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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-06-20

---Logopened Sun Jun 20 00:00:34 2010
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02:44<@peter1138>last service: 29th Jun 2404
02:44<@peter1138>current date... 24th Jun
02:44<@peter1138>i shouldn't've left it running over night
02:44<@peter1138>on fastforward
02:44<@peter1138>oops :)
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02:59<andythenorth>but what does it mean? :P "Do the standard random production change as if this industry was a primary one."
03:03<andythenorth>the source has the answer :)
03:12<Terkhen>good morning
03:33<andythenorth>primary industry closing is just annoying
03:33<andythenorth>that's getting removed from :|
03:45<OwenS>lol, you'd already filed the ticket
04:05<@peter1138>meh, normal breakdown level is too much :s
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05:14<andythenorth>hi hi
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05:28<@peter1138>stupid servicing bollocks
05:28<@peter1138>last serviced 1.5 years ago
05:28<@peter1138>reliability 17%
05:28<@peter1138>servicing interval 80%
05:29<@peter1138>why... have you just gone straight past a depot?
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05:34<Wolf01>I think the problem is in the "go non-stop to xxxxxx"
05:34<Wolf01>I have the same problem
05:34<@peter1138>these aren't using non-stop orders
05:34<Wolf01>so I always put "go to nearest depot"
05:36<Wolf01>but does the non-stop order affect the maintenance of vehicles?
05:37<Wolf01>if it's so I'll won't use it, if not, it's a bad behavior of vehicles
05:37<@peter1138>no idea
05:38<andythenorth>peter1138: you're using PBS yes?
05:38<Wolf01>andythenorth, pbs or not, it is the same for trains and road vehicles
05:38<andythenorth>place a signal immediately in front of the depot
05:39<andythenorth>otherwise trains won't find a route
05:39<andythenorth>there is also a problem with RVs not going to depot, it's been in trunk for ages, but I can't reliably reproduce it
05:39<Wolf01>I have it on all my saves :D
05:42<andythenorth>have you reported it to flyspray?
05:43<Wolf01>No, I always thought it was a difect of my play style
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05:44<Wolf01>I tried to change the service period from days to percentual to see if the long route was the problem, but vehicles seem to ignore depots (placed near stations and 2 or 3 of them along the route) and their reliability drops to 10% really fast, with a mean of breakdowns like 10-20 per travel, so I now put "go to nearest depot" after each load and unload and they run nicely with 1 breakdown per travel
05:45<Wolf01>I thought it was so to force players to take care of their vehicles
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06:17*TrueBrain hugs planetmaker
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06:18<TrueBrain>once again, tnx for the awesome party :) You really made something nice out of it :)
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07:40<planetmaker>hey ho :-)
07:41<planetmaker>nice that you enjoyed it. I did for sure. It was awesome in my eyes- if it was for you, too, I'm quite happy :-)
07:41<PeterT>planetmaker: how was the party?
07:41<SpComb>did SmatZ make it?
07:41<PeterT>did everyone already leave?
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07:42<planetmaker>Ammler's still here
07:42<planetmaker>and yes, SmatZ, V453000 and Eddi did make it
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08:00<Yexo><TrueBrain> once again, tnx for the awesome party :) You really made something nice out of it :) <- I second that :)
08:00<Yexo>thanks planetmaker :)
08:02<planetmaker>:-) thanks all of you
08:02<Ammler>Was nice to links some "Heads" to the Nicks :-)
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08:08*__ln__ * IRC on ICE
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08:09<planetmaker>so train connection works, __ln__ ? :-)
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08:11<__ln__>yeah, not even late at all
08:11<__ln__>this seems to be a train coming from Interlaken Ost
08:11<planetmaker>I wonder :-)
08:12<__ln__>Interlaken is a nice town, btw
08:13<welshdragon>Interlaken is in Switzerland, no?
08:13<welshdragon>that name is familiar
08:13<__ln__>it is
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08:13<welshdragon>i might have been there
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08:18<welshdragon>ah, no. I went to Bern
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08:21<iAN_>ist jemand wach?
08:21<Yexo>hello iAN_
08:21<Yexo>yes, but this is an english-only channel
08:21<iAN_>hi Yexo.
08:21<iAN_>Yexo: can you compile the openttd sources?
08:22<Yexo>yes, I can
08:22<__ln__>an english-only channel with occasional speak-french-days
08:22<Yexo>you'd be a lot better of asking your real question
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08:22<__ln__>iAN_: i'm quite certain most of the developers indeed can compile the sources.
08:22<iAN_>I'd like to have the current (1.0.2) including the infrastructure sharing pathc
08:23<iAN_>but can't get it to work :(
08:23<Yexo>why do you care? then it's not 1.0.2 anymore, so any recent binary including inrastructure sharing should be ok
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08:25<iAN_>the only available ISsharing I know off, is from december 09
08:25<Yexo>openttd 1.0.2 + infrastructure sharing is no longer version 1.0.2, so you might as well apply infrastructure sharing to trunk and compile that
08:26<Yexo> <- there you can find source code from 21 february this year
08:26<iAN_>yes. That's what I'd like to have - trunk of 1.0.2 including the ISS (if that works)
08:26<Yexo>I don't think there is anything newer
08:26<Yexo>so you'll either have to update it yourself (I'm not going to help with that) or just take that version
08:27<iAN_>which software (compiler) do you use? and which should I on win32?
08:28<__ln__>it's way easier to compile on some other platform, btw.
08:28<Yexo>presonally I use msvc to compile and cygwin for all commandline tools
08:28<iAN_>pew! I just have my win-gaming platform
08:29<welshdragon>there are other docs on the wiki that are helpful
08:30<welshdragon> for example
08:31<iAN_>ok - tryiing...
08:36<iAN_>required HD space for Visual C++ 2010 Express = 2.1 GB on C: and 300MB on E: ?!
08:36<Yexo>yes, it's a very big install
08:37<iAN_>erm .. isn't that a bit too much vor a c++ compiler?
08:37<Yexo>yes (but it isn't only a c++ compiler)
08:37<iAN_>but I just need a compiler
08:38<Yexo>you could try just cygiwn/mingw, not sure if those can still compile openttd or what version you'd need
08:38<Yexo>I think it works
08:41<iAN_>I'm going for open-watcom-c-win32 (80MB)
08:43<iAN_>ok - installation finished
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08:46<iAN_>tortoise is ok?
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08:49<iAN_>have to restart - hope I'm back in few minutes
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08:52<Rubidium>does Watcom actually compile OpenTTD? It's listed as known failing to compile OpenTTD in that never read document
08:54<Yexo>iAN_ has had enough advise, if he wants to try let him try (we'll hear if it works soon)
08:58<Alberth>planetmaker: thanks for your efforts yesterdaym it was FUN!
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08:58<iAN_>re :-)
08:59<Alberth>andythenorth: congrats on reaching the 1K limit in so little time
08:59<Alberth>andythenorth: and of course on the 0.2 release!
09:00<iAN_>erm - i should have limited svn to checkout only the trunk :-(
09:00<iAN_>hrmm. I spares a gigabyte on installing a small compiler ..,,
09:01<Alberth>ok :)
09:01<iAN_>Error: Compression of svndiff data failed
09:02*Alberth is not surprised
09:03<Alberth>downloading a copy of every branch and every release is BIG!
09:03<iAN_>yeah. I killed the branch folder
09:03<iAN_>have tags trunk and extras
09:03<iAN_>and I'll kill the tags folder now
09:04<Rubidium>tags is even huger than branches
09:04<iAN_>so - finde
09:04<Rubidium>and extras is very very likely totally unuseful for you
09:04<iAN_>I fear I need some external librarys now
09:05<iAN_>couls someone please copy the link (above) to the compile-wiki page
09:05<iAN_>I lost it on my last reboot :-(
09:05<Yexo><welshdragon> for example <- that one?
09:05<Yexo>^^ or there :)
09:07<iAN_>what is minGW?
09:07<Yexo>"MinGW, a contraction of "Minimalist GNU for Windows", is a port of the GNU Compiler Collection (GCC), and GNU Binutils, for use in the development of native Microsoft Windows applications." <- from
09:07<Rubidium>the readme lists what libraries you need
09:08<Rubidium>it also lists what compilers are known to fail to compile openttd
09:09<TinoDidriksen>iAN_, if you want the best free compiler for Windows, stick with VC++ Express. MinGW and Cygwin should only be used for compatability testing...
09:11<TinoDidriksen>Especially if you're planning on debugging. VC++'s debugger is superb.
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09:14<iAN_>I just wanna compile
09:14<iAN_>and openwatcom just failed
09:15<TinoDidriksen>VC++ still produces the best free output, then...
09:17<iAN_>installing mingw...
09:18<iAN_>(54kb/s) :(
09:20<PeterT>woo, server updates done \o/
09:26<iAN_>Unzip the folders bin, iconv, licenses, share from the SVN zip file and place into the new folder created in step 1
09:26<iAN_>that means I copy these folders from my tortoise source stuff?
09:31<iAN_>I have kind of a linux shell in a window now
09:31<iAN_>which has gcc and make
09:31<iAN_>but lacks svn
09:32<iAN_>which is menat in the wiki-page? I don't find onw
09:33<TinoDidriksen>Not, but a zip file from the SVN repo.
09:33<TinoDidriksen>You can use Tortoise to handle all the SVN stuff, then compile in the Bash shell.
09:33<iAN_>okay - moving the TRUNK folder from tortoise to where?
09:34<TinoDidriksen>Could also just "cd" from the shell to wherever the folder is.
09:37<SmatZ>planetmaker, thanks for the party, it was great :)
09:37<planetmaker>oh, you're home again :-)
09:37<planetmaker>I'm happy that you enjoyed it :-)
09:37<planetmaker>I did a lot.
09:37<SmatZ>I hope all did :-)
09:38<planetmaker>Thanks, Alberth, too :-)
09:38<planetmaker>I just brought Ammler to the station :-)
09:38<planetmaker>did Eddi still make it?
09:38<iAN_>hrm.. :(
09:39<iAN_>./configure was dine - make does not work
09:39<SmatZ>"does not work" is very vague
09:39<planetmaker>make does not work <-- that's a quite useless error description
09:39<Yexo>copy all output from make to and give a link to that here
09:39<iAN_>make: *** No targets specified and no makefile found. Stop.
09:39<Yexo>you executed make in the wrong directory
09:39<planetmaker>then configure wasn't run
09:40<Yexo>hmm, actually what planetmaker says :p
09:40<planetmaker>or that ^ :-)
09:40<iAN_>configure: error: no zlib detected
09:40<iAN_>If you want to compile without zlib use --without-zlib as parameter
09:40<Yexo>so ./configure didn't run "fine"
09:40<planetmaker>well. follow the advice you just pasted
09:40<planetmaker>but you want zlib.
09:41<iAN_>./configure --without-zlib
09:41<Yexo>no zlib means no libpng right?
09:41<planetmaker>and not download
09:41<iAN_>where to get zlib?
09:41<planetmaker>at the end of a google search
09:41<Yexo>there should be some installer for it for mingw
09:41<planetmaker>it's all linked in the openttd devlopment site.
09:42<planetmaker>you have been linked there before afaik
09:42<planetmaker> <-- here again
09:42<planetmaker>might be worth reading
09:42*planetmaker goes disassembling tents better :-)
09:43<iAN_>ja ja ja =)
09:48<iAN_>compiling wget (needed to get zlib sources to be compiled later)
09:54<iAN_>anti virus kills a needed file (reason virus inside)
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10:06<fonsinchen>someone should implement a better line clipping algorithm ... the one in GfxDrawLine is pretty stupid (and it's duplicated in GfxDrawLineUnscaled)
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10:16*iAN_ sighs
10:18<iAN_>the wiki page is out of date. the files are 404 on the server :(
10:19<Rubidium>iAN_: might be... the problem is that those specific versions are known to work and the newer versions are known to be broken
10:20<Rubidium>which kinda implies that new mingw installations might not be able to compile OpenTTD anymore because of the brokeness
10:20<iAN_>but the old version does not longer work - some server-side files are missing and return 404 :(
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10:24<Rubidium>in any case I can't help with solutions as I don't run Windows
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10:25<Rubidium>so someone with mingw installation experience should retry mingw from scratch again and fix the wiki
10:29<iAN_>I try to find a newer version of that zöib
10:30<+glx>just get it from the official page
10:33<+glx>and newer than 1.2.3 don't compile with mingw IIRC (at least 1.2.5 failed for me)
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10:34<iAN_>I got 1.2.5
10:34<iAN_>trying make
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10:37<iAN_>$ ./configure
10:37<iAN_>Checking for gcc...
10:37<iAN_>Please use win32/Makefile.gcc instead.
10:37<iAN_>what does that mean?
10:37<+glx>make -f win32/Makefile.gcc
10:37<iAN_>aah! :-)
10:38<+glx>it compiles but install is broken
10:38<iAN_>configure finished -
10:38<iAN_>how do I compile it now?
10:39<+glx>you just compiled it ;)
10:39<iAN_>i just configured
10:39<+glx>you typed make -f ... ?
10:39<iAN_>is that the same?
10:40<iAN_>erm - i typed make - fine
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10:41<Phazorx>looking for concise answer here: is there visible performance difference between different blitters and if there is what would be their ranking and limitations?
10:41<+glx>visible depends on CPU :)
10:42<iAN_>glx: something is still wrong - ./configure from openttd shows "zlib not found"
10:42<+glx>you installed it after compilation?
10:42<iAN_>how should I have done that?
10:43<Phazorx>glx so there are differences and in that case is there an answer somewhere to second part?
10:44<Phazorx>perhaps a chart with mentioned "cpu dependencies" ?
10:44<+glx>8bpp-anim is faster than any 32bpp
10:44<Rubidium>Phazorx: probably 32bpp-simple < 32bpp-animated < 32bpp-optimised; 8bpp-simple < 8bpp-optimised; 32bpp-optimised < 8bpp-optimised *although* this *might* not be true with some drivers/libraries
10:44<+glx>ah yes optimised, not anim :)
10:44<Phazorx>rubi i see thank
10:44<+glx>and on mac 8bpp are usually slower
10:45<Phazorx>and what are the sacrifices to gaing said perfromance?
10:45<+glx>(when they don't crash)
10:45<Rubidium>glx: but 8bpp is not always slower on mac
10:45<+glx>depends on hardware yes :)
10:47<Mazur>iAN_, what distribution?
10:47<Mazur>Fedora: yum -y install zlib
10:47<Rubidium>Mazur: no distribution
10:48<iAN_>I have winXPpro - running MingW32
10:48<Rubidium>Mazur: and if you would've read a bit more of the context you would've known it
10:48<Mazur>I saw: ./configure
10:48<Mazur>and assumed a unix box.
10:48<iAN_>./confgure said use win32/Makefile.gcc instead
10:48<Rubidium>Mazur: and like 1 line later "please use win32/Makefile.gcc instead"
10:48<iAN_>and make -f win32/Makefile.gcc did "something"
10:48<Rubidium>that would kinda imply it isn't quite unix
10:49<+glx>iAN_: <-- probably easier to get this and extract it in mingw root dir
10:49<Mazur>yes, only that was not the line I saw. I.e. you're right.
10:49<+glx>iAN_: make -f ... compiled it, but install is broken (make install fails)
10:51<elho>an articulated part in openttd (wrt trains) is a locomotive vehicle without power, like a tender, right?
10:52<Phazorx>iAN_: also, when you get to it - don't forget to run it as ./configure --prefix-dir=/mingw
10:53<elho>and a powered wagon is a non-locomotive vehicle that has power despite it is no locomotive?
10:53<Phazorx>glx/rubi and i noticed almost twice the difference between 32bpp anim and 8bpp opt
10:53<iAN_>I unzipped the file from the url
10:53<iAN_>now I have a lib and include dir
10:53<iAN_>where to put them?
10:54<Phazorx>iAN_: you run proper msys+mingw right?
10:54<iAN_>I think so
10:54<+glx>iAN_: as said, extract in mingw root dir
10:54<+glx>so move lib and include in mingw root
10:54<Phazorx>as glx said
10:55<Phazorx>you use svn as well?
10:56<iAN_>ok - thx for help. zlib works
10:57<iAN_>now - liblzo2 was not detected or disabled
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11:08<planetmaker>you can ignore liblzo2
11:09<iAN_>I compile it right now
11:10<+glx>then you'll need libpng, libfreetype, ...
11:11<iAN_>first waiting to get liblzo2 compiled :-)
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11:12<planetmaker>well. libpng is kinda needed. You can nearly do without the rest
11:12<planetmaker>probably :-)
11:13<+glx>freetype is nice to have too
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11:14<Eddi|zuHause>[20.06.2010 15:38] <planetmaker> did Eddi still make it? <-- yes, i did make it, everything went perfect
11:15<Eddi|zuHause>arrived at 11:15, which fit perfectly into the 30 minute buffer that i planned when i gave the 11:00 figure ;)
11:15<Eddi|zuHause>so took about 1:45 plus refueling
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>the google estimate for the route we took was 2:20
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>i told you it's lying :p
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>i can never tell...
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>although we did go rather 160 than 130
11:17<planetmaker>hehe :-P
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11:20<Yexo>planetmaker: do you have a test grf for FS#3886 ?
11:21<planetmaker>well, I don't have a variable I can query.
11:22<planetmaker>But the current swedish rails query param1 for the date for depot changes
11:22<planetmaker>that can be changed to that new variable
11:22<Yexo> <- introduces var 43 (as days since 0)
11:22<planetmaker>I'll happily test :-)
11:22<Yexo>var[0x43] <- that is valid nml in a switch-block
11:24<planetmaker>Let's see. Give me 10 minutes for compiling everything, OpenTTD + grf
11:24<planetmaker>I need to update openttd anyway :-)
11:24<Yexo>I can test, just found the relevant lines in swedishrails
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11:29<planetmaker>moin fjb
11:30<fjb>planetmaker: Thanks for the nice party yesterday.
11:30<planetmaker>my pleasure :-)
11:33<fjb>What kind of strange person was that in the cellar?
11:34<planetmaker>I have no clue. Never seen before
11:35<Mazur>Hm, sounds like drinkies time to me.
11:35<planetmaker>Kinda mumbling some other person's name she's been search for...
11:35<fjb>Did you find out what she wanted there?
11:35<fjb>Very strange.
11:35<planetmaker>suspecting that the person lived there.
11:36<planetmaker>But then I'd not go through the back door but use the door bell...
11:36<planetmaker>And I haven't heart that name. Not living here
11:36<fjb>Strange person.
11:37<planetmaker>Yexo: I wasn't successful
11:37<planetmaker>hm... wait: days?
11:37<Yexo>I was :p
11:37<Yexo>yes, days
11:37<planetmaker>then 1965 is always too low ;-)
11:37<Yexo> <- try that
11:37<fjb>I see most people got home well.
11:38<fjb>Even the crazy dutch. :-)
11:38<iAN_>okay - new question: checking revision... no detection
11:38<iAN_>WARNING: there is a great chance you desync
11:38<planetmaker>that's nice, Yexo :-)
11:38<iAN_>how do i fix that?
11:38<Yexo>don't play multiplayer, or fix the revision detection
11:38<Yexo>you can do the latter by installing svn/hg in mingw
11:38<iAN_>how do i fix a "revision detecting"?
11:39<PeterT>./configure --revision=rXXXXX
11:39<iAN_>1.0.2 ?
11:39<Yexo>PeterT: that'd not a fix, it's a workaround
11:39<PeterT>Yexo: so? :-D
11:39<Yexo>iAN_: only if you really compiled 1.0.2 (which I doubt)
11:40<fjb>Oh, that PeterT...
11:40<iAN_>i used tortoise svn to obtain /trunk
11:40<iAN_>should be 1.0.2 ?!
11:40<PeterT>indeed, that PeterT
11:40<Yexo>iAN_: trunk is not 1.0.2
11:40<Yexo>trunk is the latest development, currently last trunk is r20001
11:41<PeterT>iAN_: 1.0.2 !...Yexo beat me to it
11:41<PeterT>@openttd commit 20000
11:41<@DorpsGek>PeterT: Commit by rubidium :: r20000 /tags/1.0.2 (9 files in 4 dirs) (2010-06-19 16:44:18 UTC)
11:41<@DorpsGek>PeterT: -Release: 1.0.2
11:43<Yexo>iAN_: see for an explanation of the different versions
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11:45<iAN_>so I'm going to download branch 1.0.2?
11:46<Yexo>there is normally no reason to compile a release version unless you don't want to use the precompiled binaries for some reason
11:46<iAN_>I want to have 1.0.2 including the infra-structure-sharing patch
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11:47<Yexo>1.0.2 + infrastructure sharing is no longer 1.0.2, so you might as well use trunk+infrastructure sharing
11:47-!-heffer [] has joined #openttd
11:47<Yexo>did you ever program anything before?
11:47<iAN_>well .. 1.0.2 seemed to me a public final release
11:47<iAN_>I have no idea what "new bugs" or "half" features are in the trunk
11:48<theholyduck>iAN_, trunks are GENERALLY quite stable
11:48<Yexo>iAN_: at this moment it's the other way around, a few minor bugs are solved in trunk but were not backported to 1.0.2
11:48<iAN_>okay - configure on the trunk went fine
11:49<iAN_>do i have to configure again after applying the patch?
11:49<planetmaker>but could you successfully build unpatched trunk?
11:49<planetmaker>if not: try that first
11:49<iAN_>kay. thx
11:49<theholyduck>Yexo, at MOST moments in most projects
11:49<theholyduck>bugs are found and fixed much earlier in svn/git/trunk
11:49<theholyduck>than in releases
11:50<Yexo>theholyduck: yes, but I've also seen several projects where half-finished features were committed to trunk, leaving it in a broken state
11:50<iAN_>I get some E:/msys/home/iAN/openttd/ svn: command not found messages
11:50<iAN_>but I just typed make
11:51<theholyduck>Yexo, i've never seen that happen in years :P
11:51<theholyduck>most people only commit new features to trunk when they atleast work
11:51<planetmaker>Yexo: it should work with both you patches, to openttd + swedishrails that I get the old depots before 1960 and the new ones after...
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11:51<planetmaker>what's the obvious thing I do wrong, if I don't see that but always modern ones?
11:52<theholyduck>Yexo, what can happen is when they commit a complete feature based on the submissions of idiots :P
11:52<theholyduck>i remember mplayer trunk being broken for weeks due to a security patch that fixed sevral important security holes, while also breaking mplayer completely
11:52<Yexo>planetmaker: dunno, does "info" on the tiles show the biuld date correctly?
11:53<Yexo>planetmaker: and there are 2 blocks in swedishrails that have to be changed
11:53<planetmaker>yes, both electric and normal
11:53<iAN_>ok - make did fail
11:53<planetmaker>yes, I do have a build date for depots... Hm... let's see.
11:53<iAN_>somehow missing zlib ans lzo
11:53<iAN_>E:/msys/home/iAN/openttd/src/crashlog.cpp:167:23: lzo/lzo1x.h: No such file or directory
11:53<iAN_>E:/msys/home/iAN/openttd/src/crashlog.cpp:174:19: zlib.h: No such file or directory
11:54<planetmaker>why do I have modern ones in 1964 when I set the -date(1965,1,1)? hm...
11:54<theholyduck>building on windows is always such effort
11:54-!-VVG [~sdfkhksd@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:54<theholyduck>iAN_, is there no premade builds with infrastructure sharing on?
11:54<theholyduck>compiling in linux is easy enough, any depdendencies you want is at your fingertips.
11:55<iAN_>I didn'T find a version newer than december 09
11:55<Alberth>theholyduck: yeah, ain't it nice, new users always pick the platform most difficult for development :p
11:55<iAN_>I want to PLAY - not to compile it
11:56<theholyduck>heck, on debian and i figure ubuntu, you can always just run apt-get build-dep openttd
11:56<theholyduck>and all the dependencies are installed automatically
11:56<theholyduck>and you can compile at will
11:56<Alberth>and anything missing is installed in less than a minute :)
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11:59<iAN_>giving up
12:00<iAN_>where can I get a windows binary with iss patch?
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>didn't you say you already had one?
12:00<iAN_>from december 09
12:00-!-KouDy [~KouDy@] has joined #openttd
12:00<iAN_>lacking a lot of nice functions
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12:01<iAN_>I want those "new" functions
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>i want 3000 euro from you
12:01<Alberth>iAN_: in the iss thread, if it exists
12:01<planetmaker>iAN_: newer binaries for IS2 are only available at the end of a compile session
12:01<Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: most likely too cheap :)
12:01<iAN_>I tried hard to compile - but faild
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: probably ;)
12:02<elho>Alberth: indeed, that's not enough to touch windows with a ten feet pole :P
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: but isn't that how the current economy works? you make an estimate way too low, and then correct it upwards to factor x5?
12:03<Alberth>elho: just the work to update the patch is already a lot of work
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, the "touching windows" part is trivial ;)
12:03<Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: oh sorry, then the estimate sounds completely reasonable :)
12:04<planetmaker>Yexo: yes, it works :-)
12:04<planetmaker>Don't ask me why I was too stupid ;-)
12:04<planetmaker>there's 4 switch statements :-)
12:04<Yexo>good to hear it works :)
12:05<Alberth>iAN_: getting it to work is difficult. Give up today, and try again in a few days
12:05<Alberth>eventually, you will succeed
12:06<Alberth>and afterwards, it will also be completely clear why it fails now.
12:07<planetmaker>Yexo: NML: "src/railtypes.pnml", line 199: Parameters of date() should be compile-time constants <-- hehe
12:07<planetmaker>it gives immediately other desired ;-)
12:07<Alberth>a line number!
12:07<planetmaker>switch(FEAT_RAILTYPES, SELF, depot_electric_year_switch_snow, max(var[0x43] - date(param[1], 1, 1), 0)) {
12:08<planetmaker>of course there's an easy way around this
12:08<Yexo>planetmaker: non-const parameters in date() is very tricky
12:10<elho>is tractive effort in the engines data arbitrarily choosen or calculated from power and mass?
12:10<Eddi|zuHause>isn't there such a thing as a "calculated" varaction 2?
12:10<planetmaker>elho: it's neither. It's defined by the newgrf
12:11<elho>planetmaker: that is what i meant by arbitrary, as in arbitrarily chosen by the grf author :)
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>elho: most newgrf sets try to take the values of real vehicles
12:11<planetmaker>then: yes :-)
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>elho: maybe this is worth a read
12:12<elho>so then the accelaration formula for non-maglev trains on the wiki makes no sense. the game calculates based on tractive effort, however the formula on the wiki does not mention that at all
12:13<Alberth>nah, the program picks an aribtrary value that matches the value give by the grf author :p
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>elho: which exact formula do you mean? there are two acceleration models in the game
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>the simple (original) one does not use tractive effort at all
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>the complex ("realistic") one does.
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>and wikis tend to have problems because information may be based on urban legends (like "goods make cities grow")
12:14<elho>those. and i'm talking about realistic accel. as does that page claim to do and also seems to do (for the maglev and slope resistance parts at least)
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>or are just outdated
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>elho: the real formula is likely in src/ground_vehicle.cpp if you want to fix the wiki
12:17<elho>right. therefore i'm destililng up my own formula from the source. but i currently (as it is both what i'm interested in and the simpler case) only looking at maglevs, where te does not matter.
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>elho: if (mode == AS_ACCEL && force > max_te) force = max_te; <-- that's probably the part that's missing from the wiki
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12:19<elho>i already partly fixed the formula in the wiki by adding effect of downhill vehicles (it only had uphill)
12:19<VVG>Congratulations with 20k and new release!
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12:20<Eddi|zuHause>elho: likely it's also missing the setting for slope steepness
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>which is fairly new
12:21<elho>Eddi|zuHause: plus the stuff before to calculate max_te :) but as said, i first try to get my head around the maglev case. i just wondered, that if maybe te was a parameter that could be deduced from others, the wiki could still be correct. but it apparently is not.
12:21<elho>Eddi|zuHause: yes it assumes the default, the 60 in there is 20*3% slope steepness
12:21-!-Progman [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:22<elho>(and 20 * train_slope_steepness is what the source uses)
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12:22<Eddi|zuHause>elho: TE is the resulting force derived from power and speed, max_te is the newgrf-derived value for wheel on track resistance
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>elho: yes, the wiki uses *60, which equals 3% slope (the default value)
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12:24<elho>i still wonder what articulated vehicles and poweredwagons exactly are, power and max_te calculations depend on these details...
12:24<Eddi|zuHause>elho: the physics problem here is that TE may never exceed max_te
12:26<elho>my guess is articulated vehicle == unpowered engine part, eg. a tender, poweredwagon == powered non-engine
12:26<Eddi|zuHause>elho: that basically reduces to having multiple engines in the train
12:26<Yexo>elho: an articulated vehicle is a vehicle with multiple parts
12:27<Yexo>a powered wagon is a wagon that has some newgrf properties set so it gives extra hp to the front engine (or something like that)
12:27<elho>yes, i grasp the real world idea of te. but i do not draw any conclusions from real life physics to game mechanics ;)
12:29<Eddi|zuHause>there used to be a bug in here, don't know if that was addressed meanwihle: the fprce <= max_te check must be done for each engine individually, not for the whole train
12:30<elho>from my perspective that won't be a bug, just a fact how the game works ;)
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise you can add a high power low max_te engine and low power high max_te engine into one train, and they add up
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>which is physicalic nonsense
12:33<elho>Yexo: ok for poweredwagons, but articulated vehicles... i thought articulated vehicle and multihead engine were two different things?
12:34<Yexo>they are, the parts of an articulated vehicle can't be split
12:34<elho>ah. so that is also some newgfx special thing then?
12:35<Yexo>there are no articulated vehicles in the default set
12:35<elho>(except for generictramset, i never used any newgfx stuff, just playing with the stock vehicles)
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12:38<planetmaker>hi andythenorth
12:38<andythenorth>how was the r20k party?
12:39<elho>so a 3 vehicle engine would be three articulated vehicles with 1/3 power each, whereas a stock game 2 vehicle engine is 2 multihead vehicles with full power (as the game has a special case to divide multihead power by 2)
12:40<Yexo>so a 3 vehicle engine would be three articulated vehicles with 1/3 power each <- I'd say it's one articulated vehicle with 2 extra parts, but that depends on the context
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12:44<elho>the context i'm interested in would be in game representation in the linked list of Train objects (vehicles)
12:45<Alberth>several trains, I think
12:45<Yexo>in that caes indeed 3 vehicles (=Train objects)
12:45<Alberth>hmm, I am wrong. Thanks for correcting me Yexo
12:46<Yexo>didn't we say the same?
12:46<elho>ok, seems i got it then :)
12:52<Alberth>Doxygen says "'Train' is either a loco or a wagon. " which is different than what I intended to say
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12:55<elho>yeah, it actually is a single vehicle, despite the name. the same kind of misnomer that did not allow me to understand articulated vehicle in all consequence ;)
12:55<fjb>andythenorth: It was a great party. We had a lot of fun and as much to eat.
12:55<andythenorth>nice :)
12:57<elho>Eddi|zuHause: regarding the physical nonsense: well it is a game no train design simulator and there is lots of unrealistic nonsense in the game i care more about ;)
12:59<planetmaker>andythenorth: when there's a next one you should also join the party :-) was very much fun :-)
13:00<elho>did you have a model railway at your party? ;P
13:01<planetmaker>no and yes
13:01<elho>in fact, you ought to hold such parties in that restaurant where the drinks and food is delivered by a model railway to the tables :D
13:02<planetmaker>no: not sure anyone looked at. yes: there's the toy railway made from wood I played 20 years ago with
13:03<elho>probably good noone looked at it, they'd still be telling you how to optimize your tracklayout from back then etc. *g*
13:10<VVG>andythenorth: i have a few mines i montlhy deliver eng supplies to, but don't actually transport any production from. And they still increase their production. Is that a normal behavior?
13:11<andythenorth>VVG: currently yes.
13:11<andythenorth>I don't think I'll bother to change that
13:18*andythenorth concludes two things
13:19<andythenorth>(1) I don't like the primary industry production decreases I've added to FIRS
13:19<andythenorth>(2) industry closure behaviour really does suck. My map is just about empty
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13:22<@peter1138>hurr, i should make a note of when industries close down...
13:22-!-pugi [] has joined #openttd
13:22<@peter1138>date: 2990
13:22<@peter1138>last serviced: 2464
13:22<@peter1138>so... 500 years
13:23<elho>its a fake operated by the mafia :P
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13:25<@peter1138>hmm, autorenew failed
13:26<@peter1138>because the train couldn't get to all stations
13:26<VVG>is there a limit of how many industry of the same type there can be on a map?
13:28<elho>hmm, GetAcceleration() using speed in mph whereas most other places seem to use kph does not make things straight forward either :P
13:31<planetmaker>[19:26] <VVG> is there a limit of how many industry of the same type there can be on a map? <-- the answer is a clear "maybe"
13:31<planetmaker>or "depends"
13:32<planetmaker>default industries are not limited - except by the total amount of industries
13:32<planetmaker>newgrf industries may be limited, I guess
13:32<+glx>you can have a limit of 1 per town
13:32*andythenorth needs to bite the bullet and figure out closure / production change parameters
13:32<planetmaker>oh indeed :-)
13:32<andythenorth>planetmaker ^ want to help
13:32<planetmaker>I never have that setting on. Is it actually default, glx?
13:33<planetmaker>hey andythenorth. Nice changelog to FIRS 0.2 :-)
13:33<andythenorth>I can do the closure varact 2 easy enough, it's the actual settings that need thought
13:33<andythenorth>and how to provide them as simple parameters
13:33<planetmaker>please elaborate :-)
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13:34<planetmaker>you don't want them to close (at all?) or only more slowly?
13:34-!-asilv [] has joined #openttd
13:34<planetmaker>Or close until there are XX / 512^2 at minimum
13:34<andythenorth>I'll make a list of desirable options
13:35<planetmaker>maybe give them 100 years w/o service, then close
13:35<planetmaker>or... hm
13:36<planetmaker>@calc ln(2)
13:36<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Error: 'ln' is not a defined function.
13:36<planetmaker>@calc log(0.5,2.7)
13:36<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: -0.697856474456
13:40<planetmaker>@calc exp(-0.6978567/50)
13:40<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 0.986139815226
13:40<planetmaker>andythenorth: 50% of the industries closing in 50 years means an annual closure probablility of 1.4%
13:41<planetmaker>x = exp( ln(0.5) / years)
13:41<andythenorth>controlling for that is *really* difficult
13:41<planetmaker>actually... 1-x = ...
13:41<planetmaker>andythenorth: monthly?
13:41<planetmaker>random closure?
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13:42<andythenorth>it should work as you described by law of large numbers
13:42<planetmaker>dunno, is that possible?
13:42-!-asilv [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:42<andythenorth>but of course random is random :)
13:42<planetmaker>andythenorth: and then you can activate a minimum left-over
13:42<planetmaker>don't close, if last or 2nd last
13:42<andythenorth>I'm trying to make a list of what options should be available to player
13:43<planetmaker>only one concerning industry closures:
13:43<planetmaker>speed :-)
13:43<planetmaker>0 = don't close
13:43<planetmaker>value is in permille closure per year
13:43<planetmaker>thus 14 would be close half in 50 years
13:44<planetmaker>and define to keep the last industry
13:44<planetmaker>if a player doesn't chose to service it, it may close
13:44<planetmaker>(except last)
13:45<planetmaker>the above formula is also easily modified to monthly closure callbacks
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r20002 /trunk/src/lang/ (traditional_chinese.txt turkish.txt unfinished/irish.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 13 changes by josesun
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: irish - 160 changes by tem
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: turkish - 12 changes by niw3
13:46<planetmaker>maybe it's better given in 1/10000 then instead of 1/1000
13:46<planetmaker>no need for exponential functions, just randomness ensures that :-)
13:48<andythenorth>I need to figure out what parameter options players get and how they are set
13:48<andythenorth>there is also some older thinking here:
13:49<planetmaker>andythenorth: just half the probability, if only ENSP are supplied
13:49<planetmaker>you'd have closure handled by the same thing then
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13:50<planetmaker>oh, mis-read production/closure
13:50<planetmaker>but still it'd make sense :-)
13:51<planetmaker>and production change chances with/out ENSP can be hard coded
13:51<planetmaker>scenario mode might be a separate parameter as it then controls opening industries.
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13:52<planetmaker>or... allow value -1 to the closure probability parameter: -1 then means: no closures, no openings --> effective scenario mode
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13:55<andythenorth>planetmaker: maybe a separate param for scenario mode
13:55<andythenorth>as there will also be secondary behaviour to consider
13:55<andythenorth>is there any benefit to offering control over primary / secondary closure separately?
14:00<planetmaker>possibly. But I wouldn't bother now
14:00<planetmaker>*someone* *somewhen* will always find it good ;-)
14:00<andythenorth>personally I dislike primary closure, but I'm fine with secondary closure
14:02<VVG>i actually liked that a bunch of unserviced industries closed down, i couldn't to connect them all at start and now i can't keep up with newly opened :)
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14:03<andythenorth>VVG: secondary or primary
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14:04<andythenorth>what's better: one parameter with a complicated bit mask, or more parameters?
14:05<VVG>primary, i try to have large stations at secondaries, so it is one of a kind of secondary i keep
14:05<planetmaker>but depends upon "complicated"
14:05-!-Adambean [] has joined #openttd
14:06<VVG>calcutaling is harded than deciding on/off, so it is not dependant on defenition of complicated :)
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14:10<VVG>what is the maximum production of a mine?
14:11-!-argon [] has joined #openttd
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14:11<argon>a proposal, make shared order a default behaviour when cloning vehicles, that would save so much time :)
14:13<elho>argon: just press ctrl when cloning :)
14:13<argon>hey that works? thanks!
14:14<elho>ctrl does good things to almost any action in the game ;)
14:14<VVG>i actually have a proposal too
14:15<VVG>make a new option at "manage list" dropdown menu -> "create vehicle group from current list"
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14:17<argon>thanks elho :) that was going to be my next question, if it's in the wiki and if someone should add it, you're a mindreader
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14:18<andythenorth>VVG: max production is something like 1080t or 2048t, I forget :)
14:19<VVG>what should i look for in nfo if i decode FIRS grf to check it?
14:19*elho just wished ctrl while building bridges would not build the last built but the latest available type
14:20<andythenorth>VVG the chances of you working it out from FIRS code alone are low, unless you also understand the game's production logis
14:20<andythenorth>logic /s
14:20<andythenorth>however, you'll find the code much easier to read here, should you wish to try :)
14:20<planetmaker>VVG: besides: if you can have the commented source code: why de-compile it?
14:20<planetmaker>what andy says
14:21<planetmaker>but then: I grant you: it's not easy...
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14:21<planetmaker><3 NML :-)
14:21<andythenorth>VVG: for a coal mine, it's the same as the default game apparently
14:21<andythenorth>I haven't set any production multiplier
14:26<planetmaker>andythenorth: why a new issue for that? :-)
14:26<andythenorth>the old parameter ticket got really baffling
14:27<planetmaker>I'd make default=0, if somewhat sensible
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14:28<planetmaker>that way if one wants to change only a particular parameter one can savely enter
14:28<planetmaker>0 0 0 myvalue
14:28<andythenorth>all the things for value = 0 are what I'd choose as defaults
14:29<andythenorth>maybe not all my personal preference
14:29<planetmaker>and currently #3 and #4 seem like duplication to 90% extend
14:29<andythenorth>you're correct
14:30<andythenorth>for param #3
14:30<andythenorth>value 4 = no openings?
14:30<planetmaker>then I'd actually code #3 as bit switch. And just ^
14:30<andythenorth>and it's a map so add them up
14:30<planetmaker>just don't tell it's a bit switch. Just give the value
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14:31<planetmaker>but it might make internal handling easier :-)
14:31*andythenorth doesn't understand the difference between bit switches and bit maps / masks
14:31<planetmaker>andythenorth: there's none
14:31<andythenorth>okey doket
14:31<andythenorth>dokey /s
14:31<planetmaker>a bit setting is a set of on/off-switches
14:31<andythenorth>so we call those a bit switch or bit map
14:31<planetmaker>and then you can mask-out the one you're interested in
14:31<planetmaker>IIRC that's the same, yes
14:32<andythenorth>So can we agree a term for something that isn't a bit switch, i.e. there is no addition - like radio buttons.
14:32<planetmaker>actually... you mask-out everything else except what you're interested in ;-)
14:32<andythenorth>e.g. economy
14:32<planetmaker>that's a setting
14:32<andythenorth>I'll amend the ticket
14:33<planetmaker>well. a single bit-switch is also a setting... but only a boolean one. A setting which has 0...7 is... well... a normal setting :-)
14:34<andythenorth>planetmaker: updated the ticket
14:35<andythenorth>afk for a bit, but your thoughts would be useful :)
14:35<VVG>hee. i though that maybe there is just simple to read and understand value of maximum production :)
14:36<VVG>it's just i noticed one of mine coal mines have been at 1k production for sometime now without growing more, hence i wondered if i hit the maximum
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14:41<planetmaker>quak! :-)
14:41<frosch123>evening :)
14:41<andythenorth>hi frosch123
14:41<frosch123>everyone at home?
14:41<frosch123>hello planetmaker, hello andythenorth
14:41<planetmaker>Ammler and __ln__ won't be.
14:41<planetmaker>dunno about Zuu
14:44<Yexo>plural of aircraft is aircraft, right? (without s at the end)
14:45<Yexo>hello frosch123
14:45<Yexo>and thanks
14:46<frosch123>hmm, i should have answered "ye"
14:46<frosch123>evening yexo :)
14:51<fjb>Quak frosch123
14:52<frosch123>moin fjb
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14:52<frosch123>oh, i remember, i was instructed to extend the highlight rules
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15:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r20003 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 2 dirs): -Feature [FS#3886]: [NewGRF] var 43 depot build date for railtypes
15:14<planetmaker>yippieh! :-)
15:15<planetmaker>pony for me
15:15<planetmaker>is there a possibility by the user to toggle visibility of rail fences?
15:16<planetmaker>hm, yes. full details
15:16<Yexo>full detail I think
15:16<planetmaker>:-) thanks
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15:17<planetmaker>I'm just toying the idea to change rail fences into hedges or something like that
15:17<planetmaker>which would then possibly be of a higher height than fences
15:17<planetmaker>thus it might be important to be able to switch them off
15:17<Yexo>just make that another parameter for that to switch between fences/hedges
15:17<planetmaker>well. yes.
15:18<planetmaker>but ingame on a MP server one might need it while building or so
15:18<planetmaker>if there's a hedge covering the tracks, I'd like to see them dispite
15:27<@peter1138>so are you making some rail types?
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15:31<Yexo>peter1138: see
15:31<planetmaker>yes, I do
15:32<planetmaker>swedish rails on bananas
15:35<elho>planetmaker: will fast trains in fall make the leaves come off the hedges when passing? ;P
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15:35<planetmaker>elho: I cannot detect trains ;-)
15:36<elho>yeah, just kidding :)
15:36<planetmaker>but I try to just use the available options as good as possible
15:36<planetmaker>Without changing the track properties that is.
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16:00<planetmaker>peter1138: it's really a nice feature
16:01<planetmaker>and it's quite fun considering the possibilities it gives
16:01<planetmaker>especially these nice things like making them landscape aware...
16:01<planetmaker>snowy depots, snowy fences... nice level crossings
16:02<planetmaker>it just looks so much better
16:02<elho>snow \o/
16:02<@peter1138>planetmaker, let me know what features need adding ;)
16:03<elho>hmm, so a diagonal tile is 4/3 the distance to travel of a straight one, but space wise it is only half? i must be missing something... :o
16:04<@peter1138>you're assuming physics etc applies :)
16:04<elho>peter1138: not really. but maybe i'm wrong in assuming a connection between gfx and logics ;)
16:06<planetmaker>peter1138: a link to the station gfx: has roof yes/no
16:06<planetmaker>so that I can draw snowy tracks or not for stations
16:06<planetmaker>snow under the roofs looks strange
16:07<@peter1138>no such flag :s
16:07<planetmaker>I know
16:07<planetmaker>:-) that's why it's a feature request ;-)
16:08<planetmaker>with depots I can provide my own graphics where I over-paint the tracks with the depot graphics
16:08<planetmaker>but with stations I cannot
16:08<elho>but i'm failling to see the two vehicle on a straight tile thing
16:10<elho>TrainLocoHandler calls TrainController once for every 192 speed on a straight tile resp. every 256 speed on a diagonal tile.
16:11<elho>TrainController AIUI advances a vehicle one tile.
16:16<elho>aha, GetNewVehiclePos only moves by one pixel. should have known logics in (former) commercial games are contrieved enough to suddenly factor in the gfx :P
16:17<Rubidium>they're not moved by pixels
16:17<Rubidium>tiles are just subdivided into a 16x16 grid on which a vehicle can be
16:18<Rubidium>or actually the whole map has that "grid" for positioning vehicles
16:22<__ln__>East Side Gallery [x], Fernsehturm [x], Alexanderplatz [x], U-bahn [x]
16:23<planetmaker>nice :-)
16:23<planetmaker>checkpoint charlie
16:24<planetmaker>the latter is a matter of "sight seeing" vs. "getting a feeling how it looks off the beaten track"
16:25<__ln__>i think my hostel is quite much in the kreuzberg area
16:26<planetmaker>good :-)
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16:29<planetmaker>walkd from "Unter den Linden through the Brandenburg gate to 'Straße des 17 Juli', through Tiergarten, past Siegersäule to the Kurfürstendamm
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16:30<elho>don't skip c-base ;)
16:30<elho>Rubidium: i see. that subdiivision is TILE_SIZE which is != TILE_PIXELS :)
16:31<elho>but then the comment "Get position information of a vehicle when moving one pixel in the direction it is facing" for GetNewVehiclePos() is misleading
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16:36<Zuu>Good evening
16:36<Yexo>good evening Zuu
16:37<Zuu>doh, irritated sweds on vacation are annoying. Had some of those on the train from Hamburg to copenhagen.
16:37<Zuu>Thanks for a nice party :-)
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16:43*Zuu wonders if there is any reason apart from comersial reasons why you on a 45 min ferry are not allowed to stay in the train, while it is perfectly fine on a over-night ferry.
16:44<Rubidium>I'd say "safety"
16:44<Rubidium>"safety" as in the train + ferry combination are not "certified" for having people on board of the train
16:44<Zuu>Sure, it might be safer to be at the upper deck, but how is it more un-safe to be at the lower deck at one fery than the other.
16:45<Zuu>Could be different certificated ferries/trains though.
16:46<elho>with only a 45min ride, too few people would leave the train and buy stuff in the restaurant of the ferry if they were not forced to :P
16:52<planetmaker>hey Zuu :-)
16:52<fjb>Moin Zuu
16:54<Zuu>hey pm, on the platform of the train I was going to take there arrived a direct train to Havover which I went on and took me to Hanover. No idea if it was the usual way or a detour as I haven't traveled there before. ^^
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16:56<planetmaker>interesting. But it might have travelled via Hildesheim - the route taken alternatively
16:57<Zuu>It said on the displays that the trains to hanover would be about 10-20 minutes delayed.
16:58<planetmaker>yeah... that's the length of the detour :-)
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17:58*Zuu suggests serving audigex a 3-4 year old cake
17:59<Zuu>(in response to his r20k topic suggestion)
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20:32<nicfer>good night
20:33<PeterT>night sir
20:34<nicfer>has the game some shortcut for take/pay loans?
20:35<PeterT>hold ctrl when clicking on borrow/return loans
20:36<nicfer>I mean, a keyboard shortcut
20:36<nicfer>and I know about the borrow/return all trick
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20:42<PeterT>not that I know of, nicfer
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22:16<nicfer>is just me, or the random city creator should not put cities not too close each other?
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23:21<De_Ghosty>stop adding so many city
23:21<De_Ghosty>on a small map
---Logclosed Mon Jun 21 00:00:35 2010