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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-06-10

---Logopened Thu Jun 10 00:00:23 2010
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02:05<charanjeet>hi
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03:44<Ammler>morgen sorgen...
03:49<borgfish>mach den otto
04:27<Eddi|zuHause>"Guten Morgen, liebe Sorgen" isn't from Otto...
04:37<borgfish>oh my bad
04:37<borgfish>mike krüger?
04:50<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly sure it's Jürgen von der Lippe
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05:02<__ln__>a zuuh
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07:58<Eddi|zuHause>so... which constant would i have to tweak in order to make acceleration on straight track take longer?
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08:01<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: see void Train::UpdateAcceleration(), train_cmd.cpp:445
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08:02<Yexo>you could edit the *4 there for example to *3
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08:06<Eddi|zuHause>that's only for the original acceleration model...
08:07<Eddi|zuHause>Train::UpdateSpeed(), uint accel <-- this seems like a more appropriate place
08:08<Eddi|zuHause>2897: uint spd = this->subspeed + accel;
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>as this applies to both acceleration models
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>this formula has an implied factor: v_new = v_old + a * delta t
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>where delta t is the time one tick (?) takes
08:11<Yexo>yes
08:11<Yexo>did you look at ground_vehicle.cpp already (GetAcceleration() ?
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, skimmed it
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>have seen that part of the code many times
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>not entirely sure why there is a /2 in the end when accelerating, but not when braking
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09:12<@Belugas>day all
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09:48<major>hi lada
09:48<major>lads
09:49<major>i have a question do i need original deluxe files? to play open ttd?
09:49<+glx>no
09:50<major>ok
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10:29<@Belugas>rainy day
10:29<@Belugas>boring
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10:45<Eddi|zuHause>Chuck Norris has abused priests as a child
10:45<orudge_>It took me a moment to parse that sentence
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>might be more ambiguous in simplified english grammar
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>you can have it in german grammar: "Chuck Norris has as child priests abused", if that helps you ;)
10:48<@peter1138>that would be stupid grammar
10:48<@peter1138>it makes no sense
10:48<orudge_>oh no, I understood it, my brain just didn't quite "get" the joke
10:49<orudge_>because, y'know, it's slow that like that, and it isn't even 10am yet
10:50<Eddi|zuHause>mid-west time zone?
10:51<orudge_>Indeed
10:51<orudge_>seeing as I am in the midwest
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12:23<CIA-2>OpenTTD: smatz * r19951 /trunk/src/waypoint.cpp: -Fix [FS#3869]: close buoy's vehicle list when the buoy is deleted
12:23<SmatZ>CIA-2 is lagged
12:24<CIA-2>OpenTTD: smatz * r19952 /trunk/src/waypoint_gui.cpp: -Fix: do not close list of waypoint's trains when the waypoint view is closed - unify behaviour with other station types
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12:34<CIA-2>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19953 /trunk/src/vehicle_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#3874]: Don't show an error message when trying to start/stop a crashed plane.
12:37<elho>hmm, i might be blind, but on http://wiki.openttd.org/YAPP_track_layouts_%28advanced%29#Advanced_two-way_station the caption below the picture sais "Notice the use of one-way signals", but AIUI the one-way path signals have that red/white sign attached (as in the other uictures) and i can not spot any of those in that picture :o
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12:46<frosch123>elho: that is a very old picture. during development the one-way signals had yellow bars, as those sprites already exisited, while the current ones were not yet drawn
12:46<frosch123>feel free to update the image :)
12:47<frosch123>(the rightmost signals in both driving directions are one-way)
12:48<frosch123>oh, and the opposite signals on those tracks are not needed
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12:56<elho>ah, i see. i was wondering why there (also in other pictures) where the yellow bars despite the signal dialog not showing them, but thought that was how it looks :)
13:02<elho>is there a way to get around the train-length gap
13:02<elho>err, no
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13:06<elho>rather a way (as there are no intermediate pb signals) to make trains drive closely one after another through path sections? ie. with a block signal on every second tile they are closely packed, a pbs section would make the following trains wait until the first cleared it (assuming other paths blocked by trains from the other direction), right?
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13:27<Yexo>just place the pbs also closer together
13:40<elho>i thought that would mean trains blocking junctions if they stop at one that is too close after it
13:41<elho>but thinking about it, it should at least work where the number of available paths is not lower than before
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r19954 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: croatian - 3 changes by UnderwaterHesus
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: danish - 10 changes by beruic
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: french - 58 changes by ElNounch
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: irish - 107 changes by tem
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 103 changes by mantaray
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13:59<@Belugas>SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT!!!!
13:59<@Belugas>MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERDE!!!
13:59<@Belugas>i hate tjhose guys
14:00<@Belugas>they chage specs and behaviours
14:00<@Belugas>and there is not a singhle warning about that
14:00<@Belugas>NOWHERE!@
14:00<@Belugas>two days i've been strufggling with that memory corruption
14:00<@Belugas>TWO DAYS
14:00<@Belugas>not even my freaking fault!
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14:08<FauxFaux>Java. *runs*
14:10<Hirundo>Java. *crashes* <- fixed it for you
14:10<andythenorth>evening
14:15<elho>that's a good fix indeed, you even get all the memory back, it ate :D
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14:30<andythenorth>seems quiet
14:30<andythenorth>perhaps I haven't been talking to myself much :P
14:32<frosch123>what should I say? i am failing on gui code again :p
14:34*andythenorth is not doing TTD at the moment
14:35<frosch123>oh sorry, i misread the topic :p
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14:54<elho>hmm, 1.0.1 makes a slight crackling sound during sfx playback, 0.6.2 does not :/
14:55<@peter1138>default sample rate changed from 11025 to 44100, iirc
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15:03<planetmaker>hi
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15:04<elho>yes, that probably is the problem, now i just gotta find the setting for it :)
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15:25<elho>but that seems to be the hard part
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15:39<elho>and sound.cpp seems to set 11025 Hz for old sounds, sdl_s.cpp however has 44100 Hz hardcoded
15:40<elho>(at least as default)
15:41<welshdragon>*sigh*
15:41<welshdragon>http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=101063&p=1281924#p1281580
15:43<orudge_>elho: you can edit the frequency in openttd.cfg, I believe
15:43<orudge_>should you want to for some reason
15:45<elho>orudge_: that was the first place i looked, but did not find any setting looking like it (searched for sound,audio,sample,rate,hz,44100,11025)
15:45<orudge_>you could also manually resample the TTD sounds to 44.1KHz so they sound "nicer", and then create your own sounds package, but that might be a slightly more complicated way of doing things :)
15:45<orudge_>elho: hmm, well
15:46<elho>but i just found a commandline argument, just not yet how to specify the parameters with it:
15:46<elho> -s drv = Set sound driver (see below) (param bufsize,hz)
15:47<orudge_>bufsize = the buffer size, typically 4096 or 8192 or so
15:47<orudge_>hz = frequency, typically 44,100
15:47<elho>no, i meant the syntax
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15:48<elho>but trial and error revealed: sdl:hz=11025
15:48<orudge_>ah
15:49<elho>and the config has a sounddriner setting, so i'll try sticking that in there...
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15:52<elho>ah, that works :)
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16:05<Eddi|zuHause><elho> is there a way to get around the train-length gap <-- the typical solution is make the exit of the junction double tracked, and merge them after the first signal
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>or triple, if your trains are longer
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16:09<Wolf01>hi
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16:16<elho>Eddi|zuHause: ah, i see. now that i have 1.0 backported and running without crackling sound, i can start to actually play with them a bit. :)
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16:21<elho>are there also yapp variants of mainline prioritisation/acceleration lines?
16:21<Ammler>using trainlength gap is just a recommendation, you don't need to do it that way...
16:21<elho>i do not want deadlocks either ;)
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>no, path signals aren't really useful for priorisation
16:23<Ammler>and you can simply combine path signals with blocksignals to make prios
16:25<elho>just wish there was a smart priorisation thingy, tuning those setups to train length and speed is so tedious...
16:26<Ammler>if you use trainlength signal gaps, not really :-)
16:27<elho>that defeats the whole idea of packing trains densely to maximise line usage ;)
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16:36<elho>is the ttd savegame support still incomplete in 1.0.1 or does "data integrity error" actually mean that my old savegames are currupted?
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16:38<Ammler>you should be able to load every save from earlier revisions inclusive tto/ttd save games (also ttdpatch should be possible)
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16:45<Eddi|zuHause>ttdpatch is not guaranteed to work, if certain advanced features are used
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>gnah... i just hit "x" on a screenshot :p
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>... didn't have the desired effect :(
16:49<Wolf01>happens...
16:50<Ammler>hehe, as long as you don't scroll around with the right mouse button :-)
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16:50<Eddi|zuHause>i'm beyond that point for years...
16:54<elho>oops, s/ttd/tto/
16:56<elho>no, no patch or anything, that was plain old tt i had back then. its *.sv1 files i have - i copied them (from a diskette i guess :P) to my ~/.openttd/save years ago to find them not supported. now with the tto support i though i'd take a look
17:02<@Belugas>feelings woo whoo woo feelings
17:02<@Belugas>ho... faling.. sorrry
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17:06<Eddi|zuHause>elho: theoretically they should load, yes
17:13<Yexo>elho: if you keep getting that error on tto/ttd (not ttdpatch) savegames upload them to the bugtracker so someone can take a look at them
17:14<elho>yeah, the the floppy from back then might as well been bad
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17:18<Eddi|zuHause>elho: but usually they detect that on copying
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>(usually "data error" or "crc32 error"
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17:20<sashimi>hello everybody
17:20<Terkhen>hi sashimi
17:20<sashimi>i am utterly new to openttd
17:20<sashimi>haven't yet even tried the game
17:21<sashimi>i randomly came accross the so called hd gfx
17:21<sashimi>are they worth the hassle ?
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17:21<Eddi|zuHause>sashimi: no
17:22<sashimi>the original gfx really look shitty
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>you won't get fancy 3D animation...
17:23<sashimi>oh i'm not talking about fancy 3D
17:24<sashimi>if only nice looking 2D
17:24<sashimi>simcity 2K looked pretty nice in it's time
17:24<sashimi>:)
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>to the original question: no, the 32bpp graphics might look nice in places, but they are not finished, and they are _very_ troublesome to install
17:25<elho>.oO(flipping the map around in 90 degree steps would be 3D heaven already ;) )
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17:28<sashimi>ah ok
17:28<sashimi>really early stage then
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17:40<elho>hmm, thinking i'd start with something easy trying pbs, i built the dual track as in the wiki (TTBOMK ;)), but it does not work as i expected: http://stranger.elho.net/yapp-fail1.png shouldn't train 85 overtake train 84?
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>overtaking doesn't work very well, try to avoid it...
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>and you likely have a track penalty problem
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>2 reverse signals + 2 track changes are penalised worse than 7 tiles of reserved track
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>and your train looks reversed...
17:43<elho>ah, changes are penalised, that's good. (the wiki somewhere claimed that the setup is bad as trains would keep alternating :P)
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17:44<elho>heh, yeah, i'm driving them on the right hand side :)
17:45<elho>i'm actually not after overtaking that way, just thought it was the most simple thing to play with :o
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18:02<Eddi|zuHause>elho: yes, they will do that
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>the problem is that there is no way to tell "only overtake if train ahead is more than 30km/h slower"
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18:20<elho>well that's actuassy of no concern for me, the lev4 is strong enough to do a constant 643km/h and that is why i am not really interested in overtaking ;)
18:21<Zuu>Another thing you want with overtaking is that the trains stay in the overtake "lane" long enough that the back of that train pass the front of the overtaken train, or the overtakning train will cut the path for the overtaken train.
18:22<Zuu>Some pre-signal magic can maybe implement that, but the question is how ugly will it look.
18:22<elho>sensor field and connection lines (that can be laid everywhere) to do easier priorisation than laying feedback tracks with pre-signals would be what i'd need. (or smart trains that automatically accelerate so that they hit the gap in the mainline traffic ;))
18:23<Zuu>Eg, what is needed is a gap acceptance model. :-D
18:23<Zuu>Which happen to be a major part of my master thesis :-p
18:23<elho>yeah, that ugliness is what my sensor/signalling cable idea tries to circumvent :)
18:23<elho>heh
18:26<elho>uh, i just had an idea how the priorisation could be enhanced to approach the gap detection with a lot more ugliness :D
18:27<Terkhen>good night
18:27<Zuu>A gap detector + accelertaion area can be quite easily be setup with pre-signals. However you will need to configure it for the current speed limits of your trains.
18:28<Zuu>+ acceleration etc.
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18:28<elho>have a long acceleration line, so that every train is doing top speed, after that have a whole array of priorisation setups, each having different length lanes that merge the main line, the feedback lines connecting to different points of the main line determining which of them the train takes depending on the position of the gap on the hain line
18:29<Zuu>Sure, and blow up a couple of towns in the process.
18:30<elho>Zuu: i've been doing that (the simple one) and using sharp bends to force trains leaving the station at different speeds back to a similar level
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18:31<elho>i've ever since wished for a "buy out town" option that avoids the bribe 3-4 times, save / reload if detected cycle :P
18:32<Zuu>Not sure if it works the same in OpenTTD physics but IRL, with lower speeds the minimum gap length in time will decrease.
18:32<elho>(yes, i know there's magic bulldozer, but that's cheating ;))
18:33<Zuu>(that is lowering the speed on the main-line)
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18:34<Zuu>night
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18:36<elho>when taking acceleration of the merging train into account?
18:37<elho>(and braking, of course, the instant-stop signals in openttd aren't too realistic ;))
18:42<elho>thinking about it, the path reservation is
18:43<elho>bah, my enter key is too enthusiastic :P
18:44<elho>thinking about it, the path reservation is a good foundation speed limiting signals could build on, ie. go gradually slower if the way is blocked anyway instead of rushing to do a full stop
18:57<Wolf01>'night
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19:11<elho>what is the deal with the option for trains to stop as the near/middle/far end, does that have any other effects than how it (de-)accelerates?
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19:18<Eddi|zuHause>marginal, mostly eyecandy
19:19<Eddi|zuHause>i suggest setting the default to "middle"
19:22<elho>yes, that seemed like a sane default to me, too
19:23<elho>and then manually chaning it to near for orders to non-roro stations
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>people have been suggesting, for terminus stations, far end is the best
19:30<Yexo>"near end" being the most efficient for terminus stations would be more intuitive
19:31<Eddi|zuHause>the issue was trains unblocking the junction faster when using the far end
19:31<Eddi|zuHause>plus, it's more realistic
19:35<Yexo>but when the train leaves the station it'll block the exit longer if you set them to middle/far end
19:35<Yexo>unless you have signals in front of each platform
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19:37<elho>i have no junctions on terminus stations, those are all point to point feeders
19:37<elho>so near end could still be good with these, i guess
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20:05<tartanterrorist>guys, whats the criteria to open the monorail option? a certain amount of money or a certain amount of time?
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20:07<tartanterrorist>anyone?
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20:11<Eddi|zuHause>monorails appear after a certain date (if you don't use newgrfs, most disable monorail)
20:11<Eddi|zuHause>then, you have to click and hold the rail icon, to get to the monorail menu
20:11<tartanterrorist>ah cool
20:11<tartanterrorist>you know what date?
20:11<tartanterrorist>or year
20:11<Eddi|zuHause>short after 2000, i believe
20:12<Eddi|zuHause>maybe 2010
20:12<SmatZ>monorail appears in ~1999
20:12<SmatZ>maglev appears in ~2019
20:12<SmatZ>in temperate climate
20:13<tartanterrorist>bah, 9 years away, how do i cheat and make it available now?
20:13<SmatZ>ctrl+alt+c
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20:14<tartanterrorist>perfect
20:14<tartanterrorist>one last question, is there a reason for oil refinerys having different colours?
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20:15<Eddi|zuHause>factories do that as well
20:16<Eddi|zuHause>it's pure eyecandy
20:16<tartanterrorist>cool cool
20:16<tartanterrorist>thanks
20:16<tartanterrorist>all
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20:19<elho>hmm. is tramway availability encoded in savegames and kept when using it as a scenario?
20:20-!-Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:20<SmatZ>tramway availability is per-company
20:20<SmatZ>(iirc)
20:20<CIA-2>OpenTTD: smatz * r19957 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Codechange: remove VLW_WAYPOINT_LIST
20:20<CIA-2>OpenTTD: smatz * r19958 /trunk/src/ (station.cpp waypoint.cpp): -Codechange: move common code from Waypoint and Station destructors to BaseStation destructor
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20:22<SmatZ>that holds at least for rails - when one company is offered experimental monorail, it can build monoral track
20:22<SmatZ>while other companies can't
20:22<elho>hmm
20:23<elho>is there another way, to just play a completely new game (settings and tram wise ;)) on a map from an old savegame?
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20:24<SmatZ>I think - rename game to .scn, open in SE, use "reset landscape"
20:24<SmatZ>roads and trams could stay
20:24<SmatZ>some, at least
20:24<elho>reset was what i did not do before, let's try...
20:26<elho>(as it was a 1st Jan 1950 savegame without anything cbuilt)
20:29<elho>nope, still no trams
20:31<Yexo>ddi you actually add a tram newgrf in the game? not just in the main menu?
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21:03<elho>duh, when i did, i just closed the dialog sike all the other settings work instead of hitting apply changes :P
21:04<elho>sweet. just hope the crash warning on doing so does not apply to the stock trams ;)
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21:18<@Belugas>applies to anythin you add mid-game
21:18<@Belugas>it might or might not crash
21:19<@Belugas>it's just a chance taken
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---Logclosed Fri Jun 11 00:00:24 2010