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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-06-17

---Logopened Thu Jun 17 00:00:30 2010
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03:02<andythenorth>Yexo: Express, piece goods, refrigerated.....should be 00A4 ?
03:34<andythenorth>nvm, fixed
03:54<planetmaker>peter1138: I think that the tunnel sprites for rail types need two additional sprites
03:54<planetmaker>only an overlay doesn't do it as there'll be always wall which will be behind the train for two of the directions
03:55<planetmaker>thus those directions need two overlays, one before and one behind the train sprite(s)
03:55<planetmaker>like current base set tunnels do as well.
03:55<planetmaker>and as no one yet uses it to my knowledge, it's not a big compatibility issue either
03:56<Terkhen>good morning
03:57<planetmaker>moin Terkhen
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04:02<@peter1138>planetmaker, the wall is already provided, no?
04:02<planetmaker>by what?
04:02<@peter1138>by the base graphics
04:03<@peter1138>wall & tunnel graphics are set by the base graphics set
04:03<@peter1138>the rail type just overlays the track
04:04<planetmaker>so how would I provide different tunnel entrance sprites? By actionA only?
04:04<@peter1138>you can't
04:05<@peter1138>because they're landscape specific
04:05<planetmaker>yes, I know they are. Somewhat. I could provide landscape-unspecific sprites
04:06<planetmaker>but help my understanding a bit more: shows all base sprites
04:06<planetmaker>(mind it's a big site)
04:07<planetmaker>sprites 2365+ define the tunnel sprites
04:07<planetmaker>so the 4 railtype tunnel sprites define exactly what?
04:07<@peter1138>the track
04:08<planetmaker>I mean... the track is defined with overlay and underlay... what kind of track is different in a tunnel?
04:08<@peter1138>it's different
04:08<@peter1138>because it might be shaded
04:08<planetmaker>good point
04:08<@peter1138>due to being in shadow
04:09<planetmaker>so that track piece os drawn over the back of the tunnel(s)
04:09<planetmaker>then the train, then the front of the tunnels
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04:12<@peter1138>something like that
04:12<@peter1138>it may not work
04:14<planetmaker>ok, but we'll see. Now I know how those four sprites are meant to be used
04:14<planetmaker>thanks for clearing that up for me
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04:17<planetmaker>I assumed wrongly their use as tunnel sprites as opposed to tunnel track sprites :-)
04:18<planetmaker>I elaborated a bit (more) in the newgrf wiki
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04:28<planetmaker>is the mulitplayer mode yes/no available for newgrfs?
04:33<planetmaker>well. There's no base-set independent way to define tunnel sprites
04:34<planetmaker>thus I want to ignore a parameter related to that, if it's a MP game
04:34<planetmaker>But for SP I'd like to provide a switch for TTD or OpenGFX-base set compatible tunnel sprites
04:35<@peter1138>that's the whole point of only specifying the track
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04:35<planetmaker>yes. The track
04:35<planetmaker>But I cannot provide tunnel sprites without considering the base set in use
04:36<planetmaker>I got that now. But it means I cannot define tunnel sprites without knowing the base set in use.
04:36<@peter1138>indeed, no
04:36<planetmaker>a pity :-)
04:37<@peter1138>backing up 1GB files at 2MB/s is tiresome :(
04:39<__ln__>"Die vielbefahrene Strecke Braunschweig-Hannover bleibt mindestens bis Montag gesperrt."
04:40<planetmaker>sounds pretty bad :S
04:40<planetmaker>it's about 30km from here
04:40<@peter1138>yeah, unreadable gibberish
04:41<@peter1138>"We have been sitting in the room and as it has gerummst. I have quite a few here and rausgeholt through my garden here led to the street"
04:42<@peter1138>yes yes
04:42<@peter1138>"I have a few minutes trying aufzubekommen the door and I first started"
04:42<@peter1138>germans never make sense!
04:42<planetmaker>:-P English fail at foreign languages it seems ;-)
04:43<planetmaker>the translator seems pretty bad. No really uncommon words there
04:43<@peter1138>i learnt french, more useful
04:43<@peter1138>they have nice wine & stuff
04:43<@peter1138>(i'll pretend it still know any of it, hehe)
04:44<SpComb>almost another bridge-trick
04:46<planetmaker>Ce n'est pas très facile, peter1138 :-P
04:46<planetmaker>Encore, changerais la langue d'ici ;-)
04:47<@peter1138>it is not very... something :p
04:48<planetmaker>facile? :-)
04:49-!-peter1138 changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.0.1, 1.0.2-RC1 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Speak French Day | Don't ask to ask, just ask
04:49<__ln__>bonsoir merci voilà
04:49<SpComb>so, how do you detect a derailed train and warn oncomig trains?
04:49<@peter1138>oui oui
04:50<@peter1138>je ne sais pas, spcomb
04:54<fjb>French day today?
04:55<@peter1138>i just declared it
04:55<__ln__>c'est un sensor, ne pas toucher
04:56<planetmaker>peter1138: seems to work quite nicely with the tunnels. But indeed they need their own track sprites, the default track sprites look a bit strange
04:56<@peter1138>i'd imagine they draw through the ground
04:57<@peter1138>i, uh, didn't really test it might
04:57<planetmaker>yes, the tunnel sprites need to supply some kind of underlay, too so that the default track is over-painted
04:58<planetmaker>but they need to provide shadowing, too and their sleepers should not extend over the wall ;-)
04:59<planetmaker>^ that's how it looks with my default sprites (combined underlay + tracks)
04:59<planetmaker>I'll have to push Irwe to provide dedicated sprites there
04:59<@peter1138>that's not *too* bad
04:59<@peter1138>but yeah, needs to go darker
05:00<planetmaker>nope, not too bad. And the snow should go a bit deep in the tunnel
05:00<@peter1138>what's with the bloody mess? heh
05:01<planetmaker>oh, you mean the tracks there?
05:01<planetmaker>It's just my track type testing savegame
05:01<planetmaker>having many things visible at one glance
05:01<@peter1138>nah, the red blob in the middle
05:02<@peter1138>error highlight marker
05:02<planetmaker>yes. I cannot build a rail there with that slope
05:02<planetmaker>mouse cursor with rail building tool enabled
05:03<planetmaker>or rather rail removal tool
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05:51<__ln__>i guess someone at DB is assigned to figuring out how to get from Hannover to Braunschweig on saturday
05:52<planetmaker>probably. If all fails, there'll be replacement busses.
05:53<planetmaker>don't you come from Berlin, though?
05:53<__ln__>nope, I come from Hannover but leave from Berlin
05:53<planetmaker>ah. Just vice versa than Zuu :-P
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05:53<__ln__>yeah :)
05:54<planetmaker> <-- __ln__
05:54<__ln__>got a cheaper return flight from Berlin, and besides haven't been to Berlin yet.
05:55<planetmaker>can you read it?
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05:57<planetmaker>ok, I can also read arabic. The question is whether I'd understand it :-P
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05:59<__ln__>fünf jahre deutsch in der schule, ich erinnere mich noch etwas.
06:00<Eddi|zuHause>that's better than me with 4 years french...
06:07<Eddi|zuHause>of course i wasn't in france for 10 years...
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06:40<Eddi|zuHause>10:59:02 <planetmaker> <-- something is wrong with the foundations near the snow line...
06:41<Eddi|zuHause>with the roads, it doesn't show snow at all, and with the rails, it shows snow on the ground tile, but no snow on the rail overlay
06:42<planetmaker>nothing I can do about...
06:42<planetmaker>but indeed
06:44<Ammler>yeah, looks silly, snow in the tunnel, but not on the tracks after it
06:44<planetmaker>well... that's a matter of how the tile height is defined
06:44<planetmaker> <-- I opened this bug report for related discussion :-)
06:44<planetmaker>but I have no good solution(s)
06:45<Ammler>the missing snow on the road foundations might be a openttd bug...
06:45<Ammler>or is that different with original base set?
06:47<Ammler>seems like foundations use the level from bottom instead the "real" level they are thanks to foundations
06:51<@peter1138>you could fix it :D
06:52<Ammler>oh, you reported the issue
06:53<Ammler>@commit 12098
06:53<@DorpsGek>Ammler: Commit by smatz :: r12098 /trunk/src (rail_cmd.cpp rail_map.h) (2008-02-10 11:35:05 UTC)
06:53<@DorpsGek>Ammler: -Fix: make snow appear on rail tiles dependant on track height, not on height of the lowest part of the tile
06:54<Ammler>so you reverted that commit again?
06:55<planetmaker>hm, indeed, it doesn't seem to work
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06:56<planetmaker>well. The rail type uses the lowest corner, not the height it is built upon - unlike the snow - awareness of the ground tile used
06:57<planetmaker>For roads it uses the lowest corner - unlike for rail sprites
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06:57<Ammler>well, on your screen, it works partially for rails
06:57<Ammler>it has snow on side but not between the tracks
06:58<Ammler>like it has on non-foundation tiles
07:03<planetmaker>yes. But ground tiles and tracks are different sprites
07:03<planetmaker>so they obviously determine their height differently
07:03<@peter1138>should be easy to fix
07:03<@peter1138>apply r12098 to whatever new bits i added
07:03<@peter1138>get to it, ammler
07:03<planetmaker>@openttd r12098
07:04<planetmaker>@openttd commit 12098
07:04<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Commit by smatz :: r12098 /trunk/src (rail_cmd.cpp rail_map.h) (2008-02-10 11:35:05 UTC)
07:04<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: -Fix: make snow appear on rail tiles dependant on track height, not on height of the lowest part of the tile
07:04<planetmaker>damn. No link :-(
07:09<Ammler>peter1138: imo, not just a bug from you, seems also for example buggy on road foundations..., maybe a generic foundation bug
07:10<SmatZ>r12098 could be buggy
07:10<SmatZ>maybe it doesn't work as expected...
07:10<SmatZ>it worked in the cases I tested
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07:10<Ammler>SmatZ: you might have fixed it for rails only
07:11<Ammler>and on that time, there were no rails overlay, iirc :-)
07:11<SmatZ>yeah, it worked only for rails
07:12<SmatZ>the most visible issue was track on the higher part of a steep slope
07:18<planetmaker>most notably there were no rail types, yes
07:18<planetmaker>and that's the issue we see. It might work with just ground tiles
07:18<planetmaker>that's what it looks like :-)
07:22<@peter1138>yeah the "is it snow" code for railtype overlay is in the varaction2 resolver
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09:16<@Belugas>bonne journee peter. Ca vas bien ce matin? ou cet apres-midi, pour toi
09:20<@peter1138>afternoon indeed
09:20<@peter1138>j'ai faim
09:20<__ln__>qu'est-ce que
09:24<@Belugas>Bois du café! Penses pas a la bouffe!
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09:25<__ln__>le hungry
09:26<__ln__>they actualky call quarter-pounder with cheese a royale with cheese in france
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09:26<__ln__>but the argument about metric system doesn't hold with other countries
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09:42<VVG>I have an autoreplace order which i can't undo. It's been done in some past save i don't have anymore, now replace gui shows that vehicles aren't being replcaed, but they are, when visiting depot. I can't find a way to stop it.
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>might be an individual group replacement
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09:45<VVG>that group i actually wanted replaced was replaced long ago and since then i deleted that group
09:47<VVG>found the problem, thx
09:47<VVG>didn't think it's done per group
09:47<VVG>i had ungroped group ordered with autoreplace
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10:14<VVG>Is it possible to turn off "train profit was xxx" messages but still have "train is lost" messages on?
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10:36<Eddi|zuHause>yes, in advanced settings->vehicles->warn when vehicle has negative profit
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r19993 /trunk/src/lang/ (brazilian_portuguese.txt croatian.txt hebrew.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: croatian - 6 changes by VoyagerOne
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: hebrew - 47 changes by dnd_man
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 11 changes by Tucalipe
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14:12*Alberth speaks no french
14:17*Hirundo ne parle pas Francais aussi
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14:33<planetmaker> <-- for those interested in writing newgrfs :-)
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14:41*andythenorth ponders converting FISH to nml
14:41<andythenorth>there isn't much code in FISH, mostly just action 0
14:42<planetmaker>then it's pretty easy to convert, andythenorth
14:43<andythenorth>well maybe a project for later in the year then :)
14:43<planetmaker>I guess it mightbe pretty straight forward and could be done in a day
14:44<PeterT>planetmaker: nice job ;)
14:44<planetmaker>PeterT: mostly not my job
14:44<@peter1138>so can i still use the feature of newgrf of setting the same property for multiple objects at the same time?
14:44<planetmaker>I'm just the messenger
14:44<PeterT>planetmaker: yes, nice post
14:44<planetmaker>peter1138: I haven't tried... dunno
14:45<planetmaker>^ Yexo ? :-)
14:45<@peter1138>doesn't look like the syntax supports it at all
14:45<Hirundo>While loop should work, I think
14:45<@peter1138>but it might be a 'compiler optimization' i guess
14:45<Yexo>peter1138: that's not possible currently
14:46<Yexo>it's indeed a possible "compiler optimization" later on, though not really a high priority
14:46<@peter1138>it's required! i need to save 3 bytes from my newgrf!
14:46<Yexo>in that case I'll gladly refer you back to nfo :p
14:46<@peter1138>generic buffers uses it
14:48<planetmaker>I hardly ever needed to define the same thing for a whole range of items only and nothing else which didn't differ
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15:22<andythenorth>FIRS 914
15:22<andythenorth>maybe I can make 1k by Saturday :P
15:24<Alberth>@calc (1000-914) / 3
15:24<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 28.6666666667
15:34<andythenorth>FIRS 920
15:42*andythenorth is clustering mines
15:42<andythenorth>not sure if Sand / Gravel Pits should cluster
15:42<andythenorth>they are large, and tend to cluster on the map anyway due to needing flat land
15:43<Terkhen>I agree on that, they cluster already
15:44<planetmaker>they don't need to cluster (more)
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>have i mentioned that i don't like the gravel pits?
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>my understanding of a gravel pit is more what pikka is doing
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16:04<fjb>Cluster them around rivers. :-)
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16:16<Eddi|zuHause>the speak french day doesn't cause them much luck...
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16:31<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: the problem is that I don't want to draw proper quarrries
16:31<andythenorth>the bauxite and iron ore mine have the same issue :P
16:34<andythenorth>is it likely there will be a TTDP implementation of nml?
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16:35<planetmaker>andythenorth: NML supports newgrf specs
16:35<planetmaker>you can code newgrfs with it just as with NFO
16:35<andythenorth>so separate project
16:35<andythenorth>makes sense
16:35<planetmaker>why would you?
16:35<andythenorth>I was thinking wrong
16:35<planetmaker>same as before. Just use if (ttd_platform == TTDPATCH) { blubber } else { blah }
16:36<planetmaker>like in my opening posting :-)
16:36<planetmaker>the code should show that both are supported ;-)
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16:58*andythenorth is baffled by advanced varaction 2
17:00*andythenorth unbaffles self
17:01*andythenorth solves clustering for mines
17:01<andythenorth>but it looks about the same as the default placement routine :P
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you should increase the spread (in numbers to generate) between primary and secondary industries
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>if the average cluster size is 3, and you might want 2 clusters per secondary industry, you should maybe create 6 ore mines for each steel mill
17:05<andythenorth>it's plausible
17:05<andythenorth>but the numbers of industries generated aren't under my control to that extent
17:05<andythenorth>the random generation is unfathomable
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, you can set the ratio
17:06<andythenorth>it's very rough, and frosch explained it to me once, it made sense, but has the potential to produce unexpected results
17:07<andythenorth>the scaling by map size is also currently bizarre
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but it shouldn't change the ratios
17:09<andythenorth>I wouldn't rule out some tweaks to get good ratios of secondary : primary
17:09<andythenorth>there's also distance to consider
17:10<planetmaker>I wouln't bother about distances
17:10<andythenorth>I meant that a surfeit of secondary can be useful to prevent insane distances from primary to seconday
17:10<andythenorth>secondary /s
17:10<andythenorth>fewer secondary on the map = higher chance of insane distance
17:12<planetmaker>there's no insane distance on any map size
17:13<planetmaker>it might happen to be large for a single primary -> secondary type. But not for all
17:13<planetmaker>And when I have money, I prefer the long routes
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i agree with planetmaker
17:13<planetmaker>Chines manufacturers may be far away, but they're cheap :-P
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>it makes for more variation on which cargo to start with
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>besides i usually start with passengers anyway ;)
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>there's always a large city which can sustain a tram network
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>makes for low but steady income without large investment
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i have a feeling ntfs-3g corrupts my files...
17:17<andythenorth>FIRS 929 :)
17:18<andythenorth>and everything is a valid commit, no stupidly atomic changes :)
17:19*andythenorth blew up the game
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>as long as you have not lost the game ;)
17:21<andythenorth>I just lost the game
17:22<andythenorth>I believe you just cheated :P
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17:33*andythenorth wonders whether to make clustering optional
17:34<planetmaker>no need IMHO. As long as not everything clusters :-)
17:36<andythenorth>makes minimap look kind of funky :P
17:36<andythenorth>I'm going to use the same code to anti-cluster secondary industries
17:37<andythenorth>players will still be able to cluster them if desired of course
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17:49<Terkhen>good night
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18:53<andythenorth>FIRS 936
18:53<andythenorth>and good night
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21:16<zachanim1>r20000, anything planned?
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21:41<fjb>Meeting in Braunschweig. See the forum.
21:45<zachanim1>I shall
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---Logclosed Fri Jun 18 00:00:31 2010