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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-06-15

---Logopened Tue Jun 15 00:00:29 2010
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03:03<Terkhen>good morning
03:03<SmatZ>morning Terkhen
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06:00<@peter1138>real toyland!
06:05<Eddi|zuHause>real toys are the best toys!
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06:06<Eddi|zuHause>i love the fact that he has "done" putting "snow" and "desert" into the landscape, and "only" needs to implement "desert not showing as snow" :p
06:07<Terkhen>I like toyland as it is right now
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06:41<TheYeIIowDucK>so many idlers?
06:43<planetmaker>so many impatient people
06:44<planetmaker>nevertheless: 'hello'
06:46<TheYeIIowDucK>oh, yeah, forgot
06:46<TheYeIIowDucK>IRC = idle chat
06:48<TheYeIIowDucK>someone knows how does 32bpp works?
06:49<Ammler>nobody is idle, most people just don't like you
06:49<TheYeIIowDucK>morning, i guess
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06:50<planetmaker>ho andythenorth :-)
06:51<dihedral>hey hey
06:51<Ammler>heya legoianer
06:51<Ammler>sali dih :-)
06:52<planetmaker>hey ho dihedral and Ammler
06:52<Ammler>love cake baker :-P
06:53<planetmaker>:-) You watched the video I linked ;-)
06:53<Ammler>I didn't find the "link", but yes
06:56<planetmaker>so... will you make it on Saturday? :-)
07:03<Eddi|zuHause>both of you ;)
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07:06<dihedral>i am still not sure
07:06<dihedral>might know by tonight
07:06<dihedral>or tomorrow
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07:11<TrueBrain>or the day after
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07:11<TrueBrain>or the day after that
07:11<TrueBrain>well ... for sure we will know Sunday :D
07:11<planetmaker>haha :-)
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>are you really sure? the likelyhood of time travel is not necessarily zero
07:12<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: I personally, am really sure
07:14*andythenorth is expecting ponies on Saturday :P
07:18<planetmaker>if you bring one, andythenorth ...
07:19*andythenorth is hoping for some fields for the ponies
07:19<andythenorth>mr frosch was working on them but got a bit stuck
07:19<fjb>planetmaker has a garden. :-)
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>about 2x3m? ;)
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07:34<planetmaker>well... there's more space behind the house, Eddi|zuHause :-)
07:34<planetmaker>it's not "my" garden, but... usuable :-)
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09:28<@Belugas>hello all
09:30<Terkhen>hi Belugas
09:32<@Belugas>mister Terkhen, I salute you :)
09:36<andythenorth>hi Belugas
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10:54<GVV>in my current FIRS game i have a serviced oil wells, that announces imminent closure and i don't understand why :(. Is this intended?
10:56<De_Ghosty>random events
10:57<planetmaker>it shouldn't.
10:57<De_Ghosty>or you didn't service it well enough
10:57<planetmaker>if serviced
10:57<planetmaker>at least serviced well
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10:58<GVV>it has very low production so atleast one train is pretty much always loading
10:58-!-GVV is now known as VVG
10:58<Mazur>It happens, when you've not seen an industry until late, and build a station, and haev jsut sent the first train to it.
10:58<planetmaker>GVV: cargo needs to get delivered. Not only picked up.
10:58<Mazur>Once it's really running, it should stay.
10:59<planetmaker>waiting with a 60-tile train loading might not stop the low-production industry closing
11:00<VVG>what would be a good lenght of train compared to industry production output?
11:01<planetmaker>make a train leave at least two times a game year
11:01<VVG>One particular oil well i'm talking about is production about 40k litres, and is being serviced by 4 trains 5 tiles long, for atleast 20 years now, and now it closes down
11:01<+glx>oil wells always decrease and close
11:01<planetmaker>glx, FIRS.
11:02<+glx>oh I skiped that part ;)
11:02<VVG>i thought they behaved like other mines :(
11:02<planetmaker>VVG, what FIRS version do you run?
11:02<planetmaker>can I get a screenshot of your grf list?
11:03<VVG>it's the same game i sent yesterday
11:05<VVG>i'll try your suggestion of 2 trains per year, now it's just about 1 train per year
11:05<planetmaker>hm.... IIRC you added or changed the grf config there a couple of times
11:06<planetmaker>Also and including FIRS. Not sure whether the oil wells might then have aquired the original oil well behaviour
11:06<planetmaker>then closing down is very normal
11:06<planetmaker>anything is possible :-)
11:06<VVG>gah :/
11:08<VVG>How bad is updating one nightly FIRS during running game with newer version?
11:08<planetmaker>I strongly advise against
11:08<planetmaker>it might completely ruin your game
11:10<VVG>and it might not be obvious the game is ruined right after update, right?
11:11<planetmaker>maybe. Dunno
11:13<planetmaker>generally it's strongly discouraged to change ANY newgrf config after the map has been created
11:14<planetmaker>changing industry newgrf is in most cases going to cause trouble one way or another
11:14<+glx>unless it's a vehicle grf and there's no built vehicle ;)
11:14<planetmaker>it's the newgrf type most closely linked to the map
11:15<planetmaker>glx, even then it might modify base costs :-)
11:19<VVG>such a pity they don't behave when changing onthefly :(
11:23<planetmaker>VVG, they are not inteded to be changed nor is it principally possible
11:24<planetmaker>NewGRFs are building blocks of a map. Not a thing added as sugar on top
11:24<planetmaker>they are WAY more than just the graphics you see.
11:24<+glx>and original they were not modifiable ingame :)
11:24<+glx>only in config file
11:25<planetmaker>They're thousands of lines of programme code which change the whole behaviour of the game
11:27<SpComb>reimplement in haskell
11:28<planetmaker>VVG, thus, for example, if you rip-out an industry set, you'll have the map littered with industries which the progamme doesn't know anymore how to handle them.
11:28<planetmaker>All production, cargos, behaviour etc. is then undefined
11:28<planetmaker>if you replace it by another version - you may be lucky that it's sufficiently compatible. But... it's another version. There are differences
11:28<planetmaker>That's _why_ it is another version
11:29<planetmaker>same goes with removing vehicle sets. Then the game will have vehicles which it has no way to define anymore.
11:29<planetmaker>Quite certainly OpenTTD might then crash
11:30<planetmaker>and _that_ is what the red warning box tries to tell you each time you change newgrf on a running game.
11:30<+glx>some engines may become wagons
11:30<planetmaker>or a rail engine a maglev one
11:30<+glx>single head can become dual head
11:31<planetmaker>actually: the only reason - as far as I see - why it's not made impossible to change newgrfs on a running game is that there a few things one can change without getting into trouble.
11:32<planetmaker>Most notable is ADDING vehicle set(s) to an existing map.
11:32<planetmaker>That doesn't include updating newgrfs or existing vehicle sets
11:32<+glx>adding, not inserting ;)
11:32<planetmaker>actually only ADDING should be allowed on a running game
11:33<planetmaker>hm... :-) Might be an idea :-)
11:33<Mazur>And removing them again if you decide that's nog the one you wanted to use and they conflict with the one you did want to use.
11:33<VVG>those few things you mentioned are?
11:33<planetmaker>Mazur, wrong
11:33<planetmaker>VVG, I just mentioned them
11:33<Yexo>Mazur: for that case make a savegame first, then load back that savegame when you added a newgrf you didn't actually want
11:33<planetmaker>Also adding a station set is save
11:34<+glx>adding and removing station set is safe
11:34<planetmaker>glx, sure? Removing used ones?
11:34<+glx>as there are fallbacks
11:34<Mazur>Oh, no, I was commenting about why one would want to be able to remove in a runnning game.
11:34<Yexo>inserting (not only adding) vehicle sets should also work due the vehiclemanager
11:35<+glx>just non drivable tiles may become drivable
11:35<planetmaker>glx, and exactly that crashes openttd
11:35<+glx>but that's harmless internally
11:35<planetmaker>oh. vice versa :-)
11:36<planetmaker>Yexo, insert as opposed to add means what? Position in NewGRF list?
11:36<planetmaker>ok :-)
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11:37<planetmaker>Yexo, I'm somewhat in need of a minimalistic example for railtypes graphics
11:37<planetmaker>I somehow didn't manage to get that working yesterday...
11:38<planetmaker>but I don't have my code here right now for reference
11:38<Yexo>I'll try and write something
11:38<Yexo>nutracks is the best example code?
11:38<planetmaker>that'd be nice... I only managed to trigger some errors. NuTracks is an example, yes
11:38<planetmaker>should be the best available one presumably, too
11:39<planetmaker>I don't need the graphics, just how to tell NML how to swallow them. So an example with white boxes is fine for me :-)
11:40<VVG>guess i better i start a new game with no onthefly modifications
11:42<planetmaker>but I somehow only managed yesterday night to produce NML errors. And I'm not sure where I go wrong... most probable with the cargo types definitions
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11:46<planetmaker>but no rush, I'll not be around tonight :-)
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11:51<VVG>in FIRS, does it matter how many engeneering supplies i delivered to a mine to gain that 1 in 4 chance of production increase?
11:51<andythenorth>at least 1 unit per month
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12:14<Yexo>3rd.png is copied from nutracks, offsets are also taken from there
12:14<Yexo>this would give normal rail a spee dlimit of 40km/h and the 3rd-rail graphics
12:15<Yexo>for the number used in the graphics block see, we need constants for that
12:15<Yexo>and it doesn't behave nice becaues not all graphics are defined, but it gives an idea of how to do it
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12:18<planetmaker>ah. There was my missing piece
12:18<planetmaker>the numbers defined in the lowest block for the graphics :-)
12:18<planetmaker>thanks a lot, yexo!
12:19<Yexo>adding number there wasn't possible until r300 :p
12:19<Yexo>before that you could only use cargolabels which makes no sense for railtypes
12:21<planetmaker>I guess I can define the constants then :-)
12:21<planetmaker>or do you do that already?
12:22<Yexo>relevant code is
12:22<Yexo>so don't add the constants to the global constants table, just define a new table in
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12:26<planetmaker>why not global?
12:33<planetmaker>hm... I guess the price we pay for the nice NML source code is a bit speed :-)
12:38<Yexo>that's only when writing grf files, I haven't figured out yet where exactly in that code though
12:39<planetmaker>well. Writing grf files is what we finally want ;-)
12:39<planetmaker>I don't mind as of now :-)
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13:03<frosch123>planetmaker: lazatus/freepascal is very different to delphi when it comes to gui stuff
13:04<planetmaker>:-) I never really looked at it
13:04<frosch123>even grf2html needed porting :p
13:04<planetmaker>oh :-)
13:05<@Belugas>ho... the Prince of Fucking Darkness has a new album coming in
13:06<frosch123>but well, delphi is dead, long live freepascal :)
13:06<planetmaker>hehe :-)
13:08<@Belugas>Delphi ? Dead? haa.... come on
13:08<@peter1138>new ozzy?
13:08<frosch123>what version are you using, belugas?
13:08<@peter1138>one week away, hee
13:09<Yexo>planetmaker: try "-u" if you want speed (no sprite compression)
13:09<@Belugas>peter1138, yes
13:09<@Belugas>frosch123: currently, D4, D5, D2006
13:09<@Belugas>and D6
13:10<planetmaker>interesting, Yexo :-)
13:10<frosch123>oh, D2006 surpised me
13:10<Yexo>nml/ is the problem with the speed
13:10<@peter1138>sold out :(
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13:12<@Belugas>i yurked at D2006. I love the form editor separated from the source code
13:12<@Belugas>and it takes like forever to load
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13:13<frosch123>hehe, that's what i mean. the only usuable versions of delphi are ten years and olde
13:19<@Belugas>skype is done in Delphi
13:20<@Belugas>as well as Fruity loops, DEvC++, AdAware, Beyond Compare and way more
13:20<@Belugas>the king is dead, long live the king
13:20<@Belugas>but yeah for Embarcadero, it's still alive!
13:20<@Belugas>hope for the best :S
13:21<SpComb>Yexo: is that the .grf compression?
13:22<planetmaker>obviously :-)
13:22<Yexo>behavior is the same as the grfcodec -u flag
13:23<SpComb>apply Cython
13:24<planetmaker>Yexo, you helped swedish rails quite a lot today :-) Thanks!
13:25<Yexo>does it all work? :p
13:25<planetmaker>I *think*. I haven't done comprehensive testing and I need to properly align everything
13:26<SpComb>hmm, each sprite is compressed separately?
13:26<Yexo>and only real sprites
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13:36<planetmaker>have a good evening :-) bye bye
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r19989 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt russian.txt unfinished/irish.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: czech - 3 changes by Hadez
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: irish - 79 changes by tem
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: russian - 2 changes by LazyBoy
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14:59<Eddi|zuHause><glx> adding and removing station set is safe <-- afair there was a flaw in there, when you remove a station grf, and then add a different one
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>then existing stations with trains in them can become non-track
15:00<@peter1138>only if the grfs have the same grfid
15:00<frosch123>like isr :)
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>yes, the trouble was replacing one isr version with another one
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>0.7 to 0.8 or so...
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15:18<Ammler>almost every isr wasn't compatible
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15:27<Zuu>Ammler: Have you yet decided to come?
15:27<Zuu>or is that still on the todo-list? ;-)
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15:41<__ln__>Blue1 has cancelled their strike
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15:52*andythenorth ponders more schemes to distribute industry on the map
15:52<andythenorth>oil wells should either cluster with lower production or...
15:53<andythenorth> larger oil well with high production
15:53<andythenorth>(oil field)
15:53<andythenorth>Mines are probably fine
15:54<andythenorth>Should forests cluster?
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16:01<Eddi|zuHause>i think all primary industries can cluster, except maybe scrapyards
16:01<Ammler>Zuu: I have acutally no serious excuse to not come, except the long trip :-)
16:01<Zuu> Longer than mine?
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>i believe almost the same, if you don't count the water
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>i think your main problem is that braunschweig is not reasonably reachable from the north ;)
16:04<Zuu>Only 1.5 hours from berlin which is just an overnight train away. :-)
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but berlin is not north of braunschweig ;)
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16:04<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: what's your reasoning for clustering all primary?
16:05<Zuu>The other option is to take a night train to hannover, which is closer to braunschweig, but the night train arrives to early in the mornining in Hannover. :-p
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: gameplay wise, i like to cover several industries with a feeder system
16:06<andythenorth>me too in most cases...not all
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>"realism" wise, the environmental circumstances in a region often allow multiple industries of a similar kind spread out a little
16:07<andythenorth>I instigated clustering farms so that each farm could have low production....I don't like a big queue of trucks at a farm
16:07<andythenorth>mines I can cluster, but at a smaller cluster size than farms
16:07<andythenorth>as mines already have high production
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, something like 2-4 at a location
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>forests are often in places that are difficult for agricultural development, e.g. hilly landscape
16:09<andythenorth>forests....depends how I implement them.
16:09<andythenorth>I would like to do the trees with 'field tiles'
16:09<andythenorth>that's work in progress
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>that could be interesting, yes ;)
16:10<andythenorth>the forest will then be either *one* logging camp surrounded by multiple 'landings' with yarders and trucks....or....
16:11<andythenorth>each industry will be one landing (no logging camps needed)
16:11<andythenorth>I am thinking the second route at the moment
16:11<andythenorth>as IRL transport starts right at the landing
16:12<andythenorth>in that case forests could have quite low production, and cluster
16:15<frosch123>maybe cluster the mines, but with distance > 80 tiles
16:15<frosch123>so the 64x64 station fools cannot service them with one station :p
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, something like that
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>so they are in the same region
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>and not scattered equidistant on the map
16:17<andythenorth>my clustering code can enforce min / max distances easily
16:24<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: feeders with oil wells? Seems really boring
16:24<andythenorth>I'm thinking one oil field, spread over many tiles, high production, no clusters
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>maybe, but don't fall in the PBI trap to enforce the oil field on a flat land
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16:26<andythenorth>I need to figure out how to allow building on slopes anyway
16:26<andythenorth>if no sprites require more than one tile, it should be ok
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17:26<Terkhen>good night
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17:29<__ln__>'night wolf01
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18:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r19990 /trunk/src/waypoint_gui.cpp: -Fix: owner of the Waypoint View window wasn't properly set
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23:00<tartanterrorist>does anyone know how i can delete these transmitters?
23:00<tartanterrorist>just been screwed by 2 different ones in the space of 10 min
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23:20<devilsadvocate>tartanterrorist, magic bulldozer cheat
23:21<tartanterrorist>ah thanks
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23:53<tartanterrorist>ive got my list of vehicles, how do i make a group with all the unprofitable ones without dragging them one by one>
---Logclosed Wed Jun 16 00:00:29 2010