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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-06-28

---Logopened Mon Jun 28 00:00:46 2010
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04:24<planetmaker>peter1138: even the two pseudo-random bits with rail types are worth gold :-)
04:26<@peter1138>arrrrr too hot
04:26<@peter1138>planetmaker, well, i did add them for a reason ;)
04:26<planetmaker>sure :-)
04:26<planetmaker>But I haven't seen them used and just gave it a shot... awesome
04:26<planetmaker>like having a variety of fences around
04:27<planetmaker>or allowing to smooth-out the introduction year for modern level crossings or tunnel portals
04:27<@peter1138>i hadn't ever used them either, heh
04:28<planetmaker>as such it can even be argued to be 'realistic' (for those who like these things): old constructions are updated over time...
04:30<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/pics/deadpixels2.png
04:30<@peter1138>getting worse...
04:32<@Rubidium>videocard messing up?
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04:33<planetmaker>eh... screenshot of dead pixels? ;-)
04:39<@peter1138>yeah
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05:34<VVG>hello
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07:46<Ammler>somone on our stable server needs 1% of his cpu while the server needs 90% :-(
07:47<@peter1138>heh
07:47<@peter1138>overclocked core i7?
07:47<Ammler>there are still huge differences on new cpus :-)
07:47<Ammler>peter1138: yes
07:47<@peter1138>welcome stable?
07:47<Ammler>i7 930, OC to 4ghz <--> Intel(R) Xeon(TM) CPU 3.20GHz
07:48<@peter1138>i dunno which servers you have :)
07:48<@peter1138>hmm
07:48<@peter1138>p4 xeon?
07:48<Ammler>yes, but virtual
07:48<@peter1138>as opposed to core2 based xeon
07:48<Ammler>still also my client uses 60%
07:48<@peter1138>and my server's a measily 2 * 2.4GHz P4 Xeon
07:49<@peter1138>lots of ships on that map
07:49<Ammler>ntel(R) Core(TM)2 CPU T5600 @ 1.83GHz
07:49<Ammler>yes, if he pauses the ships, the server cpu dropps to 70% :-)
07:49<@peter1138>cpu 48%... but that'll be ~100% of one core
07:49<@peter1138>2 * 2.8GHz Athlon 64
07:50<@peter1138>2096... new game!
07:50<@peter1138>at least if the server is overloaded, then i went get kicked off for being too slow :)
07:50<Sacro>UKRS?
07:50<@peter1138>*won't
07:51<@peter1138>NARS 2
07:51<Ammler>http://www.openttdcoop.org/servers/stable
07:51<@peter1138>hmm, landscaping!
07:51<Ammler>well, at least he needed to click once per tile :-)
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07:52<ccfreak2k>If the CPU is overclocked, is it really right to put it in the "stable" list?
07:53<planetmaker>the server certainly isn't overclocked
07:53<Ammler>ccfreak2k: you mean we shall ban clients which join with oced cpus?
07:54<ccfreak2k>Also interesting screengrab of utter devistation.
07:54-!-phalax [~phalax@c213-100-73-226.swipnet.se] has joined #openttd
07:54<ccfreak2k>It's like Washington.
07:54<@peter1138>ccfreak2k, it's all flat land now
07:54<@peter1138>with a horrible 2x2 road grid over it
07:54<@peter1138>bloody landscaping abusers ;(
07:54<Ammler>well, such things happen on a late game
07:54<ccfreak2k>Oh so it's like California.
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07:55<Ammler>people get bored...
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08:15*MeCooL hi
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08:43<@Belugas>helloo
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09:09<PeterT>morning Belugas
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09:15<@Belugas>morning to you too, PeterT :_
09:15<@Belugas>hum...
09:15<@Belugas>:)
09:15<@Belugas>there
09:15<PeterT>:-D
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09:51<CIA-9>OpenTTD: rubidium * r20028 /trunk/src/os/windows/ottdres.rc.in: -Fix: trunk Windows binaries still had a 1.0.0.xxxxx version number
09:52<CIA-9>OpenTTD: rubidium * r20029 /trunk/projects/determineversion.vbs: -Fix: the 64 bits TortoiseSVN wasn't always properly detected
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12:10<@Belugas>2-1. bye slovakia. was it a good match?
12:11<@Rubidium>given that result: no!
12:18<Illegal_Alien>For me: Yes!
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12:21<@Belugas>ha...
12:21<@Belugas>so the experts disagree :)
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13:16<Wolf01>hey
13:16<@Rubidium>hi (and a pre-emptive goodbye)
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13:18<SmatZ>Rubidium: you are not happy The Netherlands won?
13:19<Wolf01>:O my father discovered the peltier.... I told him that it is being used for ages on pc heatsinks...
13:19<SmatZ>discovered?
13:19<Wolf01>yes, discovered, he discovers, don't find
13:19<SmatZ>:)
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13:20<SmatZ>I can't say I understand how that can work
13:20<Wolf01>as soon I come home, he started with "peltier" "solar panel" etc...
13:20<SmatZ>but I never tried to understand it...
13:20<@Rubidium>SmatZ: why would I? Now the NL plays during rush hour which means earlier rush hour which means I'm going to be stuck in rush hour
13:21<Wolf01>I told him the peltier is like a dynamo: it is the same of an electrical motor, but it does it's best at transforming power into heat and not vice-versa
13:22<Wolf01>25W to keep a temperature of 12°C... maybe he wandered to use a coffee cup to run a laptop...
13:23<SmatZ>:)
13:27<@peter1138>peltiers were mentioned a lot 10-15 years ago
13:27<@peter1138>less so now
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13:32<@peter1138>probably because modern cpus run too hot for them
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13:44<valhallasw>afaik peltiers use up something like 1.5 times the power they transfer
13:44<valhallasw>and with a processor that already uses 130W...
13:47<@peter1138>yeah
13:49<Wolf01>the problem is: 1) peltier sinks are inefficient with low power systems because you don't have enough power to have the right air convection, and with high power systems they heat (and eat watts) already too much
13:49<valhallasw>peltiers are only really useful as temperature stabilizers
13:49<planetmaker>peltier elements are no heat sinks. Just heat transfer devices
13:49<planetmaker>in all cases
13:49<valhallasw>aye
13:49<Wolf01>yes, I know it's only for abbreviation
13:49<valhallasw>quite useful for keeping a CCD at -40 celcius, though :-)
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13:50<planetmaker>very much indeed :-)
13:50<andythenorth>evening
13:50<planetmaker>actually also for providing a near-arbitrary temperature profile on a surface
13:50<planetmaker>hi andythenorth
13:50<valhallasw>yep
13:50<planetmaker>we have some with 80K and 2 Hz :-D
13:51<planetmaker>80K peak-to-peak
13:51<valhallasw>you're using a peltier to cool something down to 80K?!
13:51<valhallasw>ah
13:51<planetmaker>variation :-)
13:51<planetmaker>around ~room temperate
13:51<valhallasw>ah, rihgt
13:52<valhallasw>although I cannot think of many materials that are able to actually transport that 2Hz temperature change :p
13:54<planetmaker>internally water-cooled
13:55<planetmaker>and they're hand-selected elements from the assembly-line ;-)
13:56<planetmaker>or maybe even their research lab, I'd bet
13:56<valhallasw>heh
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14:14<CIA-9>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r20030 /trunk/src/network/core/os_abstraction.h: -Fix: MSVC 2010 defines more POSIX error constants that we define as well.
14:14<CIA-9>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r20031 /trunk/ (.gitignore .hgignore): -Fix: git and hg didn't ignore the generated windows RC file.
14:24<Terkhen>hello
14:25<@Rubidium>evening Terkhen
14:26<Terkhen>someone wants to do an exam about concurrent programming for me?
14:27<@Rubidium>it's a long time ago I did that
14:28<@Rubidium>so the question is, how hard is it... does my current knowledge still suffice?
14:28<@Belugas>my only knowledge of concurrent programming is having another colleague working on the same stuff as me
14:32<Terkhen>concurrent code correctness, petri networks, stuff like that
14:32<Terkhen>I've been avoiding this subject for years :)
14:33<@Rubidium>smells proofish... in that case: not that good on the subject
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14:38<Terkhen>I'll have to learn it then :P
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15:07<CIA-9>OpenTTD: glx * r20032 /trunk/projects/ (18 files): -Add: MSVC 2010 project files
15:07<PeterT>MSVC 2010 needs different project files?
15:08<__ln__>of course
15:08<valhallasw>not many changes though
15:08<+glx>totally different format
15:08<valhallasw>or rather, the projects I converted only had a 5 changed to 6
15:08<valhallasw>or something like that
15:09<+glx>it uses MSBUILD format now
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15:13<PeterT>glx: what format did it use before?
15:13<PeterT>and why must Microsoft change *everything*? D:
15:13<+glx>new format is better
15:13<valhallasw>PeterT: it doesn't. vs2k10 can use a format very similar to 2k8
15:14<valhallasw>they don't*
15:14<valhallasw>but better systems are always good
15:14<+glx>valhallasw: vcxproj format is different than vcproj
15:15<valhallasw>oh, right
15:15<valhallasw>never realized that
15:15<+glx>maybe for csproj it's the same ;)
15:15<PeterT>they just add x to everything
15:15<PeterT>dox
15:15<PeterT>*docx
15:15<PeterT>pptx
15:15<@peter1138>vs2100 and vs2800?
15:15<valhallasw>PeterT: this X is for c++, not for 2k10 :p
15:16<valhallasw>at least, I think so
15:16<PeterT>valhallasw: I don't think so
15:16<valhallasw>yeah, I was thinking about csproj and thought other project files were the same
15:16<PeterT>*.vcxproj and *.vcproj
15:16<Bluelight>I better play some OpenTTD while Minecraft is down.. :p
15:16<valhallasw>oh, you're right again
15:16<valhallasw>maybe I should just shut up then :p
15:17<@peter1138>4k7Ω = 4700Ω
15:17<@peter1138>etc
15:17<@peter1138>pom te pom
15:18<@Rubidium>valhallasw: x is because that's microsoft's scheme... take a file extension, add an x and use that for everything released after 2008
15:18<Bluelight>What is "Download nightly (r20028)"?
15:18<valhallasw>so, where's my csxproj? :-(
15:18<valhallasw>I feel left out.
15:18<valhallasw>csprojx. right.
15:19<valhallasw>at least, that gives some google results :P
15:19<PeterT>Bluelight: what do you mean, "What is it?"?
15:20<@Rubidium>I don't fancy c-hash
15:20<@Rubidium>or anything .NET related
15:20*valhallasw likes WPF
15:21<Bluelight>nightly (r20028).. I don't know what it is..
15:21<@Rubidium>Bluelight: it's the automated (every night) compile of OpenTTD's development version
15:21<Bluelight>Ohh.. Cool!
15:22<Bluelight>Have you guys heard about Minecraft?
15:22<@Rubidium>yes
15:22<blathijs>Hmm, minecraft.net 404's :-S
15:22<Bluelight>Cool.. What do you think about Infdev?
15:22<PeterT>blathijs: <Bluelight> I better play some OpenTTD while Minecraft is down.. :p
15:22<Eoin>indev is wni
15:22<@Rubidium>never heard of that
15:23<Eoin>win*
15:23<Bluelight>Yeah he did an error in the website.. He say he will fix it when he gets home..
15:23<Eoin>indev is the paid version
15:23<blathijs>PeterT: Ah :-)
15:23<PeterT>:D
15:25<Bluelight>http://www.minecraft.net/infdev/ - It's really cool! When it's working.. :) He does some errors from time to time, but I hope Notch start on multiplayer soon..
15:25<Bluelight>Hmm.. Maybe I should try to fire up my server hardware..
15:26<Bluelight>Does anyone know if I need both PSU's?
15:26<Bluelight>Proliant two 400W PSU's.. :p
15:26<blathijs>Bluelight: I think Proliants complain when just one is connected
15:27<Bluelight>Ohh, really? Hmm..
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15:27<blathijs>meaning you'll have to press F1 to continue or something (at least or DL380G1 did, which was quite frustrating when it was in the datacenter :-p)
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15:27<Bluelight>He he..
15:27<@Rubidium>Bluelight: you should ask my university's former sysadmin about how to fire up Proliants; he was quite good in that
15:27<blathijs>I think newer proliants have an option to disable the F1 press on errors
15:27<blathijs>Rubidium: PP ?
15:28<blathijs>Rubidium: Or are you referring to the guy that torched TWRC?
15:28<@Rubidium>blathijs: the latter
15:28<blathijs>:-)
15:29-!-Polygon [~Poly@n15-60.dsl.vianetworks.de] has joined #openttd
15:29<blathijs>Yeah, I guess he fired up tens or maybe even hundreds of Proliants then :-)
15:30<Bluelight>Wow
15:30<Bluelight>But now I don't remember my FTP login.. :p
15:30<Bluelight>I just build a new computer and all my files is on another HDD.. :(
15:30-!-KritiK [~Maxim@95-26-54-82.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
15:31<Bluelight>Ok, I will try with two PSU's then, but does it use 800W then? Or does it just use one of the PSUs even though two are connected?
15:32<@Rubidium>it'll definitely use more than 1 PSU
15:32<@Rubidium>although unlikely the 800W
15:32<@Rubidium>because if it did, then it wouldn't be able to run on one PSU
15:33<blathijs>It also depends a bit on the hardware in there (and if scaling etc. is supported)
15:33<@Rubidium>and given it's a server, lots of monies are spent making it efficient instead of cheap to reduce the heat stuff
15:33<blathijs>with newer hardware, it will do scaling and probably not come close to the 400W with a single PSU
15:34<blathijs>(OTOH, older hardware, like my DL360G3 with a PIII CPU doesn't support fancy stuff and thinks it's a sport to maximize the PSU utilization by draining a constant 185W out of the 180W PSU...)
15:39<valhallasw>with current power costs upgrading might actually be cost-efficient ;)
15:40<CIA-9>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r20033 /trunk/ (.gitignore .hgignore): -Fix: gitignore and hgignore had more missing/wrong entries.
15:41<blathijs>valhallasw: Yeah, I'm considering buying a Dell R210, which is know to only use 30-40W
15:41<blathijs>valhallasw: I think that would save me around EUR 500 per year or something
15:41<blathijs>(My hoster charges per kWh used)
15:42<valhallasw>yeah
15:43<valhallasw>and your PIII probably is a 2U server?
15:43<blathijs>I'd lose my iLO then, though (since I can't afford a new server with iLO / DRAC / IPMI / whatever
15:43<blathijs>valhallasw: No, it's 1U
15:43<blathijs>valhallasw: The DL380G2/G3 are 2U
15:43<valhallasw>ah
15:44<Bluelight>I have DL380 G3, and goddamn it makes noise..
15:44<blathijs>hehe, that's why they invented datacentres :-p
15:44<Bluelight>I can't have this running in my home, lol
15:44<valhallasw>haha
15:45<valhallasw>I have two old physics simulation cluster servers
15:45<@Rubidium>at least you won't be losing your server if it makes that much noise
15:45<valhallasw>they are noisy and use way too much power
15:45<blathijs>Yeah, old servers have that :-)
15:45<valhallasw>2x athlon 1667. Very useful for heating though.
15:46<@Rubidium>cooling paste is good for (over)heating as well
15:47<Bluelight>First time I run it now, but I don't have WMware EXS server password, lool
15:47-!-DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-13-89.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd
15:47<Bluelight>What is WMware ESX?
15:48<@Rubidium>maybe you have it but make too many typos tying is
15:48<planetmaker>Bluelight: a mis-spelt VMWare ESX
15:48<@Rubidium>s/s$/t/
15:48<Bluelight>He he..
15:48<Bluelight>What is it?
15:48<Bluelight>Is it expencive?
15:48<planetmaker>yes
15:48<planetmaker>a virtualization software
15:48<Bluelight>And I don't have the password.. He he..
15:49<Bluelight>Damn
15:49<@Rubidium>you bought it from some company with VMware ESX still installed?
15:50<Bluelight>Yeah
15:50<blathijs>sloppy
15:50<Bluelight>Man I can't hear what I'm thinking with this thing running..
15:51<Bluelight>Is there a way to log in without the password?
15:52-!-ajmiles2 [~aj@137.205.16.68] has joined #openttd
15:53<Bluelight>What does the virtualization thingy do?
15:53<Bluelight>Do I need it?
15:53<blathijs>Bluelight: It allows runing multiple "virtual" servers on a single server
15:53<Bluelight>Cool
15:53<valhallasw>but if you don't know what it is, you probably don't need it :-)
15:53<Bluelight>Now I know what it is..
15:54<blathijs>Yeah, but you can do without it just as fine (there's also a bunch of free softwares that do something similar)
15:54<Bluelight>But I thought WMware was free..?
15:54<blathijs>There's multiple versions of VMWare
15:54<blathijs>I think ESX is the professional version
15:54<Bluelight>Ok, can you explain the variations please?
15:54<blathijs>There's also ESXi, which might be free
15:54<blathijs>Bluelight: Just google a bit
15:54<Bluelight>Ok
15:54<blathijs>I don't know them either
15:54<Bluelight>Thank you.. :)
15:55<blathijs>but if you just want to get started with the server, you should probably just overwrite the ESX installation with a new OS
15:58-!-ajmiles [~aj@137.205.16.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:58<Bluelight>So! How bout Linux?
15:59<valhallasw>Nah. Just use Windows Server.
15:59*valhallasw runs ~/o/
15:59<Bluelight>Do I need command line skillls to run a Linux OpenTTD?
15:59<Bluelight>I don't want Microsoft.. :p
16:02<planetmaker>hm... rail types and tram tracks don't like eachother :-(
16:04<blathijs>Bluelight: Then go experiment with Linux :-)
16:05*MeCooL :)
16:06<PeterT>Bluelight: do you play OpenTTD from command line?
16:06<PeterT>:p
16:07<Bluelight>No, I play it on Windows XP, but I want to host with Linux.. And I will host a TeamSpeak server too.. And Minecraft multiplayer when it gets out..
16:08<PeterT>well, hosting
16:08<PeterT>indeed so, you need command line skills
16:12<planetmaker>Bluelight: then have fun without command line ;-)
16:13<Bluelight>without?
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16:40<welshdragon>Ammler: you around?
16:43<welshdragon>or in fact: anybody:
16:44<@Rubidium>@seen anybody
16:44<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: I have not seen anybody.
16:44<welshdragon>openttd-dedicated requires openttd-opengfx
16:44<welshdragon>openttd-opengfx requires openttd
16:44<welshdragon>openttd conflicts with openttd-dedicated
16:44<planetmaker>sounds sensible
16:44<@Rubidium>planetmaker: it doesn't
16:44<planetmaker>unless you rename binaries
16:44<welshdragon>(this is from the server admin who is trying to install openttd-dedicated on CentOS)
16:45<@Rubidium>unless openttd-dedicated provides openttd
16:45<planetmaker>yes
16:45<planetmaker>true
16:45<+glx>blame centos maintainer ;)
16:45<planetmaker>which is Ammler ;)
16:45<welshdragon>haha
16:45<planetmaker>or at least OpenSuSE. But he provides afaik the rpms
16:45<welshdragon>yes, he does
16:46<Ammler>[22:44] <welshdragon> openttd-opengfx requires openttd <-- that is wrong
16:46<Ammler>should be openttd-data
16:46-!-Goulpy [~Muxy@main.goulp.net] has joined #openttd
16:46<welshdragon>that's what i was told
16:48<Ammler>http://obs.openttdcoop.org/specs/openttd-data-opengfx/openttd-data-opengfx.spec <-- I see no require openttd
16:48<Ammler>I assume, you mix repos
16:48<welshdragon> i gave him the address you gave me :P
16:49<Ammler>the official rpms might have such config
16:49<welshdragon>Ammler: there is the package openttd-data
16:49<Bluelight>Is Server version of Ubuntu any good?
16:50-!-tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-31-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:50<Ammler>welshdragon: my repo doesn't have package openttd-opengfx
16:51<welshdragon>Ammler: i'm not disputing that
16:51<Ammler>so obviously you mix official repos with my repos
16:51<welshdragon>no no
16:51<welshdragon>openttd-dedicated requires openttd-opengfx
16:51<welshdragon>openttd-opengfx requires openttd
16:51<welshdragon>openttd conflicts with openttd-dedicated
16:51<welshdragon>There's a broken package somewhere
16:52-!-tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-7-74.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd
16:52-!-mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ
16:53<Xaroth_>lol
16:53<Ammler>hmm, I am not aware someone else is building openttd-dedicated
16:53-!-Muxy [~Muxy@main.goulp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:53<welshdragon>Ammler: this is from http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/openttdcoop/CentOS_5/
16:53<Ammler>and my openttd-dedicated doesn't require openttd-opengfx
16:54<welshdragon>hm
16:54<Ammler>do you see openttd-opengfx there?
16:57-!-Narcissus [~alex@millsie.net] has joined #openttd
16:57<Narcissus>uhh Ammler
16:57<Narcissus>welshdragon: wanted me to talk to you
16:57<welshdragon>:P
16:58<__ln__>planetmaker: you haven't sent payment details yet, have you? (just checking)
16:58<welshdragon>Ammler: Narcissus is the server admin who is installing the dedicated server
16:59<Narcissus>s/server admin/mug/
16:59-!-Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77794.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:00<Ammler>Narcissus: maybe you install the devel tools and let them build openttd :-)
17:00<Ammler>openttd-dedicated works fine here
17:00<Ammler>there is no openttd-opengfx in my repo
17:01<Narcissus>Ammler: Deutsch?
17:01<Ammler>dann aber query :-)
17:01<Narcissus>1 moment bitte
17:04<Bluelight>Is Server version of Ubuntu any good? Does it have a user interface or is it commandline too?
17:04<__ln__>commandline is a user interface.
17:07-!-Phoenix_the_II [ralph@f234099.upc-f.chello.nl] has joined #openttd
17:07<valhallasw>it's impossible to configure a linux server without editing config files
17:07<valhallasw>and it doesn't really add anything, anyway
17:08<valhallasw>if there is any graphical program you insist on using, just use SSH with X-tunneling
17:08<valhallasw>works like a charm
17:08<valhallasw>and yes, I very much like ubuntu's server edition
17:09<valhallasw>more than debian - although comparing a fresh ubuntu install to a five-year-old-but-updated debian install might not be fair
17:12<@Rubidium>I'm not that sure about security for Ubuntu though
17:12<@Rubidium>only a very small set of packages they deem important, the rest is up to the users to keep secure
17:13<@Rubidium>whereas in Debian the security team cares about all packages
17:14<@Rubidium>e.g. I made patches for 4 different "old" versions of Ubuntu for security stuff which they left open for many months and then seemingly just dropped
17:15<@Rubidium>Debian has a patched 0.6.2 in their stable release; it might be old, but it at least is "maintained"
17:17-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1B7BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:19<valhallasw>Ubuntu doesn't care about old releases, I think
17:19<valhallasw>and, realistically, Debian only does that for its Stable release
17:19<@Rubidium>for their officially supported stable releases, yes
17:19<valhallasw>yeah
17:20-!-sparr [sparr@c-24-98-228-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
17:21<@Rubidium>point is, Ubuntu doesn't even seem to "care" for their current release
17:21<Ammler>quite stupid to patch 0.6.2 instead simply using new stable
17:21<Bluelight>Hmm..
17:22<@Rubidium>Ammler: it's not that stupid
17:22<Ammler>yeah, it's debian ;-)
17:22<Bluelight>BRB
17:22-!-Bluelight [~chatzilla@9.80-202-82.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.6/20100625231939]]
17:23<@Rubidium>Ammler: you fancy python getting updated from 2.something to 3.something for a security fix?
17:23<Ammler>well, at least it is secure as nobody runs 0.6.2 so you can't connect other servers anyway
17:23-!-Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7752E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
17:23<@Rubidium>and as side effect of the fix break a lot of programs that don't work with the new version of python?
17:24<valhallasw>Ammler: the idea is: only fix the bugs, don't introduce features
17:24<Ammler>Rubidium: that is yacc, not distro
17:24<@Rubidium>Ammler: huh? What has yacc to do with python upgrades?
17:24<valhallasw>but it doesn't make sense to have openttd in debian stable anyway
17:24<PeterT>is the source for the WebTranslator public? we'd like to use it for xShunter's translations
17:25<Ammler>valhallasw: that is 0.6.3
17:26<@Rubidium>valhallasw: why? If people like it and don't care about upgrading every few months and don't care about MP... then 0.6.2 isn't that bad
17:27<Ammler>not using upstream bugfixes is imo bad
17:27<valhallasw>if you use debian stable as desktop OS, it makes sense. But why would you want that?
17:28<@Rubidium>Ammler: but they (Debian + OpenTTD in this case) are using upstream bugfixes
17:28<valhallasw>it makes sense for a server that has no configuration changes and should just stay running for the next 23 years
17:29<Ammler>valhallasw: the lifetime of debian is quite short for that too
17:29<valhallasw> true
17:29*Rubidium wonders whether Ammler ever saw http://security.openttd.org/
17:29<Ammler>then you should use centos
17:30*valhallasw doesnt want to administer a server at all
17:30<valhallasw>although I kinda miss a dedicated apache server
17:31-!-yorick [~yorick@ip51cd0513.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Quit: Poef!]
17:32<Ammler>Rubidium: I would assume, those patches in upstream
17:33<@Rubidium>Ammler: that sentence doesn't make sense to me
17:33<Ammler>are also*
17:34<Ammler>debian guys made 0.6.2 package with the patches before you released 0.6.3?
17:34<@Rubidium>Ammler: no, but those patches were never included in 0.6.3
17:35<@Rubidium>or anything else until 0.7.5 and 1.0.1 (depending on the patch)
17:36<Ammler>oh, they still update the 0.6.2 with those patches?
17:36<Ammler>well, they need to
17:36-!-heffer [~felix@static-87-78-98-150.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: heffer]
17:36<Ammler>but that is only possible, because you have such good service
17:36<@Rubidium>Ammler: yes... it's 0.6.2 + patches for the known vulnerabilities in 0.6.2
17:37<Ammler>what are they doing with other projects, where devs don't provide such a nice security patch repo?
17:37<@Rubidium>cherrypick patches from upstream and backport them
17:37<@Rubidium>e.g. they would backport r19695
17:38<Ammler>in that time, you could easy just use upstream source release and make recent packages
17:39<Ammler>that might make sense for other services, but not for openttd
17:40<@Rubidium>the smaller the patch, the better it can be tested and thus the least chance of something going wrong
17:40<Ammler>it can't be tested, as nobody is using it
17:41<@Rubidium>no, it can be tested because it is a small contained change
17:41<Ammler>if you are up2date, you have tester :-)
17:42<Wolf01>'night
17:42<Ammler>I still think, they wouldn't do that with openttd, if you wouldn't supply the patches
17:42-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host226-233-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
17:43<@Rubidium>Ammler: why not? It's a network server and compromising a server via that is bad... so security *is* important
17:43<@Rubidium>for something that doesn't have network support security is much less of an issue
17:44<@Rubidium>but I think we can debate this indefinitely and still not come to an agreement
17:44*Rubidium wonders what people would say if you ditched security support for Windows XP when Vista was released just because there's a new version that already has the security fixes
17:45<Ammler>2 0.6.2 servers running
17:45<Ammler>maybe those are debian :-)
17:45<@Rubidium>yeah, could very well be the case
17:45<Ammler>Rubidium: I just meant it is stupid to make such effort for openttd
17:45<@Rubidium>is that a problem? Nope... shows that it just works and they didn't need to resort to downloading some version from the internet because it didn't work
17:46<@Rubidium>Ammler: where do you draw the line?
17:46<Ammler>it be now with 1.0
17:46<Ammler>well, they force the clients to use such an old version too
17:47<Ammler>that might be higher risk :-)
17:47<Ammler>if those run without the pathces
17:47<@Rubidium>but the clients will likely be other Debian stable users
17:48<@Rubidium>and a patched server with unpatched client (or vice versa) works just fine
17:48<Ammler>well, they should add a M :-P
17:49<Ammler>or a -fix
17:49<@Rubidium>yeah... like "your" clientside patchpack does
17:49<Ammler>:-)
17:50<@Rubidium>or those goal servers do
17:50<Ammler>also 0.6 wasn't really good MP branch
17:51-!-Wizzleby [locke@204-74-213-37.take2hosting.com] has joined #openttd
17:52-!-Yexo [~Yexo@ip51cca4b5.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd
17:52<Yexo>good evening
17:53<@Rubidium>Ammler: there're no real statistics on desyncs, so it's doubtful much can be said about it
17:53<__ln__>evening, Y
17:53<Ammler>hmm, maybe the feeling was such, as there was more newgrfs in use
17:54<Ammler>dunno, did autoreplace ever work there?
17:56<Ammler>does debian support a non-x openttd at all?
17:56<@Rubidium>Ammler: I guess it did
17:56<PeterT>do you guys post the webtranslator's source anywhere? I would like to have it for xShunter ;-)
17:56<@Rubidium>Ammler: there is no dedicated server package if you wanted to ask that
17:57<Ammler>PeterT: wait for 3.1
17:57<PeterT>Ammler: why?
17:57<PeterT>Ammler: I don't care about bugs, I just need the webtranslator
17:57<Yexo>because the source of the current version is not and will not be available
17:57<Ammler>grep the logs for reasons
17:57<PeterT>ok, so 3.1 will be available?
17:57<@Rubidium>evening Vjenne
17:57<Yexo>I asked tb the same thing and that was the answer, see logs of a few weeks back
17:58<Yexo>evening rb
17:58<PeterT>I'm not going to search through weeks of logs - I'll take your word for it. if you do find some reasons, please notify me. thanks :-)
17:59<Yexo>main reason was that the current code is a mess and too specific for openttd
17:59<PeterT>ok, then I shall wait
18:00<@Rubidium>Ammler: and as far as I'm aware nobody has (officially) requested it yet for Debian
18:00<PeterT>Yexo: is wt actively developed?
18:00<Ammler>sadly opensuse has no stats
18:00<Ammler>so no idea, if someone is using my packages
18:01<Yexo>PeterT: no
18:01-!-Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-86-31-207-152.oxfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
18:01-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~Administr@89.246.167.248] has joined #openttd
18:01<PeterT>so 3.1 won't come anytime soon?
18:01<Yexo>correct
18:01<Yexo>unless you can motivate TrueBrain to write it
18:02<PeterT>TrueBrain doesn't like me :(
18:02<@Rubidium>so, guess 200 actual servers (multiple servers per server), assume none self compiled, all dedicated and the same version... say 1.0.0 which had 150k downloads... yields 1 dedicated server per 750 "clients"
18:02<PeterT>I guess it doesn't matter - we'll use some other translation technique
18:04<TrueBrain>PeterT: money motivates me
18:04<Ammler>well, none self compliled and dedicated doesn't fit
18:04<Ammler>as you need to compile self for dedicated
18:05<TrueBrain>I need at least 80 hours for WT3.1, but lets be safe, 120 hours. 100 euro per hour, so if you can wire 12,000.00 euro to my account, I am sure it can be arranged
18:05<@Rubidium>Ammler: *assume*
18:05<Ammler>yes, but that would be worth, wouldn't?
18:06<Ammler>I mean how many downloads of 1.0.x?
18:06-!-theholyduck [~holyduck@ip-108-138-106-77.eidsiva.net] has quit [Quit: Forlater kanalen]
18:06<Ammler>150k, sorry :-P
18:06<@Rubidium>Ammler: 1.0.0 has 150k
18:06-!-theholyduck [~holyduck@ip-108-138-106-77.eidsiva.net] has joined #openttd
18:07-!-HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Administr@88.130.176.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:07<@Rubidium>Ammler: ~300k for all stable releases of the 1.0 branch
18:07<Ammler>how many debian lenny downloads?
18:07<PeterT>TrueBrain: I'll give $20,000
18:07<Ammler>or the other
18:07<PeterT>(Zimbabwe dollars, that is)
18:07<Ammler>(the least)
18:07<@Rubidium>Ammler: add ~130k for 1.0 testing releases
18:07<TrueBrain>I explicitly asked for euros
18:07<TrueBrain>no wonder I don;t like you :p
18:08<PeterT>hehe
18:08*TrueBrain hugs PeterT
18:08<TrueBrain>that was mean
18:08*PeterT hugs TrueBrain
18:08<PeterT>oh, it's ok
18:08<@Rubidium>Ammler: ~3.5% of the downloads is Debian Lenny
18:08<TrueBrain>gay
18:08<PeterT>I know you don't mean it
18:08*PeterT runs away crying
18:08<Ammler>Rubidium: it might not be worth to have dedicated versions on binaries.openttd.org
18:09<Ammler>but it could be worth to supply those from the distro repos
18:10<Ammler>or to have support from the Makefile to make those packages
18:10<Ammler>so you don't need to build twice
18:10<PeterT>TrueBrain: I don't have 12,000 euros, so I'll just wait until you motivate yourself
18:10<PeterT>if such a thing exists
18:11<@Rubidium>Ammler: the makefile thing is just too much work for too little benefit
18:11<TrueBrain>PeterT: most likely only if I need it in another project :) The support for WT3.1 I got last time consisted soly out of planetmaker
18:11<TrueBrain>despite the fact 3 big projects showed interest ... just no feedback what so ever ..
18:11<@Rubidium>as you'd need to split out stuff as #ifdef DEDICATED is used at several places throughout the project
18:12<PeterT>TrueBrain: I see
18:12<PeterT>also, about you not liking me - at least you don't ignore me :)
18:13<@Rubidium>maybe planetmaker can push you for support for NML :)
18:13<TrueBrain>I have a mental ignore for people who annoy me; but fair questions will be answered :)
18:13<PeterT>TrueBrain: I try not to ignore you anymore ;-)
18:13<planetmaker>what's up?
18:13<PeterT>err...s/ignore/annoy/
18:13<@Rubidium>although NML's language format is very much like OpenTTD's format, so it might even be possible in 3.0 with minor changes
18:13-!-bryjen [~bryjen@63.147.94.149] has quit [Quit: Quit]
18:14<planetmaker>ah :-)
18:14<Yexo>it was designed to be very much like openttd's language files
18:14<Ammler>maybe a 3.0.1 ;-)
18:14<planetmaker>we'd need to do that jointly with some newgrf version changes?
18:14<Yexo>but since I have no idea how wt works internally I have no idea how much changes would be needed
18:14-!-theholyduck [~holyduck@ip-108-138-106-77.eidsiva.net] has quit [Quit: Forlater kanalen]
18:15<TrueBrain>in theory WT3.0 has support for branches
18:15<TrueBrain>it was designed like that
18:15<TrueBrain>just, it was never tested
18:15<TrueBrain>so I have no clue if all checks are in place
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18:15<TrueBrain>(and I wouldn't count on it :D)
18:15<planetmaker>why would we need a branch?
18:15<TrueBrain>no, I say it has support for branches
18:16<TrueBrain>so, it support multiple sets of language files next to eachother
18:16<planetmaker>:-)
18:16<TrueBrain>just ... there is a good change it won't work :)
18:16<TrueBrain>as at some point I believe I gave up on adding the tons of checks that it requires :D
18:17<Terkhen>good night
18:17<PeterT>'night Terkhen
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---Logclosed Tue Jun 29 00:00:46 2010