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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-06-22

---Logopened Tue Jun 22 00:00:36 2010
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01:06<argotron>I would like to compile OpenTTD for Leopard and Snow Leopard Mac OS X, but I'm not sure what files to get by svn. I tried svn:// but it will compile the latest nightly build. I would like to compile the latest stable version.
01:26<argotron>svn:// found it! :)
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02:05<argotron>configure: error: no liblzo2 detected
02:06<argotron>I just install it via macports
02:06<argotron>I get the same behaviour on both 10.5 and 10.6
02:09<DDR>The lib is installed, right?
02:09<Rubidium>it's probably just installed somewhere unexpectedly
02:10<Rubidium>I would ask the Mac OS X port maintainer to help you, but... there isn't one (which is probably the issue you've got as well)
02:12<argotron>the lib is installed, yes
02:13<argotron>well, where does OpenTTD configure looks for it?
02:13<Rubidium>in /usr and /usr/local I guess
02:14<@peter1138>why don't we use pkg-config for these things?
02:14<Rubidium>in any case, it looks in the same places as it looks for zlib (which is apparantly does find for you)
02:14<Rubidium>peter1138: because pkg-config for liblzo2 is Debian specific
02:15<argotron>yes, zlib is ok
02:15<@peter1138>oh right, lzo doesn't have a pc file (even on debian)
02:16*peter1138 goes back to bed
02:17<Rubidium>hmm, why do I see to remember liblzo2 having something pkg-config-y when it doesn't have it?
02:17<argotron>is it ok to distribute MacOS X OpenTTD bundles on my website?
02:18<@peter1138>argotron, technically you need to distribute the source too
02:18<argotron>no problem
02:18<Rubidium>as long as you comply to the license
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02:18<argotron>There will be links to the official website too
02:19<argotron>well, it worked just fine with --without-liblzo2
02:19*Rubidium wonders how long it takes before people complain about it being broken in some way
02:24<argotron>RUbidium, thanks for OpenTTD. I haven't got the chance to chat with you before. Thanks a lot for you work, it's an amazing game
02:26<Ammler>argotron: please make specially the changes from original sources to your sources verbose, for example link to original source and provide a patch.
02:27<argotron>I haven't touch the sources
02:27<argotron>I got them via svn, ./configure, make, make build
02:27<Ammler>then a link to or whatever should be fine
02:27<argotron>sure, will do
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02:37<Mazur>And the search continues.
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02:58<argotron>allright, here it is:
03:09<Ammler>argotron: Does it need the link to the download of TTD beside openttd?
03:09<argotron>I thought it is a good ideea for people who like TTD graphics better
03:09<argotron>like me
03:09<Ammler>as ttd isn't abandoned and therefore it is illegal
03:10<Ammler> <-- 2nd point
03:11<__ln__>one cannot implicitly "abandon" copyright anyway
03:12<Ammler>(you could link to amazon for example)
03:13<argotron>fixed it
03:14<Ammler>I got a 404
03:15<argotron>where? on main URL?
03:16<Ammler>no, the osx bundle
03:18<planetmaker>hm... are there no snowy fences possible also with railtypes?
03:18<argotron>Ammler, sorry for that, my bad, it should work now
03:18<argotron>thanks for pointing it out
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03:34*Rubidium wonders why you're not making an universal build with PPC
03:35<Rubidium>after all, all the OS X trouble started when they started using x86 instead of PPC
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03:41<argotron>I tried making universal
03:41<argotron>when linking, it gave me an error related to PPC
03:41<argotron>it could not link, or something like that
03:42<argotron>oh wait
03:42<argotron>this was on Snow
03:42<argotron>let me try it on Leopard
03:43<Rubidium>probably macports doesn't give you support for that out of the box or something
03:43<Rubidium>like not providing universal libraries
03:43<Rubidium>interesting that you link against an unstable ICU though
03:44<argotron>unstable ICU?
03:44<argotron>I've just sudo port install icu
03:44<Rubidium>yes, ICU 4.3 is the development version number for ICU 4.4
03:45<planetmaker>macports by default only compiles libraries which match the current environment
03:45<planetmaker>macports accepts as parameter UNIVERSAL:=1
03:45<planetmaker>at least for some libraries.
03:45<planetmaker>it has to be supported by the respective package
03:46<planetmaker>but even then UNIVERSAL has a different meaning depending upon the SDK you build against.
03:46<argotron>how about sudo port install lzo2 +universal ?
03:46<planetmaker>e.g. on 10.6 it only means to build i386 and x64 libraries
03:46<planetmaker>argotron: yes, that way
03:46<planetmaker>as such a ppc build will need building at least against 10.5
03:47<argotron>will try doing it now
03:47<argotron>I'm no programmer, I'm just doing this for myself
03:47<Rubidium>although for universal you should link against the 10.4u SDK/libraries
03:48<argotron>and I thought sharing with anyone interested, though any help or input is greatly appreciated, since making a quality think is a top priority
03:49<planetmaker>argotron: building a truely universal binary is unfortunately not quite straight forward
03:49<Rubidium>then you're probably better of fixing the bugs than figuring out how to make a universal build :)
03:50<argotron>I could report bugs, I have little knowledge on how to fix them :)
03:51<Rubidium>oh, there are even more bugs than the ones already reported
03:52<argotron>don't ask me, my previous OpenTTD worked flawlessly (Windows7, WindowsX, Leopard)
03:52<argotron>I'm new to this dev part :)
03:53<argotron>erm, WindowsXP that is
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03:56*planetmaker wants snowy fences
03:56<argotron>interesting, after sudo port install lzo2 +universal, ./configure --enable-universal works and don't spit out errors about lzo2
03:57<planetmaker>you will fail to install libtimidi via this easy macports way
03:57<planetmaker>or I just didn't find it
03:58<argotron>currently make-ing
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04:01<argotron>src/table/settings.h:660: warning: integer overflow in expression
04:01<argotron>but keeps on going
04:02<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r20009 /trunk/src/signs_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3893]: sign sorting was unstable
04:02<argotron>well, I don't think it will work:
04:03<Rubidium>what do you think those errors tell you?
04:04<Rubidium>start as usual at the top because later errors/warnings can easily be caused by the cause of earlier errors/warnings
04:05<argotron>I'll let it finish and then post the whole log
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04:13<argotron>fail compiling an universal:
04:14<Rubidium>could've told you it would completely fail
04:14<Rubidium>your libicu library is not a universal library so it fails linking to it for PPC
04:15<Rubidium>the settings.h:660 warning makes no sense to me
04:18<Eddi|zuHause>there's 5 kinds of issues in there: 1) icu not universal, 2) zlib is duplicate, 3) warning in settings.cpp, 4) warnings in newgrf_debug, 5) warnings in smallmap_gui
04:19<Rubidium>the last is broken compiler
04:19<Rubidium>then one before that is pointless (or is the destructor called on exit()?)
04:22<Rubidium>the one before that I've got no clue about; there doesn't seem to be that much math in that line (or the macro expression expanded line for that matter)
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04:39<argotron>allright, website moved to
04:39<argotron>hopefully, it will stay here
04:43<@peter1138>chrome[18833]: segfault at bbadbeef
04:55<Rubidium>were you reading about unicorn meat?
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05:36<argotron>on Snow Leopard, are there any switches for x86_64 or i386 options, when compiling OpenTTD?
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06:33<Rubidium>argotron: probably something with CFLAGS="-arch ..."
06:38<planetmaker>argotron, most easy - if you only want one architecture is to use gcc_select
06:38<planetmaker>ah, nvm. wrong answer of mine ;-)
06:38<argotron>I would like to build it for both archs
06:38<argotron>both 32 and 64 bits
06:39<planetmaker>then just --enable-universal is sufficient
06:39<planetmaker>if you're on 10.6
06:40<planetmaker>you just have to make sure to have all required libraries also as i386 and x64 version present
06:40<planetmaker>e.g. having installed them via macports with +universal on 10.6
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06:40<argotron>I tried that, but it fails while trying to compile for PowerPC
06:41<argotron>on 10.6, that is
06:41<Rubidium>planetmaker: it will always try to make PPC binaries with --enable-universal and never 64 bits (for that you need --enable-universal=64)
06:41<Rubidium>but then you're still going to need PPC stuff
06:45<planetmaker>Rubidium, true. Thanks
06:45<argotron>I'm trying to avoid PPC stuff
06:45<planetmaker>forgot about that...
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07:17<@peter1138>yay, another chrome segfault
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09:43<fjb>Moin Belugas
09:44<@Belugas>yo yo jfb
09:44<@Belugas>it's morning you have to be forgiving
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10:32<Ammler>he, glx, looks like you got free time for coding ;-)
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>south africa must win with at least 3 goals ahead, and in mex-uru one must lose, then south africa has chances to go on
10:34<Ammler>yes, but if France loses, mex and uru will qualify
10:35<Ammler>or shall I check the table again?
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>they both have 2 points, and the others have both 5 points, i believe
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>so it can be 8,5,5,2 then between the 5's the goal difference counts
10:36<+glx>mex and uru just need a draw
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>yes, if they have a draw, it's 6,6,5,2
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>or 6,6,3,3
10:36<PeterT>glx: I think france will lose :p
10:37<+glx>of course they will :)
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: theoretically, they play against one of the weakest teams in the world cup
10:38<PeterT>South Africa got another goal literally 5 seconds after you said that
10:38<Ammler>but they are resistant against vuvuzelas ;-)
10:38<Rubidium>I doubt France will loose in the 90 minutes alotted
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: oh, so THAT's the plan :p
10:39<Rubidium>or is the game already started?
10:39<Ammler>yes, around 30 mins
10:39<PeterT>Rubidium: yep, started 38 minutes ago ;-)
10:39<Rubidium>and they didn't strike?
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10:39<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: france has 1 player less, because of red card
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10:39<Eddi|zuHause>(which was, apparently, too hard)
10:40<PeterT>too harsh, you mean?
10:40<PeterT>I agree, it was only an elbow to the face
10:41<@Belugas>better that then a hockey stick, if you want my opinion ;)
10:41<@Belugas>i think
10:41<PeterT>haha :-)
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>correct, Belugas ;)
10:41<+glx>seems way more valid than Kaka explusion :)
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>but don't they have helmets in hockey?
10:42<PeterT>glx: Kaka got a red? how are they going to win against portugal then?
10:42<Ammler>[16:39] <Eddi|zuHause> (which was, apparently, too hard) <-- many red "wrong" red cards already
10:42<@Belugas>yeah, but it's not enough. they should wear knight armor, those guys
10:44<@Belugas>in the mean time, i've got something to announce!
10:44<PeterT>Uruguay scores!
10:44<@Belugas>today is the last day of school for my son before summer vacations!!
10:44<Rubidium>Belugas: the horror! :)
10:44<PeterT>Belugas: congratulations! what grade?
10:45<@Belugas>for my wife, yes ;)
10:45<@Belugas>in septembre, he'll be on 1st grade :)
10:45<PeterT>so he just finished Kindergarten
10:45<planetmaker>oh :-)
10:45<planetmaker>he looks as old that I thought he'd already attend school
10:46<planetmaker>will be sooo exciting for him ;-)
10:46<@Belugas>yup. he's happy. he'll be with the olds now ;)
10:46<PeterT>hehe :-)
10:46<@Belugas>planetmaker, he's the tallest of his level.
10:46<planetmaker>As long as he's looking forward all is fine :-)
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>there's always gonna be someone older :p
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>and they tend to always be the same guys :p
10:46<PeterT>well, I enter my first year of high school next year :-D
10:46<@Belugas>whihc, as i've seen, is a good argument for him to the an openttd dev soon:D
10:47<@Belugas>been tall.. that is..
10:48<@Belugas>PeterT, first year of high school? in US you mean? that makes you like a teenager?
10:48<Ammler>hmm, what is that? 16?
10:48<@peter1138>he's a young whippersnapper
10:48<@Belugas>that must be an exciting moment. I can't remember my own time, to be honest
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>watching a game on mute with subtitles is funny :)
10:49<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: because the subtitles lag a lot?
10:49<PeterT>Belugas: yes, in US. I'm going to be 15 and going into 9th grade :)
10:49<Rubidium>telling what has been said half a minute ago or something?
10:50<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: yeah, about like that...
10:50<@Belugas>yurk... here is my delivery ... 254 logs to analyse
10:50<PeterT>I think in the US, teenager is from 13-20 or so
10:50*Belugas is on another planet now
10:50<Rubidium>Belugas: add 2 and you're done!
10:51<@Belugas>good luck and good fun, PeterT
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>what would be funny now if france now doesn't appear anymore, and south africa gets scored 5:0 ;)
10:51<+glx>only if log count is uint8
10:51<PeterT>Belugas, thanks very much :)
10:52<Rubidium>ofcourse it is
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11:20<__ln__>Tegel is quite non-big to be an airport of a capital city of a big country
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>west berlin kinda hat space-problems :p
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>schönefeld in east berlin is bigger
11:25<__ln__>and somewhere i read that they are building something new to replace tegel
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>the second problem of tegel is, that it is not reachable by train
11:25<__ln__>i was just about to say tegel doesn't have rail connection
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>afair, they are expanding schönefeld into "berlin brandenburg international"
11:26<__ln__>(not that any airport in finland would have, not even helsinki)
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>many german airports have rail connection
11:28<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: but... even Amsterdam's airport is directly reachable from Berlin by train
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>there's an agreement that inner-german flight tickets are also valid on ICE trains on the same route
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11:30<__ln__>of german airports i've flown to/from Hamburg, Bremen, München, Hannover and Tegel, and only Tegel and Hamburg (at least back then) weren't connected by rail
11:33<planetmaker>[17:26] <__ln__> [17:20:21] Tegel is quite non-big to be an airport of a capital city of a big country <-- Berlin has three airports. All together they add up :-)
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>three? i thought they closed tempelhof?
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>haha... "france shot a goal, that makes them better than 2002 in south korea and japan"
11:35<planetmaker>Schönefeld, Tegel and Tempelhof
11:35<planetmaker>yes, the latter is closed meanwhile
11:35<__ln__>tempelhof runway was filled with people rollerskating, but they didn't have wings. nor proper lights.
11:35<Eoin>lolololol south africa
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: tegel might be fairly small, but you can get totally lost when driving a car :p
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>and you can only park 20 minutes for free, which is kinda bad when the arriving plane is 50 minutes late
11:39<__ln__>that can be a problem
11:41<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: the free parking time is quite common for airports
11:41<planetmaker>the parking fees seem to follow a 1/r law wrt to the entrance of the airports
11:41<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: maybe they should do it like Marseille station; it's 10 minutes, but they stay there for more than an hour without getting fined
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: you can stay longer, but each 10 minutes more is like 3€
11:42<__ln__>i went to the Reichstag building before 10 o'clock this morning, but the line was already like 200 meters
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>you have to pay on exit
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i never managed to get inside
11:43<planetmaker>outch @ __ln__
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>so... south africa has 6 more minutes to shoot 3 goals :p
11:46<__ln__>that must be the so-called 'foot ball' you are talking about
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>the finnish candy is great, but it's empty so fast
11:47<__ln__>good to hear you liked it
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>did you know that german is the only language where "Finnland" is written with two n?
11:49<__ln__>i didn't know but i would have guessed so
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>well, "important" language...
11:50<__ln__>i assume Dumle is not available in germany despite the fact that the bag has text in german, czech and all other imaginable languages?
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>i have never seen it
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>but maybe i never looked
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11:51<__ln__>i've also never seen it outside the nordic countries
11:52<fjb>The finish candy is really great.
11:53<__ln__>so, there's yet another reason for you both to visit finland
11:54<Rubidium>it reminds me of "Chokotoff", although that's (much) harder
11:54<__ln__>fjb: thanks again for the ride, btw
11:55<fjb>No problem, the hotel was in my direction any way.
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11:57<__ln__>uh oh, too much gprs data already, gotta go offline.
11:57<__ln__>copenhagen airport out
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12:17<@Belugas>hoo... the frosch123 man!
12:17<@Belugas>welcome aboard
12:18<frosch123>afternoon belugas :) evening everyone else
12:19<planetmaker>hello frosch123
12:21<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r20010 /trunk/src/lang/unfinished/chuvash.txt: -Add: Chuvash language stub
12:25*frosch123 was never good at geography
12:26<planetmaker>central Asia
12:27<@Belugas>ALL OVER THE WORLD!!!
12:30<planetmaker>yes. true. By 34000 people outside of Chuvashia
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12:32<Eddi|zuHause>what the heck is chuvashia?
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>never heard of that place
12:33<@peter1138>sounds like a local village for local people
12:33<frosch123>something between russia and turkey
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>that is _in_ russia
12:35<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: I wonder what Chuvashia is as well... it is said to be a republic but part of Russian
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>well, russia is a federal state
12:36<Eddi|zuHause>so it's perfectly plausible that it consists of different republics with certain autonomous rights
12:36<Rubidium>so Russia is like the EU?
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>it's a little difficult to get it historically right...
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>but even under communistic rule it was called a "federal republic"
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>"russian socialistic federal soviet republic" -> "RSFSR"
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>(and today it's called "Russian federation")
12:40<Rubidium>so it's a bit of a special case
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12:44<Eddi|zuHause>wikipedia says "republics" were created for non-russian people within russian territory
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>other areas have less autonomy
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13:12*Rubidium pre-emptively burries Wolf01
13:15<fjb>Moin Wolf01
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r20011 /trunk/src/lang/ (indonesian.txt swedish.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: indonesian - 4 changes by adjayanto
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: swedish - 11 changes by tool
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14:08-!-Alberth is now known as Guest812
14:08-!-Alberth1 is now known as Alberth
14:10<@Belugas>welcome home sir Alberth
14:10<Alberth>hello Belugas
14:13<fjb>Hello Alberth
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14:14<Alberth>it is a bit quiet here, it seems
14:14<Alberth>hello fjb
14:14<@Belugas>quite :)
14:14<Wolf01>hello Alberth
14:14<@Belugas>people are saying hello and just go silent :)
14:15<Alberth>hmm, I should stop typing words here, then :)
14:15<PeterT>hello fjb, Belugas, Wolf01, Alberth
14:15*PeterT silent
14:17<Alberth>anybody know how to convince hg that changes in line-endings are not real changes, and can be ignored safely?
14:18<Eddi|zuHause> -w --ignore-all-space ignore white space when comparing lines?
14:20<@Belugas>hg... one day, i shold get on it...
14:20<Alberth>today seems like a good day to me :)
14:21<@Belugas>hem... nope, i'm only halfway through my 254 logs uner investigation ;)
14:21<@Belugas>but thanks for the invitation hehehe
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14:46<Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: I have the Win32text extension enabled , and it makes a mess with a file that has different line endings
14:47<Alberth>But they now also have EolExtension, I noticed, which seems very interesting
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15:07<Ammler>dunno, if that is still up2date :-/
15:09*Alberth does hard-core cli terminal usually
15:09<Ammler>well, that is also for the console mercurial
15:11<Ammler>tortoisehg is just a frontend, afaik
15:11<Yexo>you can set all those options also in ~/.hgrc
15:13<Ammler>tortoisehg is btw. also very nice on linux :-)
15:16<Alberth>yes, but you cannot script clicking on a button, hence I prefer cli
15:17<Alberth>Ammler: "... it's decided that only Unix style line endings should be used in commits..." still holds?
15:17<Alberth>if so, the docs/license.ptxt is broken.
15:17<Ammler>Alberth: well, that was made for opengfx
15:17<Alberth>(and it should be "it has been decided", I think, but that is another matter)
15:18<Ammler>I think, it is generally up to the project managers :-)
15:18<Alberth>oh, for swedishrails is that
15:18<Ammler>but I guess, a good recommendation
15:18<Alberth>I will ask pm when he returns :p
15:18<Alberth>thanks for the info
15:19<Ammler>we also found out, that the readme linebreaks at least for the releases should be windows
15:19<Ammler>as linux can easy ignore \r but windows needs it
15:20<Alberth>makes sense
15:20<Ammler>but that should be done by unix2dos
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15:36<Alberth>exactly :)
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15:38<Alberth>perhaps 'type' is also broken, but it is unlikely that any windows user would ever find that command :)
15:40<Ammler>well, players usually don't have something else then notepad to read readme
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15:40<Ammler>and you can't blame those to read the readme if it is only useable with proper reader
15:41<Alberth>they also have wordpad then, but adding \r seems like a good idea to me for the win* users
15:41-!-z-MaTRiX [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:41<Ammler>and for openttd, it is easy, they can customize the readme for plattform, we can't :-)
15:42<Rubidium>Ammler: we can't either... it has \r if you're using wine when it wouldn't be needed
15:42<Ammler>hehe :-P
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16:25<andythenorth>anything happening?
16:27<Rubidium>andythenorth: some andythenorth entity is asking whether anything is happening
16:29<andythenorth>these are cute:
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>that's the Rhätische Bahn, right?
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16:42<__ln__>10 HOME SWEET : 20 GOTO 10
16:45<frosch123>hmm, yes, basic used colons for separating instructions. would not have remembered that
16:46<+glx>but the "20" is syntax error in this case IIRC
16:47<__ln__>yes, probably, now that i think of it
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17:10<@Belugas>night, i
17:10<@Belugas>m runnning a way, tired and opissed
17:11<Alberth>good night
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17:28<SmatZ>@seen Zachanima
17:28<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: Zachanima was last seen in #openttd 3 days, 22 hours, 10 minutes, and 26 seconds ago: <zachanima> that would be nothing less than swell
17:29<SmatZ>he's gone :(
17:36-!-ajmiles [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:36<PeterT>SmatZ: so?
17:40-!-Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
17:41<PeterT>he could come back :-)
17:41<__ln__>fjb: that's PeterT above
17:42<PeterT>__ln__: ?
17:42-!-ajmiles [] has joined #openttd
17:43<Yexo>__ln__: fjb only needed one line from PeterT yesterday to say "oh, that PeterT"
17:43<PeterT>what are you guys talking about?
17:43<__ln__>ah, i haven't read the backlog thoroughly enough
17:44<fjb>__ln__: I know by now. :-)
17:44<fjb>__ln__: But thank you.
17:46<__ln__>btw, how many nationalities did we have... seven?
17:47-!-Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:48<Yexo>german, dutch, swiss, czech, danish, swedish <- I only count 6
17:48<Yexo>ah, seven :)
17:48<Yexo>finnish, right?
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18:15<Nekomaster>Hey guys
18:17-!-Dreamxtreme [~Dreamxtre@] has joined #openttd
18:17<Nekomaster>Anyone around?
18:18<Yexo>please read the topic
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18:19<Nekomaster>What topic?
18:20<Yexo>of this channel
18:20<Yexo>@topic get -2
18:20<@DorpsGek>Yexo: Don't ask to ask, just ask
18:20<+glx>@topic get 3
18:20<@DorpsGek>glx: Don't ask to ask, just ask
18:20<Nekomaster>Whats that suppose to meen?
18:20-!-asilv [] has quit []
18:20<Yexo>don't ask "anyone around?" first, just ask whatever you want to ask
18:20<Yexo>it's utterly pointless
18:21<Nekomaster>Well sorry for asking if theres people to talk to
18:21-!-TruePikachu [] has joined #openttd
18:21<TruePikachu>I am having quite a lot of trouble with multiplayer
18:22<Nekomaster>How so?
18:22<TruePikachu>The only way I can connect to ANY multiplayer is directly on my loopback
18:22<TruePikachu>(I am on Linux)
18:22<Nekomaster>Ahh... hmm
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18:22*Nekomaster wonders what a loopback is
18:22<TruePikachu>^ that IP
18:22<+glx>you are the server?
18:22<Nekomaster>Normally it should just work
18:23<TruePikachu>I can't find any servers though.
18:23<Nekomaster>unless you have some weird network configureation
18:23<TruePikachu>glx, yes, I hosted
18:23*Nekomaster is trying to make a Narrow Gauge Covered Hopper
18:23<+glx>so it can be normal to not be able to connect to your server via the router
18:24<TruePikachu>wlan0: [PC]->[Wireless Adapter]~>[Wireless Modem]->[WWW]
18:24<+glx>some routers are stupid and don't redirect inside to inside
18:24<TruePikachu>The thing is that the server is only able to be seen on loopback, not even on LAN
18:24<TruePikachu>This router works with inside->inside redirecting all the time
18:25<TruePikachu>(it works correctly all the time)
18:25<Yexo>is there something in the [server_bind_address] section in your config file?
18:25-!-fonsinchen [] has joined #openttd
18:25<Yexo>and how are you starting your server?
18:25<+glx>I mean PC wants to access to PC via public IP
18:25<+glx>but router deny it
18:26<TruePikachu>I start my server by in-game menu
18:26<TruePikachu>[server_bind_addresses] is empty
18:26<+glx>you should be able to join local ip too if loopback works
18:27<TruePikachu>My LAN IP is custom hostname wlan =
18:27<TruePikachu>(so wlan is how the LAN sees me)
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18:27<TruePikachu>remind me of the server port #
18:28<+glx>doesn't look like a private ip
18:28<@DorpsGek>glx: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
18:28<TruePikachu>glx, ?
18:28<TruePikachu>hostname is set in /etc/hosts
18:29<TruePikachu>192.168.0.*** is my LAN
18:29<TruePikachu>This local IP is, subnet, broadcast
18:30<TruePikachu>When I execute 'nmap -p3979 localhost', the port is open. A second instance of OpenTTD also finds it on localhost
18:31<TruePikachu>When I execute 'nmap -p3979 wlan', the port is filtered. A second instance of OpenTTD decides it's offline
18:31<+glx>oh no router
18:32<TruePikachu>I have a feeling that OpenTTD might only be looking at inet lo (which is loopback-only) rather than inet wlan0 (my wireless connection)
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18:33<TruePikachu>oh no router???
18:33<+glx>for me the weird thing is the ip of the PC
18:33<TruePikachu>What makes you sure it's weird?
18:34<TruePikachu>192.168.***.*** is the standardized LAN for home networks
18:34<TruePikachu>Businesses use 10.***.***.*** (I think)
18:35<+glx><TruePikachu> This local IP is <-- so this is the public IP (modem one)
18:36<TruePikachu>That is the public IP address.
18:36<TruePikachu>The is the private IP address, only applying to the LAN
18:37<TruePikachu>I can only see the server from loopback; not from the LAN, not from outside the LAN
18:37<Eddi|zuHause>i suspect the network config is kinda wrong...
18:38<Eddi|zuHause>your information sounds kinda contradicting
18:38<TruePikachu>So do I, but it seems all correct to me.
18:38<TruePikachu>? what do you mean, for this contradicting?
18:39<TruePikachu>*being contradicting
18:39<Eddi|zuHause> <TruePikachu> That is the public IP address.
18:39<Eddi|zuHause> <TruePikachu> The is the private IP address
18:39<+glx>unless it's a bridge connection
18:39<Eddi|zuHause>this is a contradiction in my book
18:40<+glx>in that case there's no router
18:40<+glx>but via wifi that's strange
18:40<TruePikachu>I never said that was the private IP address
18:40<Eddi|zuHause>you did. it's right there...
18:40<+glx>can you reach your server via it's 192.168 ip ?
18:41<+glx>ok then it's the usual stupid router not allowing you to reach public ip via inside
18:41<+glx>and the "from outside" part is missing port redirections
18:42<TruePikachu>No, I've forwarded 3979 to
18:42<+glx>that's wrong
18:42<TruePikachu>And that doesn't explain why it can't be found from inside the network
18:42<+glx>you should forward to your 192.168
18:43-!-Nekomaster [] has quit [Quit: Bye for now!]
18:43<TruePikachu>... is my private IP address; it is my 192.168
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>you're not making sense
18:44<TruePikachu>For the record: Public IP:
18:44<TruePikachu>Private IP:
18:44<+glx>else you don't have a router
18:44-!-Brianetta [] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
18:45<TruePikachu>???what do you mean 'I don't have a router'
18:45<Yexo>a switch is not a router
18:45<+glx>it's wifi
18:45<Yexo>ehm, hub
18:46<+glx>if it's wifi there's a router, and private ip can't be public ip
18:46<TruePikachu>The modem is located in my home, connected to my cable line.
18:46<TruePikachu>The modem has a wireless antenna and 4 LAN ports on it
18:46<+glx>so it's a modem router
18:46<TruePikachu>I am connected to it through the wireless
18:47<+glx>then private ip can't be
18:47<TruePikachu>It isn't
18:47<TruePikachu>15:42 < TruePikachu> For the record: Public IP:
18:47<TruePikachu>15:43 < TruePikachu> Private IP:
18:48<+glx>you just repeated it was
18:48<bryjen>the should be the address on the "public" side of the modem/router. the PCs on the "private" side should all have addresses starting 192.168.
18:48<fjb>Public and private look the same for me, which is noct possible.
18:48<TruePikachu>Is glx a troll?
18:48<bryjen>are you?
18:49<Yexo>no, glx is actually trying to help you
18:49<Yexo>your public and private ip can't be the same if you have a router
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>[23.06.2010 00:47] <TruePikachu> 15:42 < TruePikachu> For the record: Public IP:
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>[23.06.2010 00:47] <TruePikachu> 15:43 < TruePikachu> Private IP:
18:49<bryjen>we're seeing you type the same address for public and private
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>that's what you said
18:49<Yexo>and you keep telling us it is
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>and that is not possible
18:49<TruePikachu>Gosh, wait a moment...
18:49<Yexo>so you are making an error somewhere
18:49<bryjen>that's some intrusive NAT fixing up addresses in IRC traffic ;)
18:50<TruePikachu>I need an image pastebin which does not require registration
18:50<fjb>What does ifconfig tell you?
18:50<TruePikachu>I need a pastebin
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>the NAT screwing up the packets might very well also prevent any kind of connection to openttd servers
18:51<fjb> and
18:51<fjb>Or what Yexo told you. :-)
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>so you should urgently turn off that packet mangling mode in your modem
18:52<TruePikachu>Something is causing problems:
18:53<fjb>But turning off ANT could kill his irc connection. On the other hand...
18:53<bryjen>holy carp. I was only joking...
18:53<TruePikachu>So I am not trying to troll
18:53<TruePikachu>I posted the screenshot from IRC in
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>i have heard fairy tales about such a router mode, but i have never seen it in action
18:54<+glx>first time I see something like that
18:54<fjb>Oh, it mangles every string which contains the private network. That is crappy.
18:54<bryjen>possibly to make DCC work?
18:54<TruePikachu>IRSSI has support for DCC, but I'll need explicite commands to type
18:54<fjb>Even then it is crappy.
18:54<Yexo>with a router messing up things like that all bets are off
18:55<Eddi|zuHause>TruePikachu: you need to read your router manual, how to turn off this modification
18:55<Eddi|zuHause>else we won't be able to help you in any way
18:55<TruePikachu>Explain the modification
18:55<bryjen>no, I meant your router is re-writing the IP addresses in your IRC traffic possibly to help with DCC
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>TruePikachu: your router is checking all outgoing packets, and replaces anything that looks like an internal IP with an external one
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>TruePikachu: this will also mangle packets sent by the openttd server, so they become invalid (and dropped), so connections will fail
18:56<fjb>But something doing that is just another piece of hazadous waste.
18:56<TruePikachu>Either that, or IRSSI is, or the IRC network is
18:57-!-bryjen [~bryjen@] has quit [Quit: Quit]
18:57<+glx>anyway you probably won't be able to reach your pc using the public ip from the inside (some routers are stupid), but with the right redirection configuration people from outside should be able to reach it
18:58<fjb>Make an upöoad to a text bin which contains your locval address. Then we se if it is the the router or irssi.
18:58<TruePikachu>Well, the router thinks the port is closed
18:59<TruePikachu>Can someone here type the standard 'default gateway'?
18:59<FauxFaux>default gateway
18:59<planetmaker>like 'default gateway' ? ;-)
18:59<TruePikachu>one nine two dot one six eight dot one dot one
18:59<+glx>it's usually the router private ip
19:00<TruePikachu>^ in the real way
19:00<+glx> for mine
19:00-!-Illegal_Alien [] has quit [Quit: Try HydraIRC -> <-]
19:00<TruePikachu>does that work here?
19:00<TruePikachu>(bot command)
19:01<TruePikachu>I need a bot command that echos
19:01-!-fonsinchen [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:01<+glx>@say test
19:01<@DorpsGek>TruePikachu: Error: You must be registered to use this command. If you are already registered, you must either identify (using the identify command) or add a hostmask matching your current hostmask (using the "hostmask add" command).
19:01<+glx>[01:01:37] <TruePikachu> @say
19:01<+glx>looks better
19:02<TruePikachu>well, I didn't change anything
19:02<+glx>that's weird
19:02<@DorpsGek>TruePikachu: Error: You must be registered to use this command. If you are already registered, you must either identify (using the identify command) or add a hostmask matching your current hostmask (using the "hostmask add" command).
19:02<+glx>[01:02:30] <TruePikachu> @say
19:02-!-^Spike^ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:02<TruePikachu>So something (most likely IRSSI) is replacing with my external
19:02<planetmaker>you're doing a great job as manual echo, glx ;-)
19:03*fjb needs a glx for the scrips.
19:03<+glx>try an ip in the local range which is not yours, nor the gateway
19:04<TruePikachu>for what?
19:04-!-Polygon [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:04<+glx>to try to find the "rewriter"
19:05*TruePikachu just googled his private IP, searched properly
19:05-!-Lakie [~Lakie@] has quit [Quit: Sleep.]
19:06<+glx>like .248
19:06<fjb>Just say
19:07<TruePikachu>Uh, .20 is my DS
19:07<+glx>just type the ip
19:07<+glx>ok then the rewriter is on your pc
19:07<fjb>That was not mangled.
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>maybe it skips http (port 80) connections
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>so google will work
19:08<TruePikachu>one moment...
19:08-!-TruePikachu [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>try making an SSL connection to this network ;)
19:09<fjb>Something really weird is going on there.
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly sure it's a router setting
19:18<fjb>Hm, connection lost?
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19:22<TruePikachu>It is definitly with my modem or Linux, as KSirc does it too...
19:23<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly sure it's the modem
19:23<Eddi|zuHause>might be called "gaming mode" or something
19:24<TruePikachu>Oh well, the problem is with the connection and servers, NOT with IRC
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>i'm also fairly sure that both are effects of the same problem
19:25<fjb>Apropos gaming, the Killer nic is back. Wonder how many people will by the new version.
19:26<TruePikachu>Well, this is a Netgear CG184WG
19:27<Eddi|zuHause>i don't care what it's called... YOU have the manual to the thing...
19:27<Eddi|zuHause>only you can fix it...
19:27<TruePikachu>Actually, Time Warner has the manual
19:28<fjb>First line of first hit on google for that router: "I'm using a Netgear CG184WG (yes, the notorious one)..."
19:29<TruePikachu>Most problems are for ComCast users
19:29<TruePikachu>Anyway, my Wii works with the modem correctly, so that is the wrong place to look :P
19:30<Eddi|zuHause>if you won't take our advise, why bother asking at all?!?
19:30<fjb>Hm, it didn't look like it works correctly a few line above.
19:31-!-Chrill [] has quit []
19:31<PeterT><TruePikachu> seen<TruePikachu> does that work here?<TruePikachu> (bot command)<Eddi|zuHause> no <-- yes it does, try @seen
19:32<PeterT>You asked about the seen command?
19:32<PeterT>@help seen
19:32<@DorpsGek>PeterT: (seen [<channel>] <nick>) -- Returns the last time <nick> was seen and what <nick> was last seen saying. <channel> is only necessary if the message isn't sent on the channel itself.
19:32<+glx>PeterT: not important
19:32<PeterT>glx: ok, sorry
19:32<TruePikachu>fjb: ?
19:34<fjb>It mangles your private IP number. I wold not call that correctly working.
19:35<TruePikachu>...I'm not on my Wii, I'm on my Linux PC
19:35<+glx>and all google results are about something not working
19:36<TruePikachu>Should I drive 12 volts backwords into it so we can get a replacement?
19:36<TruePikachu>It is rated for 9 volts
19:37<fjb>Simply buy a better one.
19:37<TruePikachu>Time Warner never listens to the tech problems we have
19:37<Eddi|zuHause>you should START TO LISTEN! and READ THE MANUAL
19:37<TruePikachu>I have no manual
19:37<TruePikachu>fjb, the modem MUST be supplied by them
19:38<Eddi|zuHause>it's a router. it has a configuration. you need to change the settings there...
19:38<TruePikachu>I've tried, to no avail.
19:38<TruePikachu>I'm even using SUPERUSER
19:38<fjb>Why must it be supplied by Time Warner?
19:39<fjb>If you destroy it you wil get the same model again.
19:39<Eddi|zuHause>i'm out...
19:39<Eddi|zuHause>this is not leading anywhere...
19:40*TruePikachu hates this modem, as it has mainly just caused problems
19:40<TruePikachu>It always turns itself off, for one...
19:40<TruePikachu>And the modem has to have a valid ID programmed into it for Time Warner to work with it
19:41<TruePikachu>Also, don't get me started with the WG111V2 wireless adapter I am having trouble using that they supplied as well
19:42<+glx>your ISP is probably one of the "internet is http only" one
19:43<TruePikachu>As in that's what their techs think?
19:44<fjb>Time Warner... what do you expect?
19:44<TruePikachu>Well, we can't change our ISP
19:45<+glx>we have that kind of "internet" for mobile phone here
19:45<+glx>if you want mail it's an option
19:45<+glx>and orange even removed google apps from android phones
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19:45<TruePikachu>Still, why would the modem mangle the IP?
19:45<+glx>(because it's mail via http)
19:46<+glx>and they want to sell pop/imap options
19:46<fjb>It is a broken kind of NAT.
19:47<+glx>or it expects the "server" to ask it to open ports
19:47<TruePikachu>Should I try dropping a line to TW?
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19:50<fjb>Time Warner usually tell you what to think and do and does not ask what you want to do.
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19:52<Eddi|zuHause>it can only be in the router, because that's the only thing having both the internal and external IP
19:53<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: He told you it is not the router. He knows better then we all here.
19:54<Eddi|zuHause>i never imagined saying this again... "AOL user"...
19:56<TruePikachu>...I never said that
19:57<TruePikachu>And I don't use AOL
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19:57*fjb prefers TrueBrains over TruePikachus...
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19:59<Eddi|zuHause>it's totally funny how the people at the forum always know that things are "easy to implement"
19:59<Anderus>i'm locked out of my company, i think i made the pw too long
19:59<Eddi|zuHause>like the totally trivial task of "multi track depots"
20:00<fjb>Every thing is easy to implement. You only have to compare it to the right job. :-)
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20:01<Anderus>i mean, i know the password that i set, it just won't fit in the password box
20:02<+glx>Anderus: how long is it?
20:02<Anderus>but it did when i typed it
20:03<Eddi|zuHause>Anderus: there are two ways to remove passwords, first one is saving the game and restarting the server, second one is using the "autoclean" options (dangerous)
20:03<Anderus>23 chars
20:03<Anderus>dang :(
20:03<Yexo>Anderus: open the consoloe, then type "join <companyid> <password>"
20:03<Yexo>tha tmight work
20:03<Anderus>that worked! thank you!
20:04<fjb>Hier werden sie geholfen.
20:06<+glx>,...,...,...,...,...ShowQueryString(STR_EMPTY, STR_NETWORK_NEED_COMPANY_PASSWORD_CAPTION, 20, 180, this, CS_ALPHANUMERAL, QSF_NONE); <-- indeed 23 is too much for the GUI
20:07<Eddi|zuHause>i always thought the openttd string limits are ridiculously small
20:07<fjb>Especially the group names.
20:08<Eddi|zuHause>like for train and group names
20:08<TruePikachu>I still want to get this working here for the time being
20:10*fjb also wants a lot of things.
20:10<ccfreak2k>Eddi|zuHause, they're just stringing you along.
20:10<Eddi|zuHause>like if i want to name road vehicle groups in the scheme "<City> - <Line> - <Start>-<Via>-<End>" it often won't fit
20:11<TruePikachu>I know that TW won't help one bit
20:11<CIA-2>OpenTTD: yexo * r20012 /trunk/src/ (company_gui.cpp network/network_gui.cpp): -Fix: when joining a company with a password you could only enter 20 characters of the password
20:12<fjb>You only know if you tried.
20:12<TruePikachu>My mom tried when the modem turned off the DHCP server
20:12<TruePikachu>They sent 5 techs over, and none of them could find the problem
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20:13<TruePikachu>I simply assign a static IP address, get into the settings, and re-enable the DHCP
20:13<+glx>I guess we need at least
20:13<+glx>oh Yexo was faster
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20:14<TruePikachu>Oh, and I have a pressing question about the game mechanics
20:14<TruePikachu>What is needed to make cities grow? I don't understand the wiki on the subject
20:14<+glx>depends on climate
20:15<TruePikachu>I am only concerned with Temprate right now
20:15<fjb>Active stations.
20:15<+glx>passengers and mail
20:15<TruePikachu>I mean, the wiki states 5 stations within the city, but does it work if they are all connected as one station, and each of the 5 parts are visited?
20:16<Yexo>have 5 stations within x (15? / 20?) tiles from the city center and make sure a vehicle visits these stations every 50 (or was it 20?) days
20:16<Yexo>there have to be 5 differnt station labels
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20:17<+glx>a small bus/tram network :)
20:19<TruePikachu>If a station covers a bigger part of a city than another station, assuming the stations are not there simutaniously, and they both have the same ratings, do they get the same number of passengers and mail provided that the population is also the same?
20:20<TruePikachu>Or are the supplies dependant only on coverage area?
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20:22<TruePikachu>Can someone answer?
20:23<+glx>only the 2 best stations get stuff
20:23<+glx>(or is it 3 ?)
20:23<TruePikachu>Not a good answer, and it's 2
20:24<fjb>Why does every beginner make the whole town one station?
20:24<planetmaker>just because!
20:25<TruePikachu>Because either A) the wiki isn't specific on these things, or B) that's how Railroad Tycoon does it
20:26<+glx>IIRC coverage is only for delivering
20:28<TruePikachu>fjb, please elaborate
20:28<fjb>Elaborate what?
20:28<TruePikachu>on why you don't make town-sized stations
20:30<fjb>The town does not grow with only one station and so there will be not that many passengers.
20:31<TruePikachu>But if a station is in a town, no matter what the coverage area is, the station can serve the entire town's population?
20:31<planetmaker>s/not grow/not grow fast/
20:31<TruePikachu>And I've disproved you many times
20:31<TruePikachu>^ im my savegames
20:31<planetmaker>... I guess you disprove fjb this time then, too
20:31<TruePikachu>* in
20:32<planetmaker>and make sure to add the wrong info again to the wiki
20:32<TruePikachu>No, I mean with one station, I brought a city from 1,000 to 20,000
20:32<planetmaker>(yes, fjb is right. 5 stations are what is the optimum to get a town growing)
20:32<planetmaker>yes, they grow even without station
20:32<planetmaker>yes, they grow slowly with one
20:33<TruePikachu>Okay, but what exactly is coverage are for then?
20:33<planetmaker>yes, I've grown a town with one million inhabitants
20:33<TruePikachu>How long?
20:33<planetmaker>dunno. 300 game years maybe?
20:34<planetmaker>the coverage area gives you the acceptance of a station. And somewhat also what is delivered
20:35<TruePikachu>But a station in a city with just, say, a bus stop will serve the ENTIRE city
20:35<TruePikachu>and not just the coverage area of houses
20:36*planetmaker uploaded SwedishRails 0.3.0 to bananas
20:37<planetmaker>TruePikachu: you get the cargo from your coverage area
20:37<TruePikachu>If a bus stop is in a city, does it take care of everybody and their mail?
20:39<TruePikachu>Is one bus stop capible of accessing an entire city???
20:40<planetmaker>have you ever placed a bus stop? Have you ever seen the coverage area while doing so?
20:40<planetmaker>go figure
20:41*TruePikachu is getting confused by all the different answers
20:41<fjb>One bus stop makes the whole town grow, but you only get the passengers from the coverage area.
20:41*planetmaker goes to bed. Have a good night folks
20:41<planetmaker>End test swedish rail set ;-)
20:42<+glx>well a house delivers passengers to the 2 best station in its catchement area :)
20:42<planetmaker>s/End/And/ :-)
20:42<+glx>size is 4 by default
20:42<fjb>Night planetmaker.
20:42<TruePikachu>What do you mean by size?
20:44<TruePikachu>glx: what do you mean by size?
20:45<fjb>Size of the catchment area we are talking about at the moment.
20:45<TruePikachu>How does it change?
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20:46<+glx>so the house look for stations (in its own area), then checks if it is (the house) in the station area
20:46<fjb>It is in the settings. It can be the same for all station types or depending on the station type.
20:46<+glx>fjb: no it's 4 or 10 :)
20:46<fjb>glx: Ok, thank you.
20:46<+glx>4 is default, 10 is modified_catchement
20:47<TruePikachu>Wait, so how would you get tons of people to deliver?
20:47<+glx>but in case of modified_catchement it checks the station catchement area too
20:49<TruePikachu>How do you get tons of people to deliver?
20:49<fjb>Make a bus or tram network and deliver the passengers to one big station. Get them there by a train, plane or what else.
20:49<TruePikachu>with transfer?
20:49<+glx>you can also play with town grfs
20:50<TruePikachu>And then, when delivering passengers back to the city, what do you do?
20:50<+glx>you'll get more people than you can transport
20:50<fjb>Just throw them off the train if the train station accepts passengers.
20:51<TruePikachu>And the city will still grow?
20:52<TruePikachu>Okay. One last question: would it be a good idea to use the OpenTTD_Co-op pages as a stragety guide?
20:52<fjb>The passengers can not leave the station, get bored and make a lot of babies.
20:52<TruePikachu>fjb, see 'oil rig'
20:53<TruePikachu>'Passenger production at so and so oil rig increases by 100%'
20:53<+glx>passengers just go where you want them to go :)
20:53<fjb>What else would you do on an oil rig in your spare time?
20:54<TruePikachu>I am definitly e-mailing this to my friend
20:56<TruePikachu>I would try to increase oil production by 100%
20:57<TruePikachu>Would it be a good idea to use the OpenTTD_Co-op pages as a stragety guide?
20:57<fjb>Yes, if you understand them.
20:59<fjb>And don't drill at the deep water.
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21:14<fjb>Two important rules of Seefaring: 1) Don't drill at the deep sea. 2) Don't name your ship "Mary Celeste".
21:25<+glx>and don't disable alarms?
21:26<fjb>May be.
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23:11<Anderus>is there a "close all windows" button?
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23:58<Anderus>i think the server died
---Logclosed Wed Jun 23 00:00:37 2010