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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-06-14

---Logopened Mon Jun 14 00:00:27 2010
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00:56*Vadtec wonders what time Rubidium / TrueBrain usually wake/make their presence known
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02:21<planetmaker>Vadtec: and where does the wiki need a progress bar?
02:21<Vadtec>im not saying it does
02:21<Vadtec>its just a handy feature
02:22<planetmaker>the usual ToDo lists on that wiki are usually quite useless
02:22<planetmaker>created not by the person doing something but by someone who is interested in a feature
02:22<Vadtec>you never know
02:22<Vadtec>like i said
02:22<Vadtec>its just a handy thing
02:23<Vadtec>no harm in offering it to openttd
02:23<planetmaker>given that I've not seen one progress-meeter which is current... yeah
02:24<Vadtec>well, if Rubidium / TrueBrain want to use it, cool, if not, cool
02:24<Vadtec>i wrote it because i have a need for it
02:24<Vadtec>so its gravy for me either way
02:30<planetmaker>try your luck then :-)
02:30<planetmaker>I'd not hold my breath for each of them showing up today, though ;-)
02:31<Vadtec>oh?
02:31<Vadtec>well, whatever
02:31<Vadtec>if i were hard up about it, i would have contacted them on the wiki already
02:31<Vadtec>oddly or not, i havent done that yet :P
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02:37<Terkhen>good morning
02:38<planetmaker>moin Terkhen (this time with tab completion ;-) )
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02:39<@peter1138>planetmaker, you heart the cake?
02:40<planetmaker>yes, it's talking to me
02:44<Terkhen>do cakes have interesting stuff to say?
02:44<planetmaker>eat me! eat me!
02:44<planetmaker>and it mumbles like "regret my calories", but I might have miss-heart
02:44<planetmaker>heard?
02:44<planetmaker>whatever
02:46<planetmaker>irregular verbs suck even more than vaccum does
02:53<@peter1138>heh
02:53<@peter1138>you figured it out ;)
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02:57<Sophira>Hiya.
02:58<planetmaker>thanks for the subtle hint :-)
02:59<Sophira>I'm really sorry for the irrelevancy to this channel, so I'll keep it short: Does OpenBVE have an IRC channel of its own? I'm looking for one but I can't find one.
02:59*planetmaker has no idea what you're talking about
03:00<Sophira>Okay. (It's a train simulator, not related to OpenTTD; I only tried asking here because Google suggests that at least some people in here know about it.)
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03:17<Sophira>I managed to answer the question I wanted. And now I'm installing OpenTTD, heh. (I'm trying out a few different simulators.)
03:18<Sophira>Although I know they're different.
03:19<Sophira>I might be back later :)
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03:35<@peter1138>yeah, why do they put openttd in "simulation"?
03:38<Wizzleby>I'm curious, where else would you put it?
03:42<@peter1138>strategy maybe
03:46<Markk>Swedish Wikipedia: Strategy, English Wikipedia: "Business simulation game".
03:46<Markk>Both are correct in it's own way.
03:55<Eddi|zuHause>i'm really disagreeing with putting it in "strategy"...
03:56<Markk>How come?
03:56<Eddi|zuHause>i'd expect civilization-style games in strategy, but not sim city-style games [which includes OpenTTD]
03:56<Markk>Hmm
03:57<Markk>But you'll have to strategize to make it in OpenTTD.
03:57<Eddi|zuHause>no... not at all...
03:58<Eddi|zuHause>you can drop one single profitable line, and then build only for the beauty of it...
03:58<Markk>Good point.
03:59<Eddi|zuHause>plus, you get a great gameplay experience when you turn off competitors
04:00<Markk>Mhm, when I'm playing on my own I always turn off competitors.
04:01<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but if it were a strategy game, removing competitors would also remove the need for 95% of the strategies
04:01<Eddi|zuHause>which is not the case
04:01<Sacro>Markk: when you turn off competitors you are playing on your own :P
04:02<Markk>I meant single player mode.
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04:12<@peter1138>yes, it doesn't fit strategy very well
04:12<@peter1138>but it fits it better than simulation
04:13<@peter1138>"business simulation" is no better. it doesn't do that either.
04:13<@peter1138>also, chrome sucks :s
04:14<@peter1138>had to kill it as it was 700+200+100+25+25+25+20+15+15+15+15+15MB resident...
04:25<Eddi|zuHause>simulation is a waaaaay better fit than strategy...
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04:27<@peter1138>simulation implies realism
04:27<@peter1138>and we all know where that leads
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04:31<Ammler>every rpm distro does place openttd in strategy
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04:31<Ammler>and it is for sure no simulation :-)
04:32<Ammler>well, maybe you can simulate car traffic with trains
04:36<Ammler>you need strategy to become tycoon against others
04:42<heffer>indeed :D
04:42<heffer>Categories=Game;StrategyGame;
04:43<Ammler>heffer: any idea, why you changed it?
04:43<heffer>did I?
04:44<heffer>i think i just copy over the desktop file
04:44<heffer>lemme take a look
04:45<Ammler>upstream desktop file only defines Game
04:46<@peter1138>probably nothing to do with the .desktop file
04:47<heffer>Ammler, ah i remember why i did it: we have a package called games-menus which generates submenus for the games
04:47<heffer>that doesn't work if the desktop file only specifies games
04:47<heffer>well it would be placed in "Others" then
04:47<heffer>and that's not what it deserves :D
04:48<Ammler>peter1138: the Makefile does write the desktop file which default is Game;
04:48<@peter1138>08:17 < Sophira> I managed to answer the question I wanted. And now I'm installing OpenTTD, heh. (I'm trying out a few different simulators.)
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04:48<@peter1138>Ammler, and that implies it's nothing to do wtih the desktop file, because you wouldn't see it if you were just installing it
04:49<@peter1138>so it's in some package manager under simulation
04:49<Ammler>yes, debian/ubuntu for example
04:49<Ammler>no idea what Gentoo does
04:51<Ammler>peter1138: if you install openttd, it does write the desktop file, where else is the group needed?
04:52<@peter1138>?
04:52<Ammler>imo, it is all about the desktop file :-)
04:52<@peter1138>i don't understand what you are asking
04:53<Ammler>what else then the desktop file should it be related to?
04:53<@peter1138>you still make no sense
04:54<Ammler>well, I just try to tell you that your "[10:46] <peter1138> probably nothing to do with the .desktop file" is wrong
04:54<@peter1138>it's not wrong
04:55<Eddi|zuHause>one pressing reason against strategy is: there is no "victory condition" that you can work your strategy towards...
04:55<@peter1138>i was talking about how sophira found it under simulators in her package manager
04:55<Ammler>what else?
04:55<@peter1138>and categories within a package manager will not have anything to do with .desktop files
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04:55<@peter1138>therefore, "probably nothing to do wtih the .desktop file" is correct
04:56<Ammler>but the desktop file is what matters, imo
04:56<@peter1138>"simulation" isn't mentioned anywhere in the openttd sources except in the debian and os2 installtation stuff
04:56<@peter1138>Ammler, yes, it matters, AFTER it has been installed
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04:56<Ammler>yep :-)
04:57<@peter1138>but afaik, it's not mentioned as "simulation" in any .desktop file
04:57<Ammler>I guess, debian does that, dosen't?
04:57<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: but strategy appears even less...
04:58<@peter1138>Ammler, no.
04:58<Ammler>ah ok, fedora and suse set that to strategy
04:58<Ammler>as only "Game;" is "illegal"
04:59<@peter1138>debian has "Tag: game::strategy" in its package of it, heh
04:59<Ammler>(there)
04:59<@peter1138>it's not illegal, it just means it ends up in Others, and somebody didn't like that
04:59<heffer>so maybe upstream should settle on something there
05:00<@peter1138>we have, "Game" :p
05:00<Ammler>on KDE, it has a ugly effect
05:00<heffer>really? that being?
05:00<@peter1138>KDE *is* an ugly effect
05:01<@peter1138>09:55 < Eddi|zuHause> one pressing reason against strategy is: there is no "victory condition" that you can work your strategy towards...
05:01<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, well, there is
05:01<@peter1138>it's called tycoon status... 1000 points
05:01<Ammler>ah no, the "ugly" effect is that if you have only one App in a group, it shows up in the parent
05:02<@peter1138>Ammler, not my fault KDE is stupid
05:02<Ammler>but with the icon of the parent group instead the icon of the app
05:02<@peter1138>report a bug against KDE i suppose
05:02<Eddi|zuHause>it's a feature ;)
05:02<Ammler>that was quite confusing :-)
05:03<Ammler>peter1138: I like KDE because of the apps, I don't really care about the look and handling that much
05:04<Ammler>rarely using the start menu
05:06<Eddi|zuHause>my current start menu doesn't do this "collapsing" of menu categories anymore
05:06<Eddi|zuHause>i don't really know why
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05:16<planetmaker>hm... reading back the arguments "simulation" is a better fit than "strategy"
05:17<@peter1138>it's not
05:17<@peter1138>business simulation, okay
05:18<planetmaker>which is obviously a sub-division of simulation ;-)
05:19<Ammler>is there a argument for simulation already?
05:24<Ammler>I read only arguments against strategy, none for simulation
05:25<Eddi|zuHause>the argument was "which is closer to TTD: sim city or civilization"
05:37<@peter1138>hmm, openttd's network protocol isn't suited to realtime games :(
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05:40<@peter1138>too much latency
05:40<@peter1138>hmm
05:42<@peter1138>75ms is too much
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05:48<@peter1138>what's a good system? :(
05:52<Eddi|zuHause>zero-latency by quantum-entanglement
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06:31<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, how do you get the idea that that means zero latency?
06:32<Eddi|zuHause>it's a joke, obviously...
06:32<@peter1138>negative latency :D
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06:48<heffer>i once listened to a guy talking about financial it systems and what latency requirements they must meet
06:48<heffer>most of the financial it companies use fibre-optics as copper has too high latency :D
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06:54<@peter1138>and nick leeson was on dial up
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09:11<@Belugas>hello
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12:00<zachanima>which direction is regarded as north?
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12:13<@Belugas>if i'm not mistaken, it would be upper-left
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12:13<@Belugas>or 10:30h
12:13<KenjiE20>officially it's straight up isn't it?
12:13<Yexo>in the openttd code straight up is north
12:14<@Belugas>looks i don't remember that well
12:14<KenjiE20>coop puts it top left
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12:42<fjb>Quak frosch123
12:42<frosch123>moin fjb :)
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12:44<planetmaker>KenjiE20: shall we push for a change? ;-)
12:46*andythenorth andythenorth is north
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12:47*planetmaker 's compass is failing ;-)
12:48<planetmaker>andythenorth: geographic or magnetic? ;-)
12:48<andythenorth>magnetic, definitely
12:48<planetmaker>:-)
12:49<planetmaker>frosch123: Featurette request: 'delete' button in the load game dialogue
12:50<frosch123>ctrl+load? :p
12:50<frosch123>deleting is stupid if there is no confirmation
12:50<frosch123>confirmatio is stupid if you cannot select multiple items
12:50<andythenorth>it would also be useful if ctrl+save quit the current game with no warning
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12:52<planetmaker>frosch123: I don't necessarily subscribe to the last statement. But still
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12:52<planetmaker>it's true, that'd be the next featurette request ;-)
12:52<planetmaker>but when one finds a broken savegame, it'd make sense to just hit delete straight away.
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12:54<frosch123>why should i delete useful testcases? :p
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12:55<planetmaker>:-P
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12:55<planetmaker>frosch123: indeed I keep around some broken ones, too. For that reason :-P
12:55<planetmaker>andythenorth: http://img.openttdcoop.org/images/titlemenu.png <-- it also looks fine with a small border :-)
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r19988 /trunk/src/lang/ (10 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: czech - 12 changes by Hadez
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: dutch - 12 changes by habell
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: finnish - 11 changes by jpx_
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: hungarian - 11 changes by alyr
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: irish - 44 changes by tem
13:47<zachanima>Belugas, I was thinking in the naming of, say, stations
13:47<zachanima>Belugas, regarding north
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14:04<@Belugas>meeeee?
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14:10<zachanima>Belugas, youuuuu
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14:11<@Belugas>whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?
14:12<zachanima>dunno
14:12<zachanima>making a heightmap
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14:14<frosch123>i guess noone knows how deprecated the "industry type" of the AI-station-selection callback is since newindustries
14:18<Yexo>is there any documentation for the values returned by GenericCallbackGetVariable ?
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14:18<frosch123>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Callbacks#AI_construction_purchase_selection_18_ and http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=IndustryTypes
14:18<zachanima>with 16 height levels, do they span #000000 over #111111 to #ffffff ?
14:19<frosch123>FE unknown (only for AI vehicle selection callback) <- no idea what that means
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14:19<Yexo>ai wants to bulid a route but doens't know the source industry, or multiple source industries
14:19<frosch123>either new industries always give fe, or they return the substitute type, or the callback spec is just broken/deprecated
14:20<Yexo>cb18 is broken/deprecated
14:21<frosch123>well for vehicles it is, but i did not notice it was also for stations :)
14:21<Yexo>I didn't notice either till you brought it up now
14:23<frosch123>well, someone on the forums asked about what industrytype to pass for towns :)
14:23<Yexo>I know, but I couldn't find the documentation and forgot to check the callbacks page
14:23<frosch123>i am at findindustrytype of newai.asm now :)
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14:26<__ln__>-12
14:26<frosch123>ok, ttdp does the same as ottd. it just returns the global industryid. no substitute or other stuff involved. i.e. when newindustries are in use the variable is totally useless
14:26<planetmaker>no, it must be an OpenTTD bug. The docu cannot be wrong ;-)
14:27<frosch123>planetmaker: what docu?
14:27<planetmaker>he :-) The newgrf wiki? I thought you checked there ;-)
14:27<planetmaker>(as first, and only then the codes)
14:27<Yexo>yes, but there doesn't exists any documentation for this case (cb 18 with newindustries)
14:27<planetmaker>:-)
14:28<frosch123>83 B source industry type <- that is all :)
14:28<Yexo>no documentation -> check how ttdpatch does it -> conclude both openttd and ttdpatch return useless values
14:28<planetmaker>pretty obvious ;-)
14:28*planetmaker hugs frosch123 and Yexo
14:28<Yexo>returning the substitute industry type seems the most usefull, either that or return FE
14:29<frosch123>yup, maybe we should start a topic at technical discussion to get no answer
14:29<planetmaker>:-D
14:29<Yexo>when we make such a topic now, they can't blame us for not trying when we chose an option in a month
14:30<planetmaker>:-)
14:30<frosch123>so, who wants to?
14:30<Yexo>I'll write something up in a moment
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14:41<frosch123>planetmaker: would you like to spent 20€ for me on cake, anti-alcoholics and meat? or do you think you can spent more without someone of us bursting?
14:42<frosch123>:p
14:42<Yexo>you are coming to planetmakers this weekend too frosch123?
14:42<frosch123>sure
14:42<Yexo>:)
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14:43<frosch123>i counted about 15 people, so quite crowded :)
14:43<Yexo>that many? cool
14:43<Zuu>at the partie?
14:44<frosch123>or only 12? pm should know better
14:44<planetmaker>I'm not 100% sure. I'm quite sure of
14:45<planetmaker>Zuu, __ln__, frosch123 , Yexo , Alberth, Rubidium, TrueBrain, SmatZ, Eddi|zuHause
14:45<planetmaker>I'm still not sure whether Ammler shows up :-)
14:46<Zuu>I bought a new alarm clock which has the funny feature of requring both two AA batteries and an AAA battery to function.
14:46*Zuu hopes Ammler shows up
14:46<planetmaker>nor whether dih shows up
14:46<planetmaker>^
14:46<frosch123>i also counter planetmaker and fjb
14:46<planetmaker>right :-) fjb has not a far drive :-)
14:47<frosch123>and i thought there would be 5 dutch
14:47<planetmaker>Hirundo said he couldn't make it :-(
14:47<fjb>I will be there.
14:47<planetmaker>great :-)
14:47<planetmaker>let's hope the weather will be slightly better than the forecast
14:47<Zuu>How's the forecast?
14:48<planetmaker>occasional showers
14:48<Zuu>ok
14:48<planetmaker>~18°C
14:48<planetmaker>not very summer-like
14:48<Zuu>All I miss in gore tex is just gloves and shoes. :-)
14:48<fjb>German summer. :)
14:49<planetmaker>he... forecast improved since this morning ;-)
14:49<planetmaker>only 22% rain chance instead of 60% :-P
14:49<planetmaker>tells how reliable it is ;-)
14:49<Zuu>:-)
14:50<Zuu>Bringing an unmbrella is probably a better way to keep the rain away than believing in the forecasts. :-p
14:50<fjb>What do I have to bring along?
14:50<planetmaker>haha @ Zuu . That's what I keep telling, too :-)
14:50<planetmaker>fjb: maybe some cake and / or something for the BBQ?
14:51<planetmaker>maybe you can make a nice salat or so?
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14:51*fjb thinks about buying a small English dictionary.
14:51<planetmaker>:-)
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14:51<planetmaker>I've three around here
14:51<fjb>Which day is the meeting? Saturday?
14:52<Zuu>Yep
14:52<frosch123>oh, i thought we would have three tables, for gemans, dutch, and the poor rest
14:52*planetmaker bought today a "Bierzeltgarnitur" ;-)
14:52*Zuu google translates..
14:52<planetmaker>So for 6 .. 8 people there's yet another table and seats :-)
14:52<fjb>Is it usable without the beer? :-)
14:52<planetmaker>fjb: maybe maybe...
14:53<frosch123>Zuu: better use image search :)
14:53<planetmaker>Zuu: party table + 2 benches
14:53<Zuu>For some reason german -> english was the default on google translate. :-)
14:53<planetmaker>http://www.roller.de/sortiment/detail/-/45/4508/1/-/-/rk/002105043900.html
14:53<planetmaker>^^ that exact one
14:55<welshdragon>aah, #openttd
14:55<planetmaker>always on topic
14:55<planetmaker>:-P
14:55<welshdragon>i forget i'm in here :P
14:55<planetmaker>we do, too :-P
14:56<planetmaker>but you returned :-)
14:56<welshdragon>haha
14:56<Zuu>Btw, is alcohol sold in regular drug stores (ammerican for the local place where you buy food, electronics etc etc)? Or do one have to visit a liquor store?
14:57<welshdragon>i probably wouldn't have noticed if i gained ops either
14:57<planetmaker>Zuu: you can get it basically everywhere
14:58<planetmaker>groceries, gas stations...
14:58<Zuu>Ok
14:58<Zuu>Opposite of here then.
14:58<planetmaker>yeah :-) But you need to have proof of age with you
14:58<planetmaker>(if you look too young)
15:00<Zuu>True, but a id-card is always usefull to have with you.
15:00<planetmaker>yeah
15:00<planetmaker>but honestly, you don't have to go shopping here for the beverages
15:01<planetmaker>Make a small donation here ;-)
15:01<Zuu>Ok :-)
15:01<planetmaker>I'd only expect someone who comes by car to bring drinks or food
15:01<planetmaker>(possibly)
15:02<planetmaker>otherwise it's a real hassle
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15:05<andythenorth>evening
15:05<fjb>Moin andythenorth
15:06<planetmaker>moin andythenorth
15:06<Zuu>moin
15:07<__ln__>"vielen Dank für Ihre Online-Ticket-Buchung bei www.bahn.de."
15:07<fjb>planetmaker: Where in Braunschweig do I find you?
15:08<fjb>The DB is friendly online. :-)
15:08*andythenorth should start BANDIT
15:08<andythenorth>http://www.roadtransport.com/blogs/big-lorry-blog/2010/06/wads-monster-aussie-roadtrain.html
15:09<fjb>Cute truck.
15:09<welshdragon>andythenorth: i thought you were having a break?
15:09<Zuu>Nice, the germans are at least cleaver enough to use the ASL alphabet.
15:10<andythenorth>I am...ish
15:10<andythenorth>FIRS goes on....
15:10<andythenorth>....endlessly
15:10<andythenorth>I might get to 0.2 in the next few months
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15:14<frosch123>http://www.roadtransport.com/blogs/big-lorry-blog/2010/06/06/Unloading%20Cattle.jpg <- looks interesting
15:14<frosch123>but idoubt they also jump in like that :)
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15:15<Yexo>http://devs.openttd.org/~yexo/cb18.txt
15:15<Yexo>did I miss anything important?
15:15<planetmaker>[21:09] <Zuu> Nice, the germans are at least cleaver enough to use the ASL alphabet. <-- which one?
15:16<planetmaker>or rather, what's the "ASL alphabet"?
15:16<Zuu>pm: (Deutschschweizer Gebärdensprache
15:16<Zuu>http://www.sgb-fss.ch/r/d/abc_de.pdf <---
15:16<planetmaker>ah :-)
15:16<frosch123>Yexo: looks fine
15:17<Zuu>It's pretty much the same alphabet that they use in ASL which I learned last summer when I went to Canada. In Sweden about half of the letters are different.
15:17<planetmaker>oh, that must suck, if it's so much different
15:18<planetmaker>Yexo: reading that now... your proposal to return the substitute type seems reasonable
15:19<planetmaker>it only is important for selecting this or that station type, right?
15:19<Yexo>it's only used when an AI wants to build a newgrf station
15:19<Zuu>http://home.swipnet.se/~w-84007/HANDALFABETET.GIF <-- the swedish one
15:19<Yexo>in that case the newgrf selects which station to build
15:19<frosch123>planetmaker: the callback also supplies the cargotype
15:20<frosch123>so likely it is only used to match the graphics of specific industries, which fails in any case with new industries or opengfx
15:20<frosch123>s/it/industry type/
15:22<planetmaker>why would it fail for OpenGFX?
15:23<frosch123>the industries look different? so the station cannot match them
15:23<frosch123>e.g. isr coal station looks like original coal mine
15:24<planetmaker>well... but that's not an issue. At least I never found it one :-)
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15:24<planetmaker>It's a station. It may look different
15:24<elho>the game mechanics page has train acceleration formulas giving km/h/day, are there ones that give topspeed at Nth tile? (or data needed for conversion like km/tile and h/day)
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15:24<frosch123>artits can come up with a lot non-issues :p
15:25<Zuu>elho, yep it is possible to do the conversion though I don't remember where it is documented.
15:25<Zuu>Other than in some SuperLib function.
15:26<Zuu>http://noai.openttd.org/svn/lib-super/engine.nut
15:26<elho>yeah, utsl always works, but might be the slowest solution ;)
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15:27<Zuu>It says "X km/h => X/27 tiles/day
15:27<Zuu>" in a comment there.
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15:28<frosch123>Priavte <- i always wonder how people can misspell function names, and misspellt them the same on every occurence
15:28<fjb>Cut and paste...
15:29<Zuu>Or rather completion..
15:29<frosch123>must be :)
15:29<Zuu>Thanks for the find though.
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15:40<elho>Zuu: thanks to that pointer searching for tiles/day i also found http://ftp.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=48512
15:42<elho>and 1/(74*2*3/4/192/16) is about 27.676
15:52<SpComb>lolwut, ftp.tt-forums.net
15:52<SpComb>where did you get that
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15:56<elho>oh, heh. didn't even see that. blame google ;)
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16:03<elho>hmm, on the bottom of http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics#Vehicle_speeds , don't the table and picture contradict each other? the picture shows cl2 and a train going at 132 km/h, the table cl 2 is 111 km/h. or am i missing sth?
16:03<elho>s/table/table sais/
16:13<Yexo>the table+text is not completely accurate, the actual function is to determine the max speed in curves is more difficult
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16:15<elho>has it been written down somewhere?
16:16<Yexo>http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/file/3b01d0519d54/src/train_cmd.cpp#l327 <- in the code
16:16<Yexo>I think it comes down to this:
16:16<Yexo>num_turns = count the number of turns the vehicle makes
16:16<Yexo>that is 4 in the image on that wiki page
16:17<Yexo>then count the number of wagons between the first and last bend + 1
16:17<Yexo>(there are 10 wagons, all between the first and last curve)
16:18<Yexo>then commpute "value = num_wagon_between_curves / num_turns" rounded down to an integer value
16:18<Yexo>in the image it'd be "value = 11 / 3 = 3"
16:19<Yexo><Yexo> num_turns = count the number of turns the vehicle makes <- actually substract 1 from the number of turns
16:19<Yexo>then ues value as lookup in the table
16:19<Yexo>value 3 -> 132 km/h for railroad
16:20<Yexo>it'd be nice if you could write that down in a nice way on that wiki page
16:20*Yexo quits spamming #openttd
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16:23<elho>ah, i also see where that 232 - .... formula from the coop guys comes from, the clamp part is what their wiki does not mention
16:25<elho>Yexo: yes, i will note it down for myself anyway (i'm playing a few days a year and surely can not remember that during a longer pause ;)), so i'll be able to contribute it back :)
16:30<elho>Yexo: my goel is to combine that with the acceleration formula, to get cl values that make sense on tiles after station and depot exits, where the required length is capped by the acceleration
16:34<planetmaker>elho: you might also feel to fix the wiki :-)
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16:42<elho>planetmaker: <elho> [...] so i'll be able to contribute it back :) just said so ;)
16:42<planetmaker>:-) sorry, missed it :-)
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16:43<fjb>Busy making the next planaet? :-)
16:43<planetmaker>selective reading: first sentence, then last ;-)
16:43<planetmaker>which reminds me...
16:43<planetmaker>reading!
16:44<planetmaker>I guess I'll resort to the same scheme: abstract and conclusions only ;-)
16:45<frosch123>if they are the same, you do not need to read the rest :p
16:46<planetmaker>:-)
16:46<VVG>Is there a limit on how many different vehicles sets I can load in one game? I have quite a few train sets and many other grfs, and if I add US set, inside running game, my ships transfrom into some random sprites. I had same problem with George's long vehicles before, though I just gave up Lvs :(
16:46<Zuu> hmm, good reminds me that I should make sure my conclusions are extra good well written in my thesis.
16:46<planetmaker>VVG: then you ignored the big red warning box about changing newgrfs in a running game
16:46<Zuu>And indeed, that's how I approach a long report as well.
16:47<VVG>I sure did
16:47<frosch123>and likely you did not enable support for multiple grf sets
16:47<VVG>i did
16:47<VVG>other sets are working fine
16:47<planetmaker>the warning was there for a reason
16:49<planetmaker>especially in the absense of "enable multiple newgrf sets"
16:49-!-ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:49<planetmaker>*newgrf engine sets
16:50<planetmaker>then different sets may overwrite eachother
16:50<planetmaker>which then results in basically a trashed game
16:50<planetmaker>it's not a newgrf fault. It's not an openttd fault
16:51<frosch123>night
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16:52<planetmaker>such destructive interferences may not be majore with two sets, but surely become more and more visible if there are too many
16:52<planetmaker>but there's no hard limit
16:52<planetmaker>it depends upon the individual newgrfs, what they define and expect to find
16:53<VVG>seems i guessed right, it's a pity :(
16:53<planetmaker>what did you guess?
16:53<VVG>that it's a mix of grfs i have that is at fault here
16:53<VVG>asked here to make sure
16:54<Zuu>Night
16:54-!-Zuu [Zuu@c-d2f1e655.510-8-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:54<planetmaker>you need to a) enable "multiple newgrf engine sets" from the main menu and b) select ALL newgrfs you want to use in the game and c) only then start the new game
16:54<planetmaker>then you most probably won't have the problems, even with the very same newgrfs, that you have now
16:54<VVG>they still can conflict :(
16:54<planetmaker>it's all a matter of proper order
16:55<VVG>proper order would be?
16:55<planetmaker>a) b) and c) in that exact order
16:55<planetmaker>you cannot fix your existing savegame
16:56<planetmaker>one might try with reset_engines in the console, but not sure whether it'll help
16:57<planetmaker>hm... maybe it's a good idea to allow changing newgrfs on an existing game only in debug mode :-)
16:58<Ammler>everyone would run openttd in debug mode then :-P
16:58<planetmaker>that's what I fear the result would be
16:59<Ammler>I think, the red warning is more then enough.
16:59<planetmaker>*should* be.
16:59<VVG>They still can conflict, even with a,b and being true. :(
16:59<planetmaker>Do they?
17:00<planetmaker>Yes, they can conflict. But MUCH less likely
17:00<VVG>i have two ships that look like info button icon
17:01<planetmaker>a good guideline is though: one trainset, one, two, three road sets, one ship set, on plane set and that's it for vehicles
17:01*elho is happy that he likes the stock gfx better anyway ;P
17:02<planetmaker>VVG: maybe they look that way even without any other newgrf except your ship newgrf?
17:02<planetmaker>and please give me your newgrf list, I'd like to see that :-)
17:02-!-tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-160-83.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
17:03<planetmaker>or maybe your savegame. easiest
17:03<VVG>they look ok with just ship grf
17:04<VVG>depending of grfs loaded stuff looks differently. I noticed such mix ups only with george' lvs (some time ago) and ships right now, though no idea, which ship set it is, i have both fish and newships
17:04<VVG>wait a sec
17:05<VVG>http://img808.imageshack.us/i/clipboard02x.jpg/
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17:07<planetmaker>wow.
17:07<planetmaker>And do you really use all those newgrf concurrently?
17:09<VVG>trying to! :)
17:10<@Belugas>and i'm sure you are fully aware of wheat each and everyone of those grfs are adding to the game, don't you?
17:10<planetmaker>can you give me the savegame?
17:11<planetmaker>though I'm sure I don't have all those newgrs, but still
17:11<@Belugas>meanwhile, me goes home
17:11<@Belugas>bye all
17:11<planetmaker>have a good evening, Belugas
17:11<VVG>i mostly am, since i had to go through all the avaible grfs i have to pick them
17:12<Ammler>nice list
17:13<fjb>I suspect the problem is NewShips and NewShips ECS extension together with the multi vehicle sets feature.
17:13<VVG>http://rapidshare.com/files/399063234/Campbell___Co.__17th_Oct_2127.sav.html
17:13<fjb>Bye Belugas
17:14<VVG>i once had some industry sprites morphed, after trying to fix long vehicles by trying various combinations of grfs in a running game
17:16<Ammler>you should also try to start with fewer, adding newgrfs during game is quite easier than removing
17:17<fjb>Best is not to change the grfs of a running game at all, unless you really know what you are doing.
17:18<Ammler>in his case, he doesn't :-)
17:19<VVG>hmm, added us set after newly loaded game, now ships look fine
17:22<planetmaker>I don't see any info sprites either
17:23<planetmaker>but indeed: removing newgrf is even worse than adding new ones, which is most often ok
17:23<andythenorth>Brick Transport Tycoon: http://www.flickr.com/groups/1239848@N21/
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17:27<VVG>here are george's lvs http://img813.imageshack.us/i/clipboard03.jpg/
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17:32<planetmaker>interesting. I get the same
17:32<planetmaker>they glitch. heavily
17:33<planetmaker>they didn't always do that...
17:33<VVG>i removed spain set from that list, in a game last screenshot from, and they stopped glitching
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17:36<VVG>i guess not many people play with such a long grf list?
17:37<planetmaker>VVG: long lists tend to create problems at one place or another
17:37<planetmaker>But whether many use it or not... hard to tell
17:39<fjb>Long lists are possible if you know what you are doing. Some experimenting and learning from that is helpful. And don't change too many things at once.
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17:56<Guest282>hey-ho
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18:11<Eddi|zuHause><planetmaker> tells how reliable it is ;-) <-- weather forecast beyond 3 days is as reliable as betting on a football game...
18:12<fjb>Too many molecules in the air to get their habits sorted out.
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18:13<__ln__>I demand pure molecule-free air.
18:14<fjb>Rent a place on moon.
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18:16<planetmaker>good night
18:27<SmatZ>good night, planetmaker
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19:08<PeterT>interesting hostmask ;-)
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---Logclosed Tue Jun 15 00:00:28 2010