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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-05-21

---Logopened Fri May 21 00:00:34 2010
---Daychanged Fri May 21 2010
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01:10<dihedral>i need to patch my znc bot - only accept private messages from people who are in a channel i am in :-P
01:10<dihedral>unless they are ignored too :-P
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01:15<SmatZ>morning
01:15<SmatZ>@seen tintiri
01:15<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: I have not seen tintiri.
01:15<dihedral>hey ho SmatZ
01:16<Yexo>good morning
01:16<SmatZ>hello dihedral :)
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01:43<CIA-6>OpenTTD: smatz * r19870 /trunk/src/ (table/settings.h viewport.cpp): -Codechange: silence some of GCC 3.3 warnings
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02:48<planetmaker>good morning
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02:53<planetmaker>Yexo: split patches added http://bugs.openttd.org/task/3826
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03:01<Yexo>Disable snowline if not hilly <- you even copied the wrong comments :p
03:01<CIA-2>OpenTTD: yexo * r19871 /trunk/src/ (genworld.h genworld_gui.cpp intro_gui.cpp): -Fix [FS#3826]: update the landscape buttons in the main menu / newgame window correctly (planetmaker)
03:02<planetmaker>meh :-P
03:02<planetmaker>I noticed once. I fixed once. And then re-wrote the patch and forgot ;-)
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03:05<planetmaker>do you want an update? :-)
03:05<Yexo>course not :)
03:06<planetmaker>hehe :-)
03:07<Yexo>this->OnInvalidateData(); for OnClick GLAND_START_DATE_TEXT / GLAND_SNOW_LEVEL_TEXT isn't useful
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03:08<planetmaker>why not?
03:08<planetmaker>the up/down buttons need updating, if you type in a value
03:08<Yexo>because the value isn't changed when you click that button
03:08<planetmaker>yes, it is :-)
03:09<Yexo>The OnInvalidateData should be in OnQueryTextFinished
03:09<planetmaker>hm. where it is actually, too. Yes, so it's duplicate
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03:16<planetmaker>uploaded updated version. It's the smaller diff with the same name ;-)
03:17<planetmaker>can be quite confusing to have one FS reply with two identically named files attached :-P
03:17<Yexo>did you change anything important? I was already working on your patch
03:17<planetmaker>I changed what you just said: remove the non-necessary OnInvalidateData and the comment with arcic vs. hilly fixed
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04:23<CIA-2>OpenTTD: yexo * r19872 /trunk/src/genworld_gui.cpp: -Codechange [FS#3826]: move the widget updates in the newgame gui to OnInvalidateData from OnPaint
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04:33<planetmaker>Yexo, you now basically re-draw the whole window upon every button change, if I see that correctly, right?
04:34<Yexo>yes
04:34<planetmaker>why?
04:34<planetmaker>what's the advantage?
04:34<Yexo>because it's easy to code and correct?
04:35<Yexo>the window isn't redrawed more often then before the patch
04:35<planetmaker>hm, I guess it doesn't matter much anyway
04:36<planetmaker>It's a GUI window only, not called often... I didn't want to redraw much more than necessary
04:37<Yexo>as long as it's for every button click it doesn't matter, it becomes another thing if the window is redrawn every tick
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04:38<planetmaker>I guess :-) Might make the redraw code with tabs also a bit easier :-)
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04:38<Yexo>which part of the patch are you now actually commenting on?
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04:40<planetmaker>the last comment was referring to what I plan to do with the newgame window :-)
04:41<planetmaker>adding tabs to the new game window
04:41<Yexo>yes, I understood taht, but before, about redrwaing the complete window on every button change?
04:41<planetmaker><planetmaker> It's a GUI window only, not called often... I didn't want to redraw much more than necessary <-- that comment?
04:41<Yexo><planetmaker> Yexo, you now basically re-draw the whole window upon every button change, if I see that correctly, right? <- no, that one
04:41<planetmaker>IIRC it wasn't redrawn, if only one map border type changed
04:42<planetmaker>wasn't only the button updated?
04:42<Yexo>possible, but actually changing the widget relied on OnPaint
04:43<planetmaker>hm, also true
04:43<planetmaker>which then re-painted everything
04:43<Yexo>not sure about that
04:44<planetmaker>me neither. Or I assume(d) that it doesn't. That's what I based my statement "now re-draws everything" on.
04:44<planetmaker>because it's possible to change one widget state, have other widget states change, but not have that change reflect on the window
04:45<planetmaker>which is an indicator that not everything gets automatically redrawn with this->SetDirty
04:45<Yexo>this->SetDirty() should redrawn everything, but it's not automatically called
04:46<Yexo>in fact there is no call from OnClick to SetDirty (only in the GLAND_RANDOM_BUTTON handler)
04:46<Yexo>and indirect via InvalidateData
04:46-!-xOR is now known as xOR^away
04:47<Yexo>the alternative would be to call OnInvalidateData() and then SetWidgetDirty
04:50<planetmaker>OnInvalidateData should - as it is used now - redraw the whole window. Or it'd get messy with the interaction with the main window. Or one would need to add many SetWidgetDirty to it.
04:50<planetmaker>Probably not bad this way :-)
04:50<planetmaker>I just try to understand why you do it differently than me :-)
04:50<Yexo>planetmaker: InvalidateData() (without On) is a function that calls OnInvalidateData and after that SetDirty
04:51<planetmaker>ah, they both exist :-)
04:52<Yexo>I changed some of your OnInvalidateData to InvalidateData and removed a SetDirty on the line before
04:52<planetmaker>ah, I didn't do a side-by-side comparison yet. I'm not anymore at home :-)
04:53<Yexo>I only did it now
04:53<Yexo>but I took your patch and just changed it untill it worked
04:53<planetmaker>:-D
04:53<planetmaker>hm, where did my patch not work? In my testing everything updated when it should
04:54<Yexo>the water/freeform buttons didn't update correctly when clicking on them
04:54<Yexo>but that might have been due to another change I made in the meantime
04:54<planetmaker>hm... I didn't check them everytime. But I didn't change any code concerning them... dunno. I can't rule it out
04:55<@peter1138>hm, i wonder if there are any places left in ottd where the gui is updated after sending a command (instead of the command telling the gui to update)
04:56<Yexo>ai_gui.cpp:967
04:56<Yexo>autoreplace_gui.cpp:434/440
04:58<Yexo>order_gui.cpp:659
04:59<@peter1138>autoreplace? can we blame bjarni? :D
04:59<Yexo>order_gui.cpp:1176
05:01<Yexo>svn blame show me as the last one to change the DoCommandP line, and frosch as the last one to change the this->SetDirty() line
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05:02<planetmaker>blame and shame!
05:03<Yexo>terraform_gui.cpp:59
05:04<Yexo>couldn't find anything else obvious, most of those harmless
05:05<Yexo>possible exception are the ones in order_gui.cpp
05:05<fonsinchen>I could distribute the link graph calculation over the clients connected to a game instead of doing everything on each client.
05:05<fonsinchen>Then send the updates to station flow stats via commands
05:05<fonsinchen>good idea or hacky?
05:06<Yexo>that opens the way for cheating by modifying your client
05:06<fonsinchen>it does
05:06<fonsinchen>I could make the number of concurrent calculations configurable and have everyone double-check against the other.
05:07<fonsinchen>sounds funny but is probably awfully complicated
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05:12<Terkhen>good morning
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05:23<planetmaker>Rubidium, maybe you're interested to pull from the stable server?
05:24<planetmaker>11:15
05:24<planetmaker><Stablean> *** V453000 has left the game (desync error)
05:24<planetmaker>right after newgame
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05:30<fonsinchen>There also was a single desync on the fixed cargodist server two days ago and I can.
05:30<fonsinchen>'t yet explain that
05:31<planetmaker>it's not the first desync on our 1.0.1 server
05:33<fonsinchen>However, I don't have sufficient logs from the cargodist desync so there actually is no way to find out about it.
05:34<fonsinchen>In general, on monday I was quite successful with just uncompressing and comparing savegames with hexdump/vbindiff
05:37<@Rubidium>planetmaker: the new_map issue has probably something to do with the game tick between setting up the new game stuff and the actual new game
05:37<@Rubidium>and for some reason I've not been able to reproduce the issue locally to figure out what happens exactly
05:40<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/pics/deadpixels.png < hurr
05:41<Jolteon`>./
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06:42<Eddi|zuHause>hm... why do old games always segfault? i tried one in dosbox and two in wine... no luck :(
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08:07<Lefor>Hello!
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08:09<Lefor>Is it correct that some Patches do not work with Tortoise SVN? Instead i have to use the patch-command? :)
08:09<@Rubidium>yes, that is correct
08:09<@Rubidium>and not all patch commands work correctly either
08:10<Lefor>ah ok!
08:10<Lefor>thank you very much!
08:10<Keyboard_Warrior>i love how vp-8 has hardly been out and allready it looks like a patent pool for it and liscencing organization is imminent
08:10<Keyboard_Warrior>the free software propaganda movement needed some credibility hits
08:11<Noldo>what exactly are you trying to say?
08:12<@Rubidium>that he likes to pay for lawyers when buying software
08:12<Keyboard_Warrior>Noldo, well, open source is fine and all, but theres been too much bashing of high quality, publicly developed and open standards
08:13<Keyboard_Warrior>like h264
08:13<Keyboard_Warrior>in favor of the mess that is vp8
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>i should file a patent for "a method to press keys and cause a character to appear on a screen" and then sue everybod...
08:13<Keyboard_Warrior>well, software patents is a non issue in most of the world
08:13<Keyboard_Warrior>only applies in the us and germany nows?
08:14<Keyboard_Warrior>and that german judgement is likely to get challenged soon enough
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>Keyboard_Warrior: that's a lie, they constantly try to get software patents in europe through the back door...
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08:14<Keyboard_Warrior>Eddi|zuHause, well TRY sure, but the eu techincally forbids it
08:14<Noldo>Keyboard_Warrior: so everybody should just licence h264, is that what you are trying to say?
08:14<Keyboard_Warrior>and its not been implemented yet
08:15<Keyboard_Warrior>Noldo, what i'm trying to say is that, mozilla get of your soapbox and just link up with dshow on windows, gstreamer on unixes and qt on macs to do video decoding that way
08:15<Keyboard_Warrior>then nobody but americans has to pay decoder liscences :P
08:16<Noldo>aha
08:16<Keyboard_Warrior>also, mpeg-la will probably keep h264 royalty free for webcontent even after 2015
08:16<Keyboard_Warrior>remember all the open source FUD about the h264 2010 royalties that never happened
08:16<@Rubidium>Keyboard_Warrior: then Americans don't pay, Mozilla gets sued for not paying it for them and Firefox is defacto dead
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08:16<Keyboard_Warrior>Rubidium, mozilla isnt providing a h264 decoder. in any way shape or form
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08:17<Keyboard_Warrior>thus can't be sued for violating h264 patents
08:17<Keyboard_Warrior>*wouldnt be
08:17<@Rubidium>Keyboard_Warrior: so? They're allowing you to *use* it, right?
08:17<Keyboard_Warrior>Rubidium, and most americans allready have h264 decoders on their pc's
08:17<Keyboard_Warrior>without paying a dime for them
08:17<Keyboard_Warrior>and mpeg-la has yet to sue anyone for it
08:17<planetmaker>Keyboard_Warrior, that's not the point. You not paying doesn't mean that not another one paid
08:17<Noldo>because someon is paying them enough
08:17<planetmaker>^
08:18<Keyboard_Warrior>Noldo, well yes, where mpeg-la actually makes money
08:18<@Rubidium>Keyboard_Warrior: it's like, when you're drunk at a company party get offered a taxi ride or a night at a hotel, but still decide to go home by car and crash. The company can be sued for those costs
08:18<Keyboard_Warrior>is hardware products
08:18<Keyboard_Warrior>Noldo, thats the one place they actually care
08:18<Keyboard_Warrior>hardware products using h264
08:18<Keyboard_Warrior>bluray players, hardware encoding equipment, ipods,
08:18<Keyboard_Warrior>etc
08:18<Keyboard_Warrior>cellphones
08:18<Noldo>cellphones are not "hardware products" anymore
08:19<Keyboard_Warrior>Noldo, but they have a hardware decoder built in
08:19<Keyboard_Warrior>an asic to be exact
08:19<Keyboard_Warrior>almost all modern cellphones, and sevrall less modern ones
08:19<Keyboard_Warrior>have h264 asics
08:19<Keyboard_Warrior>ofcourse, that only adds 0.2$ to each cellphones cost
08:20<Noldo>well patents are completery FUD business anyway
08:20<Keyboard_Warrior>thats how much a h264 liscence costs.
08:20<Keyboard_Warrior>essentially, mpeg-la has a policy of, "never touch free/open applications" because thats where they get the good will for the format from
08:20<Noldo>"We might have something on you so pay up, if you do we don't have show what we have"
08:21<Keyboard_Warrior>Noldo, well thats the good thing about mpeg-la
08:21<Keyboard_Warrior>all the patents they controll are listed publicly
08:21<Keyboard_Warrior>and they provide something google wont for vp8
08:21<Keyboard_Warrior>protection
08:21<Noldo>so the patents covering VP8 are diffetent from the ones they already have?
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08:22<Keyboard_Warrior>well google refuses to help anyone sued over vp8 usage
08:22<Keyboard_Warrior>they've said so publicly
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>Keyboard_Warrior: that's exactly what the mafia does... it provides "protection" if you pay them...
08:22<Keyboard_Warrior>mpeg-la will pay the full cost of any lawsuits related to h264 or any other standard you liscence from them
08:22<Keyboard_Warrior>filed against you
08:22<Keyboard_Warrior>so, if some patent troll emerges
08:22<Keyboard_Warrior>it costs you no money at all
08:22<Keyboard_Warrior>if you use h264
08:23<Keyboard_Warrior>if you use vp8, you're a open target
08:23<@Rubidium>I doubt mpeg-la has enough money to outlast a few lawsuits
08:23<__ln__>Keyboard_Warrior: how is all this related to OpenTTD?
08:23<Keyboard_Warrior>__ln__, not really, but it is related toopen source
08:23<Keyboard_Warrior>Rubidium, you forget how huge mpeg-la is
08:23<Keyboard_Warrior>Rubidium, essentially, every major corperation ever, has a part in mpeg-la
08:23<ccfreak2k>Rubidium, it might be important if OpenTTD: The Musical is ever to be made.
08:24<ccfreak2k>Rather,
08:24<ccfreak2k>__ln__, it might be important if OpenTTD: The Musical is ever to be made.
08:24<Keyboard_Warrior>__ln__, well it would be the best way to implement a remote openttd feature
08:24<Keyboard_Warrior>make a video output mode to openttd
08:24<Keyboard_Warrior>and another viewer client that watches the video stream in real time and transmits mouse and keyboard stuffs the other way
08:25<Keyboard_Warrior>this is allready doable with latencies of about 10ms (not counting network latency)
08:25<Keyboard_Warrior>essentially letting you play 2k train games on your netbook
08:25<Keyboard_Warrior>with huge maps
08:25<Keyboard_Warrior>etc
08:25<@Rubidium>Keyboard_Warrior: I've been at such a patent "troll" company once; they're actually quite small
08:26<Keyboard_Warrior>Rubidium, well mpeg-la has essentially all the big boys and corperations :P
08:26<@Rubidium>that have bought a license from them
08:26<Keyboard_Warrior>Rubidium, no
08:26<Keyboard_Warrior>that hold patents that mpeg-la liscences out
08:27<Keyboard_Warrior>essentially, mpeg-la keeps track of who owns what parts of any open video standard
08:27<Keyboard_Warrior>and then lets potential customers and users deal with 1 company
08:27<@Rubidium>oh, so they don't even own the licenses; how can they provide "protection" then?
08:27<Keyboard_Warrior>instead of the sevral hundreds with patents pertaining to a certain video format
08:27<@Rubidium>some monthly fee?
08:28<Keyboard_Warrior>Rubidium, well, without mpeg-la
08:28<Keyboard_Warrior>the video formats wouldnt exist
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08:28<Keyboard_Warrior>and the patent holders would be stuck with a ton of patents that none of complete video formats
08:28<Keyboard_Warrior>and would make them no money
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08:28<Keyboard_Warrior>without mpeg-la, all the patents are 100% useless and valueless
08:28<@Rubidium>without software patents, video formats would be a lot BETTER and mpeg-la wouldn't need to exist
08:28<Keyboard_Warrior>Rubidium, well possibly
08:28<Keyboard_Warrior>but do realize, most of the GOOD inventions in video formats
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08:29<Keyboard_Warrior>has come from companies competing in the mpeg processes
08:29<Keyboard_Warrior>and trying to win patents
08:29<@Rubidium>possibly? Just look at the stupid work arounds needed because you don't want to infringe someone's patent and thus need to use some inferior technique
08:29<Keyboard_Warrior>Rubidium, mpeg doesnt need to
08:29<Keyboard_Warrior>mpeg-la as i said essentially controlls every video related patent around
08:30<Keyboard_Warrior>so they are 100% free to use whatever tehcniques needed in their standards
08:30<Keyboard_Warrior>these techniques was generally developed over sevral years using hundreds of people
08:30<@Rubidium>essentially doesn't mean everything is covered
08:30<Keyboard_Warrior>and empiric testing
08:30<Keyboard_Warrior>where as all the atempts at making open video formats from scratch
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08:31<Keyboard_Warrior>has been either very innefficient, (huffyuv) very niche (ffv1) very slow (snow) and unloved (dirac)
08:31<Keyboard_Warrior>video formats require imense manpowers and skills to design propperly.
08:32<@Rubidium>because they can't use the techniques that are patented
08:32<Keyboard_Warrior>Rubidium, they do though
08:32<Keyboard_Warrior>all the times, and nobody cares
08:32<Keyboard_Warrior>mpeg-la doesnt go after open source software
08:32<Keyboard_Warrior>so all the designed from scratch open source formats
08:32<Keyboard_Warrior>with the exeception of huffyuv
08:32<Keyboard_Warrior>violates plenty of patents
08:32<Keyboard_Warrior>on purpose
08:33<Keyboard_Warrior>because they werent written in the us, and thus doesnt need to care
08:33<@Rubidium>and as a result can be banned from the US
08:34<ccfreak2k>The guys of x264 probably knows this.
08:34<Keyboard_Warrior>either way, the problem with an open video format is that open source developers has this tendency of "code first, think after"
08:34<Keyboard_Warrior>ccfreak2k, well yeah, but 264 was written over 6 years now
08:34<Keyboard_Warrior>7 even
08:34<Keyboard_Warrior>*x264
08:34<Keyboard_Warrior>and it didnt have to design the standard
08:34<Keyboard_Warrior>just implement it
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08:36<@Rubidium>for what it's worth, there are European software patents as well
08:36<@Rubidium>and it's not like they're bright and new ideas either
08:37<@Rubidium>"Automatic image data quality adjustment to reduce response time of a Web server" <- sounds quite a lot like a) thumbnails and b) progressive loading of (IIRC) gifs
08:38<@Rubidium>but then that patent has been filed in 1999
08:38<Sacro>hehehehe, poor germans
08:38<Sacro>Rubidium: don't judge a patent by its title
08:41<@Rubidium>anyhow, software patterns generally do more harm than good
08:41<Keyboard_Warrior>in a lot of cases i agree
08:42<Keyboard_Warrior>video formats is just something that requires multitalented people and a lot of time and a lot of meetings and discussions and debates and proposals and thel ikes
08:42<Keyboard_Warrior>to be done well
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08:42<Keyboard_Warrior>i don't see how intel and samsung and the bbc and all the other major and minor players would be intrested in doing all that work if it didn't also grant them patents
08:43<Sacro>You shouldn't be able to limit an idea, only an implementation
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08:43<@Rubidium>software patents cost a lot of money in both filing (useless) paperwork and lawyers babbling about
08:43<Lefor>Can i ask a question to patching process again?
08:44<ccfreak2k>Rubidium, plus the poor schmuck that has to describe the damn thing in detail.
08:45<@Rubidium>not to mention the "engineers" of companies that for every algorithm they think of need to ask the legal department whether someone already uses that, thus needing to buy a license or whether to patent that theirselves
08:45<Lefor>i get an error if i try the patch -p1 < patch.patch format: --> Couldn't reserve space for cygwin's heap, Win32 ... and so on
08:45<@Rubidium>even then you'll likely end up in a situation where multiple companies file the same patent around the the same time
08:45<yorick>Lefor: what OS?
08:46<fonsinchen>software patents are the corporate answer to the anticapitalist nature of free software.
08:46<Lefor>Windows 7 (64Bit)
08:46<yorick>Lefor: using cygwin or mingw?
08:46<@Rubidium>after all, most new development in a particular industry focuses on the same problems, thus gets the same solutions
08:46<Lefor>mingw
08:46<fonsinchen>If they weren't there they'd find some other way to restrict the danger arising from free software.
08:46<yorick>Lefor: newest version?
08:47<@Rubidium>investing a year developing something and after that needing to pay another company money because they filed their fracking paperwork a day earlier
08:47<Lefor>i think so :) downloaded yesterday
08:47<@Rubidium>isn't something that you'd like as company
08:47<Lefor>maybe i should use an older version?
08:47<yorick>Lefor: using the automised installer?
08:47<Lefor>yes
08:48<yorick>hmm I have no idea then
08:48<@Rubidium>this then causes companies to file a patent for each tiny bit of "I've come up with something new"-stuff, which make the queues at the patent office really huge; you now have to wait like 5 years before your patent is approved, but maybe another one was filed just before you and you still shipped it... oops you're liable for 5 years of patent infringement... yay!
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08:50<fonsinchen>That's why they have patent pools: reviving the concept of mutually assured destruction
08:50<fonsinchen>Let's just wait until someone drops the bomb and then it will be painfully obvious how software patents work
08:51<@Rubidium>just look at the fracking eolas patent...
08:53<fonsinchen>That's not bad enough. If two major players, like IBM and MS, were starting a patent battle, now that would be a show.
08:53*fonsinchen is looking forward to that
09:02<@Rubidium>the problem is that both companies have enough money and such to outlast such a patent battle
09:02<@Rubidium>and they'll probably just settle quite quickly
09:03<@Rubidium>due to $cost_of_lawyers > cost_of_settlement
09:03<@peter1138>heh, still this subject?
09:03<@Rubidium>no, again and again
09:05<@Rubidium>oh, and I think that the length of copyright being inversely related to the amount of profit might be a good strategy as well
09:06<@Rubidium>i.e. protect smaller musicians/film makers more than the huge ones
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09:12<fonsinchen>copyright is a similar concept. Once copying of content became cheaper and cheaper, the industry started using copyright in order to be able to keep to an outdated model of distributing it.
09:13<fonsinchen>It doesn't create inner conflicts between major players though. And it's not as "contagious" as patents.
09:14<@Rubidium>same with patents; a medicin that made a profit after 1 year doesn't need another 19 years of protection, but something that isn't as profitable might warrant a longer protection
09:14<@Rubidium>fonsinchen: still, 70+ years of copyright seems totally absurd
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09:15<fonsinchen>Copyright in itself is absurd in a world where you can copy any file basically for free.
09:15<@Rubidium>and really, does avatar need to be a cash cow for the next 70+ years? Just make it a public thing and everyone (but the people profiting from copyright, read: lawyers) will be happy.
09:16<fonsinchen>In the long term there just isn't any business to be made with selling copies of files.
09:17<fonsinchen>Well, there are enough influential people opposing that move. In order to make that happen either that crowd needs to shrink or a substantial opposition needs to form
09:17<fonsinchen>I suspect the former will happen in a few years.
09:18<@Rubidium>basically... too bad the world is losing it's democracies
09:18<Sacro>its
09:18<@Rubidium>s/'//
09:19<@Rubidium>Sacro: I hate irregularities in languages, like that one
09:19<fonsinchen>Western democracy has always worked that way. Lobbying and concentration of power is just part of the game.
09:20<fonsinchen>Also social movements are, but I don't see a strong movement forming about this matter.
09:20<@Rubidium>not quite... companies (lobbist) are getting more and more power over time
09:21<fonsinchen>yes, they have a strong lobby atm.
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>democracies are always a balance between concentration of power and distribution of power
09:22<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: I think it's losing that balance quite rapidly lately
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>where full concentration of power is a dictatorship and full distribution of power is anarchy
09:22<Belugas>hello
09:23<@Rubidium>definitely going to dictatorship
09:24<@Rubidium>all the freedoms that are being taken from us lately for the 'sake' of (false) security
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not seeing that... the increased concentration of power in lobbyists has resulted in rising of new smaller parties
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>as a balance for the "distribution" part
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>of course, historically many democracies have had a swing towards dictatorship
09:25<@peter1138>this english/german briefing is awkward...
09:25<@peter1138>translators, dodgy mics...
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09:25<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: well, you people had the chance of speaking german, but you refused it :p
09:26<@peter1138>well you tried to force it before we were ready
09:26<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: ACTA doesn't sound very democratic, storing fingerprints of everyone (first steps to dictatorship)
09:27<@Rubidium>those internet filters popping up all over the world
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i understand what you're saying... but that's only one (strong) movement among several
09:27<planetmaker>1984 or brave new world. Maybe those two visions are managed to be merged
09:27<nicfer1>doesn't surprise me in such hypocresy land known as USA
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: the european parliament now has its chance to secure power in rising up against this movement
09:28<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: there might be some under currents trying to not let that happen, but those new parties don't have real power yet and as such can't do anything about it
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: it already threw out the SWIFT deal
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>it can do the same with ACTA
09:28<@Rubidium>oh, they did... that's quite good news
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>if they play their cards right
09:29<@Rubidium>I guess that's one of the reasons Japan doesn't use SWIFT :)
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>it's not all bad, is what i'm saying :)
09:29<fonsinchen>which parties are we talking about? The pirate party? come on ...
09:30<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: but currently the "bad" side seems to be winning; that might change in the future, but first we have to "suffer"
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: no, i mean the smaller parties (FDP, Green, Left) moving from 10% to 40% in the last decades
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: the pirate party is only at the very beginning of that proces... too early to decide if they're going to be successful
09:31<fonsinchen>FDP certainly supports most of the things we are criticising here, and the greens are ambigous about most.
09:31<fonsinchen>so, I don't see the point.
09:32<fonsinchen>you can talk about the left party, but you can also see that as a new socialist party, replacing the SPD which isn't socialist anymore.
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: what i mean is independent from the particular partie's policies... i mean the large parties less and less cared about the "will of the voters", so the voters shift their opinion
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>it's a process of counteracting the "concentration of power" (in lobbyists)
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>it's a dynamic balance... so it shifts back and forth...
09:34<fonsinchen>the voters' will is part of the problem, not part of the solution. Will doesn't form in free space. It's actually formed inside the political discourse.
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>until it swings too far in one direction, which needs a full blown revolution to get out of
09:35<nicfer1>is this #openttd or #politics?
09:35<fonsinchen>:)
09:36<TrueBrain>nicfer1: stupid question :p
09:37<Belugas>what's new :)
09:37<nicfer1>stupid off topic :)
09:37<yorick>poli-offtopics
09:39<Eddi|zuHause>what i mean is, as long as for every "concentration" movement whe have a balancing "distribution" movement, not all is lost in this world...
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09:53<Sacro>http://www.youtube.com/user/ottogunn?lol=cats#p/a/u/1/TXPQY_VRP6M XD
09:58<Eddi|zuHause>"lol=cats" is a great parameter :p
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>(but somehow, youtube doesn't work here anymore)
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10:13<luddek>Where do I get openttd 1.0.1 binaries for mac?
10:15<luddek>Ok i found it, http://gandalf.zernebok.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=48329&sid=4615ba40300c95444b2b7a9842db6fb0
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10:17<DJ_Nekkid>for anyone who might care; 2ccset 2.0 (beta1) is on bananas :)
10:29<planetmaker>I guess that should warrant a test on the PS :-)
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10:38<DJ_Nekkid>:D
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11:09<Goulp>@seen beerface
11:09<@DorpsGek>Goulp: beerface was last seen in #openttd 4 days, 19 hours, 40 minutes, and 19 seconds ago: <beerface> planetmaker: what do you mean hacked servers?
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11:10<planetmaker>:-)
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11:28<erani>has anyone faced any odd issues with music playback in ubuntu (10.04)? i have tried to install openmsx both manually and from openttd download menu and selected them from settings but they still won't play
11:29<@peter1138>have you set up a midi synth?
11:29<planetmaker>erani: have you also enabled sound in the jukebox?
11:30<planetmaker>You need to start music there, too
11:30<erani>planetmaker: yes I have, but it just scrolls through all songs with enormous speed without actually playing them
11:30<planetmaker>hm... might be worth to move the juke box actually to the joint user settings. Another issue actually :-)
11:30-!-fdagsfgf is now known as tycoondemon
11:31<planetmaker>hm, ok
11:31<erani>peter1138: um, I'm not sure what you mean
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11:36<OwenS>Too.... hot....
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11:53<__ln__>http://www.google.com/
11:53<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19873 /trunk/src/pathfinder/yapf/yapf_road.cpp: -Fix [FS#3817]: if the (guessed initial) destination tile of a road stop wasn't a road stop but was a T-junction or turn, the road vehicles would jump around in circles
11:56<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19874 /trunk/src/ (string.cpp string_func.h): -Fix [FS#3845]: NetBSD compilation was still broken in some cases (Krille)
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12:03<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19875 /branches/1.0/src/ (11 files in 5 dirs):
12:03<CIA-2>OpenTTD: [1.0] -Backport from trunk:
12:03<CIA-2>OpenTTD: - Fix: NetBSD compilation was still broken in some cases [FS#3845] (r19874, r19859)
12:03<CIA-2>OpenTTD: - Fix: If the (guessed initial) destination tile of a road vehicle was not a road stop but was a T-junction or turn, the road vehicles would jump around in circles [FS#3817] (r19873)
12:03<CIA-2>OpenTTD: - Fix: When a network connection gets lost and a game with AIs was loaded the client might crash due to the AIs not being loaded while the game loop is executed [FS#3819] (r19869)
12:03<CIA-2>OpenTTD: - Fix: Use non-breaking spaces for currency pre-/postfixes (r19867)
12:03<CIA-2>OpenTTD: - Fix: Crash when changing/viewing locale settings in the console [FS#3830] (r19865, r19864, r19863, r19862)
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12:08<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: towns replacing road types could have certain problems :P
12:09<andythenorth>One possibility I am pondering is restricting some vehicles to dirt roads
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: maybe needs another flag "may not be replaced by towns"
12:09<andythenorth>or towns can't replace company owned roads?
12:09<andythenorth>or something
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12:10<andythenorth>it's all rather theoretical at the moment :)
12:10<andythenorth>bulldozers are not usually welcome on asphalt :P
12:10<Eddi|zuHause>well, the point is, that towns should not be severely restricted by placing roads early
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12:11<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but isn't that a "good" restriction, that you can't use them in populated areas?
12:11<andythenorth>not if it causes routing problems on established routes :P
12:11<andythenorth>it might be a bad idea anyway :)
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i'm still not convinced ;)
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the point is that towns may grow and say "we don't allow this vehicle type on our roads anymore"
12:13<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: for clarification, my proposed restriction on bulldozers might be bad
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i understood that
12:14<andythenorth>we could equally prevent trucks >15t from entering town etc....but it might be unwise?
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12:29<Eddi|zuHause>althoug that is rare, it's not "unrealistic" per se...
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12:40<Belugas>that wold just be a new rule :)
12:40<Belugas>nothing wrong by me
12:41<Belugas>fact is, i like that
12:43<erani>hmmh, tried installing timidity package but still not working. it stopped scrolling the songs in high-speed now but I can't hear the music
12:44<erani>sounds are working though :S
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12:53<Eddi|zuHause>erani: can you try to play the songs directly with timidity?
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12:53<Eddi|zuHause>erani: possibly your mixer set the volume to 0?
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13:09<SmatZ>google gone pacman today?
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13:11<erani>Eddi|zuHause: no they don't play. and didn't spot timidity column in alsamixer :S
13:11<erani>seems that this MIDI problem is an ubuntu issue
13:11<+glx>SmatZ: yes 30 years
13:11<erani>hmm, I'll do some research later in the evening and report how it goes :)
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>have you read the known bugs section about ubuntu problems?
13:12<SmatZ>glx: nice :)
13:14<erani>Eddi|zuHause: yes I have. but I'm not sure if is spesifically a pulseaudio issue
13:14<+glx>it's specific to ubuntu
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13:20<erani>ah. just restarting both alsa and pulseaudio did the trick
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13:42<erani>thanks for helping though :)
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13:44<Eddi|zuHause>so... frosch123 is "recycling" nowadays ;)
13:45<frosch123>:p
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13:48<planetmaker>lol :-)
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13:50<planetmaker>every electron used to play this game is purely recycled electricity?
13:51*planetmaker wonders whether the android SDK is any good
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14:19<Alberth>it probably beats manually entering binary code
14:20<Alberth>would some rail road diagrams to explain the nml grammar be any good?
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14:22<planetmaker>rail road diagrammes to explain NML?
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14:42<frosch123>hmm, video tutorial for coding nfo
14:43<Alberth>planetmaker: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syntax_diagram
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14:45<planetmaker>he... :-) I wouldn't have expected a technical term like that behind those innocent words :-)
14:45<planetmaker>thanks :-9
14:45<planetmaker>:-)
14:47<planetmaker>but seems they're even understandable without knowledge of what railroad diagrammes are :-)
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14:48<Alberth>that's the power of those diagrams, unlike the parser LALR(1) rules :)
14:48<Alberth>Hai Wolf01
14:48<Wolf01>hello
14:49<Wolf01>hai Alberth
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14:52<__ln__>hello Wolf01
14:52<Wolf01>buona sera __ln__
14:54<__ln__>Wolf01: ¿vas a participar en la fiesta de openttd r20000 en junio, en alemania?
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14:56<Wolf01>I don't know if I can have time on june, maybe in july or august :P
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14:57<__ln__>i don't think there's going to be another meeting that soon. :/
14:58<andythenorth>hi hi
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15:01<Belugas>r100000
15:05<Alberth>nah, r65636
15:06<Alberth>r65536 event
15:06<planetmaker>-100?
15:06<planetmaker>@calc exp(1)
15:06<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 2.71828182846
15:07<planetmaker>before that there might be r27182 :-P and 31415 ;-)
15:07<Alberth>r74565
15:07<Alberth>planetmaker: the latter already has its own day
15:07<planetmaker>hm?
15:08<Alberth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi_Day
15:08<planetmaker>oh, you really meant that one. Yes
15:08<frosch123>obvious 31415 needs committing on pi day
15:09*Alberth nods
15:09<planetmaker>:-) That'd need quite careful planning, eh?
15:10<Alberth>why? at worst we all have almost a year vacation :p
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15:12*andythenorth is at 15230
15:12<andythenorth>dunno what you're all talking about
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15:44<CIA-2>OpenTTD: smatz * r19876 /trunk/src/vehicle_gui.h: -Fix (r14104): it was not possible to send all trains with common waypoint order to depot
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15:51<Weeknie>sorry you guys had to miss me, back agian
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>well, we have 5 years of careful planning ahead, to commit r31415 on 3/14/15 :p
15:52<Weeknie>Lol:P
15:52<Weeknie>That's some carefull planning indeed:P
15:53<Weeknie>But
15:53<Weeknie>Why?
15:53<Weeknie>(as in why that special day)
15:53<yorick>3.1415
15:53<Weeknie>Oh I see
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>because if you don't get it, you don't need to know
15:53<Weeknie>thanks yorick, didn't notice that;P
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>and yorick is a big spoiler...
15:54<yorick>yw
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, my guess is we reach that a lot earlier
15:54<Weeknie>Lol
15:55<Weeknie>I must definetly agree
15:55<Weeknie>erm, well, that was supposed to be a most, but must works too
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16:16<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.simcityplaza.de/images/stories/NAM/T_RAM3/rhw_3_0 7.jpg <-- we need those in openttd :(
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.simcityplaza.de/images/stories/NAM/T_RAM3/rhw_3_0%207.jpg
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16:22<frosch123>i cannot remember seeing a tramline with two platforms but only one track
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16:23<Eddi|zuHause>it's a turning loop
16:23<frosch123>i mean the one at the top
16:24<Weeknie>The whut
16:24<Weeknie>What mod is that?
16:24<Weeknie>I need that in my sim city lol
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>Weeknie: it's the "NAM 2010" mod
16:24<Weeknie>Thanks;)
16:24<Weeknie>Oh btw, could you perhaps help me with grfcodec
16:24<Weeknie>It doesn't seem to be working
16:25<Weeknie>Whatever I do, whatever command I give it
16:25<Weeknie>It just keeps giving the help message
16:25<frosch123>what did you type?
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: well, theoretically both tram platforms should be on the same side, but that's difficult to achieve since that's a "normal" tram stop built into the turning loop
16:25<Weeknie>For instance, grfcodec -d dutchtrainsw.grf
16:25<Weeknie>That should work to decode it right?
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>you should add -p2, but theoretically that should work
16:26<Weeknie>Just gives me the help message:S
16:27<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: do we need the actual loop, or to modify tram turning behaviour?
16:27<frosch123>works for me. it create a "sprites" directory with a nfo and a pcx
16:27<andythenorth>routing tram tracks in cities can be...bizarre sometimes
16:28<Weeknie>frosch123, are you on windows?
16:28<frosch123>no
16:28<Weeknie>Lol
16:28<Weeknie>Was afraid you were gonna say that
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: both, we need the double platform at the loop to allow overtaking at the turning point
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>so one tram can perform its scheduled wait time, while the other tram that was stuck behind can catch up with its timetable
16:29<Belugas>time to go bye
16:29<Alberth>bye Belugas
16:30<Weeknie>frosch123, I guess you got the linux version of grfcodec, you just pasted those 3 files to your bin and then it worked?
16:30<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: we need lots of things :P How would that one be implemented (in terms of tiles, construction etc)?
16:30<andythenorth>does it need a state machine?
16:30<planetmaker>bye bye Belugas
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yes, it does need a state machine (airport-style)
16:31<frosch123>Weeknie: i compiled r2125 myself
16:31<Weeknie>Hmm I see
16:31<Weeknie>Lemme try that myself
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16:31<Eddi|zuHause>first part of the state machine must guide the tram along the track, and second part the state machine must stop a third tram before the switch (like a presignal)
16:32<andythenorth>is the existing non-drive-through road stop a state machine?
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>yes
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>problem is, the current state machines can't handle articulated vehicles
16:33<andythenorth>would you need two-tiles width for the kind of stop you propose?
16:33<andythenorth>as that will be difficult to place in towns
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>that includes the proposed airport state machines
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>typically you put turning loops at the outskirts of towns, so you should have space ;)
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i was thinking 2x2 or 2x3
16:33<Weeknie>Agreed with Eddi|zuHause ther
16:33<Weeknie>there*
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>historically, early trams did not have turning loops, but went backwards... but someone decided that trams in openttd shouldn't do that
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>turning loops were introduced because they allow longer trams
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>and modern trams have multi traction support, so they can again go backwards while still being long
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16:51<frosch123>hmm, i should have called it 'feature'
16:51<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r19877 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt newgrf.cpp strings.cpp): -Change: Name invalid engines, cargos and industries 'invalid', if the player removed the supplying NewGRFs.
16:52<frosch123>i accept bets, how many complains related to that change are raised till the end of month :)
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17:04<andythenorth>3
17:04<andythenorth>what are the betting prices?
17:05<frosch123>hmm, maybe 250g chocolate cookies?
17:05<Weeknie>erm, frosch123, had any problems compiling grfcodec yourself?
17:05<frosch123>Weeknie: did you got a grfcodec executable? if yes, ignore other errors
17:06<Weeknie>I did not
17:06<Weeknie>That's the problem
17:06<frosch123>well, then i likely got not those problems
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>i needed to install a newer version of boost
17:06<Weeknie>For some reason the compiler finds that "mkdir" doesn't exist in a function's scope, while it DOES exist in another file in exactly the same slope
17:06<Weeknie>erm
17:06<Weeknie>boost?
17:07<frosch123>fat c++ template libary
17:07<Weeknie>m'kay
17:07<Weeknie>fetchingz
17:09<Weeknie>Any idea what lines like "Warning: .drectve `-aligncomm:___mingw_gMTRemoveKeyDtor,2 ' unrecognized" are supposed to mean/could hint to?
17:11<Weeknie>A fat c++ lib indeed
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17:17<Weeknie>Damn I really should work with linux more often
17:17<Weeknie>There it goes again about the mkdir thing...
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17:38<__ln__>hmm, so talia shire is the aunt of nicolas cage?
17:39<Weeknie>Apparently yeah
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17:43<Eddi|zuHause>who?
17:43<@Rubidium>the doctor?
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18:03<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: the one who plays adrian in 'rocky'.
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>i have never seen rocky...
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18:09<__ln__>you've missed something then
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18:14<Wolf01>'night
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18:32<frosch123>night
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18:34<Eddi|zuHause>hm... anybody know how i can teach "wget -m" to replace "?" in links with something more valid in filenames?
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>currently, it creates files with "xxx.php?xyz" as filenames, but opening the links to those in the browser will try to open "xxx.php" with the parameter "xyz", which obviously fails
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19:12<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: -E | --html-extension
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19:13<+glx>it will save it as "xxx.php?xyz.html" if I understand the doc
19:19<Terkhen>good night
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19:28<Nite_Owl>Hello all
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19:34<Eddi|zuHause>glx: how will that help?
19:34<Eddi|zuHause>glx: the ? is the problem, as it has special meaning in URLs
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19:34<Eddi|zuHause>it must be replaced by a character that does not have special meaning
19:35<+glx>"This is useful, for instance, when you're mirroring a remote site that uses .asp pages, but you want the mirrored pages to be viewable on your stock Apache server." <-- that's what manpage says
19:37<+glx>--restrict-file-names=mode
19:37<+glx>this looks better
19:41<Eddi|zuHause>that might be the one i'm looking for
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---Logclosed Sat May 22 00:00:55 2010