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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-01-10

---Logopened Mon Jan 10 00:00:17 2011
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03:17<zgrillo2004>anyone there
03:18<@Rubidium>sorry, last time I saw anyone he was playing on #openttdcoop's public server
03:18<zgrillo2004>I have a question
03:18<zgrillo2004>this screenshot shows buildings I have not seen
03:18<zgrillo2004>sry if im a noob
03:19<@Rubidium>looks like the total town replacement NewGRF
03:19<zgrillo2004>do you know where can I find this?
03:20<@Rubidium>probably via the in-game content downloader
03:20<zgrillo2004>hmm let me check
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03:25<zgrillo2004>java screwed up
03:25<zgrillo2004>yea thats it
03:25<zgrillo2004>thanks man
03:25<zgrillo2004>*thumbs up
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03:40<kamnet>You know what would be nice? If tt-forums or offered a shortcut URL service to link to posts in the forums.
03:41<kamnet>Or, alternate idea - would it be okay to open a wiki page for my Scott Joplin Anthology set?
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04:18<kamnet>OK this is crazy, I just added my set to bananas, it shows up, I download, it now disappears
04:19<@Rubidium>then you've got the same "version" with another md5 checksum already locally
04:21<kamnet>Hrm... well it's not in the gm directory
04:21<kamnet>of either data/ or content_download/
04:23<@Rubidium>No music file for: old_9 (in /home/rubidium/.openttd/content_download/gm/scott_joplin_anthology-2/scott_joplin.obm)
04:23<@Rubidium>it's basically missing a file and therefor not showing up
04:23<kamnet>okay I know what I did
04:23<kamnet>people complained about the entertaining being in there twice so I eliminated one.
04:30<kamnet>Grrr... now BaNaNas says I can't upload because there's a file with the exact same footprint
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04:38<kamnet>Lovely browser crash
04:38<kamnet>Updated to 2.0.1, downloaded again... still not showing up.
04:39<@Rubidium>No music file for: ezy_9 (in /home/rubidium/.openttd/content_download/gm/scott_joplin_anthology-2.0.1/scott_joplin.obm)
04:39<kamnet>*slaps forehead*
04:39<kamnet>OK so it has to have the listing for all the slots there, even if there's no music
04:43<kamnet>OK now how do I get around this same footprint business?
04:44<@Rubidium>the md5 checksum of all midi files is used as unique ID for the set, which is that footprint stuff
04:44<@Rubidium>so change one of the midis?
04:44<kamnet>So how do you update a package with, say, a new license?
04:45<@Rubidium>you can't
04:45<@Rubidium>as for OpenTTD (the binary) both versions would be seen as the same in any case
04:46<kamnet>and apparently you cannot upload a correction in the obm files either
04:46<@Rubidium>that's a side effect
04:46<kamnet>a rather large one
04:46<@Rubidium>though... people that have the "broken
04:46<kamnet>and no way to delete a package off of bananas once it's been uploaded
04:47<@Rubidium>people that have the "broken" obm won't be downloading the new obm because the footprint didn't change
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04:48<@Rubidium>yes, it may seem like a stupid design decision
04:49<kamnet>So I'm stuck.
04:49<@Rubidium>but... it solves a lot of hassle as comparing the ob? file doesn't work quite as well when it has differing newlines
04:50<@Rubidium>well... or I could mess with the database with the possibility to completely break SJA
04:50<kamnet>Nah, it's not stupid... just slightly unyielding to a few issues.
04:52<kamnet>if you mess with it and break it, can you roll the database back?
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04:53<@Rubidium>try again
04:53<kamnet>try to upload my new file or download from bananas?
04:54<@Rubidium>as downloading SJA won't work anymore
04:58<kamnet>Eureka! Thank you kindly
05:02<kamnet>I am now tired and retired.
05:02<kamnet>I have to be up in 8 hours for work.
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06:33<__ln__>how many colors would that contain if there wasn't mode +c?
06:34<Eddi|zuHause>i presume there's an upper limit of one per letter :p
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06:34<__ln__>plus the background
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>hm, you're right
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06:36<zaratustra>wow. this is busy
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06:42<fjb>Moin planetmaker, how is the weather over there?
06:43<@planetmaker>sunny, about 3°C and clear
06:43<@planetmaker>so... not bad :-)
06:44<fjb>Same as here. :-)
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>isn't "over there" like in spitting distance? :p
06:44<Wolf01>foggy and rainy, about 10°C
06:45<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: almost :-)
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07:04*Wolf01 slaps [Xed]__ around a bit with a large trout
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07:05<fjb>No slapping please. We are a kids friedly channel.
07:06<@planetmaker>please don't fry the kids here...
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07:08<@planetmaker>fjb, and better eat something else also at home, or I'll have to call police ;-)
07:09<Ammler>aren't kids those who slaps and bites the most?
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07:09<fjb>Ammler: Pssssst
07:10<@planetmaker>not in fried form...
07:10<@planetmaker>or rather not the fried(ly) ones :-P
07:14<Ammler>nightly download broken?
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07:16<Wolf01>mmmh the date functions make extensively use of global variables
07:17<Ammler>us mirror is broken
07:17<Ammler>orudge: ^
07:18<roboboy>Wolf01, I would drop the ly in extensively when used in that context
07:19<Wolf01>yes, I noticed it when I already sent the line
07:19<Ammler>I though, the mirror software does test the mirror and no redirect to broken mirror?
07:21<Ammler>also is it possible, because the us mirror is broken, it got less traffic and therefor more redirects?
07:21<@Rubidium>Ammler: the Dutch mirror is broken and out of rotation
07:21<Ammler>and so the chance that europeans got redirected there is higher?
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07:22<Ammler>Rubidium: us too
07:22<Ammler>no recent nightly
07:23<@Rubidium>oh, so it's up but mirroring to it failed for some reason
07:23<@Rubidium>that's something else than that the mirror is down
07:24<Ammler>never said, it is down :-)
07:24<Ammler>just broken
07:24<@Rubidium>broken kinda implies it doesn't work at all
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09:09<Wolf01> yeah
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09:15<zaratustra>that's kind of depressing, wolf
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11:08*peter1138 still gives up on a* :s
11:09<@peter1138>i'd copy openttd's, but i'd kinda like to understand it :S
11:11<@planetmaker>peter1138, and surely you have read the basics before?*_search_algorithm
11:13<@SmatZ>you have open nodes ordered by cost function, f(x)=g(x)+h(x), where g(x) is cost to get to node 'x' from start, and h(x) is the expected price (heuristics) to get from 'x' to end
11:13<@SmatZ>h(x) must be <= the actual cost to get from 'x' to end
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11:13<@SmatZ>you always examine the node with lowest f(x)
11:15<@SmatZ>compute f(y) for nodes reachable from x, and update 'y' if the new cost (from 'x') is lower than currently computed f(y)
11:15<@SmatZ>or something like that :)
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11:25<fjb>Moin LordAro
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11:58<ZirconiumX>hello SmatZ
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12:01<@Terkhen>yet another hello
12:01<Zuu>does anyone know a FF plugin that lets you view the png metadata in the browser, so you can checkout the OpenTTD version etc. of screenshots without having to save them first?
12:01<@SmatZ>hello :)
12:01<Zuu>oh and hello :-)
12:02-!-ZirconiumX is now known as hello
12:02<Zuu>hello hello
12:04<hello>10 hellos
12:06*hello wonders what life would be like if there was a Hello Transport
12:07<hello>oh damn...
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12:21<Eddi|zuHause>is that anything like "Hello Kitty"?
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12:25*ZirconiumX has no idea who hello is, nor what Eddi|zuHause has just said
12:28<deepa>Clearly you should Google it
12:28<ZirconiumX>I know *what* hello kitty is, but not *why* he/she has said it
12:34<deepa>You said Hello Transport
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12:37<frosch123>there is no Goodbye Transport though
12:38<ZirconiumX>frosch123: Just as well really, imagine how dull it would be
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12:49*LordAro wonders what everyone is going on about...
12:49<Zuu>Oh, it looks like my OTTDAU log issues is related to that it thinks current nightlies are stable versions and not the actual log format.
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12:50<Zuu>No idea really why though as the version-format doesn't look like it has changed.
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13:24<@peter1138>oh, well, that's bloody embarassing :s
13:24<@peter1138>i got astar to work
13:24<@peter1138>but i was testing, and it couldn't get from 0,0 to 2,2
13:24<@peter1138>spent ages on it :(
13:24<@peter1138>turns out that 2,2 is a solid block :S
13:35<@peter1138>cool, it even works on my complex terrain
13:39<@peter1138>can take a while though, heh
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13:40*ZirconiumX wishes to know how he got it to work, to help me make SPF
13:41<@peter1138>just looking at the numbers, i can see the path wiggles around a bit :D
13:41<ZirconiumX>Super Path Finder
13:41<ZirconiumX>I'm writing a PF for AroAI
13:42<@peter1138>well... it's "just" astar, as they say :S
13:42<@peter1138>it's inefficient
13:42<ZirconiumX>look at the list at the side, it might help
13:43<@peter1138>well it works now
13:43<@peter1138>i'll see how efficient it is
13:43<ZirconiumX>D* might help, as it doesn't goo for a fixed value
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13:46<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r21766 /trunk/src/lang/ (15 files): (log message trimmed)
13:46<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<CIA-2>OpenTTD: belarusian - 6 changes by KorneySan, Wowanxm
13:46<CIA-2>OpenTTD: catalan - 1 changes by arnau
13:46<CIA-2>OpenTTD: croatian - 1 changes by VoyagerOne
13:46<CIA-2>OpenTTD: dutch - 1 changes by habell
13:46<CIA-2>OpenTTD: estonian - 1 changes by notAbot
13:48<@peter1138>well, i'll probably run the pathfinding in a separate thread
13:49*ZirconiumX is rubbish at noughts and crosses
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14:03*LordAro wonders whether anyone knows of a portable 'make' program...
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14:04<ZirconiumX>why, what do you need it for
14:04<ZirconiumX>I can see if I can do it for you
14:04<ZirconiumX>but use gnumake
14:04<ZirconiumX>if it works on windows
14:11<fonsinchen>There is no longer a way to add newgrfs to a scenario after starting the scenario editor, is there?
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>set scenario_developer
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15:11<V453000>how many frames per second does openttd have?
15:17<dihedral>if a day lasts ~2.4s and has 74frames :-)
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15:42<dihedral>general programming question: say i have a bot, it can handle commands (e.g. @seen), it can be extended with plugins, plugins can introduce another connection to e.g. IRC or XMPP or any other place where a user can enter a command (in this case @seen)
15:43<dihedral>each of these sources for commands provide different information: IRC provides a channel, nick, host, user
15:43<dihedral>OpenTTD for example only available data is ip, username, user id
15:44<dihedral>how would i decently build a template out of that :-P
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15:44<dihedral>have a separate class for users only used in the context of executing commands?
15:44<@planetmaker>not everything can be templated and generalized ;-)
15:46<@planetmaker>but a UI class would seem to make sense
15:47<blathijs>dihedral: What do you want to template exactly?
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15:49<dihedral>i want to be able to define a command without knowing from where it's called
15:49<dihedral>'from where' defines things like irc, xmpp, openttd
15:49<dihedral>and console
15:49<blathijs>dihedral: But what does the template render to? The reply to give, or?
15:49<dihedral>how to get hold of information about the user who executed the command
15:49<@DorpsGek>dihedral: seen [<channel>] <nick>
15:50<dihedral>DorpsGek got hold of 'dihedral'
15:50<dihedral>further information is bound to that nick
15:50<dihedral>e.g. user and host
15:50<dihedral>for xmpp and openttd this information is different
15:50<dihedral>i want to generalize how to get hold of that information, yet i do not know exactly how
15:51<dihedral>further, the process of sending a public / private message back to the user :-P
15:51<dihedral>needs to be generalized a bit too, as the command itself is probably not familiar with the exact process for each source
15:51<dihedral>e.g. for OpenTTD i send either a message or a user / company id + a message.
15:52<dihedral>for IRC it's channel name and message for a public message, etc etc
15:53<blathijs>dihedral: Perhaps you could take the context from the original message?
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15:54<blathijs>e.g., message.reply("Some witty reply") gets routed to the right channel and prefixed with the nickname on IRC, or gets tagged with the company id on OpenTTD, etc.
15:56<@planetmaker>then define a generic 'responder' class. With methods to talk to and to get information from as virtual
15:57<DJNekkid>are there any known bugs if a rail translation table is larger then 15 entries?
15:57<@planetmaker>they'd be in known_bugs.txt ;-)
15:57<@planetmaker>so, no, DJNekkid
15:57<@planetmaker>but you could also simply ask your question :-P
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16:14<DJNekkid>what about when an engine have defined a tracktype that is not defined by a railtype, then it would simply be ignored, right?
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16:19<dihedral>i'll do more thinking about it :-S
16:19<dihedral>good night ;-)
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16:21<snorre>beta3 crash: Signal: Aborted (6), Message: Assertion failed at line 1493 of /usr/src/OpenTTD/compile/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: GetTunnelBridgeTransportType(tile) != TRANSPORT_RAIL.. known problem?
16:22*dihedral is glad it's not his code :-P
16:22<@planetmaker>not that I know
16:22<@planetmaker>can you make a bug report about that please, snorre ?
16:22<snorre>ok Im filing a bugreport
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16:27<@planetmaker>got a crash.png as well?
16:27<snorre>sorry. dedicated server
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16:30<@planetmaker>oh, missed that. when is the autosave supposed to crash?
16:32<dihedral>regarding the landscaping / clearing limit
16:32<dihedral>it is not possible to define a low burst and allow a company to gain a greater than burst limit
16:32*planetmaker wonders wonders whether that's related to the (possible) bancruptcy occuring maybe then...
16:33<dihedral>which could be interesting
16:33<dihedral>i.e. allow a company to landscape like 100 tiles but only in 20 tile blocks at a time
16:33<@planetmaker>did you test?
16:33<dihedral>this would though have to introduce yet another config setting
16:34<dihedral>..._max_limit e.g.
16:34<@Terkhen>planetmaker: if that is the case, then it is probably something done while removing company property after bankruptcy
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16:35*planetmaker suspects, so. But will get a bt first
16:35<Ammler>dihedral: a working solution is also simply disallow area-tf
16:35<dihedral>Ammler, how :-)
16:35<dihedral>setting the burst to 1? :-P
16:35<dihedral>or rather 4
16:36<Ammler>the bad guys are too lazy for clicking 100 times :-)
16:37<dihedral>ah wait ... never mind :-)
16:37<Ammler>now make that with a nicer error msg and you are done :-)
16:38<dihedral>we already have a limiting factor Ammler :-)
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16:38<Ammler>ah ok :-)
16:38<dihedral>@calc 65536 / 74
16:38<@DorpsGek>dihedral: 885.621621622
16:39<Ammler>I assume, much complicater that that :-P
16:39<dihedral>so you need burst * 885 to result in burst being added every day if possible? was that correct?
16:42<@planetmaker>hmpf. the backtrack could not be more meaningless
16:43<@Rubidium>V453000: a tick, when not fast forwarding and having enough CPU power, takes 30ms. Thus a day is 2.22s and there are 33.|3| ticks in a second
16:43<dihedral>planetmaker, if you are right, assuming it be bankruptcy issues, i could only assume the tunnel being removed before the train inside it
16:44<@SmatZ>dihedral: I doubt vehicles are removed AFTER properties
16:44<@SmatZ>it would have been found long time ago
16:45<dihedral>if a company got removed due to bankruptcy in a beta / rc / nightly
16:45<@Terkhen>it must be something introduced recently
16:45<@planetmaker>might also not be true. It's only the 2nd quarter I'm asked for that company
16:46<@Terkhen>as IIRC we got a bankruptcy related bug report a few months ago
16:46<@planetmaker>But it's time not for a nice 8-our hibernation mode, commonly called sleep ;-)
16:46<@planetmaker>good night :-)
16:46<@Terkhen>good night planetmaker
16:46<@SmatZ>good night planetmaker :)
16:47<@planetmaker>s/not/now/ of course ;-)
16:48<George>Hi. is it possible that one tile is town zone 3, and the nearby tile is zone 1?
16:48<@SmatZ>good thing is that it's perfectly reproducible from the last autosave
16:48<@SmatZ>wish all bugreports were like that one :)
16:48<@SmatZ>George: iirc yes, for big towns, there is no zone 2
16:49<@SmatZ>it was probably that way in TTD
16:51<George>Is there any information about it somewhere? I have to change available town zones checks then
16:52<@SmatZ>dihedral: ok, there is a train over that bridge :)
16:52<George>I mean Building availability mask (13) for action 0 for houses
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16:52<dihedral>SmatZ, :-)
16:53<@SmatZ>but the vehicle should be already removed
16:54<dihedral>SmatZ, should? or is!
16:54<@SmatZ>dihedral: it is removed
16:54<@SmatZ>but still CmdLandscapeClear fails
16:54<dihedral>well, something is left over :-P
16:54<@SmatZ>and rb has patch already :)
16:55<dihedral>this is insanity :-P
16:55<dihedral>Rubidium, you are too quick
16:55<@SmatZ>nope, just broken CmdLandscapeClear
16:55<dihedral>no fair
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16:58<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21767 /trunk/src/landscape.cpp: -Fix [FS#4397]: don't limit tile clearing during bankruptcy
17:00<LordAro>dihedral: wait. how did you know Rubidium had fixed it 3 minutes before he committed?
17:00<@Rubidium>LordAro: the magic of literacy
17:01<dihedral>LordAro, to be honest i did not see he had committed it until now :-D
17:01<dihedral>but that is an amusing bug :-)
17:02<LordAro>still not really getting how.. a pm? there's nothing in the bug report or here... ?
17:04<dihedral>look again
17:06<LordAro>ok then, how did SmatZ know? :p
17:06<dihedral>assume there to be something like a developers heaven for the official dev team ;-)
17:07<dihedral>if you aint on the official dev team, you aint welcome in their heaven either :-P
17:07*LordAro likes that idea... :D
17:07<dihedral>even if you know how to technically get to that heaven
17:09<dihedral>some means for them to communicate as a team without the public jibber jabber all over the place ;-)
17:09<@SmatZ>side channels
17:09*dihedral looks to the side
17:10<dihedral>i see none :-P
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17:10*LordAro wonders about #openttd.notice
17:11<dihedral>that's not it, but you are welcome to join the notice channel ;-)
17:12<LordAro>what's it for?
17:12<dihedral>consider notice to be a 'prophecy' channel with regards to the CIA messages in here :-P
17:12<@SmatZ>secret channels are not visible in the /whois list
17:12<Zuu>There is also a channel for AI developers that sometimes has been used by the devs for other discussions but they also have a channel for themself which I don't know the name of.
17:12<dihedral>SmatZ, yet some of us still know :-P
17:12<@SmatZ>joining the secret channel results in ban :P
17:12<@Rubidium>.notice is also for feedback of the CF
17:13*LordAro wonders about ... :D
17:13<Zuu>LordAro: no
17:13<dihedral>LordAro, you will not find it ;-)
17:13<dihedral>.dev is dead
17:13<dihedral>has not been used in ages
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17:13<LordAro>#openttd.rubidium-is-the-most-awesome-person-ever ?
17:14<@Rubidium>LordAro: many seem to disagree with that
17:14<dihedral>'many' = luukland & co?
17:15<@Rubidium>nah, even more
17:15<dihedral>well - 'most awesome' might be over the top :-D
17:17<LordAro>known as (slight) sarcasm :p ...though you're still high up there... :)
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17:19<dihedral>good night :-)
17:20<LordAro>good night dihedral
17:20<@SmatZ>night dihedral
17:20<LordAro>...and everyone else for that matter... :) bye!
17:20<@SmatZ>bye LordAro
17:21<Zuu>Sounds like a good idea. Night
17:21<@SmatZ>good night to you too, Zuu
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17:58<@Terkhen>good night
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19:06<@SmatZ>evening z-MaTRiX
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19:11<Mazur>Eve ning, SmatZ.
19:13*Mazur remembers a time when any mention of a Web item made me simply look it up.
19:14<Mazur>Innocent times, happy times.
19:15<@SmatZ>hello Mazur
19:15<@SmatZ>still happens to me
19:15<@SmatZ>I click like 90% of links that appear at IRC
19:16<@peter1138>aw damn
19:16<@peter1138>it's not picking the best path :S
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19:17<@SmatZ>perhaps your heurictic is wrong?
19:17<Mazur>Yeah, trains are stubborn little fellas.
19:17<@SmatZ>eg. h(x) is greater than the actual cost?
19:17<@SmatZ>strange :(
19:18<@peter1138>well, i don't think so, heh
19:19<@peter1138>it's just sqrtf(x*x+y*y+z*z)
19:19<@Yexo>try with h(x)=0
19:19*SmatZ just wanted to say that :)
19:19<@Yexo>should work, although you lose all advantages A* has over normal dijkstra
19:25<@peter1138>changed it to manhatten, and it works better
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19:28<ccfreak2k>peter1138, what is that?
19:28<ccfreak2k>It looks familiar.
19:28<ccfreak2k>Pythagorean theorum?
19:30<__ln__>no imperial variant of it?
19:30<Mazur>The distance as the spider makes its line.
19:31<Mazur>Quite independant of the units used.
19:31<Mazur>Or is tha not what you meant?
19:32<@peter1138>maybe being 3D is stumping it :S
19:35<Mazur>Most space tends to be it, though.
19:35<Mazur>As far as we know.
19:36<@SmatZ>[01:19:50] <peter1138> it's just sqrtf(x*x+y*y+z*z) <== to improve performance, you could compare g(x)*g(x)+x*x+y*y+z*z instead of g(x)+sqrt(x*x+y*y+z*z)
19:36<@SmatZ>(useless comment of the minute)
19:37<@SmatZ>it may be wrong
19:37*SmatZ better goes away
19:39<Mazur>Calculations like that may go wrong if you ignore the possibility of the argument between the brackets overflowing an integer and it does.
19:40<Mazur>vmstat used top do that, until I fixed it.
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19:42<Mazur>Happened if you left it running for x days, forgot what x was. Then 100*interval overflowed te integer they used for calculations/.
19:43<Mazur>2³²/100 seconds.
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19:47<Mazur>Or was it ticks? Or centiseconds.
19:47<Mazur>I''ve forgotten.
19:51<@peter1138>hmm, well, it uses the tunnels
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20:00<@peter1138>ok, gotta have a bug somewhere :s
20:00<@peter1138>probably all over it, hehe
20:02<@peter1138> <-- follow the red mushrooms...
20:03<@peter1138>(for that is what they are)
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20:13<@peter1138>Mazur, coordinates are up to about 2000 max
20:13<@peter1138>it doesn't overflow :)
20:16<Mazur>Just thoughtr I'd mention it.
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20:18<Ylioppilas>I should sneak in my sister's room and steal her mouse :(
20:18<Ylioppilas>playing on trackpad is frustrating :D
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21:20<+glx> <@peter1138> <-- follow the red mushrooms... <-- looks like minecraft
21:21<@peter1138>odd that
21:24<@peter1138>gah, more odd paths :(
21:36<@peter1138>well, i dunno
21:36<@peter1138>i don't know if my algorithm is messed up, or if it's just the costs
21:38<@peter1138>i get the best path by discounting height
21:38<@peter1138>but then it has difficulties with reaching some things
21:39<@peter1138>if it's underneath the point then the cost becomes 0
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22:01<+glx>A* doesn't like negative costs
22:07<Eddi|zuHause2>you could say "A* totally fails with negative costs"
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22:13<@peter1138>who said it's negative?
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22:52<@peter1138>it works better when the algorithm is correct
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23:39<@peter1138>except it's now really slow
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23:46<@peter1138>it's like ships, except nearly every node is traversible :p
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---Logclosed Tue Jan 11 00:00:20 2011