also 'un'-muck it
02:28<argkde4>planetmaker: the AI button might be one pixel too large
02:29<planetmaker>argkde4: yes. But it's automatically sized...
02:29<argkde4>planetmaker: ah, ok
02:29<dihedral>planetmaker: northwest / southwest buttons need to be moved over some pixels to be aligned
02:30<ccfreak2k>dihedral, even if he wanted to, it's pretty clear that he couldn't quite yet as he lacks the necessary information to do so.
02:31<Arkenklo>dihedral: I can't un-muck php errors
02:31<dihedral>ah LOL
02:32<Terkhen>good morning
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04:46<andythenorth>planetmaker: you stayed up late :o
04:47<planetmaker>a bit
04:47<planetmaker>and good morning
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05:42<planetmaker> <-- andythenorth: which of the two images looks actually better?
05:43<dihedral>the lower one? :-P
05:43<dihedral>though the wording in the active tab could do with some more padding
05:43<planetmaker>yes, they do
05:43<planetmaker>But that's a separate issue
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05:47<andythenorth>planetmaker: do you know how much layout control there is resp. menus and their labels?
05:48<andythenorth>the map gen screen would be better with labels aligned right
05:48<planetmaker>arbitrary layout is nearly possible. But why labels right? I read ltr
05:49<andythenorth>empirically, labels aligned along the left edge are the worst layout for forms / dialogs
05:49<andythenorth>the best layout for commonly used forms is labels aligned right edge.
05:50<andythenorth>graphic designers don't like it because they think it looks weird. It also has higher cicade times because the line start is harder to acquire. but overall it works
05:50<andythenorth>look at any form in the OS X system preferences :)
05:51<andythenorth>the best form layout for hardly-used forms is actually labels above the controls. This looks awful, but for some reason proves the fastest to use in testing :o
05:51<planetmaker>hm... andythenorth there it varies
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05:51<@peter1138>"Account lockout duration" doesn't seem to work for me :s
05:54<andythenorth>which implies my argument is wrong, but I have the rest of the book :)
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05:55<andythenorth>when we are familiar with something (like the map gen), we actually read the words on the form controls, not their labels, and then the left edge is just distracting
05:55*andythenorth goes back to day job
06:01<Rubidium>andythenorth: that URL times out
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06:09<@peter1138>argh, rsync's "max connections" module config is per server :(
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08:57<__ln__>61 dutch
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09:01<Eddi|zuHause>hm... .de domain is very screwed up today...
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09:04<dihedral>Eddi|zuHause: has a good cache
09:04<dihedral>i currently am using that :-P
09:04<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: i know that link, doesn't open here
09:05<dihedral>as i said - use dns servers
09:05<dihedral>they have a cache in place, and i have not been able to not reach a .de address so far with those dns servers
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: i tried to reach and earlier today, and got redirected to an opendns search page
09:06<Sacro>wi use google dns, and
09:07<dihedral>Eddi|zuHause: i can reach at least
09:08<__ln__> opens for me
09:08<__ln__>Sacro: yes, and that helps google with collecting a profile about you.
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>i'm getting more and more google-paranoid
09:09<__ln__>Noldo: english only
09:09<dihedral>__ln__: google already has that profile about Sacro - aint that hard for someone with a one tracked mind
09:15<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19793 /trunk/projects/ (4 files): -Add [FS#3657]: source.list to the Visual Studio solutions and run the project file regeneration when source.list changes (adf88)
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: something is weird, nslookup works
09:15<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19794 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Fix: missing header in MSVC project files
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>but the browser says it can't be found
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>ipv6 is disabled
09:16<Rubidium>nslookup using another dns server?
09:17<Eddi|zuHause>i thought all are using /etc/resolv.conf?
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>"die DENIC hat die DE-Zone versehentlich signiert und alle nicht-DNSSEC-faehigen Resolver haben nun Probleme."
09:28<planetmaker>hello Belugas
09:28<@Belugas>hello mister planetmaker :)
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09:35<yorick>you can use servers and, the google ones
09:35<__ln__>yorick: 16:08 < __ln__> Sacro: yes, and that helps google with collecting a profile about you.
09:36<yorick>I like google knowing me
09:36<yorick>it's like we're friends
09:36<yorick>"look we can personalize your dns lookups"
09:38<Sacro>they don't keep the logs that long
09:38<Eddi|zuHause>that's what they are telling you...
09:40<yorick>"no longer than 24 to 48 hours", officially
09:40<yorick>and geoip data for 2 weeks
09:40<yorick>and parts of it permanently "for debugging purposes"
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09:44<Eddi|zuHause>... means they construct an "example database" for toying around?
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10:19<orudge_>Continental breakfast only? Tsk, that's discriminating against the British, that is! :p
10:20<@peter1138>alas not, because it was full english breakfast before that
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11:38*Belugas wishes svn cleanup would really do a cleanup, and remove files that has been created before forced closure of svn up :S
11:41<__ln__>is the letter 'ó' used in french?
11:43<planetmaker>not afaik
11:44<planetmaker>à, é, è, ê, î IIRC what I learnt back at school
11:44<planetmaker>hm... ô maybe
11:45<planetmaker>yeah... the c is something I cannot type on my keyboard ;-)
11:45<@Belugas>a cookie to planetmaker and peter1138
11:45<planetmaker>yes, no cedile here
11:45<planetmaker>not quite ;-)
11:45<Mazur>Multikey c+,
11:45<+glx>planetmaker: and ï and ë
11:45<@peter1138>no, that's altgr+c
11:46<planetmaker>glx, yeah... but those I don't consider a separate vowel
11:46<planetmaker>they just indicate that it's pronounced separately
11:46<planetmaker>or do I err?
11:46<planetmaker>Like Aida
11:46<+glx>ô too, but I don't remember seeing î
11:46<@Belugas>alt-135 in here
11:47<planetmaker>fenaître? or is it over the a?
11:47<Mazur>Celeste Aïda.
11:47<+glx>yes trema is for pronounciation
11:47<+glx>fenêtre :)
11:47<planetmaker>he :-) ok
11:47<+glx>silence ;)
11:47<@peter1138>i guess they're mostly written without the accents in english these days
11:48<Mazur>C'est fenêtre où fenaitre, pas fenaître, je pense.
11:48<planetmaker>we germanize those French words: Yoghurt -> Joghurt; Café -> Kaffee :-)
11:49<+glx>I already said it was ê ;)
11:49<__ln__>"pense" = think?
11:49<__ln__>pensar in spanish
11:49<planetmaker>hm... cafè. Yes. looks better
11:49<+glx>no café
11:49<+glx>the sound matters ;)
11:50<planetmaker>my French is way too rusty, I think
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11:50<Mazur>' to for a long vowel, ` for shortened.
11:50<+glx>not really
11:50<planetmaker>rather for a different kind of e
11:51<+glx>but a and à use the same sound (it's just a grammatical thing)
11:51<planetmaker>hm... what is it?
11:52<planetmaker>deux pomme à douze kilo ;-)
11:53<+glx>which is not the same as "deux pomme a douze kilo" ;)
11:53<+glx>"a" being a verb then
11:53<planetmaker>ah... rrrrright :-)
11:54<+glx>and in this case the sentense has no sense
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11:55<+glx>anyway the right version makes no sense either ;)
11:55<planetmaker>hehe :-)
11:56<Mazur>Two apples have 12 kilo.
11:56<planetmaker>It wasn't meant to be an entire sentence. Rather like "J'ai 2 pomme à 12 kilo"
11:56<Mazur>Two apple have 12 kilo.
11:56<planetmaker>two apples of 12 kilo each
11:56<+glx>"de" then
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11:57<Mazur>./dcc send planetmaker tin_of_'s'
11:57<+glx>but they are very big
11:57<planetmaker>numbers were always a pain with de and aux and ...
11:57<planetmaker>yes, they are. They're surely genetically manipulated
11:58<planetmaker>"Please call Stella. Ask her to bring these things with her from the store: Six spoons of fresh snow peas, five thick slabs of blue cheese, and maybe a snack for her brother Bob. We also need a small plastic snake and a big toy frog for the kids. She can scoop these things into three red bags, and we will go meet her Wednesday at the train station. "
11:59<planetmaker>So phonetic or grammar test texts don't have to make sense :-)
11:59<planetmaker> <-- but it's quite nice listening
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12:00<+glx>I know an unwrittable french sentence
12:00<+glx>well it's partly writtable, but not the end ;)
12:01<+glx>it plays with phonetic
12:01<planetmaker>aye. So quite ambiguous, I think?
12:01<+glx>"un sot sur un ane transportait dans son seau le sceau du roi, l'ane trébucha, les trois [sot/seau/sceau] tomberent"
12:02<planetmaker>uh... :-)
12:03<+glx>sot, seau and sceau have the same pronouciation
12:03<planetmaker>yeah, I figured :-)
12:03<planetmaker>it's far easier to pronounce a French sentence than to understand it ;-)
12:05<+glx>for once google is almost rigth
12:05<planetmaker>what is wrong with it?
12:06<+glx>un sot sur un ane transportait dans son seau le sceau du roi -> a fool on a donkey carrying a bucket in the seal of King
12:06<planetmaker>yes, I got that, too ;-)
12:06<+glx>it inverted the last thing
12:06<+glx>the seal is in the bucket
12:06<planetmaker>yeah :-)
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12:08*planetmaker wonders at the host mask... whether it's coincidence or not
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12:55<planetmaker> <-- does anyone have a clue as of what's going on / wrong?
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13:37<planetmaker>hello Alberth
13:38<Alberth>hai pm
13:38<planetmaker>can you borrow me a bit of your time? I'm trying to solve a GUI problem... but I fail to see where I miss something
13:39*Alberth looks at the time supply
13:39<Alberth>ok, can do :)
13:40<planetmaker>I tried to layout where I'm stuck in those two postings. And I wonder why the 2nd diff displays the button state and the first not
13:40<planetmaker>I define a stacked widget
13:40-!-Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
13:40<planetmaker>if I make the buttons part of that stacked one... I get the results I don't understand
13:41<planetmaker>If I declare the button row out of that scope... it works. But the visual result is not quite what I like to achieve
13:42<Alberth>I should try seperate_buttons.diff ?
13:42<planetmaker>genmap.diff is what I don't understand
13:42<planetmaker>separate_buttons.diff is what I do understand
13:43<planetmaker>I expect them to behave the same
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19795 /trunk/src/lang/ (galician.txt polish.txt):
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: galician - 5 changes by Drenghist
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: polish - 3 changes by silver_777
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: russian - 3 changes by
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13:58<planetmaker>Alberth: if I should break down the case more... please tell.
13:59<Alberth>I am a bit surprised it works at all
14:01<Alberth>At different planes you use the same enum values for the widgets.
14:01<planetmaker>should it be different ones?
14:02<Alberth>it was not intended to be used that way, and I thought you'd get a big fight about the pointer in the widget array
14:02<Alberth>yes, each NWidget() that you make should have a unique index.
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14:03<planetmaker>hm, ok, so I basically would need to define it three times, once for each plane where gets displayed?
14:03<planetmaker>I'll try that :-)
14:04<Alberth>that should work, I think
14:04<planetmaker>thank you so much :-)
14:04<Alberth>you can move the WWT_PANEL out of the NWID_SELECTION
14:05<planetmaker>hm, yes :-)
14:05<Alberth>and use a NWID_VERTICAL for the first one :)
14:05<Alberth>I like the effect that you managed to create
14:06<planetmaker>which of the screens? :-) The one which I like (with the seamless tabs)?
14:07<Alberth>the first screenshot yes
14:07*Alberth ponders whether there is a simpler way
14:08<planetmaker>hm, my idea originally is to have the non-active buttons shown in a pressed state, so that they optically differ from the back plane.
14:08<planetmaker>But that's then just a line per button to decide that after all
14:08<planetmaker>[20:05] <Alberth> and use a NWID_VERTICAL for the first one :) <-- you referred to which widget there actually?
14:09<Alberth>the first panel, as it contains more than one sub-widget
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14:10<planetmaker>Yes... both vertically and horizontally. Is it better to have them explicitly vertically aligned?
14:10<Alberth>WWT_PANEL has an implicit NWID_VERTICAL inside
14:11<Alberth>+ drawing of the edges :)
14:12<Alberth>How scary solution do you want?
14:12<planetmaker>so what advantage is there to move that out of NWID_SELECTION and then introducing an NWID_VERTICAL ?
14:12<planetmaker>I don't mind scary solutions ;-)
14:13<Alberth>A very creepy one would be to change the type of the button widget to a text or a label widget
14:13<planetmaker>I mean... it's going to get really scary once adv. settings and newgrf GUI get included :-P
14:13<planetmaker>Alberth: yes, Label :-)
14:14<Alberth>(08:14:46 PM) planetmaker: so what advantage is there to move that out of NWID_SELECTION and then introducing an NWID_VERTICAL ? <-- ok, perhaps the advantage is not that big
14:14<Alberth>evening andythenorth
14:16<andythenorth>did I miss anything? :)
14:16<planetmaker>not really
14:16<planetmaker>Alberth: what would be the advantage, even if it's small?
14:17<planetmaker>besides... yes, the active tab is - as I envision it - not drawn by a button but by a label instead
14:17<planetmaker>I just figured out that there's a label widget after I posted those diffs :-)
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14:17<andythenorth>planetmaker: fun with tabs?
14:17<Weeknie>Hi all*
14:17<planetmaker>But the inactive ones need to be somewhat distinguishable from the one being active
14:17<planetmaker>andythenorth: yes. And it's going to work :-)
14:18<Alberth>planetmaker: I was thinking to move the buttons out of the selection too
14:18<andythenorth>looks very promising....think they need some more graphical thought :o
14:18<Alberth>in that case you need a background behind the label
14:18<Rubidium>hi Weeknie
14:18<planetmaker>Alberth: ok... and then I still need to change them depending upon what is selected
14:19<planetmaker>But I mainly want it seamless with the main display
14:19<planetmaker>IMHO that gives the best clue as to what is going on there :-)
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14:19<Alberth>I like seamless too
14:19<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19796 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: introduce and use a {DEPOT} string command
14:19<andythenorth>shall we start a company to make openttd MMO?
14:20*andythenorth carries on reading suggestions forum
14:20<planetmaker>Otherwise something like would work easily with buttons as is
14:20<planetmaker>or - moving it out of scope - it would need to define a new button without border :-)
14:20<Weeknie>Andythenorth, you know
14:21<Weeknie>I might participate in that
14:21<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19797 /trunk/src/lang/ (50 files in 2 dirs): -Cleanup: language files due to r19796
14:21<Weeknie>I'm quite experienced in web dev:P
14:21<planetmaker>or... if it's on the same panel... maybe not
14:21<planetmaker>Alberth: can I hide a widget completely?
14:21*andythenorth modifies the newgrf gui to see if it works at 320x200
14:21<andythenorth>the answer will be no
14:21<andythenorth>everyone wants a fricking pony
14:22<Alberth>completely hiding, either with a stacked widget, and selecting another display plane
14:22<andythenorth>I did design my newgrf mockup to be smaller....but
14:23<Alberth>or keeping a flag about its size, and calling ReInit() to rebuild the widget sizes
14:23<planetmaker>hm... sounds like the current solution with them on the same plane is easier than re-building everything
14:23<andythenorth>so let me understand....the newgrf lists need to be 290px to avoid truncation (including scrollbar). And two of them are supposed to fit into 320px. Seems like a basic failure of arithmetic :P
14:24-!-fonsinchen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:24<Alberth>NWidgetCore has a disp_flags enum. Perhaps you could add a flag for a button to not draw the bottom part
14:24<andythenorth>the current newgrf GUI is 300x275, and twice as much information is supposed to fit into 320x200px??
14:24<planetmaker>hm... that might be interesting.
14:24*andythenorth stops ranting
14:25*Alberth is happy with the summary of the forum posts, I got grabbed by pm :)
14:25-!-Lakie [~Lakie@] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
14:25<planetmaker>I'll be back in an hour. Then I'll have more widget fun :-) Thanks a lot already, Alberth :-)
14:25<planetmaker>hehe :-)
14:26<Rubidium>andythenorth: but less is more!
14:26<Alberth>you can also have 5 selection widgets, 4 for the buttons, and one for the display below
14:28<Rubidium>what's so bad about ?
14:29<Weeknie>em, what's supposed to be bad about it?
14:29<Weeknie>The lenght versus width is a little odd, but well:P
14:31<andythenorth>ok, so the tabs....I might be worrying about nothing, but if we make the 'selected' state look like the 'up' state of every other button in the game, we might baffle players a little?
14:31<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19798 /trunk/src/ (town.h waypoint_base.h waypoint_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: generalise the waypoint naming method
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14:32<Rubidium>andythenorth: but it's used elsewhere as well
14:33<andythenorth>I'm looking....
14:33<Rubidium>vehicle details
14:33<Rubidium>though, it looks different in there
14:33<Rubidium>but in theory those are just tabs as well
14:34*andythenorth sighs. three different nightlies assert when I go to build a vehicle.
14:35<andythenorth>newgrf problem
14:36-!-ajmiles [] has joined #openttd
14:38*andythenorth looks for an easy 'tab' solution
14:38<andythenorth>any massive limitations I should know about in the code to draw windows?
14:41-!-Fast2 [] has joined #openttd
14:43<Alberth>you must use C++
14:43-!-George [~George@] has joined #openttd
14:43<andythenorth>next time I'll ask a better question
14:44-!-George is now known as Guest665
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14:51<Alberth>One of the better solutions is probably to make a new widget type
14:54-!-yorick [] has joined #openttd
14:54<Alberth>a tab-button widget is simpler than a tab-bar widget, I think. However is a number of tab-button widgets enough to make a tab-bar?
14:55<Alberth>you could also make both
15:00<planetmaker>Alberth: properly drawn tab button widgets would suffice, I think
15:02<planetmaker>[20:58] <andythenorth> [20:31:35] ok, so the tabs....I might be worrying about nothing, but if we make the 'selected' state look like the 'up' state of every other button in the game, we might baffle players a little? <-- I don't think it applies here really
15:03-!-welshdragon [~welshdrag@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:03<planetmaker>as the active tab description integrates seamless into what it displays
15:05<andythenorth>planetmaker but the other buttons look like the 'pushed' state of other buttons....
15:05<andythenorth>I think it's resolvable
15:06<andythenorth>it just needs a little thought :)
15:06<andythenorth>I was working on a interrupted
15:07<andythenorth>compare station building dialog buttons for's clear which is selected and which is active
15:07*andythenorth thinks
15:08<planetmaker> <-- if you look at that I think it's quite clear what is active and what not
15:11<andythenorth>but the other tabs look like the 'down' state for nearly every other button in the game, which says to me 'not a button I can click'
15:11*andythenorth is trying not to be helpful no argumentative
15:12<planetmaker>andythenorth: so... re-colour the buttons? Or not recess them at all and do it like
15:13<planetmaker>which in all honesty is the easiest solution ;-)
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15:13<andythenorth>yes, that one is not 100% pretty, but it's more usable
15:14<andythenorth>I need to fool around in photoshop to find an 'ideal' solution that works with current style, but might turn out to uncodable :)
15:18<andythenorth>planetmaker: this is my first step. It has various problems, but it gets the right 'feel' for tab buttons
15:18<andythenorth>let me try some more...
15:18-!-Darkdjinn [] has joined #openttd
15:18<Darkdjinn>hello there
15:19<Darkdjinn>i got a question to ask about vecles after when you make a new game at 2015 and above
15:19<planetmaker>andythenorth: good idea to invert colours...
15:19<planetmaker>hello Darkdjinn
15:19<Darkdjinn>when you make a new train station and want to build trans there is no new wecles more then diesel train
15:19<andythenorth>planetmaker: it's mostly about making the highlight / shadows appear correctly in the layer depths
15:20<planetmaker>andythenorth: that's feasable. I'll play with that
15:20<andythenorth>I'll try a few more variations
15:20<Darkdjinn>i would like to know why there is just 1 train to build and not the older ones or more new ones at that current year
15:20<planetmaker>Darkdjinn: you might want to electify your tracks
15:21<planetmaker>unless you play in a climate where there are no electric engines
15:21<planetmaker>(like arctic)
15:21<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19799 /trunk/src/ (11 files in 3 dirs): -Change: give depots an unique name in the same manner buoys and waypoints are named
15:21<Darkdjinn>i ment i click in the little house you connect to the train track when its finished built
15:21<planetmaker>yes, the depots
15:21<Darkdjinn>when you purchase a tradn and the vaggons before the start
15:21<Darkdjinn>wy is there just 1 train
15:22<Spoons>You can turn on the older, inferior trains.
15:22<planetmaker>please rephrase
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>Darkdjinn: click and hold on the rail icon in the main toolbar, there you can select "electrified rail"
15:25<Darkdjinn>alright i got it
15:25<Darkdjinn>i have another question about the AI's
15:27<planetmaker> <-- andythenorth
15:27<planetmaker>that's the female colour scheme, I have to admit.
15:27<andythenorth>definitely more usable
15:28<planetmaker>yes, I agree, it's better
15:28<andythenorth>that's a bit more complex (don't miss the changes in the shading at the lhs / rhs window edges
15:29<andythenorth>I think the other route might be better use of time & effort
15:29<planetmaker>that's not really more complex. Actually it's just what I had in the very beginning - with a tiny bit space left and right of the buttons.
15:29<planetmaker>I can live with that
15:29<planetmaker>quite well
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15:29<andythenorth>but the shading and things might be fiddly to achieve?
15:30<planetmaker>you mean light borders?
15:30<andythenorth>yes, to make it appear recessed, not forward
15:31<andythenorth>let me try something simpler to achieve
15:31<planetmaker>andythenorth: changing the border colour is again... something substantially more intrusive
15:32<planetmaker>hm... any hint where the colours are defined?
15:32<andythenorth>I think a good effect can be done hopefully without *too much* work :)
15:32*andythenorth photoshops
15:33-!-Dred_furst [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
15:44<andythenorth>there are some lighting details at window edges that are wrong, and should be ignored for ease of coding. Probably no-one will notice
15:44<andythenorth>FWIW, I don't like the yellow one
15:44<andythenorth>(yellow tabs)
15:45<Weeknie>I know you're not talking to me
15:45<Weeknie>But I took a quick look and I agree with you, I don't like the yellow ones either
15:46<planetmaker>yes, the brownish theme is better
15:46<andythenorth>planetmaker: this has one subtle change, I think it's worth it :)
15:46<planetmaker>even better
15:47<andythenorth>the whole thing could be brown, yellow, purple, green, blue. I don't mind right now. It's the relative shades / depth that matters :)
15:47<andythenorth>does that help?
15:47<andythenorth>or hinder?
15:48<@peter1138>svg gui!
15:49<@peter1138>OS-native widgets!
15:49<andythenorth>we could do it in flash :P
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15:51<@peter1138>i wonder why the left and right lists are drawn differently
15:51<@peter1138>(other than "that's how they are at the moment")
15:51<andythenorth>"that's how they are at the moment"
15:51<@peter1138>OTHER THAN :D
15:51<andythenorth>mockup is built from screenshots of existing gui
15:51<andythenorth>I guess that is easier to fool with in code than photoshop
15:52<@peter1138>wasn't the 'original new newgrf gui' rejected because it was too wide?
15:52*andythenorth ponders proving the two list thing can go narrow with some minor usability fail
15:53-!-snack2 [] has joined #openttd
15:53<planetmaker>andythenorth: I understand that mainly the shade is important, not the absolute colours, yes :-)
15:54<andythenorth>am I making your life much harder? :P
15:56-!-|Jeroen| [] has quit [Quit: oO]
16:00<planetmaker>not really
16:00<planetmaker>well, yes :-P
16:01*planetmaker needs to figure out how to pass frame flags to a widget
16:03<CIA-6>OpenTTD: belugas * r19800 /trunk/src/table/town_land.h: -Codechange: Replace magic number by corresponding constant
16:03<@Belugas>surprise surprise!
16:03<planetmaker>:-) A Belugas commit. And... sounds like a nice one :-)
16:04<@Belugas>nope... just... some text change...
16:04<planetmaker>did you wait for that number? ;-)
16:04<@Belugas>i wold have waited for 19640 instead ;)
16:05<andythenorth>I don't think it's worth finishing the narrow version as I don't think it's necessary for proof of concept
16:05-!-Polygon [] has joined #openttd
16:05<andythenorth>the lists fit, the rest can be jammed in if....if text areas have wrapping
16:06<andythenorth>and they appear to
16:07<andythenorth>dunno about the tabs though
16:07<planetmaker>depends upon how they get implemented
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16:09<andythenorth>personally I'm not too worried about 350px
16:09<yorick>andythenorth: that's plain ugly :)
16:09<andythenorth>Rubidium told me 640 wide, and I believe his opinion counts for something around here :)
16:09<yorick>andythenorth: maybe if you remove the padding on the left
16:10<yorick>and recht
16:10<andythenorth>probably.....I'm hitting the limit of what's worth doing in photoshop. Easier in code
16:10<andythenorth>I imagine
16:11<yorick>it might be nice if it looked less "split"
16:12<yorick>there's two "islands" called Inactive and Active now
16:12-!-theholyduck [~holyduck@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:15<Rubidium>Belugas: 19640 has already passed
16:18<@Belugas>yeah ... sadly... 45 years ago
16:18<@Belugas>more or less
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16:19<argkde4>has anyone tried that dialog with a pair of lists with buttons that move stuff from the "out" list to the "in" list?
16:20<argkde4>well i guess on this particular panel stuff == newgrfs
16:21<Alberth>oh, I thought andy had made a new cargo :p
16:21<Alberth>I tried it once
16:21<Adambean> :: Portal on Steam for FREE until Monday 24th May.
16:22<argkde4>hmm.. stuff as a cargo?
16:23<Alberth>oh, we already have such a cargo, it is called OpenTTD :D
16:24<argkde4>as much as it pains me to use this particular source..,office.11%29.jpg
16:24<Ammler>sorry dear Canadians :-)
16:26<argkde4>far too narrow, but yeah
16:27<argkde4>and whoever named their grf "<-------Landscape..." needs to be taken out back and shot
16:27<argkde4>oh, are those headings?
16:27-!-devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:27<Alberth>I think they are supposed to be headings, biut I never understood them
16:28<Alberth>I also never really tried, as I hardly use the window at all
16:30<argkde4>edit the config file instead?
16:31<Alberth>you think the average window user is capable of even finding that file?
16:31<Alberth>let alone edit it :p
16:32<Alberth>also, I am told there are several 100s of grfs typically, not something you want to search through manually
16:33<planetmaker>they serve no other purpose than adding them as headings to the active newgrf list
16:33<planetmaker>not quite useful
16:33*planetmaker compiles *gui.cpp
16:34<Alberth>another mystery solved
16:35<argkde4>Alberth: i tried to assist a windows user to file the file while reading the list of the expected locations and failed :)
16:35<planetmaker>may I say again that the new GUI system makes much more sense than the old one?
16:36-!-devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@] has joined #openttd
16:36<argkde4>oh my
16:36<Alberth>glad to hear it :)
16:37<planetmaker>it's a nice feeling when things actually start to make sense :-)
16:37<argkde4>is it that they're making sense, or that your mind has become twisted enough to understand it? :)
16:38<andythenorth>yorick: islands?
16:38<Alberth>argkde4: can you tell the difference?
16:38<yorick>andythenorth: yes
16:38-!-Zuu [] has joined #openttd
16:38<argkde4>Alberth: the conventional wisdom is that the insane person is the last to realize it
16:39<Zuu>planetmaker: I'm sorry I was only able to remark on your coding style. To give help on the actual problem I would need to play around with the widget array.
16:39<Alberth>good thing I don't consider myself very sane
16:39*andythenorth looks for islands
16:39<andythenorth>where islands?
16:39<planetmaker>Zuu: it's mostly solved meanwhile
16:40<planetmaker>I consulted the expert here :-)
16:40<planetmaker>being entirely sane is boring
16:40<andythenorth>can anyone see islands?
16:41<Zuu>Just look for from where the smoke is comming. ;-)
16:41<yorick>andythenorth: islands in the middle
16:42<planetmaker> <-- andythenorth Zuu Alberth : non-recessed but light buttons
16:42*andythenorth looks harder for islands
16:42<planetmaker>it costs 3k of patch size ;-)
16:43<andythenorth>planetmaker: sorry, I'm looking for islands, can't stop to look at your screenie :P
16:43<planetmaker>they're on my screenies! ;-)
16:43<Zuu>a problem with andys last image at tt-forums is that that the height curves do not work out correctly.
16:44<yorick>planetmaker: those are different islands
16:44<yorick>I was talking about "islands" not islands
16:44<Zuu>And that makes me kind of irritated. :-p
16:44<yorick>andythenorth: in the middle
16:44<andythenorth>of the sea?
16:44<yorick>andythenorth: no of the window
16:45*andythenorth looks for islands
16:45<yorick>andythenorth: they are floating
16:45<yorick>right in the middle
16:45<yorick>next to eachother
16:46<yorick>andythenorth: let me get you some ascii art
16:46<andythenorth>yorick: can you indicate these islands on a screenshot?
16:47-!-Fast2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:47<Alberth>planetmaker: I'd expect the unselected buttons to be slightly darker than the selected ones, not lighter
16:47<Alberth>but difference in colour is good
16:47<yorick>andythenorth: then I'll have to edit them :D
16:48<planetmaker>Alberth: you mean not as light as selected buttons elsewhere?
16:48<Rubidium>lol... classic communication failure. If someone doesn't understand something, don't explain it with the same words (in a different order?)
16:49*andythenorth found some islands
16:50<Alberth>planetmaker: the seamless one should have the same colour as the panel, but the unselected buttons draw too much attention imho.
16:50<andythenorth>planetmaker: I can help, I am one handed again though
16:50<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19801 /trunk/ (11 files in 4 dirs): -Add [FS#3691]: custom naming of depots. Based on work by sbr
16:50<yorick>andythenorth: yeah those islands
16:50<planetmaker>Alberth: ok, I'll see. That can be changed :-)
16:50<planetmaker>good point, though
16:51-!-enr1x [~kiike@] has joined #openttd
16:51<andythenorth>so the 'islands' are the two lists?
16:51<yorick>andythenorth: yep
16:51*andythenorth is speechless
16:51<Alberth>good night
16:51<andythenorth>planetmaker, Alberth cancel the 2-list gui
16:51<argkde4>andythenorth: thats actually really cool, ship that :)
16:52<planetmaker>good night Alberth
16:52<Rubidium>night Alberth
16:52<Rubidium>happy dreams :)
16:52<andythenorth>bye Alberth
16:52<yorick>bye Alberth
16:52<yorick>andythenorth: yw
16:53<yorick>andythenorth: that's cool yes
16:53*Alberth must remember that remark until tomorrow
16:53<yorick>but a bit glitchy :D
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16:53<argkde4>andythenorth: extra points if the water is animated while configuring the game :)
16:53<yorick>andythenorth: make that the whole screen
16:54<andythenorth>argkde4: extra points if the water is *not* animated - that is harder
16:54<argkde4>andythenorth: heh
16:55<yorick>andythenorth: bonus points if the user can control the water animation with his mind
16:55<yorick>double bonus if only the water
16:55<yorick>and not the rest of the GUI
16:55<andythenorth>planetmaker: sorry I seem to have gone temporarily insane
16:55<yorick>andythenorth: I liked you
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16:57<andythenorth>planetmaker: make the entire window title bar
16:57<bryjen>at least its not the multiplayer screen or some luser could connect in and lower the lists to sea level
16:58<andythenorth>planetmaker: but keeping the tab pane same colour as now
16:58-!-Lod [] has joined #openttd
16:59<Lod>can u help me?
16:59<planetmaker>andythenorth: that's not quite well possible
16:59<Lod>i want to play TTD
16:59<planetmaker>Lod: no. you didn't ask a question
16:59<CIA-6>OpenTTD: belugas * r19802 /trunk/src/table/ (sprites.h town_land.h): -Codechange: Replace some more magic numbers by corresponding constants
16:59<planetmaker>andythenorth: it uses CC. And lighter leaves no pressed state
16:59<andythenorth>planetmaker: it's very easy in photoshop :P
17:00<planetmaker>yes :S
17:00<andythenorth>CC has 8 shades ?
17:00-!-Lod [] has quit []
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17:02<planetmaker>at least 7 is possible ;-)
17:02<planetmaker>and 0 will be an acceptable value, I assume
17:02<planetmaker>for index of the colour array
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17:04<andythenorth>my mock up only uses 5 shades of should use more but I cheated on the highlights/shadows
17:05<planetmaker>andythenorth: the point is, if I want to use a lighter shade for everything, I'd have to define a new widget (with a different colour mode) for everything
17:05<planetmaker>that's feasable - but doesn't sound like a sane idea
17:05<argkde4>and this is better than the old way? :)
17:05-!-devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@] has joined #openttd
17:05<planetmaker>argkde4: yes
17:06<andythenorth>planetmaker: I had a feeling this might be difficult...
17:06<planetmaker>the current way has a certain colour palette handed and defines colours from that depending upon the state of the widget
17:06<planetmaker>quite easy. But if you want to re-work the whole colour scheme. Alas. That's that you have to re-define all colours
17:07<andythenorth>maybe I should start reading the code....but not tonight :)
17:07<andythenorth>and my C++ is...dangerous
17:07<planetmaker>Not much needed ;-)
17:07<andythenorth>is it likely to be more work than say...spending an entire day drawing one ship?
17:07<CIA-6>OpenTTD: belugas * r19803 /trunk/src/table/sprites.h: -Fix(r19802): Compile before commit, or at least double check...
17:09-!-theholyduck [~holyduck@] has joined #openttd
17:09<andythenorth>planetmaker: is this one a mockup or from real code?
17:10<andythenorth>that's very close to what's needed
17:10<andythenorth>instead of pink....try the dark brown used for the shadows in that version?
17:10<andythenorth>(for the panel)
17:10<planetmaker>mockups are boring, if I can play with the real thing ;-)
17:11<planetmaker>hm... even darker?
17:11<andythenorth>that's how I feel about CSS usually
17:12<andythenorth>it will be too dark for my taste, but it will provide the correct layering
17:12<@Belugas>bye bye
17:13<Zuu>hi & bye Belugas
17:13<planetmaker>bye Belugas
17:14<argkde4>will somebody *please* move the corner controls 4 pixels to the right :)
17:14<Zuu>which are the corner controls?
17:15<argkde4>the four buttons.. northeast northwest southeast southwest
17:15<andythenorth>he's right :)
17:15<andythenorth>but layout tweaks can come later...
17:16<argkde4>oh come now, you're using photoshop for this aren't you? :)
17:16<andythenorth>planetmaker: if you can achieve that shading it's a good win
17:16<planetmaker>it could be feasable. I just need to define a new panel
17:17<andythenorth>If you can use string code 94 (or equiv) for the text on selected tab, even better
17:17<andythenorth>94 is nfo code
17:17<andythenorth>dunno about in game
17:17<planetmaker>currently I play with using other colours
17:18<Zuu>andythenorth: If you just want to play around with the widget tree, I don't think you really need much C++ knowledge.
17:19<Zuu>It is quite simple as long as you get to know the nested widgets system.
17:20<Zuu>There is probably some hints at the wiki. I know I've added stuff at the wiki when I've done new things not in the wiki.
17:20<Zuu>night time for me..
17:20-!-Zuu [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:21<planetmaker>good night Zuu
17:21<andythenorth>widget system doesn't look too bad
17:22<Ammler>andythenorth: last screen looks like the button is on a button
17:22<andythenorth>Ammler: you mean the 'generate' button
17:22<andythenorth>you're quite right
17:23<andythenorth>Ammler: does it look so in this mockup?
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17:24<andythenorth>Ammler: can you identify what makes the difference?
17:24<Ammler>because of the boarder maybe
17:24<Ammler>there is a tiny line on left and right boarder
17:25<Ammler>which isn't in the screen, but on the mockup
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17:26<planetmaker>andythenorth: what if we make the non-active tab buttons just darker?
17:27<andythenorth>that's how the game does it by default for this sort of situation no?
17:27<Ammler>well, I think, a boarder is needed anyway
17:27-!-Adambean [] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing]
17:27<planetmaker>andythenorth: no. Same colour, if the same colour scheme is chosen
17:28<planetmaker> <-- like there
17:28<andythenorth>same as no?
17:28<andythenorth>just a different colour?
17:29<andythenorth>all I did was fill the pink to another shade
17:29<Ammler>what if you swap the colors of the tabs
17:29<Ammler>the active part is like the title bar
17:29<planetmaker>andythenorth: I mean to reverse colours of the panel and the tab buttons
17:29<Ammler>the inactive have something else
17:30<planetmaker> <-- basically like that with dark buttons
17:30<Ammler>that looks good
17:31<andythenorth>planetmaker: you could try it....I think you'll have trouble with highlights/shadows
17:31<andythenorth>but perhaps I misunderstand :0
17:32<planetmaker>Like my last screen I linked. But not light buttons but darker ones
17:32<Ammler>"Gameplay Settings" looks like it will issue translation glitches...
17:32<planetmaker>that's moderately easy
17:32<planetmaker>exactly, andythenorth
17:32<andythenorth>it will work
17:32<andythenorth>it's not my preference
17:32<andythenorth>but it works
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17:33<planetmaker>hm, ok
17:33<andythenorth>I prefer this
17:33<Ammler>how will you add a 5th tab?
17:34<ccfreak2k>A little weird, but it looks more like a tab now.
17:34<planetmaker>andythenorth: then make the bottom panel the same colour as the tab
17:34<Ammler>andythenorth: can you add a boarder?
17:34<planetmaker>Ammler: no! ;-)
17:34<andythenorth>planetmaker: one minute then
17:34<planetmaker>Ammler: I just add a 5th tab
17:35<Ammler>also you should try how it looks if the string of the 2nd tab is maybe double the length
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17:36<planetmaker>Ammler: it will just re-size everything
17:36<Ammler>andythenorth: that is wrong, now it looks like generate belongs to map :-)
17:37<planetmaker>Ammler: Nothing wrong with that
17:37<Ammler>not possible to add a boarder line?
17:38<planetmaker>Like what?
17:38<Ammler>like the mockup
17:38<andythenorth>I prefer this it easy to make the window resizable?
17:38<andythenorth>resize handle will destroy the sense that bottom panel is a button
17:38<planetmaker>the window _is_ resizable
17:38<andythenorth>it's not showing a handle?
17:39<planetmaker>but not by the user :-P
17:39<Ammler>andythenorth: also a boarder would do that
17:39<planetmaker>but should be easy to add
17:39<andythenorth>yes, but I can't recall any existing widgets/panels with borders :)
17:39<andythenorth>so the drawing routine probably doesn't exist
17:39<planetmaker>Ammler: I don't see a mockup with border
17:39<andythenorth>drag handles are everywhere :P
17:40<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19804 /trunk/src/table/sprites.h: -Fix (r19802): Compile before commit, or at least triple check :)
17:41<Ammler>maybe it just feels like
17:41<Ammler>also the resize and the 2nd button might influence the feeling
17:41<planetmaker>I guess we can add a bright border around everything
17:42<andythenorth>I am fooling with a border. I think it's a bit of work to get right
17:42<andythenorth>if you're going for incremental improvements....I wouldn't bother yet
17:42<andythenorth>plus, don't optimise the container too much until we have all the content for it (i.e. other 3 tab contents)
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17:51<andythenorth>planetmaker Ammler this is a hacky border. It could be made to work visually, but I don't think it's necessary
17:52<planetmaker> <-- andythenorth Ammler
17:52<andythenorth>photoshop takes identical time to code :P
17:52<planetmaker>different width are possible
17:53<planetmaker>it needs then also an empty line above the tabs IMHO
17:53<andythenorth>It would need to invert shadows / highlights to recess
17:53<planetmaker>and it then amounts to wasting quite some pixels
17:53<andythenorth>and yes, it would need a line
17:53<andythenorth>and it wastes pixels
17:53<andythenorth>or adds nice white space
17:53<andythenorth>depending on your taste :P
17:53<Ammler>planetmaker: wrong shadows
17:54<Ammler>looks like buttons, instead intended
17:54<planetmaker>it's intended as buttons...
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17:54<andythenorth>he means on the tab panel
17:54<Ammler>me ^
17:54<Nite_Owl>Hello all
17:55<andythenorth>he is indeed a Nite_Owl
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17:55*andythenorth ponders sleep
17:55<andythenorth>planetmaker this looks like good progress....
17:55*planetmaker strongly ponders sleep
17:56<andythenorth>good night
17:56<Nite_Owl>Hello andythenorth - actually late afternoon here but I get the point
17:56<Ammler>planetmaker: invert the shadows and it is almost perfect
17:56<Nite_Owl>Later andythenorth
17:56*andythenorth votes for a version with sea in it
17:56<Ammler>of the violet part
17:57<Ammler>or andys, just smaller boarders
17:57<planetmaker> <- that way?
17:57<planetmaker>andythenorth: ineed it didn't look too bad ;-)
17:58*andythenorth does one more mockup before bed
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17:59<Ammler>planetmaker: the violet part should look sinked in
17:59<planetmaker>yeah, possible
18:00<andythenorth>I don't think the borders are essential, but they do help tie it all together
18:00<Ammler>andythenorth: and if they are very small (1-2 pixels)
18:01<andythenorth>they should be the width of other widgets...
18:01*andythenorth looks
18:01<Ammler>I guess, there are none
18:01<ccfreak2k>andythenorth, definitely looks more like tabs now.
18:01<Ammler>else you wouldn't need to try that much :-P
18:01<andythenorth>industry window for example has 3 px border
18:01<ccfreak2k>It's more obvious that the buttons are associated to window changes rather than some other action.
18:02<andythenorth>planetmaker: that + top border, and you have most of what I've drawn :)
18:02<planetmaker>yep. But that's for tomorrow :-)
18:02<planetmaker>Have a good night folks
18:02<andythenorth>good night
18:02<planetmaker>but I agree. It was productive
18:02<Nite_Owl>later planetmaker
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18:03<Terkhen>good night
18:03<Ammler>he good night guys :-)
18:04<andythenorth>good night
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18:05<Nite_Owl>Good Night to whomever is leaving (gets confusing some times)
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18:44<Nite_Owl>so will the new depot names show up in depot related orders
18:50<Nite_Owl>need to feed - later all
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21:43<Eddi|zuHause>why is it, when i have X+10 MB free, and i copy a file of size X to the drive, i get "not enough space" error?
21:43<Eddi|zuHause>(real MB, not drivemaker's MB)
21:48<+glx>10MB is not a lot
21:51<Eddi|zuHause>but i once learned X+10 > X
21:52<+glx>maybe the difference between file size, and file "real" size (the space it really uses on the disk)
21:53<+glx>but 10MB is a lot
21:53<Eddi|zuHause>but shouldn't that be in the order of one cluster size?
21:53<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. like 4kb?
21:54<+glx>unless those 10MB is the sum of all files wasted space
21:54<Eddi|zuHause>why would df report that?
21:54<+glx>dunno I just send ideas as they come :)
21:55<Eddi|zuHause>the most probable cause i can think of is that some space is reserved for root
21:55<Eddi|zuHause>but i forgot where to check that
22:01<Eddi|zuHause>hmm... "Reserved block count: 0"
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22:09<Eddi|zuHause>i don't understand it... when i do "cat /dev/zero >" it stops at 64MB, and when i start other such files, it makes additional 4-10MB each before stopping
22:09<JFBelugas>GO HABS GO!
22:09<Eddi|zuHause>JFBelugas: do people at your place have holiday tomorrow?
22:10*JFBelugas cries
22:10<JFBelugas>why? you do?
22:10<+glx>of course :)
22:11<Eddi|zuHause>it's one of the most important christian holidays... i believe pretty much everywhere in europe...
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22:12<JFBelugas>it is?
22:12<JFBelugas>la sant-glin-glin?
22:13<Eddi|zuHause>of course over here it's also "men's day", meaning a lot of drinking :p
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---Logclosed Thu May 13 00:00:36 2010