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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-01-18

---Logopened Tue Jan 18 00:00:35 2011
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01:49<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:37<kamnet>OK I'm stumped. Anybody know how to section Action0Airport in NFO? :D
03:39<kamnet>er, how to set the action, even
03:40*kamnet thinks Yexo is hiding out on me
03:40<@Yexo>have you ever written nfo before?
03:41<kamnet>From scratch? No I've been making slight modifications to a few other works and learning as I've needed it. In this case I need to set an earlier introduction date for the heliport.
03:41<@planetmaker>I stil hold up that you'd get faster results, if you *tried* to do it in NML
03:42<@planetmaker>you seem to have the same problem with both NFO and NML. So why go the complicated path?
03:42<@planetmaker>Why not go the path where an example exists?
03:43<@Yexo>-1 * -1 00 0D 02 01 ID 08 02 0c \w1930 \wxFFFF <- that should set the introduction date of the heliport to 1930
03:43<@Yexo>completely untested though
03:44<kamnet>Ooh, I wasn't far off then :-)
03:44<@Yexo>do you have nforenum?
03:52<kamnet>Is there a specific station ID number for the heliport?
03:56<kamnet>nforenum is spitting back this error:
03:56<kamnet>/!!Error (63): Expected 1 more properties. 2 * 7 00 0D 02 01 00 08 02 // OC \w1930 \wxFFFF
03:58<@Yexo>everything after the "//" is treated as a comment
03:58<@Yexo>so nforenum just reads " 2 * 7 00 0D 02 01 00 08 02"
03:58<kamnet>nforenum is commenting it out. I'm entering it as
03:58<@Yexo>take a look at the action0 wiki page, the error is very clear
03:58<kamnet> 2 * 7 00 0D 02 01 00 08 02 OC \w1930 \wxFFFF
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03:59<@Yexo>nforenum doesn't comment that out here
04:01<kamnet>OK. You can now laugh at me.... I just realized I was typing O C instead of 0 C
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04:05<kamnet>And now nforenum comes out right, grfcodec comes out right... and no early intro date. Hrm.
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04:07<dihedral>good morning
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04:08<@planetmaker>moin dihedral
04:10<kamnet>Hm. Strange. I switched my date out from 1930 to 1900, now it work. And switching back to 1930, still works... :-/
04:10<kamnet>And good morning dihedral
04:10<dihedral>o/ :-)
04:11<@planetmaker>kamnet, just did not update the (running) game? Or started with old version? Happens :-)
04:11<@peter1138>mmm, 2.2GB coredump
04:12<dihedral>ouch ^^
04:13*dihedral started work on a new autonightly thing
04:13<@peter1138>and with 2.6's crappy io, loadavg went up to 11 when writing it ;p
04:14<dihedral>i think i'd need about 10s for writing 2.2GB :-P
04:14<@peter1138>took about 8 minutes
04:14<@peter1138>i have no idea why :(
04:14<@peter1138>i mean, i have 4GB ram
04:14<dihedral>had a look at iotop?
04:14<kamnet>Thank you Yexo for the help :-)
04:14<kamnet>Now let's see if I can master layouts on my own
04:15<dihedral>i did when making a tar archive of my /home
04:15<dihedral>200MB/s read + 200MB/s write :-D
04:15<@peter1138>yeah well
04:15<@peter1138>my desktop machine became unreponsive when creating a 40GB virtualbox drive...
04:15<@peter1138>due to iowait :S
04:15<@peter1138>it's like dma doesn't get used these days or something...
04:16<dihedral>i consider SSD worth the extra cash
04:17<dihedral>i notice a huge difference when grepping through openttd's source on a normal hdd, compared to a ramdisk
04:17<dihedral>on my ssd that difference is not worth the effort
04:18<@peter1138>oh, you have SSD... hehe
04:18<dihedral>i am still amazed at it's speed :-P
04:20<@peter1138>its !
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04:40<kamnet>Alright so if I'm reading this right, airport layout of 0A 01 04 64 32 *SHOULD* make a airport with 1 layout, 4 bytes, that is 64 pixels long by 32 wide, yes?
04:42<z-MaTRiX_nonidentified>isnt it hexadecimal?
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04:55<Hirundo>kamnet: I'd guess layout dimensions are in tiles, not pixels
04:58<kamnet>So 0A 01 04 01 02 ?
05:00<Hirundo>Are you looking at ?
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05:02<Hirundo>Format, as I read it, is this: 0A <num-layouts> <total-size> <rotation> (<xoffs> <yoffs> <tile>)*n 0 80
05:04<Hirundo>there is no xsize or ysize in there, you just have to specify tile (0, 0) and (0, 1), possibly for various rotations
05:04<kamnet>Aha! That makes much more sense to me. :-)
05:05<kamnet>I'm interpreting xoffs and yoffs as the offset from the northern-most corner of the tile.
05:06<kamnet>so xoffs and yoffs is the number of tiles?
05:07<Hirundo>xoffs/yoffs are the offsets from the northernmost tile for said tile
05:08<kamnet>And now I'm back to confused :-)
05:08<Hirundo>A layout defines a series of tiles
05:09<Hirundo>For each tile, you specify the offset (x/y) and what tile type to put there
05:10<kamnet>and how do I know what tile type to use?
05:10<Hirundo>There is a separate entity 'airporttile' that you can use to define tile graphics etc., or you can use the original airport tiles
05:11<kamnet>where do I find that at?
05:13<Hirundo>If you want to define your own tiles, you'll need plus action3/2/1 to define graphics
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05:14<Hirundo>I pasted a list of default tiles here: , there seems no documentation about that unfortunately
05:15<@planetmaker>same as industry layouts and tiles
05:15<@planetmaker>and they're documented afaik, and examples exist as well.
05:15<@planetmaker>(e.g. FIRS)
05:16<Hirundo>Is there a documented list of default AP tiles out there?
05:17<@planetmaker>not that I know
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05:17<@planetmaker>but it's moderately easy to lookup all base set sprites:
05:18<@planetmaker>So I'm not sure it needs more documentation than looking at a base set.
05:18<Hirundo>How does sprite ID map to tile ID?
05:18<@planetmaker>(mind that the link I pasted is HUGE) as it contains the whole base set
05:19<@planetmaker>uhm, in a layout... can't you specify there a sprite ID directly?
05:19<Hirundo>no, you define an airport tile ID :)
05:19<kamnet>is that what "oldtile" is?
05:20<@planetmaker>but maybe you made my newgrf experience too cozy ;-) ... I just defined a layout, added some ttdsprites and was set ;-)
05:20<Hirundo>didn't you define an airport tile somewhere?
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05:21<@planetmaker> <-- I only played around with that so far
05:22<@planetmaker>and well, yes, there it defines tiles. But then one "just" says to re-use existing ttdsprites and one is set.
05:22<kamnet>So say I want to use airport grass, that looks like the sprite# is 2643. So I'd just pop that number in there?
05:24<Hirundo>no, that won't even work because you need a byte :) I guess planetmaker spoiled you with his sprite discussion
05:24<@planetmaker>meh. sorry
05:24<Hirundo>kamnet: what do you want to show on that tile ?
05:26<kamnet>I want to replace the 1x1 heliport with a 2x1 airship mast, the only thing on it is the mast that sits near the eastern edge of the 2nd tile.
05:27<@planetmaker> <-- only airport sprites, btw
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05:29<Hirundo>Do you need new sprites for that, and if so, do you have those?
05:29<kamnet>Yes, I have the sprite
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05:33<Hirundo>ok, you'll first need to define an airport tile and associate graphics with that
05:40<kamnet>and that would be property 09 ?
05:45<Hirundo>Airport tiles are separate 'entities' from an NFO point of view, see
05:47<supermop>good morning
05:48<kamnet>I don't undertand this section at all.
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05:57<dihedral>join the club :-P
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06:06<kamnet>And now I'm getting internal server errors on ttdpatch wiki. So I guess I'll leave this for another day.
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06:19<Hirundo>NFO is hard, the wiki describes exactly what each individual byte does but doesn't tell you what you actually need to do
06:20<@peter1138>that's because what you need to do depends on what you want to do
06:29<dihedral>i like that one, peter1138 :-)
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06:34<@peter1138>ah ha
06:35<@peter1138>paperless direct debit requires you to send the customer... a letter...
06:38<@Rubidium>sounds like the marketing department has been shuffling words
06:38<@Rubidium>less paper direct debit requires...
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07:05<dihedral> <- lol :-) was looking for an error message and hit the nick 'yorick' ;_P:
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08:18<WargH>Hi, I just switched from ttdpatch to openttd. I'm not sure which AI to download. Any suggestions? I would like for it to be able to use all kinds of transport, or as many as the AI is good at using, and make a good profit so it's challenging to compete against.
08:20<Ammler>if you don't get answers here, check tt-forums openttd->general->ai
08:24<@planetmaker>WargH, the only possible answer is: test a few. It all depends also on the map (newgrfs, mountains, water content, town and industry density) how well one single AI instance will do. There's no such thing as general advice. Read up in the forums, in particular the NoAI subforum.
08:25*Hirundo was about to write the same advice as above
08:25<@planetmaker>There are a few threads on "Battle Royal" which compare different AI. But there hasn't been one lately, so that info is also a bit outdated
08:28<WargH>Ok, I'm currently browsing the forum also. I always thought the AI in ttdpatch was pretty good in some ways, just needed a few tweaks.
08:29<WargH>But I'll just start trying them out. I will most likely just play with the graphics that come along with Openttd
08:29<@planetmaker>That makes it easier as most AIs will then have less problems.
08:30<@planetmaker>I'd start with admiralAI, cluelessplus, choochoo, OtviAI...
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08:32<WargH>So I guess several AI's can be present in the same scenario then?
08:33<@planetmaker>Just as advice: better have not one AI several times, but rather several AIs, each only once
08:33<@planetmaker>Simple reason: if they follow one algorithm they'd otherwise make very strong competition on themselves, which is usually not good for their performance
08:34<WargH>Thank you
08:34<@planetmaker>no problem
08:36<WargH>It's been a few years since I played now. I don't really know why, this is one of my all time favorite games.
08:38<WargH>First thing I noticed is that I've forgot how to set up signals properly. Can't remember which is which, so I have a little catching up to do. :)
08:41<@Terkhen>IIRC the signals are different in TTDPatch and OpenTTD
08:43<@planetmaker>yeah, path signals work differently
08:43<WargH>Ok, guess I can find gow they work on the Wikisite then
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08:52<@peter1138>our path signals are simpler :D
08:53<@planetmaker>true. Just put one where you are sure a train shall be able to stop.
08:55<@peter1138>i only miss the one-way non-waiting point thing
08:55<WargH>I mainly use them for stations and along the road for junctions ofc
08:55<WargH>But yesterday I didn't get it right
08:56<WargH>The icnomming trains thought there was no platform avaliable just because there was one train at the station already
09:01<@peter1138> < gotta love the daily mail... er... i mean hate
09:08<WargH>Hmm, I've just installed Openttd and haven't changed much. The platforms are up to 7 squares long. But I can't build the trains as long, just 8 wagons. If this is a default setting I find it a bit odd.
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09:11<@planetmaker>there's not such (short) limit on train length
09:11<@planetmaker>just add more wagons
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09:13<WargH>I wasn't allowed but I found the open for long trains in the settings. Just found it odd that defalt legnht for stations was longer than the trainlenght if that long trains wasn't checked.
09:13<@peter1138>planetmaker, mammoth_trains
09:14<@planetmaker>yes. but without you can attach more than 8 wagons...
09:14<@peter1138>hmm, true, it's 10
09:14<@peter1138>including the engine
09:14<@planetmaker>isn't that on by default either?!
09:14<@peter1138>which might be 8 wagons ;p
09:15<@peter1138>maybe he had an ancient config :D
09:15<WargH>I'll just make my stations shorter. :) I find it to be more challenging with the default lenght on trains. More trains and more stations and more complex networks to get the traffic flowing
09:16<WargH>Especially with loads of AI's building.
09:16<@peter1138>urgh, landscape destroying beats
09:17<WargH>hehe, but I like that they make it harder to build for me. It presents a challenge
09:19<@peter1138>i usually play for a bi
09:19<@peter1138>then hear the thud thud thud noises as they build
09:20<@peter1138>and then *WHAM* giant rail network mutilating the picturesqueness
09:21<@planetmaker>well. Few AIs are really good at train networks
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09:22<GreenFlash1986>hi guys
09:22<GreenFlash1986>i have a short question: where can i find the description fpr the ai's?
09:23<GreenFlash1986>in which file/website or something like this, for copying to a .txt file
09:24<@Rubidium>you mean main menu -> ai settings -> list available AIs isn't good enough?
09:24<@Rubidium>you could try "openttd -h" from the console
09:24<GreenFlash1986>yep, because there i have to copy it manually
09:25<WargH>I know the AI is bad at building but I still like it. Makes me have to think harder to get good solutions because of them being in the way. :)
09:26<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21831 /trunk/src/timetable_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4414]: service orders for trains/aircraft would (sometimes) not get a time when autofilling
09:27<GreenFlash1986>Rubidium: looks nice, but is not enough information in my opinion
09:28<GreenFlash1986>where does the game look for the information about the ai?
09:28<WargH>The OTVI-AI builds way to many vehicles per station at least. :)
09:28<@Rubidium>GreenFlash1986: it calls the AI to provide it with a string
09:29<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21832 /trunk/src/timetable_cmd.cpp: -Feature: limit vehicle lateness to the length of a full timetable cycle, e.g. when a cycle takes 50 days and the vehicle is 65 days later reduce the lateness to 15 days
09:29<GreenFlash1986>Rubidium: what? you mean the game first downloads it and the it calls the ai?
09:41<@Rubidium>oh, you're talking about what is shown in the downloadable content window?
09:41<@Rubidium>that it gets from the server
09:41<GreenFlash1986>is there a way to get it manually?
09:41<@Rubidium>if you want that you have to implement the protocol or modify OpenTTD to spit it to the console
09:41<GreenFlash1986>argh -.-
09:41<GreenFlash1986>maybe i can sniff the network traffic
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09:41<supermop>hello again
---Logclosed Tue Jan 18 09:41:32 2011
---Logopened Tue Jan 18 09:41:43 2011
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09:41-!-Irssi: #openttd: Total of 117 nicks [9 ops, 0 halfops, 2 voices, 106 normal]
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10:31<WargH>Do I have to reinstall the game if I want to change language?
10:31<__ln__>Absolutely not.
10:32<dihedral>zou select another language in the game settings
10:33<WargH>Ah, ofc, stupid me. I went to advanced settings to check
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11:06<@Belugas>SELECT * FROM GAME_SETTINGS where language = another
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11:13<Eddi|nichZuHause>whats the command to switch keyboard layout in linux
11:14<@Rubidium>cd $kernel_src && vim $right_file && make install && reboot ?
11:14<@Rubidium>to be honest I have no clue; never needed to switch keyboard layout
11:15<@Rubidium>I've plugged an azerty keyboard in once, but just used it as qwerty and that went fine
11:15<Eddi|nichZuHause>yeah, thats my problem right now, too :p
11:17<Eddi|nichZuHause>easier one: whats the magic in irssi to open a second server window
11:17<Eddi|nichZuHause>and where on qwerty is the dam apostrophy and questionmark
11:17<SpComb>there's the console keyboard, the X keyboard, and ...
11:17<Eddi|nichZuHause>SpComb: console
11:18<SpComb>dpkg-reconfigure console-data
11:18<SpComb>more than that I don't even know :P
11:18<Eddi|nichZuHause>SpComb: there really must be something like keyb gr on dos...
11:20<Ammler>vim /etc/sysconfig/keyboard
11:21<SpComb>but what's the underlying kernel mechanism..
11:22<Eddi|nichZuHause>SpComb: that seemed to have worked
11:22<Eddi|nichZuHause>although i have no clue what it actually did
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11:23<Eddi|nichZuHause>who the hell designs a live-antivirus-cd and doesn't put anything on it to give you something to do while waiting...
11:24<Eddi|nichZuHause>apparently they used a knoppix, but stripped the graphical subsystem and stuff
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11:26<SpComb>apparently `loadkeys`
11:26<Eddi|nichZuHause>the least they could do is put some random crazy minigames on it
11:26<SpComb>sudo aptitude install bsd-games :P
11:28<SpComb>but ubuntu doesn't ship the keymaps in the default location
11:28<Eddi|nichZuHause>SpComb: package does not exist :p
11:28<SpComb>loadkeys -d can't find them
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11:28<SpComb>Eddi|nichZuHause: bsdgames
11:29<SpComb>but e.g. debian has /usr/share/keymaps/i386/qwerty/fi.kmap.gz
11:29<SpComb>so I guess that's where they come from
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11:46<DanMacK>Hey all
11:47<@SmatZ>hello DanMacK
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12:20<Mazur>Another rare element.
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12:21<ZirconiumX>A weak one - but an element nonetheless
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12:21<ZirconiumX>It's Elementary, Dear Mazur. :P
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12:22<Mazur>You forgot the "My".
12:22<Mazur>And he never said it.
12:23<Eddi|nichZuHause>lots of things were not actually ever said...
12:23<Eddi|nichZuHause>"beam me up, scotty"
12:23<Eddi|nichZuHause>"me tarzan, you jane"
12:24<supermop>"beam me up, tarzan"
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12:26<ZirconiumX>"You know," said Arthur, "it's at times like this, when I'm trapped in a Vogon airlock with a man from Betelgeuse, and about to die of asphyxiation in deep space that I really wish I'd listened to what my mother told me when I was young."
12:26<ZirconiumX>that's never been said
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12:29<@peter1138>pretty sure somebody's said those lines...
12:30<ZirconiumX>The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy - is at the end of the day a book
12:31*ZirconiumX had no idea there was a plutonium guy here, so hides in nuclear shelter
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12:31<DanMacK>A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
12:31<DanMacK>That, is my favourite line from the whole series :)
12:32<ZirconiumX>Whatever happens, happens
12:32<ZirconiumX>Whatever happens, causes something else to happen
12:32<ZirconiumX>Whatever happens, that causes something else to happen, causes something else to happen
12:33<ZirconiumX>Like that for instance
12:34*ZirconiumX is playing virtual lottery - and is bankrupt :(
12:34<@Terkhen>virtually bankrupt?
12:35<ZirconiumX>not real life
12:35<ZirconiumX>Net: -$490
12:35<ZirconiumX>out of 520 dollars played
12:35<ZirconiumX>5 virtual years playing
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12:36<@Terkhen>those lottery expenses sound very realistic
12:37<ZirconiumX>I'm in the UK - I wouldn't play dollars - anyway 19.03846153846154 years playing - and I'm still bankrupt
12:38*ZirconiumX won't gamble when I'm older
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12:43<ZirconiumX>50 years playing - For every 1 DOLLAR you wagered you have won 32.98076923076923 cents. Not bad, Not good
12:44<@Rubidium>damn... something must be wrong with me then
12:45<@Rubidium>all money I've invested in gambling has resulted in exactly 0 cents
12:45<ZirconiumX> Try your hand at virtual gambling
12:45<ZirconiumX>It's virtual
12:48<bb10>Is it possible to use console commands on a client?
12:48*ZirconiumX has received a telegram from the queen - and ummm... still isn't rich
12:49<@Terkhen>bb10: I'm not sure if it is what you want, but check "help rcon" on the console
12:50<bb10>ah yes rcon, thanks :)
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12:53<Mazur>The excerpt on hte Universe is not too bad, either.
12:53<Mazur>Import: None.
12:53<Mazur>Exports: None.
12:53<Mazur>Life: None.
12:54<ZirconiumX>I like this bit from HGttG
12:54<ZirconiumX>Earth: Mostly Harmless
12:55<ZirconiumX>hitchhiker is one word
12:55<Mazur>Linguistically, ideed, but common usage...
12:56<Mazur>So: Yes, you're right.
12:57*ZirconiumX does silly dance around Mazur, sticking tongue out at frequent intervals
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12:58<ZirconiumX>160 years playing - still not rich
13:00-!-Guest705 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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13:01<ZirconiumX>Excerpt: ...meteorological and psychological problems of the Universe except his own, three times over," and compose a number of lullabies. He seemed to find this last task the hardest...
13:03<@Rubidium>would you please start #hhgttg and start copying the book from the beginning there?
13:04*ZirconiumX gets book
13:04<dihedral>/whois ZirconiumX
13:04<dihedral>* [ZirconiumX] @#hhgttg #openttd
13:05<dihedral>some people really click on everything
13:05<dihedral>or follow every "advice"
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13:10<dihedral>ZirconiumX, while holding ctrl+alt+prt Sc, type s u b
13:11*ZirconiumX would love to - except I don't have a print screen buutton
13:11<dihedral>then use the one that says "SysRq" instead
13:12<ZirconiumX>that doesn't exist either
13:12<@Rubidium>hammer time!
13:12<@Rubidium>might help the keys to rearrange to get prtsc ;)
13:14<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21833 /trunk/src/ (genworld.cpp openttd.cpp saveload/saveload.cpp): -Fix [FS#4427]: desync debug savegames might not be actually saved in case threading is enabled, which is enabled by default
13:15<ZirconiumX>no - seriously - I use an apple keyboard (old - not the new-fangled aluminium one) - which doesn't use a sysrq button - or a prtsc one either
13:15<dihedral>oh true - he's on a mac is he not?
13:16<dihedral>darn ^^
13:16<ZirconiumX>even if I did have one - I'm not sure it would know how to use it - and the fact that it uses a PS/2 connector
13:17<ZirconiumX>even if I did do that - all the pranks you've played recently makes me distrustful
13:17<ZirconiumX>and the darn bit doesn't help either
13:18<dihedral>i never played a prank
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13:25<Prof_Frink>ZirconiumX: It's one word, two words or hyphenated, depending on how you're feeling at the time.
13:26<Prof_Frink>Also, the original is better than the book.
13:28<ZirconiumX>I think your second point is a matter of opinion - besides I don't have the original.
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13:30*ZirconiumX punches the Prof stoutly in the face, destroying his glasses and the transectoplasmo-whatever he has in his hand
13:30<Mazur>I first came across it as the Dutch radio play.
13:32<Prof_Frink>*Dutch* radio play? That's going to be rather mad.
13:32<ZirconiumX>Excerpt: ... International success...
13:33*ZirconiumX punches the Prof again
13:33<Prof_Frink>You're not very nice.
13:33*ZirconiumX washes hands of results
13:34<@Rubidium>nah, I'm a dictator according to some third party sources
13:36<Prof_Frink>Also, Rubidium, Zirconium(X)... Is this #period5?
13:36<Prof_Frink>/nick Molybdenum
13:36<ZirconiumX>We had a Plutonium leave
13:37<@Rubidium>no, I'm not having a period
13:37<Prof_Frink>Bloody actinides.
13:37<ZirconiumX>*** Plutonium quit ()
13:37<dihedral>Rubidium, do you have a timeframe for me?
13:37*ZirconiumX is causing a reaction
13:37<dihedral>i.e. beta4 tonight, tomorrow morning, ...
13:38<@Rubidium>more towards friday-ish
13:38<dihedral>oh - perfect :-)
13:39<dihedral>either i'll manage to upload something tonight (after 12) or before fr.
13:39<dihedral>but i'll send you a pm if i manage it, then you need not check the task ;-)
13:40<@Rubidium>I probably have notification enabled for that task
13:40<dihedral>ah, ok - perfect
13:40<@Rubidium>so I'll probably get a popup before the "comment added" page is rendered for you
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13:40<dihedral>then i can go to my friend this evning and watch a movie :-)
13:41*ZirconiumX ..... :p
13:41<@Rubidium>it's actually serious. If I close a bug report my email's popup begins before my browser has had a chance to render the html
13:42<dihedral>i get emails on my phone before they show up on my computer which slightly worries me ;-P
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r21834 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: hungarian - 4 changes by IPG
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: japanese - 151 changes by kokubunzi
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: serbian - 1 changes by etran
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: ukrainian - 4 changes by Fixer
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14:05<ZirconiumX>hullo Lord Aro
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14:36<ZirconiumX>What is the NoAI API function for conditionally skipping? if (whatever) ?
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>squirrel syntax is mostly the same as c++ syntax
14:37<ZirconiumX>so yes?
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>so "if (condition) { do_something(); } else { do_other_thing(); }"
14:38<@Alberth>if (!whatever) { ... }
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15:05<@Belugas>mmh. 1979
15:05<@Belugas>good music was made then
15:07<CIA-2>OpenTTD: smatz * r21835 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: use UpdateStatusAfterSwap() instead of copying the same code three times
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15:14<@planetmaker>good evening
15:14<DanMacK>Hey pm
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15:15<@SmatZ>hello planetmaker
15:30-!-tycoondemon [] has quit []
15:40<CIA-2>OpenTTD: smatz * r21836 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix: when a train was reversed while inside a tunnel/bridge, it wouldn't have (re)set the GOINGUP/DOWN bits after leaving the tunnel/bridge
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16:04<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
16:08<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21837 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix [FS#4419]: LMB dragging would switch over to other viewports instead of staying locked to the viewport you started on
16:09<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21838 /trunk/src/viewport_gui.cpp: -Change: allow LMB scrolling with the mouse outside of the extra viewport instead of canceling scrolling when going slightly over the edge
16:10<LordAro>planetmaker: that needs changing - admin network ;)
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16:28<CIA-2>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r21839 /trunk/ ( projects/determineversion.vbs): -Change: Support tags created by git-svn for the revision detection.
16:28<CIA-2>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r21840 /trunk/ ( projects/determineversion.vbs): -Change: Support tags created by hgsubversion for the revision detection.
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16:29<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21841 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs): -Feature: [NewGRF] Allow to define other railtypes that should be introduced if a particular rail type is introduced, e.g. to make sure slow rail is introduced when fast rail gets introduced
16:31<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21842 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs):
16:31<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Feature [FS#4393]: [NewGRF] Introduction dates/required types for rail types;
16:31<CIA-2>OpenTTD: e.g. introduce a particular rail type in 1960 (or when a vehicle using it is
16:31<CIA-2>OpenTTD: introduced), but also allow limiting its introduction to only happen when the
16:31<CIA-2>OpenTTD: required railtypes are available
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16:35<@planetmaker>hm... I should work on SER again
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16:41<@Terkhen>hola andythenorth
16:41<andythenorth>que tal?
16:41<@Terkhen>bien, y tu? :)
16:42<andythenorth>yo habla un pequeno de espanol
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16:44<__ln__>había #openttd-es antes, pero no estaba tanta gente allí
16:46<@Terkhen>IIRC there was some demanding guy in that channel that I wanted to avoid
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16:47<__ln__>the one who wrote without any accents?
16:49<@Terkhen>that could apply to most spanish speakers through chat
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16:51<__ln__>'lestat' was the nick possibly
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>i wouldn't bother with umlauts either if they weren't one single key...
16:53<@Terkhen>good memory, I think you are right :)
16:53<__ln__>actually i cheated a bit with google
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16:56<@Terkhen>good night
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16:58<LordAro|3>night Terkhen, and everybody else
16:58<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21843 /trunk/src/ (7 files): -Codechange: move documentation towards the code to make it more likely to be updates [t-z].
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17:04<__ln__>so what eventually happened with Germany and Google Streetview?
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17:08<Eddi|zuHause>afair it started in select cities, but they had to extend the period where people can ask to have their house pixelated
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>and they had a huge scandal about sniffing open wlan connections, which then extended worldwide
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>oh, and there was some guy who searched pixelated houses, took a photo of them, and put them online :p
17:10<__ln__>that's innovative
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>well, it's perfectly legal (as long as you don't enter private property to take the photo)
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>(it doesn't count if you get permission to enter the private property. the photo must be taken from a public place)
17:16<SpComb>you have something to hide!?
17:17<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21844 /trunk/src/ (16 files): -Codechange: move documentation towards the code to make it more likely to be updates [a-c].
17:18<__ln__>after what was said in the media, i was under the impression that there are no streetviews of germany, but then one day i found Bochum.
17:20<@planetmaker>oh there is. Just a a few (or a few more) pixel-ated houses
17:30<@planetmaker>good night
17:31<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21845 /trunk/src/ (22 files): -Codechange: move documentation towards the code to make it more likely to be updates [d-m].
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17:38<dihedral>"to be updates" -> "to be updated" ?
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18:09<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21846 /trunk/src/ (24 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: move documentation towards the code to make it more likely to be updated [o-s].
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18:11-co_kluarmain:#openttd-join the club
18:11<co_kluarmain>elite botnet
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18:12<dihedral>Rubidium, can i split into a handfull of patches?
18:12<dihedral>well - i assume you can always compine them again :-P
18:13<@Rubidium>yes, as long as they compile and are logical
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19:03<dihedral>good night
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20:32<bb10>Rubidium: about this:
20:33<bb10>the license doesn't allow you (as a user) to decompile/reverse engineer etc whatever is on steam, but who in his right mind would reverse engineer something that is open source? xD
20:33<bb10>also, there are several open source games on steam.
20:35<bb10>Aquaria, Arx Fatalis and probably some others that I don't know about
20:36<bb10>Penumbra Overture and Gish too
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20:36<@SmatZ>does steam modify those games?
20:36<@SmatZ>also, opensource != GPL'd
20:37<@Yexo>arx fatalis is gpl, but only since 14 jan 2011
20:37<bb10>steam does not compile those games
20:37<@SmatZ>there may be a problem, that if they modify the source, they also have to publish those modifications done
20:37<@Yexo>aquaria's source was released as gpl on june 3, 2010
20:37<bb10>they do not modify it
20:38<@Yexo>while it was uploaded to steam at december 15, 2008
20:38<@Yexo>all dates according to wikipedia
20:38<bb10>they get binaries and upload them.
20:38<bb10>Yexo: correct
20:38<@SmatZ>both games I played (portal and trackmania nations) looked modified
20:38<@SmatZ>because they were interacting with steam
20:38<bb10>portal is a Valve game
20:39<@Yexo>bb10: even if you "just" distribute the binaries, you still have to comply to the licence
20:39<bb10>the license is for users
20:39<@Yexo>in fact I don't think you're allowed to distribute the binaries without distributing the source also (or a written offer for the source)
20:39<@Yexo>no, the license is for everyone
20:40<@SmatZ>simply, the licence of "openttd distributed over steam" has to be GPL-compatible, which excludes "can not modify the code"
20:40<bb10>it's a binary
20:40<@SmatZ>licensed under GPL
20:41<@Yexo>steam is only allowed to distribute the openttd binary if they either A) also distribute the source or B) provide a written offer for the source code
20:41<bb10>Yexo: what?
20:41<bb10>Yexo: they don't get the source code
20:41<bb10>they get binaries and upload them
20:42<@Yexo>they're not allowed to upload openttd binaries without also providing the source or a written offer for the source
20:42<bb10>you can add the source code if you want in a separate folder
20:42<@Yexo>if someone (steam included) wants to distribute openttd, they have to comply to the GPL
20:42<@SmatZ>bb10: the primary problem is that if steam's EULA says "you can not modify anything downloaded via steam", it violates OpenTTD's license, and so it can't be distributed over steam
20:43<@Yexo>which means you can't put additional restrictions on it (like: "you're not allowed to modify / reverse engineere it")
20:43<bb10>though, the real question is, will they allow this free game on steam
20:43<@Yexo>no, the question is will they modify their subscriber agreement for it (answer almost for certain: no)
20:45<bb10>"without the prior consent, in writing, of Valve." <- they could put that on the store page
20:46<@SmatZ>;a=blob;f=COPYING openttd's licence
20:48<@Yexo>could be, but I'm not sure if that's legally a valid construction
20:49<@Yexo>you could argue they'd still put a restriction on it: "you're not allowed to modify it without our permission, which you get here" sounds like they could revoke that permission at any time
20:49<@SmatZ>well, at least here, if the license isn't in the czech language, it's void
20:49<@SmatZ>(so it uses some "default" license given by law)
20:50<@Yexo>how does that work for gpl software?
20:50<@SmatZ>I wonder :)
20:50<@Yexo>not in czech -> no valid licence -> no right to use the software?
20:50<@SmatZ>there is official czech translation of GPL somewhere
20:50<@SmatZ>but hardly anything is distributed with translated version of GPL
20:50<@Yexo>sure, but that translation is not delivered with the product
20:56<bb10>"In addition to the game, Valve will also release the complete code base for Alien Swarm."
20:56<bb10>They released an open source game themselves. :P
20:56<@SmatZ>bb10: under what license?
20:57<bb10>no sure
20:57<@SmatZ>well, the copyright owner can still provide closed-source binary for steam and GPL'd version for download
20:58<@SmatZ>so it will work with steam's license
20:58<bb10>and that is not possible with Openttd?
20:59<@Yexo>no, because there are a lot of people who own part of the copyright, and we won't be able to find them all to ask for permission to distribute a closed-source binary via steam
20:59<bb10>aren't all binaries closed source?
21:00<@Yexo>ok, change that to "to ask permission to distribute a non-gpl licensed binary via steam"
21:00<bb10>a binary can be licensed under gpl?
21:01<@SmatZ>software is licensed under GPL
21:01<@Yexo>why not? you'll just have to also provide the source code
21:02<bb10>the source code is already provided :P
21:02<@Yexo>the one distributing the binary has to provide the source too (or a written offer to provide the source)
21:03<bb10>would a link to the source on the store page be good?
21:04<@Yexo>note however that providing the source isn't really the issue why openttd is not on steam
21:04<@Yexo>steams user agreement is a far bigger problem
21:04<@SmatZ>bb10: you, as the steam's subscriber, have agreed to NOT COPY and NOT MODIFY the software you downloaded via steam, which is NOT COMPATIBLE with OpenTTD's license, so OpenTTD CAN NOT be distributed via steam
21:04<@SmatZ>what you don't understand there?
21:05<bb10>you forgot the end of the sentence
21:05<bb10>"without the prior consent, in writing, of Valve." <- they could put that on the store page
21:05<@Yexo>that would imply that they have a right to revoke that consent, which they don't
21:05<bb10>You can copy, modify etc this bla bla
21:06<@Yexo>but IANAL
21:06<bb10>me neither :P
21:06<@SmatZ>"without the prior consent, in writing, of Valve." <== unless it means you have to ask for a written permission :)
21:07<@Yexo>bb10: it's basically the same problem as all mobile phone app stores have with gpl products
21:07<bb10>Not if the consent is already (in writing) on the store page.
21:07<@Yexo>just google for "app store gpl" or anything like it and you'll find plenty of explanations
21:09-!-fjb [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:09<@Yexo> <- basically read this
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21:13<bb10>hmm yes
21:13<bb10>but they do not have the consent thing
21:13<bb10>and they only allow you to download it on 5 devices
21:18<@SmatZ>Yexo: nice link :)
21:18<@Yexo>I remember last week someone posted a link with a comparison also of other phone stores, but I can't find it anymore
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---Logclosed Wed Jan 19 00:00:32 2011