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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-06-23

---Logopened Wed Jun 23 00:00:37 2010
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00:05<ccfreak2k>Is there a newgrf or something for one-way roads?
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00:06<ccfreak2k>fjb, what's Seefaring?
00:23<ccfreak2k>Oh, I found the one-way thing.
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00:37<ccfreak2k>OpenMSX is very...interesting.
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02:03<ccfreak2k>How do those long trains fit in the tiny depots?
02:04<SpComb>magic
02:15<Ammler>that is just a entry to downstairs
02:16<planetmaker>moin
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02:52<Terkhen>good morning
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08:36<ccfreak2k>Modern Motion is a weird song.
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09:17<@Belugas>hi
09:18<PeterT>hey Belugas
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09:30<@Belugas>hello PeterT
09:30<PeterT>how are you this morning?
09:31<PeterT>had enough coffee yet to wake up? ;)
09:31-!-Dreamxtreme [~Dreamxtre@92.8.98.253] has quit [Quit: Don't follow me]
09:33<andythenorth>hi hi
09:36-!-Dreamxtreme [~Dreamxtre@92.8.98.253] has joined #openttd
09:36<@Belugas>barely, PeterT, barely. second cup. but meeting provided enough adrenalin to make it the same as two other mugs
09:36<@Belugas>hi andythenorth
09:38<PeterT>good to hear :)
09:38<PeterT>you could also drink tea, not as bad for you :p
09:40<@Belugas>might
09:40<@Belugas>problem
09:40<@Belugas>boss supplies coffee
09:40<@Belugas>not tea
09:40<@Belugas>not going to BUY my dose of boosters for the day :S
09:41<PeterT>lol
09:41<PeterT>demand that he supply tea or you will burn down his office
09:41<PeterT>:p
09:42<@Belugas>i'd rather ask him for photo hardware if ever i had a special demand ^_^
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09:42<@Belugas>plus... hey... being honest, i love coffee
09:43<PeterT>hehe
09:43<PeterT>well, I hope I don't get into it
09:44<@Belugas>that's another subject. it's the same about any kind of boost. the excess is what is dangerous
09:45<PeterT>4 cups is not in excess?
09:45<@Belugas>not from what i heard
09:46<@Belugas>6-7 is getting quite excessive
09:46<PeterT>I guess it depends on the person
09:46<@Belugas>4 is like.. borderline
09:46<@Belugas>or so
09:46<PeterT>ah
09:46<@Belugas>but it might ahev written by a guy who drinks even more.. dunno
09:46<@Belugas>and yes, it might depends of the person indeed
09:46<@peter1138>hm
09:47<@Belugas>like alcohol, in factr
09:47<PeterT>yeah
09:47<PeterT>if it's like alchohol, then it takes getting used to, building a tolerence
09:48<@Belugas>after two beers (american beer not taking in account, of course), i'm getting really high.now. not when my hair were flowing freely on my shoulders...
09:48<@Belugas>see waht i mean?
09:49<PeterT>:-D
09:50<@peter1138>hee, my hair is just on my shoulders
09:51<PeterT>I used to have long hair
09:51<PeterT>then I cut it off
09:51<PeterT>for the summer :p
09:51<@peter1138>me too
09:51<@peter1138>i had 7 years of long hair
09:51<PeterT>O_o wow :-D
09:53<Ammler>7years cut in 7mins?
09:53<PeterT>hehe
09:53<PeterT>alright, let's go USA!!
09:53<PeterT>how good is Algeria?
09:53<Ammler>better :-P
09:54<PeterT>:-(
09:54<PeterT>I just heard that Algeria hasn't scored in any of the games :p
09:54<@Belugas>mmh... what should i do to convince my wife i should grow my hair back?
09:54<@Belugas>ho.. i know...find something to have more hair for a start!
09:55<@peter1138>:s
09:55<@Belugas>peter1138, you do look good, judging form last shot ;)
09:56<PeterT>I only saw your last.fm profile when you posted it in #tycoon
09:56<@peter1138>hmm, that's an ancient photo :)
09:56<@peter1138>hmm, probably 6 years old
09:56<Rubidium>Belugas: call it a budget cut on hair dressing
09:56<@peter1138>seeing as that account was made in 2005 :)
09:57<PeterT>peter1138: aha, post an updated picture then ;-)
09:57<@Belugas>i was talking about the last time i saw you on video ;)
09:57<@Belugas>Rubidium : nice idea :)
09:57<@peter1138>ah yes, the live video stream. that was fun :)
09:58<@peter1138>people look different when they're moving
09:58<@Belugas>quite :)
09:58<@Belugas>they look... normal
09:59<PeterT>2D is normal?
09:59<PeterT>:-D
09:59<@Belugas>that's what i was thinking when looking at the 20k party shots
09:59<@Belugas>PeterT, close one eye and yes, 2D becomes normal!
09:59<@Belugas>hehehe
09:59<PeterT>:D
09:59<PeterT>wait...there are 20k party shots?
09:59<PeterT>I only saw the cake
10:00<@Belugas>yeah some. the best ones are when they all got naked
10:00<@Belugas>funny as hell
10:01<PeterT>oh gawd
10:01<@Belugas>hem... it was a joke...
10:02<PeterT>I know that :p
10:02<@peter1138>okay
10:02<@peter1138>the office is quite empty now
10:02<@peter1138>the boardroom is quite full
10:02<@peter1138>oddly enough, there's 50" telly in there
10:02<@peter1138>i seem to be the only one not interested in whatever is showing on it
10:03<PeterT>probably England versus Slovenia
10:03<@Belugas>maybe you were not invited?
10:04<@Belugas>it's time to practice your singing, peter1138 ;)
10:04<@peter1138>i do a good falsetto for singing beegees...
10:04<@peter1138>i think i'll just put some metal on
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>maybe they're watching USA-Algeria :p
10:06<PeterT>now, why would they watch that crap?
10:06<@peter1138>what, football?
10:06<@peter1138>cos they're muppets
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10:08<@Belugas>metal... mmhh... that's an idea...
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10:08<@Belugas>let see...
10:08<@Belugas>oh.. iron maiden... Allowed be Thy name... That I can sing :D
10:09<@Belugas>steve vai... nor sing nor play
10:14<@Belugas>haaa... Queensrÿche!
10:14<@Belugas>"your call is important"
10:14<@Belugas>BULLSHIT!
10:16<@peter1138>:)
10:23<@peter1138>changed my last.fm icon
10:25<PeterT>haha great :-D
10:27<@peter1138>ahhh, NIN :D
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10:35<@peter1138>set the controls
10:35<@peter1138>for the heart of the sun
10:35<@peter1138>my metal filter seems broken
10:38<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r20013 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#3890]: silence some warnings / take the advice of the warnings into account
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10:46<@Belugas>lol@peter1138 :D
10:56<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r20014 /trunk/src/vehicle_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3881]: don't close the sort dropdown in the (original) vehicle list when there are no vehicles. That code is meant for the "actions" dropdown
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11:52<andythenorth>hmm
11:52<andythenorth>football
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13:26<frosch123>planetmaker: are there already some photos available somewhere?
13:27<Zuu>As far as I can see the filter sign list patch is now complete feature wise and hopefully not too far from being of acceptable quality. :-)
13:27<Zuu>frosch123: Yes there are
13:29<@Belugas>and you look so good on those, frosch123 hahahaha!!
13:29<frosch123>yeah, hillarious :)
13:30<frosch123>i wonder about the joke...
13:30<@Belugas>none joke intended ;)
13:30<planetmaker>frosch123: yes, there are. And I forgot to give you the link as you already went to bed when I gave them around ;-)
13:30<@Belugas>i was just pleased seeing what you were looking like. I was not disappointed
13:30<frosch123>i mean the joke which apparently was heard while the photo was taken
13:30<frosch123>planetmaker: already got it :)
13:30<planetmaker>oki :-)
13:31<@Belugas>ho... that... must have been a lot going on,from what i heard
13:31<Zuu>Yep
13:34<Zuu>planetmaker: A zip/tar/tgz or something would be nice to allow easier downloading.
13:34<planetmaker>wget ;-)
13:35<planetmaker>I see the point, though
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13:45<CIA-9>OpenTTD: translators * r20015 /trunk/src/lang/unfinished/ (chuvash.txt irish.txt tamil.txt):
13:45<CIA-9>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-9>OpenTTD: chuvash - 17 changes by mefisteron
13:45<CIA-9>OpenTTD: irish - 40 changes by tem
13:45<CIA-9>OpenTTD: tamil - 6 changes by Rubidium
13:45<frosch123>rb speaks tamil :)
13:46<Rubidium>nah, just noticed I made some mistakes with copying "default" stuff from english
13:47<CIA-9>OpenTTD: rubidium * r20016 /trunk/ (4 files in 3 dirs): -Change: move Irish out of unfinished
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14:03<kamil>hi
14:03<Zuu>Hello
14:04<kamil>i search wiki... and i cant find how to create commands - for example: !help -> echo "Help: ... "
14:05<Zuu>autopilot, ap etc.
14:05<Zuu>xschunter I believe as well
14:06<kamil>ap <- i get always errors... autopilot <- can't run in screen... xschunter... hmm try this:)
14:07<Ammler>ap is autopilot
14:07<Ammler>you might try ap+
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14:08<kamil>Ammler: yes i try ap+ and i can't this run - i get error always...
14:09<kamil>xschunter <- can't find in google... you have link to home page this project?
14:09<@Belugas>wow... we just had an heartquake!
14:09<@Belugas>that feels strange!
14:09<kamil>Belugas: why? this channel i silent mode?:P
14:10<@Belugas>no, in (burk) real life!
14:10<Ammler>it might not be released yet
14:10<@Belugas>here, at work!
14:10<frosch123>looks like there is "quak" in earthquakle
14:10<SpComb>heartquake?
14:10<@Belugas>ho...
14:10<@Belugas>as in GROUND SHAKING
14:10<@Belugas>me and my english :S
14:11<SpComb>translates to earthquake, despite what your silly local language says
14:11<frosch123>Belugas: you now have to try for 20 minutes to call your wife and ask whether everything is fine
14:11<frosch123>what is an earthquake without collapsing telephone service
14:11<kamil>Zuu: i can't find xschunter - you have link to home page project?
14:12<Ammler>[20:09] <Ammler> it might not be released yet
14:12<PeterT>No, it's not available for Public use yet
14:12<@Belugas>mmh... /me tries that
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14:12<PeterT>basically, what Ammler said
14:12<planetmaker>I'm pretty sure it's also spellt xShunter, kamil
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14:12<planetmaker>propper spelling helps searches usually a lot
14:12<kamil>ouuu...
14:12<planetmaker>communication, too
14:12<PeterT>planetmaker: yeah, it's what Zuu said ;-)
14:12<PeterT><Zuu> xschunter I believe as well
14:13<Ammler>-c
14:13<Eddi|zuHause><kamil> xschunter <- can't find in google... you have link to home page this project? <- it's misspelled, should probably be xshunter
14:13<kamil>ok, how to disable aircraft/plane in game?
14:14<frosch123>set maximum number of planes to 0 per company
14:14<planetmaker>set their max_XXX to 0
14:14<kamil>i set, but game renew this vars to default = 200
14:14<Zuu>As I said I was not 100% about the name being spelled correctly.
14:19<@Belugas>well look at that... could call my wife right there, without trouble ;P
14:19<@Belugas>she felt it too, but she tough it was the construction guys on the street!
14:22<frosch123>:)
14:22<PeterT>anyway
14:22<kamil>ok, any try run autopilot in screen?
14:22<PeterT>xShunter or xschunter, it's not available
14:22<PeterT>kamil: yep
14:23<PeterT>if you are just testing it, try without screen
14:23<Ammler>kamil: only ap+ is useable
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14:28<kamil>Ammler: i run ap+ and get this: http://pld.pastebin.com/knChaDQs
14:28<Yexo><kamil> i set, but game renew this vars to default = 200 <- if you want to change it in a savegame load the savegame and then change it
14:28<Ammler>kamil: version?
14:28<kamil>Ammler: openttd? 1.0.1
14:28<Ammler>no, ap+
14:29<Ammler>svnversion
14:29<Ammler>looks like expect is missing
14:30<Ammler>looks like you are someone who doesn't read readme
14:30<kamil>768
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14:31<Ammler>768 is fine
14:31<Ammler>kamil: also check if you have tclx installed
14:31<Ammler>and tcllib
14:32<kamil>tclx == tcl* ?
14:33<Ammler>not sure about tclx though
14:33<Ammler>but tcllib is
14:33<kamil>tcllib-1.12-2.noarch: equal version installed, skipped
14:33<Ammler>tcl != tclx
14:35<kamil>don't have... w8 i install:>
14:35<Ammler>@topic -1
14:35<@DorpsGek>Ammler: topic [<channel>]
14:35<Yexo>@topic get -1
14:35<@DorpsGek>Yexo: English only
14:35<Ammler>thanks Yexo :-)
14:37<kamil>Ammler: well i'm installed tclx, but: http://pld.pastebin.com/eL6vQd0j
14:37<kamil>can't run ap+
14:39<Ammler>[20:29] <Ammler> looks like expect is missing
14:39<Ammler>which "guide" did you read for installing?
14:41<kamil>Ammler: guide? http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Autopilot/ap%2B <- i can't find guide
14:41<PeterT>autopilot is a Tcl script which uses Tcl's Expect package to interface with OpenTTD's dedicated server console to provide network games with additional features not normally available with the game alone. This is the operator's manual for version 2.0 of autopilot.
14:42<PeterT>errr, sorry for formatting :X
14:42<PeterT>that's copied from http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Autopilot
14:42<Ammler>kamil: yes, then you have all you need :-)
14:43<kamil>PeterT: yes i read this web page... but can't get manual... i configure openttd.cfg...
14:47-!-attish [~lenoir@catv-89-134-183-57.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #openttd
14:49<attish>hello! openttd scans my home directory for tars, but my home contains symlinks to several really huge directories, and the scanning takes forever. Is there a way to turn it off or restrict it to ~/.openttd?
14:51<Rubidium>it "only" checks ~/.openttd and the installation/working directory
14:52<Rubidium>so if ~/ is your working directory you should change it
14:52<attish>it works, thanks!
14:53<attish>still, this may cause a casual user to think the program has locked up
14:53<attish>I found out about the scanning via ltrace
14:54<attish>do you think it's worth filing a bug report?
14:55<Alberth>the main developer is aware of it, so what good would the report do?
14:55<Rubidium>doubtful; it has been the way for years and changing it now would more likely break stuff
14:55<Rubidium>also you seem to be the first person having ~/ as working directory as I can't remember anyone having this issue
14:56<Rubidium>maybe that's because the casual user starts it from the desktop which has a different working directory?
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>hm... at this rate, we'll really go home with a 0:2 :p
14:56<attish>I guess I'm the first one with ~ as wd and ~ being >100 GB :)
14:57<attish>casual users are at danger here
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>the problem starts if you have a ~/data dir
14:58<attish>indeed
14:58<attish>I have one, and it's the big one
14:58<attish>and renaming it to data_ cures it
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14:59<attish>sounds like a bug to me
15:00<Rubidium>one man's bug in another man's feature :(
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15:01<Rubidium>because the change the working directory trick is used to make an USB/portable install
15:01<@peter1138>heh
15:03<attish>the only right solution I can think of is to pop up a "please wait" window if the scanning takes more than 5 seconds
15:03<Alberth>'data' is too generic anyway
15:04<Alberth>or don't go deeper than say 10 levels
15:04-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host226-233-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd
15:04<Wolf01>hi
15:04<Alberth>hi Wolf01
15:04<attish>in my case it wouldn't solve it, but otherwise seems worthy
15:05<Rubidium>is that directory by any chance filled with tar files?
15:05<@peter1138>could be fun when we get gz, bz2 and good ol' zip support ;)
15:05<attish>only pure .tar files, or .tar.gz and .tar.bz2 are checked too?
15:06<@peter1138>only pure
15:06<attish>no, I have no pure tar files
15:06<attish>I'm almost certain
15:06<attish>if only these are checked, then it's only traversing the directory tree that takes time
15:06<Alberth>find ~/data -name "*.tar" -print
15:06<attish>but it shouldn't take this much
15:07<attish>0 results
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15:08<attish>it's strange
15:08<attish>the find command returns almost immediately
15:09<attish>this suggests that the directory tree is cached
15:09<attish>but the scanning still takes forever to finish
15:09<Rubidium>yep
15:10<Rubidium>the second start of openttd should be considerably faster
15:11<attish>that's my point: it should be, but it doesn't seem to be so
15:11<attish>besides, CPU usage is at 100%; scanning the directory tree would mean low CPU utilization, much more time spent waiting for the FS
15:13<attish>I'll look at the source
15:14<Rubidium>then there might be a loop in the symlinks?
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15:14<attish>would ls -R fall into an infinite loop in that case?
15:16<attish>because it traverses my ~/data without problems
15:16<Rubidium>don't know
15:17<Rubidium>I only know that OpenTTD doesn't make much of an effort to prevent such traps
15:17<Rubidium>due to "too much work for too little benefit"; there is no generic API to prevent such traps
15:18<attish>but these hurt reputation -- casual user launches, waits, then says OK, it hangs without a word, so it's rubbish, and uninstalls
15:19<Rubidium>might be, but making OpenTTD security vulnerable or destroying the existing user base is probably way worse
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15:22<attish>I don't think there's a conflict here -- keep a counter of scanned files; once counter goes past say, 10000, display a window to assure the user that the program is still alive, then destroy this window once the scanning's done
15:22<attish>this doesn't sound like a vulnerability
15:22<attish>but I'm no security expert
15:22<Rubidium>okay, that is not necessarily a security issue
15:23<Rubidium>problem is... how to show the window (on especially X)
15:23<attish>you have a point there :)
15:23<Rubidium>assume the graphics are not found yet and as such SDL + openttd sprites doesn't work
15:24<attish>check if we have X, if yes, display a very simple message box, else print a line on the console
15:24<Rubidium>attish: we can't quite check for X
15:24<Rubidium>unless we add X as a hard dependency
15:24<attish>a simple test would be checking if DISPLAY is set
15:25<Rubidium>even then, you still don't have the characters to draw something on the screen
15:27<attish>frankly, I have no idea, I don't really know X
15:28<attish>but I think we could use a solution that works for the "average linux desktop"
15:28<attish>since everyone who uses a more limited environment will be likely to know their way around this problem
15:29<Rubidium>works and doesn't break something for the rest... which is kinda a big problem
15:29<Alberth>like assuming there is no 'data' directory in the cwd? :p
15:29<Alberth>perhaps a rename to 'openttd-data' ?
15:30<Rubidium>Alberth: are you going to fix the directories of everyone?
15:30<Rubidium>as we can't "simply" rename data to openttd-data on startup
15:31<Rubidium>so you'd be effectively breaking *all* portable installation
15:31<Alberth>so a change would need a few years at least
15:31<frosch123>just replace "cwd" with "cwd, if not ~" :p
15:31<Rubidium>attish: a major problem of OpenTTD is showing error messages early on; it has existed forever and there's hardly anything that can be done about it
15:32<Rubidium>frosch123: what about /data or O:\data ?
15:33<frosch123>:)
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15:43<Eddi|zuHause>but we do need some kind of splash screen while scanning for grfs/tars...
15:46<Alberth>No splash screen, please. Those are *so* annoying.
15:46*Rubidium assigns Eddi to do that
15:46<fjb>Hm, yes splash screens are annoying.
15:47<attish>add an option to disable splash screen, then :)
15:47<Alberth>better, don't add one
15:47<Ammler>well, waiting and not seeing what happens is also bad
15:47<Ammler>if you click openttd icon and you need to wait 10 secs...
15:48<Ammler>you quite much like to click twice or more :-)
15:48<Alberth>more openttds!
15:48<Alberth>more fun!
15:48<frosch123>don't mix it with reading grf info :) that needs caching
15:49<Rubidium>and reading grf info might be done once the base graphics are found and loaded
15:49<Ammler>it doesn't need a big splash screen, but a starting indicator would be nice
15:50<Ammler>maybe a little stream lok choochoos over the screen?
15:51<fjb>Animated mouse pointer. :-)
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15:55<Eddi|zuHause>tt original had an "intro"
15:55<Rubidium>question then is how to load the splash screen, or rather: what to do when there is no libpng
15:55<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: 99% certain those graphics come from one of the grfs
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, likely
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>maybe hardcode an image into the executable?
15:59<frosch123>a progressbar-like throbber would not need graphics
16:01<+glx>and how do you know how many files to check ?
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16:01<Ammler>well, those progressbars just start again
16:01<Rubidium>glx: like windows: "Please wait while preparing to ..."
16:01<frosch123>not that progressing type of progressbar :) the one which cycles, like on win 95/xp start
16:01<+glx>hmm or a progress not progressive
16:02<+glx>I should be able to do that on windows (file access are slow ;) )
16:03<mikegrb>
16:03<Alberth>why not add the path of last found stuff to the config, so you can find it fast?
16:03<Alberth>ie the base graphics
16:04<Rubidium>then you still have the problem the first time, which is (basically) what attish complained about (a bit)
16:05<Rubidium>and if it comes from a tar then you'd need to make a list of "preload" tars as well
16:05<Ammler>what is "the first time"?
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: a "virgin" start without config
16:06<frosch123>just after installing, when you cannot rely on any cached values
16:06<Ammler>where does it cache to?
16:06<Alberth>also run as part of the install?
16:07<Ammler>and how do you detect updates?
16:07<Alberth>that leaves out the source installs, but that is a small group
16:07<Alberth>Ammler: afterwards
16:07<frosch123>[22:06] <Ammler> where does it cache to? <- it does not :) but it is usally suggested when it comes to loading times :)
16:07<+glx>better find a way to show it is doing something :)
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16:07<Ammler>ah, that is a upcomming feature :-)
16:08<frosch123>yup, upcoming for 5 years or so :p
16:08<Ammler>but I feel somehow a second start is faster already
16:08<+glx>not after a reboot Ammler :)
16:08<Rubidium>Ammler: that's caused by your OS
16:09<Rubidium>caching the file system's directory layout/files
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: the second start in a short timeframe means many files are still in cache
16:10<Ammler>I see...
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16:45<TruePikachu>I got a funny response from TW
16:45<TruePikachu>They said that the modem got infected with a virus
16:46<TruePikachu>They also said that they reset the modem entirely to default settings...
16:46<TruePikachu>...however, if that was the case, this wireless connection would have been revoked because of an invalid WEP
16:47<TruePikachu>I was also thinking, about how 192.168,0.250 (but with dot) gets converted to 67.49.43.176
16:48-!-Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF8682.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
16:48<TruePikachu>I can only come up with one logical reason
16:48<TruePikachu>IRC protocals used by different clients may differ
16:49<TruePikachu>Just like with the CRLF debate
16:49<+glx>no IRC is IRC
16:49-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f74d7.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:49<Fast2>Without knowledge of the context: The IRC-protocol is defined in an RFC, so all clients schon use the same.
16:49<TruePikachu>IRSSI is a simple client, so it probably just sends everything directly as plaintext through the Internet without additional processing
16:50-!-SirSquidness [~sirsquidn@au.dongues.com] has joined #openttd
16:50<Fast2>*schon|should
16:50<+glx>TruePikachu: like all IRC clients
16:50<TruePikachu>Therefore, when the modem picks up the 192.168, it changes it to it's own IP address, making the target think the modem itself sent it
16:51<TruePikachu>However, with some clients, they might do something like 192.168<NULL>.0.250
16:51<TruePikachu>This way, it does not get changed
16:51<+glx>no, the router can change packets header, but not the content
16:52<TruePikachu>This is the CG814WG, the 'most problematic modem ever'
16:53<TruePikachu>I am pretty sure that when I was using PIRCH98 on WinXP, I typed in 192.168.0.10 all the time
16:53<TruePikachu>And it was never changed
16:54<TruePikachu>Just coming up with theorys...
16:54<TruePikachu>Anyway, I need a good mainline design that works nicely.
16:55<TruePikachu>I usually used LPPR or LBBR (P=Prioritised bidirectional, B=Bidirectional)
16:55<TruePikachu>Today, I tried L_L___R_R
16:56<TruePikachu>Any thoughts?
16:57-!-DrRetro [~ontario@174-137-229-225.ip.tor.radiant.net] has quit []
16:58*TruePikachu thinks he should try to get his DS set up as an IRC client, and his computer set up as a server in order to try to track the problem
16:59-!-SirSquidness [~sirsquidn@au.dongues.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:59<TruePikachu>Oh well, I am experimenting with mainlines right now, and I need ideas
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17:03<TruePikachu>ping
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17:05<andythenorth>pong
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>|.
17:06<SmatZ>| '|
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>
17:06<Zuu>.
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>
17:07<@Belugas>bye bye all
17:07<TruePikachu>| *----
17:07*andythenorth GAME OVER
17:07<Zuu>bye Belugas
17:07<andythenorth>we drove him away :(
17:07<Ammler>Bylugas
17:07<andythenorth>or maybe his car drove him away :)
17:07<TruePikachu>lol
17:07<@Belugas>will be on holiday tomorrow, shooting some beasts in a zoo :D
17:07*andythenorth is still working at 22.07
17:07<andythenorth>on a day off
17:07<@Belugas>ciao and have fun!
17:07<TruePikachu>Camera?
17:07<andythenorth>work started at 9.30
17:07<@Belugas>of course....
17:08<andythenorth>on my day off
17:08<@Belugas>gone
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>'luga sog i
17:08<andythenorth>bye
17:08<TruePikachu>Well, anyway, I need mainline ideas
17:08<Ammler>andythenorth: which grf are you working on?
17:08<Ammler>didn't see any commits :-)
17:09<andythenorth>Ammler: I am working on the earningalivingdoingwork.grf
17:09<Zuu>TruePikachu: If you have trains of different speeds you could give them separate tracks.
17:09<Ammler>:-)
17:09<TruePikachu>How would I set that up easily?
17:09<Zuu>Eg RL__RL
17:09<andythenorth>Ammler: have you added closure parameters to FIRS yet?
17:09<andythenorth>in my dream, someone else did it :P
17:09<andythenorth>i.e. not me
17:09<andythenorth>so perhaps you?
17:09<Zuu>Waypoints + pathfinder penalties.
17:10<andythenorth>or one of 6 billion other people
17:10<TruePikachu>Zuu, would L_L___R_R work, inner is faster?
17:10<andythenorth>but ideally not me :P
17:10<Ammler>no dev, no access
17:10<TruePikachu>Wait, inner slower
17:10<TruePikachu>I have 3 tile space in there to do a turnaround and tunnel
17:10<Zuu>TruePikachu: Sure, if you like to do so, but the idea is that if you make them separate, then you can have simplier junctions.
17:11<andythenorth>Ammler: you have root on redmine no?
17:11<TruePikachu>Oh, so I'll design a L_L___R_R -> LR_LR adapter
17:11<Zuu>Eg RL___RL where you have one pair for fast PAX and one for cargo.
17:11<Zuu>If you eg. play with UKRS.
17:12<Ammler>andythenorth: I would only commit .devzone stuff to it...
17:12<TruePikachu>UKRS = ? (I know it's a GRF)
17:12<Zuu>UK rail set I would believe
17:12<Zuu>You'll find it on bananas.
17:12<TruePikachu>Would NuRails work instead?
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>R stands for Renewal
17:12<TruePikachu>Zuu, no, I'll find it in my DATA folder
17:12<Ammler>andythenorth: I didn't code one Action2 sprite yet
17:13<Zuu>UKRS is a train set.
17:13<TruePikachu>Oh, so the default trains could operate then?
17:13<Zuu>where PAX trains are usually quite abit faster than the cargo trains.
17:13<TruePikachu>I know, I've don Train Simulator on Marias Pass
17:14<Zuu>With the default trains there is no such difference in speed between pax and cargo trains.
17:14<TruePikachu>*done
17:14<TruePikachu>Freight 35 Pass 60
17:14<TruePikachu>Zuu, I make a difference between them...
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17:15<TruePikachu>Would it be a good idea to try a train GRF?
17:15<Zuu>The thing is that a RR__LL-ish network would require quite a lot more complicated and space requiring junctions/intersections than a simple RL network.
17:15<TruePikachu>I can't flood my systm: 797MHz PIII, 192MB RAM, 4GB Swap
17:15<Zuu>Dual RL is probably more space effective than a load balanced RR__LL.
17:15<TruePikachu>Zuu, I know I use different loco speeds
17:16<TruePikachu>What about a LPR (Prioritised track in middle)? Oh, and I use right-hand traffic, your RL is left-hand
17:17<Zuu>Never really learned what L and R means but if it is right-hand or left-hand doesn't really matter.
17:18<TruePikachu>The center track can be used for passing
17:18<TruePikachu>(If two locos on the PAX have different speeds I.E. AutoReplace hasn't reached them yet
17:18<TruePikachu>)
17:19<Zuu>The problem with passing in OpenTTD is that it seldome works well. In your case you'll probably have the behaviour that trains go back to early to their side so that the train that they just overtook will have to make a full stop.
17:19<TruePikachu>That is if you do it "that way"
17:20<TruePikachu>(one moment...
17:20<TruePikachu>Darn, can't do multiline...
17:20<Zuu>You can do in notepad/emacs/vim etc.
17:21<TruePikachu>I would have 3 tracks. The center one has standard path signals facing both ways, and the outer have one-way path signals
17:21*TruePikachu will start VIM
17:21<Wolf01>'night
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17:22<Zuu>In that case you will have a penalty of running in the centeral lane.
17:22<Zuu>Which will make trains switch back as soon as they can and cut the way of for the trains in the outer lane.
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17:24<TruePikachu><Diagram>
17:24<TruePikachu><Didn't copy :P>
17:25<TruePikachu>VIM keeps going into visual mode :P
17:25<Zuu>Yep, and then right click and select copy
17:25<Zuu>If you're on windows + gvim
17:26<TruePikachu>I'm on Linux and actual VIM running in a Konsole window :P
17:26<TruePikachu>I saved and LESS'd the output:
17:26<TruePikachu>_____________________<________________________ /Westbound
17:26<TruePikachu>__________________}XX{________________________ /Prioritised passing track
17:26<TruePikachu>__________________>XX_________________________ /Eastbound
17:26<TruePikachu>> One-way path
17:26<TruePikachu>} Two-way path
17:27<Zuu>A problem in OpenTTD is also that the demand fluctates alot. With assymetric demand in an IRL situation it is easier to use a revesible lane as you can keep the same direction the entire morning rush hour and then reverse it before the afternoon rush hour. That said, there is still the problem of making sure drivers are aware of the direction and not using the lane when it is closed before the reversal of it.
17:28<TruePikachu>Oh, in case you're wondering, the 'prioritised passing track' has a 2 way block signal in the middle of itself
17:28<Zuu>Is the passing track long enough that a train will always be able to overtake and join the outer lane at the next junction without disturbing the overtook train?
17:28*TruePikachu wishes YAPF/YAPP looks ahead further
17:29<TruePikachu>Zuu, ?
17:29<Zuu>How often do you have intersections between the outer tracks and the middle track?
17:29<TruePikachu>Not really, but I could pull the path signals back further on the outer...
17:29<Zuu>You would need 20+ tiles or so unelss you have a large speed difference (and low speeds)
17:29<TruePikachu>I usually put these assemblies every 12 tiles
17:30<TruePikachu>It used to be 10, but I spaced
17:30<TruePikachu>It might be easiest to use a LLRR___LLRR
17:31<Zuu>The thing is that the overtaken train need to be able to make a full overtake including joining the outer lane again before the overtook train reaches the place where the overtakning train joins. Otherwise the overtook train will come to full stop.
17:31<TruePikachu>L_L_R_R_____L_L_R_R ?
17:31<TruePikachu>Extra space for prioritising assembelies
17:32<TruePikachu>Wait, I might as well then just L_L_L_____R_R_R
17:32<TruePikachu>brb, have to sharpen a pencil
17:32<Zuu>That would require a tremendiously a lot of space for your intersections if you want to allow trains going from any track to any direction.
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17:33<Zuu>Going for separate LRs in a more mesh structure than having a large ML will probably use less space.
17:34<Zuu>And be far easier to build.
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17:34<TruePikachu>My style is one station, and I send everything there, and spread out the output
17:38<TruePikachu>Zuu, I'll try something like that
17:40<Zuu>If overtaking would work good, then something like LL__RR with overtaking possibilities would be good. However since overtaking don't work good, there is not much point of choosing LL__RR unless you want it for the complicated look.
17:41<TruePikachu>Well, I could prioritise the mainline in a rejoining junction
17:41<TruePikachu>And weight off the passing track in any case
17:42<TruePikachu>But should I use 2 or 3 spaces in the middle of the tracks?
17:42<TruePikachu>You keep putting 2, but what is a good number for it?
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17:58<planetmaker>TruePikachu: the space between tracks is utterly irrelevant
17:58<planetmaker>It only matters somewhat when you add junctions
17:58<planetmaker>and there you place the tracks anyway however they need to go to make the junction work
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---Logclosed Thu Jun 24 00:00:38 2010