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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-06-07

---Logopened Mon Jun 07 00:00:20 2010
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00:42<SmatZ>morning
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04:02<planetmaker>@ports
04:02<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
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04:28<dihedral>pm: did you forget? :-P
04:30<planetmaker>why not use c&p when it's available?
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09:06<@Belugas>Hello
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10:20<Alberth>I am trying to interpret nfo code written for the mini airport state machine by yexo, without much luck
10:20<Alberth>http://paste.openttd.org/225871 <-- my program used to decode, around line 62 starts the interesting parsing stuff
10:20<Alberth>http://paste.openttd.org/225870 the sprite and the output of the program
10:20<Alberth>nvar looks very wrong, but why?
10:21<planetmaker>ok, first question: you are aware that there's no NFO specs so far for airport state machines?
10:21<planetmaker>except the drafts of the airports branch of course
10:21<Alberth>I have some stuff by pikka
10:21<Alberth>but yes
10:21<Yexo>if feature == 5 or feature == 0x0b or feature >= 0x0e: return None <- that isn't correct
10:21<planetmaker>yeah. That's at least partially based on Yexo's work :-)
10:22<Yexo>planetmaker: it's the other way around
10:22<planetmaker>well :-) You did the OpenTTD coding which I referred to. Pikka might have come first with some specs, yes
10:22<Yexo>Alberth: variables 0x60-0x7F have a variable (byte) that directly follows the var number, in this case 0x00
10:23<Yexo>the 0x60 you read as and-mask is actually shift-num
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10:24<Yexo>and because it has the 0x20 bit set it's an advanced varaction2
10:24<planetmaker>oh the joy of NFO readability ;-)
10:25<Alberth>planetmaker: I gave up on manual interpretation :)
10:25<planetmaker>:-)
10:25<Alberth>Yexo: my program also concluded that now, I need to do a bit more programming :)
10:26<planetmaker>Alberth, what programme is that? nfo2nml?
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10:26<Alberth>Yexo: as for the feature check, those values don't have a 'related' object, so I thought they never would happen
10:26<Yexo>Alberth: http://devs.openttd.org/~yexo/nml/ those patches might help you
10:27<planetmaker>:-D
10:27<Yexo>they read a grf (not nfo yet) and parse it into an nml ast
10:27<planetmaker>:-O
10:27<Yexo>Alberth: airports have "planes" as related object
10:27<Yexo>code is not very clean and far from finished, but the varaction2 code is complete IIRC
10:29<@Rubidium>so when you've got the ast->nml you can make nml a linter as well :)
10:29<Alberth>airports are 0x0d in my document, so < 0x0e
10:30<@Rubidium>or code formatter :)
10:31<Yexo>ah, you're right, I confused them with airport tiles
10:32<Yexo>Rubidium: ast->nml is already done (not 100% complete, but enough for now)
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11:33<Ruudjah>hi all
11:33-!-pugi [~pugi@p4FCC6174.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
11:33<Ruudjah>I'm a longtime fan of TTDX/openttd
11:34<Forked>welcome :)
11:34<Ruudjah>I'm an open source advacate through the dutch Pirate Party (Piratenpartij)
11:35<Ruudjah>OpenTTD rocks, and if I wasnt going for elections in The Netherlands, I'd be playing it ;)
11:36<Ruudjah>My question is: are you guys familiar with Pirate Party, and if so, do you think removing copyright will harm OSS in any way?
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11:37<Alberth>Yexo: http://paste.openttd.org/225872 fancy some nfo input? :p
11:38<@Rubidium>Ruudjah: I think it will; if there isn't copyright everyone can do whatever what they like with it *including* closing the source
11:38<planetmaker>^
11:38<Ruudjah>How should we fix this?
11:39<planetmaker>disallowing software patents
11:39<Hirundo>Copyright => no one is allowed to copy your work => good
11:39<Yexo>lol, wouldn't it be much easier to just take #954 to get nfo input?
11:39<Hirundo>Software patents => No one can do anything like your work => bad
11:39<@Rubidium>reduce copyright to say 10 years and forbidding software patents, or limit their applicability to only one year
11:39<Ruudjah>right, software patents is explicitly disallowed in our program
11:39<planetmaker>mind that I cannot vote for you missing Dutch citizenship ;-)
11:39<Markk>Europe don't have software patents?
11:39<planetmaker>Markk, effectively they do
11:39<Ruudjah>we say: copyright for personal use is free (no copyright), commercial use is maximum of 5 years
11:40<Ruudjah>EU does not officially have software patents
11:40<planetmaker>but de facto
11:40<planetmaker>look at the policy of the European patent office
11:40<Ruudjah>though it is possible to patent business processes which effectively makes EU have SP
11:40<andythenorth>Copyright (or at least, author's right) is necessary to ensure freedom. GPL is a beautiful legal construction in the way it uses copyright to provide copyleft :)
11:41<Ruudjah>the viral part of GPL is being undone when removing copyright at all
11:41<Ruudjah>except when you reduce commercial copyright to 5 years
11:41<planetmaker>exactly. And that's bad ;-)
11:41<planetmaker>(removing the viral part of GPL)
11:41<@Rubidium>Ruudjah: no copyright implies public domain which implies anything can be done with it which implies any licensing is null and void
11:42<Hirundo>Ruudjah: 5 years starting when ?
11:42<Ruudjah>Rubidium:correct
11:42<Ruudjah>except for commercial
11:42<Ruudjah>within terms of 5 year
11:42<Ruudjah>5 years starting from publication
11:42<planetmaker>5 years is not much
11:42<planetmaker>What's publication?
11:42<planetmaker>Release of source? Release of binary?
11:43<Ruudjah>enough for artists to make money of off it
11:43<@Rubidium>yet OSS is usually not commerical, which means you'll just kill OSS
11:43<Alberth>Ruudjah: what about books?
11:43<Ruudjah>books have the ability to get your ROI within 5 years
11:44<Ruudjah>So: removing copyright 'will destroy OSS'.
11:44<Ruudjah>How can we fix this?
11:44<@Rubidium>ask your lawyer
11:44<Ruudjah>1: not removing copyright
11:44<Yexo>why do you want to remove copyright so bad anyway?
11:44<Ruudjah>you guys seem to have put quite some thought into the issue
11:44<planetmaker>copyright per se is not bad
11:44<Alberth>Yexo: SPRITENAME handling seems to be missing in the parser
11:45<Yexo>in theory it's good (if everyone would share all information), in practice it'll be very bad (because a lot of people/companies will keep everything to themselfs)
11:45<Ruudjah>so I am reckoning you guys have an idea in where the soution may be
11:45<planetmaker>especially in a commercial environment it's probably more good than harm
11:45<Ruudjah>well
11:45<Ruudjah>a *very* important part which i forgot to tell
11:45<Alberth>Ruudjah: ask around in the digital rights movement
11:45<Ruudjah>is that we *require* (when possible and sensible)
11:45<Ruudjah>to add source
11:45<planetmaker>But extending copyright such that all personal use is limited beyond repair; that's where current copyright goes wrong
11:46<Ruudjah>a reference to the source
11:46<Yexo>Alberth: in the parser of #954? could be, yorick wrote that and I didn't check it at all so far
11:46<Hirundo>add such a reference to what?
11:46<Alberth>Ruudjah: so it is at http://www.verweggistan.somewhere/ unfortunately, the server never seems up
11:46<Ruudjah>problem with copyright is big corporations want to enforce copyirght, therefore internet connections must be monitored
11:47<planetmaker>that's not a logical line one has to follow
11:47<andythenorth>Ruudjah: I'm doing a fairly large open source contract building software for government. if there was no copyright, we couldn't meaningfully open source it
11:47<andythenorth>but we will
11:47<Ruudjah>right
11:47<andythenorth>because copyright exists.
11:47<Yexo>Ruudjah: that is a complete wrong aproach, they "want to monitor internet connections", that doesn't mean they'll have to be allowed to do that
11:47<planetmaker>Just because a book is copyrighted doesn't mean I have to leave my fingerprint and the unique of the book stored online so that I cannot sell it or make a personal copy to cite parts of it when having a discussion with my peer group
11:48<Ruudjah>In france, they implemented HADOPI law, which effectively does just that
11:48<Yexo>and as said before, copyright is not only bad, and not only big corporations want to enforce copyright
11:48<Ruudjah>in most other western countries they want to enforce copyright law through ACTA
11:48<Yexo>did you read anything about the problems with the ipad port? that was openttd/apple enforcing openttd copyright
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11:48<planetmaker>Ruudjah, monitoring is not about copyright... The main point of (or rather agains) monitoring of activities like that on a general level is freedom.
11:48<Alberth>Ruudjah: OSS also wants to enforce their rights
11:48<planetmaker>The very one also granted by your constitution, I'm sure
11:49*andythenorth ponders
11:49<Ruudjah>freedom is taken away under the excuse of copyright
11:49<andythenorth>in theory....if monitoring *didn't* piss off lots of people resp. freedom, would monitoring be desirable to protect GPL software
11:49<andythenorth>??
11:49<Ruudjah>1: restore freedom, 2: fix copyright in a digital age
11:50<Ruudjah>no.
11:50<@Rubidium>copyright isn't the problem, the problem is the invasive ways they are controlling it in
11:50<andythenorth>what would the theoretical correct answer be to GPL violations?
11:50<Ruudjah>if you do not have copyright, or only have copyright in a form which is desirable in an internet age, you don't need controlling internet for that reason
11:51<Hirundo>andythenorth: Taking the case to court, I think (after sending the general legal letters and stuff)
11:51<@Rubidium>copyright *is* the way to enforce open source stuff
11:51<Ruudjah>well, we could extend the requirement that when you remix existing work, you should not only refer to it, but also include the original sourcecode
11:51<Yexo>andythenorth: sue them till they release the source?
11:52<Ruudjah>because the problem with removing copyright, is that the source isnt needed to be there, or a reference
11:52<andythenorth>lets say someone mods a GPLed OSS project, and does a distribution that violates GPL...if that distribution was discovered by a monitoring service, is that inherently evil?
11:52<Ruudjah>enforcing to put the reference *and* the orginal work, will solve the problem?
11:52*andythenorth doesn't advocate monitoring btw
11:52<Yexo>Ruudjah: so if I buy two pieces of source code (with a license that allows me ot use it commercially), then make a new program based on those 2 pieces of source code and sell that, would I need to include the source code? that would be very bad
11:53<Ruudjah>ideally yes, but current world doesnt work with OSS/free information in mind
11:53<Ruudjah>so
11:54<Ruudjah>no, it would harm the software industry because not everyone thinks open yet
11:54<Ruudjah>but
11:54<Yexo>andythenorth: finding illegal acts via monitoring isn't bad in itself, the problem (as I see it) is the many ways that very same monitoring can and will be abused when it's in effect
11:54<@Rubidium>Ruudjah: without (most) of the rest of the world changing the rules at the same time, it'll fail ugly anyway
11:55*andythenorth thinks this is a nice debate....but back to work making OSS and not-so-OSS software :P
11:55<Ruudjah>we should not enforce opening up source code. We should as a government make sure opening up can be done in society
11:55<Ruudjah>Rubidium: we shou;d start somewhere
11:55<Yexo>opening up source code can already be done by (for example) using the gpl
11:56<Ruudjah>correct. Encouraging it facilitated by the goverment helps making the world more open
11:56<Ruudjah>ie
11:56<Ruudjah>if the government wants to use certain software, government can buy the source and publish it
11:56<@Rubidium>Ruudjah: how do you handle stuff copyrighted abroad under the "current" rules?
11:56<Ruudjah>so every citizen can benefit/improve it
11:57<Ruudjah>when we would write law today, tomorrow current copyrighted stuff would get a 5 year counter
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11:57<@Rubidium>Ruudjah: so, in 5 years we can request Windows 7's source code?
11:57<Hirundo>The govt can publish the source only if it has full ownership of the source code, which IIRC is often not the case
11:58<Ruudjah>no, in 5 years you can use windows7 freely
11:58<planetmaker><andythenorth> in theory....if monitoring *didn't* piss off lots of people resp. freedom, would monitoring be desirable to protect GPL software <-- monitoring human behaviour in general is IMHO a violation of my rights to privacy
11:58<Ruudjah>Hirundo: the goverment has the power to buy it, then publish it
11:58<Ruudjah>as a big customer
11:59<Ruudjah>in contract negotiations govt cn say: sure, we'll buy your product, but you need to open up the source. We will pay for that, also
11:59<Hirundo>Companies generally won't allow that without significant compensation, since it may contain large portions of their IP
12:00<Hirundo>public ICT projects will then cost even more than they do now
12:00<Ruudjah>IP is what we want to get rid off. We want EP: Extellectual Property
12:00<@Rubidium>IP is generally patents
12:00<Ruudjah>knowledge property not internal, but external for everyone to share/benefit from
12:00<@Rubidium>so getting rid of software patents is way better than removing copyright on software
12:00<Ruudjah>right
12:01<planetmaker>Ruudjah, putting everything into the public domain after 5 years will basically ruin the profit one can make on intellectual property
12:01<Ruudjah>So we would need to make specific rulings for OSS software/OS data
12:01<Ruudjah>planetmaker: that is correct
12:01<andythenorth>it's a strange twist of fate that patents were originally constructed to *ensure* freedom of intellectual property
12:01<andythenorth>something went wrong along the road :o
12:01<Ruudjah>thats why we advocate for a model wehere companies will make money using expertise, not knowledge
12:02<Ruudjah>better sell the service around the data, not the data itself
12:02*andythenorth isn't sure what the difference is between knowledge and expertise :o
12:02<Ruudjah>expertise=experience with knowledge
12:02<Yexo><Ruudjah> books have the ability to get your ROI within 5 years <- they don't hva ethat ability when everyone knows that the books will be (nearly) free 5 years later
12:02<Hirundo>Ruudjah: Is the GPL so bad? Why 'fix' (governments tend to break stuff) what isn't broken
12:02<Yexo>at least most books aren't outdated 5 years later
12:03<Ruudjah>GPL=awesome
12:03<Ruudjah>but is based on monopolisation of information laws
12:03<Ruudjah>GPL=anti monopolisation
12:03<Ruudjah>thus, GPL should be based on non monopolisation laws
12:04<Ruudjah>Yexo: people still buy printed copies
12:04<Ruudjah>writer still can sell printed copies, only a handfull will wait 5 years
12:05<Yexo>Ruudjah: if the copyright is only valid for 5 years then after 5 years everyone can create printed copies after 5 years
12:05<Ruudjah>yup
12:05<Yexo>and I think many people will wait if they _know_ it's legal and cheap 5 years later
12:05<Ruudjah>so the first 5 years, writer is able to make his money
12:05<Yexo>currently people don't because the price after 5 years will be the same anyway
12:05<Alberth>except nobody will buy the book
12:05<Ruudjah>people download those books now, too
12:06<@Rubidium>I think it will only exagerate the current escalation of RIAA/MPAA and such
12:06<Ruudjah>people still buy books *while they know downloading it is legal and free as in beer*
12:06<Ruudjah>(legal in The Netherlands)
12:06<Alberth>I like a paper version, so why buy harry potter now versus wait 5 years if every company can print them?
12:06<Ruudjah>because you prbably want to read it now
12:06<Ruudjah>at least most people want to
12:07<Hirundo>Free printed copies are hard to get, though, and dead trees tend to read more nicely than screens
12:07<Ruudjah>the main point is that information wants to be free. Any law monopolizing information is futile in the end
12:08<Hirundo>No, monopolization encourages creating that information in the first place
12:08<Alberth>Ruudjah: as long as industry lives from the fact that they can sell many copies to many individuals, that is not going to change
12:08<Ruudjah>so, people, artist, writers, musicians, sofwtare devvers, companies, all need to develop a business model not around knowledge or information itself, but develop a business model around expetrtise, services around data
12:08<Ruudjah>Alberth: this is something they do less and less
12:09<Yexo>Ruudjah: no offence, but if you're running for the elections in a few days, isn't it a bit late to discuss all of this now? Shouldn't you have had a good idea of how to handle all this _months ago_?
12:09<Ruudjah>well
12:09<Ruudjah>the discussion is never over
12:09<Alberth>Ruudjah: not only industry that sells information
12:09<Ruudjah>we discussed it before
12:09<Ruudjah>also with other communities
12:09<Alberth>also industry that sells eg cooking pans
12:10<andythenorth>Ruudjah: " all need to develop a business model not around knowledge or information itself, but develop a business model around expetrtise, services around data" <- I agree, but I tell you it's fricking difficult
12:10<Alberth>if not impossible
12:10*andythenorth is trying every day to make payroll on the basis of expertise
12:10<Ruudjah>our party program is never done
12:10<Ruudjah>and develops always
12:10<Ruudjah>The current program is written with OSS in mind from a copyright perspective
12:11<Ruudjah>thats why we require references to the source
12:11<Alberth>Yexo: that parser also seems to work after small corrections http://paste.openttd.org/225873
12:11<Ruudjah>Yup. those business models are hard to develop
12:12<Alberth>Ruudjah: if you take on something fundalemental as copyright, you need to look at EVERY form of product, not just digital things
12:12<Ruudjah>but not impossible
12:12<Ruudjah>It is
12:12<Ruudjah>at least we tried, and I think we covered most of it
12:12<Ruudjah>But there are always small niches in where not enough thought is put into it
12:13<Ruudjah>(OSS not being one of them)
12:14<Yexo>Alberth: I'd like both a grf and nfo parser in nml, so if you have a framework that support both (where the code parsing the various actions is shared) feel free to commit it
12:14<Hirundo>Ruudjah: Are you purely focused on copyright, or does your program also include statements wrt. e.g. economy, education, integration ?
12:14<Ruudjah>but copyright is mostly relevant in a digital world since most information is made digitally nowadays
12:14<Ruudjah>We are not a one-issue-party, but we are a themeparty
12:14<Ruudjah>the theme being information
12:14<Hirundo>I beg to disagree
12:14<Hirundo>The cooking pan I'll be using to prepare my meal contains information
12:15<Ruudjah>from an information perspective we look to politics
12:15*Rubidium wonders how much the pirate party has thought stuff through
12:15<Ruudjah>so ie for medcare, we say: remove farma patents, and we free up 4 billion (4.000.000.000 ¤) per year in NL
12:15<Hirundo>Everything around us, that we touch, contains information, most of which is covered by some form of copyright
12:15<Hirundo>But who will develop new medicines ?
12:15<Ruudjah>Rudidium: why?
12:16<Alberth>Ruudjah: you seem to find new information here
12:16<Ruudjah>current industry does hardly develop new medicines
12:16<@Rubidium>Ruudjah: "briefgeheim" doesn't apply to postcards
12:16<Ruudjah>they only use farmapatents to ensure income
12:17<Ruudjah>they only spend about 17% of their income to R&D, mostly for medicines we already have
12:17<@Rubidium>so when you don't package a letter in a non-tranlucent enveloppe it doesn't fall under "briefgeheim"
12:17<TrueBrain>hmm .. I love my rented car ...... I should only not drive like a maniac :D :) :) :)
12:17<orudge_>'lo TrueBrain
12:17<@Rubidium>normal emails are like postcards, so no "briefgeheim"; when you encrypt the email it can be considered as a letter in a non-translucent enveloppe and thus "briefgeheim" applies
12:17<Hirundo>There is a constant need for new antibiotics and such due to resistance issues
12:18<Ruudjah>so we do think about economics, healthcare, etc, but from information perspective
12:18<Hirundo>Information won't get you €30 billion
12:18<Ruudjah>4 to start with
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12:18<Ruudjah>then: the first country realizing information should be free, wins the R&D of the world
12:19<Ruudjah>since any R&D department is not hampered by any juridical issues surrounding ideas/designs/information/etc
12:19<Hirundo>No, it will scare away all R&D since they can't make as much money here
12:19<Ruudjah>so there we'd boost our economy
12:19<Ruudjah>at first sight, they'd be scared maybe
12:19<Hirundo>The massive 'changes in business models
12:20<Hirundo>can't be done without a serious recession
12:20<+glx>copyright is not a problem, patents are
12:20<Ruudjah>untill they see that liberating information from monpolization gives enourmous power to R&D
12:20<+glx>and BTW HADOPI is still not applied ;)
12:20<Ruudjah>enforcing copyright will get us laws like HADOPI and treaties such as ACTA
12:20<Alberth>Ruudjah: so your efforts should not be against copyright, but to change business models. Other stuff like copyright will disappear by itself
12:20<Hirundo>It's a prisoners dilemma, liberation is only useful if the rest does it as well
12:21<Ruudjah>true
12:21<TrueBrain>Ruudjah: any reason why CZ was never put back in rotation?
12:21<Ruudjah>Ruudjah: any reason why CZ was never put back in rotation? -->Czech?
12:21<+glx>HADOPI is not about copyrights, it's about majors' money
12:21<Alberth>Yexo: I just started this afternoon, and have no connection to nml ast, so you are ahead of me in that respect
12:21<Ruudjah>when there is no copyright, HADOPI is useless
12:21<Hirundo>Judging by ACTA, it's unlikely that they (= the rest) will
12:22<TrueBrain>Ruudjah: ? Wtf?
12:22<TrueBrain>stupid IRC
12:22<+glx>but copyright is not the problem
12:22<TrueBrain>Rubidium: any reason why CZ was never put back in rotation?
12:22<+glx>copyright is good
12:22<Yexo>Alberth: I haven't worked on it for some time, and I won't do so in the next week
12:22<TrueBrain>(sorry Ruudjah, my tab-complete failed .. yo have a poor name :p :p)
12:22<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: forgetting it?
12:23<TrueBrain>Rubidium: well, you removed it, so I Expected you would put it back when the troubles were over ;)
12:23<TrueBrain>is it safe to put back?
12:23<@Rubidium>don't know
12:23<Ruudjah>to answer a question put here a few mins ago
12:23<TrueBrain>Rubidium: what were the issues? :)
12:23<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: it not updating
12:23<@Rubidium>and it still isn't updating
12:23<Ruudjah>Alberth Ruudjah: you seem to find new information here --> no, but I am wondering if there are any ideas I don't know of yet
12:24<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: for about 2 months now
12:24<TrueBrain>why nobody ever told me that :(
12:24<Alberth>Yexo: is it a good idea to extend in that direction now? nml seems to have enough problem atm
12:24<+glx>TrueBrain: wrong certificate ?
12:24<TrueBrain>cant make an SSH connection
12:25<Alberth>problems*
12:25<Ruudjah>As OTTD is a community with people very aware of copyright, I am thinking people are here having good ideas how to fix the current problem
12:25<Alberth>Ruudjah: imho those are two different things
12:26<Ruudjah>you mean copyright and the problem?
12:26<Alberth>knowing the current situation is not the same as knowing how to rotate the world in 180 degrees
12:26<+glx>DRM are a bigger problem than copyright (usually complicates legit users life)
12:26<Hirundo>Ruudjah: - ban software patents - revoke mickey mouse protection laws
12:27<Ruudjah>mickey mouse protection laws= trademark + copyright
12:27<Hirundo>If you manage that, you've come pretty far
12:27<Ruudjah>first step is to talk about this all in dutch parliament
12:28<Hirundo>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Term_Extension_Act
12:28<Ruudjah>if we manage to do that, we can sprout solutions, maybe your solution
12:28<Alberth>Ruudjah: software patent is basically copyright on ideas. That is bad
12:28<Hirundo>Ruudjah: You're missing a vital point: First step is to get into the parliament in the first place
12:28<Ruudjah>We explicitly want to ban SW patents
12:29<Ruudjah>:)
12:29<TrueBrain>Ruudjah: nightlies should now be a bit faster, as it will no longer wait for a timeout of the CZ mirror :p
12:29<TrueBrain>grrr
12:29<TrueBrain>Ruudjah: change your name
12:29<TrueBrain>Rubidium: nightlies should now be a bit faster, as it will no longer wait for a timeout of the CZ mirror :p
12:29<Ruudjah>Hirundo: true, we are working on that too. Pirates already are in the EU parliament
12:29<Ruudjah>TrueBrain: lol :)
12:30<Ruudjah>wednesday we want to make a step to be in the Dutch National parliament
12:30<Ruudjah>(elections in NL)
12:31<Hirundo>Getting elected in an economic crisis, yet without a serious economic program, seems very hard to me
12:31<Ruudjah>Well
12:32<Ruudjah>in NL, there is a bureau which calculates all programs of each party
12:32<Ruudjah>but the model they use would endup the other way around for Pirate party.
12:32<TrueBrain>Rubidium: I emailed the sysop of CZ mirror what is going on :)
12:32<Ruudjah>ie: we say filesharing is a + on economics, while the bureau says its a - (minus)
12:33<Alberth>so proof the bureau is wrong
12:33<Ruudjah>We will if we have the time & resources
12:34<Hirundo>Too late now, I'm afraid
12:34<Ruudjah>we first need to get elected, so it's a chicken-egg problem
12:34<planetmaker><Ruudjah> We will if we have the time & resources <-- someone with a claim not commonly accepted has to come with the proof a-priory ;-)
12:36*Alberth does not believe movies and music sharing is good for economy at all
12:36<Alberth>perhaps good for persons, but not for economy
12:36<Hirundo>economy = amount of $ moved around
12:36<planetmaker>it depends I think on where you put the barriers
12:36*Rubidium wonders what license a cadaver falls under :)
12:36<Hirundo>free downloading = less $
12:36<Alberth>Hirundo: exactly
12:36<Ruudjah>we better move money around in places where it helps economy somewhere
12:36<planetmaker>Alberth, society is more important than economy - which is only a sub-part of society ;-)
12:37<Ruudjah>If we can make sure artists get paid, they continue to make more stuff
12:37<Hirundo>How do you do that? subsidize ?
12:37<Ruudjah>we dont need to protect the artist's work, but we need to protect the _artists_
12:37<planetmaker>As such I beg to disagree
12:37<Ruudjah>Thats a very good question which I frankly do not have wel-thought answer to.
12:38<planetmaker>An artist lives of this unique ideas / unique ways to do / show / present <whatever>
12:38<Hirundo>And the ill-thought answer?
12:38<planetmaker>if you give that idea no credit and protection, the incentive to be inventive is gone
12:38<Ruudjah>We do know: moving money to move information is not gonna help society nor society's economy much
12:38<Ruudjah>we do give the idea credit
12:39<planetmaker>Ruudjah, but it has to pay
12:39<Ruudjah>by requiring to link through the source
12:39<Ruudjah>planetmaker: yes
12:39<Ruudjah>but not neccesarliy through information, we believe in services or expertise
12:39<Ruudjah>ie Dutch most famous poet gives away his pets freely on the internet
12:39<planetmaker>why would you pay 11 people chasing a ball €€€€ while a person performing on the national opera only €
12:39<Ruudjah>*poets
12:40<Ruudjah>but he makes money being on TV
12:40<Ruudjah>making new poets in the TV program
12:40<planetmaker>not if you cut the copyright and reproduction fees on film material
12:40<Alberth>poems, I hope :)
12:40<Ruudjah>he doesnt sell his poets, but he sells his service
12:40<planetmaker>:-P
12:40<Ruudjah>poems :)
12:40<planetmaker>Poets might be possible, but only late at night :-P
12:40<Hirundo>The famous poets, artists, sportsmen etc can get away with that
12:40<@Rubidium>planetmaker: because in an opera it is not done to chant offensive remarks and unlikely to see people get harmed
12:40<Hirundo>The other 90% can and will not
12:41<Ruudjah>less famous poets can make money in different ways
12:41<Ruudjah>there is a poet putting his poems on his blog
12:41<Ruudjah>making money from ads
12:41<planetmaker>How so, if even the meagre margin made by a book is void after 5 years?
12:41<Alberth>without copyright, there is no need for ads
12:41<planetmaker>Making money with ads doesn't work even if you have a few hundret clicks per day
12:41<planetmaker>(own experience)
12:41<Ruudjah>selling information=futile in internetsociety where everyone can copy it anyways
12:42<Hirundo>^^ google ads won't feed you
12:42<Hirundo>If you can't sell it, why create it in the first place?
12:42<+glx>and usually people use adblocks
12:42<Alberth>so the poet stops making money
12:42<Ruudjah>then probably putting those poems in a deadtree and selling that paper wont feed you either
12:42<Alberth>bye bye art
12:42<planetmaker>Yes, a book won't feed you, too; but it might give you a few thousand Euros once. And maybe a 2nd and third time less, but still, if it is re-printed
12:43<planetmaker>The latter would simply be gone, if everything was free to copy after 5 years
12:43<planetmaker>That'd be bad... it feeds the non-best-sellers
12:44<planetmaker>People like those already have a scarce income, you'd cut it completely giving it away for free after a very short time
12:44<Ruudjah>how is that different from the current situation?
12:44<planetmaker>No one can sell their books without giving a royalty to the author. For their whole life
12:44<Ruudjah>we only say: hey! this is going on _right now_, so let's all adapt
12:44<Ruudjah>I may legally copy a book here in NL
12:45<Ruudjah>legally have my own copy without paying the author/artist
12:45<planetmaker>But you may not publish it
12:45<planetmaker>and bring it to the stores
12:45<Ruudjah>doesnt matter for the income of the author
12:45<planetmaker>That's what you advocate, though
12:45<planetmaker>it does big time!
12:45<Ruudjah>no
12:45<Ruudjah>if everyone can get their copy for free anyways, it doesnt cange the situation
12:46<planetmaker>Sorry? If anyone could go and sell printed copies of my books I wrote - how would that NOT harm me?
12:46<planetmaker>I'd starve to death
12:46<Hirundo>^^what pm said
12:46<+glx>planetmaker: just don't write it in first place
12:46<planetmaker>glx, exactly
12:46<planetmaker>But I know a number of people who live on exactly this.
12:46<Ruudjah>me too
12:46<planetmaker>They'd not be amused... very rightfully
12:46<Ruudjah>and they agree
12:47<Ruudjah>situation is not any different as it is now, at least in NL
12:47<planetmaker>Ruudjah, how would they finance themselves, if they cannot live of what they wrote?
12:47<Ruudjah>in a different way then selling the information
12:47<Ruudjah>software industry is busy devleoping business models around this for over 25years
12:47<Ruudjah>music industry about 10 years
12:48<Ruudjah>book industry like 1 year, since good e-readers are massively on the market
12:48<Ruudjah>thats why we say: give bookindustry time an opportuinities to reform their money making ways
12:48<+glx>but copyrights are not the problem
12:48<Hirundo>a 25 year 'structural adjustment' (=recession) ?!? :o
12:48<Ruudjah>so that they can make money of their services
12:48<planetmaker>every bet that the authors get their share from any publication of their material
12:48<planetmaker>it may only be like 50ct per 25€ book. But still
12:48<Ruudjah>since about 1985 software is OSS and business models are devloped around having OSS
12:49<planetmaker>That's not working with books and arts
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12:49<planetmaker>it's different things
12:49<Ruudjah>thats a dangerous assumption
12:49<planetmaker>yours is
12:49<Ruudjah>which I think is untrue
12:49<planetmaker>prove it.
12:49<Ruudjah>I only need one artist to prove it
12:49<+glx>what service an actor can sell ?
12:50<Ruudjah>which I already did: it is the dutch poet
12:50<planetmaker>^
12:50<planetmaker>what service can the author of a poem sell?
12:50<Ruudjah>being in a TV program making poems about the TV show
12:50<planetmaker>that can do one, two poets
12:50<Hirundo>How many poets can make their money that way? ^^
12:50<+glx>why would the TV pay for something free ?
12:50<Ruudjah>its about finding new wasy to make money
12:50<planetmaker>also ^
12:51<Ruudjah>that dutch poet found his way
12:51<Ruudjah>more ways lead to rome
12:51<planetmaker>because they CANNOT take it for free
12:51<Ruudjah>everyone has to find their ways
12:51<Ruudjah>software industry has already quite some ways, music industry also some ways
12:51<+glx>totally different markets
12:51<planetmaker>so you take the income from most creative people and tell them "find your (new) way to make money?"
12:51<Ruudjah>and new ways are appearing from the book/poem industry
12:51<planetmaker>Genius!
12:52<Ruudjah>no
12:52<Ruudjah>we only reckon that this is going on anyways
12:52<planetmaker>what is "this"?
12:52<Ruudjah>making a copy for personal use enables all citizens not needing to pay for a book, music or other arts in digital form
12:53<Ruudjah>right now they are f'd.
12:53<+glx>for music industry the problem is the majors
12:53<planetmaker>that'd kill art
12:53<planetmaker>if it's free for all
12:53<Ruudjah>Here in NL, art is far from dead
12:53<Ruudjah>it _IS_ free for all here in NL!
12:53<planetmaker>it's not ;-)
12:53<Ruudjah>well
12:53<planetmaker>You may not download all music for free.
12:54<Ruudjah>read the auteurswet of 1912, and all juridical precedents since 1990
12:54<planetmaker>You may not sell a new edition of Harry Potter
12:54<Alberth>just because almost all people do illegal things doesn't mean you have to assume that is the right way
12:54<Ruudjah>effectively, it is legal to download software, books, music here in NL
12:54<planetmaker>and you may not sell a movie of the latest theatre play
12:54<Ruudjah>I am not saying I may sell harry potter
12:55<planetmaker>but that's what you want
12:55<Ruudjah>I am saying that citizens here in NL do not need to pay for a book, or poems, or music
12:55<Ruudjah>and that will destroy some industries
12:55*Alberth thinks that is broken
12:55<Ruudjah>so we need not destroying of those industries
12:56<planetmaker>You'd kill one of your big money printers: Elsevier
12:56<Ruudjah>but making sure they can earn money while in an internetage
12:56<Ruudjah>Elsevier needs business model reform anyways
12:56<Ruudjah>they are dying right now
12:56<Ruudjah>slowly
12:56<planetmaker>sure they do. That's why I don't publish in their journals.
12:56<planetmaker>But they're surely not dying ;-)
12:57<Ruudjah>I do think they are dying if they continue to monetize purely on information
12:57-!-KOT [~chatzilla@94-192-239-122.zone6.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
12:58<Ruudjah>but in some markets elsevier is shrinking
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13:04<KOT>hi all
13:04<KOT>can anuy1 explain how to connect to servers??
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13:07<Alberth>@ports
13:07<@DorpsGek>Alberth: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
13:08<Alberth>those are the ports you need to enable
13:09<__ln__>@ports KOT
13:09<@DorpsGek>__ln__: Invalid arguments for port.
13:09<+glx>theorically clients don't need to open anything
13:09<KOT>u mean in the game or in the firewall ??
13:09<Alberth>yeah, I thought so to after studying the text
13:09<Alberth>too*
13:10<__ln__>glx: except open ttd!
13:10<KOT>ow ok let me try this brb
13:10<+glx>firewall and router, but only if you want to host a server
13:10<KOT>no i just want to join a server :)
13:11<KOT>ok got it now :)
13:12<Alberth>many firewalls allow outgoing connections by default, so there you should not need to enable a port, if I understand it correctly
13:12<Alberth>+routers
13:13<KOT>dont worry i got router set :)
13:13<+glx>and when they don't, they usually just ask when the connection starts
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r19941 /trunk/src/lang/ (luxembourgish.txt romanian.txt russian.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 31 changes by Phreeze
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: romanian - 2 changes by kkmic
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: russian - 3 changes by Lone_Wolf
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13:57<Macha>I'm doing a co-operative game between a few friends: How do I prevent people changing the company password?
13:58<Alberth>set it yourself?
13:59<Alberth>but otherwise not afaik
13:59<Macha>Co-op as in everyone will be using the same company. (Like openttdcoop). What openttdcoop seem to do is have a bot change the password every so often, but that's a lot of hassle to go to.
13:59<Alberth>but it is a bit weird, you trust them for a co-operative game, but not with the passwd ?
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14:00<frosch123>coop has a server password, no company password, does it?
14:01<Alberth>openttdcoop does it to force people onto their irc channel I think
14:02<Macha>Alberth: A few friends who often play openTTD from a forum, and a few RL friends. I can't put it past one of the RL ones to go: "Oh, I'm bored, let's change the password. Haha".
14:03<Alberth>that seems more harmless than 'oh I am bored, lets remove all tracks from the game
14:04<Alberth>ie if you cannot trust them with the pwd, why do you trust them with the game?
14:04<Macha>Alberth: Fair point
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14:11<andythenorth>evening
14:11*andythenorth has finished work for today...ish
14:11<andythenorth>could be time for some OTTD
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14:13<frosch123>real work :p
14:15*andythenorth ponders
14:16<andythenorth>should I (a) make feature requests which mostly but not always go into some kind of dev/null or
14:16<andythenorth>(b) stop FIRS crashing in arctic climate?
14:17<frosch123>(c) stop ottd crashing on first in arctic
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14:17<@Rubidium>(d) start learning C, C++, Object C, Object C++, OpenTTD's structure and Apple's SDKs in an effort to revive the Mac OS X port, including maintaining the Object C++ front-end of GCC
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14:18<frosch123>(e) offer apple to fix their os
14:18*andythenorth votes b / c
14:18<andythenorth>and it's done :P
14:18<andythenorth>(d) looks more time consuming
14:20<Alberth>a longer journey to enjoy :)
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14:28*andythenorth thought this was a rather nice patch :P
14:28<andythenorth>http://devs.openttd.org/~yexo/nearby_industries.diff
14:30<andythenorth>hmm
14:30<andythenorth>is it just me.....or are most default industries quite free of snow in arctic?
14:30<andythenorth>perhaps they have good janitors :P
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14:31<frosch123>default industries cannot distinguish snow when drawing
14:31<frosch123>so only the only-appears-above-snowline-forest has snow graphics
14:34<andythenorth>interesting :o
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14:38<andythenorth>meanwhile....if I check the newly-available var A7 during cb 28, do I need to think about backwards compatibility?
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14:46<Hirundo>A variable that is not available makes the varaction2 code select the first group, independent of its range
14:56<fjb>Moin
15:02<andythenorth>Hirundo: thanks
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15:43<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r19942 /trunk/src/viewport.cpp: -Fix [FS#3871](r19816): Vertical dragging of rail was broken.
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15:56<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r19943 /trunk/src/ (news_gui.cpp widget.cpp window_gui.h): -Fix [FS#3865]: Disallow moving of vehicle news window.
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16:00<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r19944 /trunk/src/news_gui.cpp: -Feature(ette): Open vehicle view when clicking on the caption of vehicle news.
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16:37<andythenorth>anyone want to weigh in on the great FIRS Aluminium Plant controversy? :P
16:38<PeterT>"hmm
16:38<PeterT>looks a little too shiny to me...
16:38<PeterT>but then that's just my opinion, which doesn't matter :roll:
16:38<PeterT>awesome graphics as usual anyway :bow:"
16:38<PeterT>very descriptive...
16:38<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r19945 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r19755-ish): Allow turning of roadvehicles while waiting in a queue (again).
16:45<Alberth>aluminium does not weigh that much :)
16:45<ccfreak2k>andythenorth, aluminium plant?
16:45<ccfreak2k>Perhaps I should...
16:45<ccfreak2k>reflect on it.
16:45<ccfreak2k>B|
16:45<ccfreak2k>(yeeeeeaaaaaaaaahhhhhh)
16:45<planetmaker>andythenorth: there's some point to "it looks quite generic now"
16:46<andythenorth>ccfreak2k: well that's about as helpful as the other comments :)
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16:46<andythenorth>planetmaker: yep
16:46<planetmaker>on the other hand I find the original one quite bulky
16:46<andythenorth>yep
16:46<planetmaker>what a bout a two-tile wide hall with 3 tiles length or so.
16:46<planetmaker>And adding some side buildings
16:46<planetmaker>like the transformator. An office. Whatever
16:46<andythenorth>I reckon they're missing the A-frame shed
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16:46<planetmaker>?
16:47<andythenorth>planetmaker: http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=129752
16:47<andythenorth>the building on the right
16:47<planetmaker>I see graphics, I see the words, but don't understand the latter
16:48<Alberth>I also thought it was another industry
16:48<planetmaker>the over-sized toilet building?
16:48<andythenorth>II think the players posting forum feedback probably like the large piece-of-cheese building :)
16:48<Alberth>looks almost like a green house
16:48<andythenorth>I have drawn a smaller version of that which I might restore
16:49<Ammler>why not, another nice feature of FIRS is (was) the bigger industries
16:49<andythenorth>Ammler: one reason is that it makes them very unlikely to get placed on anything other than flat maps
16:49<andythenorth>flat, smooth maps
16:49<Ammler>can't you have different layouts?
16:50<Ammler>I guess, pbi has something like that for the quarry
16:50<andythenorth>when the building is made up of one 3x4 and one 4x4 building the layout variation is limited
16:50<Ammler>firs has that too :-)
16:50<andythenorth>better to use more smaller tiles
16:51<andythenorth>in the original sprites....the building on the left can be recreated with the new tiles I've drawn, I just haven't done the layout yet :o
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16:59<planetmaker>hm... what property defines whether an industry closes?
16:59<planetmaker>or a callback which I miss?
17:01<andythenorth>cb for monthly production change or random production change
17:02<planetmaker>and an industry closes when...?
17:02<andythenorth>when 04 80 is returned to the cb?
17:02<planetmaker>(I try to get rid of eternal power plants, water towers and banks
17:02<frosch123>prop 0B ?
17:03<andythenorth>0h = black hole, never closes?
17:03<frosch123>"Setting this property to 0 means no production changes and no closing, like e.g. the power station."
17:04<planetmaker>oh. So property 0B is sufficient for my case :-)
17:05<frosch123>btw. this property shows a common disease of assembler programmers: using bitmasks even if only one value can be present at a time
17:05<planetmaker>hm, yeah
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17:09<frosch123>night
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17:11<ccfreak2k>0Black hole.
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17:16<andythenorth>bah
17:16<andythenorth>I need to set bit 7
17:16<andythenorth>done
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17:35*andythenorth is baffled
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17:37<andythenorth>bah
17:37<andythenorth>clustering industries on the map is not very easy
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>you could put the first N coal mines randomly, and the next ones only if another mine is already nearby
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>where N depends on map size
17:42<andythenorth>yup
17:43<andythenorth>that means using var 67 :)
17:43<andythenorth>not tonight
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19:08<@Rubidium>hmm, what parameters should you give to sort so it doesn't ignore characters like '[' ?
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19:24<Eddi|zuHause>LC_ALL=C?
19:32<@Rubidium>that seems to work
19:32<@Rubidium>so, thanks!
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>it does say that in the man page ;)
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19:32<Eddi|zuHause>at least that looked closest like the thing you asked for
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19:34<@Rubidium>ah, now I see it... they did a good job hiding that in plain sight! :)
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20:05<Donut>what's going on in here
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20:06<PeterT>@topic get -1
20:06<@DorpsGek>PeterT: Don't ask to ask, just ask
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22:03<SmatZ>morning
22:04<PeterT>morning SmatZ, you're up early ;-)
22:04<PeterT>and I'm up late :p
22:04<SmatZ>:-)
22:04<SmatZ>very early...
22:04<PeterT>lol yes
22:04<PeterT>going to work or something?
22:04<SmatZ>actually, I just came home
22:04<SmatZ>:-p
22:05<PeterT>aha
22:05<SmatZ>what are you doing so late here, PeterT?
22:06<PeterT>well, school is almost over, so I don't see any reason to go to bed early
22:06<SmatZ>:)
22:06<SmatZ>"almost"
22:06<PeterT>hehe
22:06<PeterT>2 weeks or so
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22:07<SmatZ>:)
22:07<PeterT>just got home from a party or something?
22:08<SmatZ>yes :)
22:08<PeterT>hehe :)
22:08<SmatZ>I woke up at 6am, and now it's 4am and I don't feel sleepy
22:08<SmatZ>strange
22:09<PeterT>too much beer :-P
22:09<SmatZ>hehe :)
22:18<PeterT>oh wow - I'm not good at this :(
22:18<PeterT>I'm already yawning
22:22<SmatZ>:-)
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---Logclosed Tue Jun 08 00:00:21 2010