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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-05-25

---Logopened Tue May 25 00:00:01 2010
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02:29<Terkhen>good morning
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04:43<planetmaker> <-- seems theres quite some need for one, two officially stable AIs...
04:44<planetmaker>but how to tell people?
04:44<__ln__>don't ask, don't tell
04:44<__ln__>.. no, that was something else
04:46<borgfish>which of the AI's are stable ?
04:46<@Rubidium>DummyAI :)
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05:02<b_jonas>I installed openttd 1.0.1 and it seems it works! great!
05:02<b_jonas>the high framerate is a bit surprising after ttdpatch
05:04<@Rubidium>interesting, as OpenTTD's framerate should be slightly lower
05:04<@Rubidium>on the other hand, if it is noticable, you're probably using fast forward or something
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05:06<b_jonas>maybe it's not the real refresh rate, just some animations
05:06<b_jonas>but the train seemed to move really smooth
05:07<b_jonas>also note that I'm usually running ttdpatch in a slow emulator which makes it sometimes lag,
05:07<b_jonas>but I think it usually runs at full speed when there aren't too many graphics on the screen
05:07<@Rubidium>ah, okay, that explains :)
05:08<b_jonas>oh, maybe it's the emulator's vga refresh rate that's set to slow?
05:10<b_jonas>but it seems I've set that quite high
05:10<b_jonas>I dunno then
05:10<@Rubidium>emulating an x86 is not that fast :)
05:11<b_jonas>sure, but ttdpatch is an old game and cpus have become much faster since then
05:11<__ln__>ttdpatch is not a game
05:11<b_jonas>ttd+ttdpatch then
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05:13<@Rubidium>the main "problem" is memory access, which hasn't become as significantly faster as CPU have
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05:14<b_jonas>Rubidium: if memory access was the bottleneck, emulation would be slower by only a small factor than running natively
05:14<OwenS>B_joanas: emulators need memorysccesses for code too
05:15<b_jonas>OwenS: sure, and page tables and stuff
05:15<OwenS>And an x86 emu wont fit in a cpus imstruction cache...
05:16<OwenS>Page tables hit native code anyway
05:17<b_jonas>OwenS: yes, but they're handled and cached more efficiently by the cpu than by the emulator
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05:17<b_jonas>most of the emulator code should be in the L2 cache anyway
05:18<OwenS>True. Good emus will use the hosts paging though
05:18<@Rubidium>not of the emulated code
05:18<b_jonas>OwenS: yes, I specifically said I'm running a slow emulator
05:18<b_jonas>because it still seems fast enough not to lag unless I view lots of graphics in ttd
05:18<@Rubidium>after all, TTDP uses at least 4 MiB (assuming not enable lowmemory)
05:18<b_jonas>I didn't bother with running it in a fast one
05:19<b_jonas>Rubidium: sure
05:19<OwenS>And L2 cache bandwidth is shared with the data fetches
05:19<b_jonas>also it's the emulation of the vga that slows down the emulation
05:20<@Rubidium>and because of the really random "access" of the data in OpenTTD, caches would not help that much
05:20<b_jonas>maybe if I set the emulated vga rate faster I'd get much more performance and still not see any difference
05:20<b_jonas>Rubidium: they would if much of that data is graphics tiles
05:20<@Rubidium>it isn't
05:21<@Rubidium>I'm not even sure whether TTD caches the graphics
05:21<@Rubidium>in which case it always reads it from disk
05:22<b_jonas>Rubidium: that would be strange, but if it was the case then the emulator would make it much faster
05:22<OwenS>Reading from disk would result in truly awful performance
05:23<@Rubidium>b_jonas: it has to emulate all the syscalls to read from disk?
05:25<b_jonas>Rubidium: yes, but it doesn't actually have to seek and read from the physical disk, which is slow
05:26<OwenS>Neither does it running natively
05:26<OwenS>Operating systems have disk caches
05:27<OwenS>But accesses inside an emulator hit double fragmentation
05:27<OwenS>(or with some image formats triplefragmentation)
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05:32<OwenS>Of course, emulated graphicsare gonna really kill cpu cache, as normally they should hit the write combiners
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05:33<@Rubidium>in any case, OpenTTD in dosbox is slow too
05:33<planetmaker>most graphics things in dosbox are slow
05:34<planetmaker>oh, good morning :-)
05:38<b_jonas>planetmaker: I'm using bochs. good morning.
05:38<b_jonas>OwenS: ah, that's true
05:38<b_jonas>OwenS: and it eats the cache too
05:39<OwenS>Oh. Bochs is just slow
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05:40<OwenS>Bochs isnt really for running programs these days
05:40<OwenS>More of a developers tool...
05:42<b_jonas>OwenS: that too, but bochs also runs many DOS programs correctly, unlike some other emulators
05:42<b_jonas>and so when I don't have performance problems with them I use it
05:42<b_jonas>as I said, most of those games don't need a fast cpu
05:42<b_jonas>nor a good video card
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05:44<b_jonas>especially the older games, the newer games run better in dosbox
05:44<b_jonas>or maybe it's random, not just age dependent
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05:51<b_jonas><whisper>why is the default setting for autosave in openttd one month? does it crash that often?
05:53<OwenS>Because 1mo can still be a lot of work
05:57<@Rubidium>b_jonas: because people crash their trains that often
05:57<b_jonas>in openttd, does buliding parallel diagonal tracks confuse signals like in ttd?
05:57<@Rubidium>or at least when they do, it's always around christmas time
05:58<b_jonas>and same question about building two depots back to back
05:58<@Rubidium>it shouldn't
06:02<planetmaker>as far as testing goes I couldn't find any such bug :-)
06:03*planetmaker wonders how long FS3856 had been lurking before being reported
06:03<b_jonas>I'll probably see in half a game century
06:04<planetmaker>b_jonas, let's say, openttdcoop produces every 10 days or so one game. Quite some things get tested there. Especially signaling and many kind of track oddities
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06:04<planetmaker>(not that the players necessarily know that they're (also) testing the game :-P )
06:06<b_jonas>what kind of signals do train depots have bulit in? can that be changed individually? or are they always pre-signal entries?
06:06<planetmaker>what obviously is missing is a (semi-)nightly server which runs a competitive setup
06:07<planetmaker>b_jonas, that's rather determined automatically. It's never pre-signal entry
06:07<planetmaker>it's either pre-signal combo or path signal
06:08<b_jonas>that means I can probably use path-based signals instead of pre-signals in my usual setup of one-end multi-platform stations with the depot connected directly to the junction
06:08<planetmaker>of course
06:09<b_jonas>right, combo makes more sense because it has to be a presignal exit from the outside and a presignal entry from the inside
06:10<b_jonas>again, will see these too in half a game century
06:11<planetmaker>what date is it in your game now?
06:11<b_jonas>I just started, so it's 1950
06:16<b_jonas>is there a hotkey/shortcut for the land area query tool?
06:18<b_jonas>apparently no
06:19<b_jonas>oh, the query tool prints the height of the square? great, that's useful
06:25<b_jonas>and this autorail and the draggable diagonal rails are a huge timesaver
06:25<b_jonas>the interface improvements are nice
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07:22<b_jonas>you have to put ai libraries in the ai/library directory, not directly in ai, but that directory is not created by the installation. confusing.
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07:24<SmatZ>[12:03:05] * planetmaker wonders how long FS3856 had been lurking before being reported <== for about 12 days :-p
07:25<planetmaker>ah :-)
07:25<planetmaker>I thought it might have been longer
07:26<planetmaker>b_jonas, why should it. It's not even needed, if you download the AIs via ingame content download
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07:26<b_jonas>planetmaker: sure
07:28<b_jonas>anyway, the ai works now
07:28<b_jonas>it builds fast
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08:57<b_jonas>how many tiles is the max lookahead for path based signals? or where is it set?
08:57<Eddi|zuHause>there is no such limit, afaik
08:58<b_jonas>I see
08:58<Eddi|zuHause>it uses the pathfinder, which is global
08:58<Eddi|zuHause>well, there probably is a limit around 64k tiles ;)
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>[including penalties, a little less]
08:59<b_jonas>in a double track like "", which uses path signals and crossovers, will the trains primarily use the right side track and will cross to the left side only if they can reserve path back to the right side?
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but it tends to have two trains constantly overtaking each other
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>so you shouldn't use it
09:01<b_jonas>I see
09:01<b_jonas>does it also cause trains to turn back often because both tracks are temporarily blocked ahead?
09:01<Eddi|zuHause>no, this is blocking-free
09:03<b_jonas>I'll probably just try the layout I usually use in ttdpatch for tracks first, and use pbs only for stations
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09:10<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas: i just wanted to warn you that overtaking might not work as well as you'd like it to be
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09:13<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: right, that's why I'll not use this double track but instead the layout I usually build which does not allow overtaking:
09:13<b_jonas>two tracks with one-way block signals and a few places to turn around guarded by two-way block signals
09:16<b_jonas>I admit I'm not too good with signals
09:16<b_jonas>last ttdpatch game I had a broken roro station for decades and didn't notice
09:17<b_jonas>now I know that the exit pre-signals at the station entrance should be two-way
09:17<Eddi|zuHause>that's not necessary in openttd
09:18<b_jonas>okay, good to know
09:18<planetmaker>one-way / two-way has no influence anywhere
09:19<planetmaker>except if you play with non-default settings
09:20<b_jonas>okay. I'm leaving now, bye.
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12:49<b_jonas>what does this "far end" think do in order?
12:49<b_jonas>train orders taht is
12:50<Sacro>it makes the tarin stop at the far end
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas: you can click on it to have trains stop in the middle or beginning of the platform instead
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas: you can also change the setting to have middle by default. imho that looks best
12:54<Eddi|zuHause>on terminus stations, beginning might give slightly higher efficiency...
12:54<b_jonas>I see
12:55<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: Depends. Far end makes the trains roll into the station faster, so they unblock the junction quicker.
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>i view it mostly as an eyecandy setting...
12:57<OwenS>It would be nice if OpenTTD treated station tiles it wouldn't use as track rather than station for deceleration
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13:13<b_jonas>in the trains information dialog, what do the colored dots below the train numbers mean?
13:13<planetmaker>income status:
13:14<planetmaker>green=10k+ / year, yellow positive < 10k / year, red: negative income, gray: too new to know
13:14<b_jonas>I see
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r19894 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: czech - 27 changes by ReisRyos
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: danish - 19 changes by silentStatic
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: indonesian - 39 changes by prof
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 7 changes by mantaray
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 7 changes by mantaray
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13:56<Nilsor>Im currently setting up a dedicated server on my linux VS
13:56<Nilsor>and im still looking for those server-addons like
13:56<Nilsor>the goal settings for competitive servers
13:56<Nilsor>or such stuff
13:56<Nilsor>can anybody help me out?
13:57<frosch123>goal servers are custom builds, which got patched.
13:57<Nilsor>are there any sources where i can download them?
13:58<frosch123>usually the authors add the number of players on their server to their penis length, so they do not release any patches
13:58<frosch123>or so :p
13:58<frosch123>read: you are on your own
13:58<Nilsor>whats the weird info in the irc topic
13:58<Nilsor>server list: servers,
13:59<frosch123>you shall replace the "*" at the front with one of the other terms
13:59<Nilsor>i c
14:00<b_jonas>.oO(in centimiters or inches? and all the players any time or only the players logged in at any one time?)
14:00<Nilsor>only the current players
14:00<Nilsor>so their penis acts like a sinus wave
14:01<b_jonas>Nilsor: yep, that's called erection
14:02<planetmaker>[19:58] <frosch123> usually the authors add the number of players on their server to their penis length, so they do not release any patches <-- ymmd :-)
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14:21<@Rubidium>I think it is logarithmically in nm
14:22<Hirundo>base-2, base-10 or base-e?
14:22<@Rubidium>Hirundo: doesn't matter as the result is unmeasurable in any case
14:25<@Rubidium>after all, it's multiplied by i in any case
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14:25<frosch123>sounds complex
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>it's an imaginary penis, obviously
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15:21<b_jonas>I have a question about path based signal designs
15:22<b_jonas>If I want a simple two-track two-platform terminus, a simple arrangement is shown in
15:22<b_jonas>now couldn't it be better if you shifted the tracks so that the away track is off, like on the bottom draft at ?
15:23<b_jonas>because that way the first train is likely to park in the top platform, and then if a new train arrives, it won't block the way of the first train leaving
15:24<@Rubidium>nah, now it just happens when the "second" train leaves
15:25<b_jonas>but the first train is likely to leave earlier
15:25<b_jonas>sure, if a third trains comes in early then there'll be a similar jam
15:25<b_jonas>but if you have few trains, the third train won't come before the second one leaves,
15:26<b_jonas>if you have more trains you could use something similar with three platforms and two tracks
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15:27<@Rubidium>otherwise use two path signals with the light to the station; that way that becomes the more expensive one for the pathfinder and the train goes automagically to the top platform
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas: one problem you might face is that the first train exiting is using the "wrong" track and thus still blocks the second train from entering
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15:28<Eddi|zuHause>in theory the pathfinder should have a penalty for that, but i never figured out how that works
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15:31<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: I see
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15:50<b_jonas>in the opengfx set, what is the icon of the railway depot bulid tool on the toolbar supposed to symbolize?
15:53<+glx>try right click
15:57<b_jonas>I know what it does, it builds depots
15:58<b_jonas>but why is the icon L-shaped when the depots looks like a house
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know the opengfx icons
16:00<KenjiE20>#openttdcoop.devzone <-- ask the creators?
16:02*frosch123 wonders what should be L-shaped about that icon
16:02<b_jonas>frosch123: gamma-shaped if you prefer
16:03<frosch123>it's just a depot, isn't it?
16:03<b_jonas>it doesn't look like one
16:03<frosch123>maybe adjust the contrast of your display
16:03<frosch123>the icon might be a little dark
16:04<b_jonas>frosch123: are you using the opengfx set? it does look like a depot in the original ttd set
16:04<b_jonas>it looks like half a depot
16:04<b_jonas>it has the roof and some of the walls
16:05<frosch123>maybe you are not using the opengfx depot, but some stupid monolithical canset or so
16:05<frosch123>the opengfx icon looks like the depot, just smaller
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16:06<@Rubidium>scleenshot time!
16:07<planetmaker>spleen shot would even be nicer :-P
16:07<planetmaker>b_jonas: I can't follow you either
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16:08<planetmaker>pic or it didn't happen
16:08<planetmaker>fits even here ;-)
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16:08<b_jonas>oh, I see
16:09<b_jonas>it's a rail depot open to the SE
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16:09<b_jonas>it has a door on the SE side and no ground below that
16:09<b_jonas>makes sense now
16:09<b_jonas>and its W side is cropped
16:16<b_jonas>here's your pic:
16:17<b_jonas>the icon shows the depot cropped to the marked border, without the rails
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16:17<b_jonas>it's cropped in a confusing way
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16:30<b_jonas>by the way, if I want to show some build to ask a question, are openttd savegames portable among operating systems and cpus?
16:31<planetmaker>oh... I never considered that :-)
16:31<planetmaker>yes, savegames are the same everywhere
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16:32<planetmaker>I guess you're right that the depot icon could possibly use some tracks...
16:32<planetmaker>though it'd be inconsistent with waypoints and stations. Which then also would need some
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17:27<@Belugas>night boyz
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17:37<__ln__>i'm not sure if the final episode explained much
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18:13<Nite_Owl>Hello all
18:15<Nite_Owl>How long before a confirmation email gets sent from the sign up page at the main site?
18:15*Nite_Owl plans on some minor wiki editing
18:17<+glx>it's immediate
18:17<Ammler>maybe you use some filter system?
18:18<Nite_Owl>that is what I feared - I did not get one so I must have failed
18:18<TrueBrain>so re-request one
18:18<@Rubidium>greylisting can delay those mails considereably
18:18*Nite_Owl will try once again
18:18<TrueBrain>but as has an SPF record, it has to be a broken mail filter system
18:19<@Rubidium>planetmaker: any idea how late the "party" starts?
18:19<TrueBrain>Nite_Owl: I don't have a pending entry ?
18:19<planetmaker>you proposed that people should come having had lunch. Sounds like a plan. A feasable one
18:20<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: have you arranged/borrowed the car already?
18:20<TrueBrain>Rubidium: nope, working on it; but shouldn't be an issue
18:20<planetmaker>renting a car should work on 24h notice
18:20<TrueBrain>I think I leave from Leiden at 0900 or something
18:20<TrueBrain>I most likely will rent a car for 2 months :p
18:21<Nite_Owl>I did something wrong then but it did seem rather straight forward
18:21<@Rubidium>my schedule for the 19th has a glitch, which makes me reach Amersfoort CS around 1000
18:21<TrueBrain>haha, not at home? :)
18:21-!-NukeBuster [~wouter@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:21<TrueBrain>last weekend I was around amersfoort :p
18:21<@Rubidium>promised someone to help with something :)
18:22<TrueBrain>so 1000 will be fine
18:22<TrueBrain>means we will be at planetmaker at 1400/1500 I guess
18:22<TrueBrain>who more was joining? I forgot :p
18:22<planetmaker>sounds like a good time
18:22<@Rubidium>Yexo: ?
18:22<TrueBrain>Yexo and Alberth I believe?
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18:22<Nite_Owl>user name & display name can be the same name ??
18:23<Yexo>1000 in amerfoort is fine :)
18:23<Yexo>train 8:32 from eindhoven
18:23<TrueBrain>Yexo: I suggest you arrange some way for you and Rubidium to recorgnize eachother :p
18:23<TrueBrain>I know Rubidium, so I will be looking for him :p
18:24<@Rubidium>Yexo: familiar with Amersfoort station?
18:25<@Rubidium>I suggest to meet at the small car park at the south west side of the station
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18:25<Yexo>ehm, I'm not that familiar with the surroundings of the station, just the station itself
18:25<Yexo>but I should be able to find that
18:25<Nite_Owl>silly me - I did not underscore between the Nite and the Owl
18:26<TrueBrain>it should read in plain text if you did something wrong
18:27<@Rubidium>Yexo: when coming from Utecht, it's the exit near the end of the train
18:27<planetmaker>One of you could just wear a funny hat
18:27<Yexo>so the exit via the starts at that end of the station?
18:27<TrueBrain>or exchange numbers :p
18:28<@orudge>planetmaker: or an OpenTTD t-shirt!
18:28<planetmaker>:-) Or that!
18:28<TrueBrain>orudge: I expect you supply us with those
18:28-!-ajmiles2 [] has joined #openttd
18:28<TrueBrain>as donation :p
18:28<planetmaker>you can ship them to my address and we'll distribute them there.
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18:28<@orudge>I wonder if anybody's bought any
18:28<planetmaker>Though then... not much help then for Yexo & Rubi ;-)
18:28*orudge signs into the store
18:29<TrueBrain>orudge: how much do they cost?
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18:29<@orudge>hmm, $6 of sales apparently
18:29<Nite_Owl>it did but I be dumb
18:29<@Rubidium>Yexo: you don't quite make sense :)
18:29<TrueBrain>Rubidium / Yexo: exchange numbers, call when at station, and TADA! :p
18:29<Nite_Owl>it did read in plain text but I be dumb sometimes
18:30<@Rubidium>if your train arrives, exit it and walk towards the end where the train came from
18:30<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: the location is kinda important for you too :)
18:30<TrueBrain>orudge: expensive shit
18:30<Nite_Owl>like just now when I did not scroll down far enough
18:30<Yexo>Rubidium: yes, there are overhead stairs at that end of the station
18:30<TrueBrain>Rubidium: I just call you when I approach the station :p
18:30<@Rubidium>Amersfoort is a mess w.r.t. one way roads, which makes reaching the "Stationsplein" a bitch
18:30<@orudge>TrueBrain: do you mean "shit" as in "it's rubbish", or just as in "stuff"? :P
18:30<@orudge>I can't say what the quality's like
18:30<@orudge>as I haven't bought any of it myself
18:30<TrueBrain>orudge: stuff :p
18:31<@orudge>but, well, it's pretty much the cheapest we could make it without giving it away :p
18:31<@Rubidium>,5.375211&sspn=0.012507,0.01236&ie=UTF8&ll=52.153366,5.371006&spn=0.006254,0.00618&t=h&z=17 <- that is the location you should go to
18:31-!-Fast2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:31<@Rubidium>not "Stationsplein 41" :)
18:31<TrueBrain>so I will go over A28 instead of A1 :p
18:32<TrueBrain>although it doesn't really matter
18:32<@orudge>I can't figure out from this useless site what was actually bought
18:32<@orudge>but oh well
18:33<TrueBrain>orudge: I love how they rendered the logo on the shirt :p
18:33<__ln__>hmmm... wearing a big dollar sign on a t-shirt may give the wrong idea to people who are unaware of this noble game.
18:33<@orudge>TrueBrain: hmm?
18:34<@orudge>__ln__: heh
18:34<Ammler>never liked the openttd logo either
18:34<TrueBrain>Rubidium: can you also arrange with Alberth? :) I will let you know next week if I have the car or not, but I see no issues, so :)
18:35<TrueBrain>for now, good night
18:36<@Rubidium>I'll give you a route into Amersfoort; it differs a bit from Google's suggested route, but it has more highway and less traffic lights/speed traps
18:37<@Rubidium>it's 1 km longer and 1 minute shorter :)
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18:43<planetmaker>good night here, too :-)
18:46<Nite_Owl>wiki edit made - thank you for your help
18:47<Terkhen>good night
18:47<@Rubidium>night :)
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19:42*b_jonas has built a pbs junction and is now watching whether it seems to work well
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19:47<PeterT>pbs junctions are easy :-P
19:47<PeterT>well, easier
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19:52<b_jonas>good night now
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19:58*PeterT stares at the fail in #freenode
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20:28<Eddi|zuHause>damn, after a day and a half, i'm still 130MB short...
20:29<PeterT>short of what, Eddi|zuHause>
20:29<Eddi|zuHause>don't be so curious...
20:29<PeterT>don't be so vague...
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23:31<CIA-2>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r19895 /trunk/ ( projects/determineversion.vbs): -Fix [FS#3836]: Git version detection would sometimes mistakenly identify a checkout as modified.
23:31<PeterT>\o/ fonsinchen will be happy
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23:53<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: if you really expected any universal answers, you haven't understood it at all...
---Logclosed Wed May 26 00:00:03 2010