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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-05-24

---Logopened Mon May 24 00:00:00 2010
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03:10<PeterT>hello moiz
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03:16<moiz>how r u peter?
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03:20<moiz>anyone here?
03:24<planetmaker>g' morning folks
03:24<planetmaker>care to switch off the rain? I have to go to the bakery :S
03:25<planetmaker>but it's raining cats and dogs
03:25<Mazur>Not here.
03:25<Mazur>Sunny and warm.
03:25<moiz>guys i need some help
03:25<Mazur>You could go naked to the stores, here.
03:25<Mazur>Tell us about it, Moiz.
03:26<moiz>my problem is regarding congestion in big cities
03:26<planetmaker>Mazur: I could here, too. But it'd draw more attention than I'd like and it wouldn't be comfortably warm either
03:26<Mazur>use a laxative.
03:26<moiz>all the roads get blocked
03:26<moiz>due to so many road vehicles
03:26<planetmaker>build less
03:27<moiz>well the AI makes a lot of them
03:27<planetmaker>place stations and set orders more intelligently
03:27<planetmaker>and avoid the routes the AI blocks
03:27<moiz>how to set a route for RVs
03:27<moiz>there isnt waypoints for RVs
03:28<planetmaker>by placing stations and using them as waypoints
03:28<moiz>they travel by their own will
03:28<planetmaker>using the "go via" orders
03:28<planetmaker>they don't
03:28<moiz>thanx planet
03:28<moiz>i guess this will help
03:29<planetmaker>using one-way roads may sometimes help, too :-)
03:30<moiz>well i cant make town roads one way :/
03:30<planetmaker>maybe just making some single road tiles one-way so that vehicles don't go there the other direction
03:30<planetmaker>you can't?
03:30<planetmaker>I bet you can. You might need to allow building on town roads
03:30<planetmaker>It's somewhere in the adv. settings
03:31<moiz>i thought it only enables you to build buss bays
03:31<moiz>well if we assign one way to a road
03:31<moiz>only my vehicles will follow that order?
03:31<moiz>AI vehicles wont?
03:31<planetmaker>it's a one-way road then. For everyone
03:31<moiz>well this can help i guess
03:32<planetmaker>it's not like one-way roads in my town need not be followed by people from other towns on visit here ;-)
03:32<moiz>but it will alter the AI routes too
03:33<moiz>so i was wondering... will they follow that or not..
03:34<moiz>the prob i face is this that
03:34<moiz>AI makes a lot of vehicles
03:35<moiz>and there is like of line 50 vehicles being created
03:35<moiz>blocking all the ways
03:35<planetmaker>yeah. Just don't use RV where the AI uses them in this number
03:35<planetmaker>there are more profitable routes, if you use trains anyway
03:36<moiz>i can limit the no of vehicles AI use
03:36<moiz>because i fail to manage so much road traffic :(
03:37<planetmaker>well, but RV is what AIs are best at. So if you want some competition, let them build some RV
03:37<planetmaker>please avoid these silly pointless "." lines
03:38<__ln__>why the hell did you type those anyway?
03:38<moiz>so.. can i limit the no of bus bays a person can built in a city
03:38<moiz>well im fond of it
03:38<planetmaker>you can't limit the amout of stations per city
03:38<moiz>when ever i end my statement.. i used it as a breaker
03:39<planetmaker>That's why one can finish sentences with a ".".
03:39<moiz>so that when the next one responds.. i can distinguisg the reply easily
03:39<planetmaker>use a proper IRC client to distinguish different people
03:39<planetmaker>but don't force that onto others who do
03:40<moiz>well actually im using irc for the first time
03:40<moiz>so dun know its rules and regulations
03:40<planetmaker>you survived the first step well: you had patience. You didn't expect a reply in 2 minutes ;-)
03:41<planetmaker>@topic -1
03:41<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: topic [<channel>]
03:41<planetmaker>@topic get -1
03:41<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Don't ask to ask, just ask
03:41<planetmaker>^ also quite important
03:41<planetmaker>the people can answer if they know and have time
03:42<planetmaker>asking whether <someone> knows <something> about <something else> is... mostly not giving you replies you might expect
03:42<moiz>and can i limit the no of buss and loading stations one can make in a specifin city.. a question..
03:42<planetmaker>[09:38] <planetmaker> you can't limit the amout of stations per city
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03:43<moiz>amount of stations per city per player... what about it?
03:43<moiz>ohh sorry
03:43<planetmaker>note: I didn't say that you 'violated' the rule 'don't ask to ask'. It was rather an explanation what will not work
03:43<moiz>i read it as you can*
03:44<moiz>thankyou planet
03:44<moiz>for ur time
03:45<planetmaker>rain stopped. I'm off to the bakery
03:45<moiz>nice talking to you
03:45<moiz>take cares
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04:05<Terkhen>good morning
04:05<planetmaker>morning Terkhen
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05:53<Ammler>someone a explaination for :-)
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05:58<Alberth>cat test | xxd ; ssh -qt localhost cat test > xxd
05:59<Alberth>oh | xxd at the end
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06:04<moiz>how are you?
06:05<Alberth>too busy, last free day this week, and too many things to do
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06:09<moiz>i wanted to ask if you can use traffic signals GRF with openttd 1.0.1
06:10<@peter1138>nope, it's for a patch
06:11<moiz>cant we patch openttd 1.0.1 to include it?
06:11<Alberth>moiz: see, this works much better, I would not have known that answer.
06:12<moiz>thanx alberth
06:12<Alberth>traffic signals is somewhere in the development forum?
06:12<moiz>yess.. openttd development
06:13<moiz>traffic lights
06:15<Alberth>you can build your own patched version, but it is not 1.0.1 any more then
06:17<Alberth>do you have an URL to the thread?
06:18<@peter1138>Ammler, new unix2dos tool? :p
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06:19<moiz>thats the thread
06:19<moiz>and i dun know how to patch.. :$
06:19<moiz>i just know how to install GRFs
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06:20<Ammler>I need to quote the ssh command
06:20<Ammler>or no -t
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06:22<Alberth>moiz: in the first post, at the top, there is a link to the patch and to a win32 binary.
06:22<Alberth>if you are using windows, that would be an option
06:23<Alberth>moiz: otherwise, first install a c++ compiler, learn how to get and compile a program, then learn to patch
06:24<@peter1138>Ammler, why would you add -t anyway?
06:24<Ammler>yes, useless
06:24<moiz>thanx alberth
06:24<Ammler>I thought, that is needed to execute commands like that
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06:25<@peter1138>-q isn't needed either...
06:25<Ammler>something I once did and then automatically used always...
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13:34<Terkhen>hi fjb
13:35<PeterT>hey fjb
13:40<__ln__>crap, flights have become even more expensive.
13:43<Terkhen>planetmaker, andythenorth: how are you dealing with the create scenario and play from heightmap windows in the GUI rework?
13:44<planetmaker>Terkhen: just use the very same as for new game
13:45<planetmaker>with a small conditional part of the window which shows the map name + size + rotation if a map is selected
13:46<Terkhen>also for creating flat land at the SE, I guess
13:47<planetmaker>Yes, I'd use the very same
13:47<planetmaker>makes for higher re-recognition of things
13:47<planetmaker>only thing I'm not sure about is the load scenario thingy
13:47<Terkhen> <-- I was thinking about this old patch
13:48<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r19893 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files): (log message trimmed)
13:48<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:48<CIA-2>OpenTTD: danish - 22 changes by silentStatic
13:48<CIA-2>OpenTTD: indonesian - 4 changes by prof
13:48<CIA-2>OpenTTD: italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
13:48<CIA-2>OpenTTD: polish - 4 changes by silver_777
13:48<CIA-2>OpenTTD: romanian - 6 changes by tonny
13:48<planetmaker> <-- that's what currently exists
13:48<Terkhen>I have tried to clone it but my internet is being stupid today :)
13:49<planetmaker>I haven't actually touched that window. But it should / could link to the same
13:49<planetmaker>It'd need only adding the flatland height widgets
13:49<planetmaker>and the flatland widget
13:50<planetmaker>It should not be a big thing. It'd just need adding those buttons and a few more conditionals
13:50<Terkhen>the flat land widget could disable all widgets that are not used in that case, to make things more clear (clicking on generate would create the flat scenario)
13:50<planetmaker>One thing I fear about though: It's getting a hell of a bloated window, if tabs are truely added
13:51<planetmaker>Terkhen: yeah... or just add a new tab :-)
13:51<planetmaker>which shows only the scenario editor things. But I guess just disabling those is in this case more logical
13:55<planetmaker> <-- Like exchange those two lines with "variety distribution" and "smoothness" by something else is what I do
13:56<Terkhen>for code bloatness, you could define the contents of each tab as different windows and make them work together somehow... but that would be very confusing
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13:57<planetmaker> <-- same with heightmap selected
13:57<planetmaker>Terkhen: yeah, somehow
13:58<planetmaker>As I see it Alberth used some higher-order abstraction for the three window parts of the newgrf window
13:58<planetmaker>Such approach might make sense, too. Though IMHO it looks codewise like stretching the window system a bit beyond what it was designed to ;-)
13:59<Alberth>basically moving as much code out of the window as possible into the list handling classes, so re-use in a different window was easier
14:00<planetmaker>Well, point is, that the current window system works quite well for that as it's now.
14:01<planetmaker>One just has to document well which parts are responsible for which :-)
14:04<planetmaker>Terkhen: if you feel like playing around with this gui restructuring, too, feel free to use that repo (once checkout works for you)
14:04<Alberth>you could consider a class for each tab, and do a callback from the window based on a range of widget numbers or so
14:04<planetmaker>it's a multi-head repo with several heads
14:05<Alberth>does a mult-head repo with one head even exist? :p
14:05<planetmaker>with one visible: yes
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14:06<planetmaker>the purpose of that repo is to get several things tested out so that the single nicely small enough to be commited patches can be somewhat extracted from it
14:06<planetmaker>in a separate mq repository
14:07<planetmaker>so playfield vs. production so-to-speak ;-)
14:07<planetmaker>in other words: feel free to give your gui ideas a try there
14:07<planetmaker>and don't worry about new heads there
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14:08<planetmaker>but then you certainly have your own repos for that :-)
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14:36<Alberth>planetmaker: basically, with the new newgrf gui tests, I introduced a function for each operation on the lists (which in normal windows lives as a blob of code in a OnClick() case), and moved those functions into the list manager classes.
14:43<planetmaker>thx. I shall have a closer look at that probably, too :-)
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14:49<Arie->Ok, so here's the case
14:50<Arie->I had a crash, however in 1.0.1-rc2 (just noticed i was using an old version)
14:50<Arie->i'm not able to reproduce the crash, even in 1.0.1-rc2
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>so do you have at least a crash.log and a crash.sav?
14:51<Arie->yes i have
14:51<Arie->but i've search through
14:51<Arie->and could not find a similar case
14:51<@Rubidium>and crash.dmp I hope
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>then upload them to
14:52<Arie->yes, those are there, i
14:52<Arie->'ll search through again to be sure
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15:03<Alberth>Arie-: by default the search excludes closed bugs, be sure to enable them being searched too
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15:13<Arie->did that
15:13<Arie->but searching for command.cpp + 666 does not give related resultsand
15:14<Arie->and the changelog from 1.0.1-rc2 -> 1.0.1 does not state a similar bug being killed
15:14<Arie-> Message: Assertion failed at line 666 of ..\src\command.cpp: cmd_id == CMD_COMPANY_CTRL || old_company == _current_company
15:14<Arie->^^ that was the message
15:14<Arie->bug report almost finished
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15:16<Terkhen>hi andythenorth
15:18<PeterT>@seen Dalestan
15:18<@DorpsGek>PeterT: Dalestan was last seen in #openttd 9 weeks, 1 day, 2 hours, 38 minutes, and 31 seconds ago: <DaleStan> <PeterT> Why would one have info version 5 instead of info version 7? <-- because you didn't use any Info version 6 or 7 features, and there was no header telling NFORenum to use any particular version.
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15:21<Alberth>PeterT: that means absolutely nothing. It is just the last time he spoke here. It has little relation to being present, especially for people saying very little here
15:21<PeterT>That, in addition to the fact that he's not here now
15:22<Alberth>not visibly here, at least
15:22<Alberth>so if you know that, why ask dorpsgek?
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15:30<OwenS>It makes me wonder what NewGRF and NFORenum's bus factors are
15:31<Arie->Bug report @ FS#3857
15:31<Arie->ll check there again tomorrow might there be other questions
15:31<Arie->(this is an online IRC applet) ;)
15:31<PeterT>see ya
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15:32<Alberth>what is a bus factor?
15:33<OwenS>Alberth: The number of people that must go missing ("be hit by a bus") before something becomes unmaintainable
15:33<OwenS>Or, in other words, how many people know the NewGRF specs in all their intricacies
15:35<OwenS>frosch: Fractional people are allowed, I suppose :p
15:35<Alberth>depends on how detailed you look, but close to 0 most likely, it is a large system built by many people over a long span of time
15:36<Alberth>I don't see how a program like NFORenum is involved in the specs though
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15:37<Alberth>On the other hand, the source code that implements the specs is freely available, so recovery of current implementation is easy
15:37<OwenS>Alberth: Its not. But it is used by the vast majority of GRFs
15:37<OwenS>And source code is notoriously difficult to read ;-)
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15:37<Alberth>any lanuage that defines the entire behavior of a spec is
15:38<OwenS>True. But source code tends to be more obtuse
15:39<Alberth>but it is executable, so you can throw a test case against it
15:40<frosch>reading the source code is easier than writing a testcase
15:41<OwenS>frosch: Even the TTDPatch source code? :p
15:42<OwenS>(Being as its assembly and all)
15:42<Lakie>Depending on where you read
15:42<Lakie>Some sections are fairly well commented
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15:42<frosch>i could answer several questions by reading ttdp source
15:42<Lakie>Others require common sense
15:42<Lakie>And some just avoid, arvs in ttdpatch = avoid like plague
15:43<Lakie>arvs code*
15:43<frosch>usually i crep for the callback id, and look what is done next
15:43<OsteHovel^PDA>Its technical posible to run openttd on a ARM architecture? (with correct lib's, compiler and stuff)
15:43<OwenS>OsteHovel^PDA: It has been done
15:43<OsteHovel^PDA>Ok ;)
15:44<OsteHovel^PDA>Someone got a version running on a "android"-based device?(like not using the jni interface)
15:44<OwenS>Theres even a very stripped down DS port...
15:45<OsteHovel^PDA>Ok :)
15:45<OsteHovel^PDA>I tried before using some "unofficial" compiler & libraries...
15:46<OsteHovel^PDA>I did indeed got openttd compilled (dedicated server build), but never got it running on the device
15:46<+glx>put on the device wiht required files?
15:47<@Rubidium>Debian's able to build ARM binaries (whether they are actually used in unknown to me); Maemo (which is a mobile phone derivative of Debian) has an OpenTTD port that appears to be used and Gentoo has a bug report about someone asking to ask ARM support as it works for that person
15:47<OsteHovel^PDA>I did indeed copy with some libs no idea if it was all of them...
15:47<OsteHovel^PDA>I was thinking of trying again
15:47<OsteHovel^PDA>This time using the official ndk libraries from google (android)
15:48<+glx>I'm talking about graphics and sound files ;)
15:48<OsteHovel^PDA>Last time i tested those was not require in a dedicated-only build
15:48<+glx>dedicated builds need them too
15:48<OsteHovel^PDA>Do they?
15:48<+glx>graphics yes
15:49<OsteHovel^PDA>How does that work on one of my servers then...
15:49<+glx>just get opengfx
15:49<OsteHovel^PDA>Lol i think i know why now
15:49<OsteHovel^PDA>Maybe i put them in /usr-blablabla
15:49<OsteHovel^PDA>(Poor mee)
15:49<OsteHovel^PDA>Yaya gonna test using the libraries from google
15:49<OsteHovel^PDA>When i get time later this week
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16:12<PeterT>the 'English only' part of the topic has been taken out, is that intentional
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17:04<sailo>hey, someone here? Does anybody know a multiplayer server with active players?
17:05<sailo>there are lots of games running, but nowhere is anyone actively playing.
17:05<sailo>thats kinda sad.
17:05<PeterT>that's sorted by most active
17:06<sailo>ah, this overview is not available in the game, is it?
17:06<PeterT>well, you can sort by players in game
17:08<sailo>okay, thanks
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17:38<@Rubidium>how is DB with respect to refunds and such when an one-train-per-two-hour train is cancelled/delayed by more than 1:30 and you're missing a lot of connecting services abroad (that need reservation) because of that?
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17:47<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i don't know the specifics, but at least a partial refund, depending on how bad it is
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>situation has been significantly improved recently
17:47<@Rubidium>well, I'd be missing an overnight train, so definitely a lot
17:47<@Rubidium>unless I can take e.g. the TGV at their costs
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: be sure to get the train staff to sign a document that the train was left out...
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>if you complain loud enough, they might even pay you the TGV ticket
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17:51<Eddi|zuHause>i have heard of people getting paid a taxi ride from Erfurt to Halle
17:51<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: it would be from Munster(Westf) to Luxembourgh :)
17:51<@Rubidium>5 hours by (direct) train :)
17:52<@Rubidium>seems there's an indirect fallback route that might make me on time
17:52<@Rubidium>with two changes and no time to get dinner in Luxembourgh
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>waiting 5 minutes at the döner and eat on the train?
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>don't remember if there was a döner near luxemburg station
17:54<@Rubidium>oh, 45 minutes... that should be just enough :)
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>well, i hope you make it ;)
17:56<@Rubidium>not even sure I'm going to do it, just researching
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18:06<Terkhen>good night
18:06<@Rubidium>night Terkhen
18:07<Luukland>n_n ladies
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18:30<Nite_Owl>Hello all
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19:25-!-Netsplit <-> quits: PierreW, Goulp, KingJ, +michi_cc, luckz, lolman, ashb, dihedral, Terkhen, Prof_Frink, (+10 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them)
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19:36<PeterT>that netsplit essentially shows the number of europeans in this channel
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19:38<Eddi|zuHause>that is not very true...
19:38<+glx>indeed :)
19:38<PeterT>ret. and kinetic are euro servers, right?
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19:39<PeterT>and (usually) connects you to the nearest server
19:39<Eddi|zuHause>i'm on canadian server
19:40<+glx>I'm on Nuernberg server
19:40<Eddi|zuHause>and if the netsplit says "reticulum" and "kinetic", that means one of those is broken, not both
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19:40<+glx>just the link between them
19:40<PeterT>ah, ok
19:41<PeterT>i thought all servers were connected to the main serv. individually
19:41<PeterT>not one by one
19:41<Eddi|zuHause>it's a tree
19:41<+glx>and usually people on the other side of the split are still in the chan (and for them we are gone)
19:42<Eddi|zuHause>not necessarily a star
19:42<Eddi|zuHause>and not necessarily there needs to be a "main server"
19:42<Ammler>a snow flake :-)
19:43<Ammler>maybe a "services host"
19:44<Eddi|zuHause>maybe, but i think even these may be decentralised
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---Logclosed Tue May 25 00:00:01 2010