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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-05-15

---Logopened Sat May 15 00:00:38 2010
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00:58<beerface>yo is any one here?
00:58<beerface>i had a couple questions about commands for when I make my own server
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01:11<beerface>yo any one here?
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03:29<Wasila>Iw as wondering, on the server
03:29<Wasila>There's no one there
03:29<Wasila>How do you get the pass?
03:29<Wasila>for the game?
03:30<Alberth>Sorry, no idea
03:30<Wasila>Thanks anywya
03:30<Alberth>you tried #openttdcoop ?
03:30*andythenorth wonders.....
03:30<andythenorth>is it bad documentation to write 'this should be fairly self-explanatory'
03:31<Wasila>No, I'll check there
03:31<Wasila>What are you referring to?
03:31<Alberth>is it useful to say that about something that should be fairly self-explanatory?
03:31<andythenorth>that's what I wondered
03:31<Wasila>Where exactly do you want to say it
03:31<andythenorth>at the top of the whole page?
03:31*andythenorth grumbles
03:32<andythenorth>now I have to think harder
03:32<Alberth>just describe what you get, and leave it with that, I'd say
03:32<Alberth>ie don't explain how to use it.
03:33<Wasila>Wait, but isn't there already an explanation?
03:33<planetmaker>good morning
03:33<Wasila>Why put it's fairly self explanatory>
03:33<Alberth>if people have trouble, the page will get adapted :)
03:33<Alberth>moin pm
03:34<planetmaker>hm... andythenorth if it doesn't need explanaition, don't say so. It's bad style
03:34<planetmaker>there might be cases where it does ;-)
03:36<planetmaker>Alberth: how can I tell to re-draw not only the active widget (when handled in OnClick) but to SetDirty the whole window as other widgets get disabled?
03:37<Alberth>w->SetDirty() afaik
03:37<planetmaker>this->SetDirty() only acts on the current widget, if I get it right...
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03:37<Alberth>depends on the class of 'this' :)
03:37<andythenorth>fricking wiki formatting
03:38<planetmaker>Well... I'm thinking of, say, a push button which is clicked
03:38<planetmaker>if done so, other similar ones within the same frame should get de-activated.
03:38<andythenorth>planetmaker: I've added some stuff to alignment tool
03:38<andythenorth>make sense?
03:39<andythenorth>I might remake the screenie
03:40<Alberth>Window::SetDirty() marks the whole window as in need to get redrawn. Add that call somewhere in the sequence of actions of OnClick()
03:40<planetmaker>ah... that was what I was looking for, I guess :-)
03:40<planetmaker>andythenorth: I guess so :-)
03:41<Alberth>Alternatively, you can mark each widget individually as needing to be redrawn ( Window::SetWidgetDirty(wid_idx) )
03:42*andythenorth has a documentation debt and feels better for repaying it slightly
03:42<planetmaker>Might make more sense... Not everything needs re-drawing
03:42<andythenorth>is documentation debt like technical debt?
03:43<andythenorth>apparently documentation debt is a facet of technical debt, so 'yes'
03:43<Alberth>they are, in the sense that both makes no sense to me :)
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04:01<andythenorth>planetmaker: hope this is ok.....
04:01<planetmaker>andythenorth: looking at what you said wrt widgets in the game creation dialogue:
04:02<planetmaker>one of smoothness or terrain type could go IMHO. They sound at least to do the same - although they don't.
04:04<planetmaker>sure it is, andythenorth
04:04<planetmaker>I only added a stub back then in order to have it documented at all :-)
04:05<planetmaker>if you're at it, you could look up the revision it was introduced ;-)
04:05<planetmaker>the text still reads OpenTTD r19xxx and following...
04:07<andythenorth>it was incremental, but r19723 seems to be useful enough
04:07<andythenorth>I've modified the TTDP wiki
04:08<planetmaker>good to link it in the newgrf wiki, too. yeah
04:08<andythenorth>not sure where it should be linked from in the OTTD wiki though :o
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04:08<planetmaker>nobody get me wrong please, but sometimes I wonder whether it would be helpful to move the newgrf wiki to the dev section of the OpenTTD wiki...
04:09<planetmaker>but it's a huge taske without immediate gain :S
04:09<andythenorth>I'd have to adjust my brain to get used to that idea :o
04:09<andythenorth>I can type the current url without thinking :P
04:09<andythenorth>one wiki is much the same as another wiki to me :)
04:09<planetmaker>haha :-)
04:10<planetmaker>well. The point is the accessibility
04:10<planetmaker>Ever tried to add a topic section there?
04:11<planetmaker>maybe you can, but I doubt it
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04:12<planetmaker>also it'd be easier to only learn / use one wiki style
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04:13<andythenorth>think I'm done with that for more ticket closed.... (in my mind)
04:13<Alberth>planetmaker: there are too many wiki implementation to ever reach that goal
04:14<planetmaker>but there's two now withing OpenTTD :-)
04:14<planetmaker>gah. *within
04:14<planetmaker>and both work quite differently
04:15<planetmaker>but as said, my main concern is not the style, but the possibility to edit it
04:15<planetmaker>not myself personally. Generally
04:16<planetmaker>but then it might be good to have some kind of barrier in front of the specification documentation of newgrfs
04:16*andythenorth ponders the natural and timely death of certain GUI options
04:16<Alberth>In my view, the biggest problem with NewGRF specs is that there is no textual source, just HTML formatted code. Impossible to maintain outside the wiki
04:17<andythenorth>something like doxygen would be much better....
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04:17<planetmaker>Alberth: is it really a problem?
04:17<Alberth>Or to track changes
04:17<OwenS>andythenorth: Doxygen is really not suited for the NewGRF specs
04:17<planetmaker>A wiki has also a changelog. But agreed, not the same kind one would expect of a technical document
04:18<planetmaker>Hm... the technical docs I frequently have to deal with have a changelog page in front
04:18<Alberth>OwenS: no-one said Doxygen, but eg restructured text would be an improvement in my opinion
04:18<planetmaker>but they are word format :-P
04:18<OwenS>planetmaker: I regularly deal with PDFs which have it at the back
04:18<planetmaker>same thing, yes
04:18<OwenS>(Chip datasheets)
04:19<planetmaker>Having it all in one document would be a BIG document, Alberth
04:19<planetmaker>and the question is whether having it separate, documentation and specs, is really worth it.
04:19<OwenS>planetmaker: Believe me, there are some really huge technical docs
04:20<Alberth>andythenorth: there is no tracking of which options are used and which are not. That makes that question awkward at best.
04:20<planetmaker>Though... much of it is explanation, not only documentation
04:20<Alberth>planetmaker: You can split the file, I'd expect
04:20<planetmaker>OwenS: yes, I know. I get mine from ESA. And they know how to make lengthy ones
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04:21*andythenorth learnt how to use the zope web framework from reading python docstrings....
04:21<planetmaker>Two per A4 file
04:21<planetmaker>manual file that is
04:21<planetmaker>and that's only a tiny sub-sub-project
04:21<OwenS>planetmaker: Doubt it compares to the Intel Architecture Reference Manual. 6500 pages (admittedly 5 volumes/5 PDFs)
04:21<andythenorth>shame the code for newgrf implementation in the game can't be self-documenting :P
04:21<planetmaker>OwenS: I bet they do
04:22<OwenS>planetmaker: Presumably they have page counts?
04:22<planetmaker>of course.
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04:22<planetmaker>If I add the docs of the single sub-sub projects together I'm in that range, too
04:22<Alberth>andythenorth: the binary data of a compiled program is also not self-documenting, so why would newgrf be different?
04:23<planetmaker>I've several files on my shelf relating to that project :-)
04:23<OwenS>(And of course you also need AMD's equivilant. Another 6000 pages)
04:23<andythenorth>Alberth: I suspect it's not possible :|
04:23<Alberth>andythenorth: literate programming perhaps :p
04:23<andythenorth>However between the docstrings and reading the python, I don't need any further docs for this
04:24<planetmaker>OwenS: any kilogramm launched into space produces roughly 1000 times more weight in printed documentation ;-)
04:24<OwenS>planetmaker: rofl
04:24<planetmaker>or put differently: every kilogramm produces one meter of files
04:24<OwenS>Think that somewhere ESA have a library dedicated to the ISS? :P
04:25<planetmaker>which is not out of scale at all
04:25<Alberth>andythenorth: yep, docstrings are very powerful. Of course the language also helps
04:25<andythenorth>industries with their own siding....possible in future? Or just a redundant idea?
04:26<planetmaker>andythenorth: it doesn't make sense conceptually IMHO
04:26<planetmaker>it's redundant as you can build your own station
04:26<andythenorth>how would it deal with railtypes for example
04:26<planetmaker>and things like that ^
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04:26<andythenorth>bad idea
04:26<Yexo>it would also be limited to a single company
04:27<planetmaker>Yexo: not really. Like the oil rig airport
04:27<planetmaker>you can abuse it to share cargo with other companies
04:27<OwenS>planetmaker: No, think: One company would attach tracks to it, others have to use own station
04:27<Yexo>it works for an airport because multiple companies can use that one airport, that isn't possible with an industry railstation because the track in front of it is owned by one of them
04:28<planetmaker>or attache tracks to the other side :-)
04:28<Yexo>ok, 2 companies :)
04:28<planetmaker>but of course it's not a nice solution
04:28<OwenS>planetmaker: Then you cause all sorts of hell. My knowledge of the code makes me say that would cause the signal engine to crash
04:28<Yexo>OwenS: no, it just causes your trains to crash
04:28<planetmaker>OwenS: it needs a bit of work. IS2 is what it needs then ;-)
04:29<andythenorth>it's a bad idea
04:29<planetmaker>we agreed upon that, yes ;-)
04:29<OwenS>Yexo: The signal engine only permits one company's signals in the signal buffer. Assertion failure. crash.
04:29<andythenorth>planetmaker: let's take some GUI options away....
04:29<OwenS>IS2 obviously fixes this
04:29<andythenorth>why can't the generator type be an advanced setting?
04:29<planetmaker>andythenorth: I offered you one ;-)
04:30<planetmaker>now you want again more? :-P
04:30<andythenorth>yes but you offered one that is needed
04:30<Terkhen>good morning
04:30<planetmaker>smoothness and hillyness?
04:30<andythenorth>hi hi
04:30<planetmaker>hello Terkhen
04:30<andythenorth>smoothness affects coasts and noise
04:31<andythenorth>hillyness affects map height
04:31<planetmaker>see ;-)
04:31<andythenorth>v. different :P
04:31<planetmaker>as are the others
04:31*andythenorth makes an unfounded assertion....
04:31<andythenorth>surely *everyone* uses Terragenesis?
04:31<andythenorth>or a heightmap
04:32<planetmaker>a wrong assertion, andythenorth :-)
04:32*andythenorth wonders about additional land generators as add-ons
04:32<planetmaker>I know quite some people who use the original from time to time
04:32<Rubidium>very wrong assumption
04:32*andythenorth wonders about some secondary options, grouped together, using the brown buttons, not yellow
04:33<planetmaker>andythenorth: and then have 10 brown buttons?
04:33<Yexo>andythenorth: the original map generator was broken for over a month before 1.0.0- (beta1 or RC1), but after the release a bug report came in within a few days
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04:33*andythenorth considers removing things as a way of testing who uses what
04:34<andythenorth>bug reports == evidence
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04:34<planetmaker>bad bad style, andythenorth :-)
04:34<andythenorth>'random' gui....
04:34<andythenorth>google do it
04:34<andythenorth>well....A/B testing not exactly random
04:34<planetmaker>just add a button "help improve usability and log user behaviour" ;-)
04:35<andythenorth>ok, so no-one seems to want to be eliminating map options.
04:36<andythenorth>and I can't be having another day of arguing GUI points :D
04:36<andythenorth>maybe we have to improve what we've got
04:36<planetmaker>first we need to improve what we've got
04:37<andythenorth>so ignore the layout....the 'flow' of the map screen needs a bit of work
04:37<andythenorth>what's the first task? Choose heightmap / generator?
04:37<planetmaker>I'm adding that
04:38<planetmaker>heightmap is first... actually it could probably be unified with map generator, true
04:38<planetmaker>which is not a bad choice...
04:38<planetmaker>darn. More work :-)
04:39<andythenorth>so could 'heightmap' be an option on the generator dropdown?
04:39<andythenorth>or does that mean extending widgets with complicated new handlers?
04:39*andythenorth wonders how selected menu option is handled anyway
04:41<Alberth>virtual void OnDropdownSelect(int widget, int index)
04:44<planetmaker>andythenorth: Heightmap can be a choice
04:44<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r19823 /trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp: -Fix: Ensure that both texts of the newgrf gui download button fit.
04:45*andythenorth tries to understand widget code
04:45<andythenorth>so select is an event that is fired?
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04:45<planetmaker>yes and no
04:45<Alberth>opening a drop down creates a new window
04:46*andythenorth thinks what the question actually is
04:46<Alberth>clicking in that dropdown window gets forwarded to the original creator of the dropdown with the OnDropdownSelect()
04:47<planetmaker>hm... how do I know whether a file gets chosen or the saveload dialogue is closed without choice made?
04:47<planetmaker>can I get feedback from that somehow?
04:48<Alberth>the saveload dialogue should do something with a click at a file, I guess
04:49<planetmaker>which I'm trying to understand, but so far it went without conclusion :-)
04:50<Alberth>I didn't look into inter-window communication very much, so I know less than you in this case :)
04:51<andythenorth>current newgrf gui must have an example of it?
04:51<Alberth>of what
04:51<andythenorth>handling a file being chosen or close without choice?
04:51<andythenorth>or perhaps not
04:52<Alberth>it has a list of available grfs in _all_grfs
04:52<Alberth>it also has a list of required grfs
04:52<Alberth>that's it, files are not actually accessed in the gui
04:53<Alberth>ie you select from a list of data, and/or shuffle available grfs to used/required grfs
04:56*andythenorth wonders if planetmaker's real code will again take same time as photoshop
04:56<Alberth>the add-newgrf gui uses InvalidateWindowData(WC_GAME_OPTIONS, 0, 2); to notify its parent of a change
04:59<planetmaker>andythenorth: that part will take here considerably longer ;-)
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05:13<andythenorth>it's not intended to be polished, more like thinking in pictures...
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05:14<planetmaker>without the separator line, yes
05:14<andythenorth>well that's changeable
05:14<planetmaker>the latter is more trouble than it's worth
05:15<planetmaker>and you don't make map size in the first line of the options which I find odd. But leave snow line height alone, right-aligned in the first of those following the map choice
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05:15<andythenorth>I haven't started on the stuff below the separator :)
05:16<andythenorth>the two lines above the separator could be consolidated to one line, but the heightmap name would be truncated.....and there could be significant issues with translation space
05:16<andythenorth>(i.e. room for translated strings)
05:16<planetmaker>they should stay two lines
05:16<planetmaker>for the very reasons you mention
05:16<andythenorth>so separators are trouble?
05:17<planetmaker>except you possibly define it as a void button or so
05:18<andythenorth>what about plain old whitespace?
05:18<planetmaker>well. Maybe it's easy. I didn't dwell on it so far
05:19<planetmaker>oh, it should not touch the tab's borders
05:19<planetmaker>so the tab stays as one
05:19<planetmaker>with some space to the border
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05:19<planetmaker>but... yeah. "Just another" horizontal widget with three sub-widgets might work
05:20<Alberth>two WWT_INSET panels underneath each other?
05:20<planetmaker>I'd try a very tiny inset one for that. Or a recessed button
05:21<andythenorth>...the size of a height map....we show that because it's a "recommended size"?
05:21<planetmaker>for now the unwanted mode change from generate to heightmap when the heightmap selction is actually canceled is a bigger concern, though ;-)
05:22<andythenorth>I would say "heightmap size" but that doesn't contain the implication that it can be changed
05:22<planetmaker>it's the size of the bitmap
05:22<andythenorth>planetmaker: you solve the big problems....I'll draw some pixels :P
05:22<planetmaker>map size defines the map size then still
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05:25<moblin_>hello, does openttd have a benchmark/fps feature?
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05:27<planetmaker>impatiant little brag
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05:30<planetmaker>andythenorth: I pushed a small update which fixes the visibility of some widgets
05:31*andythenorth pulls
05:31<planetmaker>layout didn't change, though
05:32<planetmaker>and enjoy 'make run' :-P
05:32<andythenorth>thinking that heightmap size can go after the name. it shouldn't need a label
05:33<Yexo>andythenorth: if I had a heightmap I wouldn't go look in that dropdown to load it
05:34<andythenorth>where would you look?
05:34<Yexo>a seperate button
05:34<Yexo>either there or in the main menu
05:34<andythenorth>and if the separate button doesn't exist, where would you look?
05:34<planetmaker>Yexo: the main menu should get rid of all those different unnecessary buttons...
05:35<Yexo>planetmaker: i agree
05:35<planetmaker>Maybe it should be called "Map source" instead of "Create map using"
05:35<planetmaker>or "Map origin"?
05:35<andythenorth>could be
05:35<Yexo>andythenorth: if there were 3 radio buttons (original/terragenesis/heightmap) then it would be obvious
05:35<planetmaker>urgs. Radio buttons
05:35<andythenorth>radio buttons aren't a convention in Openttd though...
05:35<andythenorth>we have to live with dropdowns....
05:35<Yexo>I'm not saying there should be, but in that case it's obvious that you can load a heightmap that way
05:36<planetmaker>you've got a point...
05:36*andythenorth agrees with the point
05:36<andythenorth>"Map Source"?
05:37<Weeknie>Why aren't there any radio buttons in openTTD anyway, is that impossible with C++ or?
05:37<Yexo>Label: "Heightmap:", with dropdown choices "Generate with original generator" / "Generate with TerraGenesis" / "Load custom heightmap" ?
05:37<Yexo>those texts are probably too long :(
05:37<andythenorth>hey the concept could work though
05:38<andythenorth>if we work on the basis that they are all heightmaps
05:38<planetmaker>Yexo: andythenorth it could simply be made using three normal buttons
05:38<planetmaker>and when one of those is clicked the other two become the opposite state
05:38<planetmaker>it's not exactly radio, but it's similar
05:38<andythenorth>Heightmap: original generator | terragenesis | load custom heightmap
05:39<andythenorth>more fricking buttons :)
05:39<planetmaker>Yeah... then the current solution works just as well
05:39<andythenorth>we're not especially short of space here
05:40<andythenorth>I like Yexo's idea of "they're all heightmaps"
05:40<Yexo><andythenorth> Heightmap: original generator | terragenesis | load custom heightmap <- that is a good suggestion
05:40<andythenorth>might baffle existing players, but they'll learn
05:40<andythenorth>we'll get bug reports for a few months, then they'll figure it out
05:40<andythenorth>Maybe it doesn't need a label? The climates aren't labelled....
05:41<andythenorth>just three buttons
05:41<andythenorth>Original generator | Terragenesis | Load custom heightmap
05:41<andythenorth>it's not pretty but it might be obvious
05:41<Yexo>if you make it buttons instead of a dropdown you don't need a label
05:41<planetmaker> <-- current status. Should I add that todo somewhere?
05:41<planetmaker>so we keep track of the good ideas?
05:41<andythenorth>they would need some kind of grouping graphically
05:42<andythenorth>planetmaker: ok
05:42<planetmaker>andythenorth: just horizontally next to eachother. In the top
05:42<andythenorth>with sufficient white space below....
05:42<planetmaker>and the heightmap name goes in the line below, if selected
05:42<andythenorth>I'll draw...
05:42<planetmaker>andythenorth: you could add some of those to a place which will be remembered. Maybe to the openttd-gui project.
05:43<planetmaker>at least when we agreed upon that it was a good proposal :-P
05:43<andythenorth>I'll commit some later
05:43<planetmaker>just add them as files or documents there
05:43<planetmaker>or as an issue
05:43<planetmaker>better issue
05:49<Ammler>andythenorth: planetmaker, can't you put the tabs buttons one level down?
05:51<Ammler> <--"Gameplay Settings" button is on the main level, it should be on the other tab level
05:51<Ammler>dunno, if that is possible
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05:53<planetmaker>I still don't get what you mean, Ammler
05:53<planetmaker>you should start to make mockups to explain your words ;-)
05:53<Ammler>[11:41] <planetmaker> <-- current status. Should I add that todo somewhere? <-- isn't tracker for that?
05:54<planetmaker>I assume, yes
05:54<Ammler>oh, well, if it needs explaination, I might be wrong... :-)
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05:56<andythenorth>Ammler: do you mean the z-plane / layer depth?
05:57<Ammler>yes, maybe
05:57<Ammler>the boarder and the button should be one level
05:57<Ammler>so the tabs look like they are "in" the boarder on the tab level
06:00<Ammler>yep, that, doesn't that look better?
06:00<andythenorth>it does sit easier on the eye yes
06:01<+tokai>the registers looks a bit strange; I guess you need to make a custom widget for that. :)
06:01<planetmaker>maybe they need some padding
06:02<planetmaker>what do you mean with "register", tokai ?
06:02<planetmaker>the tab headers?
06:02*andythenorth explores genworld_gui.cpp
06:02<+tokai>planetmaker: yeah.
06:02<planetmaker>andythenorth: I guess the padding could be set using SetPIP(..)
06:03*andythenorth takes a crash course in gui code
06:03<planetmaker>but I didn't quite figure out how that works
06:03<andythenorth>expect crashes :P
06:03<+tokai>There is also a style randomness in that window.
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06:03<andythenorth>SetPIP is an optional parameter?
06:04<Weeknie>Andythenorth and Planetmaker, you are somewhere around GMT aren't you?
06:04<+tokai>most labels don't use title capitalization (Map *s*ize, etc.), while "Random *S*eed" does it properly. Same for window title.
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06:04<andythenorth>yep the Title Case is wrong in quite a lot of that dialog
06:05<andythenorth>I'm fixing it in the mockups as I go
06:05<andythenorth>Weeknie: yes
06:05<Weeknie>Sorry for interrupting, go on with w/e you're doing:P
06:05<+tokai>andythenorth: well.. the title case is correct; that it's missing here and here isn't :)
06:05<andythenorth>yes indeed
06:06<+tokai>ok, just made sure we fix in correct direction :)
06:08<Eddi|zuHause><Weeknie> Andythenorth and Planetmaker, you are somewhere around GMT aren't you? <- that's likely true for 90% of the people here
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06:08<andythenorth>planetmaker: is a 'None' button with blue label expected :P
06:08<andythenorth>or did I just cause that?
06:09<Weeknie>Eddi|zuHause, I guess you're right yeah, it's quite busy here
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>despite the "business", this game is extremely europe-centric
06:11<Mazur>Whereas the other 99.9999% of games are extremely US-centric.
06:14<Mazur>Well, Football Managers games aren't, but that's because most Merkins don't get the game.
06:17<planetmaker>andythenorth: that's not a button but a text.... which should show none, if no heightmap is selected
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06:18<planetmaker>actually... yes, the button has label 'none'
06:18<planetmaker>which is not quite as it should be ;-)
06:18<planetmaker>hi Hyronymus
06:18<Hyronymus>question time guys
06:18<Weeknie>hi Hyronymus
06:18<Hyronymus>I'm trying to run grfwizard in w7
06:18<Hyronymus>it yields a runtime 53 error
06:18<Hyronymus>but not the name of the missing file
06:19<Mazur>Blame Gates.
06:19<Hyronymus>that's the easy solution that still leaves me with the problem ;)
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06:20<yorick>Hyronymus: don't use w7
06:21<PeterT>yes, that's the ONLY solution!
06:21<planetmaker>I guess not
06:22<Hyronymus>running it as xp sp3 doesn't do much either
06:22<Weeknie>Hyronymus, don't worry, you're not the only one with windows 7, you're not alone
06:22<Weeknie>But I can't help you with your problem:P
06:22<Hyronymus>that's OK
06:22<Hyronymus>thinking about a topic dig :P
06:22<PeterT>have you searched for the runtime error on google, Hyronymus?
06:22<Hyronymus>yes, I have PeterT
06:22<PeterT>what did it come up with?
06:22<Hyronymus>and it should yield a filename
06:23<Hyronymus>which, if you read carefully, I said it doesn't
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06:46<Weeknie>Hyronymus, when did you get that error again?
06:47<Hyronymus>when trying to decode a grf file with GRFwizard
06:47<Weeknie>I'm on a windows 7 machine, perhaps I could try to compile it myself, see if the same thing happens here
06:47<Hyronymus>I start to believe it has something to do with long directory names
06:47<Hyronymus>grfcodec complains too namely
06:47<Hyronymus>it ends after C:\Program
06:48<Ammler>or it has issues with spaces in path
06:48<Weeknie>I think that's the problem yeah
06:48<Hyronymus>can't find out the DOS name for the dir
06:48<Weeknie>After program comes a space
06:48<planetmaker>spaces in the path can be bad
06:48<Hyronymus>I thought there was an easy way to find out the DOS name of a ptth
06:49<Weeknie>erm well
06:49<Mazur>That's wjhat they _want_ you to believe.
06:49<Weeknie>The dos name for program files is PROGRA~1
06:49<Weeknie>Do you have any other folders in that path with spaces in em?
06:50<Weeknie>Type out the complete path please
06:50<Weeknie>DOS names are quite easy:P
06:50<Hyronymus>but on w7 you have program files and program files (x86)
06:50<Weeknie>You're right
06:50<Weeknie>Which one is it?
06:50<Hyronymus>I know :P
06:51<Hyronymus>the latter, program files (x86)
06:51<Weeknie>I think the x86 is ~2 instead of ~1
06:51<Weeknie>Lemme test something here
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06:51<Weeknie>PROGRA~1 refers to program files
06:52<Hyronymus>hmm, can't paste an address into the location dir in grfwizard
06:52<Weeknie>And PROGRA~2 to program files x86
06:52<Alberth>You type the path in a command window? then perhaps add " around the path?
06:52<Ammler>Hyronymus: why not move the grf to somwhere without spaces?
06:52<Hyronymus>lol @ Ammler
06:52<Hyronymus>I'll try
06:52<Weeknie>Just move it to your root, aka straigt in C
06:53<Weeknie>It ought to be able to find it there:P
06:53<Weeknie>Else it's just fucked
06:53<Mazur>Redmonded, you mean.
06:53<Hyronymus>still the same error
06:53<Hyronymus>moved it to user/documents/openttd
06:53<Weeknie>Mazur, you're talng to me?:P
06:54<Weeknie>Hyronymus, just move it to your C
06:54<Weeknie>Mazur, sorry in that case, redmonded it is :P
06:54<Mazur>A.k.a. the Hellmouth, the Hell of Gates.
06:54<Weeknie>Never knew that
06:55<Mazur>Main offices of M$.
06:55<Hyronymus>moved it to C
06:55<Hyronymus>no luck
06:55<Hyronymus>oh well
06:55<Hyronymus>let's try grfcodec in cmd
06:55<Weeknie>mazur, I see
06:56<Weeknie>I just discovered there's a ProgramData map in my C
06:56<Weeknie>Another one of them hidden folders
06:57<Hyronymus>grfcodec works from cmd
06:57<andythenorth>Alberth: where is the source that would let me figure out setpip?
06:58<Alberth>SetPIP Set additional pre/inter/post child widget space. <-- this is enough?
06:59<Alberth>otherwise, right here :)
06:59<planetmaker>yes :-)
06:59<planetmaker>it determins widget separation, right
06:59<planetmaker>how does that relate to SetPadding(top, right, bottom, left)?
07:00<andythenorth>is there some kind of box model akin to dom rendering
07:00<Alberth>padding is extra space around the widget where you add it to.
07:00<Alberth>internally, pip is moved to padding
07:01<Alberth>(padding of the childs, that is)
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07:04<Alberth>andythenorth: may be of use, the basic idea is there, although that document is from before the implementation started
07:11<Hyronymus>planetmaker: what is needed to add PBI support to the Dutch Trainset?
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07:18<andythenorth>babies are incompatible with widget cide
07:18<andythenorth>code /s
07:18<andythenorth>wrong kind of child element I guess :P
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07:23<Alberth>with widgets, the childs decide the size&fill capacities of the parent, so in some respects it is the reverse :)
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07:42<Hyronymus>did anyone ever make a palette for with the appropriate decoded colours
07:43<Ammler>isn't Purno a user?
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08:15<Weeknie>Is visualSVN any good?
08:16<Weeknie>Hmm, nvm
08:16<planetmaker><Hyronymus> planetmaker: what is needed to add PBI support to the Dutch Trainset? <-- I don't know what the DutchSet already has. It should be sufficient to add cargo class support.
08:16<planetmaker>Which I assume it already has.
08:16<planetmaker>One just might want to go through the cargos and see whether it works for all cargos and no nasty surprises are there
08:17<planetmaker>possibly modifying the cargo translation table
08:17<andythenorth>planetmaker....a long time ago I had the idea to increase the size of many gui widgets from 12px to 16px.....this looks much easier than it was at the time. I wonder if it's generally desirable though?
08:17<planetmaker>of course one could go and add dedicated sprites for some cargos
08:17<planetmaker>andythenorth, not generally
08:17<andythenorth>btw PBI seemed to have incomplete class support when I looked
08:18<planetmaker>Doing that... is another topic. It would mean to add zoom-levels or GUI-size choice somewhere. And do it properly
08:18<andythenorth>planetmaker: my thinking was to increase hit target sizes. I miss buttons a lot
08:18<planetmaker>it does need much graphical work
08:18<andythenorth>and my next question would have been....should that be some kind of skin / theme choice?
08:18<planetmaker>it would need re-doing ~150 sprites in several sizes
08:18<Hyronymus>planetmaker: I think additional graphics will be nice
08:18<planetmaker>andythenorth, it could be newgrf even
08:18<Hyronymus>but I would be thrilled already if I could just load PBI stuff
08:19<planetmaker>a newgrf which just changes the sprites. hm... but then it doesn't change button size.
08:19<andythenorth>many buttons don't appear to use sprites (text only)
08:19<planetmaker>So, no, it needs support from both ends. Graphics and code
08:19<planetmaker>But that's totally out of scope of what we do now
08:20<planetmaker>andythenorth, if you change your text size, it will grow accordingly.
08:20<andythenorth>I was thinking of a different (personal) project, rather than as part of this project
08:20<planetmaker>give it a try
08:20<planetmaker>openttd.cfg has your default text sizes
08:20<andythenorth>that's in the config text file?
08:20<andythenorth>I tried that sort of works
08:20<Alberth>huh, buttons resize according to their contents
08:20<planetmaker>andythenorth, if that's changed, then graphics can be re-scaled using a newgrf
08:20<andythenorth>to me it just looks like changing the setpip values around text
08:21<Alberth>bigger sprite -> bigger buttons
08:21<planetmaker>so... basically everything's there
08:21<planetmaker>Alberth, but not for text buttons ;-)
08:21*andythenorth experiments
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08:30*andythenorth tee hees at some awesome accidents with the widget code
08:31<andythenorth>make run is rather handy
08:33<andythenorth>Alberth: have you written a lot HTML 4 / CSS?
08:33<Alberth>none at all
08:34<andythenorth>the tree / DOM structure must be a common pattern
08:34<andythenorth>widgets look pretty similar to html DOM
08:34<Alberth>I studied CS, compiler construction. Lots of trees there :)
08:35<andythenorth>padding is applied to the outside of a widget?
08:35<Alberth>I borrowed the boxes from TeX and Tcl/Tk
08:35<andythenorth>so if the parent has no background colour background
08:35<Alberth>yes, padding is space around the widget
08:35<andythenorth>that's the equivalent of css 'margin' property then
08:35<andythenorth>is there a widget property for padding inside the widget?
08:35<andythenorth>or no?
08:36<Alberth>PIP is one form
08:36<Alberth>otherwise, add a widget inside
08:36<OwenS>andythenorth: In CSS, padding is inside, margin is outside
08:36<andythenorth>yes thanks....I've only been writing it for 10 years :P
08:36<Alberth>and there are WWT_EMPTY and NWID_SPACER widgets, which are invisible
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08:37<Weeknie>And I'm back
08:37<Alberth>why would you need space inside a widget, if you can also add it to its childs?
08:37<andythenorth>excitingly you have 'COLOUR' rather than 'COLOR'
08:38<andythenorth>Alberth: let me try something
08:38*Alberth lets andythenorth try something
08:41<andythenorth>I thought setting COLOUR_GREY on the parent might fix that
08:42<planetmaker>andythenorth, you need a bigger panel or inset
08:42<Alberth>no, you need to add a WWT_PANEL background
08:42<Alberth>there are probably quite a few such spots
08:42<andythenorth>as a widget, in between NWID_HORIZONTAL and the group?
08:43<andythenorth>and closed by EndContainer(),
08:43*andythenorth tries
08:43<planetmaker>andythenorth, the easiest solution would probably be SetMinimalSize(1, ysize)
08:44<andythenorth>ha my attempt produced bad results :)
08:45<andythenorth>that worked, but is wrong
08:45*andythenorth bangs head
08:46<Alberth>around the horizontal container
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08:47<Alberth>hello glx
08:48<Alberth>planetmaker, andythenorth: simplest solution is to increase the padding with the WD_* constants in widget_type.h :)
08:48<Alberth>those are spacings between border and contents of every widget type
08:49<andythenorth>I'll give it a go
08:49<planetmaker>oh, I thought padding changed the spacing and didn't add to the widget size
08:49<planetmaker>good to know :-)
08:52<andythenorth>Alberth: I can't find the constants in widget_type.h sorry :(
08:53<Alberth>oh, src/window_gui.h apparently
08:58*andythenorth enjoys the luxury of 16px-wide scrollbars :D
08:59<andythenorth>but seriously, am I going to have to patch that every time?
08:59<Weeknie>Lol, gratz andy:P
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09:03<planetmaker>andythenorth, you could probably just modify the scrollbar widget
09:03<planetmaker>or alike
09:06<andythenorth>mmmm...bigger title bars :)
09:11<andythenorth>Alberth: all the widget spacings are defines yes? So there's no way to change them when the game is running? (they are fixed at compile time?)
09:11<Alberth>not without changing the source
09:12<andythenorth>and changing the default widget sizes after 16 years is going to be....controversial :P
09:12<Alberth>euhm, if you refer to the WD_* constants, at least
09:13*andythenorth files that under 'projects for another day'
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09:13<Alberth>in 1.0, all widget sizes get decided based on their contents, so there is no real 'default widget size' any more.
09:14<Alberth>ie if you change the font, or use different sprites, the widgets will change
09:14<andythenorth>but there are default heights and widths for some elements such as scrollbars
09:14<andythenorth>which have no contents...
09:15<andythenorth>...but another time :)
09:15<andythenorth>there is enough work in progress unshipped :o
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09:15<Alberth>I don't know whether a scrollbar size gets computed based on the arrow sprite size. It should be, though
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09:16<Alberth>You see a lot of users complain for openttd display being too small. However, gui change is just a small part of that. We'd need the extra zoom thingie to be finished for that, I think.
09:17<planetmaker>I agree with that statement
09:17<OwenS>Alberth: I just wish the default font was readable
09:18<Alberth>OwenS: select a bigger font
09:18<OwenS>Alberth: I have :p
09:18<planetmaker>Zephyris proposed quite a decent zoom algorithm which would - as it looks - provide even acceptable results with unchanged sprites
09:18<OwenS>planetmaker: hq2x/hq4x?
09:18<planetmaker>I don't recall
09:18<planetmaker>I just know it's somewhere in the zoomlevels thread
09:19<planetmaker>most probable that is ;-)
09:19<OwenS>hq*x does a phenomenal job
09:19-!-tokai [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:19<OwenS>(On hand drawn artwork anyway)
09:19<planetmaker>yeah, looks like
09:19<planetmaker>I think that was it
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09:20<planetmaker>And with that implemented as additional zoom levels, the 32bpp zoom level thing could continue much better
09:20<planetmaker>And it would still be playable nicely with just 8bpp.
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09:20<planetmaker>But then there needs to be a way to get these zoom levels exposed to newgrf, too
09:20<OwenS>At 4x zoom things only look "acceptable" instead of "great", but its still a phenomenal job
09:20<planetmaker>People will want that
09:21<__ln__>28 °C \o_
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09:26*andythenorth goes loopy in a world of widget nesting
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09:28<andythenorth>planetmaker: the tabs in the game gen gui....does each tab have to define the button widgets for all tabs (if that makes sense)?
09:28<planetmaker>each tab does currently, yes
09:28<andythenorth>ok, that helps
09:29<planetmaker>or you need to define a new button widget without border or so. And change the WWT_TAB widget, too
09:29<andythenorth>I have accomplished changing the tab padding to Ammler's suggestion
09:29<andythenorth>it's a nano-scale victory
09:29<planetmaker>yes, I have that, too :-P
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09:29<planetmaker>Once I knew about padding it was nice :-)
09:29<andythenorth>committed anything recently?
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09:30<planetmaker>I don't think I commited that
09:30<planetmaker>just use hg pull and you'll be up to date :-)
09:32<andythenorth>no changes :|
09:33<andythenorth>Map edges...there has to be a better way....
09:34*andythenorth wonders....does anyone *ever* write down the random seed to use again?
09:34<Alberth>you can query it in the console
09:34<Alberth>no idea how, though
09:34<andythenorth>so I'm wondering if the seed needs to be shown / quite so prominent....
09:35<Alberth> only 48KB :)
09:35<planetmaker>does it have a png?
09:37<andythenorth>so for what reasons would I click 'randomise'?
09:38<Alberth>The 'check online content' text is too long :(
09:39<OwenS>Alberth: I'd add a bit of padding around the widgets inside the groups (Active newgrf files/inactive newgrf files). At present, it doesn't look like theres a border; additionally, active (because of the listbox's proximity) looks raised
09:40<andythenorth>Alberth: I discussed with frosch....we thought 'Get Add-Ons' would be sufficient
09:40<andythenorth>however that was in a slightly different context
09:42<Alberth>there are actually 2 possible texts there, Find missing content online and Check Online Content
09:42<Alberth>see r19823 :)
09:44<andythenorth>when in doubt, say less....
09:44<Ammler>Alberth: if someone configures as game with newgrfs, you use at least 10 different newgrfs
09:46<Alberth>Adding another such column is not going to fit
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09:49<Alberth>I see no way to improve it. You can enlarge the window, perhaps it should be bigger by default even
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09:50<Alberth>the only way would be to make the info panel go under both lists, but then it will get too short to display all text, and adding a 3rd vertical scrollbar is not possible currently
09:51<planetmaker>I like the new look, Alberth
09:51<planetmaker>especially the differently coloured title for the detailed information
09:52*planetmaker would like to assigne "3rd scrollbar" to Alberth :-P
09:52<planetmaker>gah... today is typo day here :-(
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09:54<Weeknie>How do I get the subversion repo from the server copied to local?
09:54<Weeknie>I tried import but it sais authentication failed
09:54<Alberth>OwenS: the spacing between the buttons and the available list is too small indeed.
09:54<Weeknie>and there's nothing said about authentication on the development page on
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09:56<Alberth>Weeknie: normally 'checkout' of trunk (svn://
09:56<Weeknie>I see
09:57<Alberth>in particular, you don't want to pull svn:// !!
09:57<Weeknie>I noticed yeah:P
09:57<Weeknie>But pulling trunk now
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09:57<Weeknie>Thanks for the warning anyway
09:57*andythenorth has obsessed quite enough about the newgrf GUI and doesn't want to offend Alberth :o
09:58<andythenorth>but I wonder if we're swapping two easy-to-use separate lists for one window with two hard-to-use lists?
09:58<OwenS>andythenorth: no. The current system, even if easier (And I disagree there), is a real pain to use
09:59<andythenorth>also planetmaker you said comparing the lists was the *most* important reason to you for changing this gui? But you can't compare these lists.
09:59<andythenorth>in GUI design, what users say they want, and what they like when they see it are often different :P
09:59<andythenorth>but enough. he who writes the code gets the final say
09:59<planetmaker>andythenorth, I still like the adjacent view more
10:00<planetmaker>But truncated detailed descriptions are worse
10:00<planetmaker>so rather this view
10:00<andythenorth>the move up / move down buttons are going to baffle a lot of users
10:00<Weeknie>What are all the different makefiles for?
10:01<Alberth>generation of other makefiles mostly
10:01<Weeknie>Erm wut?:P
10:01<Weeknie>I'm a little confused there
10:01<Alberth>run ./configure, that generates a makefile that you can use
10:02<Weeknie>Oh I see, I missed the configure script in there
10:02<Weeknie>OK, thanks
10:02<Alberth>Read the readme
10:02<Weeknie>OH wow there's a readme lol
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10:06*andythenorth does some satisfyingly analogue drilling
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10:09<Weeknie>What are those sq files?
10:10<planetmaker>squirrels. and nuts :-P
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10:12<Weeknie>Erm, ok...
10:12<Weeknie>The configure doesn't generate a makefile
10:12<OwenS>Yes it does
10:12<OwenS>Unless something went wrong
10:12<Weeknie>It should
10:12<Weeknie>It sais successfulll
10:12<Weeknie>with 1 l less
10:13<Weeknie>Wait a sec
10:13<Weeknie>For some reason my windows version has all .in attached:S
10:14<Alberth>that is not the makefile you want
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10:15<Alberth>Weeknie: <-- contents after a configure + build
10:16<Weeknie>I'm gonna try this again
10:16<OwenS>Alberth: I didn't think OTTD used automake...
10:17<Weeknie>Oh right
10:17<Weeknie>I forgot about that
10:17<Weeknie>It doesn't like spaces...
10:18<Alberth>OwenS: it says "I" (ignored) in hg, so I guess it gets generated somewhere
10:18<Weeknie>It gets generated by the makefile
10:18<Weeknie>iirc the build here was compaining about it not existing
10:19<Weeknie>Like all the other makefiles
10:19<Weeknie>generated by the configure script btw
10:19<Alberth>config.lib generates it, it seems
10:25<Weeknie>Oh cmon
10:25<Weeknie>Why does this damn thing not work...
10:25*Alberth finds the new intro screen in the 1.0.1 version.
10:26<Weeknie>Alberth, what would be the non-alphanumeric character in C:\Cpp_projects\OpenTTD_Source ?
10:26<Weeknie>Can't it live with _?
10:27<Alberth>I don't know, me and windows don't co-operate very well
10:27<Alberth>so I switched to Linux since kernel 0.13 (in 1994 or so)
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10:28<OwenS>Alberth: Well, you have some 10 years on my switch. 'Course, I didn't even have a PC in 1994
10:28<Alberth>I bought one to be able to run Linux :)
10:29<Weeknie>Well I just don't get it
10:29<OwenS>Alberth: Plus, I don't think I'd have had much success with Linux when I was 3 :p
10:29<Weeknie>Lol, OwenS, I think I'll have to agree with you on that one:P
10:29<Weeknie>Hmm well, I'm off
10:29<Alberth>OwenS: why not, banging on a keyboard works with every OS :)
10:30<OwenS>Alberth: haha
10:30<Weeknie>Lol, baning on the reboot button only works with windows though
10:30<Weeknie>Anyway bye bye
10:30<Weeknie>Thanks for the help anwyay:p
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10:37<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19824 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Fix [FS#3837] (19799): aircraft would be heading to someone
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10:40<Alberth>now we never find out where someone is located
10:49<planetmaker>Alberth, somewhere in the wastelands :-)
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10:54<andythenorth>along with all the missing code :P
10:55<planetmaker>that's the name of the map being played on the cargodist server :-P
10:56<planetmaker>that's where we saw it first
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10:56*andythenorth is deeply unhappy with the shading of the FIRS Textile Mill
10:59<Wasila>Anyone wanna help out at the 32bpp project?
10:59<Wasila>We need coders/artists/people to do z1&2 (in particular)/administrators
11:03<+glx>would be better to do something compatible with standard openttd
11:04<Wasila>As the project gains momentum a patch will most likely be made
11:04<Wasila>making graphics in z0 and then turning them into z2 is a hell of al ot easier than doing it the other way round
11:04<Wasila>And if someone wants to turn z0 into z2, we could use that in default OpenTTD too
11:04<OwenS>Wasila: Why is your naming scheme different from standard OpenTTD?
11:05<Wasila>How do you mean?
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11:05<OwenS>My understanding is that extra zoom levels uses different names for 32bpp sprites than standard OpenTTD
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11:05<Wasila>The files are labeled, e.g. 204_z2
11:06<Wasila>Is that what you mean?
11:06<+glx>I think there should be at least a compatible name
11:06<Wasila>I don't know about this kind of stuff
11:06<+glx>ie without _zX
11:06<Wasila>You would have to speak to Jupix
11:06<Wasila>Those are necessary, glx
11:06<Wasila>since z0-2 are in the same file
11:07<+glx>yes but there could be one without zX and usable in standard openttd
11:07<Wasila>That would be a different project
11:07<+glx>extra zoom should be an addition, not a replacement
11:08<Wasila>I mean, the repo is geared towards xtra-zoom
11:08<Wasila>So most files there are actually only in z0
11:08<OwenS>Its stupid. Its irritating. The quantity of confusion it generates is staggering
11:08<Wasila>Renaimg the files can't be too difficult
11:08<Wasila>No it isn't.
11:09<Wasila>Many artists have agreed anyway that z2 32bpp is a waste of time
11:09<+glx>the problem is most 32bpp are incompatible with openttd
11:09<+glx>(without extra zoom)
11:09<Wasila>32bpp z2 sprites are compatible
11:09<Wasila>but most graphics are made in z0
11:09<Wasila>and for good reason
11:09<Wasila>Anyway, I have to go. You can talk about it in the 32bpp forum
11:09<OwenS>Wasila: We get people in here asking why 32bpp doesn't work all the time. The reason? They download extra zoom level sprites and wonder why they don't work in standard OpenTTD. My question: As your archives contain standard zoom level sprites anyway, why not name them compatibly?!
11:10<Wasila>I suppose there could be different files for just z2
11:10<Wasila>And then a different compile farm
11:10<OwenS>Not different archives. Just dump the _z2 postfix...
11:10<Wasila>Surely then you'd have three files with the same name?
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11:11<OwenS>Wasila: Keep _z1 and _z0. Dump _z2
11:11<Wasila>I'll bring it up with Jupix when I get the chance
11:12<Wasila>see you guys
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11:15<Alberth> I have a game with these grfs. Is this any good, should I add or remove things?
11:15<Alberth>sub-tropic climate
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11:34<SmatZ>hello z-MaTRiX, where have you been?
11:35-!-KouDy [] has quit []
11:37<z-MaTRiX>hi SmatZ <;
11:38-!-woldemar [~maru@] has joined #openttd
11:38<z-MaTRiX>now i have new comp, but don't have time playing :(
11:39-!-woldemar [~maru@] has quit []
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11:47<z-MaTRiX>and how are you?
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12:12<Hyronymus>can someone decode a grf for me and send me the nfo
12:13<Hyronymus>I have the sneaky suspicions that Notepad++ ran into errors
12:14<planetmaker>Hyronymus, we can't. You didn't provide the newgrf
12:14<Hyronymus>I was looking for it
12:15<Hyronymus>send me the nfo by forum pm pls
12:15*andythenorth can't decide how much anti-aliasing is too much
12:15<Hyronymus>DCC isn't working for me
12:15<SpComb>it usually doesn't
12:19<planetmaker>you got mail
12:22<Hyronymus>but your decoded has odd things too
12:22<Hyronymus>run a search for \D= i.e.
12:22<planetmaker>what's wrong about that?
12:22<planetmaker>it's a valid escape sequence
12:23<Hyronymus>well, somehow it seems to affect sprite loading
12:23<planetmaker>it's a comparison operator
12:23<planetmaker>it may well affect sprite loading.
12:23<Hyronymus>or... there have always been errors in the set
12:23<planetmaker>it helps to set the conditions when what is loaded
12:23<Hyronymus>Purno's wooden bridge is only used on the far side of the bridge graphics
12:24<Hyronymus>train bridges are drawn with a white concrete support under ramps
12:24<Hyronymus>road bridges have a 'traditional' ramp
12:24<Hyronymus>where concrete ramps are provided
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12:27<planetmaker>but what stopped you actually from de-compiling it yourself?
12:27<planetmaker>or just the suspicion that \D= was wrong?
12:27<PeterT>Is C# an ugly language?
12:28<Weeknie>Lol, yes it is
12:28<Weeknie>It's from that windows company
12:28<PeterT><yorick> that's basically nice C
12:28<PeterT><yorick> and then ANALLY RAPED BY MICROSOFT
12:28<Weeknie>That microsoft thing
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12:31<Alberth>PeterT: LINQ is nice
12:31<Alberth>and it has a pretty smart compiler
12:32<Alberth>yep, it does a lot of type deduction by itself
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12:34<Alberth>PeterT: you know what really scares MS? A bunch of people writing an open source platform.
12:34<PeterT>You mean Linux?
12:35<Alberth>people yelling at them doesn't cost them money
12:36<andythenorth>anti aliasing.....not always better
12:36<Alberth>providing an alternative solution does
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12:36<andythenorth>no jaggies at all looks weird
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13:14<Wolf01>hello :O
13:15*PeterT buries Wolf01
13:18<Alberth>Hello Wolf01
13:19-!-Aylomen [] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]]
13:21<Weeknie>Someone who knows Wolf01
13:22<Wolf01>to be or not to be.. oh, poor yorick
13:22<yorick>Wolf01: I know you :)
13:27<fonsinchen>Can I manually decompress savegames somehow?
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13:28<+glx>everything is possible :)
13:28<TrueBrain>except the impossible of course
13:29<+glx>but if openttd is able to decompress, you can export this part in an external app :)
13:29<yorick>fonsinchen: you can :)
13:30*yorick created a script a while ago
13:30<fonsinchen>How did you do it?
13:30-!-APTX [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:31<yorick>I looked at openttd source
13:31<yorick>need to look at the first few bytes
13:31<yorick>and use zlib on the rest
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13:32<fonsinchen>hm, ok.
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13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19825 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: hungarian - 1 changes by IPG
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: korean - 13 changes by junho2813
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 10 changes by mantaray
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 4 changes by mantaray
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: romanian - 18 changes by kkmic
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14:05<erani>hmm. i sent mail to get translation permissions two days ago and it was replied that i should have the rights by now. but i still can't edit my language in translator.--
14:06-!-tokai [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:06<PeterT>"but i still can't edit my language in translator" isn't a very useful diagnostic
14:06<PeterT>what is the error?
14:06<erani>heh. sorry
14:06<erani>it says that: "You have to be an editor before you can make modifications"
14:07-!-Weeknie [~Maarten_S@] has joined #openttd
14:07<Weeknie>And there I am again
14:07<PeterT>Are you logged in?
14:07<erani>PeterT: yes
14:08<PeterT>You've selected the language that you asked for
14:08<PeterT>when you get approved, it's only for that specific lanuage
14:08<erani>yeah. it says next to it that "read only"
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14:08<PeterT>Obviously you don't have the rights
14:08<PeterT>something went wrong
14:09<erani>hmm. should I try resending the mail?
14:09<PeterT>Try replying telling them the error
14:12<Alberth>TrueBrain: can you help erani ?
14:12<erani>PeterT: okay, done.
14:13<PeterT>erani: I was merely suggesting. TrueBrain is the website expert here :-D
14:13<TrueBrain>Alberth: Rubidium handles those requests
14:13<TrueBrain>erani: what username?
14:13*erani thinks he really should wait a little bit before doing anything
14:13<Alberth>oh, sorry
14:13<erani>TrueBrain: erani
14:14<TrueBrain>let me take a peek
14:15-!-nighthawk_c_m [] has joined #openttd
14:15<TrueBrain>member of Finnish Translator group
14:16<TrueBrain>so try logout/login :)
14:16<TrueBrain>Alberth: ha, I could be of help after all :)
14:16<Alberth>you have so many unknown powers :)
14:16<TrueBrain>I suprise myself every day :)
14:17<erani>TrueBrain: oh, that did the trick. terrific! thank you :)
14:17*erani shames
14:17<__ln__>uh oh
14:19<Alberth>TrueBrain: Congratz on OpenDune 0.3, although it is a while ago already
14:19<__ln__>erani: can you translate?
14:20<erani>__ln__: what do you mean?
14:20<TrueBrain>thank you :)
14:21<__ln__>erani: for example, do you know both english and finnish well?
14:23<erani>heh. I'm not a professional but I've studied it for 13 years and I still use it everyday, and I'm also contributing translations to some Launchpad projects
14:24<erani>I'm just a TTD enthusiast and noticed that some Finnish translations were missing :)
14:24<__ln__>Launchpad translations are not famous for their quality...
14:24<erani>that's true... I actually use more time correcting them than totally translating them.
14:25<__ln__>Anyway, please try to first understand the string you are translating before translating it... Unlike some previous Finnish translators.
14:25<OwenS>I wonder how KDE finds its translaters. My Swedish friend regularly raves about them
14:25<erani>it's frustrating to see unprofessional and failed translations :/
14:25<erani>__ln__: of course
14:26<__ln__>erani: E.g. someone had translated 'engine' to 'moottori' in OTTD.......
14:26<OwenS>(In fact he thinks KDE's translators beat Microsoft's, Apples and GNOMEs, which is really impressive)
14:27<erani>__ln__: :D
14:30<__ln__>all the fun suddenly turns into sadness
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14:30<Markk>Where should I put the data-files? I'm using Ubuntu 10.04 with OTTD 1.0.1.
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14:32<erani>i put the in my home folder directory named /.openttd/data
14:32<yorick>erani: try ~/.openttd/data?
14:33<yorick>oh never mind :(
14:35<Markk>PeterT: Yes, but I don't know where that is either.
14:35<PeterT>Markk: it should come with openttd
14:35<Markk>PeterT: Ofc it does.
14:36<Markk>But I don't know where any of the files are. :p
14:36<PeterT>how did you download openttd?
14:36<PeterT>sudo apt-get install?
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14:37<erani>ubuntu 10.04 still has 1.0.0 in its' repo i think
14:37<Markk>PeterT: No, downloaded the .deb-file.
14:37<Markk>erani: Mkay, but I wanted 1.0.1. :)
14:38<Markk>Alberth: Thanks. :)
14:40<Markk>Yay, it's working. :)
14:40<Markk>Thanks guys.
14:40<planetmaker>wow, andythenorth the textile mill really improved
14:41<Hyronymus>Saint Gobain?
14:41<Hyronymus>wrong screen
14:41<andythenorth>planetmaker: you see that much difference?
14:42<planetmaker>dunno, I didn't really do much of a comparison, just from memory
14:42<planetmaker>but it looks nice :-)
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14:58<PeterT>Hyronymus: interesting
14:59<Wasila>Shouldn't we be doing a base set before NewGRFs for 32bpp?
14:59<Hyronymus>I hope it goes better that the Dutch Trainset
14:59<Rubidium>Wasila: ofcourse not, diversifying the effort is a much better way to do "it"
14:59<Hyronymus>Wasila: other people are working on that already
15:00<Hyronymus>initially I wanted a Dutch Trainset in 32bpp
15:00<Hyronymus>but I reckon that limits artistry
15:00<Hyronymus>not everyone knows Dutch engines i.e.
15:00<Hyronymus>so let's start with a worldwide set
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15:01<Wasila>Not enough!
15:01<Wasila>But I see your point
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15:04<Wasila>I'd still rather we had more efforts working on the 32bpp set
15:04<Hyronymus>the problem is people with 3d skills
15:05<Hyronymus>perhaps recruiting somewhere might work :P
15:05<Wasila>I wonder if the flood of new people playing OpenTTD
15:05<Wasila>will get a couple helping out in the background?
15:06<Hyronymus>could be
15:06<Wasila>It's a remarkably large community
15:06<Jupix>Wasila: can't explain the sprite naming scheme, I forwarded your pm to GeekToo
15:06<Wasila>if you look at the downloads numbers
15:06<Wasila>Hey Jupix
15:06<Wasila>OK. Keep me updated.
15:06<Wasila>How about the patch?
15:06<Wasila>How stable is it and would the devs include it?
15:07<Jupix>that's also something for GeekToo, it's his code mainly
15:07<Hyronymus>yes, the community is large
15:07<Hyronymus>my roadset i.e. has quite some download numbers
15:07<Wasila>my scenario got astounding numbers
15:07<Wasila>until then I'd never realised
15:08<Rubidium>Hyronymus: the problem is the odd scaling "parameters" needed for OpenTTD, i.e. the extremely short vehicles
15:08<Hyronymus>I saw an image of some Spanish engine that is similar to the NS1100
15:08<Hyronymus>it looks peculiar
15:09<Hyronymus>someone should change the scale
15:09<Rubidium>then go play with Transport Empire or so :)
15:10-!-beerface [] has joined #openttd
15:10<Rubidium>or p1sim (or whatever it's called)
15:10<beerface>hello any one there?
15:10<planetmaker>no one here
15:10-!-Mazur [] has joined #openttd
15:10<Wasila>me neither
15:10<Wasila>I'm not here either
15:10<Wasila>just so you know :P
15:10*planetmaker points at the topic's last section
15:12<beerface>I have a couple of questions about creating a server
15:12<PeterT>@topic get -1
15:12<@DorpsGek>PeterT: Don't ask to ask, just ask
15:12<Wasila>Good answer!
15:14<beerface>what is the command to set the max loan on a server?
15:14<beerface>and how do I set the goal
15:14<PeterT>you need patched openttd to set goals
15:15<Rubidium>setting_newgame max_loan?
15:15<Rubidium>goals can't be set
15:16<beerface>ok so I need patched openttd so set goals to win, like who ever reachs a certain amount of first?
15:16<Alberth>beerface: yes, and to get it, you must write a patch
15:17<Alberth>as in, nobody published a patch for goals yet (afaik)
15:17<Wasila>I thought there was one once, no?
15:17*planetmaker doesn't know of such patch publicly available either
15:17<Rubidium>Alberth: there's one I think, but... don't get me started on the quality
15:17<Wasila>That's what I was thinking
15:18<beerface>ok and do I need patched openttd to like make the max loan like 200,000 and thats it
15:18*planetmaker stops Rubidium talking on that quality ;-)
15:18<Rubidium>as soon as I say if (foo == "bar")...
15:18*Alberth wisely does not ask about the quality of said patch
15:18<Wasila>Hey, Rubidium, do you know anything about the 32bpp extra-zoom sprites?
15:18*andythenorth concludes that CC on industries is generally.....better
15:18<Rubidium>Wasila: ofcourse I do
15:18<Wasila>I meant the patch
15:18<Alberth>Rubidium: more than enough :)
15:19<Wasila>If it was any good, would it get into trunk?
15:19<beerface>ok and do I need patched openttd to like make the max loan like 200,000 and thats it
15:19<Rubidium>Wasila: for example, I do know that I don't like most of them
15:19<Wasila>What do you mean?
15:19<Wasila>You don't like the look?
15:19<Alberth>beerface: can you set the max loan to that amount? if yes, you don't need to patch the server
15:19<planetmaker>@topic get -1
15:19<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Don't ask to ask, just ask
15:19<planetmaker>^ Wasila
15:20<+glx>@topic get 2
15:20<@DorpsGek>glx: Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger)
15:20<+glx>oh not 0-based
15:20<planetmaker>asking whether one knows something about <whateverY is pointless, Wasila
15:20<beerface>what is the command and where do I put it in my cfg to set the max loan on my server?
15:21<Rubidium>planetmaker: it's actually a self fulfilling prophecy
15:21<planetmaker>search the cfg for loan
15:21<beerface>I did
15:21<+glx>somewhere in difficulty
15:21<Alberth>beerface: you already got that answer
15:21<beerface>there is only a command to set it for single player
15:21<planetmaker>it's the same in MP
15:21<+glx>(with rcon)
15:21<planetmaker>on a running game you need to use rcon
15:22<Rubidium>planetmaker: "<A> B: do you know something about X?", "<B> A: yes, you asked about X" :)
15:22<planetmaker>even worse than I assumed ;-)
15:23<Wasila>Anyway, I've got to go
15:24-!-Wasila [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
15:24<planetmaker>you didn't ask your question yet ;-)
15:24<planetmaker>not important it seems ;-)
15:24<Rubidium>oh, mibbit... those almost always leave before asking
15:25<planetmaker>well, but he's not around the first time
15:25<planetmaker>at least I think so
15:25<+glx>I saw him in the afternoon
15:27*andythenorth ducks the madness
15:28<Alberth>and this morning
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16:02<Hyronymus>planetmaker: I've installed MinGW etc. again
16:02<Hyronymus>all seems to work, public key, private ley
16:02<planetmaker>good :-)
16:02<Hyronymus>but I get a rec circle with an ! on the resource dir for the 2ccset
16:03<Weeknie>Hyronymus, perhaps you can help me
16:03<planetmaker>I've no idea what the visual things on the clients mean
16:03<Weeknie>What IDE do you use?
16:03<Hyronymus>DJNekkid does?
16:03<planetmaker>I guess you deleted that dir and it indicates missing files
16:03<Hyronymus>uhm, IDE?
16:03<planetmaker>Try hg revert *
16:03<planetmaker>or hg pull -u
16:03<planetmaker>or better both
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16:03<Hyronymus>I already pulled
16:03<planetmaker>I have no clue about the actual GUI you use
16:04<planetmaker>as I use hg only command line
16:04<Weeknie>Stands for Integrated Development Environment
16:04<Weeknie>Aka your editor:P
16:04<Hyronymus>speak Dutch pls :P
16:04<Weeknie>Ok, hold on just a sec:P
16:04<planetmaker>it's quite a common word :-P
16:04<Weeknie>Planetmaker is right
16:04<Hyronymus>for geeks
16:04<Weeknie>You should get used to the word IDE:P
16:04<Weeknie>Anyway, hold on a sec
16:05<Weeknie>Start a private convo:P
16:05<planetmaker>Hyronymus: try to revert all changes to your repo. Maybe make sure that you save changes you wanted to a diff
16:05<planetmaker>or elsewise (especially images)
16:05<Hyronymus>but I never changed a thing to it
16:05<Hyronymus>but I'll try
16:06<Weeknie>There we go
16:06<Hyronymus>it's about 2 dirs: sprites and templates
16:07*andythenorth concludes that a parameter might be the answer for FISH
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16:10<Macha>How do I load a newGRF onto a dedicated server?
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16:10<Ammler>how do you install a newgrf local?
16:11<Macha>Stick it into the folder. I mean, I have it downloaded through the content commands on the console, and now I want to play a game using that newGRF. There is no GUI on the server.
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16:13<PeterT>hello Nilsor
16:13<Nilsor>Im kinda new to openttd
16:13<Nilsor>i wonder how i can add an AI player
16:13<Nilsor>go my singleplayer game
16:13<Macha>i.e. - I'm trying to play with my friend. Neither of our connections seem to work for playing there - so I installed it on my VPS, and started it with openttd -D .
16:15<Nilsor>Can you tell me how to add AI?
16:16<PeterT>On a VPS?
16:16<PeterT>Well, you would need to download one
16:16<PeterT>via console
16:16<PeterT>with some commands
16:16<PeterT>which, I actually don't know
16:16<Nilsor>i downloaded them
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16:17<Nilsor>with the content thingie
16:17<PeterT>then set it in openttd.cfg
16:19<Terkhen>at last :)
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16:20<Terkhen>I finished some long, tedious work... I should be more free now
16:22<andythenorth>how many farm layouts are needed?
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16:22<Terkhen>andythenorth: what will do that new FISH parameter?
16:23<andythenorth>solve the silly unresolved question about hovercraft (and maybe other ship speeds)
16:23<andythenorth>there will be an option for 'my way' and 'sensible way'
16:23<andythenorth>my way will include speeds that vary according to load
16:23<andythenorth>sensible way will be constant speed
16:24<Terkhen>I liked the refit for greater capacity and lower speed idea
16:24<andythenorth>it's still possible....
16:24<andythenorth>I don't want the menu clutter, but it can probably be implemented as the 'sensible' alternative
16:25<andythenorth>I need to face up to writing action 6 or 7 or whatever it is though
16:25<andythenorth>it's not hard, I just can't be bothered :P
16:26<Terkhen>it is not something essential, yes :)
16:26<andythenorth>Terkhen: feel free to test your FIRS commit rights if you can think of any additional layouts for farms
16:26<andythenorth>as I am bored of them too :)
16:29<Terkhen>okay, but I have a lot of pending stuff before getting into new things :P
16:29<andythenorth>I have far too much in progress :|
16:30<andythenorth>I should ship something
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16:32*andythenorth buys the Peter Gabriel album
16:40<Weeknie>Ooh, I think I've found my problem lol
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16:47<Weeknie>Anyone here who could help me make cygwin find my zlib?
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17:06<Weeknie>Whohoo, got it compiling
17:06<Weeknie>Not how it should be doing, but still
17:07<Weeknie>Yay, built failed
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18:27<andythenorth>bed time
18:27<PeterT>night andythenorth
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18:37<Nite_Owl>Hello all
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19:02<Terkhen>good night
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19:36<Eddi|zuHause>i find it funny that the nite owl always comes when everybody else is saying "good night" :p
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20:03<Nite_Owl>Hello all (again)
20:04<Ammler>good night Nite_Owl
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20:04<Nite_Owl>Later Ammler
20:04-!-Dreamxtreme [] has joined #openttd
20:05<Nite_Owl>That is if you are leaving for the night - otherwise Hello Ammler
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20:10<Ammler>yes, I leave... :-)
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20:15<Nite_Owl>Later it is then
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20:33<Nite_Owl>Hello switchgirl
20:33<switchgirl>i have just realised i spent the last week not eating and i drank water like 5 times :s - so adicted to the game
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20:33<Nite_Owl>it can do that to you
20:33<PeterT>switchgirl: try to control yourself
20:34<switchgirl>i'm a woman i'm superb at control :D
20:34*PeterT falls over
20:35<Nite_Owl>wait until you learn the real intricacies of the game and then see how all consuming it can be
20:36<switchgirl>Nite_Owl, just wondering about train signals
20:36<PeterT>which ones, switchgirl
20:37<Nite_Owl>which ones
20:37<switchgirl>i want to have a main line and have other trains using the same stations etc
20:37<switchgirl>same line even
20:38<Nite_Owl>there are two types of signals - basic block signals and path signals
20:38<Sacro>a whole week
20:38<Sacro>that's impessive
20:38<Sacro>i've done 32 hours solid
20:38<PeterT>of what, pooping?
20:39<Sacro>err no
20:39<Sacro>openttd, on Brianetta's server
20:39<PeterT>you've played 32 hours straight on Brianetta's server?
20:39<switchgirl>Sacro, I started hallucinations
20:39<Nite_Owl>path signals are generally easier to use but harder to understand while block signals are just the opposite
20:39<Sacro>switchgirl: me too
20:40<Sacro>i had lots of crashes
20:40<Sacro>and lots of insanely designed junctions
20:40<PeterT>Sacro: brianetta doesn't have a server up atm
20:41<Nite_Owl>switchgirl: did you read the wiki article on signals ??
20:41<Sacro>PeterT: Yes I know :( I was an admin for a while
20:41<Sacro>I miss his standard, his nightly, his deathmatch
20:41<Sacro>oh the memories
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20:42<switchgirl>Nite_Owl, yeah i still don't get it
20:42<Sacro>switchgirl: what's your issue?
20:43<Nite_Owl>is also good but is not for OTTD but can still be applied
20:43<Nite_Owl>there are also a lot of signaling threads on the forums
20:45<Nite_Owl>for block signals the only two you really have to worry about are entry and exit signals which do what their names suggest
20:47<Nite_Owl>incoming track -> entry signal -> track splits into station -> exit signals on each track (two way if it is a terminus station)
20:48<switchgirl>yellow white yellow?
20:48<Sacro>ooh, not used presigs in ages
20:48<Nite_Owl>entry are yellow across the upright\
20:49<Nite_Owl>sort of 'T' shaped
20:49<Nite_Owl>exit are white while combo are yellow
20:50<Nite_Owl>up and down on both - no 'T' shape
20:51<Nite_Owl>path signals are either two way (no bars at all) or one way (look like entry block signals but with two lights)
20:53<Nite_Owl>so to use your earlier example with block signals it would be: yellow (T shaped) -> white
20:55<Sacro>switchgirl: path signals are much easier
20:58<Nite_Owl>Terminus station with path signals: incoming track -> one way path signal -> track splits -> two way path signals at the edge of the station facing in to the station
21:00<PeterT>backups :-(
21:01<Nite_Owl>give it time
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21:14*Sacro yawns sleepily
21:15<Nite_Owl>I guess switchgirl got the point
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21:29<Sacro>hmm, perhaps
21:29<Sacro>or she's fallen asleep
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23:14<switchgirl> how to use the 10,00000 cheat? in the original i remember simply borrowing as much as you can and building a tunnel from one end of the map to the other
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---Logclosed Sun May 16 00:00:07 2010