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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-01-15

---Logopened Sat Jan 15 00:00:13 2011
---Daychanged Sat Jan 15 2011
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02:02<@Terkhen>good morning
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02:22<@planetmaker>moin
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02:51<LordAro>moin
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02:53<@Terkhen>hi planetmaker and LordAro
02:53<LordAro>Terkhen: still setting up kvirc :)
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02:54<@Terkhen>hmm? unless you want SSL you just have to install and open it
02:54<LordAro>setting up as in making it look how i want
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02:54<@Terkhen>oh
02:55<@Terkhen>I just chose the most simple of the available themes and forgot about that
02:58<LordAro>good point that...
02:59*LordAro does the same
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03:26<andythenorth>trams http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?popular=24
03:27<andythenorth>http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=351563
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03:49<z-MaTRiX_nonidentified>h
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04:10<dihedral>:-( dd to a samba share is very slow here :-(
04:11<dihedral>why on earth would it only reach like 700K/s
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04:14<@Rubidium>bufferbloat?
04:14<@Rubidium>lots of fsyncs/fdatasyncs?
04:14<dihedral>hmmm
04:15<dihedral>do you know an alternative to suchessfully create a restorable backup in a short time period
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04:18<@Rubidium>rsync
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04:24<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: did you try increasing the blocksize?
04:24<dihedral>actually no :-P
04:25<dihedral>was that a 'try that' or 'don't try that' hint
04:25<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: i don't see why that should hurt...
04:30<dihedral>hmm - does not take me over 3 M/s
04:30<dihedral>it's a start though
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04:53<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21800 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp:
04:53<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#3569]: under certain circumstances one could crash a competitor's
04:53<CIA-2>OpenTTD: train; take the lazy non-future proof version of the fix from the 1.0 branch as
04:53<CIA-2>OpenTTD: fixing the real bug is significantly more complex and might even break some
04:53<CIA-2>OpenTTD: backwards compatability if not done perfectly
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05:06<@Alberth>moin
05:06<dihedral>hello Alberth
05:06<andythenorth>moin
05:07<andythenorth>'moin' is contagious :P
05:09<@Terkhen>:)
05:12<Eddi|zuHause>it has been "thriving" over the last 50 or so years ;)
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05:44<Wolf01>hello
05:46<__ln__>night
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06:06<ZirconiumX>hello
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06:53<ZirconiumX>so which LordAro is the Lord Aro?
06:55*ZirconiumX is confused
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06:58<@planetmaker>hm... http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/51/ <-- if I now try to build a wind powerplant next to another existing one, the error message I get is 'object cannot be build. Land slopes in wrong direction'
06:58<@planetmaker>that's... somewhat not correct. Any way to change the error message via newgrf?
06:59<ZirconiumX>so that's the correct Lord Aro
06:59<@planetmaker>ZirconiumX: ZirconiumX ZirconiumX
06:59<@planetmaker>just to add a few random, annoying highlights
06:59<ZirconiumX>yes - but there isn't a ZirconiumX\_
07:00*ZirconiumX doesn't mind the highlights - isn't doing much anyway
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07:41<dihedral>planetmaker, that was just one highlight :-P
07:47<George>Do houses in arctic require food to grow if no food cargo is defined?
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07:50<@planetmaker>iirc, yes
07:50<@planetmaker>though it might then require just the cargo which food is replaced by.
07:51<@planetmaker>But you can re-define the town growth cargo via newgrf
07:51<@planetmaker>which you should, if you meddle with food
07:52<@planetmaker>the question only is: is it more a house newgrf thing or more and industry newgrf thing. Best is that both take care of it
08:05<Eddi|zuHause>you can give any cargo TE_FOOD
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>George: alpine has that problem, it removes food, and doesn't provide any replacement, so towns above snow line won't grow
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08:06<Eddi|zuHause>(unless you fund new buildings)
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08:37<@planetmaker>andythenorth: you may know some of those sprites ;-) http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=52396
08:37<andythenorth>planetmaker: :0
08:37<andythenorth>you should credit Zephyris for the turbines ;)
08:38<andythenorth>all I did was sort out the animation frames :)
08:38<@planetmaker>hm, did you? Hm... I thought it was all yours
08:38<andythenorth>no :)
08:38<andythenorth>easily fixed
08:38<@planetmaker>well. changed the posting
08:41<@planetmaker>also changed docs
08:42<@planetmaker>thanks for telling me :-) Credit shall be whom credit is due
09:07-!-ZirconiumX [561b9bc6@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
09:07*ZirconiumX goes source grabbing racing
09:10-!-kamnet [4cb171cd@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
09:10<kamnet>Question on opengrx+landscape, are the windmills supposed to face due-west into the wind?
09:13<dihedral>is that not normal?
09:13*ZirconiumX doesn't know
09:15<kamnet>I don't know either. Never been near a windmill of any kind myself, but I'd think that the blades would be lined up west-to-east.
09:15*ZirconiumX disagrees
09:16<ZirconiumX>the wind varies, so one moment the wind might be SE, the next it's E
09:16<frosch123>hint: windmill turn themself into the wind, they are not fixed
09:16<@planetmaker>kamnet: they're correct, if you consider the coal powerplant smoke
09:17<@planetmaker>and that smoke is what I consider the dominant wind direction in OpenTTD ;-)
09:17<kamnet>lol
09:17<@planetmaker>well. yes
09:18<CIA-2>OpenTTD: alberth * r21801 /trunk/src/object_gui.cpp: -Fix (r21772): Attach scrollbar to select matrix in object gui.
09:18<@planetmaker>check out the ECS newgrfs and you'll find that wind direction everywhere ;-)
09:19<kamnet>In ECS Vectors 1.0?
09:20<CIA-2>OpenTTD: smatz * r21802 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Cleanup (r2600): remove unused _vehicle_id_ctr_day
09:23<dihedral>planetmaker, and windsocks at the airfields
09:24<@planetmaker>dihedral: that's working in the reverse direction ;-)
09:24*dihedral bought a 500GB esata 2.5" hdd :-)
09:24<@planetmaker>but the flame of the refinery
09:24<dihedral>planetmaker, why would windsocks work in the reverse direction?
09:25<@planetmaker>just look at the graphics. They simply _are_. Not that it makes sense
09:25*kamnet fixed the windsocks, actually
09:25*ZirconiumX thinks life doesn't make sense
09:26<@planetmaker>yeah :-) But I didn't yet get around to fixing it in OpenGFX. And it was agreed that it should not be fixed in the TTD baseset
09:26<dihedral>it should be fixed in opengfx if you ask me :-P
09:26<@planetmaker>... yes, of course
09:26<dihedral>well, unless it gives sidewind to the runways :-P
09:26<dihedral>or lets planes start and land downwind :-D
09:27<@planetmaker>and as just said: kamnet even fixed the graphics so far. It needs *someone* to actually implement it
09:27<@planetmaker>and unfortunately there's currently only about one *someone* who actually codes OpenGFX, though there's sufficient sprites for at least two *someone*s
09:29<andythenorth>BAH
09:29<andythenorth>smoke for ships :(
09:32<andythenorth>Dan MacK drew a paddle steamer :)
09:32<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/paddle_steamer.png
09:32<kamnet>That looks nice!
09:34<andythenorth>needs smoke :)
09:36<frosch123>planetmaker: ask fred, maybe he helps out :p
09:36<andythenorth>can't fred code smoke instead?
09:37*ZirconiumX thinks the welders did a ba job of the smokestack
09:37<ZirconiumX>*bad
09:37<@planetmaker>uhm... is there a dent in the ship, andythenorth ?
09:38*ZirconiumX thinks they forgot how to do the sides as well
09:38<@planetmaker>it looks like there's a dent where the water(?) smoke(?) ends about mid-ship
09:39<ZirconiumX>the ship looks like a seabourne cursor
09:39<@SmatZ>nice, if you start a script by "$!/bin/bash" instead if "#!/bin/bash", it will start a new shell and you will wonder why the script doesn't work...
09:39<ZirconiumX>heh
09:40<ZirconiumX>have you heard the infamous UNIX rule
09:40<@SmatZ>I don't know :)
09:40<@Terkhen>:D
09:40<ZirconiumX>BTW in configure in the source, how do you give a path to the library?
09:41<ZirconiumX>UNIX believes you...Unfortunately
09:41<ZirconiumX>Let me demonstrate
09:41<@Terkhen>I don't remember, but it is listed at ./configure --help
09:41<ZirconiumX>if you writes the command
09:41<ZirconiumX>ls -al > file.txt
09:42<ZirconiumX>it does that
09:42<ZirconiumX>what if your finger slips?
09:42<ZirconiumX>ls -al < file.txt
09:42<ZirconiumX>you may get lucky
09:43<ZirconiumX>In BASH it gives up
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09:44<@SmatZ>:)
09:44*Alberth fails to see the problem
09:44<ZirconiumX>If you do
09:44<ZirconiumX>patch -p0 < file.diff
09:45<ZirconiumX>and slip
09:45<ZirconiumX>patch -p0 > file.diff
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09:45<@SmatZ>:D
09:45<@SmatZ>he probably tried to redirect something
09:45<@planetmaker>lalalala :-)
09:45-!-ZirconiumX [561b9bc6@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
09:45<@SmatZ>:P
09:46<@SmatZ>well, yes redirecting stdin instead of stdout can cause various problems
09:46<@SmatZ>including destroying your entire work
09:46<@Alberth>adding an extra space is much more fun :)
09:46<ZirconiumX>see Alberth
09:46<@Alberth>rm ./x* vs rm ./x * :)
09:46<@SmatZ>:)
09:47<@planetmaker>:-D
09:47<ZirconiumX>what about moving to a directory called budget backup
09:47*frosch123 once typed rm instead of cp
09:47-!-perk11 [~perk11@178.34.25.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:47<@planetmaker>:-P was not fun, eh?
09:47<ZirconiumX>but you have a precious file called budget?
09:47<frosch123>and wondered why the usb stick was empty later
09:47<@SmatZ>:D
09:47<ZirconiumX>rm budget backup
09:48<@Alberth>and I am always tempted to make a file called * in some one else home directory :)
09:48<frosch123>i only discovered it an hour later when examining the history on the other computer :)
09:48<@SmatZ>hehe
09:48<@Alberth>ZirconiumX: file-completion fixes that nicely
09:48<ZirconiumX>rm blows away budget, and leaves the useless file budget backup
09:48<dihedral>Alberth, \* ?
09:49<@Alberth>if you know your way around unix, yes
09:49*ZirconiumX has just hung BASH using the wrong redirection trick
09:49<dihedral>i had a file named -r ones :-P
09:49<@Alberth>but several newbies would first try rm * :)
09:49<dihedral>hehe
09:49<ZirconiumX>rmdir -r
09:49<ZirconiumX>lol
09:49<dihedral>rmdir??
09:49*Terkhen recommends suicide linux
09:49<@SmatZ>:)
09:50<ZirconiumX>ReMove DIRectory
09:50<@Alberth>rmdir has no -r option
09:50<@Terkhen>and IIRC it does not remove directories unless they are empty
09:50<@Alberth>yeah, way too much protection :)
09:51*ZirconiumX thought rmdir had a -r(ecursive) option
09:51<@planetmaker>hehe
09:51<@planetmaker>we know _that_
09:52<ZirconiumX>go to csh
09:52<ZirconiumX>cd ~god
09:52<ZirconiumX>:p
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09:52<ZirconiumX>csh: unknown user: god
09:53<@Alberth>zsh: no such user or named directory: god
09:53<dihedral>oh dear lord
09:53<ZirconiumX>doesn't work for bash
09:53<@planetmaker>it's only worrysome if you don't find god but devil
09:53<dihedral>i prefer going to ~superuser :-D
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09:54<dihedral>if there is a devil there is a god :-p
09:54<ZirconiumX>darwin is annoying
09:54<dihedral>why would that be
09:54<ZirconiumX>you have to do sudo su to get intos superuser mode
09:54<ZirconiumX>su has *always* failed when I try plain su
09:54<@Alberth>just a matter of configuring your system
09:55<dihedral>:-)
09:55<dihedral>what Alberth says
09:55<@planetmaker>:(){ :|:&};: <-- is a good bash command, too ;-)
09:55*ZirconiumX wonders what the superuser password is for a non superuser system
09:55<@Alberth>*
09:55<@Terkhen>root/root?
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09:55<dihedral>eh? what?
09:55<@planetmaker>ZirconiumX: there's no such system...
09:56<ZirconiumX>yes
09:56<ZirconiumX>csh
09:56<@SmatZ>:-)
09:56*dihedral is amused :-D
09:56<@planetmaker>:-)
09:56<ZirconiumX> /(-
09:56<@Terkhen>isn't that a shell?
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09:56<@planetmaker>Terkhen: it is
09:56<dihedral>what os do you have? - bash!
09:56<ZirconiumX>He sells C shells on the C shore
09:56<@planetmaker>emacs, dihedral !
09:57<@Terkhen>oh :P
09:57<@planetmaker>I'm just lacking a good editor.
09:57<ZirconiumX>I use pico
09:57<ZirconiumX>sorry nano
09:57<@Alberth>vim! :)
09:57<dihedral>vim
09:57<dihedral>nano - pfft
09:57<dihedral>fte is interesting too, very small
09:57*ZirconiumX wouldn't use ed if his life depended on it
09:58*ZirconiumX woulduse EDLIN instead
09:58<@planetmaker>easy saying, if it doesn't
09:58<ZirconiumX>EDLIN is a DOS editor
09:58<ZirconiumX>macs don't run dos
09:58<ZirconiumX>:p
09:59<@SmatZ>you can run dosbox
09:59<dihedral>dosbox
09:59<@SmatZ>haha :P
09:59<dihedral>grr SmatZ you beat me to it
09:59<dihedral>^^
09:59<@planetmaker>:-)
09:59<ZirconiumX>csh again
09:59<ZirconiumX>make ' ' bang ' ' with gun
09:59<ZirconiumX>make: don't know how to make target
10:00<ZirconiumX>http://www.tbi.univie.ac.at/~ronke/FUN/unix.html
10:00*planetmaker wonders whether "python -c 'while 1: __import__("os").fork()'" will have any effect on ZirconiumX's computer :-P
10:00*Alberth guesses it does
10:01<ZirconiumX>IT slows it down
10:01<ZirconiumX>but luckily it quits afterwards
10:01-!-andythenorth [~andy@78.150.156.82] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
10:01*ZirconiumX bashes bash
10:02*dihedral laughs :-P
10:02<ZirconiumX>hah
10:02<dihedral>try the following
10:02<ZirconiumX>bash bash
10:02<ZirconiumX>bash: /bin/bash: cannot execute binary file
10:02<ZirconiumX>can't open bash
10:03<dihedral>sudo su -c "echo 1 > /dev/kmem"
10:03<dihedral>:-D
10:03<dihedral>hehehe
10:03<@planetmaker>doesn't look healthy ;-)
10:03<dihedral>and then i'd very quickly remove power from the computer
10:03<dihedral>it's not
10:03<dihedral>far from it
10:03<dihedral>if ZirconiumX times out - he tried it
10:03*ZirconiumX daren't as it contains su
10:04<@planetmaker>hm, ZirconiumX you got 10.4,x right? so, on ppc, they didn't have yet bash, but tsh or alike?
10:04<dihedral>if that is all that is stopping you - give me a few moments :-P
10:04<@Alberth>just sudo would be enough?
10:04<dihedral>planetmaker, it's bash - or a version thereof
10:04<@planetmaker>?
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10:04<ZirconiumX>10.2 used tcsh
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10:05<@planetmaker>dihedral: IIRC the default bash is not bash on 10.4
10:05<@Alberth>oh joy
10:05<dihedral>i have 10.4
10:05<@planetmaker>at least I just had to fix something on the macbook of my japanese collegue - and I was flabergasted at the shell...
10:05<dihedral>hmmm - perhaps i changed it to bash
10:05<ZirconiumX>10.3 becomes BASH
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10:05<@planetmaker>well, maybe she changed default, but given her skills with the machine, I doubt it.
10:05<dihedral>well it is a little different
10:06<dihedral>those who you doubt to change something, are quite good at doing so without even knowing it
10:06*ZirconiumX is annoyed
10:06<@planetmaker>he, also true, dihedral ;-)
10:06*ZirconiumX wants fish on darwin
10:06*ZirconiumX is a noob because of it
10:06<dihedral>ZirconiumX, then shake your hdd while its running - there, you do not need sudo su for that :-p
10:07*ZirconiumX knows how to fix this
10:07*ZirconiumX puts computer in pond, grabs rod and waits
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10:08<@planetmaker>now you all annoyed DorpsGek ;-)
10:09<kamnet>Hm, for my bauxite mine, should I have a loader right at the mine, or should I use HEQS to haul the bauxite 20-30 tiles to a loading station?
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10:09<ZirconiumX>right at the mine
10:10<kamnet>Trying to decide how much land transforming I want to do to fit a loader in there
10:11<@planetmaker>none ;-)
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10:12<frosch123>http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/diffs/fs_eddi.diff <- interested in finishing that? too tedious for me...
10:12<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: ^^
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10:12<kamnet>The mine is nestled in a small valley next to a chemical plant, a furniture factory and a farm
10:12<ZirconiumX>all the more better
10:13<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not really the "finishing" guy...
10:13<kamnet>I've got 5 tiles right next to the farm where I could squeeze one in, but then the train has to go on a two-tile incline to get out of the valley
10:13<Eddi|zuHause>and i'm not here either...
10:13<frosch123>well.. you can play with that diff, but the first user will file a bug report about the news message :)
10:14<kamnet>And then 8 tiles away from there I have another 5-tile space where I can put a loader, but the train has to climb a two-tile incline to get to it
10:14<kamnet>But 20 tiles away it's plenty of level land
10:15<ZirconiumX>add 2 locos
10:15<Chris_Booth>or buy more powerful locos or flatern the land
10:16<Chris_Booth>or turn on realistic acceleration if it is off
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10:17<kamnet>Or I could use industrial trams to get it out of the valley...
10:18<ZirconiumX>using transfer, you can lose some money
10:18<kamnet>I'm playing more for looks than profit.
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10:19<ZirconiumX>getting round the mountain will certainly be realistic
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10:21<dihedral>why people do not get that 'realistic' does not exist in OpenTTD
10:21<kamnet>Or I can... dynamite this steel mill that's in a place where I'll never be able to realistically get metal to, re-route a roadway and then be able to find space to put my loader and run my rail lines.
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10:35<kamnet>100% realism doesn't exist, but "more realistic" certainly isn't out of the question
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10:36<kamnet>Of course if I wanted to be more realistic then I'd just build rails all over the place like they do in real life and not give any concern to the environment :D
10:36<@planetmaker>but 'more realistic' is not a design goal. Only 'more fun' or 'easier to understand'
10:37<CIA-2>OpenTTD: terkhen * r21803 /trunk/src/ (13 files in 3 dirs): -Cleanup: Remove unnecessary semicolons.
10:37<kamnet>As a design for the game mechanics itself, no. But for game play, it's realistic.
10:38<Zuu>kamnet: By the way your music pack is really nice :-)
10:38<kamnet>Well, don't thank me, thank Scott Joplin... well, if he was living.
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10:50<DanMacK>Hey all
10:50-!-luckz [~lkz@luckz.de] has joined #openttd
10:50<kamnet>Hey hey
10:51<CIA-2>OpenTTD: smatz * r21804 /trunk/src/ (console_cmds.cpp vehicle.cpp vehicle_func.h): -Remove [FS#4409]: the 'stopall' console command, as its functionality was broken. Group start/stop commands can be used instead
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10:58<CIA-2>OpenTTD: terkhen * r21805 /trunk/src/ (dock_gui.cpp table/sprites.h): -Codechange: Correct a typo.
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11:08<dihedral>if you ask me, 'more realistic' is silly, as a game defines it's own 'realism'
11:09<dihedral>'building realisticly' is merely a way to describe what one favours
11:16<frosch123>how does dihedralish building look like?
11:16<@Terkhen>it look dihedralish
11:16<frosch123>or dihedralic?
11:17<Prof_Frink>Dihydraulic?
11:17<@Terkhen>dihedralistic
11:18<@Rubidium>frosch123: two "towers" with the same base on a diverging path?
11:19<@Terkhen>:D
11:20<frosch123>sounds dangerous
11:24<@Terkhen>http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/patches/index.php?source=buoy_typo.diff <--- should I avoid changing ancient changelogs?
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11:24<@Rubidium>http://www.faqs.org/photo-dict/photofiles/list/3161/13279suspension_bridge.jpg <- you might classify that as an upside down dihedral
11:24<frosch123>Terkhen: they were changed numerous times
11:24<@Rubidium>Terkhen: nah, I fix typos and such in the changelog all the time
11:24<@Terkhen>ok :)
11:26<dihedral>upside down dihedral?
11:26<dihedral>are you referring to an 'anhedral' :-P
11:27<@Rubidium>pff... ;)
11:27<CIA-2>OpenTTD: terkhen * r21806 /trunk/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: Correct additional appearances of the same typo.
11:27<@Rubidium>I seem to remember seeing a dihedral bridge, just can't remember where
11:29<dihedral>you can see dihedrals all over the place
11:29<dihedral>esp in aerospace :-)
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11:31<dihedral>welcome Adambean
11:31<Adambean>hi
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11:36<dihedral>what linux tool do people in this channel use for backup
11:37<@Rubidium>dihedral: "Only wimps use tape backup: real men just upload their important stuff on ftp, and let the rest of the world mirror it ;)"
11:38<dihedral>lol
11:38<dihedral>i have a tape drive :-D
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11:38<dihedral>but i do not use it currently
11:38<@Rubidium>though... rsync
11:39<@planetmaker>dihedral: a custom-written shell script with tar and cp works wonders - called via crontab
11:39<dihedral>i have no crontab on my laptop :-)
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11:54<fjb>dihedral: dump and restore.
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11:57<dihedral>i should add, mounted filesystem :-P
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11:59<dihedral>for dump / restore or dd i could always boot from another medium - but i'd like to avoid having to boot something other than the currently running system
12:01<Zuu>hmm, when I've joined a MP game using beta3, I can't see the GRF parameters of eg. BaseCosts Mod.
12:02<Zuu>Shouldn't I be able to have read access to them trough the NewGRF dialog?
12:04<dihedral>heh
12:06<Zuu>By the look of the railways on the #openttdcoop welcome server it looks like terraforming is expansive. :-)
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12:07<@Alberth>yeah, expanding dirt costs money
12:08<@planetmaker>Zuu: give it a shot. But: yes. And that's not the only expensive thing there ;-)
12:10<@planetmaker>Zuu: yes, the parameter view is problematic, I agree. You could give http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/show_param.diff a shot - but I'm not satisfied with it yet
12:13<@planetmaker>and... actually I wanted to ask Alberth for advice there... ^
12:13<@planetmaker>I fail to disable the widgets in the parameter window, it seems I'm missing something obvious. But... where?
12:14<Zuu>At first glance the code looked good to me, but aparently there is some issues.
12:15<@planetmaker>well. The widget disabled state doesn't show. Which I'd like to see added before I commit it
12:15<@planetmaker>i.e. all widgets should show as disabled in the parameter window when showing without edit rights
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12:16<Zuu>Hmm, I don't see you setting the widget disabled state in the constructor.
12:16<Zuu>based on the "enabled" member.
12:16<Zuu>But I have so far only read the patch, not applied it to trunk.
12:17<@planetmaker>well, yes, the patch does not contain anything in that respect now. As it failed to work whereever I tried to add it. The most ovious place to me is "OnInvalidateData"
12:18<@Alberth>does this->SetWidgetDirty(GRFPAR_WIDGET_NUMPAR_DEC); this->SetWidgetDirty(..._INC); help?
12:19<Zuu>But the code in OnInvalidateData only runs if action 14 is not present. So if you have action14 present, the code will not run.
12:20<@Alberth>OnInvalidateData() is used for notifying changes while the window is open, does 'edit' change?
12:20<@planetmaker>no, it doesn't change.
12:21*Alberth looks for a place to apply the patch
12:21<@planetmaker>There's no InvalidateData function - which is called on init.
12:22<Zuu>btw, is the patch for any specific revision or is simply last revision good enough?
12:22<@planetmaker>maybe I need to define that
12:22<@planetmaker>Zuu: works for trunk here
12:22<@Alberth>'trunk' is normally last revision
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12:36<@Alberth>'show parameters' in the newgrf gui also doesn't seem to be disabled when no newgrf is selected
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12:36<@planetmaker>yes
12:36<@planetmaker>for similar reasons
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12:48<Zuu>As for the record, visual studio fails to compile current trunk + the show_params patch.
12:48<@planetmaker>oh?
12:49<Zuu>Compile log: http://pastebin.com/scZSFkay
12:50<__ln__>I see only linking errors.
12:50<Zuu>Yes
12:50<Zuu>And they don't even look related to the patch.
12:51<Zuu>I would suspect a new essential pack, but I've already upgraded to 4.0.
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12:51<@Rubidium>did you recently update some libraries or something?
12:52<@planetmaker>doesn't look related indeed
12:52<Zuu>No. But it was quite some time since last I compiled OpenTTD.
12:52<@planetmaker>he
12:52<@Rubidium>in any case, lets see what my MSVC says about it
12:52<@Rubidium>(without patch)
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12:54<Zuu>... recompiling without patch ..
12:54<fjb>"<dihedral> i should add, mounted filesystem :-P" <- dump -L (live file system) on FreeBSD
12:55<@Rubidium>without patch it compiles fine
12:56<dihedral>fjb, dumping with dump or dd on a mounted partition / disk is idiotic!!
12:56<fjb>Why is it idiotic?
12:56<@Terkhen>I can compile trunk fine with MSVC 2010 too
12:56<Eddi|zuHause><dihedral> i have no crontab on my laptop :-) <-- init scripts work as well... can decide whether run on startup or on shutdown
12:56<@planetmaker>I don't think the patch causes trouble
12:57<Zuu>I get linking errors also without patch, so I guess my building environment is broken for OpenTTD at the moment.
12:57<@Rubidium>just rebuild the whole project first ;)
12:58<dihedral>fjb, you do understand how these things work, right?
12:58<@planetmaker>But I'm still lost, why setting the disabled state in OnInvalidateData has no effect... - it's called in both, NewGRFGUI as well as parameter window in the constructor.
12:58<fjb>dihedral: I do. Do you? So why is it idiotic?
12:59<andythenorth>the paddle steamer is modelled from this (but with two funnels) http://lh5.ggpht.com/_7Y1_ca7A9ew/SlEVHH9bN9I/AAAAAAAACW8/59VHJ7g-zss/DSC00378.JPG
12:59<dihedral>because there is a large risk of data loss
12:59<dihedral>where 'large' is relative to the purpose of creating such a disk image
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13:00<fjb>dihedral: There is no risk, because dump -L takes a file system snapshot first and dumps that snapshot.
13:00<dihedral>the possibiliy of one app writing to the disk and nother app trying to read block for block and making an exact copy of the drive ...
13:00<dihedral>oh my word :-P
13:00<@Alberth>planetmaker: why are there two SNGRFS_SET_PARAMETERS widgets?
13:01<dihedral>fjb, thank you for your hint, and no think you ;-)
13:01<@Rubidium>the close button doesn't seem to work either
13:01<fjb>dihedral: So no risk but clever tool.
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: file system snapshots don't tend to fit into any kind of memory
13:02<@Rubidium>planetmaker: the "Remove" button has become some 50% bigger as well
13:02<@Alberth>just make enough swap :)
13:02<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: The snapshot resides on disk. Changed sectors get new allocated.
13:02<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: copy-on-write
13:04<@planetmaker>hm, two? they are in one version or the other of the window. Can't I do that?
13:04<@planetmaker>the other widgets seem to follow that, too. Or... did I mess that up?
13:04<@Alberth>afaik always all parts get loaded.
13:05<@planetmaker>Hm... then that might explain one thing
13:05<@Alberth>rendering follows the tree, while widget-accessing directly follows an array with pointers
13:06<Zuu>Rubidium: Full recompile solved the issue. Thanks.
13:06<@Alberth>so the array should contain a hidden widget :)
13:06<Zuu>Now if only generating the release exe file could complete as well :-D
13:06<@Rubidium>yeah, LTO takes long
13:06<@Alberth>the debug version is ebough :)
13:06<@Alberth>*enough
13:06<@Rubidium>but that's why it's LTO
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13:07<Zuu>For this patch I guess using a debug build is fast enough.
13:08<@planetmaker>that seems to go probably a long way, Alberth :-)
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13:14<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21807 /trunk/src/ (vehicle.cpp vehicle_base.h): -Codechange: split automatic order removal into a separate function (fonsinchen)
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>what's the meaning of "Plan: normal" in "svn info"?
13:16<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21808 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix: don't create automatic orders when there are no manual orders (fonsinchen)
13:17<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: plan?
13:17<@Rubidium>did you try to translate something back to English?
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: no, this is the german text
13:18<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: http://svn.haxx.se/users/archive-2004-12/0659.shtml ?
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: aha.
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13:19<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21809 /trunk/src/ (order_cmd.cpp vehicle.cpp): -Fix [FS#4404]: remove unreached automatic orders as well when reaching an ordered waypoint or depot (fonsinchen)
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: but i never noticed this entry before
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13:39<@peter1138>quick check
13:40<@peter1138>if i do fopen(file, "w") then fclose right after it
13:40<@peter1138>i'll get a 0 byte file, right?
13:40<@Rubidium>I'd expect that to happen
13:40<@Alberth>yes
13:42<Zuu>planetmaker: I also noticed that the SHow Parameters button only work in loaded games, not from the load dialog.
13:42<@planetmaker>ho. I'll look at that, too. Thanks
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r21810 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: croatian - 2 changes by VoyagerOne
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: estonian - 2 changes by notAbot
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: italian - 2 changes by lorenzodv
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: serbian - 4 changes by etran
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: spanish - 3 changes by Terkhen
13:46<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21811 /trunk/src/lang/croatian.txt: -Fix: guess what...
13:50<@peter1138>thanks
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14:45<andythenorth>Terkhen: articulated ships?
14:45<andythenorth>:P
14:46<kamnet>tugboats!
14:47<V453000>flying ships?
14:47<V453000>wait airships are already there :(
14:48<kamnet>If we ever get NewGRF Airports then we could possibly get ships that land on water
14:48<kamnet>planes that land on water, even
14:49<__ln__>how can i build an airship?
14:49<@planetmaker>called plimp? In a hangar.
14:49<@planetmaker>:-P
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14:50<Eddi|zuHause>you can't build airships in the game. you can only buy vehicles, not build them
14:50<__ln__>fine, how do i buy one?
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>unless you make an object/station grf with a stationary airship
14:50<kamnet>build an airport, click on the hangar at the airport
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: av8 should have them
14:53<__ln__>testing
14:55<CIA-2>OpenTTD: alberth * r21812 /trunk/src/widget.cpp: -Fix (r21754): Don't try to scroll the matrix widget to position -1.
14:57<__ln__>ok, there it flies
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>wrong
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>it floats
14:57<__ln__>ah
14:58<__ln__>wasn't available if starting year was set to 1992, though
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>commercial airship travel stopped around 1942 or so
14:59<DanMacK>You're using Aviator's aircraft set I assume?
15:00<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: then why is Concorde still there if i set the year to 2010...
15:00<__ln__>DanMacK: yes
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: ask that the author
15:01<DanMacK>it may be a carry-over. It should be gone by '06 but might hang aropund a bit longer
15:02<__ln__>commercial concorde flights ended in 2000.
15:02<DanMacK>they did... but TTD isn't exactly RL ;)
15:04<__ln__>i witnessed a genuine zeppelin in the sky something like six years ago.
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>most airships nowadays are blimps rather than zeppelins
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>the difference being that blimps have an inflatable hull, while zeppelins have a fixed hull
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>blimps are basically powered balloons
15:07<__ln__>can't tell which one it was, but it was manufactured by Zeppelin
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15:14<__ln__>Terkhen: as i look at spanish.txt, i'm seeing dozens of sentences ending with '!' but not having a corresponding '¡' in the begin.
15:15<@Terkhen>andythenorth: that's complicated :P
15:15<@Terkhen>__ln__: good point, we omit the ¡ so frequently that I'm used to ignoring it
15:16<@Terkhen>I'll review them later
15:17<__ln__>thanks
15:18<@Terkhen>thanks for telling me :)
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15:21<andythenorth>Terkhen: is it more complicated than the bazillion copy-and-paste operations I have to do to make tow boats + barges in photoshop?
15:21<andythenorth>:P
15:21<@Terkhen>I don't know, I'm happily ignorant of how complicated that is
15:21<andythenorth>he
15:21<andythenorth>it's not complicated
15:22<andythenorth>it's just pointlessly boring
15:22<@Terkhen>but it is probably more tedious :P
15:22<andythenorth>at least coding is a bit interesting
15:23<CIA-2>OpenTTD: terkhen * r21813 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4411](r21720): Prevent crash when displaying the owner view.
15:23<@Terkhen>^ except when you break stuff
15:23<andythenorth>extra interesting then
15:24<@Terkhen>at this pace, I'm going to commit more fixes to r21720 than anything else
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>new meaning of "commit early, commit often" :p
15:26<@Terkhen>:P
15:34<Eddi|zuHause># Well it's gonna be different now that I'm gone
15:34<Eddi|zuHause># To shot some aliens for kingdom and glory
15:34<Eddi|zuHause># For welfare and for life itself
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15:38*andythenorth observes a small problem with canal
15:38<andythenorth>the boat is drawn over the fences
15:38<andythenorth>this is a bit wrong :P
15:40<@SmatZ>FS#119
15:41<__ln__>np: Leonard Nimoy - Ballad of Bilbo Baggins
15:42<andythenorth>so the canal 'bank' sprite is drawn behind the boat
15:42<andythenorth>even though it is a separate sprite
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: not particularly the best piece of music on the planet :p
15:42<andythenorth>or am I wrong :P
15:43*andythenorth looks for canal sprites
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15:43<andythenorth>hmm
15:44<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: at least he sings, unlike Shatner on the same disc. :)
15:44*andythenorth wonders how the sprite sorter works
15:44*andythenorth will regret this :(
15:45<@SmatZ>yup
15:45<__ln__>np: William Shatner - Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: the strange thing is, although i have heard nimoy sing this in the past, i can't remember how it sounded. when i try to think about it, it sounds more like rudi carell
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>(rudi carell is some weird dutch guy who somehow made it to fame on german television as singer/comedian)
15:47<@Terkhen>I have only heard him in the simpsons, and dubbed
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15:50<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: apart from that song, i only heard nimoys real voice on fringe
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15:56<__ln__>he's on fringe?
15:59*andythenorth ponders
15:59<andythenorth>there's no way to keep wide ships out of canals :|
15:59<andythenorth>eeees a problem
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: yeah, like three episodes or so
16:03<Wolf01>uhm, waypoints don't show the selection toolbar
16:09<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: i'm still at s01e05 or something, should watch more.
16:09<andythenorth>if someone produces alternate canal graphics that are narrower than ttd / opengfx, they're dumb yes/no?
16:11<@Rubidium>I'd say they're not dumb, after all they managed to create a NewGRF which is probably a measure to tell someone is not dumb
16:12<@Rubidium>though I see no problems with narrower (canal graphics)
16:12<@Rubidium>(narrower canal) graphics might be a problem though
16:13<@Rubidium>Lakie: what bit 4 were you talking about exactly?
16:14<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r21814 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Fix/Add: Check GRF version from action 8, and disallow usage of GRFs with versions above 7.
16:14<andythenorth>let me put it differently :)
16:14<andythenorth>canals which are not as wide are an instant problem w.r.t to boats in FISH
16:14<andythenorth>so I'm choosing not to worry about that :)
16:15<Lakie>cb157, var 10?
16:16<@Rubidium>that contains the tile slope
16:16<Lakie>Aye, bit 4 being steep.
16:16<@Rubidium>hmm, yeah I guess so
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16:18<Lakie>Its ok, wally pointed out that if one has a cb157 which just returns ok, you can build on steep slopes, so I presumed that bit would need to be in the var
16:18<andythenorth>just like real life, turns out locks are really the limiting factor on ship size :P
16:18<andythenorth>so at last, the game is realistic :P
16:20<Lakie>I don't mind that so much, so I just cloned the behaviour.
16:21<Lakie>(bit 4 would have already been past in ttdpatch anyway)
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17:41<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21815 /trunk/src/pathfinder/yapf/yapf_costrail.hpp: -Fix [FS#3908]: [YAPF] Apply a pathfinder penalty for back of one-way path signals so those aren't preferred over other possibilities
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17:51<CIA-2>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r21816 /trunk/ (known-bugs.txt src/rail_cmd.cpp): -Fix [FS#4378] (r14012): Allow dragging of combo signals (again)
18:00<Wolf01>'night
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18:24<@Terkhen>good night
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18:30<dihedral>@logs
18:30<@DorpsGek>dihedral: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd
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18:40<dihedral>/*grf_version < 2 || */grf_version > 7 <- what does version 2 and 7 define?
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18:51<__ln__>has anyone felt lately that in the Mac version both the system mouse cursor and the OTTD's own are visible at the same time?
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18:59<Eddi|zuHause>isn't that one of the known bugs?
19:00<__ln__>i have feeling it wasn't always that way
19:01<@Rubidium>dihedral: the first and last grf versions that TTDPatch supports?
19:01<@Rubidium>wasn't that system mouse cursor bug recently fixed
19:02<dihedral>Rubidium, thanks, did not realize that
19:03<__ln__>found 0.4.5 on my hard disk, and it is not suffering from that bug.
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19:05<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: well, that was when we actually had a maintainer
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19:07<__ln__>compiling trunk now to test
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19:27<__ln__>no, it's not fixed atm.
19:30<@SmatZ>OSX is so random!
19:31<__ln__>i'll try with a semi-recent revision, say 21000...
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19:38<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: how about you see the changelog about osx-related changes?
19:41<__ln__>that sounds more fun than the binary search approach with a 30-minute compile time per revision.
19:42<Eddi|zuHause>don't you mean 30 seconds? :p
19:43<__ln__>no, minutes
19:43<Eddi|zuHause>:p ... real 0m37.604s user 2m59.278s sys 0m10.003s
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19:44<Eddi|zuHause>(it's probably slightly faster when the files are already in the disk cache)
19:45<__ln__>i have another computer that compiles in roughly 30 seconds, but it's not a mac.
19:45<Eddi|zuHause>real 0m35.478s user 2m58.934s sys 0m10.014s
19:46<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: hm... there was a solution for that... let me check
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19:47<__ln__>setting up a full cross-compiling environment is going to take more than 30 minutes
19:48<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: http://en.opensuse.org/Icecream
19:48<Eddi|zuHause>Supported platforms
19:48<Eddi|zuHause> - OS X
19:51<__ln__>hmm, good to know. though in this case a cross-compiling environment would still need to be set up.
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19:51<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: from that page, setting up the actual cross compiling environment only contains the command "icecc --build-native"
19:57<__ln__>fascinating
19:57<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: i have not actually tested it, maybe i misread things
19:58<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: the section "Using icecream in heterogeneous environments "
20:08<__ln__>that's unlikely to work when the two machines are of incompatible architectures.
20:08*DanMacK yawns
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20:17<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: i don't know the magic involved
20:19<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: but it never mentions anywhere that it has to be same architecture
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20:23<__ln__>no, but it would require magic in amounts that only Penn&Teller + David Copperfield + Gandalf together could offer, if a PPC-only Mach-O gcc-binary was tarred and then run on an i686 Linux.
20:26<__ln__>@commit 21578
20:26<@DorpsGek>__ln__: Commit by planetmaker :: r21578 /trunk/src/video/cocoa (6 files) (2010-12-21 16:05:25 UTC)
20:26<@DorpsGek>__ln__: -Fix [FS#2585]: [OSX] A double mouse cursor was shown under certain circumstances (based on patch by matheweis)
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20:27<__ln__>Funny, that exact commit *breaks* the thing, makes two cursors visible.
20:27<Eddi|zuHause>that's pretty much what i suspected ;)
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---Logclosed Sun Jan 16 00:00:29 2011