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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-05-19

---Logopened Wed May 19 00:00:43 2010
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00:02<cypheryob>thats alot of people
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02:27<Terkhen>good morning
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04:09<gartral>what ports do i need to open for openttd?
04:09<@peter1138>!ports
04:09<gartral>erm, hosting a game/server that is
04:09<@peter1138>@openttd ports
04:09<@DorpsGek>peter1138: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
04:09<gartral>GRRRRRRRRR... i hate rerouting combined ports
04:09<erani>:D
04:10*gartral has crappy old router that doesnt think it's possible to listen and send on same external port
04:13<gartral>what method does OpenTTD use to encapsulate packets? (yes. I have to tell my router what kind of traffic to expect, or else it's retarded logic will choke the connection)
04:15<@peter1138>as DorpsGek said, TCP and UDP
04:17<gartral>yes.. but my router wants to know "packet encapsulation" (aka application type) my choices: FTP server, H.232 IP telephony, DirectPlay (DX8 standard), DP (DX9), DP (DX10), IRC server, PPTP, and SIP-based telephony...
04:17<Noldo>no custom?
04:17<gartral>nope.
04:18<Noldo>too bad
04:18<@peter1138>lol
04:18<@peter1138>stupid router
04:18<gartral>it's the hight of retarded.. and my school demands i use it
04:18<gartral>ill do DP DX9
04:19<gartral>actually.. i think AT&T demands my school demands i use it... but w/e
04:22<gartral>also: openTTD askes "do you want to quit and return to UNIX?" im not on unix.. im on linux! :P
04:22<Noldo>not you too
04:22<gartral>ok, ok.. i understand theres not much difference
04:24-!-DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-13-89.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
04:24<@peter1138>and yet we have STR_OSNAME_SUNOS
04:25<@peter1138>(When was that rebranded Solaris?)
04:25<gartral>but it would be nice if someone implemented a call too uname -v...
04:25<@peter1138>$ uname -v
04:25<@peter1138>#1 SMP Tue Mar 9 22:29:32 UTC 2010
04:25<@peter1138>yeah
04:25<@peter1138>useful
04:25<Noldo>:D
04:26<gartral>mine reports #33-Ubuntu SMP Wed Apr 28 13:28:05 UTC 2010
04:26<SpComb>`uname -o` -> GNU/Linux <3
04:26<gartral>or uname -s
04:26<SpComb>so OpenTTD can aknowledge the GNU thing as well
04:26<@peter1138>aye, we can't help it if ubuntu mess everything around
04:27<gartral>if i boot up my fedora box, uname -v reports #34-Fedora-some-date
04:27<SpComb>that's just the kernel version string
04:28<Noldo>why is it retrun to something anyway
04:28<Noldo>do most people play in fullscreen?
04:28<Markk>Hello, very random question, but what would you call "Reception Responsible" with other words in english?
04:28<gartral>i do.. if im hosting the game
04:28<@peter1138>what does 'reception responsible' even mean?
04:28<Markk>I think responsible sounds like an bad translation.
04:28<gartral>mean responsable for recieving...
04:29<Markk>That you're in charge of the Reception (In an hotel eg.)
04:33<Markk>Hm, Reception Manager maybe?
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04:42<gartral>how do you see chat history in game?
04:44<planetmaker>via console
04:44<planetmaker>you can scroll there
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04:45<gartral>`?
04:45<Markk>gartral: Press §
04:46<Markk>And scroll by pressing shift-pgup/down.
04:46<@peter1138>` indeed
04:46<@peter1138>you people with silly keyboard layouts...
04:46<gartral>fish-hook? i dont have fish-hook... i have `/~
04:47<@peter1138>altgr-shift-s (§) is not the right key!
04:50<gartral>Markk (dont give me bad/personal config info!)
04:52<gartral>hmm.. say in console is broken. (or i dont understand the syntax)
04:52<Markk>Personal?
04:52<Markk>It's the standard key.
04:53<Markk>I havn't configured any keys at all.
04:53<gartral>it should just be: say bla bla bla. and print "bla bla bla", right?
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06:02<Forked>And_rew: ello da_ta, Godrick og de tusen andre nick. Er ikke du bannet?
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06:32<@peter1138>all the best freaks are here
06:32<Forked>oops, wrong window :p
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09:26*andythenorth is amazed at least once a year at the false premium people place on the value of ideas
09:26<Eddi|zuHause>the what?
09:26<andythenorth>the "what I said" :P
09:27<andythenorth>people over-value their own ideas and under-value their own time.
09:27<andythenorth>oops...under-value the time of *other people*
09:28<andythenorth>it happens in openttd suggestions....but also in the world of film, game, business, web app
09:28<andythenorth>"I'd like to talk to you about my film/web app/business idea, but first can you sign an NDA so you don't steal it"
09:29<andythenorth>or the tt forums version...."All I want for this idea is a credit, I won't be cross if you go ahead and implement it"
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09:29<andythenorth>meh
09:29*andythenorth does some real work
09:30<@peter1138>sleep?
09:30<andythenorth>yeah, not so much, due to strange combination of baby & jQuery....and now is not the time
09:30<andythenorth>due to it being middle of the day
09:30<@peter1138>pfff
09:30*andythenorth wants to draw hovercraft and invent strange speed effects for them in nfo
09:31<andythenorth>but has to do jquery and people management instead
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09:49<Belugas>hello
09:57<Belugas>andythenorth, in fact, you have to WORK :)
09:57<Belugas>and not PLAY ;)
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11:33<Belugas>hoo... i've just implemented the concept of savegame bump in our app at work...
11:34<Belugas>in our config structure that is
11:34<planetmaker>hoho :-)
11:39<@peter1138>heh
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12:04<Rubidium>Belugas: you're not using XML?
12:05<Rubidium>what kind of "noob" has made the requirements for that? It totally goes against the standard of using buzzwords in specifications.
12:07<Belugas>of course i do, even sending informations from database to POs screen is done in XML :)
12:07<Sacro>openttd should support web 2.0 cloud computing
12:08<Rubidium>it does
12:08<Prof_Frink>Cloud computing is hard.
12:08<Rubidium>or I think it does
12:08<Rubidium>just run an openttd server on ubuntu on amazon's cloud
12:08<Belugas>the hardest part of cloud computing is when it's just blue sky outside
12:08<Prof_Frink>CFD with stuff changing state? That's going to need some serious grunt.
12:10<Rubidium>otherwise, #openttdcoop can be considered a sort of cloud computed AI
12:12<Goulp>if you consider that using X11 is kind of cloud computing, then openttd is cloudy compatible
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12:17<andythenorth>don't trains move at a certain number of pixels per second?
12:17*andythenorth wonders
12:17*andythenorth has been in the development forum recently
12:21*planetmaker objects being classified as AI
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12:41<Sacro>oh my
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: do you object more to the A or to the I? :p
12:52<@peter1138>hmm, can i use a second pc as a desktop extension...
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12:56<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: most probably both is not true :-P
13:04<CIA-6>OpenTTD: glx * r19859 /trunk/src/string_func.h: -Fix (r19853): preprocessor warning
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13:19*planetmaker wonders whether I should cut down into smaller chunks the new game window patch at http://bugs.openttd.org/task/3826
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>that's generally a good idea
13:21<planetmaker>yeah...
13:21<planetmaker>I guess that should become a hg queue then
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13:22<planetmaker>hm... do several heads and hg queues go well in the same repo?
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>you mean like branches?
13:23<planetmaker>well, I guess one could consider heads something like un-named branches, yes
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>don't know... never got round to learning hg queues
13:23<planetmaker>quite handy... for just that: stacked patches
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13:27<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: if you can do that in three simple commands, please explain...
13:27<planetmaker>I just try to assess the potential to screw up, if I do both in one repo: maintain the patch queue and the different heads which implement different things of the newgame / settings rework
13:27<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: hg qinit enables the patch queue usage
13:28<planetmaker>then with hg qnew starts a new patch
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: best would be a graphical frontend that can show me the different hierarchies...
13:28<planetmaker>you edit it and the you commit it with hg qcommit
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13:28<planetmaker>the result will be a diff file in the patch dir
13:29<planetmaker>with respect to the unmodified trunk (or whatever the repo is)
13:29<planetmaker>I don't use graphical front-ends
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>i like graphical frontends, you can get better overview
13:29<planetmaker>the idea is: you can apply or de-apply patches in a pre-defined sequence
13:30<planetmaker>you can stop at any intermediate step and edit the repo. Those changes will then become part of that intermediate patch
13:30<planetmaker>It might brake patches further down the queue, though
13:30<planetmaker>*break
13:31<planetmaker>Other than defining the patch being worked upon by walking up or down this queue, you edit the files as usual
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>... i totally don't understand this... i have 400MB free, but it fails copying a 300MB file with "not enough disk space"
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13:31<+glx>still the same harddrisk ?
13:31<+glx>-r
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13:36<planetmaker>http://tortoisehg.bitbucket.org/manual/1.0/patches.html#patch-queues <-- Eddi|zuHause if you install TortoiseHG you should find a graphical front-end to queues
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13:39<+glx>tortoise on linux?
13:40<planetmaker>yes, they claim it works on all three major OS
13:40<planetmaker>by means of pygtk on linux and osx
13:40<planetmaker>I was also surprised to read that right now :-)
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>glx: yes, the same HD
13:42<+glx>maybe your HD has a big problem :)
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19860 /trunk/src/lang/ (catalan.txt french.txt russian.txt):
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: catalan - 1 changes by arnau
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: french - 9 changes by ElNounch
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: russian - 60 changes by Lone_Wolf, perk11
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13:46<Ammler>planetmaker: it is more for gnome, not very well useable on KDE
13:46<Ammler>(but it is=
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>glx: but neither fsck nor smart say anything abnormal
13:48<Eddi|zuHause> 9 Power_On_Hours 0x0012 097 097 000 Old_age Always - 27295
13:53<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: not enough free inodes? Space (in size or inodes) reserved for root?
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: no, tune2fs says 0 reserved blocks, and plenty of free inodes (HDD has mostly large files)
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: when the copy process stops with "not enough space", i can create more files with 5-12MB size each, before it stops them again
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>"create" by "cat /dev/zero > testXX"
13:56<Rubidium>what file system are you using?
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>ext3
14:06<andythenorth>evening
14:08<andythenorth>trucks
14:08<andythenorth>http://www.roadtransport.com/blogs/big-lorry-blog/2010/05/australian-roadtrains-gather-o.html
14:08<andythenorth>:D
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>http://paste.openttd.org/225808 <-- that's how it looks like, after repeating the "cat" line a few times
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>where "0 Byte" means the disk is actually full..
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>if i delete the files, and repeat this, the numbers change slightly...
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14:38<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r19861 /trunk/src/video/allegro_v.cpp: -Fix (r19814): Silence a warning.
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14:42<CrazyTB>hey... I'm very new to this game and I need some tips.
14:42<CrazyTB>specially... What to do about trains (or any vehicle) that keeps breaking?
14:43<CrazyTB>shouldn't them automatically go to maintenence? Or that only happens if a depot is at their path?
14:43<yorick>CrazyTB: turn breakdowns off :P
14:43<andythenorth>1. turn off break downs 2. check the maintenance interval is short
14:43<andythenorth>3. with PBS signals trains often can't find a depot to go to
14:45<CrazyTB>PBS?
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14:46<yorick>path signals
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14:49<Belugas>Deathmøle - Conniptions
14:49<Belugas>yeah
14:49<Belugas>yeah
14:49<Belugas>yeah!!!
14:54-!-Devedse [~Devedse@cable-213-34-232-56.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg]
14:58<CrazyTB>oh, well... some other day I'll spend more time trying to understand the differences between all types of signals
14:59<frosch123>CrazyTB: http://uwe.s2000.ws/ttdx/signal/index.php?lang=en&filter=ottd
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15:03<Eddi|zuHause>CrazyTB: when the depot is too far away from the path, it might not be found when the train searches for it. use a "service at depot" order for that [in the train schedule, click "goto" and then ctrl+click on the depot)
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>CrazyTB: also, some old trains break down no matter how often you send them to depot
15:05<CrazyTB>Eddi|zuHause: Nice one about "maintain if needed" action! Didn't know about it
15:07<CrazyTB>Eddi|zuHause: Is there any way to "easily" update old trains? Do I need to update all cars or just the engine?
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>CrazyTB: only the engine
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>CrazyTB: read up on "autoreplace"
15:08<CrazyTB>I remember I read that page, but it wasn't so clear for me
15:09<frosch123>s/autoreplace/autorenew/
15:09<CrazyTB>It seems the tutorials are a bit... incomplete... The "Getting started" shows how to build a simple 1-track system
15:09<andythenorth>dropping a set of signals in front of a depot entrance can also help with PBS pathfinding
15:09<CrazyTB>but doesn't explain what to do next.
15:10<CrazyTB>Also... the basic tutorials don't explain how to maintain the vehicles. (auto-maintanence, lifetime, and so on)
15:11*andythenorth needs to get a newgrf to v1 so work can be started on BANDIT :P
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15:16<CrazyTB>Question: what does mean those red/yellow/green/gray circles at the vehicle list?
15:16<frosch123>profit last year
15:16<+glx>profit negative/low/good/too young
15:18<CrazyTB>weird... Because it seems that inside the depot and at the bottom of the vehicle screen they mean "Moving" (as opposed to stopped)
15:18<andythenorth>if you don't have vehicles losing money....you're not using enough transfer systems :P
15:19<CrazyTB>Probably that circle should be replaced by something else... Maybe a dollar/pound/money symbol.
15:19<+glx>there are flags in depots
15:19*frosch123 highlights opengfx guys planetmaker and Ammler as he is too lazy to open a ticket
15:20<+glx>or there should be flags ;)
15:21<CrazyTB>or just... Arrows, like those shown in stocks
15:21<frosch123>maybe some coins for the profit symbol
15:21<CrazyTB>up green arrow = profit
15:21-!-pugi [~pugi@p4FCC6F1F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
15:21<CrazyTB>down red arrow = losing money
15:21<+glx>anyway blame opengfx guys :)
15:22<+glx>because in original the symbols are not the same
15:23<andythenorth>planetmaker....fancy helping move FIRS along a bit....I'm kind of stuck for motivation working alone :o
15:27-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@94-224-31-113.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO]
15:28<+glx>I can kick you if that can increase your motivation ;)
15:31<Belugas>let's go andythenorth, let's go!
15:31<Belugas>let's go andythenorth, let's go!
15:36<Ammler>frosch123: ?
15:36<frosch123>read four lines above :)
15:37<CrazyTB>Ammler: I'm opening a ticket about that
15:37<Ammler>CrazyTB: which version?
15:38<Ammler>because I think, stop/moving is already replaced...
15:38<CrazyTB>1.0.1, I mean, 0.2.4
15:39<CrazyTB>Anyway, http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/942
15:40<Ammler>CrazyTB: no screens :-(
15:41<CrazyTB>Do you want me to add screenshots?
15:41<Ammler>would be nice
15:41<+glx>CrazyTB: 0.2.4 seems ok to me
15:42<+glx>ha no it uses a green circle when running
15:42<+glx>(red cross when stopped)
15:43<+glx>older version used red/green circles
15:44<CrazyTB>making a screenshot...
15:46<CrazyTB>screenshot added
15:47<CrazyTB>Another question... That vehicle list dialog allows us to sort vehicles by lots of criteria...
15:48<CrazyTB>But it doesn't show the value of each criterion. Thus, we can sort by age, but we can't SEE the age itself.
15:48<+glx>you can in vehicle details window
15:48<frosch123>the vehicle number turns red for old vehicles
15:48<frosch123>*too old
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15:49<+glx>and blue in depot ;)
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>those are different icons
15:50<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: true, but they look the same
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>that's opengfx's fault
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>they originally had red/green circles for stopped/running, but they changed that because of certain colourblind people requesting it ;)
15:52<CrazyTB>glx, frosch123: yes, we can see the age at the vehicle detail window. But that means we need to click on each vehicle, and then click on that paper icon at that new window.
15:53<CrazyTB>We can't see an overall view of all vehicles age, capacity, speed, value, ...
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>CrazyTB: that might be a valid feature request. maybe show the sorting criterium at the place where group/vehicle name or vehicle schedule is shown
15:53<CrazyTB>We need to open each one individually, and it quickly becomes very messy
15:53*frosch123 never needed such a list
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: might be important for rapidly changing values, like timetable delay
15:54<frosch123>i sort by age, when i want to deal with the red ones, resp. want to check the age of the oldest one.
15:54<frosch123>i sort by capacity, if i want to attach some wagons to the shortest train of a group
15:55<frosch123>i cannot remember any other important sorting
15:55<CrazyTB>Eddi|zuHause: about the icons... Nice to see the moving/stop being changed. Now we need the profit icons changed too. ;)
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>i needed sorting for timetable delay to adjust out-of-order vehicles which can't overtake
15:56<+glx>profit icons look like original version CrazyTB
15:57<CrazyTB>glx: unfortunately... they are not intuitive... :-\ Maybe money and/or arrows could be better.
15:57<+glx>but indeed arrows could be nice for color blind people
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>in a 3000 ticks timetable, having vehicles with 6000 ticks delay is... troublesome
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15:57<Rubidium>there are only very few that want a big spreadsheet of information in each window. Doing that makes it more unplayable for the rest. Also implementing such spreadsheet stuff is a lot of work for the very few that want it, but in reality not really use it
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>i need turning loops for trams which allow overtaking :(
15:58<frosch123>correction: i use sorting by "remaining life time", "length", "model" and "profit last year". the rest is useless
15:59*frosch123 agrees with rubidium
15:59<andythenorth>me too
15:59<frosch123>sorting is useful, but the actual values do not matter
15:59<andythenorth>time could be better spent on eye candy :P
16:00<frosch123>though argueable three of the four criterions i use are visible in the list :p
16:00<andythenorth>or providing 'wind' on the map
16:00<frosch123>*criteria
16:00<frosch123>(that is the second time today i mispell that word :s)
16:00<frosch123>"mispell" :p
16:00<andythenorth>1 byte for wind could give 4 strengths in each of 4 directions
16:01*andythenorth bad maths
16:01<andythenorth>shocking in fact
16:01<andythenorth>what's less than a byte?
16:01<Wasila>a bit
16:01<frosch123>a nibble
16:01<yorick>a nibble
16:01<yorick>a triplet
16:01<Wasila>oh, lol
16:02<andythenorth>one nibble could give 4 wind strengths in each of 4 directions
16:02<frosch123>however, what do you mean with wind of strength 3 from all four directions?
16:02<frosch123>isn't it rather 3 bits for the 8 directions in game, and 5 bits for the strength
16:03*andythenorth thinks in hex for a minute
16:03*andythenorth is sure this could also be done with a bit mask somehow
16:03<Ammler>CrazyTB: thanks, any idea how to change it?
16:03*andythenorth is no good at thinking in hex
16:04*andythenorth defers to frosch123
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16:04<Ammler>original set had flags
16:04<andythenorth>anyway we could get a lot of information about wind vector (speed & direction) into a small space
16:04<frosch123>Ammler: 3 + 1 red coins, 3 + 1 green coins, 4+2 green coins, 3+2 grey coins
16:04<frosch123>imo, start/stop are fine, but the profit is stupid
16:05<frosch123>s/green/yellow/
16:05*andythenorth ponders
16:06<andythenorth>wind vector was first mentioned for ships....but the FIRS wind turbine / wind mill animation could use it :)
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16:06<andythenorth>should wind vector be same across whole map, or localised?
16:06<frosch123>hmm, or s/yellow/silver/, s/green/goldish/
16:07<frosch123>andythenorth: at how many places do you look at the map at once?
16:07<Rubidium>what for the "not enough information yet" (currently gray) case?
16:07*andythenorth was thinking of generally prevailing winds in a region....so it would matter for shipping
16:07<andythenorth>maybe some places sailing ships do well and some places they suck
16:07<frosch123>gray would be darker than silver
16:08<andythenorth>or player has to follow 'trade winds' with circular routes :)
16:08<frosch123>oh, you mean wind zones like tropic zones?
16:08<andythenorth>could be
16:08<frosch123>then you need a way to visualise them :p
16:09<frosch123>(well, and a way to store them)
16:09<Rubidium>maybe, but... silver looks like gray and gold looks like yellow which might cause trouble after people upgrade
16:09<andythenorth>it seems pointless to make the wind change a lot. (A) it will be all out of sync with day length and players will complain about it for whatever reason and (B) if changes were frequent and random, they will average and have no game effect
16:09<andythenorth>B is more important :)
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16:10<Nite_Owl>Hello all
16:10<andythenorth>frosch123: store them in the map, it would need to be on a per-tile basis.....?
16:10<frosch123>andythenorth: i thought it would be just eyecandy
16:10<andythenorth>would have a gameplay effect for ships.
16:11*Rubidium still wonders what the point is of adding 4 MiB random data to 2kx2k maps just to make some windmills face a particular direction
16:11<andythenorth>also, if desired, planes, zeppelins...and hot air balloons :P
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16:12*andythenorth ponders faking wind in vehicle movement code
16:12<Rubidium>and having gameplay effect on ships would mean that you'd need to rewrite the pathfinder to take the winds into account. That makes making a better pathfinder for ships even more difficult
16:12<frosch123>hot air balloons? sounds like one-way travel :p
16:12*andythenorth looks if vehicle xy co-ord is available
16:12<Rubidium>oh, that reminds me... different directions at different heights
16:12<andythenorth>yup, I knew someone would think of that.....ignore it :P
16:13<andythenorth>! jet stream
16:13<frosch123>what is the problem with that? there are 16 height levels, and planes flying slightly higher. so say 20 levels. just 20 extra bytes per tile :p
16:13*andythenorth peeks into the exciting world of 80+ variables
16:13<CrazyTB>back...
16:14<frosch123>as i read that would be still less than simutrans uses
16:14<andythenorth>also....the smoke would need to go the right way....but that doesn't help persuade you that this idea is brilliant :P
16:14<CrazyTB>andythenorth, frosch123: about the wind... We can use half-byte for X and half-byte for Y. Then, each nibble could contain a signed 4-bit number
16:14<CrazyTB>from -2^3 to 2^3 - 1
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16:15<andythenorth>oooh
16:15<andythenorth>80+ structure appears to make vehicle x,y and z available :P
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16:15<frosch123>andythenorth: be careful with them. maybe they are not available for maps other than 256x256
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16:15<andythenorth>poop
16:16<frosch123>though for vehicles is everything different
16:16<andythenorth>RVs have direction of travel as a var, ships appear not to
16:16<frosch123>@calc 2048*16
16:16<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 32768
16:16<frosch123>that also fits in 16 bits
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16:17*andythenorth ponders 'random' wind in vehicle's nfo....but thinks it might be irritating
16:17<CrazyTB>Ammler: About the icons... The "not enought data" could be just a question mark, or maybe a clock/hourglass
16:17<frosch123>andythenorth: var 9f for all vehicle types
16:17<andythenorth>also random wind would change too much, unless I can hack animation to store state somehow
16:17<andythenorth>ooh
16:18<CrazyTB>Ammler: I like the idea of multiple coins for more profitable vehicles, and probably all coins should be gold anyway. (unless the negative ones, that should be red, or show a red minus sign)
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16:18*andythenorth can't see the 'vehicle fakes wind' method being much other than a lot of nfo for a not-very-good-effect :|
16:19<CrazyTB>Ammler: and the "not enough data" could be a question mark on top of a coin.
16:20<CrazyTB>Maybe the "very profitable" could have gold coins on top of green money bill
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16:21<Ammler>CrazyTB: do you have any chance to check how it works with original ttd set?
16:21<CrazyTB>Ammler: nope... I don't have the original one.
16:22<frosch123>andythenorth: devide the map into north and south, and assume it is a sphere. then apply windzones: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_prevailing_winds_on_earth.png
16:22<CrazyTB>I played the original TT demo many years ago, and never played it again
16:22<andythenorth>frosch123: I'm trying to figure something like that out....it should be plausible in nfo
16:23<frosch123>none - east - west - none - west - east - none
16:23<andythenorth>but it's a bit predictable....maybe randomise the zones on a per-game basis somehow....?
16:23<andythenorth>hmmm
16:23<CrazyTB>andythenorth, frosch123: maybe divide the map into zones... And "store" the pressure of such zones
16:23<CrazyTB>wind flows from high-pressure to low-pressure
16:23<frosch123>maybe also do spring, summer, autumn, winter
16:23<andythenorth>and rain :P
16:24<andythenorth>rain would be a major addition to gameplay
16:24*andythenorth is aware that it's not always clear when he's joking
16:24<CrazyTB>andythenorth: add too much rain and it floods the city...
16:24<frosch123>CrazyTB: as rb already said. map storage is a holy cow in ottd. there is no way to store something as unimportant as wind on a per tile basis
16:24<CrazyTB>and the transportation becomes a complete chaos. (we lived this in real life, a few months ago)
16:25<CrazyTB>frosch123: an entire map would have just a few zones, not too many.
16:25<Nite_Owl>a per tile ash cloud would be going a bit too far
16:26<CrazyTB>Another idea... Maybe you might want to look how SecondLife implemented the clouds/weather.
16:26<frosch123>hmm, firs lacks a vulcano
16:26<Ammler>CrazyTB: I think, to confuse opengfx and openttd features....
16:27<Ammler>you*
16:27<Ammler>opengfx is mainly just graphics replacement
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16:27<Nite_Owl>just wait a bit - someone will eventually suggest a volcano as a new disaster
16:27<CrazyTB>Ammler: huh... Why? I'm talking in parallel with you about opengfx, and with andythenorth and frosch123 about wind.
16:28*frosch123 very much dislikes every game with day/night cycles, rain and other stuff which hides the important view on the map
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16:29<Belugas>[16:27] <Nite_Owl> just wait a bit - someone will eventually suggest a volcano as a new disaster <-- Meush did it, a few years ago. it was pretty cool, in fact...
16:29<Nite_Owl>but did it include an ash cloud that grounds all air travel ??
16:30<frosch123>ottd already features a supernova disaster. just click "new game" in the menu
16:30<Belugas>nope. it would have not been too TTD
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16:30<andythenorth>I was thinking about a volcano disaster today
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16:33<frosch123>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/1936 <- found it
16:33<andythenorth>frosch123: I was just looking in landscape_grid.html....I had a feeling there would be no way to put wind vector into tiles :)
16:33<Yexo>andythenorth: isn't the major problem with wind the number of sprites you would need for each ship?
16:34<andythenorth>Yexo: that is a good point. But I might decide not to care too much about accurate sprites
16:34<andythenorth>it would affect the speed only
16:34<andythenorth>it can go in that class of problems labelled "it's only a game" :)
16:35<Yexo>can a newgrf actually determine the speed that often?
16:35<andythenorth>mine do at the moment
16:35<Yexo>isn't the max speed callback only called when buying/leaving depot/refit etc.
16:35<andythenorth>hmmm that sounds more plausible
16:35<andythenorth>yes
16:35<frosch123>Yexo: interestingly it is different for ships
16:35<andythenorth>whatever I coded for ships seems to just work :P
16:35<frosch123>though that difference might not be intentional :p
16:36<frosch123>or in other words, the log raft only works as ship :p
16:36<andythenorth>what about aeroplanes? pikka does stuff with speed during takeoff / landing
16:37<andythenorth>frosch123: how about a halfway suggestion.....implementing wind by region in nfo for vehicle is a bit baroque. What about a var that performs a calculation based on vehicle's current map location and provides a vector result to the newgrf?
16:37<andythenorth>maybe using map random seed for some sort of variation
16:37<CrazyTB>just a sidenote: in real life, planes always (or most times) take off and land against the direction of the wind.
16:38<frosch123>andythenorth: actually i would prefer the baroque version :p
16:38<andythenorth>well it means I have to write it at least :|
16:38<andythenorth>so I suppose it suits everybody else better :P
16:39<frosch123>CrazyTB: rockets take of in earth rotating direction
16:39<andythenorth>it's going to be horrible
16:39<frosch123>:p
16:39<Yexo>andythenorth: if you help define which vars to use / how to calculate wind speed/direction I'll write the nfo
16:39<andythenorth>I'll need branching varacts for map size and all kinds of stuff.....and we don't get proper integer maths
16:40<andythenorth>or do I mean floating point maths?
16:40<andythenorth>anyway FIRS has to do some bonkers stuff to deal with maths. Someone else had to write pseudo code so I could understand it
16:40<frosch123>i would guess you can compute most of that once on initialisation
16:40<andythenorth>where can I store it though?
16:41<frosch123>grf parameters
16:41<andythenorth>there's no varact to write them
16:41<frosch123>action D
16:41<andythenorth>ah
16:42<frosch123>store x and y size of map in some parameters, later shift/divide the vehicle position by those values, and you get the position in a nomalised scale independent of map size
16:43<andythenorth>then standard varact 2 with ranges for different regions?
16:43<frosch123>then write a varaction2 chain which computes the windstrength and call that as var 7e procedure call for every vehicle while scaling the result with the vehicle specific speed
16:44*andythenorth wonders "why do I talk myself into trying these things"
16:44*andythenorth saves this irc transcript for future reference
16:44<Nite_Owl>Nice ideas and all but does this not fit the very definition of "Too much work for too little gain" ?? Or have I come in on the middle of an intellectual exercise ??
16:45<Yexo>is the map size actually available to newgrfs?
16:45<frosch123>Nite_Owl: put the "too much work" in relation to drawing hundreds of sailing ships with different sprites for wind directions
16:45<andythenorth>Nite_Owl: it's probably one of those two outcomes....time will tell :P
16:45<frosch123>Yexo: yes, there is an action 7/9/d variable
16:45<andythenorth>writing code is rarely as time consuming as drawing pixels. and it scales much better :)
16:46<frosch123>hmm, no, it is a action d "patch variable"
16:46<andythenorth>if I was better at writing code it would be even faster
16:49<andythenorth>Nite_Owl: it's probably an intellectual exercise. Something like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagame_analysis
16:49<Yexo>hmm, a newgrf using an action B for only one specific language could cause a desync because it's disabled at some clients but not at others
16:50<Yexo>but then such a newgrf is stupid anyway
16:50<Yexo>probably not worth fixing that
16:50*andythenorth plays dope wars, which is probably not a metagame
16:50<Eddi|zuHause><Yexo> is the map size actually available to newgrfs? <-- yes
16:50-!-yorick [~yorick@ip51cd0513.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Quit: Poef!]
16:50<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: I just discovered http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=ReadingPatchVariables
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, that's the one
16:53*andythenorth "Retired a millionaire"
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17:03*Belugas goes home
17:03<Belugas>night all
17:03<andythenorth>bye
17:03-!-lugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8cb32.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:03*andythenorth codes some refits
17:03-!-Tennel [~Tennel@port-ip-213-211-212-60.reverse.mdcc-fun.de] has joined #openttd
17:03<andythenorth>how much do mail bags weigh?
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17:04<frosch123>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=CargoDefaultProps <- 1/4 ton
17:04<frosch123>@calc 1000/16
17:04<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 62.5
17:05<andythenorth>11t = 44 mail bags
17:05<frosch123>weird passengers
17:05-!-rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-188-100-221-094.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
17:05<frosch123>the average ttd passenger with luggage only weights 62 kg
17:05<Xaroth>they are full of hot air
17:06<andythenorth>default trucks seem to think 1 mail bag occupies approx same space as 1t coal
17:06<frosch123>default capacity is not based on the weight property
17:07<frosch123>http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/texts/capacityadventure.txt <- search for capacity multipliers
17:07<andythenorth>so a hovercraft that can refit to 50 PAX or 11t freight should carry how much mail?? :P
17:07<frosch123>it is based on cargoslot, which is quite stupid :p
17:08<andythenorth>@calc 50*62.5
17:08<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 3125
17:08<Prof_Frink>andythenorth: 47 letters and 3 postcards.
17:08<andythenorth>I shall make that the capacity then
17:08<andythenorth>I dunno if it will make much money though
17:09<andythenorth>22 mail bags seems like a good number picked on no particular basis
17:10<andythenorth>or 44
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17:21<frosch123>night
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17:38<planetmaker>:-( your carma is gone from the stable server, Rubidium
17:38<planetmaker>I turned on again desync debug
17:40<__ln__>ain't that written 'karma' even in engklish
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17:57<andythenorth>Ammler planetmaker hg troubles
17:57<andythenorth>remote: abort: No usable temporary directory found in ['/tmp', '/var/tmp', '/usr/tmp', '/home/ottdc']
17:57<CrazyTB>huh... the redmine web server is down too
17:57<planetmaker>uh @ andy?
17:58<andythenorth>that was the result of hg push
17:58<andythenorth>devzone is down
17:58<andythenorth>also
17:58<andythenorth>or same issue I guess :)
17:58<planetmaker>hm... yes, thanks, andythenorth
17:58<planetmaker>no fix yet
17:59<andythenorth>ho ho
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17:59*andythenorth ponders some sort of backup
17:59<planetmaker>disk full
17:59<andythenorth>locally I mean
17:59*andythenorth starts OS X Time Machine even though it's bollocks
18:00<CrazyTB>planetmaker: probably that's not the case, but a few weeks ago I had a server that had "disk full" while still had plenty of free space.
18:01<CrazyTB>The reason: the filesystem ran out of inodes. (checked that with df -i )
18:01<planetmaker>CrazyTB: it really seems to be the case
18:01<planetmaker>it's only a vserver and we use our quota
18:01*andythenorth wonders about buying more...
18:02*CrazyTB wonders about the size of /var/log
18:02<planetmaker>the only reasonable upgrade would be a root server
18:02<andythenorth>we have a web server that fills /var/log often
18:02<andythenorth>then dies
18:02*andythenorth ponders bed
18:02<andythenorth>good night
18:03<planetmaker>night andythenorth
18:03<Nite_Owl>later andythenorth
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18:21<Terkhen>good night
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18:28<caribou|>hello
18:28<caribou|>i'm having problem joining a dedicated server :/
18:28<caribou|>it says that the server is "offline" in the game but i can connect to the server through telnet
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18:31<Yexo>IIRC openttd uses udp packets to determine if a esrver is online
18:31<Yexo>maybe tcp is allowed by udp is blocked?
18:32<caribou|>i've forwarded the both protocols :/
18:34<Jolteon>k
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18:35<caribou|>ok that's working i guess the refresh was a bit slow or buggy :/
18:35<Jolteon>sure it's the right port(s)?
18:35<caribou|>btw i've jsut started playing this awesome game with a frien in coop that's why i thought about the dedicated server
18:36<caribou|>and i've seen this autopilot script, what is this about ? I've read about auto pause and stuff like that !?
18:36<caribou|>the main thing we want is just that when we are not on the server the game is paused but that's a vanilla thing isn't it ?
18:36<Yexo>yes, but autopilot provided that function already when openttd didn't support it
18:37<caribou|>oh understood, thank you !
18:37<caribou|>does it autosave ?
18:37<Yexo>openttd has an autosave feature
18:37<caribou|>good :)
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18:38<Yexo>you might need to enable it in the settings, idon't know what the default is
18:38<fjb>Moin
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18:39<caribou|>ok
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18:47<PeterT>caribou|: where did you see that script?
18:47<PeterT>my servers use it :-)
18:47<caribou|>in the forums :D
18:47<PeterT>oh
18:47<caribou|>what for then ?
18:47<PeterT>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Autopilot
18:47<PeterT>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Autopilot/ap%2B rather
18:48<caribou|>thanks :)
18:50<PeterT>if you want to see them in action join #sn
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20:42<Lapsus>Hello! :3
20:43<PeterT>D: !olleH
20:45<Lapsus>:p
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21:07<Eddi|zuHause>"did you mean ¡Holá!?"
21:07<Chrill>
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---Logclosed Thu May 20 00:00:21 2010