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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-01-19

---Logopened Wed Jan 19 00:00:33 2011
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02:13<@Terkhen>good morning
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02:14<@Terkhen>bb10: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=895831#p895831
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02:33<@Terkhen>I don't see the point anyways
02:33<@Terkhen>they get no benefit and neither do us
02:33<@Terkhen>as you can always add openttd to steam as an external game
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02:41<@Rubidium>really... how hard is the steam subscribed agreement to read. Only "you may not .... create derivative works based on ... any software accessed via Steam without prior consent of Valve" tells me enough. If accessed via Steam you're not allowed to modify it, GPL says you must not be disallowed to modify it. Clashing licenses -> OpenTTD isn't getting on Steam
02:42<@Rubidium>and yes... you can change the license for Steam, but that isn't going to happen
02:44<@peter1138>heh
02:48<@planetmaker>moin
02:50<@planetmaker>he... steam... is nothing else than hot water and air ;-)
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02:58<@Terkhen>:)
03:07<dihedral>good morning
03:17<dihedral>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4426 <- can this be done easily?
03:17<dihedral>a little switch somewhere to simply mute / unmute sound on that event would probably be useful - yet i am not sure how simple it could be
03:18<@Rubidium>dihedral: as easily as 4420
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03:25<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21847 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4423]: slowing down of trains was done by reducing the speed by 10%, but also when you're just 1% too fast, so limit the slowdown till the new maximum speed
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03:42<dihedral>is there nothing event like that could get executed when the window is minimized?
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03:57<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: such an event could easily be added, i'm sure
03:58<Eddi|zuHause><planetmaker> he... steam... is nothing else than hot water and air ;-) <-- well, you also need some crystalisation core, otherwise steam would be invisible
03:59<@planetmaker>no
03:59<@planetmaker>you only need that for condensation. Steam is by definition the gas phase of water. No crystallization cores needed
04:00<@planetmaker>it might also be visible due to the different fractive index of the hat water vapour
04:00<@planetmaker>*diffractive
04:00<@planetmaker>like where hot air is rising from a heater you see that, too
04:00<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i know what you mean ;)
04:02<@planetmaker>:-)
04:13<dihedral>what if the air has the same temperature as the water?
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04:15<@planetmaker>it would not change a thing
04:15<@planetmaker>it'd still be steam ;-)
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04:18<dihedral>Rubidium, are those enough patches for you :-)
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04:19<andythenorth>bonjour
04:22<dihedral>hello
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04:38<Eddi|zuHause>i still wonder how the opengfx people managed to make their maglev track look even more ugly than the original
04:38<Eddi|zuHause>it's an almost impossible task...
04:38<@peter1138>hehe
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04:55<@Terkhen>heh, yet another power plant discussion
04:55<andythenorth>meh
04:55<@Terkhen>and it's following the usual pattern :)
04:55<andythenorth>heh
04:55*andythenorth introduces some truly *horrible* clipping problems into FISH
04:56<@Terkhen>even bigger ships?
04:56<andythenorth>slightly bigger than the current biggest
04:56<@peter1138>tea clipper?
04:56<andythenorth>hah
04:59*andythenorth works on BabyTypes
04:59<andythenorth>but not yet on NewBabyTypes
05:00<@Terkhen>are you thinking on improvements to the original BabyTypes spec?
05:01<andythenorth>there are possible improvements, but the implementation would be baroque
05:01<andythenorth>tmwftlb
05:01<@Terkhen>:D
05:01<andythenorth>might as well stick with the current spec
05:01<andythenorth>it's the best available in the circumstances :P
05:01<@Terkhen>:)
05:02<andythenorth>if we wanted to improve BabyTypes, it would be best to start from scratch
05:02<andythenorth>some of the legacy details are unhelpful
05:03<andythenorth>Terkhen: rv-wagons?
05:03<@Terkhen>hmm... yes, I should do some work on that
05:03<andythenorth>did we make a repo?
05:03<andythenorth>let me see
05:04<@Terkhen>no, but I'm not sure a repo is needed for now
05:04<@Terkhen>we should start by unifying stuff between vehicle types
05:04<andythenorth>did we finish the spec?
05:04<@Terkhen>I made a note to start with articulated part handling
05:04<@Terkhen>we decided what parts of the train spec we would need, but IIRC nothing was written
05:05<andythenorth>I have an irc transcript, but no document
05:06<@Terkhen>I was bored, so it is a good moment to start looking at the Artic functions to see how they can be unified
05:06<andythenorth>hmm
05:06<andythenorth>the baby just woke up
05:06<andythenorth>I'll see if I can copy our transcript into a document today
05:06<@Terkhen>okay :)
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05:23<andythenorth>Terkhen: spec is not very advanced :P
05:23<andythenorth>http://pastebin.com/iUwgtj79
05:23<@Terkhen>heh
05:24<@Terkhen>yes, we will need something more clear :)
05:26<andythenorth>a table of cbs and varaction 2s?
05:26<andythenorth>showing which are implemented and which are needed?
05:26<@Terkhen>that would be good, yes :)
05:26<andythenorth>I can start on that
05:26<andythenorth>I'll just make a text file
05:26<andythenorth>unless you're happy editing html?
05:27<andythenorth>I hate wiki formatting so I'm not doing it there :P
05:27<@Terkhen>IIRC we needed some kind of action0 flag, right?
05:27<@Terkhen>a text file is fine for now
05:27<andythenorth>we did need a flag
05:27<andythenorth>it was to allow some behaviour if set IIRC
05:27<andythenorth>was it to explicitly allow attachment?
05:28<andythenorth>it was to enable cb 1D
05:28<@Terkhen>well... the problem was the default behaviour
05:28<andythenorth>which would be ignored if not enabled
05:28<andythenorth>IIRC, the thinking was
05:28<@Terkhen>by default, road vehicles shouldn't attach or let any other vehicles attach to them
05:28<andythenorth>yup
05:28<andythenorth>then action 0 enables CB1D
05:28<andythenorth>CB1D default return value is 'allow attach'
05:29<andythenorth>unless player chooses to handle it explicitly
05:29*andythenorth wonders if that's possible :o
05:29<@Terkhen>hmm? allowing the player to attach anything?
05:29<andythenorth>yup
05:29<@Terkhen>I don't think it's desirable
05:30<andythenorth>it would be very irritating to a newgrf author to have to explicitly handle 1D for every vehicle
05:30<andythenorth>trains don't have this issue :(
05:30<andythenorth>default=attachable makes sense for trains
05:30<andythenorth>no legacy problems there
05:30<andythenorth>hmm
05:31<andythenorth>let me write a spec
05:31<andythenorth>it will make more sense
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06:23<@peter1138>hmm, how can i set the timeout for connect() ?
06:23<andythenorth>planetmaker: oil pipelines would be better as a hack on roadtypes
06:23<andythenorth>no signals needed
06:24<andythenorth>weird two-way flow arrangement possible :P
06:26<Eddi|zuHause>crazy idea: a "subway" roadtype where you can set vehicles travelling on it to not collide with vehicles not running on it
06:26<@peter1138>(everything i look up says "use nonblocking i/o" which isn't really the same thing)
06:26<@peter1138>hmm
06:27<Eddi|zuHause>(collide as in get blocked by)
06:28<@peter1138>((okay, apparently you have to check yourself))
06:29<Eddi|zuHause>(imagine "subway" as in "underground tram". same non-blockyness could be used for overhead-monorail)
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06:35<andythenorth>only collide with vehicles of same roadtype?
06:42<SpComb>peter1138: what connect()?
06:43<SpComb>peter1138: the connect() syscall doesn't have a timeout, you need to do a non-blocking connect() and then select() on it with your timeout
06:43<SpComb>peter1138: after that you can go back to blocking I/O
06:44<@peter1138>well, not quite that simple
06:44<@peter1138>because that assumes you're doing nothing else in that time period :)
06:44<@peter1138>i have just set up a timer and which closes the connection
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06:55<SpComb>well, that assumes that you're using threads..
06:55<SpComb>event loops have their own timeout mechanisms
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07:38<@peter1138>bleh, threads :p
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08:42<dihedral>glx, i am jealous
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08:48<dihedral>i want a public ipv6 address too :-P
08:50<FauxFaux>sixxs.
08:50*bb10 pets FauxFaux
08:54<dihedral>i said i want a public ip not a proxy :-)
09:02<+glx>dihedral: my ISP uses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv6_rapid_deployment
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09:06<@Belugas>hello
09:06<supermop>hi
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09:12<z-MaTRiX>hey-ho
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09:59<Wolf01>hello
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10:35<ZirconiumX>hello
10:35<ZirconiumX>#periodfive returns
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10:44<ZirconiumX>@logs
10:44<@DorpsGek>ZirconiumX: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd
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11:15<Eddi|zuHause>we really don't need to know when your period comes...
11:18<ZirconiumX>It's a joke referring to Prof_Frink's comment yesterday
11:19<@planetmaker>yeah, his comments usually are quite on-topic
11:19<@planetmaker>just as yours :-P
11:22<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21848 /trunk/src/ (cargopacket.cpp cargopacket.h): -Codechange: unification of comment style for cargopacket.*
11:25<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21849 /trunk/src/ (cargopacket.cpp cargopacket.h): -Codechange: move merging/splitting of cargopackets into a helper function (fonsinchen)
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>go on there. you're on the right track. :p
11:28<@Rubidium>you mean break cargodist patchability even more?
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>yes. up to the point where there's nothing left to break :p
11:30<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21850 /trunk/src/network/ (network.cpp network.h network_client.cpp network_client.h): -Codechange: move password hashing to a more general location (dihedral)
11:30<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: nah, too much things need to be fixed/tested for that to happen
11:30<@Rubidium>like loads of coding style
11:31<Eddi|zuHause>aww
11:31<@Rubidium>and documentation stuff
11:32<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21851 /trunk/src/network/ (network.cpp network_client.cpp network_client.h): -Codechange: rename NetworkClientSetPassword to NetworkClientSetCompanyPassword (dihedral)
11:33<@Rubidium>got some 34K of diffdiff with coding style hints/changes/things that aren't clear
11:35<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21852 /trunk/src/network/ (network.cpp network.h network_client.cpp): -Codechange: generalise GenerateCompanyPasswordHash (dihedral)
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11:37<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21853 /trunk/src/network/ (5 files): -Codechange: HashCurrentCompanyPassword is only used by servers, so move it to network_server.* (dihedral)
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11:42<@Rubidium>dihedral: 05 fails to compile without 06
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11:53<dihedral>oh :-( i am sorry about that
11:54<@Rubidium>email's slow today
11:54<dihedral>05 should have worked, i thought, as 06 was merely the implementation in comsole_cmds
11:54<@Rubidium>but in 05 you change the signature of a function used in console_cmds.cpp
11:54<dihedral>oh crap
11:55<dihedral>sorry about that
11:55<dihedral>and thanks for the commits :-)
11:56<dihedral>anything i can do for beta5? :-P
11:57<@Rubidium>fix any of the bugs at bugs.openttd.org?
12:01<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21854 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: refactor the password setting methods to make it possible to change the password of other companies (on the server)
12:02<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21855 /trunk/src/console_cmds.cpp: -Feature [FS#4368]: [Network] Console command to change the password of other companies for servers (dihedral)
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12:11<CIA-2>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r21856 /trunk/ (findversion.sh projects/determineversion.vbs): -Fix (r21840): Don't fail tag detection on hg repositories that use mercurial queues. Add some safety against tags and branches with spaces as well.
12:11<CIA-2>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r21857 /trunk/ (findversion.sh projects/determineversion.vbs): -Add: Revision detection for hgsubversion repositories.
12:13*planetmaker wonders whether it now seems quite opportune to install hgsubversion locally ;-)
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12:15<@Terkhen>how does it work?
12:16<@Terkhen>can you do anything with mercurial over a subversion repository?
12:19<@planetmaker>I'll have to find out :-)
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12:20<@planetmaker>http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/HgSubversion
12:22<@planetmaker>and http://mercurial.aragost.com/kick-start/en/hgsubversion/ possibly also
12:23*Terkhen reads
12:23<@Terkhen>thanks for the links :)
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12:23<@planetmaker>well, had them open just at the moment :-)
12:28<@Terkhen>for me the only advantage seems to be easier and faster committing
12:28<@Terkhen>and that can lead to mistakes
12:29<@planetmaker>I agree.
12:29<andythenorth>hmm
12:30<@planetmaker>one other might be that you can pull the svn tags and build them (now) with the proper version info / string. Possibly
12:30<andythenorth>what a lot of bits are free for water tiles :o
12:30<andythenorth>how interesting...
12:30<@planetmaker>shooo shooo! back to road types you goooo ;-)
12:31<@planetmaker>(I know, very bad rhyme ;-) )
12:31<andythenorth>was wondering if watertypes would be a better way to do pipelines
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12:32<andythenorth>was thinking about vehicle behaviour, not about liquids per se ;)
12:32<@planetmaker>vehicle: small | medium | big oil blob
12:32<@planetmaker>crash behaviour: oil spill
12:32<@planetmaker>so it needs also new disasters... ;-)
12:34<andythenorth>hmm
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12:57*DanMacK waves
12:57<@SmatZ>evning
12:58<@Rubidium>hmm, you must be very high if I can see you wave ;)
13:00*ZirconiumX tsunamis
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>stupid cat. this is MY chair.
13:01<ZirconiumX>...while Eddi|zuHause curses his cat.
13:01<@Terkhen>from his point of view it is probably his chair
13:02<ZirconiumX>get another chair, with casters on - so you can push the cat out of the rooom
13:02<@Rubidium>Terkhen: no, it's his/her Throne
13:02<@Terkhen>:D
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>from her point of view, it's probably a flat area that's slightly more elevated and slightly more soft than the others. both of which are benefiting factors for using it.
13:03<andythenorth>cats are just cussed
13:03<ZirconiumX>Cats need a hill to survey the area - we already have one - it's called our legs
13:04<andythenorth>she's doing it to beat you
13:04<@Terkhen>cats just like to take whatever they think you might need
13:04-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B6A8.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>yeah. typically the space directly in front of your feet.
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>or your food.
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>or your sitting/sleeping places
13:05<andythenorth>meh
13:05<andythenorth>power lines / pipelines :P
13:05*andythenorth proposed unitised cargo packet transport
13:06<andythenorth>e.g. routes that have shift n units p tiles per second
13:06<andythenorth>have -
13:06<andythenorth>and don't need vehicles
13:06<@Terkhen>as long as your cats don't learn to steal your laundry... mine did
13:07<@Rubidium>you taught it wrong... the cat shall do your laundry
13:07<@Terkhen>I don't think that's even remotely possible :P
13:07<ZirconiumX>I once saw a cat that did a poo inside (strike one
13:08<@planetmaker>I fear it'd lead to "the cat oversees you doing her laundry", Rubidium ;-)
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>oh. cats love to oversee stuff.
13:09-!-Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd
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13:09<andythenorth>open pipeline tycoon!
13:09<andythenorth>deluxe
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>and every step you do, like put up new furniture, gets thoroughly inspected
13:09<andythenorth>OPTD!
13:10<andythenorth>open pipeline, powerline, ski-lift, ropeway, cable car, travelator and conveyor belt tycoon!
13:10<@Terkhen>:D
13:11<@Rubidium>otldr ?
13:11<andythenorth>I am 35% serious :P
13:11<andythenorth>?
13:12<ZirconiumX>andythenorth: nope OPPSLRCCTCBT
13:12<@Rubidium>"open too long didn't read"
13:12<@Rubidium>or
13:12<@Rubidium>"open too long don't remember"
13:12<@Rubidium>like the digits of pi; too long, don't remember
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>3,1415926535898tldr?
13:13<andythenorth>is there any map space for a new transportation type?
13:13<@Terkhen>are you planning a vehicleless transportation type?
13:13<@planetmaker>it needs a new tile type and could be done, I guess
13:13<andythenorth>I'm not sure
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think there are unused tile types, but the trouble starts when crossing with existing types
13:14<andythenorth>I think it actually might need vehicles (for player and/or implementation sanity)
13:14<ZirconiumX>open absolutely nothing tycoon OANT
13:14<andythenorth>but all vehicles on a line are connected together
13:14<@planetmaker>powerlines are known to never cross streets and rails.
13:14<andythenorth>and they have to have the same orders
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>or bridges/tunnels, which should reuse the existing tiles
13:14<andythenorth>and they all hold 1t
13:15<andythenorth>or 1pax etc
13:15<@Rubidium>1t of electrons sounds like quite a lot
13:15<andythenorth>hmm
13:15<@planetmaker>uh...
13:15<andythenorth>1 electron
13:15<@planetmaker>quite
13:15<andythenorth>1 photon
13:15<@planetmaker>sounds like a significant fraction of all atoms in the universe ;-)
13:15<andythenorth>1 quantum packet
13:16<DanMacK>Possibly carry megawatts instead?
13:16<andythenorth>each vehicle is a quantum packet :P
13:16<ZirconiumX>24t of batteries
13:16<@planetmaker>look at it and it decays...
13:16<andythenorth>if you entangle two of them, then check the cargo amount on one of them, the other instantly unloads :P
13:16<@planetmaker>and you never know where it is...
13:16<andythenorth>no you do, but not quite
13:16<andythenorth>and the cat dies :P
13:16<ZirconiumX>Invisible cargo - 24tonnes of something
13:16<@planetmaker>and if you know where it is, you don't know how fast and where it travels... it's a total mess ;-)
13:17*andythenorth is worried now about the cat?
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13:18<@Rubidium>oh, only roughly 10^33 electrons
13:19<@planetmaker>if you take the square of it, it's probably larger than the number of atoms in the universe ;-)
13:19<@planetmaker>(or my memory is faulty)
13:19<andythenorth>yeah but is the cat ok?
13:19<andythenorth>someone measure the cat :P
13:20<@Rubidium>planetmaker: wolfram says 10^80
13:20<@planetmaker>did you ever try that on one? It might be hard ;-)
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: but only a small amount of electrons in the hull are actually free
13:20<@planetmaker>well, then be it 10^80. I recalled 10^52 ;-)
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>it's not even 30 orders of magnitude... who cares :p
13:21*andythenorth wonders if this idea might actually be possible :P
13:21<andythenorth>dumb as it is
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>a separate pipe/power/otherwise continuous transport type?
13:22<andythenorth>yes
13:22<@planetmaker>@calc (13*10**9 * 10**16)**3
13:22<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 2196999999999999946875349976678663849588536635279061293249460890373123263692800
13:22<@planetmaker>hm... not a handy number :-P
13:22<andythenorth>that could also support things like bucket ways
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>conveyor belt
13:23<andythenorth>and conveyors
13:23<nicfer1>hmmm, maps bigger than 1024x1024 are unjoinable for my internet connection
13:23<andythenorth>I can think of some problems :O
13:23<nicfer1>1mbit/s down
13:24<andythenorth>for continuous transport, simply using vehicles seems to take care of actually moving the cargo
13:24<andythenorth>but they'd need to all take the same orders
13:24<andythenorth>and it's a non-intuitive way to add capacity
13:24<@planetmaker>10**52 is too low. ^ above number gives 10**78 - and the average density of the universe is higher than the inter-galactic gas which is 1 atom / m**3
13:24<andythenorth>and removing them to destroy the route would be odd
13:24<andythenorth>they'd all have to go to depot :P
13:25<__ln__>Inter-Galactic Tycoon Deluxe
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>damn... i don't have this song...
13:26<andythenorth>limiting the route would be quite easy: make it impossible to build junctions
13:27<andythenorth>but how many stations are possible is an interesting question
13:27<andythenorth>per route
13:28-!-fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc1ada.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
13:29<@Rubidium>fonsinchen: have fun with http://rbijker.net/openttd/cd.diff (found --ignore-space-at-eol in git diff)
13:30<fonsinchen>:)
13:30<Xaroth_>a diff on a diff?
13:30<fonsinchen>looks indeed funny.
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13:42<CIA-2>OpenTTD: terkhen * r21858 /trunk/src/ (articulated_vehicles.cpp train.h vehicle.cpp vehicle_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: Give more similar names to ArticulatedPart functions.
13:43-!-X-2 [~X-2@5ED662EB.cm-7-7b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd
13:43<CIA-2>OpenTTD: terkhen * r21859 /trunk/src/ (ground_vehicle.hpp train.h): -Codechange: Move train subtype flags to GroundVehicle.
13:44<CIA-2>OpenTTD: terkhen * r21860 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Rename road vehicle subtype functions to match the train names.
13:44-!-Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has quit [Quit: bbiab]
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r21861 /trunk/src/lang/ (japanese.txt spanish.txt ukrainian.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: japanese - 92 changes by kokubunzi
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: spanish - 52 changes by Terkhen
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: ukrainian - 2 changes by Fixer
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14:08<ZirconiumX>hello Alberth
14:08<@Alberth>hi ZirconiumX
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14:15<dihedral>oi
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>http://i.imgur.com/HVHlD.jpg
14:16<dihedral>HAHA
14:16<dihedral>awsome
14:16<bb10>LOL
14:17<dihedral>vcs.openttd.org <- 504 Gateway Time-out
14:18<Xaroth_>no issue here
14:18-!-andythenorth [~andy@cpc9-aztw25-2-0-cust133.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
14:19<andythenorth>is it done yet :P
14:19*andythenorth starts filing annual tax return
14:19<andythenorth>what larks
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>the food was delicious, yes.
14:20<andythenorth>I'm still worried about the cat
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>there's more where that came from :p
14:24<Hirundo>fonsinchen: I noticed something (bug?) in cargodist
14:25<jonty-comp>CONUNDRUM TIME
14:25<Hirundo>When multiple vehicles are loading, the loading indicator jumps to 100% instantly
14:25<jonty-comp>I set up a 1.0.5 server on a development server at work
14:25<jonty-comp>but the external firewall doesn't let it through
14:26<jonty-comp>for some reason tunneling localhost:2979 to remote localhost:3979 works in ubuntu on my laptop, but not in windows
14:26<jonty-comp>*3979
14:27<jonty-comp>as in doing ssh jonty@dev1.ext.blah -L 3979:localhost:3979 works fine when I do openttd -n localhost
14:27<jonty-comp>but doesn't when I do it through putty
14:28<fonsinchen>Hirundo: That's expected, the vehicle will still take the usual time to load the cargo
14:29<fonsinchen>The 100% indicate that all the cargo has been reserved for that vehicle
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14:30<Hirundo>Isn't it more useful to show the actual cargo count instead of the reserved amount?
14:32<fonsinchen>If I'd show the actual amount then someone would complain that the cargo disappears from the station before the vehicle loads it.
14:33<@planetmaker>eh?
14:34<fonsinchen>The reservations work differently in cargodist. If cargo is reserved for a vehicle it's actually removed from the station and stored in a temporary cache at the vehicle
14:34<@planetmaker>Why is loading changed to default loading behaviour?
14:34<@planetmaker>where it also gradually loads?
14:34<fonsinchen>This saves a lot of CPU time as we don't have to recheck all the packets in each loading cycle
14:34<Hirundo>So there are three lists: station, vehicle and a temporary cache in-between?
14:34<fonsinchen>Yes
14:35<@planetmaker>wouldn't it make sense to just add a 'reserved' indicator to the packets at the station?
14:35<fonsinchen>Also it's much more accurate like this as the planned/sent numbers are immediately updated when moving the packets to the cache
14:35<fonsinchen>Then I'd still have to loop over them every turn
14:35<@planetmaker>how does that deal with a skip-order command?
14:35<Hirundo>But stuff also has to work when CD is disabled, right?
14:36<fonsinchen>It moves the packets in the reservation cache back if the vehicle leaves the station
14:36<@planetmaker>also it 'feels' buggy to basically make the loading indicators deprieved of their function
14:36<fonsinchen>Everything works the same except for the loading indicators
14:36<@planetmaker>well. But they're rendered un-functional
14:37<@planetmaker>which many people will (IMHO correctly) complain about
14:37<fonsinchen>I can change that. You'll have to live with cargo disappearing before being loaded then, though.
14:37<@planetmaker>and how is it handled, if I send the train away before it is completely loaded?
14:37<fonsinchen>The packets are moved back
14:37<fonsinchen>to the station
14:37<@planetmaker>hm
14:38<@planetmaker>so it has an impact on station rating as well
14:38<fonsinchen>how?
14:38<@planetmaker>as the rating with cargodist will be 'better' as cargo is moved earlier
14:38<@planetmaker>thus the average cargo waiting is lower
14:39<fonsinchen>yes, that's probably the case.
14:39<@planetmaker>and what is the actual performance impact of this change?
14:39<@planetmaker>in PU on test games?
14:39<@planetmaker>*CPU
14:39-!-ar3k [~ident@87-239-75-101.internetia.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:40<Hirundo>Can't you store the reserved cargo somewhere in the station, so it still counted there?
14:40<fonsinchen>I don't know anymore. But that was one of the changes with most impact on performance.
14:40<@Alberth>or continue searching where you stopped the last time?
14:41<@planetmaker>^ good idea :-)
14:41<@Alberth>may be less trivial than it sounds :)
14:41<fonsinchen>Hirundo: Then I'd have to keep a map of vehicle to cargo and that would need to be looked up and iterated over.
14:41<fonsinchen>I have tried that.
14:42<@Alberth>you can move the cargo, and just add some count of 'cached elsewhere' at the station
14:42<fonsinchen>Don't forget that the question if a packet is to be loaded into some vehicle may be answered a different way in subsequent loading turns
14:42<@planetmaker>fonsinchen: what about just adding the vehID to the station cargo packets?
14:42<fonsinchen>depending on the sent/planned numbers
14:43<fonsinchen>One of the worst performance problems was the constant looping over lots of cargo packets
14:43<@Alberth>you currently also dont consider changing destinations between loading turns
14:44<fonsinchen>Alberth: This can only happen if you manually change the orders. I assume that this will happen sufficiently rarely.
14:45<Hirundo>Even if that does happen, you can always redo the reservations if it's really needed
14:46<fonsinchen>I cannot guarantee that the cargo really arrives at the place where it wants to go. You could as well skip an order while the vehicle is already on its way. So I don't consider manual changes at all.
14:46-!-ar3k [~ident@87-239-75-101.internetia.net.pl] has joined #openttd
14:47*Zuu seriously question the need for OTTDAU to be adapted to allow selection of 64-bit OpenTTD. It's not like OpenTTD will be limited by the 2 GB mem limit?
14:48<Zuu>So until OTTDAU become available in 64 bit, I don't really see the point of doing any re-working to support 64bit downloads.
14:48<Hirundo>Stations already have a list of loading vehicles, perhaps it's possible to maintain a list of reservation lists in the same way
14:48<fonsinchen>I can extend the loading indicators to show two numbers in case something is reserved for the vehicle
14:48<Hirundo>So the cargo is still accessible by the station and can be counted there
14:49<Hirundo>tbh, as player Joe I don't care about reservations and whatnot
14:49-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B6A8.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO]
14:49<Hirundo>as a side note, player Joe doesn't understand all advanced settings either
14:51<@planetmaker>Player Joe rather understands very few settings only ;-)
14:52<fonsinchen>btw, Station::days_since_pickup is not updated until the cargo is really loaded
14:52<fonsinchen>so the argument about station ratings is probably wrong.
14:53<@planetmaker>station rating depends on the amount waiting, too
14:53<@planetmaker>and that was my argument
14:54<@planetmaker>not any pickup time :-)
14:54<fonsinchen>With cargodist you have more cargo waiting at most stations most of the time
14:54<fonsinchen>so I think we can accept it to be a little forgiving there.
14:55<@planetmaker>yes, probably. I'm rather worried about the perceived GUI bug with the wrong loading indicators.
14:56<@planetmaker>Personally I quite like to see them change as they give me an indication on how busy the station is, whether I need more / less trains
14:56<fonsinchen>As I said I can just show both numbers. Joe average won't have that many reservations anyway.
14:56<@planetmaker>another interface, numbers will be confusing. Just make them work with cargodist the same way :-)
14:56<Hirundo>That'd be a misfeature IMO
14:57<@planetmaker>I mean... don't you move the cargo into the train the same way, be it from the station or cache?
14:57<@planetmaker>So... can't then the train load state be used the same way?
14:58<fonsinchen>Of course I can show the "real" loading number, if you want that.
14:58<@planetmaker>that's what it does now. So yes, of course
14:58<fonsinchen>But that means the loading indicator is not in sync with the station GUI anymore
14:58<@planetmaker>it's a loading indicator for the train. Not the station
14:59<fonsinchen>Well, then... I'll do it like that.
15:00<Hirundo>Is it possible to combine the station itself and the reservation lists into one list in the station GUI, to show the 'good' number there also?
15:00<@planetmaker>gui_cargo = station_cargo + temp_cargo_cache?
15:01<fonsinchen>I don't want to search all the reservation lists when assembling the source-via-destination view in the station gui
15:01<fonsinchen>It would be horribly complicated.
15:04<CIA-2>OpenTTD: terkhen * r21862 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Unify subtype handling between road vehicles and trains.
15:05*DanMacK has tried Cargodist, but never can transport the passengers for instance
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>DanMacK: there's a passenger reduction patch
15:05<Hirundo>fonsinchen: Mind if I post some 'average Joe observations' to the forum topic?
15:05<DanMacK>or they want to go to some out of the way village services by buses...
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: what if you show the "about to load" cargo in a different list?
15:06<ar3k>hm
15:06<ar3k>somethings wrong with 21861 build
15:06<ar3k>tranis load over 100%
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: although i don't really see what's the problem
15:07<fonsinchen>Hirundo: go ahead
15:07<fonsinchen>Eddi|zuHause: where should I show that? In the station GUI somewhere?
15:08<ar3k>300 tons of coal in 30t wagon
15:08<ar3k>rotfl
15:09*ABCRic wonders off to compile before that issue is fixed
15:09<ABCRic>*wanders
15:09<fonsinchen>DanMacK: Passengers will try to go to all reachable destinations, the amounts depend on the sizes of the villages and towns and on the distances between them.
15:09<fonsinchen>The amounts don't depend on the quality of your service.
15:10<Wolf01>WTF? vehicles loading 158% and 163% o_o
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: maybe it needs some feedback? cargo that is routed through congested links reduce the generation of new cargo for their destination?
15:11<ar3k>yeah
15:11<ar3k>Wolf01 ^^
15:13<fonsinchen>Eddi|zuHause: I have avoided that on purpose as cargodist should give you the extra challenge to get the cargo where it wants to go.
15:13<Wolf01>141 passengers in a 50 passengers coach :o
15:13<Wolf01>looks like the Milano-Bologna route
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: that sounds perfectly realistic :p
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15:14<Eddi|zuHause>maybe Rubidium made som mistaks merging fonsinchens code?
15:15<Wolf01>my steel trains don't think so :P
15:15<Wolf01>they can barely move :o
15:17*DanMacK may have to play with a recent build to try again
15:20<fonsinchen>21857 doesn't have the problem
15:20-!-z-MaTRiX [~matrix@coming.soon.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:20<fonsinchen>Or at least I don't see it
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15:24<Wolf01>I'm using r21861
15:24-!-DDR [~DDR@d142-179-76-217.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd
15:24<Wolf01>maybe it's related to grfs
15:24<Wolf01>or with the cargo multiplier
15:24<Wolf01>I use 5x
15:24<dihedral>ouch
15:25<DanMacK>5X is nothing...
15:26*DanMacK has played with 20 on occasion
15:26<DanMacK>not recently though
15:26<dihedral>exactly, not recently ;-)
15:30<Wolf01>with 5x I need to use 2-3 engines to move a 10 tiles long steel train
15:31<ar3k>i dont use anything like that
15:31<ar3k>and still
15:31<ar3k>on some trains i get over 300 ton of coal
15:31-!-z-MaTRiX [~matrix@coming.soon.it] has joined #openttd
15:31<Wolf01>1750 tonnes of steel on a train
15:32-!-z-MaTRiX is now known as Guest850
15:34<ar3k>where i can find this cargo multiplier ?
15:34<fonsinchen>Eddi|zuHause: btw, the generation of cargo is actually reduced if a lot of cargo is waiting. With the "external ratings" the ratings of the source stations drop then and reduce cargo generation.
15:34<ar3k>Wolf01 :>
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: i haven't tried in a while. i was just making theoretical thoughts
15:35<fonsinchen>It works quite well. I have done quite a few experiments with different ways to reduce the cargo piling and like this it's quite nice.
15:36<Wolf01>ar3k: vehicles->trains->weight multiplier
15:36<ar3k>k
15:37<ar3k>thanks
15:39<@Rubidium>fonsinchen: is happens in r21857 as well
15:39<fonsinchen>Interesting ... not with cargodist though.
15:40<ABCRic>cargo loading - 0%, 48%, 58%, 238%
15:40<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21863 /trunk/src/cargopacket.cpp: -Fix (r21849): load the amount that should be loaded instead of the amount that should not be loaded
15:41<Xaroth_>heh
15:41<Xaroth_>overloaded!
15:42<@Rubidium>fonsinchen: probably because you completely ditched that function
15:43<dihedral>hehehe
15:44-!-Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d086237.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
15:45<fonsinchen>Well, that function was probably not very well tested ... :/
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15:54<dihedral>i may not laugh - i had a bad patch too :-P
16:07<fonsinchen>The loading indicators show the "real" amount now.
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16:59<andythenorth>good night
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17:03<Pulec>who is czech here?
17:03<Pulec>btw is there a list of recommended settings?
17:03<Pulec>i mean i always turn on realistic train physics
17:03<Wolf01>all on
17:03<Pulec>lol
17:03<Pulec>and i mainly mean generating map
17:04<Pulec>the default seems just too much cities and industry
17:04<@planetmaker>yes. it's recommended to use those which give a map which you like
17:04<Pulec>on a bigger mapper with less players many are being closed, but thats not the case
17:04<Pulec>its the difficulty
17:04<Pulec>i think its better to build less train routes and organize them properly
17:04<Pulec>over time it gets supper complex
17:05<@Terkhen>good night
17:05<Pulec>and i dont really like goal servers
17:05<Pulec>gn european man
17:06<@planetmaker>Pulec: new industries will also open again, so don't bother with them closing.
17:06<@planetmaker>those who you service well, won't close.
17:06<Pulec>i know that
17:06<@planetmaker>(unless you play with newgrfs, then it might happen, depending upon them and their parameters)
17:07<Pulec>but that was only on huges maps, like 2kx1k and two players
17:07<Pulec>i dont use newgrf much
17:07<Pulec>but i could use some recommended list
17:07<@planetmaker>just play around with the map settings. I use terragenesis, low towns, mountains and high variability
17:07<@planetmaker>medium water
17:07<@planetmaker>but that's me.
17:07<Pulec>i like mountains
17:07<@planetmaker>But... I need to go to bed, too, so good night here, too :-)
17:08<Pulec>its much nicer then
17:08<Pulec>good nood night european man
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19:03<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21864 /trunk/src/station_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4430]: distant-join station would build at the wrong location when having persistent building turned on and selecting a "second" location for the station tile
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19:31<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Thu Jan 20 00:00:34 2011