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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-06-08

---Logopened Tue Jun 08 00:00:21 2010
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03:05<Terkhen>good morning
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03:33<planetmaker>good morning
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05:04<TrueBrain>all say: welcome back, to the CZ mirror
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05:05<Mitch_1_2>Hi. How do I clear up wrecked trains?
05:10<borgfish>funny question :)
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05:14<planetmaker>welcome back, to the CZ mirror! <-- like that, TrueBrain ? ;-)
05:17<@peter1138>CZ mirror: welcome back
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05:32<planetmaker>anyone around in Brussels on Thursday night? :-)
05:32<Mazur>I'd guess all the residents, apart from a few on vacation.
05:33<planetmaker>(I see where that question goes wrong...) ;-)
05:33<@Rubidium>no, but is wednesday evening in Luxembourg close enough?
05:34<planetmaker>I fear I'll be working quite late near Brussels on Wednesday evening
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05:34<theholyduck>planetmaker, if you pay for the plane, sure
05:36<@Rubidium>planetmaker: I can possibly offer you Brussels in the afternoon of Friday the 18th
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06:28<planetmaker>Rubidium, at that time I rather prefer to be already back in BS ;-)
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06:32<Eddi|zuHause>why do you want to spend time in "BullShit"? :p
06:32<planetmaker>meh :-P
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06:33<planetmaker>hmpf ctrl+w on wrong window
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06:52<fjb>The DVD writer I got from eBay has a visible and smellable nicotine problem. :-(
06:55<fjb>It is covered in brown stains, it stinks, it sticks, it has brown nuggets in the tray.
06:56<@Rubidium>fjb: so that were the "free extra's" in the advertisement
06:57<fjb>They were not advertised, sadly. There was an not advertised DVD in it.
06:58<fjb>Hm, a picture CD from cewe. Am I curious?
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07:18<@Rubidium>what's cewe for location?
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07:22<fjb>cewe color, a film development service.
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07:24<fjb>Oh, the CD also has a nicotine problem. :-(
07:26<fjb>It is not readable any more.
07:27<Eddi|zuHause>i think you've been screwed...
07:27<Eddi|zuHause>get a new one next time... they only cost like 20€...
07:29<fjb>It is one of the rare drives with Philips chip which can test the quality of a DVD. You can't buy them new any more.
07:30<fjb>Nicotine kills people and technical instruments.
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>hm... is there a parameter in firs to override compatibility checks?
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07:55<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: no, but one could be added. But then there would be bug reports :P
07:55<planetmaker>I don't think so, Eddi|zuHause
07:56<andythenorth>there is the ability to remove them from source yourself :)
07:56<planetmaker>well, an over-ride parameter would be somewhat easy, but still...
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>the problem is, i have modded the industry changes out of alpine.grf
07:56<planetmaker>can be hell
07:56<planetmaker>then give it a different grfID and you're done
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>but when i change the grf-id, dbset won't load, and if i don't change the id, firs won't load
07:57<planetmaker>then you need to mod FIRS. Provide a patch
07:57<planetmaker>happily added, I think
07:57<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: line 51 in checks.pnfo
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>i'll check
07:58<andythenorth>planetmaker: is a parameter a good or bad thing for this problem?
07:58<andythenorth>I can forsee support problems
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08:01<Eddi|zuHause>germanrv has a parameter to override the check, for use in combination with "allow multiple vehicle sets"
08:02*andythenorth imagines a conversation
08:02<andythenorth>user: "Hi, FIRS doesn't work"
08:02<andythenorth>andy: "what do you mean by doesn't work?"
08:02<andythenorth>etc etc
08:03<dihedral>we know those conversations ;-)
08:03<dihedral>it exists with everything!
08:03<andythenorth>until "user: I enabled the over-ride parameter"
08:03<andythenorth>andy: "oh well, can't help"
08:03<Ammler>andythenorth: support is never a excuse for not doing something, you could simply decline support
08:04<andythenorth>anyone who wants to over-ride it can compile themself
08:04<dihedral>and then you'll get a load of 'can you provide a precompiled for me?' in the forum
08:04<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: are you going to distribute alpine grf?
08:04<dihedral>or a 'is there a patch for' ...
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: no
08:04<dihedral>'why can i not play on that server'?
08:05<andythenorth>dihedral: yeah, but I can ignore those, because they are feature requests not bug reports.
08:05<dihedral>+ if you decline support for something from the very beginning, why even bother with adding such a feature?
08:05<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i can live with you saying "there won't be a parameter"
08:05<andythenorth>that's my feeling
08:05<andythenorth>no parameter :)
08:05<dihedral>unless you make the paramter hold a word, such as "iknowthisisnotsupportet"
08:05<Ammler>i just meant, don't use "support" as excuse
08:06<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: you should've said "there won't be no parameter"
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08:08<Eddi|zuHause>hm... there's an oddity in the newgrf window
08:08<Eddi|zuHause>if you use the filter, and add one of the grfs, and click the add button again, it adds another grf not in the filtered list..
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08:10<dihedral>off by one?
08:10<dihedral>or starting the 'index' all over again in the filtered list?
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08:17<Eddi|zuHause>err... andythenorth, this doesn't look right:,%201.%20Jan%201922.png
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08:29<b_jonas>can I continue a game saved in openttd 1.0.1 in 1.0.2-RC1? how much stuff is lost or broken?
08:33<Ammler>usually, things got fixed not broken due update ;-)
08:33<Yexo>b_jonas: you can even continue savegames made with original ttd if you wanted
08:34<Eddi|zuHause>(make sure town layout is set to "original" or "better roads", not "grid" in that case ;))
08:36<b_jonas>I'll try to upgrade to 1.0.2-RC1 then
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08:50<b_jonas>it built clean and loaded my game.
08:50<b_jonas>now does this support changing the interface fonts, or is that not compiled in yet?
08:50<b_jonas>do I need some configure option for that?
08:51<Yexo>that has been included for quite some time now, but only since 1.0.0 does the interface also scale when needed
08:51<Yexo>the only way to change it is to modify the config file
08:51<+glx>1.0.2-RC1 is just a bugfix for 1.0.1
08:51<+glx>no new feature
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08:54<b_jonas>ah, the config file
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09:15<planetmaker><Eddi|zuHause> err... andythenorth, this doesn't look right:,%201.%20Jan%201922.png <-- alpine climate?
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09:15<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i don't think that's the cause, it should happen in normal subarctic climate, too
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10:18<planetmaker>but not that often ;-)
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11:00<b_jonas>the release candidate works so far
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11:13<b_jonas>is it bad to have both plane and passenger trains between the same two stations?
11:14<planetmaker>why should it?
11:14<planetmaker>trains can provide higher through-put as the airport capacities are limited
11:15<b_jonas>well, I'm still building the train network
11:15<b_jonas>this map is a bit strange, because the three largest cities are in one cluster in the middle of the map
11:16<b_jonas>and the other large towns can't extend well
11:16<b_jonas>so the middle cities are a bit crowded
11:16<planetmaker>especially then planes are only good to give you starting money in order to build a nice train network ;-)
11:16<b_jonas>I'm transporting everything there
11:16<b_jonas>oh great, I thought there was a secret to planes I didn't discover
11:17<b_jonas>but I'm not too good in passenger trains either
11:17<b_jonas>I always get rich from goods instead
11:17<planetmaker>it all depends on a good network :-)
11:17<b_jonas>right, I'm trying to build one now
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11:21<Eddi|zuHause>i rarely do cargo at all...
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11:55<b_jonas>I've been building this junctions for game years, now I'll have to debug it for a few more game years
11:56<b_jonas>meanwhile I'm getting "urgently needs replacing" messages
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11:58<frosch123>enable autorenew?
12:02<b_jonas>no, I don't like that
12:02<b_jonas>especially now now that Asiastar has come out
12:02<b_jonas>I want to decide the trains
12:03<b_jonas>also, I want to play the game, not let the game play it itself
12:03<+glx>use autoreplace then ;)
12:09<planetmaker><3 autoreplace
12:15<frosch123>isn't there a difference between using autorenew and watching ais?
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12:47<b_jonas>I'd like a warning signal for debugging train networks, which would behave like an ordinary rail track without signal except that if a train passes it, I get a news message.
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12:50<Eddi|zuHause>you could hack the "first train arrives at <X>" message to pop up every time a vehicle enters a waypoint
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13:07<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: not bad
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13:29<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i think i need someone with deeper grf-implementation knowledge here... situation is this: grf A defines vehicles, and grf B defines a cargo translation table and a refitmask for the vehicles in A. situation in openttd now is, that the cargo translation table of grf B gets ignored and the refitmask is treated for raw cargo slots.
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>question is: is this an oversight, a misinterpretation of the specs on openttd's part, or a misinterpretation of the specs by the grf coder?
13:36<+glx>maybe with action 0 feature 8
13:36<+glx>property 11
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13:37<Eddi|zuHause>as far as i know, that is already used.
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise the changing of the refitmask has no effect at all (when multiple vehicle grfs is allowed)
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13:40<frosch123>i guess only the cargotranslation table from the grf supplying the action3 is used
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>so a solution would be, to have action 0 feature 8 property 11 to also override the cargo translation table of grf A?
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>(if defined)
13:44<frosch123>i don't think that makes any sense
13:44<frosch123>cargo translation table is not only used for properties, but also for lots of varact2 variables
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r19946 /trunk/src/lang/ (french.txt indonesian.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: french - 19 changes by ElNounch
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: indonesian - 61 changes by prof
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>other solution would be to store for each property(?!) which GRF defines it?
13:48<Hirundo>^^ at least for 1A/28/29 in _gted, to determine the correct refit mask
13:49<frosch123>how does ttdp do it?
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>i have no clue...
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13:56<frosch123>ttdp does it the same
13:56<frosch123>action3 defines the grf a vehicle belongs to, and that one defines the cargotranslationtable consistently for the whole vehicle
13:56<frosch123>both variables as refit property
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13:58<Eddi|zuHause>so... any chance to properly solve it?
13:59<frosch123>the issue is independent from the override-engines-from-grf property
14:00<frosch123>i would say, just use the same cargo translation table in both grfs
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14:01<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but what if grf A cannot be changed?
14:03<frosch123>use cargo classes, and zero refit mask :p
14:03<planetmaker>well, but it still only gets you that far ;-)
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14:03<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, cargo translation table should be defined by the grf that is going to use it
14:03<planetmaker>sometimes you really want to take out a specific cargo (or add it)
14:04<planetmaker>is there a point for an industry set to have one?
14:04<planetmaker>good :-)
14:04<planetmaker>Then my perception wasn't that wrong
14:04<frosch123>oh, maybe there is
14:04<planetmaker>town cargos?
14:05<frosch123>when your industry grf does not define all cargos itself
14:05<frosch123>but also uses cargos from other grfs
14:05<planetmaker>hm... what then?
14:05<frosch123>then using a cargotranstable could be useful
14:07<planetmaker>I think firs defines everything, though. But if not... how would a CTT help you then?
14:09<frosch123>assume set A defines cargoslots 5-9. set A can coexist with either set B or set C, which each define cargoslots 10-15, though with different cargos. B and C are not compatible
14:09<frosch123>if A uses a cargotranslation table it can distinguish the cargos without reliing on the original cargobit or slot
14:09<frosch123>s/or bit//
14:11<frosch123>anyway. if the grf only works with certain industry grfs, then it also knows the original cargobits they define, and then you do not need a cargotranslation table
14:11<Ammler>how do I load a save with "old" banans grfs on a dedicated server?
14:12<frosch123>cargotranstables are only needed when the origin of the cargo definition is unknown resp. can vary.
14:12<frosch123>Ammler: how do you load it on a non-dedicated server?
14:13<Ammler>with the gui -> load ->update grfs -> load again
14:13<frosch123>that is singleplayer, isn't it?
14:14<Ammler>yes, how to do that in mp dedi?
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14:15<frosch123>i guess you cannot :p however, you could add a console command if i manage to continue
14:16<frosch123>(i.e. read newgrf and general information from a save without loading it)
14:16<Ammler>wow, thtat looks awesome :-)
14:16<frosch123>it does? i thought grey is damn ugly :p
14:17<Ammler>oh well, I mean the feature :-P
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14:23<b_jonas>if I later post a screenshot or savegame of a rail network I built, could you look at it and criticize it?
14:23<b_jonas>if so, should it be a savegame or screenshot or both, and if screenshot, what zoom and display options do you prefer?
14:24<frosch123>if it is maglev only, better zoom far out so noone has to see the rails
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14:31<planetmaker>[20:15] <frosch123> i guess you cannot :p however, you could add a console command if i manage to continue <-- :-O Nice!
14:33<planetmaker>b_jonas: always provide both, if you want feedback
14:35<planetmaker>I can only speak for myself: only sometimes I'm in a mood to give feedback on 'look what I built here' - and only a few of those times I feel like opening actually the savegame
14:35<b_jonas>it's electric
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14:35<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas: maybe you could check out the screenshots forum
14:36<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: okay, I'll look at it
14:36<planetmaker>or the #openttdcoop public server savegame archive ;-)
14:36<planetmaker>it's not everyone's style, though
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14:37<planetmaker>make the screenshots in any case of what you like to get feedback of most
14:38<planetmaker>looking at an image is about 1000 times easier than loading a savegame in terms of lazyness
14:38<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: where's that forum? is it under ?
14:39<b_jonas>ah, I see, it's not under the openttd section
14:39*planetmaker wonders whether SmatZ' piece of pie should say "nooo!" ;-)
14:39<b_jonas>for reference, it's
14:40<SmatZ>a pie? :)
14:40<planetmaker>there has to be a pie, I think, not?
14:40<SmatZ>great :)
14:40<planetmaker>Yexo get's devzone bug #1000 :-P
14:41<planetmaker>and an r20k for all :-)
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14:45<Ammler>what if r20k isn't done then?
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>we still do not have a r10k either ;)
14:46<frosch123>Ammler: we stay until it is done :p
14:47<Ammler>now, I get why TrueBrain asked for Wifi
14:47<frosch123>but, well, at current rate, we need to do 30 revisions on that saturday
14:48<planetmaker>better bring your laptops then
14:48<frosch123>i do not have one :p
14:48<planetmaker>you have 6Mbit upload and 0.7mbit download ;-)
14:48<@Rubidium>frosch123: 30 revisions of (trivial) commits is easy
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>well, it's 10 days, and 54 revisions, so we need about 5 revisions per day
14:49<planetmaker>one is always translator. So 4 "real" ones
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>we could have 10 scripted commits, and make a countdown like on silvester ;)
14:49<@Rubidium>planetmaker: we don't need 6Mbit upstream, and shared with 30 people and it's still enough
14:49<frosch123>we could break regression a few times
14:50<@Rubidium>frosch123: or just add a few doxygen comments :)
14:50<planetmaker>Rubidium: I didn't actually test it yet whether the speed actually is true ;-)
14:50<frosch123>yeah, fs#3870 is good for two documentation commits
14:51<@Rubidium>and 2 or 3 commits for a release
14:52<@Rubidium>so that's 15 commits, leaves only 39 in ~10 days
14:52<planetmaker>transfer speed seems about right though according to
14:52<@Rubidium>planetmaker: upload is really 10 times as high as download?
14:53<planetmaker>uhm... vice versa ;-)
14:54<@Rubidium>oh, that's plenty then :)
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14:56<Zuu>Hehe, made it possible for road vehicles to overtake (very hacky so far) on bridges, but so far they only drive through the lead vehicle instead of doing a lane change. :-p
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>"drive through overtaking" :p
14:58<planetmaker>sounds crash-prone
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>so... there's a possible feature request: "giant" screenshot of the minimap
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15:07<Zuu>planetmaker: As in OpenTTD crashin or the vehicles?
15:12<planetmaker>vehicles of course :-)
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15:41<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r19947 /trunk/src/table/engines.h: -Doc: Comment engine property tables with engine names. (Krille)
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15:50<Eddi|zuHause>err... what is the criterium to switch between "refittable to: x,y,z" and "refittable to all except: x,y,z"?
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>should probably be a little less than 50-50... because having a list with >10 exceptions is kinda useless...
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16:02<Eddi|zuHause>suggestion: do not list more than 7 exceptions [7 is a magical number for "parallelisation" in the brain]
16:06<@Rubidium>countersuggestion: do not have more than 14 cargos
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>also, it might be useful to put the "except" in black, to visually distinguish it from the cargos
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16:14<b_jonas>this town has six ai airports, but it won't let me build one myself because of noise concerns
16:15<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r19948 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Doc: Comments about display units missed height unit. (Krille)
16:16<planetmaker>b_jonas: noise also is a function of distance to the town centre.
16:16<planetmaker>and of course existing airports count
16:16<planetmaker>so it might be bad luck for you.
16:16<planetmaker>also the airport size counts
16:17<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r19949 /trunk/src/ (bridge.h engine_type.h table/bridge_land.h table/engines.h): -Doc: Mention tricky units (like speed) more often and more consistently.
16:17<b_jonas>planetmaker: yep
16:17<b_jonas>it's the distance that matters here
16:17<b_jonas>I want to build one near the center
16:17<b_jonas>the ai airports are farther
16:17<planetmaker>that nearly never works
16:18<planetmaker>where (except in Berlin) do you have airports near the city centre?
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16:19<b_jonas>not that near
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16:31<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: which of the "supplies" is reasonable to transport in a tanker wagon?
16:32<frosch123>supplies for mines in tanker wagons should explode regulary
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16:41<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: FMSP definitely, ENSP maybe, MNSP probably not
16:41<andythenorth>SVSP undecided
16:44<PeterT>night Wolf01
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17:15<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: do you have an overview for vehicle set designers, which cargo typically goes in what kind of wagons?
17:15<andythenorth>not really
17:16<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: there's this:
17:16<andythenorth>but vehicle choices are the preserve of set designer at this time :)
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17:19<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but there should be some kind of guide...
17:20<andythenorth>feel free to make suggestions :P
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---Logclosed Wed Jun 09 00:00:22 2010