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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-05-23

---Logopened Sun May 23 00:00:56 2010
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02:52*andythenorth has an evil idea
02:53<Alberth>as long as it is fun
02:53<andythenorth>no, it's bad
02:53<andythenorth>town growth cargos could be faked by having FIRS town industries produce passengers at varying levels (general store etc.)
02:53<andythenorth>it's a bad idea
02:54<Alberth>evil seems like the right description to me :)
02:54-!-Weeknie [~Maarten_S@cp1042784-a.dbsch1.nb.home.nl] has joined #openttd
02:55<Alberth>so how are houses really different from industry?
02:55<andythenorth>no production callback
02:56<Alberth>ie could we make a town consisting of industry that looks like houses?
02:56<andythenorth>only 2x2 max dimensions
02:56<andythenorth>yes
02:56<andythenorth>it would do some conceptual damage to the industry mini-map though :P
02:56<andythenorth>and to the industry list
02:56<Alberth>houses are probably a bit cheaper in cpu time
02:57<andythenorth>we could make the whole town as an industry....
02:57<andythenorth>just one...
02:58<Alberth>if you let go of arganic growth ;)
02:58<Alberth>with the square-ish road styles, that may make sense
02:59<Alberth>one industry for one square
02:59<andythenorth>city blocks?
03:00-!-elmz [~elmz@222.80-202-29.nextgentel.com] has joined #openttd
03:00<andythenorth>7x7 industries: four 3x3 blocks with a + shaped gap for roads
03:01<Alberth>for example
03:02<andythenorth>why are we planning this escapade?
03:02<andythenorth>thought experiment?
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03:06<Alberth>just wondering about houses versus industries
03:06-!-elmz_ [~elmz@222.80-202-29.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
03:07<Alberth>and you having an evil idea, of course
03:07<planetmaker>good morning
03:07<Weeknie>Mornin'
03:07<Alberth>good morning
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03:19<andythenorth>morning planetmaker
03:19<andythenorth>what do you think about implementing towns as industries? :P
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03:20<Weeknie>Just a quick question, what are cargo ID's precisely?
03:21<planetmaker>:-P andythenorth great idea. Then we finally could found Wolfsburg ;-)
03:21<planetmaker>or Salzgitter
03:21<andythenorth>Weeknie: in what context?
03:21<andythenorth>they can be at least two things
03:21<Weeknie>andythenorth, in the context of NFO rules and defining a vehicle
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03:21<Weeknie>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=TheFirstVehicle that context
03:21<andythenorth>probably the ID of the action 2 or varaction 2
03:21<Weeknie>Unde "using actions 2 and 3"
03:22<andythenorth>unless you are working with actual cargo slots / IDs
03:22<andythenorth>the TTDP wiki refers to action 2 IDs as cargo IDs a lot, for historical reasons
03:23<andythenorth>it's easier to think of them as action 2 IDs, unless you are actually doing something with 'coal' (or 'goods' or whatever)
03:24<Weeknie>Yeah ok
03:24<Weeknie>Quite confusing, but I'll keep that in mind
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03:25*andythenorth has an idea
03:25<__ln__>oh no
03:26<andythenorth>TTO secondary industry supplies some cargo even if unsupplied
03:26<andythenorth>is that a nice feature?
03:26<__ln__>what is a secondary industry?
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03:27<andythenorth>factory, steel mill, food processing plant
03:27<Weeknie>Primary are things like farms, that produce without supplies
03:27<Weeknie>Secondary take primary goods and turn them into secondary and so on
03:28<Weeknie>I don't know if you also refer to things like power plant as final industries, but f you do, final industries take goods without producing
03:28<__ln__>ah, secondary in that sense.
03:32<Weeknie>__ln__, in what sense did you think then?
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03:38<Weeknie>What number should I give for version in my action 8?
03:38<Weeknie>Just the highest or?
03:39<Weeknie>(since they refer to TTDPatch versions, not openTTD)
03:39<Weeknie>Does doesn't OTTD care about them, because of what I just mentioned
03:40<andythenorth>Weeknie: have a look on the coop devzone for examples
03:40<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/
03:40<andythenorth>I don't know....I just copy and paste :P
03:40<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/fish/repository/entry/sprites/nfo/header.pnfo
03:41<Weeknie>Oh great, page isn't loading (problem on my side though)
03:41<Weeknie>So strange
03:41<Weeknie>Whole internet is down
03:41<Weeknie>But I can still chat
03:42<andythenorth>dns failure perhaps
03:43<Weeknie>Lol, well, first it wasn't a dns failure
03:44<Weeknie>But now it is
03:44<Weeknie>An instant dns failure though
03:44<Weeknie>Not a timeout
03:44<Weeknie>Strange
03:45<Weeknie>But erm, andythenorth, could you perhaps tell me?:P
03:45<Weeknie>Or will I just have to wait untill my dns is finally workingz again
03:45<andythenorth>Looks like I'm using version 7
03:46<Weeknie>Ok, thanks
03:48<planetmaker>version7 is the latest newgrf version. You want that usually
03:48<Weeknie>Oh damn this is irritating, not having internet...
03:49<Weeknie>Any idea why my nforenum keeps saying that the file doesn't appear to be a NFO file, though it most certainly is?
03:49<Weeknie>What does it expect to find?
03:49<planetmaker>yes. missing header
03:49<Weeknie>Hmm ok
03:50<planetmaker>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/nightlies/firs.nfo
03:50<Weeknie>Can't look:P
03:50<planetmaker>don't touch the first four lines
03:52<Weeknie>Yay
03:52<Weeknie>Gonna go home
03:52<Weeknie>Might have internet there
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03:54*andythenorth wonders how many tiles for a petrol station?
03:54<andythenorth>1x1 or 1x2
03:57<Alberth>1x2 would give you nice entry and exit lanes
03:58<andythenorth>I think so
03:58<andythenorth>wonder if I can restrict layouts by date?
03:59<Alberth>I was thinking that too some weeks ago, it would be great if we can have different styles of houses depending on when they are built
03:59<andythenorth>you can :D
03:59<andythenorth>trivial
03:59<Alberth>it is just too many graphics, I guess :)
04:00<andythenorth>default game does it to some extent
04:01<planetmaker>It's just that industries cannot change their size according to date
04:01<planetmaker>I guess with some animation hack you could change their looks by date
04:02<Alberth>draw some green tiles in the first years :)
04:02<planetmaker>houses can use the latter, too
04:02<andythenorth>just use regular varaction 2 and check the date, it's easy
04:02<planetmaker>Alberth: yes, just plain ground tiles
04:02*andythenorth likes being able to say "it's easy"
04:02<planetmaker>the only problem with that is: the player will see them as plain ground tile, too :-)
04:02<planetmaker>so you have to start big already :-)
04:03<andythenorth>yes
04:03<planetmaker>it might be more interesting to grow :-P
04:03<andythenorth>even if expansion was possible in code, it wouldn't work in gameplay
04:03<andythenorth>it would too often be blocked by stations, routes, immovables, terrain, houses
04:04<andythenorth>it's TMWFTLB even though I would like the feature in principle
04:04<Alberth>grey street tiles would be better, which you can later turn into buildings
04:05<andythenorth>'vacant lot'
04:06<Alberth>'industry buys ground claims ground from company X'
04:06<Alberth>s/buys ground//
04:07<planetmaker>Well, the idea to use *any* ground tiles makes sense
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04:07<planetmaker>it doesn't make sense to use concrete ground tiles for the places an open pit has not yet expanded to
04:07<Alberth>hmm, what about moving the industry?
04:08<Alberth>or extending at a second site?
04:08<planetmaker>moving is not necessarily nice, if you have it in your station coverage area :-)
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04:09<planetmaker>that'd again result in too much micromanagement
04:09<planetmaker>and it's not like one can build fully a bigger map within the game speed anyway
04:12<Alberth>what about the player needing to make room for expansion? ie the manufacturer asks the player to make room. if he complies, he gets a bigger factory. If not, he doesn't
04:13<planetmaker>that'd be somewhat against the game concept: transport
04:14<Alberth>hmm, yes
04:14<andythenorth>I thought of overbuildable industry tiles....but that has problems too
04:15<andythenorth>I think we get industries at the size we get them :)
04:15*Alberth agrees, it gets quite complicated otherwise
04:16<andythenorth>if FIRS has 'expanding' industries I'll do it with some empty tiles that get filled over time
04:16<planetmaker>well, allowing an action2 to reserve more tiles?
04:16<planetmaker>That *could* somehow work
04:16<planetmaker>or callback
04:16<planetmaker>to build another layout over the exiting one.
04:16<planetmaker>Layout-change callback
04:17<planetmaker>if there's no space: nothing happens
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04:18<andythenorth>'try and add a small block of tiles nearby' might work
04:18<andythenorth>like 1x2 or something
04:18<andythenorth>but it's completely *not* how current layout code works :o
04:18<planetmaker>that's why I proposed a "new layout" callback - or however that may work :-)
04:19<andythenorth>would be easier to just close and reopen
04:19*planetmaker adds that to the list of grf features :-)
04:19<andythenorth>which is more plausible
04:19<planetmaker>andythenorth: that generates news messages
04:19<planetmaker>and I don't find it more plausible ;-)
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04:20<andythenorth>code wise? check if new layout fits. If yes, close industry, rebuild industry
04:20<planetmaker>why do you find it more plausible?
04:20<andythenorth>it's one of the few bits of ottd where I'm familiar with the source
04:20<planetmaker>yes, implementation-wise I imagine it that way
04:20<planetmaker>just that everything else is kept
04:20<planetmaker>no re-random, no reset of stockpiles etc
04:21<andythenorth>copy properties to new industry
04:21<planetmaker>so "just" change layout
04:21<planetmaker>that might work
04:21<planetmaker>though we really don't found it newly, thus don't want to announce it as "new industry"
04:21<andythenorth>suppress the message
04:21<andythenorth>expansion is something I thought about a lot. I'm not sure what it really adds to gameplay though
04:22<planetmaker>and that's where we then are at "new layout" :-)
04:22<planetmaker>which shares a lot o code with "new industry" - but not everything
04:22<Alberth>andythenorth: it is probably more than just suppressing the message
04:22<andythenorth>'close and rebuild' also solves the 'replace this industry with a different one' case
04:23<planetmaker>andythenorth: it doesn't, if subsequent "can place there" checks fail
04:23<planetmaker>e.g. due to mutual distance restrictions or so
04:23<andythenorth>that would have to run before closure
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04:24<planetmaker>You got a point with the substitution by another industry
04:24<Terkhen>good morning
04:25*Alberth imagines: every ten year we replace every industry by a random different one
04:25<yorick>ew
04:25<Alberth>*years
04:26<yorick>then you build a station, and your industry has changed
04:26<yorick>(factory -> coal mine)
04:26<Alberth>and your trains are all wrong
04:26<yorick>unless you have conditional orders
04:26<Terkhen>that's really evil :)
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04:27<planetmaker>lol, make for a nice challange :-P
04:27<andythenorth>the real case was something like quarry -> landfill
04:27<planetmaker>andythenorth: can't you do that already?
04:27<andythenorth>nope
04:27<andythenorth>not easily
04:27<planetmaker>Everything except the name?
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04:27<andythenorth>depends on how many cargos you need to accept / produce
04:27<planetmaker>or can accepted cargo not be changed
04:28<planetmaker>ok
04:28<yorick>planetmaker: I think it can...see ISR
04:28<planetmaker>so there's the limit of 2 / 3 cargos
04:28<andythenorth>acceptance can be enabled / disabled
04:28<yorick>eh IR
04:28<planetmaker>yorick: ISR = stations
04:28<yorick>PIB
04:28<yorick>that's it
04:28<yorick>:-)
04:28<planetmaker>PBI :-P
04:28<andythenorth>think of the minimap. I want to find a landfill, but they are all named quarry
04:28<yorick>argh
04:29<planetmaker>have a coffee ;-)
04:29<andythenorth>or they could be 'quarry / landfill'. but which are they actually :P
04:29<andythenorth>umm
04:29<andythenorth>expansion...what gameplay effect does it actually have?
04:29<planetmaker>andythenorth: yes, but otherwise, assuming that amount of cargos is not a problem?
04:29<andythenorth>planetmaker: it's fine, just....low quality :o
04:29<planetmaker>:-)
04:30<andythenorth>expansion has *no* gameplay effect?
04:30<andythenorth>just eye candy?
04:30<planetmaker>you could make it one:
04:30<Terkhen>the tiles for expanding the industry would already be empty industrytiles or the industry would need to check if the required tiles are free?
04:30<planetmaker>high production only with high land usage
04:30<planetmaker>so it's in the hand of the newgrf author
04:31<planetmaker>Terkhen: the idea is possibly to get the latter
04:31<planetmaker>the first is already readily possible
04:31<planetmaker>(we're just phatasizing here right now)
04:31<planetmaker>arg *phantasizing
04:31<andythenorth>I can see a use for quarries etc
04:32<planetmaker>yes! :-)
04:32<planetmaker>andythenorth: you asked for animations with industries
04:32<planetmaker>ECS has quite a lot of moving vehicles in their industries
04:32<planetmaker>you might want to look there
04:32<Terkhen>hmmm... when I'm playing road/tram only, the industries are usually "jailed" into my network
04:32<planetmaker>and actually it looks quite nice there
04:32<andythenorth>I know how to do the animations, they are just bonkers
04:32<planetmaker>ok :-)
04:32<andythenorth>I have to define an awful lot of tile action 2s
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04:33<andythenorth>is expansion mostly just eye candy?
04:33<planetmaker>[10:30] <planetmaker> high production only with high land usage
04:33<Terkhen>I like the "high production only with high land usage" idea, specially for farms
04:33<planetmaker>[10:30] <planetmaker> so it's in the hand of the newgrf author
04:34<planetmaker>:-P
04:34<andythenorth>Terkhen: do you think routing would get hard / annoying with very large industries?
04:34<Terkhen>couldn't you fake this by making these industries more probable to appear near industries of its type that have an high rating?
04:35<andythenorth>no
04:35<planetmaker>:-) that's a nice idea
04:35<planetmaker>why not?
04:35<andythenorth>can't check properties at other industries (very annoying)
04:35<Terkhen>andythenorth: no, I just think I'd need to change the way I build my networks
04:35<planetmaker>ah, another feature request :-P
04:35<andythenorth>I've asked for that one n+1 times.
04:35<andythenorth>it's generally thought to be a bad idea
04:36<@Rubidium>that just makes industries extremely unlikely to be constructed
04:36<andythenorth>even though it's already possible to check the layout, and the var has 'bits reserved for future use' :P
04:36<andythenorth>I'm going to implement clustering in FIRS anyway for farms etc
04:37<andythenorth>I know how to handle it
04:37<@Rubidium>and checking other industries means callbacks get considerably more time consuming
04:37<andythenorth>I can see how it could be abused and become insanely cpu intensive
04:38<@Rubidium>just look at the insane time required to build a full set of ECS industries
04:38<andythenorth>that's not the abuse I was thinking of
04:39<andythenorth>if standard graphics action 2 always used var 68....that could be bad
04:39<andythenorth>especially if multiple var 68 calls were in the chain
04:39<andythenorth>"every time I draw graphics look up 1 gazillion things at other industries" :P
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04:46*andythenorth wonders if the fields patch by frosch123 allows tiles to write to industry storage....
04:46<andythenorth>it can access many industry vars so probably
04:47<andythenorth>Terkhen: if the fields patch from frosch123 was finished....I think farm production could depend on industry 'size'
04:49<Terkhen>hmm... it is a good idea, but (standard) farm fields take up a lot of space in the map: it would be too hard to build without reducing the farm production
04:50<andythenorth>it's a better route than filling the map with large blocks of tiles that can't be built over
04:50<Terkhen>indeed
04:50<Terkhen>I just think you should use smaller fields (2x2 maybe)
04:51<planetmaker>you think?
04:51<andythenorth>I am looking at a farm that has >300 tiles of fields. If each contributed 5t production *on top* of default production...you would have to build over a lot of them to cut production significantly
04:51<planetmaker>they're small compared to the buildings
04:51<planetmaker>the default field sizes IMHO match the game quite well
04:53<andythenorth>I think the 'fields' patch would also be the best way to handle 'expansion'
04:53<andythenorth>as long as it's ok to overbuild industry buildings :P
04:54<andythenorth>http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/texts/farmtiles.txt
04:55<planetmaker>actually... yeah, why not :-)
04:55<planetmaker>overbuilding buildings. Can be done
04:56<andythenorth>http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/diffs/customisablefarmtiles.diff
04:57<andythenorth>work in progress
04:57<andythenorth>causes the game to go....'boom'
04:57<planetmaker>yeah, I know :-)
04:58<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/fields_2.png
04:59<planetmaker>loool :-)
05:03<planetmaker>I need a pointer on how to ensure that the bounding box for a string gets adopted properly, if the string changes
05:03<planetmaker>or alternatively: how I make the bounding box such that it matches the maximum string size (it accepts two numerical parameters)
05:06<planetmaker>I can hack in a fixed string when calculating the bounding box. But that might be... sub-optimal...
05:06<Alberth>call GetStringBoundingBox() with two sufficiently large (in pixels) numerical parameters
05:06<planetmaker>is there any language which uses non-arabic numbers?
05:06<__ln__>arabic
05:06<yorick>chinese
05:06<yorick>japanese
05:06<yorick>korean
05:06<planetmaker>yes, in principle. But ingame :-)
05:06<yorick>greek too?
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05:10<planetmaker>hm... giving the max. numbers is too easy, I guess. And it even works :-)
05:12<yorick>I think a literal nfo sprite thingy would be nice for nml
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05:15<yorick>as in nfo { 00 00 01 01 XX XX 12 FD }
05:16<andythenorth>works for me
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05:58<planetmaker>http://wiki.openttd.org/GUI_re-arrangement <-- I added here a draft of how options / settings / preferences / ... could be re-distributed to the different windows
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05:59<andythenorth>planetmaker: regarding general stores....you would prefer players to be able to build them adjacent?
05:59<planetmaker>yes
05:59<andythenorth>hmm
06:00<andythenorth>it's possible. but it's more work than just setting prop 16 :P
06:00<planetmaker>I know :-P
06:00<andythenorth>if you do the work....I'll include it :P
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06:00<planetmaker>:-P
06:00<andythenorth>there is already a stub for location-based restrictions
06:00<planetmaker>not being able to get the map one wants leaves one frustrated
06:01<planetmaker>restrictions for the game: fine
06:01<planetmaker>restrictions for the player: not so fine
06:01<planetmaker>if they build something they usually know exactly where they want it
06:02<planetmaker>it should just be an additional action2 call, shouldn't it?
06:02<planetmaker>when deciding placement?
06:02<andythenorth>we need something in trunk first....let me see
06:02<andythenorth>we need this
06:02<andythenorth>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/3822
06:03<planetmaker>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=VarAction2Industries#Industry_founder_information_A7_ <-- not yet in for OpenTTD?
06:03<planetmaker>hm
06:03<planetmaker>ok, forgot about that not being yet available
06:03<andythenorth>it needs to be available during the location cb
06:03<andythenorth>the patch works
06:03<andythenorth>it just needs a dev to commit it :)
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06:03<planetmaker>:-)
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06:07<andythenorth>which is most generic:
06:07<andythenorth>Filling Station / Gas Station / Petrol Station / Fuel Station
06:07<andythenorth>?
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06:08<andythenorth>Lego calls them Service Stations (and they sell internationally)
06:09<andythenorth>or Garage
06:09<|Jeroen|>Gas station
06:10<andythenorth>|Jeroen|: which side of the atlantic are you on?
06:12<|Jeroen|>im in belgium
06:13<andythenorth>wikipedia thinks they are most commonly Filling Stations
06:14<planetmaker>andythenorth: gas station = AE, petrol station = BE
06:14<planetmaker>that's what I learnt
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06:14<andythenorth>and your preference? as I am about to add files to FIRS repo...
06:14<planetmaker>so use either. As the game uses BE, I'd use petrol station
06:15<andythenorth>hmm
06:15<andythenorth>my game has 'color' not 'colour'
06:15<planetmaker>where?
06:15<planetmaker>that's a bug IMHO
06:15*andythenorth changes language settings back to UK English
06:15<planetmaker>there's a special AE translation
06:15<andythenorth>FIRS can support US English if it's defined?
06:15<planetmaker>sure
06:16<planetmaker>but then the user has to have AE selected
06:16<planetmaker>but the default should always be BE
06:16<andythenorth>hmm
06:16<planetmaker>that's the specs :-)
06:16<andythenorth>we have Aluminium not Aluminum so I guess FIRS is BE
06:17<planetmaker>it *should*. Even if it was aluminum ;-)
06:17<planetmaker>aluminum is only AE
06:17<planetmaker>what are translations for otherwise, if you don't obey what they shall translate into?
06:18<andythenorth>funny thing is, I call them gas station as often as I call them petrol station :p
06:18<andythenorth>it's always diesel I need anyway
06:19<Alberth>you just haven't made up your mind on what they actually sell :)
06:21<andythenorth>adding another small town building brings up the fun question of map colours again :o
06:21<andythenorth>building / industry /s
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06:43<andythenorth>house tiles can't accept more than 3 cargos?
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06:47<planetmaker>nope
06:48<planetmaker>they're even more restricted actually
06:48<planetmaker>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Action0Houses#Passenger_0D_Mail_0E_and_Good_Food_Fizzy_drinks_0F_acceptance
06:48<planetmaker>though via callback flag you get basically what you get for industries
06:49<planetmaker>hm... too long ago. Seems you can just re-define the accepted cargos via prop. 1E: http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Action0Houses#Accepted_cargo_types_1E_
06:50<asilv>3/cargoes per tile, so multitile houses can accept more than 3
06:51<planetmaker>true
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06:52<planetmaker>so a big mall can accept like 12 cargos :-)
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07:02<andythenorth>so a 2 tile filling station could accept Fuel Oil, Food, Goods, PAX, Mail...
07:03<andythenorth>anything else?
07:03<andythenorth>chemicals? ENSP?
07:03<@Rubidium>sweets
07:03<@Rubidium>flowers
07:04<andythenorth>sweets are food
07:04<andythenorth>flowers we could add :P
07:05<@Rubidium>money, but only when passengers from a "robbery vehicle" are accepted
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>wtf is it with forums disabling search for guests?
07:10<FauxFaux>It's an expensive operation!
07:10<@Rubidium>probably their way of ensuring a steady stream of personal information to sell
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07:33<planetmaker>I'm trying to print a literal string wich I hoped would work by SetDParam(0, "some string");
07:33<planetmaker>obviously that doesn't work this way as the 2nd param is an uint64
07:34<@Rubidium>DParamStr
07:34*planetmaker goes looking :-)
07:34<@Rubidium>you need a {RAW_STRING} in english.txt for those strings though
07:36<planetmaker>that can be done and is fine
07:36<planetmaker>thanks :-)
07:37<Ammler>joining clients are already counted as active_clients, is that intended?
07:38<@Rubidium>they are?
07:39<@Rubidium>only when their status is STATUS_ACTIVE
07:39<Ammler>it does unpause the server when they join
07:39<Ammler>so a slow client does unpause the server until it disconnects
07:39<Ammler>or moved to specs
07:40*andythenorth wonders if Gas Stations need to be road-aware?
07:40<@Rubidium>Ammler: I have clue what could even explain that behaviour
07:42<andythenorth>hmm
07:42<andythenorth>there's no way to place a road tile when placing an industry. So gas station entrances won't connect to road tiles unless the player connects them :o
07:45<Ammler>andythenorth: shouldn't that be a house anyway?
07:46<andythenorth>no
07:46<andythenorth>well maybe. Go 'vote' in the FIRS thread if you wish :)
07:47<Ammler>what is the difference?
07:47<andythenorth>it comes down to: would you rather be able to bulldoze or construct?
07:49<planetmaker>hm... alignment of strings is a bitch :S
---Logclosed Sun May 23 07:56:05 2010
---Logopened Sun May 23 08:47:25 2010
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08:55<reven123>question: how do i convert grf to tar?
08:55<@Rubidium>you don't need to
08:56<reven123>but in openttd v1.0 my new grf menu cant find files unless they are tar formats
08:56<@Rubidium>then don't put it in the content download, but data directory
08:57<reven123>its in the data dir
08:57<reven123>ill try again
08:58<reven123>nope
08:59<@Rubidium>then you're doing something wrong (tm)
08:59<@Rubidium>or in other words: it works for me
08:59<reven123>it cant see grf files for some reason
08:59<+glx>missing action 8 ?
08:59<reven123>no its not about the coding
09:00<reven123>i load new grfs from the gui inside openttd
09:00<reven123>but the gui cant see grf files for some reason. only tar files
09:01<reven123>like its only searching for tar files withouth givig me options to change that
09:01<@Rubidium>it isn't
09:01<reven123>what version are you running rub*?
09:01<+glx>it searches in all locations
09:01<+glx>in tar and not tar
09:01<planetmaker>:-D reven123 the question should be vice versa
09:01<@Rubidium>anything from 0.7.0 to recent trunk
09:01<reven123>i think i have a different version then you then
09:02<reven123>or maybe im just a noob
09:02<reven123>noob version 1.0
09:02<reven123>how do i convert noob to tar?
09:02<planetmaker>by running tar
09:02<reven123>no seriously
09:02<planetmaker>it's a archiving programme
09:03<planetmaker>seriously
09:03<reven123>did that
09:03<SmatZ>nicknames matching mask "*123" should be reserved for frochs
09:03<reven123>tar didnt want to archive grf files
09:03<planetmaker>^ :-D
09:03<SmatZ>frosch, even
09:03<planetmaker>reven123: tar packs *everything*
09:03<planetmaker>not rar
09:03<planetmaker>_t_ar
09:03<@Rubidium>14:59 <@Rubidium> then you're doing something wrong (tm)
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09:04<reven123>whats a frosch
09:04<planetmaker>If I did it wrong I could probably even tar the device file for my keyboard
09:04<planetmaker>@seen frosch123
09:04<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 15 hours, 13 minutes, and 20 seconds ago: <frosch123> night
09:05<@Rubidium>anyhow, to answer the first question... you make tars with a tool called tar
09:05<@Rubidium>which is installed by default in all but one major OS
09:05<reven123>win 7 64 bit?
09:06<planetmaker>windows is the one which doesn't know it by default
09:06<reven123>f..
09:06<+glx>but 7zip can solve that
09:06<reven123>go on
09:06<planetmaker>just use 7zip to get your tar.
09:06<+glx>7zip is the only archive tool needed for windows (it handles every format)
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09:07<reven123>excellent
09:07<reven123>downloading it now
09:08<+glx>there's even a 64bit version
09:09<planetmaker>hm... the blitter should become a GUI option :-)
09:10<@Rubidium>changing the blitter in-game is far from trivial; it's like changing the video backend in-game
09:10<planetmaker>I thought about the same place as base set selection
09:10<planetmaker>but currently it's not user-friendly to use or not use 32bpp sprites
09:11<@Rubidium>planetmaker: that doesn't require reloading the video backend
09:11<planetmaker>how do I switch that w/o changing blitter?
09:11<@Rubidium>you can't (at the moment)
09:12<reven123>niiice
09:12<reven123>7zip did the job in 1 sec
09:12<reven123>everything works perfectly
09:12<reven123>so far
09:12<planetmaker>ok. Then... switching 32bpp / 8bpp is what I really want / need :-)
09:12<reven123>tx a lot glx
09:13<planetmaker>as it's like switching grfs, but w/o trouble wrt the game state
09:13<+glx>but grf are not forced to be in a tar
09:13<planetmaker>hm... and I could steal straw bales from 32bpp...
09:14<Ammler>hehe :-)
09:14<planetmaker>and I actually like the ore mine more :-)
09:15<Ammler>you can't legally steal there I fear, they don't use any license
09:15<planetmaker>and the availability of the trunk-compatible 32bpp pack actually made me try it ingame :-)
09:15<planetmaker>yeah, that's true, I fear, too
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09:15<planetmaker>they should quickly change to gpl ;-)
09:16<@Rubidium>Ammler: there not being a license makes it easier to steal (in the legal sense of the word)
09:16<Ammler>steal has another meaning in the ttd world :-P
09:17<planetmaker>hehe
09:17<Ammler>as some steal goods from others on a MP game
09:17<@Rubidium>that's not stealing, but competition
09:18<planetmaker>tell that some players :-)
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10:25<planetmaker>http://img.openttdcoop.org/images/bildsctpt.png <-- should adding the extra widget for the darker inset be one of the first patches or should that rather be a later one (so that the window re-work works without that newly re-coloured inset widget, or doesn't it matter at all?
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10:32<Alberth>it should be near of be part of a patch that changes the window structure imho. When exactly it happens is not very important
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10:34<planetmaker>ok... Then I guess I'll have that the first of my patch queue. It avoids subsequent changes to widget types
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10:53<CIA-2>OpenTTD: alberth * r19886 /trunk/src/ (window.cpp window_gui.h): -Add [FS#3705]: Perform window callback during mouse dragging for the purpose of highlighting the destination (sbr).
10:59<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r19887 /trunk/bin/ai/regression/regression.txt: -Fix (r19881): Update regression.
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11:02<CIA-2>OpenTTD: alberth * r19888 /trunk/src/ (depot_gui.cpp train_gui.cpp vehicle_gui.h): -Add [FS#3705]: Add highlighting of drag destination in depot gui (sbr).
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11:06<CIA-2>OpenTTD: alberth * r19889 /trunk/src/order_gui.cpp: -Add [FS#3705]: Add drag destination highlighting to order gui (sbr).
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11:17<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r19890 /trunk/src/town_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Use real spritewidths for drawing town authority window.
11:26<planetmaker>[17:25] <snc> Message: Assertion failed at line 80 of /home/openttd/svn-public/src/pbs.cpp: (GetTileTrackStatus(tile, TRANSPORT_RAIL, 0) & TrackToTrackBits(t)) != 0
11:26<snc>we removed pbs signals of a two-way roro
11:26<planetmaker>http://ps.openttdcoop.org/public/save/autosave/autosave144.sav <-- last autosave
11:27<planetmaker>r19874
11:27<SmatZ>planetmaker: do you have crash.sav too?
11:28<planetmaker>possibly on the server
11:28<SmatZ>oh
11:28<SmatZ>it crashes on its own :)
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11:28<SmatZ>planetmaker: 143.sav is broken too...
11:30<SmatZ>planetmaker: 142.sav is OK
11:30<planetmaker>ok :-)
11:30<SmatZ>planetmaker: will you open a bugreport?
11:31<planetmaker>I can do so, yes
11:31<planetmaker>but no crash.sav there or needed?
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11:31<SmatZ>planetmaker: it is reproducible from the save... maybe it would be nice to upload last fine save (142) too
11:32<planetmaker>will do
11:32-!-mode/#openttd [+o orudge] by ChanServ
11:32<@Rubidium>by any change have logged the commands?
11:32<Ammler>yes, they are
11:33<planetmaker>yes, they are
11:33<SmatZ>it seems to have something to do with crashed train
11:33-!-ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:33<Ammler>but not desyncish
11:33<SmatZ>(gdb) frame 5
11:33<SmatZ>#5 HandleCrashedTrain (v=<value optimized out>, mode=<value optimized out>) at /home/smatz/openttd/rev/src/train_cmd.cpp:3586
11:33<planetmaker>I'll try to gather all info
11:33*Mazur applauds.
11:34<@Rubidium>maybe, but... if actions are needed to get into the crashing state, the actions (i.e. command log) would be quite useful
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11:47<planetmaker>Rubidium: SmatZ: all info I have are in FS3856
11:48<planetmaker>Older savegames and logs are available, if needed
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11:49<SmatZ>thanks :)
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11:54<Yexo>good evening
11:55<Alberth>evening
11:55<planetmaker>hello Yexo
11:55<Yexo>hello Alberth and planetmaker
11:56<planetmaker>SmatZ: Rubidium I'm surprised about that the game uses nutracks-r8
11:56<planetmaker>That's not intended actually... maybe the cause for the assertion is in that (early) version of the newgrf
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12:01<andythenorth>if I had a bigger terminal window, I'd be able to see FIRS compile errors without scrolling :P
12:02*andythenorth is confused about grep
12:02<andythenorth>make install | grep warning will show the line "Warning on sprite 1192 (level 1)."
12:02<andythenorth>but make install | grep error won't show "make: [firs.nfo] Error 3 (ignored)"
12:03<Yexo>grep is case sensitive by default
12:03<Yexo>ie "error" != "Error"
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12:11<andythenorth>still doesn't find it
12:11<andythenorth>:o
12:12<andythenorth>hmm
12:12<andythenorth>judging by aerial photos a gas station should be up to 2x2 tiles compared to house tiles
12:12<andythenorth>seems a bit large though
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12:16<andythenorth>TTRS has fuel pump icons for petrol stations in transparent mode :o
12:17<andythenorth>I like it :o
12:17<frosch123>so, it anyone draw a broken coin yet?
12:17<frosch123>s/it/did/
12:18<andythenorth>not me
12:19<andythenorth>I still think only show an icon if the information is useful - i.e. "This vehicle makes a loss"
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12:21<frosch123>showing a greyed icon is better than showing no icon. that makes it obvious that the icon is disabled, and the user is not wondering why it is missing
12:21<andythenorth>waste of pixels in my view :D
12:22<andythenorth>but you could be correct
12:22<frosch123>"intentional greyed" vs. "somehow missing" :)
12:23<frosch123>resp. noob vs. advanced user
12:24<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/icon_example.png
12:25<andythenorth>does that require a grey 'everything is ok' icon?
12:25<frosch123>no, there is an obvious column
12:25<andythenorth>I was thinking lack of columnation might be part of the problem :)
12:26<andythenorth>I'm a bad tester - I don't use the icons at all. I look for negative profits using the actual numbers....
12:26<andythenorth>...I rely on the red which is no help for r/g colour blind
12:27<planetmaker>andythenorth: and you could even borrow them from TTRS :-)
12:27<planetmaker>(the fuel pump icons)
12:27<andythenorth>do you like them?
12:27<planetmaker>yes
12:27<planetmaker>a lot
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12:28<andythenorth>if used for one industry, does that imply using them for all industries (and cargos)
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12:28<planetmaker>hehe :-)
12:28<planetmaker>it doesn't. Though it might make sense and would be nice
12:29<andythenorth>it would be hard to achieve I think
12:29<planetmaker>But given the amount... ^
12:29<andythenorth>it would also mean a lot more ground sprites :P
12:29<planetmaker>I basically like it with TTRS a lot as it's the only easy way to find them
12:29<andythenorth>it's a hack on something that the game ought to provide
12:29<planetmaker>it does make sense therefore with industries which are likely to be in a town.
12:29<planetmaker>Like bakery, bank etc
12:29<planetmaker>The small ones which don't stand out
12:30<andythenorth>the game should have an overlay of sprites showing acceptance / production per tile
12:31<andythenorth>hmmm
12:32<andythenorth>coin icon with an exclamation mark? instead of broken
12:32<andythenorth>bank note - on fire (use the fire cycle!)
12:33<andythenorth>just use a red disc, but with concentric rings using the fire cycle or the crossing cycle
12:34<andythenorth>r/g colour blind should still be able to discern contrast changes.
12:34<andythenorth>doesn't work in pause mode though :(
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12:46*andythenorth ponders icons some more
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r19891 /trunk/src/lang/ (10 files): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: catalan - 6 changes by arnau
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: croatian - 2 changes by VoyagerOne
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
13:46<CIA-2>OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by glx
13:46<CIA-2>OpenTTD: italian - 7 changes by lorenzodv
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14:14<@Rubidium>andythenorth: the difference between stdout and stderr (grep only "works" on stdout)
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14:15<andythenorth>ah ha thanks
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14:16<Wasila>Herro
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15:01*Mazur is away: I'm busy
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15:16<planetmaker>meh... no good sign, if grfcodec issues an "Abort trap" upon de-coding a newgrf, eh?
15:16<planetmaker>doh... nvm me
15:23<Wasila>lolwut
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15:26<planetmaker>@calc 4448 - 510
15:26<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 3938
15:26<planetmaker>holy handgrenade. 3938 sprites for the ECS wood vector forest alone...!
15:27<Noldo>wwhat?
15:28<planetmaker>@calc 9717 - 998
15:28<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 8719
15:28<planetmaker>lines of NFO code for a single industry...
15:29<planetmaker>typo
15:29<planetmaker>@calc 7917-998
15:29<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 6919
15:29<planetmaker>still A LOT
15:33<andythenorth>does it do a lot of tile / slope detection?
15:33<Guest1086>3617 without comments
15:34-!-Guest1086 is now known as George
15:34<George><andythenorth> does it do a lot of tile / slope detection? Yes
15:34-!-George is now known as Guest1234
15:35<Guest1234>Including variants and production code
15:35<Muxy>@seen beerface
15:35<@DorpsGek>Muxy: beerface was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 0 days, 0 hours, 6 minutes, and 7 seconds ago: <beerface> planetmaker: what do you mean hacked servers?
15:36-!-Guest1234 is now known as George
15:36<planetmaker>hello George
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15:39<George>3462 sprites of layout code
15:40<George>For all 4 landscapes including snow covered version
15:40<planetmaker>that's frigging amazing :-)
15:40<planetmaker>with like 7 layouts or so, if I got it right
15:40<planetmaker>each
15:41<planetmaker>I just replied in forums: do you have the real sprites at hand? My grfcodec only works for the code
15:41<planetmaker>It writes invalid image files
15:41<George>BTW, there is a feature with trees in temperate, because it uses sub-arctic trees instead to keep TTDPATCH compatibility
15:42<planetmaker>oh :-)
15:42<planetmaker>So it basically re-uses the trees which are there and "just" arranges it into the industry?
15:43<George>planetmaker: real sprites at hand? - what sprites? It uses trees from TRG1R (default trees)
15:43<planetmaker>oh, ok. And the house?
15:43<George>planetmaker: arranges it into the industry? Yes
15:43<George>The house are the sprites. Do you need a psd file?
15:44<planetmaker>would be nice :-)
15:46<planetmaker>and the pile of cut trees would be nice, too :-)
15:46<planetmaker>When I browsed the game I initially wondered whether only the house is the industry... :-)
15:47<George>http://george.zernebok.net/temp/ForestersHouse.psd
15:48<George>planetmaker: of cut trees - I suppose I do not have them in PSD, i think they were drawn inside the PCX
15:49<planetmaker>well, that's fine for me, too :-)
15:49<planetmaker>But they certainly add to the flair
15:49<George>If you mean logs - they are also game defaults
15:50<George>sprites 2071 and 2071
15:50<George>2070
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15:53<planetmaker>hm... taken from the saw mill?
15:54<planetmaker>hm, is it me or the psd file only the arctic version?
15:55<planetmaker>or am I too stupid to see the other layers?
15:59<planetmaker>what I also like a lot are those industries with the animated vehicles :-)
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16:13<George>planetmaker: hm... taken from the saw mill? Yes
16:14<planetmaker>yeah, I see that now :-)
16:14<planetmaker>Quite a neat idea to re-arange existing things this way :-)
16:15<George>hm, is it me or the psd file only the arctic version? or am I too stupid to see the other layers? Snow is stored on the layers
16:17<planetmaker>thanks, I'll figure it out then
16:18<planetmaker>But a very nicely drawn and elaborately coded newgrf those vectors :-) Kudos!
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17:39<Nite_Owl>Hello all
17:40<SmatZ>hello Nite_Owl, greetings from the country which just won the world hockey championship :)
17:40<Nite_Owl>Hello SmatZ
17:40-!-ptr [~peter@c213-89-142-224.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Zzzzzz]
17:42<PeterT>SmatZ: not canada?!
17:43<SmatZ>PeterT: Canada wasn't even in final
17:43<PeterT>Canada is supposed to be good at hockey
17:44<SmatZ>well, yes
17:44<SmatZ>so is Russia and Czech republic :-p
17:44<PeterT>good job, Czech Republic
17:45<SmatZ>thanks :)
17:58<__ln__>has anyone else experienced an off-by-one error with Lost S06 episodes?
17:58<PeterT>what's an off-by-one error?
17:59<Nite_Owl>Maybe the smoke monster or the polar bear got a hold of the video files......
17:59<__ln__>PeterT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-by-one_error
18:00<PeterT>__ln__: I'm looking at that, but I didn't see how that relates to TV shows
18:00<PeterT>it says it's in programming or mathematical context
18:01<__ln__>Just finished watching "Episode 16" which must be Episode 15 according to IMDb description.
18:01<__ln__>Same for "Episode 15" vs. Episode 14.
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18:14<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19892 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#3856] (r19792): crash when trying to reserve 'in depot' track on clearing a crashed train
18:19<__ln__>a-ha, IMDb's numbering is misguided
18:22<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: basically it depends if you count the first episode as 1 or 2 episodes [since it's double length]
18:22<__ln__>yeah, that's the thing
18:22-!-Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
18:22<__ln__>however, ABC's official guide counts the first as two: http://abc.go.com/shows/lost/episode-guide
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>yes, most of the time double length episodes are counted as two
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18:23<Eddi|zuHause>but there are exceptions
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18:29<__ln__>they have a lot to explain in the finale
18:31<__ln__>and they've kind of promised an explanation
18:33<Terkhen>good night
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20:16<Jolteon>fail
20:17<Jolteon>silly thing didn't process it's message to move to the correct network, for some reason it joined here of it's own accord instead of the right network ;__;
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---Logclosed Mon May 24 00:00:00 2010